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DreamShaker
08-17-2013, 05:22 PM
My deepest apologies if it has been done any time recently. Since it is such a broad subject, we will make it 3 teams, and you can fudge positions if you please. All time, at their best, who were the greatest defenders at their positions ever, all d team format?

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 05:51 PM
yikes, I need to do some research on this one haha

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 06:10 PM
team 1-
payton
mj
pippen
timmy or rodman
russell

team 2-
fraizer
dj
artest
timmy or rodman(the loser of above)
hakeem

team 3-
stockton
squid
bowen
kg
thurmond

off the top of my head,i need to do research for better foray into this

Hustla23
08-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Walt Frazier
Iman Shumpert
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 06:28 PM
team 1-
payton
mj
pippen
timmy or rodman
russell

team 2-
fraizer
dj
bird
timmy or rodman(the loser of above)
hakeem

team 3-
stockton
squid
lebron
kg
thurmond

off the top of my head,i need to do research for better foray into this

Nice list, but I would put Garnett about Duncan. Timmy kinda got lit up by top scoring PFs in the playoffs throughout his career, I feel like he was more a team defensive impact guy more than a straight shut down as well like KG. KG might also be the best defensive communicator of all time, or maybe he just doesn't shut up :D

I'd also put LeBron on the second team, as his proven shut down ability in stretches would give him a bonus on top of his lane playing and chase down block abilities. The homer in me would put Frazier over Payton, but that's also because he dismantled Jerry West in the Finals so I think that's a nice accent to his defensive career. Plus, he's a pimp.

This is really hard to do off the top of the head, you whipped up a nice list quick.

TheMightyHumph
08-17-2013, 06:28 PM
Tough to make a team. There are guys like DeBusschere, Jerry West, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks. Wilt, Gus Johnson, Bruce Bowen, Michael Ray, Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Buck Williams.

Don't believe Bird belongs amongst them.

jkcronyn
08-17-2013, 06:32 PM
Walt Frazier
Iman Shumpert
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon

haha

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 06:38 PM
Nice list, but I would put Garnett about Duncan. Timmy kinda got lit up by top scoring PFs in the playoffs throughout his career, I feel like he was more a team defensive impact guy more than a straight shut down as well like KG. KG might also be the best defensive communicator of all time, or maybe he just doesn't shut up :D

I'd also put LeBron on the second team, as his proven shut down ability in stretches would give him a bonus on top of his lane playing and chase down block abilities. The homer in me would put Frazier over Payton, but that's also because he dismantled Jerry West in the Finals so I think that's a nice accent to his defensive career. Plus, he's a pimp.

This is really hard to do off the top of the head, you whipped up a nice list quick.
you bring up good points ,i might have to change a few of them

Tough to make a team. There are guys like DeBusschere, Jerry West, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks. Wilt, Gus Johnson, Bruce Bowen, Michael Ray, Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Buck Williams.

Don't believe Bird belongs amongst them.
it is tough,you also have defensive specialty guys like wallace,sloan,van lier,artest,cooper,deke,ect.

Heediot
08-17-2013, 06:47 PM
Y'all sleeping on Mutombo.

Lakersfan2483
08-17-2013, 06:51 PM
Team A:

PG: Gary Payton
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Scottie Pippen
PF: Dennis Rodman
C: Bill Russell

Team B:

PG: Walt Frazier
SG: S. Moncrief
SF: Alvin Robertson
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Hakeem Olajuwon

Team C:

PG: Oscar Robertson
SG: Kobe Bryant
Sf: Lebron James
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Wilt Chamberlain or Mt. Mutombo. still undecided. People don't realize the type of force Wilt was on defense!

Honorable Mention: Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing, Jerry West, Nate Thurmond and Michael Cooper

Knickerbockers
08-17-2013, 07:00 PM
Payton/Kidd
Jordan/Kobe
LBJ/Pippen/Bowen
Garnett/Rodman
Duncan/Mutumbo/Kareem/Robinson/Olajuwon/Ben Wallace

IKnowHoops
08-17-2013, 07:05 PM
PG Payton
SG Jordan
SF Lebron
PF Olajuwon
C DRob

Bostonjorge
08-17-2013, 10:37 PM
G jordan
G kobe
F pippen
F KG
C Wallace

DreamShaker
08-18-2013, 01:36 AM
My rough list would be...

1ST
GP
MJ
Pippen
KG
Bill Russell

2ND
Walt Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Rodman
Duncan
Hakeem

3RD
Michael Cooper
Kidd
Lebron
Ben Wallace
Mutombo

5ass
08-18-2013, 02:29 AM
Duncan? Come on

5ass
08-18-2013, 02:35 AM
Payton
MJ
Bowen
KG
Russell

Minimal
08-18-2013, 03:50 AM
PG - Payton
SG - Jordan
SF - LeBron
PF - Garnett
C - Olajuwon

Shlumpledink
08-18-2013, 04:26 AM
Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Duncan
Olajuwon

Goat

leprechaun5
08-18-2013, 04:27 AM
First team
PG - Payton
SG- MJ
SF - Lebron/Pippen
PF - KG/Duncan
C - Ben Wallace/DH12

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 06:25 AM
Bird? No, McHale was 3x the defender Bird was
Moncrief? No, one of my favorite players, and at peak, real good, but not enough years
Duncan? No, KG in this era, forget DWS, use the eyes
DRob? Close, but not top 3?

I'll be back later with two lists. One pre ABA merger and one post, with some honorable

Here are some guys to chew on:

Cowens
Jo Jo White
Havlicek
P. Silas
Camby
Sloan
McHale
Yao
Bobby Jones

DreamShaker
08-18-2013, 11:05 AM
Bird? No, McHale was 3x the defender Bird was
Moncrief? No, one of my favorite players, and at peak, real good, but not enough years
Duncan? No, KG in this era, forget DWS, use the eyes
DRob? Close, but not top 3?

I'll be back later with two lists. One pre ABA merger and one post, with some honorable

Here are some guys to chew on:

Cowens
Jo Jo White
Havlicek
P. Silas
Camby
Sloan
McHale
Yao
Bobby Jones

You think Yao was a better defender than Alonzo Mourning? Curious question. His reputation is all over the place.

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 11:21 AM
You think Yao was a better defender than Alonzo Mourning? Curious question. His reputation is all over the place.

No, I don't I just listed some names that have not been mentioned, that's it. The guys I listed are at best 3rd team, but more likely 6th or 8th team (unless we split at the ABA merger). Appreciation of the past more than anything,

Captain Moroni
08-18-2013, 11:35 AM
This is hard to do because some big names would not be on it.

Ben Wallace and Mutumbo would instantly Eliminate Every other Center in the NBA. No Hakeem, No Ewing, No, Russell, KG, Duncan, Robinson etc.

Guy's like Bruce Bowen, Anthony Mason, Noah, would probably be on there somewhere

Captain Moroni
08-18-2013, 11:37 AM
Do we compensate for ERA in this discussion. Obviously even the worst of defenders today would be awesome defenders 50 years ago because of the change in defensive philosiphy.

Imagine Monta Ellis in 1955, he would be stealing the ball 10 times a game easy.

DreamShaker
08-18-2013, 02:52 PM
Do we compensate for ERA in this discussion. Obviously even the worst of defenders today would be awesome defenders 50 years ago because of the change in defensive philosiphy.

Imagine Monta Ellis in 1955, he would be stealing the ball 10 times a game easy.

I personally think it should be judged by what they did with who they played against, because anything else is speculation. So level of performance regardless of era.

DreamShaker
08-18-2013, 02:57 PM
No, I don't I just listed some names that have not been mentioned, that's it. The guys I listed are at best 3rd team, but more likely 6th or 8th team (unless we split at the ABA merger). Appreciation of the past more than anything,

Gotcha. Im looking forward to your list. I really respect your take on things.

Hondo is a guy I hear a lot about as well as Satch and Sam Jones. Was he the best out of those three?

Bruno
08-18-2013, 03:27 PM
Duncan? Come on

twenty games into next season he'll be second all time in total defensive win-shares behind only bill russell.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

Bruno
08-18-2013, 03:30 PM
Bird? No, McHale was 3x the defender Bird was
Moncrief? No, one of my favorite players, and at peak, real good, but not enough years
Duncan? No, KG in this era, forget DWS, use the eyes
DRob? Close, but not top 3?

I'll be back later with two lists. One pre ABA merger and one post, with some honorable

Here are some guys to chew on:

Cowens
Jo Jo White
Havlicek
P. Silas
Camby
Sloan
McHale
Yao
Bobby Jones
how come?

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 03:56 PM
Gotcha. Im looking forward to your list. I really respect your take on things.

Hondo is a guy I hear a lot about as well as Satch and Sam Jones. Was he the best out of those three?

Don't forget KC Jones.

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 04:02 PM
This is hard to do because some big names would not be on it.

Ben Wallace and Mutumbo would instantly Eliminate Every other Center in the NBA. No Hakeem, No Ewing, No, Russell, KG, Duncan, Robinson etc.

Guy's like Bruce Bowen, Anthony Mason, Noah, would probably be on there somewhere

Wilt is easily the better defender than Ben Wallace and Deke.

abe_froman
08-18-2013, 04:22 PM
Wilt is easily the better defender than Ben Wallace and Deke.

how so?

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 04:36 PM
how so?

How so? By being the better defensive player.

What explanation would you like?

abe_froman
08-18-2013, 04:40 PM
How so? By being the better defensive player.

What explanation would you like?
well in saying so bold i thought you'd have something to back up that claim with.i'm not saying wilt is a bad defender,but to easily be better than 2 who are widely regarded as being in the convo of the greatest defenders of all time,you might want something more than just your say

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 04:49 PM
well in saying so bold i thought you'd have something to back up that claim with.i'm not saying wilt is a bad defender,but to easily be better than 2 who are widely regarded as being in the convo of the greatest defenders of all time,you might want something more than just your say

Again, what's to say? Wilt was a better shotblocker than either of them, and a better straight up defender than either of them.

abe_froman
08-18-2013, 04:56 PM
Again, what's to say? Wilt was a better shotblocker than either of them, and a better straight up defender than either of them.
so all you have to go on is "because you say so" ,thats a very weak argument for your case.i'm interested in hearing why you believe this,but if you have nothing than whats the point

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 05:01 PM
so all you have to go on is "because you say so" ,thats a very weak argument for your case.i'm interested in hearing why you believe this,but if you have nothing than whats the point

I'm not trying to make an argument.

I'm telling you what is a fact.

You can choose to believe it or not.

Of course, I saw all three play

Captain Moroni
08-18-2013, 05:13 PM
I'm not trying to make an argument.

I'm telling you what is a fact.

You can choose to believe it or not.

Of course, I saw all three play

So your lay opnion backed up by nothing is fact. ok.

Captain Moroni
08-18-2013, 05:14 PM
i saw all three play as well. Mutumbo might be better. fact. lol

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 05:17 PM
i saw all three play as well. Mutumbo might be better. fact. lol

Yes we all have our facts. But Mutombo wasn't even close to Wilt as a defender, so your fact is wrong.

KnicksorBust
08-18-2013, 05:57 PM
To me the list has to have:
PG - Gary Payton
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Scottie Pippen
PF - Dennis Rodman

Center is by far the most difficult position. Personally I would probably go Hakeem because he doesn't give up any height or weight (like Deke or Big Ben) and he was adept with steals/blocks.

Honorable mention: Squid/McHale/Russell

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 07:05 PM
Ben Wallace and Mutumbo would instantly Eliminate Every other Center in the NBA. No Hakeem, No Ewing, No, Russell, KG, Duncan, Robinson etc.

Hakeem was better, Robinson too IMO. KG isn't a Center. Compared to their own time Russell kills everyone mentioned here with the possible exception of Hakeem.

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 07:07 PM
twenty games into next season he'll be second all time in total defensive win-shares behind only bill russell.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

and if he played for .500 teams, he'd have a lot less. Win Shares on great teams unfairly boost guys - Russell and Duncan come to mind at once, and penalize other guys (like KG who is a better defender then TD or Hakeem who was better than Russell).

Bishnoff
08-18-2013, 07:24 PM
team 1-
payton
mj
pippen
timmy or rodman
russell

team 2-
fraizer
dj
lebron
timmy or rodman(the loser of above)
hakeem

team 3-
stockton
squid
artest
kg
thurmond

off the top of my head,i need to do research for better foray into this

Nice teams.

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 08:05 PM
pre-ABA merger:

Team A: Team B:

C: Bill Russell C: Wilt
F: Paul Silas F: Dave Cowens
F: John Havlicek F: Elgin Baylor
G: Jerry Sloan G: Jo Jo White
G: Walt Frazier G: K.C. Jones

post merger team:

A Team:

C: Hakeem C: Robinson
F: Garnett F: Duncan
F: Pippen F: Artest
G: Jordan G: Cooper
G: Payton G: Cheeks

Cowens would be a PF now, and with Silas he was almost always the high post while Silas was the low post.

Bruno
08-18-2013, 08:09 PM
and if he played for .500 teams, he'd have a lot less. Win Shares on great teams unfairly boost guys - Russell and Duncan come to mind at once, and penalize other guys (like KG who is a better defender then TD or Hakeem who was better than Russell).

ive thought this as well but at some point somebody checked me on this as not being entirely accurate (I forget who and when). is that true? anybody? i dont know enough about this as I should considering how much I mention them in arguments.

whats confusing is that that makes total sense. but then how do we explain Shaq having 30 less defensive career win shares than Duncan despite also being on winning teams? (or since you and I have the same opinion on shaqs defense, how would they explain it?)

bagwell368
08-18-2013, 08:44 PM
ive thought this as well but at some point somebody checked me on this as not being entirely accurate (I forget who and when). is that true? anybody? i dont know enough about this as I should considering how much I mention them in arguments.

whats confusing is that that makes total sense. but then how do we explain Shaq having 30 less defensive career win shares than Duncan despite also being on winning teams? (or since you and I have the same opinion on shaqs defense, how would they explain it?)

The way I look at it is this way: Take two guys on different teams with 10.0 Win Shares. One team won 60 games, the other 45. Now win shares correlate (not 100%, but pretty close) to wins. So we know that that the guy with 10 WS on the 45 win team has a higher % of his teams wins shares than the guy on the 60 win team.

Who had more to do with his teams wins? Without knowing any details, it has to be the 2nd guy.

Look at Duncan's win shares and KG's when KG and TD were both playing for SAS and Minny, well TD looks a good deal better. Now add up the players WS's and divide it into the teams WS's - the number is a lot closer. Consider that KG was basically a one man team and TD was not - that accounts for a lot more such as KG's tougher records in the playoffs.

BRADfromOZ
08-18-2013, 09:07 PM
My 2c.

John Stockton
Michael Jordan
Julius Erving
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell

All-In
08-18-2013, 09:19 PM
I’m not going the traditional route with their positions and make it more of a “Fantasy” defensive dream team:
1- Lebron
2- MJ
3- Pippen
4- Zo
5- Russell

I wanted guys who in their respected era’s were able to guard anyone 1 through 5(for the most part)….so on any switch it would be in our favor….Zo was amazing at switching to guards with ease…and Lebron is Lebron…and our athleticism will force anyone to **** their pants especially on our rotations ….Payton, Rodman, Bigben, Duncan, Hakeem, etc…there are a lot of terrific defenders I like…I just like having versatility

Bruno
08-18-2013, 09:24 PM
The way I look at it is this way: Take two guys on different teams with 10.0 Win Shares. One team won 60 games, the other 45. Now win shares correlate (not 100%, but pretty close) to wins. So we know that that the guy with 10 WS on the 45 win team has a higher % of his teams wins shares than the guy on the 60 win team.

Who had more to do with his teams wins? Without knowing any details, it has to be the 2nd guy.

Look at Duncan's win shares and KG's when KG and TD were both playing for SAS and Minny, well TD looks a good deal better. Now add up the players WS's and divide it into the teams WS's - the number is a lot closer. Consider that KG was basically a one man team and TD was not - that accounts for a lot more such as KG's tougher records in the playoffs.

i got it. I dont necessarily have a grip saying that KG is the better defender.

Chrisstyles
08-18-2013, 10:06 PM
1st team
PG Payton
SG Jordan
SF Pippen
PF Rodman
C Russell

2nd team
PG Frazier
SG Dennis Johnson (with Seattle he was a beast)
SF Bruce Bowen
PF Garnett
C Olajuwon

3rd team
PG Norm Van Lier (Stockton doesn't belong in this defensive conversation)
SG Michael Cooper
SF Grant Hill
PF Tim Duncan
C Wilt Chamberlain

Shoutouts to:
Bobby Jones, Rasheed Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Ron Artest, Andre Iggy, Nate Thurmond, Lindsay Hunter, Mo Cheeks, Tony Allen, Thabo Sefolosha and whoever else I missed.

To all those looking at defensive win shares, that is NOT how you figure out a good defensive player. It's by watching the player personally and what he does on the court. Defensive win shares favors the guys who make the play but doesn't favor the guys who slide there feet. (that's why Larry Bird and Doctor J's win shares are higher than Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen's). It's a very inaccurate stat that has many flaws. Team defense can also increase defensive win shares. If you look at the 72-73 Boston Celtics, they played good defense and there win shares are extremely high because of it.

TheMightyHumph
08-18-2013, 10:17 PM
My 2c.

John Stockton
Michael Jordan
Julius Erving
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell

Julius a good defender, but definitely not amongst the best.

And I'm a guy that believes, basketball-wise, Julius is GOD.

mrblisterdundee
08-18-2013, 10:24 PM
PG - Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, Dennis Johnson
SG - Michael Jordan, Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper
SF - Scottie Pippen, Metta World Peace/Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen
PF - Tim Duncan, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Garnett
C - Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson

bagwell368
08-19-2013, 08:27 AM
i got it. I dont necessarily have a grip saying that KG is the better defender.

Defensive stats are overly tied to team performance. Minny's D was no match for SAS's. Even in KG's early decline he went to Boston and won DPY, and grabbed some nice DWS and DRtg numbers in part due to the Celts, and in part that he really is a better defender (against 4's) than Duncan. KG played Center well the last few years, but a lot of that is due to the weak players playing Center. Duncan played more Center against a better group of players in his time.

Chronz
08-19-2013, 11:51 AM
I love Wilt but he don't belong on here.

Its Dream then Russ at least, ahead of him.

Oefarmy2005
08-19-2013, 03:51 PM
I am sick of arguing whether KG or Duncan were a better player in their prime, but KG was/is a better defensive player.

TheMightyHumph
08-19-2013, 11:44 PM
I love Wilt but he don't belong on here.

Its Dream then Russ at least, ahead of him.

And that is an opinion you have a right to as an American

TheMagicAct24
08-20-2013, 12:10 AM
Payton
Jordan
Pippen
KG
D12(Orlando days)

Kevin Johnson
Moncrief
Iguodala
Rodman
Olajuwon

Cheeks
Frazier
Cooper
Ben Wallace
Mourning

amos1er
08-20-2013, 03:38 AM
PG: Payton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Duncan
C: Russell

bearadonisdna
08-20-2013, 06:07 AM
1st team

C-Olajuwon
PF-Rodman
Sf-Pippen
Sg-MJ
Pg-Stockton or Jerry West

Kinda torn between timmy d & dennis at pf. Dennis has the DPOYs and singlehandedly stopped shaq but timmy has the raw defensive numbers. Namely blocks.

ManRam
08-20-2013, 09:47 AM
This feels like an impossible task...but I'll try. Here are mine (only felt like 2 teams) without looking at anyone's list.


PG: Payton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Hakeem

PG: Kidd (I'm sure I'll be in the minority)
SG: Cooper
SF: Hondo
PF: Garnett
C: Russell

WadeKobe
08-20-2013, 10:04 AM
This feels like an impossible task...but I'll try. Here are mine (only felt like 2 teams) without looking at anyone's list.


PG: Payton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Hakeem

PG: Kidd (I'm sure I'll be in the minority)
SG: Cooper
SF: Hondo
PF: Garnett
C: Russell

People just dot respect Kidd. He is arguably the third best PG in the history of the NBA and he is IMO first team defense while Payton is 2nd.

But he didn't score much so.... Lol.

TheMightyHumph
08-20-2013, 12:16 PM
People just dot respect Kidd. He is arguably the third best PG in the history of the NBA and he is IMO first team defense while Payton is 2nd.

But he didn't score much so.... Lol.

See below

TheMightyHumph
08-20-2013, 12:20 PM
People just dot respect Kidd. He is arguably the third best PG in the history of the NBA and he is IMO first team defense while Payton is 2nd.

But he didn't score much so.... Lol.

Kidd had a LOT OF TROUBLE guarding quick PGs.

Also, Kidd & Stockton averaged nearly the same ppg in their careers, and I think Stockton was the better defender.

Kidd certainly could guard SGs, though.

Chronz
08-20-2013, 07:08 PM
PG: Payton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Duncan
C: Russell
Put some effort into it...3 Teams




And that is an opinion you have a right to as an American
Passion for stating the obvious....?



This feels like an impossible task...but I'll try. Here are mine (only felt like 2 teams) without looking at anyone's list.


PG: Payton
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Hakeem

PG: Kidd (I'm sure I'll be in the minority)
SG: Cooper
SF: Hondo
PF: Garnett
C: Russell
Agreed, its much easier to nitpick at other peoples list, like so...


Cooper ahead of Kobe? Thoughts on Ben Wallace as a PF? Why GP ahead of Kidd? Bruce Bowen/Artest notably absent, I mean if you value DPOY's and all (which seems to be something of a tiebreaker for you)


Also... 3 Teams plz




Anyways.... My Picks:


PG: Kidd
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Hakeem

PG: Payton
SG: Moncrief
SF: Artest
PF: Duncan
C: Russell

PG: Frazier
SG: Bowen
SF: Hondo
PF: Garnett
C: D-Rob/Wilt


/Thread

Chronz
08-20-2013, 07:10 PM
Its funny, I think my 2nd team beats my 1st team

tredigs
08-20-2013, 07:20 PM
"All D Team format"?

G: Payton
G: Jordan
F: Pippen
F: Rodman
C: Russell

G: Kidd
G: Dennis Johnson
F: Artest
F: Duncan
C: Wilt

G: Frazier
G: Battier
F: Bowen
F: Garnett
C: Olajuwon

My apologies to Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Cooper, Mchale, and the rest of their ilk.

Chronz
08-20-2013, 07:49 PM
Whats with the love for Payton? Is it because of the 96 Finals?

Chronz
08-20-2013, 07:52 PM
G: Kidd
G: Dennis Johnson
F: Artest
F: Duncan
C: Wilt

Wilt's name always peaks my interest, I had him tied for my 3rd team but it felt like a biased choice. Any particular reason you have Wilt ahead of Thurmond?

abe_froman
08-20-2013, 07:56 PM
Whats with the love for Payton? Is it because of the 96 Finals?
because he was a stifflingly great defender(best i ever saw at that position),arguably the best out of the pg position.but yeah its weird everyone has him,probably due to recency over guys like west,frazier,van lier,ect. who should also be in the convo

Chronz
08-20-2013, 08:02 PM
because he was a greater defender in his prime,arguably the best out of the pg position.but yeah its weird everyone has him,probably due to recency over guys like west,frazier,van lier,ect. who should also be in the convo

Everyone whos been named is arguably the best at their position. Kidd was the best Team Defender from his position which entails alot more than just 1 on 1 responsibilities, and tjats what I feel is the only edge Payton had on Kidd. It feels more to me like people are focusing heavily on his encounter with MJ, or that shiny DPOY.

tredigs
08-20-2013, 08:15 PM
Wilt's name always peaks my interest, I had him tied for my 3rd team but it felt like a biased choice. Any particular reason you have Wilt ahead of Thurmond?

Thurmond's a fair choice obviously, and Kareem would agree with it, but Kareem never got to see 20's Wilt. I just that at his heyday, that size/strength + speed/athleticism would give every big in NBA history their most frustrating day on the court, including Shaq. His rebounding was also a tier ahead of Thurmond and virtually anyone else, which obviously is big for D as well. By all video/accounts, same with shot-blocking. And even in his mid 30's he was leading the league in defensive win shares over peak Thurmond, and while it's far from the best stat, it says something.

If we got to see them on a daily basis I could go into it further, but from what video I've seen and excerpts I've read, I'd say it's fair to say Wilt was the more demonstrative defender whenever he wanted it, while Thurmond had the higher drive/bbiq.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 08:22 PM
mine:

1st
PG: Kidd
SG: Jordan
SF: Pippen
PF: Rodman
C: Russell

2nd
PG: Payton
SG: Bowen
SF: LeBron
PF: Garnett
C: Dream

3rd
PG: Walt Frazier
SG: Artest
SF: Battier
PF: Duncan
C: Ben Wallace

WadeKobe
08-21-2013, 11:03 AM
1st:

Kidd
Jordan
Pippen
Garnett
Wallace

2nd:

Payton
Bowen
Artest
Rodman
Hakeem

3rd:

Frazier
Kobe
Battier
Duncan
Robinson