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TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 12:29 AM
Was there thread in here about this that was removed?

MTar786
08-18-2013, 06:49 AM
Reggie miller, Robert horry, Derek fisher

slashsnake
08-18-2013, 07:32 AM
Jordan of course... I would also throw out there Bruce Bowen. Guy just seemed to always answer with a nice three when needed. Larry Bird... Jerry West...

archdevil84
08-18-2013, 08:43 AM
king james

MrfadeawayJB
08-18-2013, 11:51 AM
Horry is a good pick. Might be one of the most clutch role players of all time

sunsfan88
08-18-2013, 03:49 PM
Tim Duncan.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 04:20 PM
ray allen

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:25 PM
Top 5 Clutch All-Time

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Miller
4. Bird
5. Magic

slaker619
08-18-2013, 04:40 PM
Jordan.......

el hidalgo
08-18-2013, 08:35 PM
Top 5 Clutch All-Time

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Miller
4. Bird
5. Magic

What is your list based off of? Just wondering what you used to create it. stats, eye test, opinions?

Kashmir13579
08-18-2013, 11:08 PM
Of all time? Thats a tough question to answer. I'll play it safe and say Shaq.

faze38
08-18-2013, 11:16 PM
1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Magic


4. Horry

Bruins2012
08-18-2013, 11:27 PM
Is it too early to say Andrew Wiggins??


If it is then I'll say Larry Bird.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 11:29 PM
What is your list based off of? Just wondering what you used to create it. stats, eye test, opinions?

25 years of watching the NBA. Guess you can say it's all three. Eye test, stats, and opinion.

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 11:35 PM
25 years of watching the NBA. Guess you can say it's all three. Eye test, stats, and opinion.

haha

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 11:35 PM
Jordan
Dream
Bird
LeBron

JerseyPalahniuk
08-18-2013, 11:36 PM
25 years of watching the NBA. Guess you can say it's all three. Eye test, stats, and opinion.

The stats don't really help your case man. Eye test and opinion it is

LBJ6
08-18-2013, 11:41 PM
Lebron

Bishnoff
08-18-2013, 11:47 PM
Was there thread in here about this that was removed?

Define "clutch". Hitting game winners, 4th quarter production, or...?

amos1er
08-18-2013, 11:51 PM
The stats don't really help your case man. Eye test and opinion it is

So most game winners and or game tying shots in NBA history is not a stat?

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 11:54 PM
So most game winners and or game tying shots in NBA history is not a stat?

sure it is. A pathetic one. Show me the stat where Kobe is 31% with games in the less than 5 minute mark, one possession game, and his team goes from 106 points per 100 possessions to 86 points per 100 possessions......


Fact, Kobe's "clutch" ability fits into the goldfish mindset. We only remember the big shots, while neglecting the misses which occur at an exponentially higher rate..

Despite any and every quote or vote you can link, Kobe is the most overrated clutch player. I would take 20-30 players ahead of him in the closing moments.

Then again, wtf does "clutch" even mean?

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:09 AM
sure it is. A pathetic one. Show me the stat where Kobe is 31% with games in the less than 5 minute mark, one possession game, and his team goes from 106 points per 100 possessions to 86 points per 100 possessions......


Fact, Kobe's "clutch" ability fits into the goldfish mindset. We only remember the big shots, while neglecting the misses which occur at an exponentially higher rate..

Despite any and every quote or vote you can link, Kobe is the most overrated clutch player. I would take 20-30 players ahead of him in the closing moments.

Then again, wtf does "clutch" even mean?

Yes, Kobe does miss more than he makes for sure, but he has the balls to take them every time not giving a damn about his FG% and the degree of difficulty is off the charts. Guess clutch just means that you come through in a pinch... When the odds are stacked against you and its make or break. It's 100 times harder to hit free throws when in the back of your mind you know the game is on the line. Your legs turn to jelly and your arms feel 100 lbs heavier. It's a very tough mental hurdle to overcome. Thats how I knew Leonard was going to miss at least one free throw in game 6. 21 year old guy with no big game experience... Huh wonder what the vegas odds were that he would miss at least one. Bet they were extremely high for sure. Anyways, you have to take degree of difficulty into account in these type of clutch situations because there is not time to draw out a good play and the other teams defense is going to be at its 100% best. Thats why Kobe is so great in those situations... You don't expect anyone to make the shot anyways and Kobe's degree of difficulty is easily head and shoulders over everyone else. Even you have to admit that. Kobe has the ability to create a decent shot in even the most dire of circumstances. That and his fearlessness is why I would take him over any player not named Jordan with less than 5 seconds left with the game on the line and why most of the GM's in the league would too.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:19 AM
Yes, Kobe does miss more than he makes for sure, but he has the balls to take them every time not giving a damn about his FG% and the degree of difficulty is off the charts. Guess clutch just means that you come through in a pinch... When the odds are stacked against you and its make or break. It's 100 times harder to hit free throws when in the back of your mind you know the game is on the line. Your legs turn to jelly and your arms feel 100 lbs heavier. It's a very tough mental hurdle to overcome. Thats how I knew Leonard was going to miss at least one free throw in game 6. 21 year old guy with no big game experience... Huh wonder what the vegas odds were that he would miss at least one. Bet they were extremely high for sure. Anyways, you have to take degree of difficulty into account in these type of clutch situations because there is not time to draw out a good play and the other teams defense is going to be at its 100% best. Thats why Kobe is so great in those situations... You don't expect anyone to make the shot anyways and Kobe's degree of difficulty is easily head and shoulders over everyone else. Even you have to admit that. Kobe has the ability to create a decent shot in even the most dire of circumstances. That and his fearlessness is why I would take him over any player not named Jordan with less than 5 seconds left with the game on the line and why most of the GM's in the league would too.

I am not reading the drivel you post, you know that by now.

You mentioned that you use "stats" for must clutch player ever, and then added Kobe.

B.S. Period.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:19 AM
and anyone who takes Kobe with under 20 seconds to go, game on the line, is losing almost every time. Fact.

STATS........

el hidalgo
08-19-2013, 12:22 AM
I am not reading the drivel you post, you know that by now.

You mentioned that you use "stats" for must clutch player ever, and then added Kobe.

B.S. Period.

Looks like you have finally had enough, hawkeye :laugh2:

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:26 AM
I am not reading the drivel you post, you know that by now.

You mentioned that you use "stats" for must clutch player ever, and then added Kobe.

B.S. Period.

Eh... Your loss. My post wasn't even that homeristic. Having the most made clutch shots in NBA history is a pretty important stat IMO. Have to factor in degree of difficulty in those situations for sure.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:27 AM
Looks like you have finally had enough, hawkeye :laugh2:

Lol He had enough a long time ago. Can't believe he even replied to me in the first place. Especially since he swore he never would again.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:28 AM
and anyone who takes Kobe with under 20 seconds to go, game on the line, is losing almost every time. Fact.

STATS........

What about 5 seconds to go?

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:30 AM
Looks like you have finally had enough, hawkeye :laugh2:

happened a long time ago

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:31 AM
Eh... Your loss. My post wasn't even that homeristic. Having the most made clutch shots in NBA history is a pretty important stat IMO. Have to factor in degree of difficulty in those situations for sure.

totally, and when you exponentially lead in attempts, some are bound to land. But by all means, keep ignoring context, it suits your agenda.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:32 AM
What about 5 seconds to go?

same ****.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:33 AM
Lol He had enough a long time ago. Can't believe he even replied to me in the first place. Especially since he swore he never would again.

Forgive me, sometimes I can't help myself. Your unreal agenda, at times, requires my attention, at least to me...

el hidalgo
08-19-2013, 12:34 AM
we may disagree amos1er, but ill give you one thing. you stick by your beliefs to the end and never admit defeat

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:36 AM
we may disagree amos1er, but ill give you one thing. you stick by your beliefs to the end and never admit defeat

Neither did Hitler

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:41 AM
totally, and when you exponentially lead in attempts, some are bound to land. But by all means, keep ignoring context, it suits your agenda.

Not necessarily. A lot of that has to do with ability to create your own shot. Not just any player in the NBA can take that many shots and hit at a decent rate. You know that the more shots you take, the harder it is to have a good FG%. Someone who gets a pin point pass and dunk on a perfectly drawn out play can hit a game winner and have a 100% landing ratio. But someone who is leaned on to create a play or make something happen will naturally have a lower efficiency than someone who the beneficiary of a set play. It's like the old Jordan quote about how he missed over 9000 shots in his career.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Neither did Hitler

Did you just compare me to Hitler?

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:50 AM
Not necessarily. A lot of that has to do with ability to create your own shot. Not just any player in the NBA can take that many shots and hit at a decent rate. You know that the more shots you take, the harder it is to have a good FG%. Someone who gets a pin point pass and dunk on a perfectly drawn out play can hit a game winner and have a 100% landing ratio. But someone who is leaned on to create a play or make something happen will naturally have a lower efficiency than someone who the beneficiary of a set play. It's like the old Jordan quote about how he missed over 9000 shots in his career.

nope. Kobe has hit a ton, because he took a **** on the attempt record. This is a fact.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:50 AM
same ****.

http://www.mixmakers.net/basketball/kobe-vs-lebron-last-10-seconds-clutch-stats/

http://chasing23.com/the-ball-dont-lie-but-sometimes-stats-do/

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:50 AM
Did you just compare me to Hitler?

not really

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 12:50 AM
http://www.mixmakers.net/basketball/kobe-vs-lebron-last-10-seconds-clutch-stats/

http://chasing23.com/the-ball-dont-lie-but-sometimes-stats-do/

I like real stats.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:52 AM
Neither did Hitler

Wrong. He did quit. He killed himself.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:56 AM
not really

Thats good. I am jewish after all and the grandson of holocaust survivors.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 12:58 AM
I like real stats.

We know.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 01:05 AM
we may disagree amos1er, but ill give you one thing. you stick by your beliefs to the end and never admit defeat

:cheers:

el hidalgo
08-19-2013, 01:07 AM
http://www.mixmakers.net/basketball/kobe-vs-lebron-last-10-seconds-clutch-stats/

http://chasing23.com/the-ball-dont-lie-but-sometimes-stats-do/

only read the 1st link. what about assists? that is biased towards kobe obviously, considering kobe is not the assister lebron is. kobe is overrated and a noob in crunch time IMO

lol, please
08-19-2013, 01:07 AM
Steph Curry.

PurpleLynch
08-19-2013, 06:45 AM
We need to put some in-thread rules...1st and only rule for this thread:just write the name of a ****in player that you think is clutch and explain why(the definition of clutch is widely regarded as one player who put the team on his shoulders in 4th quarters and win games creating shots and getting buckets,some of these shots with few seconds to the end of the game.)
PS:sorry,I don't swear usually,just a bit upset.

archdevil84
08-19-2013, 07:36 AM
Lebron james because for some reason he always seem to turn his game up in the 4th quarter. maybe its just illusion but its seems like he always racks up a ton of assists, rebounds and points in the final 6 minuten. He's not particulary good at taking the shot but he aint bad either. but mostly just the fact that he gives it all in the last few minutes to try and get the win no matter the cost.

jericho
08-19-2013, 07:51 AM
http://youtu.be/Qd8mGzGK1Uc

http://youtu.be/jBrx1dMEQ1I

I forgot amosier only uses videos as evidence now

jericho
08-19-2013, 08:15 AM
And just for the hell of it

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter


I miss Brandon Roy :(

BklynKnicks3
08-19-2013, 09:23 AM
anyone who even mentions LeBron in this should be banned how many times has this guy come up small in big moments. I know its a lot more then he has come up big.

BklynKnicks3
08-19-2013, 09:24 AM
1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Isiah
5 reggie miller

hidalgo
08-19-2013, 09:48 AM
Jordan
Bird
R Miller
Magic
West

Minimal
08-19-2013, 09:48 AM
anyone who even mentions LeBron in this should be banned how many times has this guy come up small in big moments. I know its a lot more then he has come up big.
There are stats, and they don't lie, LeBron is one of the best clutch performers statistically.
LeBron made a lot of clutch shots last season (5-6 game winning shots) and how many times did he setup Ray Allen to win the game? How about game winner in Game 1 against Pacers? 4th quarter in Game 6 against Spurs? Game 7 against Spurs? A clutch shot in last 30 seconds, ahead only by 2? Fact is, if LeBron holds the ball in the last couple of seconds, his team is most likely to win.
Watch this, this is not including playoffs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zunN5WBAA

Hawkeye15
08-19-2013, 10:56 AM
Thats good. I am jewish after all and the grandson of holocaust survivor.

literally the one thing we have in common

Bostonjorge
08-19-2013, 03:53 PM
Jordan and kobe the 2 guys no teams wants to see with the ball during crunch time.

Heatcheck
08-19-2013, 04:20 PM
I think players like Robert Horry shouldnt be considered.
I thikn to be considered clutch, you have to have some kind of decision making responsibility, for example, deciding whether to pull up, drive, run the clock down, take it earlier to give yourself the opportunity of a put back, dish it off, even things like when to make your move, i feel THAT is being clutch. Not shooting a catch and shoot jumper, on a play designed to you, and going to you because you wont be covered as tightly because your far from the first or second option.

jericho
08-19-2013, 04:22 PM
Jordan and kobe the 2 guys no teams wants to see with the ball during crunch time.

Jordan yeah Kobe not so much.

jericho
08-19-2013, 04:26 PM
I think players like Robert Horry shouldnt be considered.
I thikn to be considered clutch, you have to have some kind of decision making responsibility, for example, deciding whether to pull up, drive, run the clock down, take it earlier to give yourself the opportunity of a put back, dish it off, even things like when to make your move, i feel THAT is being clutch. Not shooting a catch and shoot jumper, on a play designed to you, and going to you because you wont be covered as tightly because your far from the first or second option.

So we have to take Ray Allen out as well because he is usually all by himself when taking his shots. Thats really a ridiculous excuse those guys still have the presure that the time is clicking and if i miss this shot we lose this game. As much as i hate the Lakers i have to recognize that while Horry wasnt a superstar he was one of the most clutch player ever.

Heatcheck
08-19-2013, 04:55 PM
anyone who even mentions LeBron in this should be banned how many times has this guy come up small in big moments. I know its a lot more then he has come up big.

in other words..."i dont know, i just dont like him and hope really hard im right"

Heatcheck
08-19-2013, 04:59 PM
So we have to take Ray Allen out as well because he is usually all by himself when taking his shots. Thats really a ridiculous excuse those guys still have the presure that the time is clicking and if i miss this shot we lose this game. As much as i hate the Lakers i have to recognize that while Horry wasnt a superstar he was one of the most clutch player ever.

again, i disagree, pressure is relative to the size of the player. if ray allen, today, misses a shot, its much different than ray allen missing that shot in seattle. Robert horry knows he has one job to do, which is catch and shoot, make or miss, its out of his hands, and if he does miss, its a set shot and the attention turns to a)the coach for calling the play and b) the star players who didnt "ask" for the ball. When someone like Kobe is isolated with 10 seconds left, thats when you find out who can handle the pressure.

jerellh528
08-19-2013, 04:59 PM
Ill have to say Jordan and Bryant are the ones I'd choose to have in the waning moments of a game. Foot on throat, no reservations type players.

el hidalgo
08-19-2013, 05:02 PM
Ill have to say Jordan and Bryant are the ones I'd choose to have in the waning moments of a game. Foot on throat, no reservations type players.

with this explanation, cant you add a guy like iverson to your list?

jerellh528
08-19-2013, 05:06 PM
with this explanation, cant you add a guy like iverson to your list?

If you want to add him, sure. But it's my opinion and list. So nah.

el hidalgo
08-19-2013, 05:09 PM
If you want to add him, sure. But it's my opinion and list. So nah.

ah, i see. well hell, ill add him to my list. its my opinion. he is never scared to take the last shot. hes got that killer instinct

jordan
lebron
iverson

jerellh528
08-19-2013, 05:11 PM
ah, i see. well hell, ill add him to my list. its my opinion. he is never scared to take the last shot. hes got that killer instinct

jordan
lebron
iverson

Cool.

RiLoc
08-19-2013, 06:07 PM
I don't know who I'd chose as "most clutch", but if I had to choose a star player I want for every clutch situation; I would look for the player I can trust to make the best basketball decisions, instead of the guy that takes contested isolation jump shots.

Here are a couple of Henry Abbott articles that contrast Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant and illustrate what I mean:
Chris Paul's crunch time mind (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24990/chris-pauls-crunch-time-mind)
The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time)

Strategically, I dislike the last second isolation plays. That being said, I think end game isolations are understandable from a coach's perspective considering the fickle nature of job security. Less people question the decision making of a star like Kobe Bryant missing a double teamed fadeaway as opposed to a star player dishing to an wide open role player and the role player missing.

Supreme LA
08-19-2013, 06:15 PM
I don't know who I'd chose as "most clutch", but if I had to choose a star player I want for every clutch situation; I would look for the player I can trust to make the best basketball decisions, instead of the guy that takes contested isolation jump shots.

Here are a couple of Henry Abbott articles that contrast Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant and illustrate what I mean:
Chris Paul's crunch time mind (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24990/chris-pauls-crunch-time-mind)
The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time)

Strategically, I dislike the last second isolation plays. That being said, I think end game isolations are understandable from a coach's perspective considering the fickle nature of job security. Less people question the decision making of a star like Kobe Bryant missing a double teamed fadeaway as opposed to a star player dishing to an wide open role player and the role player missing.

That's nice, but what about a clock situation of 0.8 or just 1 second where there would obviously be no time to make a pass. In that case, I and would hope most of you would take Kobe for the last shot because there has never been anyone in the history of this league that has proven he can get a greater shot from any angle and any space on the court no matter how many defenders are in the vicinity like Kobe has through his career.

Kobe is simply the best "tough shot" maker in league history with only MJ rivaling him in that aspect. Don't believe it or just stay in denial but it is the truth.

Supreme LA
08-19-2013, 06:18 PM
ah, i see. well hell, ill add him to my list. its my opinion. he is never scared to take the last shot. hes got that killer instinct

jordan
lebron
iverson

That's funny.

ManRam
08-19-2013, 06:19 PM
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Whoever the 4th best player in the league is
5. Whoever the 5th best player in the league is

RiLoc
08-19-2013, 06:36 PM
That's nice, but what about a clock situation of 0.8 or just 1 second where there would obviously be no time to make a pass. In that case, I and would hope most of you would take Kobe for the last shot because there has never been anyone in the history of this league that has proven he can get a greater shot from any angle and any space on the court no matter how many defenders are in the vicinity like Kobe has through his career.

Kobe is simply the best "tough shot" maker in league history with only MJ rivaling him in that aspect. Don't believe it or just stay in denial but it is the truth.Clutch is usually defined as the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime when neither team has a lead of more than five points. If you would like to make the question simply "what about a clock situation of 0.8 or just 1 second where there would obviously be no time to make a pass" then you're correct, the best quick-difficult-contested shot maker would probably be the best choice.

And to be honest, in terms of watching as a fan, I love nothing more than watching Kobe hit clutch shots. It's fun. :)

D-Leethal
08-19-2013, 06:45 PM
If were talking last play? I I would give LeBron his due at #1 or 1a/b with KD.

Last shot? He wouldn't even be in my top 5, maybe 10. For me, that would be KD by a wide margin. I would have guys like Tony Parker, Kobe, Paul, Melo, Pierce ahead of him if were talking strictly taking the last shot.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 07:02 PM
literally the one thing we have in common

Wow... Pretty crazy. We are a rare breed indeed.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 07:03 PM
I don't know who I'd chose as "most clutch", but if I had to choose a star player I want for every clutch situation; I would look for the player I can trust to make the best basketball decisions, instead of the guy that takes contested isolation jump shots.

Here are a couple of Henry Abbott articles that contrast Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant and illustrate what I mean:
Chris Paul's crunch time mind (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24990/chris-pauls-crunch-time-mind)
The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time)

Strategically, I dislike the last second isolation plays. That being said, I think end game isolations are understandable from a coach's perspective considering the fickle nature of job security. Less people question the decision making of a star like Kobe Bryant missing a double teamed fadeaway as opposed to a star player dishing to an wide open role player and the role player missing.

Oh no not Abbott.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 07:04 PM
That's funny.

It's even funnier that he listed Iverson after.

dalton749
08-19-2013, 07:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3arqucJn6vk

Oefarmy2005
08-20-2013, 11:18 AM
Statistically speaking, Bryant was the most clutch player the last 3/5 years.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:19 AM
Statistically speaking, Bryant was the most clutch player the last 3/5 years.

absolutely false.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:21 AM
I don't know who I'd chose as "most clutch", but if I had to choose a star player I want for every clutch situation; I would look for the player I can trust to make the best basketball decisions, instead of the guy that takes contested isolation jump shots.

Here are a couple of Henry Abbott articles that contrast Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant and illustrate what I mean:
Chris Paul's crunch time mind (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24990/chris-pauls-crunch-time-mind)
The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time)

Strategically, I dislike the last second isolation plays. That being said, I think end game isolations are understandable from a coach's perspective considering the fickle nature of job security. Less people question the decision making of a star like Kobe Bryant missing a double teamed fadeaway as opposed to a star player dishing to an wide open role player and the role player missing.

me too. The real answer is that I would rather have the ball in CP3's hands over almost anyone. Someone who can both score at an efficient rate, or find the open man. Bron even, over the isolation guys. George Karl used to do a great job of running a play for Melo, so he always shot a high percentage on closing moment shots, because it was a natural play progression type deal. Isolation is the WORST way if you are just giving it to a guy with tunnel vision.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:23 AM
Wow... Pretty crazy. We are a rare breed indeed.

he literally never spoke of it. I don't think he liked to think about those couple of years.

ManRam
08-20-2013, 11:43 AM
Statistically speaking, Bryant was the most clutch player the last 3/5 years.

Elaborate, please.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 11:44 AM
I think the thing about isolation plays, when you see guys put the ball in their best players hand and dribble out the clock, is that you are leaving zero chance for an epic blunder.

1) You are guaranteeing yourself a clean look at the rim, which is not guaranteed once you drive into the teeth of the defense.

2) Unless they send a hard double, your guaranteeing yourself single coverage. Once you drive, your driving into multiple defenders.

3) Your pretty much guaranteeing that there will be no turnover, and that your team is gonna have the LAST shot to win it.

Lots of things can go wrong once you drive, that can't go wrong in a dribble-the-clock-down isolation. The isolation might go in less often than the dribble drive, but throwing the ball away, getting a charge drawn, losing your handle in traffic are not options, where those are things that can occur once you drive the lane into the teeth of the defense. We have seen firsthand with LeBron that even he can make those costly turnovers late in games when you complicate things by driving into the teeth of the D. Melo did the same late in game 6 against Indy.

Now, all things considered, does that mean Iso jumper is the way to go? Probably not if you have a LeBron or CP3. But it is the safest route, and there is a reason coaches will rely on that when it comes down to the game winner.

el hidalgo
08-20-2013, 11:46 AM
Statistically speaking, Kobe has the most sweet looking, difficult fadeaways in clutch time

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:54 AM
I think the thing about isolation plays, when you see guys put the ball in their best players hand and dribble out the clock, is that you are leaving zero chance for an epic blunder.

1) You are guaranteeing yourself a clean look at the rim, which is not guaranteed once you drive into the teeth of the defense.

2) Unless they send a hard double, your guaranteeing yourself single coverage. Once you drive, your driving into multiple defenders.

3) Your pretty much guaranteeing that there will be no turnover, and that your team is gonna have the LAST shot to win it.

Lots of things can go wrong once you drive, that can't go wrong in a dribble-the-clock-down isolation. The isolation might go in less often than the dribble drive, but throwing the ball away, getting a charge drawn, losing your handle in traffic are not options, where those are things that can occur once you drive the lane into the teeth of the defense. We have seen firsthand with LeBron that even he can make those costly turnovers late in games when you complicate things by driving into the teeth of the D. Melo did the same late in game 6 against Indy.

Now, all things considered, does that mean Iso jumper is the way to go? Probably not if you have a LeBron or CP3. But it is the safest route, and there is a reason coaches will rely on that when it comes down to the game winner.

Isolation is also the lowest percentage look you will get in a one possession game. It is worth the risk of all the other things you stated, to get the much higher percentage chance at a make.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:54 AM
Statistically speaking, Kobe has the most sweet looking, difficult fadeaways in clutch time

for sure true.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 11:56 AM
I think coaches logic behind the dribble-the-clock iso is similar to the hesitancy to foul when up 3. Statistically, I actually think fouling and not fouling when up 3 is pretty dead even, but even if it were favor to the team that actually fouls and prohibits a chance to tie, most coaches would be hesitant due to all the things that could possibly go wrong, and the fact that a freak miracle play (4 point play, 3 FTs where you miss the last and get a put back) could actually lose you the game where if you don't foul, the worst that can happen is OT.

ManRam
08-20-2013, 11:57 AM
I think the thing about isolation plays, when you see guys put the ball in their best players hand and dribble out the clock, is that you are leaving zero chance for an epic blunder.

1) You are guaranteeing yourself a clean look at the rim, which is not guaranteed once you drive into the teeth of the defense.

2) Unless they send a hard double, your guaranteeing yourself single coverage. Once you drive, your driving into multiple defenders.

3) Your pretty much guaranteeing that there will be no turnover, and that your team is gonna have the LAST shot to win it.

Lots of things can go wrong once you drive, that can't go wrong in a dribble-the-clock-down isolation. The isolation might go in less often than the dribble drive, but throwing the ball away, getting a charge drawn, losing your handle in traffic are not options, where those are things that can occur once you drive the lane into the teeth of the defense. We have seen firsthand with LeBron that even he can make those costly turnovers late in games when you complicate things by driving into the teeth of the D. Melo did the same late in game 6 against Indy.

Now, all things considered, does that mean Iso jumper is the way to go? Probably not if you have a LeBron or CP3. But it is the safest route, and there is a reason coaches will rely on that when it comes down to the game winner.

I don't think I buy any of this.

1. No you're not. I feel like "hero ball" usually leads to a heavily contested deep jumper. AKA, an incredibly low percentage shot. Anything at the rim from a competent player, regardless of how contested, is probably a much higher percentage shot than that.

2. Again, not true. If it's clear that it's just gonna be an obvious isolation the defense is gonna send extra help. It happens all the time when Kobe, LeBron, Melo etc. have the ball with the clock winding down.

3. And again, not true. Per 48 minutes of clutch play (per 82games.com) look at the turnover numbers.

Irving: 10.0
Holiday: 5.9
Harden: 5.0
Durant: 5.0
Anthony: 4.7
Paul: 3.9
Bryant: 3.5

LeBron is lower, at 2.7, probably because he's a willing passer and forces things far less.

Those are the 8th highest scorers per 48 minutes in "clutch time", BTW. Huge TO numbers.


Run the damn offense. If running these silly hero mode isos was the best offense to run, why don't offenses just do that the entire game? Oh yeah, because it's not at all the best offense you can run. An open three from Cartier Martin is a better shot than a heavily contested fadeaway two from any superstar after that player just dribbled the ball for 15 seconds and everyone stood and watched. No joke. An field goal attempt heading towards the rim from Tiago Splitter is also a better shot.

Run the offense. Look to get guys open. Find good shots. These late game iso plays are so ineffective statistically.

You're not gonna convince me that those shots from Bryant, LeBron, Dirk, etc. that have them shooting in the 30-40 percent range are better looks than the normal ones you'd get if you just ran a normal offense.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 11:58 AM
Isolation is also the lowest percentage look you will get in a one possession game. It is worth the risk of all the other things you stated, to get the much higher percentage chance at a make.

Not saying your not correct, but I think a lot of coaches are hesitant and prefer the safe route, like they do when they choose not to foul when up 3. I think some coaches prefer to take the lesser of the 'worst case scenario' when the game is on the line.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 12:11 PM
I don't think I buy any of this.

1. No you're not. I feel like "hero ball" usually leads to a heavily contested deep jumper. AKA, an incredibly low percentage shot. Anything at the rim from a competent player, regardless of how contested, is probably a much higher percentage shot than that.

2. Again, not true. If it's clear that it's just gonna be an obvious isolation the defense is gonna send extra help. It happens all the time when Kobe, LeBron, Melo etc. have the ball with the clock winding down.

3. And again, not true. Per 48 minutes of clutch play (per 82games.com) look at the turnover numbers.

Irving: 10.0
Holiday: 5.9
Harden: 5.0
Durant: 5.0
Anthony: 4.7
Paul: 3.9
Bryant: 3.5

LeBron is lower, at 2.7, probably because he's a willing passer and forces things far less.

Those are the 8th highest scorers per 48 minutes in "clutch time", BTW. Huge TO numbers.


Run the damn offense. If running these silly hero mode isos was the best offense to run, why don't offenses just do that the entire game? Oh yeah, because it's not at all the best offense you can run. An open three from Cartier Martin is a better shot than a heavily contested fadeaway two from any superstar after that player just dribbled the ball for 15 seconds and everyone stood and watched. No joke. An field goal attempt heading towards the rim from Tiago Splitter is also a better shot.

Run the offense. Look to get guys open. Find good shots. These late game iso plays are so ineffective statistically.

You're not gonna convince me that those shots from Bryant, LeBron, Dirk, etc. that have them shooting in the 30-40 percent range are better looks than the normal ones you'd get if you just ran a normal offense.

1) By clean look, I mean your giving yourself a shot at the rim. It might be contested, but its not gonna be blocked, its not gonna be in triple coverage.

2) There are way less (if any) angles to 'sneak up' on you with a double team when your at the key facing the basket and can see the whole floor, compared to when you drive the lane and have defenders in blind spots all around you. The blatant double when your dribbling at the top of the key is the easiest double to move out of because you see it from a mile a way, and you really don't see it all that often with those guys. I'd say way more often they allow them to dribble it out and force them to take a deep tough jumper instead of letting them rotate to a wide open shooter off a double team. Why? Probably because like you said, its a tougher shot. Why send the easiest double team in the book to beat at a guy just so he can give a shooter a wide open shot? That usually only happens if the Melo,Kobe,Dirk is completely on fire that particular night.

3) I was simply talking about the last play of the game, not the last 5 minutes.

And teams don't do it for the entire game for all the reasons you suggested - running the damn offense has a higher probability for success compared to dribbling it out and taking a jumper, it also has a higher probability for failure compared to dribbling it out and taking a jumper (by failure I don't mean miss, I mean not getting a shot off via driving into a smothering triple team, turnover). I am saying strictly with the game on the line, for the last play, many coaches will take the safe route.

I didn't read the whole thread, but my post wasn't about the last 5 mins, it was more or less about the last play. Forgive me if I am off topic.

And I'm not asking you to buy anything, just giving you my opinion as to why so many coaches will utilize that strategy to finish off the game. I think the reasoning is similar to the hesitancy to foul up 3, and you hear all the time from the coaches themselves, that hesitancy stems from having less chance of things to go royally wrong, even if the chances of them occurring are minute.

ztilzer31
08-20-2013, 12:13 PM
Isolation has it's uses, but the thing about isolation is you're not only using your best scoring option, you're going against the other teams best defender. Hence why you never see teams use isolation against really good teams like the Heat or Spurs (unelss you're Russell Westbrook destroying Tony Parker).

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 12:22 PM
The inability to send effective doubles when your at the top of the key facing the basket is also displayed, to a lesser extent, in coaches hesitancy to foul late in games - because when your facing the basket you see it coming, and the player can time it right and jack up a 3 for 3 free throws or a 4 point play (even though it rarely happens). What do coaches tell you? Only foul when they receive the ball with their back to the basket, and back to the man committing the foul.

When you drive the lane you have your back turned to multiple guys, and all of a sudden there are a lot of things that can go wrong that are out of your control, and it is much easier to send smothering double/triple teams. Every heard of the term "double down"? Its when you blitz guys once they get the ball in the post/paint. When your at the top of the key, can see everyone on the floor and survey the entire field, everything is pretty much in your control at that point, there are no blind spots and less can go wrong.

I think the philosophy at that point in the game is more about "less can go wrong" than "more can go right". Whether or not you agree with it is moot, because there are many coaches out there that do believe in it, and that do employ it nearly every time they are put in that scenario, and they obviously have reasons for it, and its not because they are complete buffoons.

I don't think anyone, including the coaches who routinely run iso's to end the game, would argue that they run those iso's because its the highest probability of a made basket. More that its the highest probably you will get a clean look at the basket, and lowest probability you will turn it over. Driving will get you the higher % looks, but you also have a higher probability of the turnover, and higher probability of getting smothered in the teeth of the defense.

In short, its the safe route. The sketchy route usually has greener pastures on the other end, doesn't it? Doesn't mean its the only route to take and there are perfectly legitimate reasons for taking either one.

Oefarmy2005
08-20-2013, 02:27 PM
Elaborate, please.

Let me rephrase it. Statistically speaking, Kobe has scored the most points in crunch time over the last 5 years based on clutch statistics from 82games.com.

NYKnickFanatic
08-20-2013, 02:28 PM
Gilbert Arenas.

/thread.

b@llhog24
08-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Bird

OlivaThor
08-20-2013, 02:46 PM
BALD Lebron James

/thread.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 02:49 PM
Not saying your not correct, but I think a lot of coaches are hesitant and prefer the safe route, like they do when they choose not to foul when up 3. I think some coaches prefer to take the lesser of the 'worst case scenario' when the game is on the line.

The reason a lot of coaches run into problems is they don't trust their players to run a play, meaning they fear the ball will land in the hands of a guy who has no business shooting it too late in the clock to finish the play. Hence why the teams with the most success in those situations just so happen to be the better teams obviously.

Much easier and lazier to just throw it into your best shot creator and let him force a bad shot than actually run a play that will produce a better shot.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 02:50 PM
Let me rephrase it. Statistically speaking, Kobe has scored the most points in crunch time over the last 5 years based on clutch statistics from 82games.com.

he has also taken exponentially more attempts. When you factor in percentages and efficiency, Kobe is not leading the league at all in clutch play.

b@llhog24
08-20-2013, 02:52 PM
Of all time? Thats a tough question to answer. I'll play it safe and say Shaq.

Shaq really was a phenomenal clutch player.


haha

I felt the same way after reading that.


anyone who even mentions LeBron in this should be banned how many times has this guy come up small in big moments. I know its a lot more then he has come up big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Fjn1j6qdM


1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Whoever the 4th best player in the league is
5. Whoever the 5th best player in the league is

I'd take Cp3 over Bron and KD in the clutch.

ManRam
08-20-2013, 05:25 PM
I'd take Cp3 over Bron and KD in the clutch.

To make a last shot I'd take him over LeBron. To win a game on a final possession, I'm taking LeBron over all of them. He's still the best player in the world, regardless of situation. He scores just as much and just as efficiently in the clutch as those two, but he is actually a far superior passer as well. That matters. I trust him to make the right play in the clutch over anyone else in the league. And I value that slightly over a slightly better ability to make the shot.



Let me rephrase it. Statistically speaking, Kobe has scored the most points in crunch time over the last 5 years based on clutch statistics from 82games.com.

So as long as you get that doesn't necessarily mean he's "statistically the most clutch", then fine.

Doing that while shooting in the high 30 percent range I don't think makes him the most clutch. There's a lot of good volume there, but a ton of bad volume too. The efficiency isn't quite up to snuff with some of the other elites, perhaps because the volume is so high. His ability to make tough shots is unrivaled, but sometimes taking tough shots isn't the best thing he can do.

Oefarmy2005
08-20-2013, 05:27 PM
he has also taken exponentially more attempts. When you factor in percentages and efficiency, Kobe is not leading the league at all in clutch play.

Exactly why I rephrased it. :)

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 07:15 PM
The reason a lot of coaches run into problems is they don't trust their players to run a play, meaning they fear the ball will land in the hands of a guy who has no business shooting it too late in the clock to finish the play. Hence why the teams with the most success in those situations just so happen to be the better teams obviously.

Much easier and lazier to just throw it into your best shot creator and let him force a bad shot than actually run a play that will produce a better shot.

If your not running HOFers out there capable of running a misdirection play on a 5 second time limit and getting the shot they want, wouldn't you prefer guaranteeing your best player is gonna a clean look on the rim, while having the ability to manipulate the clock any which way you want (i.e take the last shot of the game if its tie, give yourself a chance at a tip in if your down)? Sometimes the easier thing is the prudent thing to do. Not everyone can coach Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG or TP, Manu and Duncan.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 07:43 PM
If your not running HOFers out there capable of running a misdirection play on a 5 second time limit and getting the shot they want, wouldn't you prefer guaranteeing your best player is gonna a clean look on the rim, while having the ability to manipulate the clock any which way you want (i.e take the last shot of the game if its tie, give yourself a chance at a tip in if your down)? Sometimes the easier thing is the prudent thing to do. Not everyone can coach Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG or TP, Manu and Duncan.

I just know for a fact, if you have more than 5 seconds left, running a play is more efficient.

amos1er
08-20-2013, 10:19 PM
he literally never spoke of it. I don't think he liked to think about those couple of years.

Ya... Same here, my gramps never spoke much of it either. Some people got book and movie deals and made tons of money. Not him though. Never really wanted to talk fully about it. Made it 96 years and still kicking. We're all very proud.

Kevj77
08-20-2013, 11:32 PM
It would be interesting to know clutch stats on passes. Say Lebron, Kobe or CP3 draws a double team and passes to a wide open player. What is the percentage of those players compared to those guys taking the shot themselves. If they have a higher/lower clutch percentage than their teammates maybe their clutch shot attempts should go up or down depending on that stat.

Does anyone keep that kind of stat?

All-In
08-21-2013, 12:22 AM
anyone who even mentions LeBron in this should be banned how many times has this guy come up small in big moments. I know its a lot more then he has come up big.

So being down 3-2 versus Boston in the ECF and scoring 45 on 73% with 15rebs isn’t clutch…then in GM7 31 and 12…how about GM7 versus INDY scoring 32 and 8rebs…or how about down 3-2 again versus the Spurs scoring 32 11ast 10reb…then GM7 37 and 12….I hear you…he’s had a lot of small moments….2011 finals being one of them…but there has been no one near as clutch of a player as he has been the past 2 years….so most clutch player of all-time…either Russell or MJ….most clutch player today….Lebron

Oefarmy2005
08-21-2013, 09:50 AM
It would be interesting to know clutch stats on passes. Say Lebron, Kobe or CP3 draws a double team and passes to a wide open player. What is the percentage of those players compared to those guys taking the shot themselves. If they have a higher/lower clutch percentage than their teammates maybe their clutch shot attempts should go up or down depending on that stat.

Does anyone keep that kind of stat?

82games keeps asst % as well as asst'd % so you can find it all there.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 10:32 AM
It would be interesting to know clutch stats on passes. Say Lebron, Kobe or CP3 draws a double team and passes to a wide open player. What is the percentage of those players compared to those guys taking the shot themselves. If they have a higher/lower clutch percentage than their teammates maybe their clutch shot attempts should go up or down depending on that stat.

Does anyone keep that kind of stat?

http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT14.HTM

Bron leads in assists pretty easily.

DR_1
08-21-2013, 12:27 PM
king james

:facepalm:

DR_1
08-21-2013, 12:27 PM
MJ and then Kobe

DR_1
08-21-2013, 12:31 PM
Jordan
Dream
Bird
LeBron

And THIS is why your posts hold no credibility whatsoever.

ewmania
08-21-2013, 12:47 PM
why is this even a question lol

michael jordan

Kinkotheclown
08-21-2013, 12:52 PM
Did you just compare me to Hitler?

Only if you are a short, one testicled, bisexual, vegetarian who speaks in a loud voice and has a small mustache and a funny haircut. Lol


Bird
Jordan
Reggie miller
And I am going with Paul Pierce. Unpopular choice I'm sure but he is flat out, scary when the game is close in the 4rth

Kareem/Magic/Lebron/Horry...

It's a good question but very difficult to rank.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-21-2013, 03:26 PM
In my opinion there are only two answers here. Jordan and Bird.


Jordan was asked who he would want taking a last second shot (other than himself). He said Bird.

Pat Riley once said something like If he needed to a last second shot to win a game he would take Jordan but if his life was on the line with the shot he would take Bird.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 03:31 PM
In my opinion there are only two answers here. Jordan and Bird.


Jordan was asked who he would want taking a last second shot (other than himself). He said Bird.

Pat Riley once said something like If he needed to a last second shot to win a game he would take Jordan but if his life was on the line with the shot he would take Bird.

I remember that quote

SLY WILLIAMS
08-21-2013, 03:31 PM
Look at how his fellow players speak about him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rg1sFMxnbM

SLY WILLIAMS
08-21-2013, 03:36 PM
I remember that quote Here it is. I goofed it up a little. :)

If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game, I'd choose Michael Jordan...to take a shot to save my life, I'd take Larry Bird.

lukass
08-21-2013, 08:07 PM
all-time MJ but currently id give it to KD

Bostonjorge
08-21-2013, 11:53 PM
Kobe in the clutch has unlimited range and will always get his shot off. I feel we haven't even seen his best clutch performance yet.

cahawk
08-22-2013, 02:12 AM
MJ
Lebron
Big O
West
Duncan

jerellh528
08-22-2013, 02:45 AM
andrew bynum since people love efficiency lol

Andrew Bynum - Game Within 5 Points With 3:00 or Less Remaining

4th Quarter: 17-21 FG's (80.9%)

Overtime: 6-6 FG's (100%)

Bynum Total: 23-27 FG's (85.2%)


But really, id take mj and kobe, also kd.

jayjay33
08-22-2013, 03:58 AM
Anyone who puts lebron on this list should face a firing squad......that is all.

Oefarmy2005
08-22-2013, 10:09 AM
I have ran some offensive numbers, without going too in-depth it uses the points made and points scored by assists and divides it by the total points possible a player could have scored if he didn't pass and didn't turn the ball over and this is what I got for '12-'13. This is biased toward big men(due to their accuracy) and does not account the number of attempts a player takes - which it probably should. Let's just denote the new stat ES%(Effective Scorring %):

Team *Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl ES%
*NYK *Chandler 33 116 23 10 3.3 0.875 0 0 5.4 84% 10.4 71% 12 0.8 0.4 3.3 0.4 0.841168323
*UTA *Favors 19 55 7 6 3.5 0.75 0 0 3.5 75% 7.9 66% 13.1 0 0 5.2 0.9 0.752380952
*OKC *Martin 30 98 47 23 5.9 0.667 2.9 1 2 100% 12.7 87% 4.4 0.5 0.5 0 1.5 0.724884071
*MIA *Bosh 35 162 119 35 10.4 0.771 1.2 0.5 6.5 90% 22.5 92% 11.3 0.9 1.8 2.1 1.2 0.711894899
*LAL *Nash 26 98 25 12 10.3 0.619 4.4 0.667 5.4 63% 19.1 61% 4.9 8.8 1.5 0 0.5 0.704623979
*BKN *Evans 26 59 14 11 3.3 0.5 0 0 2.5 66% 4.9 50% 18.8 1.6 0 1.6 1.6 0.690198374
*SAC *Thompson 22 55 -9 -8 11.3 0.615 0 0 1.7 50% 14.8 62% 6.1 0.9 0 1.7 0 0.644408429
*TOR *Johnson 45 149 -53 -17 9.3 0.655 0.6 0.5 4.5 71% 15.8 73% 16.1 1.9 1.6 2.6 1.9 0.642779916
*ATL *Horford 36 151 45 14 16.2 0.588 0 0 7.6 58% 23.5 83% 12.4 3.8 1.6 1.6 1.6 0.625615752
*CHI *Noah 32 126 44 17 14.1 0.405 0 0 6.5 88% 17.2 53% 17.9 7.2 1.9 2.7 3.1 0.625017662
*CLE *Varejao 16 69 -16 -11 11.9 0.471 0.7 0 17.5 80% 25.1 87% 17.5 2.1 0.7 0 2.8 0.622441149
*PHO *Tucker 35 95 -15 -8 9.6 0.684 1 0.5 3 66% 15.6 61% 12.1 1 1.5 0.5 1.5 0.622387737
*MIL *Sanders 34 125 75 29 13.5 0.571 0 0 2.7 42% 16.5 60% 16.5 1.9 0 6.2 1.5 0.619774925
*CLE *Thompson 44 143 -23 -8 9 0.667 0 0 6 66% 16.1 61% 13.1 1 1.7 2.3 1.3 0.615265827
*LAC *Paul 27 111 7 3 27.3 0.492 5.2 0.167 26.8 90% 52 3% 6.1 7.4 3.9 1.3 0.9 0.614932842
*PHO *Dragic 39 139 4 1 15.2 0.477 2.4 0.143 11.1 81% 23.9 4% 4.5 6.2 2.1 0 1 0.609921386
*MIA *James 35 161 125 37 28.2 0.442 7.4 0.28 15.2 76% 38.7 19% 15.2 14.9 2.7 0.6 1.5 0.607294903
*GSW *Landry 26 82 -4 -2 13.4 0.652 0 0 4.1 57% 19.8 53% 14.6 1.2 1.7 1.2 1.7 0.606030429
*DAL *Marion 35 111 -11 -5 9.1 0.476 0 0 3.5 75% 11.2 90% 8.6 3.5 1.3 0.4 1.7 0.602595107
*PHI *T.Young 38 120 -12 -5 12 0.633 0.4 0 0.4 0% 15.2 78% 10 0.8 0.8 1.6 4 0.602192947
*DEN *McGee 16 56 17 14 8.5 0.7 0 0 3.4 50% 13.6 71% 9.4 0.9 1.7 0.9 0.9 0.600414857
*SAS *Parker 32 158 31 9 25.8 0.471 2.4 0.5 9.4 80% 33 25% 5.5 7 1.5 0.3 0.6 0.598207266
*NOH *Davis 28 85 -51 -29 11.8 0.571 0 0 11.2 80% 22.5 58% 13.5 1.1 2.2 2.2 1.1 0.595384624
*ORL *Vucevic 34 121 -46 -18 13.9 0.571 0.4 0 2.4 66% 17.5 85% 17.5 1.6 0.8 1.6 0 0.591722458
*UTA *Foye 36 109 -3 -1 8.8 0.45 5.3 0.333 11.9 85% 19.8 77% 2.2 4.4 1.8 2.2 1.3 0.590019273


Now, looking at this list the first two guards that are on this list are K. Marting and S. nash at 3 and 5, but Martin only has 5.9 attempts in clutch time and Nash 10.3. The first three players with 25+ FGA that make the top 25 are Paul 15, James 17 and Parker 22. It looks feasible, except for the missing FGA scaling where people that take more shots in the clutch should be rewarded somewhat. Notable on my full list, Crawford 38, Duncan 47, Wade 58, Bryant 66, Harden 73, Durant 94, Curry 98, Irving 116, Anthony 164. Now this is not perfect, and it heavily relies on the efficiency of the player in the clutch - thus biasing towards big men that don't take many attempts.

el hidalgo
08-22-2013, 10:14 AM
still haven't seen one viable argument for kobe being a great clutch player. every stat proves that he isn't. i guess if you try hard enough to believe something, youll eventually believe it lmao :laugh: who needs proof anyway? :laugh2: :laugh2:

Oefarmy2005
08-22-2013, 10:38 AM
If you are talking to me, than I am telling you that my actual numbers say he isn't clutch at all, or at least not nearly as clutch as I thought he was.

cahawk
08-23-2013, 01:10 AM
kobrick earned his nick name.
Every year kobe is no where near the top in clutch shooting.
And career clutch shooting % has always been bad.
Always taking the last shot & never looking for the best shot...ouch!

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:51 PM
still haven't seen one viable argument for kobe being a great clutch player. every stat proves that he isn't. i guess if you try hard enough to believe something, youll eventually believe it lmao :laugh: who needs proof anyway? :laugh2: :laugh2:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

this is a few years old, but Kobe has done nothing to help his percentages really.

The concerning part of the article, is that the Lakers dropped from 107 points per 100 possession (one of the best in the game) during regular basketball, to 84 points per 100 possessions in the "clutch" time. Why? Because the defense knew it was going to Kobe, he would not pass, and instead was going to shoot. Easy to zone in on one player when you are an NBA defense.

Oefarmy2005
08-23-2013, 04:14 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

this is a few years old, but Kobe has done nothing to help his percentages really.

The concerning part of the article, is that the Lakers dropped from 107 points per 100 possession (one of the best in the game) during regular basketball, to 84 points per 100 possessions in the "clutch" time. Why? Because the defense knew it was going to Kobe, he would not pass, and instead was going to shoot. Easy to zone in on one player when you are an NBA defense.

By the way, based on my formula, Shved was 77th in the clutch last year - not bad considering he is right behind Harden and more clutch than Durant.

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 04:58 PM
last shot of the game...i give it to melo, **** running offense or worrying about the right pass. Melos going to shoot it, and probably make it too. Wade a couple years ago was a good answer, not so much since lebron got here. and i think id sit billups down

Oefarmy2005
08-23-2013, 05:42 PM
last shot of the game...i give it to melo, **** running offense or worrying about the right pass. Melos going to shoot it, and probably make it too. Wade a couple years ago was a good answer, not so much since lebron got here. and i think id sit billups down

Well, than you are screwed. He shot .377 from 2 and .294 from 3 last year in crunch time - not good, not good at all.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 07:44 PM
When Melo was in Denver, there is a reason he led the game in last second attempt percentage.

HIS COACH RAN A FREAKIN PLAY.

Like I continue to say, lazy coaches who just throw it to their best shot creator (unless you are under 3 seconds to go and you have no time for a play, hence it doesn't matter), are going to lose 80% of the time, at a minimum.

archdevil84
08-23-2013, 08:13 PM
last shot of the game i would go to durant or melo and overall i would take bron over anybody.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:13 PM
I have ran some offensive numbers, without going too in-depth it uses the points made and points scored by assists and divides it by the total points possible a player could have scored if he didn't pass and didn't turn the ball over and this is what I got for '12-'13. This is biased toward big men(due to their accuracy) and does not account the number of attempts a player takes - which it probably should. Let's just denote the new stat ES%(Effective Scorring %):

Team *Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl ES%
*NYK *Chandler 33 116 23 10 3.3 0.875 0 0 5.4 84% 10.4 71% 12 0.8 0.4 3.3 0.4 0.841168323
*UTA *Favors 19 55 7 6 3.5 0.75 0 0 3.5 75% 7.9 66% 13.1 0 0 5.2 0.9 0.752380952
*OKC *Martin 30 98 47 23 5.9 0.667 2.9 1 2 100% 12.7 87% 4.4 0.5 0.5 0 1.5 0.724884071
*MIA *Bosh 35 162 119 35 10.4 0.771 1.2 0.5 6.5 90% 22.5 92% 11.3 0.9 1.8 2.1 1.2 0.711894899
*LAL *Nash 26 98 25 12 10.3 0.619 4.4 0.667 5.4 63% 19.1 61% 4.9 8.8 1.5 0 0.5 0.704623979
*BKN *Evans 26 59 14 11 3.3 0.5 0 0 2.5 66% 4.9 50% 18.8 1.6 0 1.6 1.6 0.690198374
*SAC *Thompson 22 55 -9 -8 11.3 0.615 0 0 1.7 50% 14.8 62% 6.1 0.9 0 1.7 0 0.644408429
*TOR *Johnson 45 149 -53 -17 9.3 0.655 0.6 0.5 4.5 71% 15.8 73% 16.1 1.9 1.6 2.6 1.9 0.642779916
*ATL *Horford 36 151 45 14 16.2 0.588 0 0 7.6 58% 23.5 83% 12.4 3.8 1.6 1.6 1.6 0.625615752
*CHI *Noah 32 126 44 17 14.1 0.405 0 0 6.5 88% 17.2 53% 17.9 7.2 1.9 2.7 3.1 0.625017662
*CLE *Varejao 16 69 -16 -11 11.9 0.471 0.7 0 17.5 80% 25.1 87% 17.5 2.1 0.7 0 2.8 0.622441149
*PHO *Tucker 35 95 -15 -8 9.6 0.684 1 0.5 3 66% 15.6 61% 12.1 1 1.5 0.5 1.5 0.622387737
*MIL *Sanders 34 125 75 29 13.5 0.571 0 0 2.7 42% 16.5 60% 16.5 1.9 0 6.2 1.5 0.619774925
*CLE *Thompson 44 143 -23 -8 9 0.667 0 0 6 66% 16.1 61% 13.1 1 1.7 2.3 1.3 0.615265827
*LAC *Paul 27 111 7 3 27.3 0.492 5.2 0.167 26.8 90% 52 3% 6.1 7.4 3.9 1.3 0.9 0.614932842
*PHO *Dragic 39 139 4 1 15.2 0.477 2.4 0.143 11.1 81% 23.9 4% 4.5 6.2 2.1 0 1 0.609921386
*MIA *James 35 161 125 37 28.2 0.442 7.4 0.28 15.2 76% 38.7 19% 15.2 14.9 2.7 0.6 1.5 0.607294903
*GSW *Landry 26 82 -4 -2 13.4 0.652 0 0 4.1 57% 19.8 53% 14.6 1.2 1.7 1.2 1.7 0.606030429
*DAL *Marion 35 111 -11 -5 9.1 0.476 0 0 3.5 75% 11.2 90% 8.6 3.5 1.3 0.4 1.7 0.602595107
*PHI *T.Young 38 120 -12 -5 12 0.633 0.4 0 0.4 0% 15.2 78% 10 0.8 0.8 1.6 4 0.602192947
*DEN *McGee 16 56 17 14 8.5 0.7 0 0 3.4 50% 13.6 71% 9.4 0.9 1.7 0.9 0.9 0.600414857
*SAS *Parker 32 158 31 9 25.8 0.471 2.4 0.5 9.4 80% 33 25% 5.5 7 1.5 0.3 0.6 0.598207266
*NOH *Davis 28 85 -51 -29 11.8 0.571 0 0 11.2 80% 22.5 58% 13.5 1.1 2.2 2.2 1.1 0.595384624
*ORL *Vucevic 34 121 -46 -18 13.9 0.571 0.4 0 2.4 66% 17.5 85% 17.5 1.6 0.8 1.6 0 0.591722458
*UTA *Foye 36 109 -3 -1 8.8 0.45 5.3 0.333 11.9 85% 19.8 77% 2.2 4.4 1.8 2.2 1.3 0.590019273


Now, looking at this list the first two guards that are on this list are K. Marting and S. nash at 3 and 5, but Martin only has 5.9 attempts in clutch time and Nash 10.3. The first three players with 25+ FGA that make the top 25 are Paul 15, James 17 and Parker 22. It looks feasible, except for the missing FGA scaling where people that take more shots in the clutch should be rewarded somewhat. Notable on my full list, Crawford 38, Duncan 47, Wade 58, Bryant 66, Harden 73, Durant 94, Curry 98, Irving 116, Anthony 164. Now this is not perfect, and it heavily relies on the efficiency of the player in the clutch - thus biasing towards big men that don't take many attempts.

Hey Oefarmy,
Thanx for all the work you put into this. I encourage anyone and everyone who feels like they have at least a decent understanding of this "table"; to chime in on both its underlying validity AND its results.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:19 PM
I don't know; but I wonder if we shouldn't have two SEPARATE discussions about this:
1) big Stars;
2) role players.

About the big Stars. Can it be relatively conclusively proven that the basically all of the members of the All-Time Top 10 were NOT clutch - why would they be so great yet somehow decidedly less great with the game on the line. I think they were probably pretty-much equally great; I'm not so sure it could be proved that some of them were not.

About Kobe in particular. I accept that stats-wise he is NOT clutch; or in other words, that a number of guys shoot a better percent. On the other hand, somebody here (iirc it was amos1er) pointed out 3 things:
Kobe's super-high degree-of-difficulty on those shots ATTEMPTS; SPLUS
his automaticity (did I invent this word? hehe) in willingness to even attempt them; AND
his ability to hit from almost anywhere - that counts for more than a little - better any chance than none.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 08:19 PM
Hey Oefarmy,
Thanx for all the work you put into this. I encourage anyone and everyone who feels like they have at least a decent understanding of this "table"; to chime in on both its underlying validity AND its results.

do you know where to find this? My fellow puppies fan copied and pasted this.

If you are not adversed in advanced stats, and would like to see the sites, let me, or a handful of others here know..

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 08:23 PM
I don't know; but I wonder if we shouldn't have two SEPARATE discussions about this:
1) big Stars;
2) role players.

About the big Stars. Can it be relatively conclusively proven that the basically all of the members of the All-Time Top 10 were NOT clutch - why would they be so great yet somehow decidedly less great with the game on the line. I think they were probably pretty-much equally great; I'm not so sure it could be proved that some of them were not.

About Kobe in particular. I accept that stats-wise he is NOT clutch; or in other words, that a number of guys shoot a better percent. On the other hand, somebody here (iirc it was amos1er) pointed out 3 things:
Kobe's super-high degree-of-difficulty on those shots ATTEMPTS; SPLUS
his automaticity (did I invent this word? hehe) in willingness to even attempt them; AND
his ability to hit from almost anywhere - that counts for more than a little - better any chance than none.

Let me respond with 3 counters...

The last thing a coach/teammate/fan should want is their team depending on an acrobatic shot to win. That means one of two things: Play broke down, or the player has tunnel vision. Which leads me to my next point..

Having tunnel vision is why the Lakers points per 100 possessions dropped over the years from 107/100, to 84/100. The Lakers, when down with under 20 seconds to go, lost the large majority of the games, because everyone in the universe knew what was going to happen, which is easy to plan for.

Again, at what point does selective memory stop? The REASON so many claim Kobe is the most clutch, is that he has hit the most game winners. But what they fail to realize, is that he has also exponentially MISSED the most game winners. His team sputters in those moments, his coach attempted to do something about it, but was incapable, despite being Jordan's coach.

Fact is, anyone who selects Kobe is using selective memory, instead of results.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:24 PM
do you know where to find this? My fellow puppies fan copied and pasted this.

If you are not adversed in advanced stats, and would like to see the sites, let me, or a handful of others here know..

Hey Hawk,
On your first two sentences (on the first line): I don't have any idea what you just said. If I were to attempt to guess i'd probably guess wrong and just use up a bunch of space. Would you please try again on this?

On my attitude towards advanced stats: I admit to being a relative newbie and do consider it a weakness (my 55 years of "eye-test" monster-trump my virtual zero grasp of advanced stats). So, by all means, if you and any and all qualified others would care to teach me: believe me, I'M ALL EYES/EARS.
Thanx tremendously in advance,
Pablo
P.S. I did recently discover the advanced stats forum/thread; and DID ask for this type of guidance. iirc this was in direct response to something Chronz said. I had seen him state what he considers to be the 4 or 5 key advanced stats somewhere in the threads; but before I wrote them down; I had moved on and couldn't find his post with them.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:27 PM
Let me respond with 3 counters...

The last thing a coach/teammate/fan should want is their team depending on an acrobatic shot to win. That means one of two things: Play broke down, or the player has tunnel vision. Which leads me to my next point..

Having tunnel vision is why the Lakers points per 100 possessions dropped over the years from 107/100, to 84/100. The Lakers, when down with under 20 seconds to go, lost the large majority of the games, because everyone in the universe knew what was going to happen, which is easy to plan for.

Again, at what point does selective memory stop? The REASON so many claim Kobe is the most clutch, is that he has hit the most game winners. But what they fail to realize, is that he has also exponentially MISSED the most game winners. His team sputters in those moments, his coach attempted to do something about it, but was incapable, despite being Jordan's coach.

Fact is, anyone who selects Kobe is using selective memory, instead of results.

Hey Hawk,
Thanx for this well-reasoned, patient, non-sectarian explanation. Coming from you it doesn't surprise me; you're both very knowledgeable and much better-than-average in the patience department.
Pablo

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:32 PM
To help those who might want to attempt to guide me into the world of advanced stats.
What I have experience with are I have for several years visited some sites that use them (for example: basketball-reference).

But, OUR advanced stats thread lists like 30 sites; and I wouldn't even know which ones I should visit first because I'd rather have a decent "chronological order of discovery" list first; i.e., what are THE key advanced stats; which do you recommend I "conquer" first; and where is the clearest explanation of each one.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:38 PM
Let me respond with 3 counters...

The last thing a coach/teammate/fan should want is their team depending on an acrobatic shot to win. That means one of two things: Play broke down, or the player has tunnel vision. Which leads me to my next point..

Having tunnel vision is why the Lakers points per 100 possessions dropped over the years from 107/100, to 84/100. The Lakers, when down with under 20 seconds to go, lost the large majority of the games, because everyone in the universe knew what was going to happen, which is easy to plan for.

Again, at what point does selective memory stop? The REASON so many claim Kobe is the most clutch, is that he has hit the most game winners. But what they fail to realize, is that he has also exponentially MISSED the most game winners. His team sputters in those moments, his coach attempted to do something about it, but was incapable, despite being Jordan's coach.

Fact is, anyone who selects Kobe is using selective memory, instead of results.

Hey Hawk,
Given that I await attempts to refute your points; I'll respond in the meantime.

All of what you say seems quite reasonable; and flows from point to point.

What hit home most was this: even for the many Lakers games I've watched, what has sticked in my memory most about clutch moments were NOT the majority with missed opportunities; BUT YES the small minority of (mostly Kobe) MADE clutch shots - because those DO make the highlight shows/reels and the misses of course don't. Kind of like, the great majority of misses have been hidden in plain view. (I am NOT saying this was intentional deception; just naturally fulfilling fans desire to see exciting game-winners as opposed to lots more game not-winners.)

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 08:42 PM
Let me respond with 3 counters...

The last thing a coach/teammate/fan should want is their team depending on an acrobatic shot to win. That means one of two things: Play broke down, or the player has tunnel vision. Which leads me to my next point..

Having tunnel vision is why the Lakers points per 100 possessions dropped over the years from 107/100, to 84/100. The Lakers, when down with under 20 seconds to go, lost the large majority of the games, because everyone in the universe knew what was going to happen, which is easy to plan for.

Again, at what point does selective memory stop? The REASON so many claim Kobe is the most clutch, is that he has hit the most game winners. But what they fail to realize, is that he has also exponentially MISSED the most game winners. His team sputters in those moments, his coach attempted to do something about it, but was incapable, despite being Jordan's coach.

Fact is, anyone who selects Kobe is using selective memory, instead of results.

Hey Hawk,
Is this dramatic drop in scoring per possession during clutch time for the Lakers DECIDEDLY WORSE than for other teams?

b@llhog24
08-25-2013, 10:40 PM
To make a last shot I'd take him over LeBron. To win a game on a final possession, I'm taking LeBron over all of them. He's still the best player in the world, regardless of situation. He scores just as much and just as efficiently in the clutch as those two, but he is actually a far superior passer as well. That matters. I trust him to make the right play in the clutch over anyone else in the league. And I value that slightly over a slightly better ability to make the shot.




So as long as you get that doesn't necessarily mean he's "statistically the most clutch", then fine.

Doing that while shooting in the high 30 percent range I don't think makes him the most clutch. There's a lot of good volume there, but a ton of bad volume too. The efficiency isn't quite up to snuff with some of the other elites, perhaps because the volume is so high. His ability to make tough shots is unrivaled, but sometimes taking tough shots isn't the best thing he can do.

No chance.

Oefarmy2005
08-26-2013, 12:30 PM
do you know where to find this? My fellow puppies fan copied and pasted this.

If you are not adversed in advanced stats, and would like to see the sites, let me, or a handful of others here know..

Well, sort of. I also made a formula to try and actually rank the players somewhat reasonably based on regular stats rather than advanced stats - which sort of made it an advanced stat. :)

SportsFanatic10
08-26-2013, 04:21 PM
lebron
durant
paul
wade
melo
pierce
kobe

out of current players, any of those options in no order are great. depends on the situation who i'd pick to be honest. example last 2-5 min lebron for sure. only like 2-5 seconds left one of durant/kobe/pierce/melo. 10 seconds left or so wade or paul.

Hawkeye15
08-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Well, sort of. I also made a formula to try and actually rank the players somewhat reasonably based on regular stats rather than advanced stats - which sort of made it an advanced stat. :)

so you created your own advanced stat....

You and KnB are leading the new PSD movement

amos1er
08-27-2013, 03:42 AM
andrew bynum since people love efficiency lol

Andrew Bynum - Game Within 5 Points With 3:00 or Less Remaining

4th Quarter: 17-21 FG's (80.9%)

Overtime: 6-6 FG's (100%)

Bynum Total: 23-27 FG's (85.2%)


But really, id take mj and kobe, also kd.

Lol. Excellent point. According to that, Bynum is the most clutch player in the NBA. Haha Just goes to show that when evaluating stats, one must also use a great deal of perspective if they are to arrive at the best conclusion. You can't just look at some advanced stats and act like that is the end all be all just because some numbers appear to make sense when applied to a formula on paper, yet are removed from actual real life context. One must actually have some in depth knowledge of the game as well. Thats where the people on this site begin to lose credibility. Even Phil Jackson knew this to be true as he was quoted by saying he feels more in a product he can see feel and touch rather than just evaluating statistics and crunching numbers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg His 11 rings should really prove without a doubt that his methods are the best. How many stat masters out there can really claim even one championship on their resume? Serious question people...

Even Einstein had to prove his theory of general relativity by waiting for a real life solar eclipse to prove that "time space" actually existed even though it looked good on paper. When one of these stat geeks actually can prove that these advanced statistical formulas are good for something more than internet forum debate (like winning actual championships) then I will take them seriously. Until then, it's all a bunch of hooey as far as I'm concerned.

Oefarmy2005
08-27-2013, 12:28 PM
Lol. Excellent point. According to that, Bynum is the most clutch player in the NBA. Haha Just goes to show that when evaluating stats, one must also use a great deal of perspective if they are to arrive at the best conclusion. You can't just look at some advanced stats and act like that is the end all be all just because some numbers appear to make sense when applied to a formula on paper, yet are removed from actual real life context. One must actually have some in depth knowledge of the game as well. Thats where the people on this site begin to lose credibility. Even Phil Jackson knew this to be true as he was quoted by saying he feels more in a product he can see feel and touch rather than just evaluating statistics and crunching numbers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg His 11 rings should really prove without a doubt that his methods are the best. How many stat masters out there can really claim even one championship on their resume? Serious question people...

Even Einstein had to prove his theory of general relativity by waiting for a real life solar eclipse to prove that "time space" actually existed even though it looked good on paper. When one of these stat geeks actually can prove that these advanced statistical formulas are good for something more than internet forum debate (like winning actual championships) then I will take them seriously. Until then, it's all a bunch of hooey as far as I'm concerned.

I have mentioned that any stat involving FG% will be biased towards big men since they shoot such a high % and are always in close and some big men are much more "clutch" than Bynam. Lebron and Paul are by far the most clutch players in the league - especially considering that they either create their own shot or set up someone else, where big men get set up 90% of the time.

JeremiahWing
08-27-2013, 12:40 PM
Reggie Miller.

amos1er
08-27-2013, 04:44 PM
I have mentioned that any stat involving FG% will be biased towards big men since they shoot such a high % and are always in close and some big men are much more "clutch" than Bynam. Lebron and Paul are by far the most clutch players in the league - especially considering that they either create their own shot or set up someone else, where big men get set up 90% of the time.

So you think Lebron and Paul are better than Kobe at creating their own shot? You just made me spit up my drink all over the keyboard. Lol

You don't think that Lebron being surrounded by a specific taylor made team (5 guys who all shoot over 40% from 3 and a top 5 and top 15 player) allows him to clear the space he needs to drive to the hoop with as little resistance as possible. Greatly differing from Kobe who is the one that allows for the players on his team the opportunities to free up for "set up" opportunities. Unlike Lebron who relies on his super elite 3 point shooters and hall of fame running mates to spread the floor for him. Therefore are you really surprised that Lebron and CP3 have a higher individual efficiency rate than Kobe? Kobe is the one creating the opportunity either for himself, or for his teammates, while Lebron and CP3 are using set plays and drawing off the strengths of others to get the opportunities they need to win the game. Kobe truly is the backbone of his teams... Much like Jordan was. Completely different from the "Lebron System".

Verbal Christ
08-27-2013, 10:10 PM
Big Shot Bob

sammyvine
08-28-2013, 06:00 AM
durant,melo, kobe, lebron

Pablonovi
08-28-2013, 08:24 AM
lebron
durant
paul
wade
melo
pierce
kobe

out of current players, any of those options in no order are great. depends on the situation who i'd pick to be honest. example last 2-5 min lebron for sure. only like 2-5 seconds left one of durant/kobe/pierce/melo. 10 seconds left or so wade or paul.

Hey SportsFanatic,
Thanx for sharing you're thinking on this. Very interesting.
For myself, all I can say is that I would have agreed with you UNTIL ...
UNTIL I take up a serious study advanced stats and see how much they bend my position.
I AM starting to study them. I have no idea how much I'll grasp; how much I'll retain; or how much it might influence me. But I'm thirsty to find out.

Speaking of which,
Hey High Horse,
If you see this, could you repeat your list of 4 or 5 Key advanced stats?

Thanx all who are (offering to) help(ing) me with the advanced stats!
You know who you are; and I know where you live (NOT) hehe.

Pablonovi
08-28-2013, 08:32 AM
Lol. Excellent point. According to that, Bynum is the most clutch player in the NBA. Haha Just goes to show that when evaluating stats, one must also use a great deal of perspective if they are to arrive at the best conclusion. You can't just look at some advanced stats and act like that is the end all be all just because some numbers appear to make sense when applied to a formula on paper, yet are removed from actual real life context. One must actually have some in depth knowledge of the game as well. Thats where the people on this site begin to lose credibility. Even Phil Jackson knew this to be true as he was quoted by saying he feels more in a product he can see feel and touch rather than just evaluating statistics and crunching numbers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBZb_X5qjMg His 11 rings should really prove without a doubt that his methods are the best. How many stat masters out there can really claim even one championship on their resume? Serious question people...

Even Einstein had to prove his theory of general relativity by waiting for a real life solar eclipse to prove that "time space" actually existed even though it looked good on paper. When one of these stat geeks actually can prove that these advanced statistical formulas are good for something more than internet forum debate (like winning actual championships) then I will take them seriously. Until then, it's all a bunch of hooey as far as I'm concerned.

Hey Amos1er,
I like people with strong opinions who are willing to fight to defend them. (btw, Not saying this applies to you; but I like people even more who are willing to adjust said opinions IF faced with legitimate arguments.) hehe

And so, I keep trying hard to like your posts, any of them will do for a starter (hehe - please take what I say with a huge grain of salt - I'm full of crap lots of the time, afterall).

So I was really digging what you were saying about Einstein. And then you went and "ruined" it; or at least confused me again big time; but referring to "a bunch of hooey". Actually, I should admit I'm not really sure I remember (If I even really knew) what the heck "hooey" means? But if you're saying that an as yet unproven theory is hooey; then, as Daryl and Oats said, "I can't go for that". Why not. Well, for sure, until it's proven; it's unproven (genius that I am; I get that much at least)! But, a theory could seem awfully good and for good reasons even though it might not, as yet, have been proven (fully).

I'm guessing that advanced stats already have some decent cred; despite being relatively new enough to maybe lack serious having-been-proven. Generally, you ARE more sure of things than I think I am? hehe

b@llhog24
08-28-2013, 08:59 AM
Hey SportsFanatic,
Thanx for sharing you're thinking on this. Very interesting.
For myself, all I can say is that I would have agreed with you UNTIL ...
UNTIL I take up a serious study advanced stats and see how much they bend my position.
I AM starting to study them. I have no idea how much I'll grasp; how much I'll retain; or how much it might influence me. But I'm thirsty to find out.

They're generalot sound choices based on my eye tests/articles/stats I've read. Although their may be one or two outlinere.


Speaking of which,
Hey High Horse,
If you see this, could you repeat your list of 4 or 5 Key advanced stats?

Thanx all who are (offering to) help(ing) me with the advanced stats!
You know who you are; and I know where you live (NOT) hehe.

Have no idea what Chronz told you but:

Scoring efficiency: TS%=PPP> eFG%>whatever other basic rates you'd have.

Overall offense uses the aforementioned metrics plus Offensive Rating (ortg) which is usually combined with usage rates. Offensive win shares and win shares overall are valuable but let it be known that defensive win shares can be inflated based on your defensive support. Like a player with an Ortg rating of 115 and a usage rate of 27% is generally more valuable than a player witg an Ortg of 126 with a usage rate of 15%.

Also there's really no defensive metric readily available that really encapsulates defense at the accuracy that it does offense. Your best bet would be combining all of them with the eye test (if it's available) articles and whatever other resources you have at your disposal to you to help to paint a clearer picture.

b@llhog24
08-28-2013, 09:12 AM
Lol my post is lil ****ed up and I'm on my phone. If there's need for further clarification, just say so.

BULLSFAN0810
08-28-2013, 10:08 AM
Jordan , Magic, Bird , Miller , Kobe

Ballperiodicals
08-28-2013, 11:40 AM
MJ , melo has more last possession game winning shots then kobe so no need for his name to be listed

Pablonovi
08-28-2013, 03:21 PM
They're generalot sound choices based on my eye tests/articles/stats I've read. Although their may be one or two outlinere.



Have no idea what Chronz told you but:

Scoring efficiency: TS%=PPP> eFG%>whatever other basic rates you'd have.

Overall offense uses the aforementioned metrics plus Offensive Rating (ortg) which is usually combined with usage rates. Offensive win shares and win shares overall are valuable but let it be known that defensive win shares can be inflated based on your defensive support. Like a player with an Ortg rating of 115 and a usage rate of 27% is generally more valuable than a player witg an Ortg of 126 with a usage rate of 15%.

Also there's really no defensive metric readily available that really encapsulates defense at the accuracy that it does offense. Your best bet would be combining all of them with the eye test (if it's available) articles and whatever other resources you have at your disposal to you to help to paint a clearer picture.

Hey b@llhog24,
Thanx a great deal for you "attentive care" of my advanced-infancy. The first thing that confused me though is: How could you be answering for "SportsFanatic" are you guys like the Beatles, "I am he and you are me and we are all together. (chu guub a chub)" (more or less).

I'm gonna copy your post and keep eye-balling it; we'll see how much sinks in.

Q: When you said this: "TS%=PPP> eFG%>whatever other basic rates you'd have"; that meant that True Shooting Percentage is about equally valuable to points per possession; and both are better than ... ; yes?

Yes, I had frequently heard that there's no (not yet) any defensive advanced stat that quite measures up to the best offensive ones.

I imagine I missed completely what point you were trying to make about defensive shares being warped; while what you wrote next seemed to be only about offensive comparisons. (Please tell me I didn't really miss this; "man up" and claim responsibility for this particular cellular snafu - hehe)

Again, mucho thanx,
Pablo

Clippersfan86
08-28-2013, 03:23 PM
Chris Paul currently is IMO. Not only one of the top 5 clutch shot MAKERS but is incredible at creating clutch situations for teammates. I remember not this last season but the one before the guy hit like 6 game winners and countless times led us to close wins. If you're talking purely about hitting a shot... Dirk, Kyrie and Durant stand out.

tripleplay2007
08-28-2013, 03:38 PM
Robert Horry AKA, (Big Shot Bob)

b@llhog24
08-29-2013, 09:18 AM
Hey b@llhog24,
Thanx a great deal for you "attentive care" of my advanced-infancy.

No prob. Somebody had to help me, so it's nice to return the favor.


The first thing that confused me though is: How could you be answering for "SportsFanatic" are you guys like the Beatles, "I am he and you are me and we are all together. (chu guub a chub)" (more or less).

Lol nah. It's how the multi-quote function works on the mobile app.


I'm gonna copy your post and keep eye-balling it; we'll see how much sinks in.

Q: When you said this: "TS%=PPP> eFG%>whatever other basic rates you'd have"; that meant that True Shooting Percentage is about equally valuable to points per possession; and both are better than ... ; yes?

TS and PPP are similar formulas. PPP stands for points per possession, which is self-explanatory. It calculates the amount of a points a player is responsible for every 100 possessions.

Here's the formula here (http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/inside-the-numbers/points-per-possession-pop-up.html).

TS differentiates the scoring value of twos, threes and "skilled" free throws. The reasons it doesn't account for all free throws is because those shot after non skilled/foul drawing aspects such as technicals don't really tell us much about a player's ability so the .44 multiplier is used to eradicate such free throws.

Here's the formula here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_shooting_percentage)

All of them are better than eFG % (effective field goal percentage) which doens't incorporate free throws but realizes that a player who shot 2/6 with all the makes being three pointers and a player who shot 3/6 with all the makes being twos; essentially scored the same amount of points on the same amount of shots. Here's the formula. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html)

And all of your other basic rates: FT%, FG%, 3P% are in the bottom tier. (They still have some sort of use mind you, like you can’t look at TS by itself and find out who’s the better three point shooter. Tyson Chandler *cough* *cough*)


Yes, I had frequently heard that there's no (not yet) any defensive advanced stat that quite measures up to the best offensive ones.

I imagine I missed completely what point you were trying to make about defensive shares being warped; while what you wrote next seemed to be only about offensive comparisons. (Please tell me I didn't really miss this; "man up" and claim responsibility for this particular cellular snafu - hehe)

Wish I had the article handy, but let's put it like this. Carlos Boozer in 2009-2010 and 2011-2012seasons was ranked within the top 10 for defensive win shares. Even the most homeristic Bulls fan would call Booz a top 100 defender in the Nba. But the he's surround by such good defenders that his defensive win shares are inflated as a result, Drtg suffers from this shortcoming as well.


Again, mucho thanx,
Pablo

:cheers: