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scissors
08-18-2013, 08:54 PM
Per the all-time all defense team thread I had a lot of trouble figuring out who the best SF defender was in their best seasons. I'm talking about SFs, not people who can guard SF but play other positions (Rodman, Jordan, etc).

I listed a bunch in the poll but please nominate anybody I may have missed.

ThuglifeJ
08-18-2013, 09:03 PM
Pippen, Artest always impressed me most. Bowen if he didnt undercut ankles

Grant Hill should make poll not Iggy

tredigs
08-18-2013, 09:24 PM
Pippen, Artest always impressed me most. Bowen if he didnt undercut ankles

Grant Hill should make poll not Iggy

Iggy's a better defender than Bird was. Hill too.
Tough to say for sure because I haven't seen enough games from those Celtics, but Hondo was seen as one of the great defenders of the time.

All around give me Scottie.

MrfadeawayJB
08-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Pippen. Could be LeBron eventually, but for now pippen

mrblisterdundee
08-18-2013, 10:27 PM
Pippen, Artest always impressed me most. Bowen if he didnt undercut ankles

Grant Hill should make poll not Iggy

Grant Hill's up there, but injuries derailed him so much. I'd put LeBron James in. His defense is a big part of why he'll be considered one of the greatest ever. And he can defend every position, no matter his opponent.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 10:31 PM
Easily Pippen.

THE MTL
08-18-2013, 10:32 PM
I think LeBron deserves more credit on defense and should eventually win the award. But right now I have to go with Artest. He made defense famous.

JasonJohnHorn
08-18-2013, 11:44 PM
Even Larry Bird is laughing at the fact his name is on this list. Other forward looked forward to facing Bird on defence. He was smart, gaurded the passing lanes well, but one-on-one, he couldn't get it done very well. He made up for in smarts what he lacked in speed and athleticism,but he was still to slow to slow down great offensive players.

Depending on who you count as a small forward, it depends. There seem to be few players from before the turn of the century (Bird and Pipper, that's it). No players from the 70's or 60's.

The Big O played some small forward and he was considered an elite defender by all his peers, though he is more seen as a point guard (he was like LBJ, not in style, but in the fact that he transcended positions).

LBJ is likely he most versatile defender because he can guard any position, but Artest was a better one-on-one defender.

For peek, I'll go with Artest, but Bowen was amazing as well, but I won't argue with any selection here other tan Bird. Anybody who selects Bird here clearly didn't see him play one-on-one defence.

TrueFan420
08-18-2013, 11:57 PM
Even Larry Bird is laughing at the fact his name is on this list. Other forward looked forward to facing Bird on defence. He was smart, gaurded the passing lanes well, but one-on-one, he couldn't get it done very well. He made up for in smarts what he lacked in speed and athleticism,but he was still to slow to slow down great offensive players.

Depending on who you count as a small forward, it depends. There seem to be few players from before the turn of the century (Bird and Pipper, that's it). No players from the 70's or 60's.

The Big O played some small forward and he was considered an elite defender by all his peers, though he is more seen as a point guard (he was like LBJ, not in style, but in the fact that he transcended positions).

LBJ is likely he most versatile defender because he can guard any position, but Artest was a better one-on-one defender.

For peek, I'll go with Artest, but Bowen was amazing as well, but I won't argue with any selection here other tan Bird. Anybody who selects Bird here clearly didn't see him play one-on-one defence.
Um no he can't. He can guard a stretch four for a little, cant play 4 for a season, but he can't handle a center in the post with a good back to the basket game.

Lebron is great but come on people dude can't do everything.

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 11:58 PM
how the **** is Bird on this list hahaha

85BearsDefense
08-19-2013, 12:00 AM
Pippen and it's really not close

TheNumber37
08-19-2013, 12:11 AM
Lebron wont ever surpass Pippen as best wing defender, who does Lebron have to guard? KD, Melo... a few Pgs and bigs.

LBJ6
08-19-2013, 12:24 AM
Lebron not even close.

LBJ6
08-19-2013, 12:26 AM
Lebron wont ever surpass Pippen as best wing defender, who does Lebron have to guard? KD, Melo... a few Pgs and bigs.
Yes and so much more offensively gifted player, so who does Pippen guarded?

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:31 AM
Yes and so much more offensively gifted player, so who does Pippen guarded?

Offense has nothing to do with this. Lol

Pippen was a huge factor in Jordan's first ring. His defense on Magic is what truly turned the series around for the Bulls.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:31 AM
That and the injury to Worthy.

Chronz
08-19-2013, 01:00 AM
But Bird was an All-League defender....

Chronz
08-19-2013, 01:04 AM
Offense has nothing to do with this. Lol

Pippen was a huge factor in Jordan's first ring. His defense on Magic is what truly turned the series around for the Bulls.
I do think he defended him the best (tho Magic was awful when open anyways) but Mike was the guy who checked Magic for most of the series so how could Pippen have been the "TRUE" series changer?

amos1er
08-19-2013, 01:08 AM
I do think he defended him the best (tho Magic was awful when open anyways) but Mike was the guy who checked Magic for most of the series so how could Pippen have been the "TRUE" series changer?

Game 2. Must win for the Bulls. Jordan was in early foul trouble and Pippen took Magic out of the game.

Kyben36
08-19-2013, 01:12 AM
Pippen and Lebron for the top 2, others dont even matter, IMO, I still think Lebron is an over rated defender, has been ever since he started blocking shots on the fast break, that said, he is a great defender, arguably top in the league, currently pippen has him beat though, but I think by the end of his carear, most will say lebron.

lol, please
08-19-2013, 01:14 AM
Larry the legend Bird never gets respect on PSD.

Chronz
08-19-2013, 01:34 AM
Game 2. Must win for the Bulls. Jordan was in early foul trouble and Pippen took Magic out of the game.

I dont buy the must win talk but even if it were true, you really going to ignore the rest of the series in favor of a single stretch of play early in the series?

Ebbs
08-19-2013, 01:57 AM
Honestly it's LeBron or Pippen for what they could do all around.

But I think if we're talking peer perimeter defense. He's not gonna have to guard 4's, or 1's. The task is to play pure perimeter defense and get under the skin of the opposing player I'd say Bowen.

Minimal
08-19-2013, 10:47 AM
Its Pippen or LeBron, not any other. Artest was only great at defense during his Indiana days.

jericho
08-19-2013, 11:00 AM
My list would be

1.Pippen
2.Artest
3.Iggy
4.Lebron
5.Bowen
6.Prince
7.Hill
8.Bird

todu82
08-19-2013, 11:03 AM
Scottie Pippen

bagwell368
08-19-2013, 11:41 AM
Larry the legend Bird never gets respect on PSD.

That's ridiculous.

Also I saw Bird play more in person and on TV than maybe 1-2 people here, and I can tell you that he worked hard on D, he had great anticipation for passes, shots, and the timing to go after shaky dribbles he could get his hand on. That was before 1987. He could play good man on a guy like Bobby Jones, but the top 8-10 SF's? He worked hard to try and hold his own, but that was as far as he got. After 1986, his foot speed started to decline and after his back problems he was a shell - except that his defensive rebounding was always great, and he could still steal a pass, and play that one foot in the paint half zone D of his.

McHale who is classified as a PF, actually played D against the other teams SF if he was a better offensive force than the PF, and McHale was a much greater defender than Bird as such, never mind against low post scorers who Bird really couldn't contend with, but McHale could. For the PF side of things McHale along with KG and TD and Hakeem come to mind as players that could in their prime guard at least 3/5's of the leagues players. Bird is nowhere near that. Pippen and Cooper could guard about half the league on the SF/SG/PG side of things and Larry Bird could not do that.

scissors
08-19-2013, 12:43 PM
Its Pippen or LeBron, not any other. Artest was only great at defense during his Indiana days.

The question is regarding "peak". So Artest's peak is what he should be judged on.

kdspurman
08-19-2013, 12:46 PM
Eh, I tend to think Lebron's defense gets overrated at times. I think it's Pippen here, and I'd probably take Bowen next, a guy who's sole job was to shut down/frustrate opposing teams best player game in and game out.

PurpleLynch
08-19-2013, 01:33 PM
Pippen or Artest at their peak were the best.Dunno who wins anyway,but voted Artest.After them:Bowens,Bird,Lebron,Iggy,Havlicek,Baylor,Worth y.

slashsnake
08-19-2013, 01:35 PM
bowen really did frustrate Melo pretty well.

Dave Debusshere, Rodney McCray was pretty good.

I personally would have to go with Pippen.

Minimal
08-19-2013, 01:46 PM
The question is regarding "peak". So Artest's peak is what he should be judged on.
Ah missed that one, my bad.
I'm gonna go by the numbers then and say Pippen in 1993-1994 season. He had DRTG of 97 and was first in DRTG from the whole team, 2nd was Corie Blount who was at 100, that says a lot about Pippens defense. He commanded teams defense.
Artest in 2003-2004 was 3rd in DRTG on a team with 96, behind Jermaine O'Neal, who had 93. I guess it benefited real great for Artest to have Jermaine on the floor at the same time.
LeBron was great in 2011-2012 season too, 3rd in DRTG from the team with 97, behind only Mickell Gladness and Ronny Turiaf, who barely played.

valade16
08-19-2013, 01:48 PM
Can we please stop with the "LeBron can defend every position, no matter his opponent." talk already?

LeBron got absolutely destroyed by Roy Hibbert's post game. Does anyone here want to see what would happen if Bron had to guard KAJ, Hakeem, or Shaq?

mjm07
08-19-2013, 01:57 PM
Eh, I tend to think Lebron's defense gets overrated at times. I think it's Pippen here, and I'd probably take Bowen next, a guy who's sole job was to shut down/frustrate opposing teams best player game in and game out.

do you think he's defensively overrated or are you just tired of people saying how good he is? Not attacking just curious to know.

Pippen has to be the of best SF defenders, if not defender in general of all time. Bowen as well. Bowen guarded the 1-3 position effectively. Lebron goes without saying and Larry Legend is definitely top 5.

PIPPEN
LBJ
BIRD
BOWEN
ARTEST

kdspurman
08-19-2013, 02:09 PM
do you think he's defensively overrated or are you just tired of people saying how good he is? Not attacking just curious to know.

Pippen has to be the of best SF defenders, if not defender in general of all time. Bowen as well. Bowen guarded the 1-3 position effectively. Lebron goes without saying and Larry Legend is definitely top 5.

PIPPEN
LBJ
BIRD
BOWEN
ARTEST

I think he's overrated defensively. I mean he's improved a lot from his early years, but I think he gets overrated. I don't think he should've been All NBA first team for example, when there are other guys who are specialist at defending the other teams best players the majority of the game. But who he is gives him that advantage over other guys who might have been more deserving.

People love the chase down blocks, and gambling for steals leading to dunks, and I think the media tends to make his defense seem much better than it really is. I think he's a really good defender, and has certainly come a long way from his earlier days. I just don't think he's as good as some people make him out to be, and I personally would pick (from this list) Pippen, Bowen, & Artest before him. Lebron (& the heat in general) are known for coasting at times, so while he can turn it up a notch if need be, he's not consistently that lock down great defender enough for me. You have guys who are constantly going hard on defense, and maybe because he has so much responsibility on offense he can't expend all his energy. But that shouldn't take away from other guys who are doing it night in and night out.

(Btw, Bowen guarded 1-4 depending on some nights as well)

That's just my opinion

mjm07
08-19-2013, 02:23 PM
I think he's overrated defensively. I mean he's improved a lot from his early years, but I think he gets overrated. I don't think he should've been All NBA first team for example, when there are other guys who are specialist at defending the other teams best players the majority of the game. But who he is gives him that advantage over other guys who might have been more deserving.

People love the chase down blocks, and gambling for steals leading to dunks, and I think the media tends to make his defense seem much better than it really is. I think he's a really good defender, and has certainly come a long way from his earlier days. I just don't think he's as good as some people make him out to be, and I personally would pick (from this list) Pippen, Bowen, & Artest before him. Lebron (& the heat in general) are known for coasting at times, so while he can turn it up a notch if need be, he's not consistently that lock down great defender enough for me. You have guys who are constantly going hard on defense, and maybe because he has so much responsibility on offense he can't expend all his energy. But that shouldn't take away from other guys who are doing it night in and night out.

(Btw, Bowen guarded 1-4 depending on some nights as well)

That's just my opinion

Fair enough and I agree with the bold.

Pluvious
08-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Eh, I tend to think Lebron's defense gets overrated at times. I think it's Pippen here, and I'd probably take Bowen next, a guy who's sole job was to shut down/frustrate opposing teams best player game in and game out.

Yeah, Bowen getting the shaft. Agree with you...Pippen and then Bowen. Coincidence the Spurs were winning titles when Bowen was playing elite defense and now they aren't winning titles? Nope.

All-In
08-19-2013, 03:17 PM
I think he's overrated defensively. I mean he's improved a lot from his early years, but I think he gets overrated. I don't think he should've been All NBA first team for example, when there are other guys who are specialist at defending the other teams best players the majority of the game. But who he is gives him that advantage over other guys who might have been more deserving.

People love the chase down blocks, and gambling for steals leading to dunks, and I think the media tends to make his defense seem much better than it really is. I think he's a really good defender, and has certainly come a long way from his earlier days. I just don't think he's as good as some people make him out to be, and I personally would pick (from this list) Pippen, Bowen, & Artest before him. Lebron (& the heat in general) are known for coasting at times, so while he can turn it up a notch if need be, he's not consistently that lock down great defender enough for me. You have guys who are constantly going hard on defense, and maybe because he has so much responsibility on offense he can't expend all his energy. But that shouldn't take away from other guys who are doing it night in and night out.

(Btw, Bowen guarded 1-4 depending on some nights as well)

That's just my opinion

Yea but when push comes to shove he guards the opposing teams best offensive threat…who guarded Tony Parker on the more critical possessions…TP avg 15.7PPg on 41% shooting against the heat…against MEM, a pretty stout defensive team, he avg 24.5 on 53%....and in GM7 vs INDY when Lebron’s sole mission was to shut down George and not let him facilitate…..2-9 shooting for 7pts…George was avg 15 shots per game before game 7..in GM6 Wade was on George for most of the game…11-19 for 28PTS…I’m not saying he’s as good as Pippen or Artest or Bowen…but I defiantly don’t think hes overrated

BKdoubleStacker
08-19-2013, 03:17 PM
You did not watch Artest or Bowen play in the early 2000's if you put lebron above them.

smith&wesson
08-19-2013, 03:22 PM
rodman could defend and lockdown any position. so put him on the poll and ill vote for him.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:35 PM
rodman could defend and lockdown any position. so put him on the poll and ill vote for him.

Rodman was a PF...

kdspurman
08-19-2013, 03:37 PM
Yea but when push comes to shove he guards the opposing teams best offensive threat…who guarded Tony Parker on the more critical possessions…TP avg 15.7PPg on 41% shooting against the heat…against MEM, a pretty stout defensive team, he avg 24.5 on 53%....and in GM7 vs INDY when Lebron’s sole mission was to shut down George and not let him facilitate…..2-9 shooting for 7pts…George was avg 15 shots per game before game 7..in GM6 Wade was on George for most of the game…11-19 for 28PTS…I’m not saying he’s as good as Pippen or Artest or Bowen…but I defiantly don’t think hes overrated

He's a really good defender like I said, I just don't think he's All Defense 1st team worthy, or the best perimeter defender in the game which is what many feel he is.

Goose17
08-19-2013, 04:07 PM
Bruce Bowen deserves a mention in this discussion, without a doubt.

Difficult to answer because Lebron's career isn't over yet, how do we know if he's reached his peak defensively?

I'm going to say;

- Pippen
- Bowen
- LBJ
- Shawn Marion
- Iggy


Marion is the pick most people will call me out on, but in his sophomore year (as a SF) he put up a DRtg of 93.40 which is higher than anything Pippen ever put up in a single season, so if we're judging them based on their peak, Marion's peak (of one year) is significantly superior to Pippens.

Stats are craaaaazy.

KingstonHawke
08-19-2013, 04:23 PM
Bird is not only on the list, but he got 3 votes? That's like affirmative action right? Because there's no way he deserves that spot.

abe_froman
08-19-2013, 04:26 PM
Bruce Bowen deserves a mention in this discussion, without a doubt.

Difficult to answer because Lebron's career isn't over yet, how do we know if he's reached his peak defensively?

I'm going to say;

- Pippen
- Bowen
- LBJ
- Shawn Marion
- Iggy


Marion is the pick most people will call me out on, but in his sophomore year (as a SF) he put up a DRtg of 93.40 which is higher than anything Pippen ever put up in a single season, so if we're judging them based on their peak, Marion's peak (of one year) is significantly superior to Pippens.

Stats are craaaaazy.
marion is very underrated defender(because of the team he played on),good call in naming him.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 04:36 PM
I dont buy the must win talk but even if it were true, you really going to ignore the rest of the series in favor of a single stretch of play early in the series?

I'm not ignoring it, I'm just pointing out that Pippen was the most successful at guarding Magic between him and Jordan. Also, in game 2 when the Bulls were in danger of possibly dropping their first 2 home games... Pippen took the Lakers best player completely out of the game.

MonroeFAN
08-19-2013, 04:49 PM
My vote is for Lebron.

jerellh528
08-19-2013, 04:52 PM
My top 3 are pippen, artest, iggy. I did not take into account any of their drtg because personally I feel that's a terrible way/stat to judge a player's defense

Bruno
08-19-2013, 05:29 PM
But Bird was an All-League defender....

three defensive second teams? hey, thats three more than Magic ever got :laugh2:

I just checked his stats and was VERY surprised to see that Larry Bird lead the NBA in regular season defensive win-shares on four separate occasions. what are your thoughts on defensive win-shares Chronz?

JasonJohnHorn
08-19-2013, 06:31 PM
That's ridiculous.

Also I saw Bird play more in person and on TV than maybe 1-2 people here, and I can tell you that he worked hard on D, he had great anticipation for passes, shots, and the timing to go after shaky dribbles he could get his hand on. That was before 1987. He could play good man on a guy like Bobby Jones, but the top 8-10 SF's? He worked hard to try and hold his own, but that was as far as he got. After 1986, his foot speed started to decline and after his back problems he was a shell - except that his defensive rebounding was always great, and he could still steal a pass, and play that one foot in the paint half zone D of his.

McHale who is classified as a PF, actually played D against the other teams SF if he was a better offensive force than the PF, and McHale was a much greater defender than Bird as such, never mind against low post scorers who Bird really couldn't contend with, but McHale could. For the PF side of things McHale along with KG and TD and Hakeem come to mind as players that could in their prime guard at least 3/5's of the leagues players. Bird is nowhere near that. Pippen and Cooper could guard about half the league on the SF/SG/PG side of things and Larry Bird could not do that.

This is spot on. I LOVE Bird and rank him higher than most people, and he was a VERY smart defender. Your analysis is SPOT on. But as much as I love him, and respect how smart he was as a defender, he just wasn't the defensive force that other guys on this list were. His steals average is misleading because he was a great team defender and amazing at anticipating a pass and guarding the passing lanes, and he knew how to position himself well... but he just wasn't a lock-down defender like these other guys.

I love a guy who can get a couple steals a game and create some fast break points, but I'll take a defender who gets a guy to shoot 5% below his season average than a guy who can get 2 steals a game.

JasonJohnHorn
08-19-2013, 06:34 PM
Um no he can't. He can guard a stretch four for a little, cant play 4 for a season, but he can't handle a center in the post with a good back to the basket game.

Lebron is great but come on people dude can't do everything.

I don't disagree with you entirely. I do think he is decent as guarding a guy in the post, but you are right. I didn't say he could guard every position at an all-star level, just that he could defend every position. He is versatile in that. He could pick up a PG or a PF (or C because I don't see much difference between a PF and a C). He is dominate at guard SG/SF, but he can do well on any position. There are FAR better post defender, yes, but LBJ can hold his own.

JasonJohnHorn
08-19-2013, 06:39 PM
Can we please stop with the "LeBron can defend every position, no matter his opponent." talk already?

LeBron got absolutely destroyed by Roy Hibbert's post game. Does anyone here want to see what would happen if Bron had to guard KAJ, Hakeem, or Shaq?

You are right... LBJ would get DESTROYED by Shaq in the post... but people aren't saying that he could defend like Hakeem or Dikembe in the post, merely that he can defend there. If you need him to go in the post to defend David West, he can spend some minutes there if you need to play small ball. He won't defend the post as well as Dwight, but he gives his coach some versatility.


Yes, he can guard EVERY position, though he doesn't do the C as well... but if you C is in foul trouble you can put LBJ there for a few minutes and he'll hold the fort down (unless it's Shaq).

So the argument is LBJ is awesome guarding the wing, but he is versatile and can defend other positions as well (though not as well). That is fair and it doesn't disagree with your observations (which are accurate).

smith&wesson
08-19-2013, 06:54 PM
Rodman was a PF...

ya and ? the question was who is the best sf defender. rodman defended the best player on the other team no matter what position.

so i stand by my statement. I vote for the guy who gaurded and locked down any player of any position.

TrueFan420
08-19-2013, 06:55 PM
I don't disagree with you entirely. I do think he is decent as guarding a guy in the post, but you are right. I didn't say he could guard every position at an all-star level, just that he could defend every position. He is versatile in that. He could pick up a PG or a PF (or C because I don't see much difference between a PF and a C). He is dominate at guard SG/SF, but he can do well on any position. There are FAR better post defender, yes, but LBJ can hold his own.
That's cause pf are smaller than ever. Yes he could gaurd a dlee type and not get punished but put him up against zbo and the pf of old and he gets abused. Same with center. Any player with a back to basket game at 4 or 5 will kill him. A face up player he can handle for short stretches.

lakersiznumber1
08-19-2013, 06:58 PM
Per the all-time all defense team thread I had a lot of trouble figuring out who the best SF defender was in their best seasons. I'm talking about SFs, not people who can guard SF but play other positions (Rodman, Jordan, etc).

I listed a bunch in the poll but please nominate anybody I may have missed.

dennis rodman was very good before he moved to power forward

bearadonisdna
08-19-2013, 07:21 PM
Its pretty clear PIPPEN is the far and away winner of the guys listed.

bagwell368
08-19-2013, 08:19 PM
do you think he's defensively overrated or are you just tired of people saying how good he is? Not attacking just curious to know.

Pippen has to be the of best SF defenders, if not defender in general of all time. Bowen as well. Bowen guarded the 1-3 position effectively. Lebron goes without saying and Larry Legend is definitely top 5.

PIPPEN
LBJ
BIRD
BOWEN
ARTEST

Read my earlier post, I'm a Celts fan since 1966 and Bird isn't even top 10. McHale when he functioned as a SF (which was often to shield Bird from all the tough scorerers) was a vastly better defender than Bird. It's unquestionable. Until you can go back in time and have seasons tickets at the old Garden, and go overall to ~200 Larry Bird games, and 85% of the rest of the games on TV you do not AFAIK posses the necessary viewing background to judge Bird as #3. Even Bird knows he wasn't #3 for crissakes.

bagwell368
08-19-2013, 08:23 PM
ya and ? the question was who is the best sf defender. rodman defended the best player on the other team no matter what position.

so i stand by my statement. I vote for the guy who gaurded and locked down any player of any position.

Much of Rodman's reputation/advanced stats is built on his defensive rebounding. Kevin McHale was a better on ball defender vs 3's and 4's in his prime than Rodman by a good measure - ask Barkley.

bearadonisdna
08-19-2013, 08:28 PM
I aways thought the Lebron guarded every position was kinda arbitrary. Like sure i could guard every position if the players im guarding are lesser than me.

bearadonisdna
08-19-2013, 08:31 PM
Say someone like durant, he could easily guard every position successfully if his coach babysat handpicked favorable matchups.

b@llhog24
08-19-2013, 08:51 PM
Bron Bron.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 09:06 PM
Bron Bron.

That was pretty Ghey I must say. Lol

b@llhog24
08-19-2013, 09:10 PM
That was pretty Ghey I must say. Lol

Calling a grown man a snake doesn't exactly earn you any street cred either Jethro.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 09:16 PM
Calling a grown man a snake doesn't exactly earn you any street cred either Jethro.

Perhaps... But it was still worth it.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 09:21 PM
Seriously, there are people on this site who will vote for Lebron no matter what. How does he have 21% of the vote on this one. Come on people. Better defender than Pippen???

DaLakerz Rulz
08-19-2013, 09:23 PM
Seriously, there are people on this site who will vote for Lebron no matter what. How does he have 21% of the vote on this one. Come on people. Better defender than Pippen???

Either those people didn't watch the game much back then, or they have just forgotten with time. It always happens. He is the best all-around player in the game now so it is to be expected I guess.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 09:26 PM
Either those people didn't watch the game much back then, or they have just forgotten with time. It always happens. He is the best all-around player in the game now so it is to be expected I guess.

Ya... Too many youngsters I suppose. I would bet money that they just see Lebron's name in a poll and automatically vote for him without even reading what the question even is. Lol

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 10:10 PM
Ya... Too many youngsters I suppose. I would bet money that they just see Lebron's name in a poll and automatically vote for him without even reading what the question even is. Lol

and how old are you?

Goose17
08-20-2013, 02:20 AM
marion is very underrated defender(because of the team he played on),good call in naming him.

:nod: glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.

sunsfan88
08-20-2013, 02:57 AM
Lol I can't believe Igoudala and Bird are on this list.

Wheres Louol Deng and Nicolas Batum then lol.

amos1er
08-20-2013, 03:59 AM
and how old are you?

32

naps
08-20-2013, 04:07 AM
It's between Pippen and LeBron but I would have to go with Pippen here. LeBron is more versatile no doubt but Pippen IMO is the greatest perimeter defender of all-time. I still wonder how he never got the DPOY award.

WadeKobe
08-20-2013, 04:09 AM
Peak? It's a toss up between Artest, Battier, and Pippen, with Bowen and LeBron right behind.

If I have a gun to my head? Give me a young Ron Artest. At the height o his powers, in his best single year, I probably take him. If we are calling "peak" like 3 years or so? Pippen.

LBJ6
08-20-2013, 04:17 AM
He's a really good defender like I said, I just don't think he's All Defense 1st team worthy, or the best perimeter defender in the game which is what many feel he is.
Well I have to disagree with your opinion, Lebron is a great defender and possibly the best today, it doesn't matter if you coast what matters is when one exhibited his prowess on defense wether full time or not, that's where you will be able to evaluate who's the best, which includes versatility in which Lebron is the only one out there.

Goose17
08-20-2013, 07:59 AM
Peak? It's a toss up between Artest, Battier, and Pippen, with Bowen and LeBron right behind.

If I have a gun to my head? Give me a young Ron Artest. At the height o his powers, in his best single year, I probably take him. If we are calling "peak" like 3 years or so? Pippen.

Battier is a good shout. Forgot about him.

FYL_McVeezy
08-20-2013, 08:58 AM
The short answer without any explanations is Pippen......definition of lockdown....

kdspurman
08-20-2013, 09:21 AM
Well I have to disagree with your opinion, Lebron is a great defender and possibly the best today, it doesn't matter if you coast what matters is when one exhibited his prowess on defense wether full time or not, that's where you will be able to evaluate who's the best, which includes versatility in which Lebron is the only one out there.

I definitely don't agree that he's the best today, there's several other guys who when it comes to defense I'd take before him. I think he's really good, but not the best. His name will get him more recognition and respect in that regard than he probably deserves, but when you are who he is, that's to be expected. I think the same about Ibaka, I don't think Lebron or Ibaka belonged on the All NBA Defense 1st team.

We can agree to disagree which is totally cool, that's just what I think. I can respect your opinion though

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 06:38 AM
Bird doesn't belong in this discussion if you have names of LeBron, Bowen, Pippen, and Artest. He shouldn't be getting votes if you're putting these guys in comparison. I'd say Pippen just because he shut down many players. Bowen and Artest are also dirty.

PhillyFaninLA
08-22-2013, 07:45 AM
any good poll needs to say out of these choices or other.....bad poll

Davidgta1
08-22-2013, 10:08 AM
Pippen

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 11:38 AM
Michael Jordan....all of you who say Pippen can go look at who REALLY gaurded the best offensive player on the other team most of the time, and then go suck on it.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 11:39 AM
I definitely don't agree that he's the best today, there's several other guys who when it comes to defense I'd take before him. I think he's really good, but not the best. His name will get him more recognition and respect in that regard than he probably deserves, but when you are who he is, that's to be expected. I think the same about Ibaka, I don't think Lebron or Ibaka belonged on the All NBA Defense 1st team.

We can agree to disagree which is totally cool, that's just what I think. I can respect your opinion though

i can respect yours too if you give me a valid reason why you think he gets it off name recognition and not based off his actual defense.

kdspurman
08-22-2013, 12:30 PM
i can respect yours too if you give me a valid reason why you think he gets it off name recognition and not based off his actual defense.

I just don't think he deserved 1st team. I think Iguodala was more deserving than he was. And i don't think he deserved to be in 2nd for DPOY running. Him 2nd & Serge 3rd just didn't make sense to me, especially with guys like Tony Allen, Duncan, & Iguodala (just to name a few) who were arguably better defensively and shouldered a bigger load of their teams defense.

I get why they're 2nd & 3rd, Lebron is Lebron & Serge blocks a lot of shots, but I don't agree with it.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 12:47 PM
I just don't think he deserved 1st team. I think Iguodala was more deserving than he was. And i don't think he deserved to be in 2nd for DPOY running. Him 2nd & Serge 3rd just didn't make sense to me, especially with guys like Tony Allen, Duncan, & Iguodala (just to name a few) who were arguably better defensively and shouldered a bigger load of their teams defense.

I get why they're 2nd & 3rd, Lebron is Lebron & Serge blocks a lot of shots, but I don't agree with it.

what is your definition of shouldering a bigger defensive load?

kdspurman
08-22-2013, 01:00 PM
what is your definition of shouldering a bigger defensive load?

Just someone who has so much responsibility on the defensive end, whether it be guarding opposing teams best player, or patrolling the paint, P&R defense, on a consistent basis, and who is relied heavily upon in that regard.

I will say it again, I think Lebron is a really good defender, but feel other guys were more deserving than he was for All defense & DPOY voting. I'm fine with you not agreeing with my opinion btw, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you think.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 01:14 PM
I just don't think he deserved 1st team. I think Iguodala was more deserving than he was. And i don't think he deserved to be in 2nd for DPOY running. Him 2nd & Serge 3rd just didn't make sense to me, especially with guys like Tony Allen, Duncan, & Iguodala (just to name a few) who were arguably better defensively and shouldered a bigger load of their teams defense.

I get why they're 2nd & 3rd, Lebron is Lebron & Serge blocks a lot of shots, but I don't agree with it.

Bron averages less than a block a game. So he's not blocking a lot of shots no matter which way you slice it. And what used to be his trademark chase down has diminished over the years. Nowadays he gets most of them off of the weakside when somebody misses an assignment.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 01:20 PM
I just don't think he deserved 1st team. I think Iguodala was more deserving than he was. And i don't think he deserved to be in 2nd for DPOY running. Him 2nd & Serge 3rd just didn't make sense to me, especially with guys like Tony Allen, Duncan, & Iguodala (just to name a few) who were arguably better defensively and shouldered a bigger load of their teams defense.

I get why they're 2nd & 3rd, Lebron is Lebron & Serge blocks a lot of shots, but I don't agree with it.

Tony doesn't carry a larger defensive "load" than Bron. Better defender? Sure; I'd buy that. Larger load? Doubt it. Iggy and TD have a nice argument, but remember we're talking about perimeter defenders here. (Although I haven't been following the whole convo, so maybe I'm missing something here.)

jerellh528
08-22-2013, 01:23 PM
I aways thought the Lebron guarded every position was kinda arbitrary. Like sure i could guard every position if the players im guarding are lesser than me.

But it sounds so kewl to say! Realisticly Lebron should be able to guard 3s, most 2s and some 4s. Anyone else who is an above average player he can't really guard as effectively as other players on his own team could. And this statement can be made for most bigger, good defensive sfs.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 01:26 PM
But it sounds so kewl to say! Realisticly Lebron should be able to guard 3s, most 2s and some 4s. Anyone else who is an above average player he can't really guard as effectively as other players on his own team could. And this statement can be made for most bigger, good defensive sfs.

He can guard a pg in spurts. See DRose.

kdspurman
08-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Bron averages less than a block a game. So he's not blocking a lot of shots no matter which way you slice it. And what used to be his trademark chase down has diminished over the years. Nowadays he gets most of them off of the weakside when somebody misses an assignment.


Tony doesn't carry a larger defensive "load" than Bron. Better defender? Sure; I'd buy that. Larger load? Doubt it. Iggy and TD have a nice argument, but remember we're talking about perimeter defenders here. (Although I haven't been following the whole convo, so maybe I'm missing something here.)

I was referring to Ibaka with the blocks per game, I said "Lebron is Lebron" (which is why I think he got on the All defense 1st team.) I know he gets some weakside & chase down blocks.

And carrying a larger defensive load might have been phrasing it wrong, my bad. But you know on most nights, it's Tony Allen who is guarding the opposing teams best player on the perimeter. Lebron isn't always doing that, it could be Battier for the bulk of the game, & then Lebron sporadically. He can't fully expend his energy the way some of these other guys can, because he is so vital to the offense. (It's why he didn't guard Parker a lot in the finals)

The gist of it was I felt Lebron got the all defense 1st selection cause of who he is, & I thought other guys had a better argument. Heatcheck wanted me to explain why that was in order to respect my opinion.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:02 PM
But it sounds so kewl to say! Realisticly Lebron should be able to guard 3s, most 2s and some 4s. Anyone else who is an above average player he can't really guard as effectively as other players on his own team could. And this statement can be made for most bigger, good defensive sfs.

You should REALLY do your homework before you make statements like this. Go check who he was gaurding throughout the playoffs.

Xntrk
08-22-2013, 03:40 PM
Josh Smith?

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:10 PM
It's so hard to judge defense. It doesn't matter if you think James or Noah deserved it. There are a lot of intangibles and plays that you don't notice but are done for a reason. I may be a little biased and would pick James but I don't have a problem with Noah getting it.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 05:22 PM
And carrying a larger defensive load might have been phrasing it wrong, my bad. But you know on most nights, it's Tony Allen who is guarding the opposing teams best player on the perimeter.

While that's true that he generally guards the best opposing player, having the DPOY, another defensive teamer in Conley and Prince (who's essentially what Battier is at this point) would lead me to believe that your defensive load isn't that great when being compared to a team like the Heat who actually rely on Bron to anchor their defense, while playing more mins.


Lebron isn't always doing that, it could be Battier for the bulk of the game, & then Lebron sporadically. He can't fully expend his energy the way some of these other guys can, because he is so vital to the offense. (It's why he didn't guard Parker a lot in the finals)


Yea but Bron is the real defensive stopper on that team. When the NY faced Miami in the playoffs last year, Melo was licking his chops to gave Shane guard him. Bron gets put on him? Melo goes night-night. Didn't MJ always guard the best perimeter player anyways in the playoffs? So why do people rate Pip as a defender higher than MJ?

kdspurman
08-22-2013, 05:36 PM
While that's true that he generally guards the best opposing player, having the DPOY, another defensive teamer in Conley and Prince (who's essentially what Battier is at this point) would lead me to believe that your defensive load isn't that great when being compared to a team like the Heat who actually rely on Bron to anchor their defense, while playing more mins.



Yea but Bron is the real defensive stopper on that team. When the NY faced Miami in the playoffs last year, Melo was licking his chops to gave Shane guard him. Bron gets put on him? Melo goes night-night. Didn't MJ always guard the best perimeter player anyways in the playoffs? So why do people rate Pip as a defender higher than MJ?

I agree he's like the guy you say ok, go try and shut this guy down. But he's not doing it all game, & I just feel the dudes who are doing it all or most of the game should get a little more love than he does. Lebron has more votes than Bowen for example on this poll, so people have him as a better defender than Bowen. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see it at the moment.

You also bring up a good point about having a good defensive team (in Allen's case), but dude still works incredibly hard on the defensive end, and it allows a guy like Gasol to not always have to come help or rotate late because of it. So it's a mutually beneficial thing.

I honestly don't remember the matchups for Jordan/Pippen too clearly. I know Jordan guarded opposing teams best players often, but I don't remember who did it more out of he & Pippen. I feel like it was Pippen most of the times, but that's just a hunch.

ohreally
08-22-2013, 09:54 PM
I think LeBron deserves more credit on defense and should eventually win the award. But right now I have to go with Artest. He made defense famous.

Yeah, NEVER heard of defense before Artest.

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 10:27 PM
Pippen and Ron Ron prime are ahead of the rest by a mile. I remember Ron talking about how he would seriously be upset when people had good games against him and how he would memorize people's numbers against him...

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:13 PM
Larry Bird does NOT belong on this list. Heck, in what year was he even the best defensive player on his own team? McHale was ALWAYS a better defender than Bird. Parish might have been. D.J. was a top notched defensive guard. One year they had Walton, 6th man of the year iirc; no way Bird was better than him.

Every single thing bagwell has said about Bird's defense in this thread, I KNOW to be true also.

If we're talking a 5-year Peak, Pippen and Artest have got to be two of the top 5 on everybody's list.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:30 PM
.

Trueblue2
08-23-2013, 12:38 AM
32

I call bull ****

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:58 AM
32

I am 5 years older, and while I voted Pippen, imagine if LeBron didn't have the huge offensive responsibility he does, how much better of a defender he could be? He is nearly as good as I have seen for his position. Guards PG-PF. Just like Scottie. But Scottie got to do it as a much lower usage offensive guy who could concentrate on defense more.

I will say, Bron is the best free safety in basketball history, if anyone understands what I mean.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 01:00 AM
Peak? It's a toss up between Artest, Battier, and Pippen, with Bowen and LeBron right behind.

If I have a gun to my head? Give me a young Ron Artest. At the height o his powers, in his best single year, I probably take him. If we are calling "peak" like 3 years or so? Pippen.

notice none of them had the responsibility or needed energy on the other end. Not saying it matters when the answer to this thread is given, simply saying Bron could have been a NIGHTMARE on defense if he didn't waste so much energy on the other end.

Teeboy1487
08-23-2013, 01:27 AM
Clearly Pippen, Artest, and Bowen.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 12:53 PM
I am 5 years older, and while I voted Pippen, imagine if LeBron didn't have the huge offensive responsibility he does, how much better of a defender he could be? He is nearly as good as I have seen for his position. Guards PG-PF. Just like Scottie. But Scottie got to do it as a much lower usage offensive guy who could concentrate on defense more.

I will say, Bron is the best free safety in basketball history, if anyone understands what I mean.

Spot on, Hawk.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 12:58 PM
I know this is slightly off-topic; but when you think of the Bulls' second 3-year Championship run: they might have had all 3 best defenders in the League on that team: Pippen-MJ-Rodman. Wow.

Kushed
08-23-2013, 01:02 PM
I'd say pippen/artest at their peaks.

I think LeBron could be the best when it's all said and done. He's one of the most versatile defenders of all time. I think he wins DPOY next year barring Dwight returns to old form.

But pippen, artest and LeBron sound like the best 3 to me.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 01:14 PM
I know this is slightly off-topic; but when you think of the Bulls' second 3-year Championship run: they might have had all 3 best defenders in the League on that team: Pippen-MJ-Rodman. Wow.

Best wing defender and best rebounder in the league. Even though hardcore MJ fans will have you think he did it singlehandedly.

bartron_44
08-23-2013, 01:39 PM
Best wing defender and best rebounder in the league. Even though hardcore MJ fans will have you think he did it singlehandedly.

That team was so fun to watch play defense. They just shut down the oppositions best 3 players pretty much on a nightly basis.

Pippen averaged like 3 steals and block per game in his prime. Not only did he lock down players, but he also got the Bulls a lot of easy baskets because of his defense.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 01:59 PM
That team was so fun to watch play defense. They just shut down the oppositions best 3 players pretty much on a nightly basis.

Pippen averaged like 3 steals and block per game in his prime. Not only did he lock down players, but he also got the Bulls a lot of easy baskets because of his defense.

bartron 44 said that in response to this by Tony_Starks:

"Best wing defender and best rebounder in the league. Even though hardcore MJ fans will have you think he did it singlehandedly." which was his response to this by me, pablonovi:

"I know this is slightly off-topic; but when you think of the Bulls' second 3-year Championship run: they might have had all 3 best defenders in the League on that team: Pippen-MJ-Rodman. Wow."

Hey bartron 44 and Tony_Starks,
Virtually no one will deny the defensive excellence of Pippen and MJ. So let's talk about Rodman for a moment.

For example, I watched it with my own eyes and I still don't believe it. No one stopped or even slowed down Peak Shaq. But what the hell was (comparatively speaking) tiny Rodman doing, semi-holding his own (again comparatively speaking) against Shaq??? Anybody else that small would have ended up in the hospital after the first 5 minutes!!! Rodman's courage, core-body strength, and defensive smarts were just amazing!!!

DR_1
08-24-2013, 04:11 PM
Bird on the list :laugh2:

I'll take Pippen, although Bowen was pretty incredible at perimeter D

Hawkeye15
08-24-2013, 04:40 PM
I know this is slightly off-topic; but when you think of the Bulls' second 3-year Championship run: they might have had all 3 best defenders in the League on that team: Pippen-MJ-Rodman. Wow.

What's funny is, there was a time period where Pippen wasn't even the best defender on his own team during his prime.

MTar786
08-24-2013, 05:10 PM
i dont know why lebron gets so much love on overall defense. in my opinion lebron is the best sf of all time on help defense. but it stops there. if u want to accuse me of hating then eat this. i also think lebron is the goat sf ever. better than bird too. but come on guys. hes not the best defender. i take pippin, artist, bowen, hill, iggy and battier over him. but again, i take lebron number 1 for help defense. on the ball he is good but nothing spectacular. and i say good only because he has the body and speed to guard multiple positions. but i wouldnt be afraid if he was guarding me.. so thats pretty much a moot point.

Auseranami
08-24-2013, 06:02 PM
1. Pip 2. Artest 3. Bowen then it doesn't matter.

Meaze_Gibson
08-24-2013, 07:17 PM
I dont really judge defense by stats so in my opinion iggy is overrated. Pippen limited magic and other stars in his day. couldnt guard penny and grant hill though.

Lebron has limited derrick rose, tony parker, paul george, in recent years. cant guard durant and melo though.

but who in the hell has iggy limited in his rime years?

Ive seen shane battier play the best defense on kobe i have ever seen. Ive seen bowen limit carmelo, lebron, and others.

I have never seen iggy contain a superstar in a playoff stretch or important game so to me im amazed when people put his name over brons.

In my time watching NBA
1. Pippen
2. Lebron
3. Bowen
4. Artest
5. Battier

Bostonjorge
08-24-2013, 07:43 PM
Lebron because his amazing D against Jennings and then on Nate Robison and finally Paul George. No one has had that much tough defensive assignments in the same playoffs.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 07:46 PM
Why are you guys focusing on 1 on 1 defense when TEAM defense is FAR more important?

flea
08-24-2013, 07:53 PM
Battier belongs in this poll before Iguodala, Bird, or perhaps even Bowen. Pippen is the easy answer, and it's who I'd take.

mike_noodles
08-24-2013, 08:07 PM
Bird on the list :laugh2:

I'll take Pippen, although Bowen was pretty incredible at perimeter D

It's even funnier that 3 people voted for him, lol.

I got Pippen. But this is unfair, nobody from the old days?

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 08:18 PM
It's even funnier that 3 people voted for him, lol.

I got Pippen. But this is unfair, nobody from the old days?

Hey mike noodles,
"... nobody from the old days?" Excellent point; can you help us get started comparing them to the guys in the OP; by suggesting a guy or three?

Hawkeye15
08-25-2013, 01:44 AM
Why are you guys focusing on 1 on 1 defense when TEAM defense is FAR more important?

to provide agenda?

JayW_1023
08-25-2013, 09:18 AM
LeBron is a good defender, but because he a superstar he gets overrated for the same reason Kobe gets overrated.

OceanSpray
08-26-2013, 01:56 AM
When was the last time you can recall a player defending the best player, scoring for the team, making plays for the team, and rebounding for the team all in one playoffs season? It's remarkable that he can be great at all these things at a high level.