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amos1er
08-17-2013, 04:41 AM
This has been a hotly debated topic on here for as long as I can remember and thought it was time we attempt to come to some sort of consensus on the matter.

I for one feel that Kobe was the clear cut best in the league for at least 5 years starting from the 05-06 season spanning to the 09-10 season where he began to taper off due to him finally succumbing to the nagging injuries that had been plaguing him for many seasons.

As evidence I would like to point out that the majority of credible basketball opinions around the NBA agreed with Kobe being the best during this very same period I mentioned above including both Michael Jordan and Lebron James.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg - Players, coaches, analysts, and experts from around the NBA say Kobe is best 2005-2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8 - Players, coaches, analysts, and experts from around the NBA say Kobe is best 2005-2008. (volume 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk - Players, coaches, analysts, and experts from around the NBA say Kobe is best 2005-2009. (volume 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yiGz3Vgrw - Michael Jordan says Kobe is better than Lebron. (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRfGK5z_R8 - Jordan says he would take Kobe over Lebron all-time. (2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84 - Lebron James says Kobe is the best player in the NBA... Even better than him in a 60 Minutes interview. (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZbAh1wPoNI - Lebron says Kobe is the best player in the NBA right before their Christmas Day game. (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pp10aHLdEc - Michael Jordan says for the second time that Kobe is the best in the NBA even better than Lebron. (2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcYuJPJ7iM - Lebron says that Kobe is the closest to Jordan. (2010)

Well... What do you all think? How many years (if any) do you think that Kobe was the clear cut best in the NBA?

Hellcrooner
08-17-2013, 04:44 AM
Zero.

But the thing is he has been top 3 for his entire career(minus rookie/soph years) .

Which may be a bigger achievement.
Durabilty at high level vs Peak.

amos1er
08-17-2013, 04:47 AM
I realize that I could have left more options as some might feel that Kobe was best even before the 05-06 season. Oh well, hindsight i guess.

Minimal
08-17-2013, 05:11 AM
Zero.

But the thing is he has been top 3 for his entire career(minus rookie/soph years) .

Which may be a bigger achievement.
Durabilty at high level vs Peak.
This

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:16 AM
Oh and please no flaming, trolling, or baiting guys. Lets have a good clean debate.

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:16 AM
This

Any sort of reasoning or basis for this?

Minimal
08-17-2013, 05:27 AM
Any sort of reasoning or basis for this?
Well IMO LeBron is considered the best since 2007-2008 Season up to this day,
2005-2007 Imo its was between Wade, Dirk and Kobe.
And before that it was Garnett and then Shaq.

el hidalgo
08-17-2013, 05:30 AM
Honestly, people who would lick a piece of dog **** off of Kobe's shoes should not be able to make threads about him. Who gives a **** about hoodrat ex player's opinions about him? Great, they were gifted athletically. Doesn't mean they know a thing about basketball. They most likely possess much less knowledge than they average person about basketball. They are probably morons who did relatively nothing because they were gifted athletically.


What is so hard to understand about advances stats? Kobe fanboys can't even understand efficiency. Let me make it simple for you. When you score a lot of points on a low amount of field goal attempts, it is good. When you jack up shots and score a lot of point on many field goal attempts, it isn't good. Getting assists is also a good thing.

The consensus now a days is that Kobe is an all time elite player due to his longevity and top 5 status for many years. Try to find proof that he was the best player in the league. Good luck. You can't, because he never was. Only people that believe this are blinds homers who still wish to believe that Kobe is Adonis. These are the same people who would eat dog **** off of his shoes like it is a piece of gum.

Quite frankly, it is pathetic that people are so blinded and enamored by Kobe that they can't admit that he has flaws. That is the true epitome of the word "homer".

GOOD THING STERN IS MAKING LECHOKE-ON-GENITALS WIN RINGS, OR ELSE KOBE WOULD HAVE LIKE 13 LOLZ

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:40 AM
Well IMO LeBron is considered the best since 2007-2008 Season up to this day,
2005-2007 Imo its was between Wade, Dirk and Kobe.
And before that it was Garnett and then Shaq.

I can respect that, only it's hard to ignore the opinions of 95% of the worlds best and most respected NBA players, coaches, analysts, owners, GM's, and experts on the matter who all say that Kobe was best from 05-10. I understand that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but we have to take opinions of the worlds greatest basketball minds into account very heavily on all matters including this one... Especially when there is such a strong overwhelming consensus amongst them.

jaydubb
08-17-2013, 05:43 AM
Honestly, people who would lick a piece of dog **** off of Kobe's shoes should not be able to make threads about him. Who gives a **** about hoodrat ex player's opinions about him? Great, they were gifted athletically. Doesn't mean they know a thing about basketball. They most likely possess much less knowledge than they average person about basketball. They are probably morons who did relatively nothing because they were gifted athletically.


What is so hard to understand about advances stats? Kobe fanboys can't even understand efficiency. Let me make it simple for you. When you score a lot of points on a low amount of field goal attempts, it is good. When you jack up shots and score a lot of point on many field goal attempts, it isn't good. Getting assists is also a good thing.

The consensus now a days is that Kobe is an all time elite player due to his longevity and top 5 status for many years. Try to find proof that he was the best player in the league. Good luck. You can't, because he never was. Only people that believe this are blinds homers who still wish to believe that Kobe is Adonis. These are the same people who would eat dog **** off of his shoes like it is a piece of gum.

Quite frankly, it is pathetic that people are so blinded and enamored by Kobe that they can't admit that he has flaws. That is the true epitome of the word "homer".

GOOD THING STERN IS MAKING LECHOKE-ON-GENITALS WIN RINGS, OR ELSE KOBE WOULD HAVE LIKE 13 LOLZ

One of the "hoodrat ex players that doesn't know a thing about basketball" is michael jordan AKA the GOAT.. I hope you are being sarcastic..

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:43 AM
Honestly, people who would lick a piece of dog **** off of Kobe's shoes should not be able to make threads about him. Who gives a **** about hoodrat ex player's opinions about him? Great, they were gifted athletically. Doesn't mean they know a thing about basketball. They most likely possess much less knowledge than they average person about basketball. They are probably morons who did relatively nothing because they were gifted athletically.


What is so hard to understand about advances stats? Kobe fanboys can't even understand efficiency. Let me make it simple for you. When you score a lot of points on a low amount of field goal attempts, it is good. When you jack up shots and score a lot of point on many field goal attempts, it isn't good. Getting assists is also a good thing.

The consensus now a days is that Kobe is an all time elite player due to his longevity and top 5 status for many years. Try to find proof that he was the best player in the league. Good luck. You can't, because he never was. Only people that believe this are blinds homers who still wish to believe that Kobe is Adonis. These are the same people who would eat dog **** off of his shoes like it is a piece of gum.

Quite frankly, it is pathetic that people are so blinded and enamored by Kobe that they can't admit that he has flaws. That is the true epitome of the word "homer".

GOOD THING STERN IS MAKING LECHOKE-ON-GENITALS WIN RINGS, OR ELSE KOBE WOULD HAVE LIKE 13 LOLZ

I did politely ask to keep the trolling, baiting, and flaming to a minimum. If you do not have anything enlightening to add to the discussion then please move on.

Oh and be sure to cast your vote above before you do.

BTW... Riley and Pops (2 of many) also agreed that Kobe was best during that period as well. Thus proving your statement about how only people who were "gifted athletically" and have no real knowledge about basketball felt Kobe was best from 05-10 false.

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:45 AM
That "hoodrat ex player that doesn't know a thing about basketball" is michael jordan AKA the GOAT.. I hope you are being sarcastic..

It's best not to respond to such nonsense. I can only suspect that he is trying to derail this thread with posts like that.

jaydubb
08-17-2013, 05:56 AM
To be honest, I don't know if he was ever the "clear cut best in NBA".. When I look at lebron now, I think there is nobody even CLOSE to that guy right now and there is no way anybody could argue with that. I don't think I ever said that about kobe regardless of being a laker/Kobe fan for so many years. Yes, there were a few years that I personally would argue that he was the best in the NBA, but there is a difference between a few fans debating that he is the best and being the "clear cut best" in the NBA.

amos1er
08-17-2013, 05:59 AM
To be honest, I don't know if he was ever the "clear cut best in NBA".. When I look at lebron now, I think there is nobody even CLOSE to that guy right now and there is no way anybody could argue with that. I don't think I ever said that about kobe regardless of being a laker/Kobe fan for so many years. Yes, there were a few years that I personally would argue that he was the best in the NBA, but there is a difference between a few fans debating that he is the best and being the "clear cut best" in the NBA.

I see what you mean, but one could also argue that the competition at the top was greater during the years when Kobe was in his prime than there is currently.

Shlumpledink
08-17-2013, 06:08 AM
Honestly, people who would lick a piece of dog **** off of Kobe's shoes should not be able to make threads about him. Who gives a **** about hoodrat ex player's opinions about him? Great, they were gifted athletically. Doesn't mean they know a thing about basketball. They most likely possess much less knowledge than they average person about basketball. They are probably morons who did relatively nothing because they were gifted athletically.


What is so hard to understand about advances stats? Kobe fanboys can't even understand efficiency. Let me make it simple for you. When you score a lot of points on a low amount of field goal attempts, it is good. When you jack up shots and score a lot of point on many field goal attempts, it isn't good. Getting assists is also a good thing.

The consensus now a days is that Kobe is an all time elite player due to his longevity and top 5 status for many years. Try to find proof that he was the best player in the league. Good luck. You can't, because he never was. Only people that believe this are blinds homers who still wish to believe that Kobe is Adonis. These are the same people who would eat dog **** off of his shoes like it is a piece of gum.

Quite frankly, it is pathetic that people are so blinded and enamored by Kobe that they can't admit that he has flaws. That is the true epitome of the word "homer".

GOOD THING STERN IS MAKING LECHOKE-ON-GENITALS WIN RINGS, OR ELSE KOBE WOULD HAVE LIKE 13 LOLZ

You throw out a lot of peoples opinions and points before they even make them, that is a glaring logical fallacy. I can't prove it on the criteria which you would accept, which appears to be advanced statistics. Yet, I don't believe that advanced statistics are what determines the best players. I think the opinions that people have on a lot of players depends on their understanding of the players in their era based on the games they've witnessed, or what was said about them that year by people whose opinions they respect.

Calling anyone that says Kobe was the greatest a Kobe homer, is shooting intelligent debate in the foot. I dunno what is with some people, that they think antagonizing people with differing opinions is a healthy debate strategy. Is that a by-product of watching espn debate about basketball, where people make their opinions with theatrics and voice their opinions as if they were facts?

jaydubb
08-17-2013, 06:12 AM
To be honest, I don't know if he was ever the "clear cut best in NBA".. When I look at lebron now, I think there is nobody even CLOSE to that guy right now and there is no way anybody could argue with that. I don't think I ever said that about kobe regardless of being a laker/Kobe fan for so many years. Yes, there were a few years that I personally would argue that he was the best in the NBA, but there is a difference between a few fans debating that he is the best and being the "clear cut best" in the NBA.

I see what you mean, but one could also argue that the competition at the top was greater during the years when Kobe was in his prime than there is currently.

I agree with this. Put prime Kobe in today's NBA(minus lebron) and I think he would be considered the clear cut best in today's game.

Shlumpledink
08-17-2013, 06:17 AM
I think Kobe was widely regarded as the greatest player at least more than one season of his career. You can argue that a number of players were better than him at a certain time, or had better seasons certainly. The idea that Kobe was never the greatest, is just something that I don't think is accurate.

His level of play was really remarkable in the post-shaq era. I think that is really when he set himself a part, maybe even towards the end of the Shaq era when shaq was dealing with lower body injuries, and consequently ( i think anyways) getting heavier and less effective. Kobe seemed to be turning a corner in his career, while Shaq was still effective and dominate, but his health was clearly becoming an issue unfortunately.

I think that Kobe revived the mid-range game in our modern era, and for a while was playing really great defense. He became a true two-way player, who carried his team on two ends. When Kwame Brown was the center, Kobe was showing he was buying into the game plan and willing to work the ball inside, even when the inside player was not a good player. I think that was a huge development, because it carried over when Gasol came to the Laker team, it was a seamless transition for the two of them.

Minimal
08-17-2013, 06:22 AM
I agree with this. Put prime Kobe in today's NBA(minus lebron) and I think he would be considered the clear cut best in today's game.
I think you are forgetting how good Durant is, prime Kobe wouldn't be the best player in todays NBA even without LeBron in it.

hidalgo
08-17-2013, 07:21 AM
I don't think KB was ever the best in the NBA. Gasol led them in win shares during the back to back titles. he's probably the most underrated player of all time(he should be a no brainer for the hall of fame), he was bigtime 08-10 to put it mildly. never leading your team in win shares during championship years is pretty weak for someone who many claim was the best in the nba for years, or top 5 ever. he's outside of my top 10 all time. you could just tell during the 08-10 years that the 3 bigmen were the real threat on the Lakers. they rebounded EVERYTHNG, & all shot a great fg%. whenever Kobe bricked they'd just grab the offensive RB & put it in. their size was beyond a nightmare for the rest of the league, & took years to figure out. Lebron, Wade, or Chris Paul just for example could have easly won those titles in KB's place with that stacked frontcourt they had

years after His Airness left, all basically in order

1999. Tim Dunan, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Mailbags, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant,
2000. Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant, Karl Mailbags
2001. Shaquille, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson
2002. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, kidd, Pierce
2003. Duncan, Shaq, Tmac, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Kidd
2004. Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Tmac, Billups, Kobe, Dirk
2005. Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Shaq, Dirk, Nash, Kobe
2006. Wade, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2007. Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Tony Parker, Kobe, Gasol
2008. Lebron, Chris Paul, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Pierce, Gasol, Wade
2009. LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol,
2010. LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2011. Dirk, LeBron, Rose, Durant, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe (yes Dirk was the best this year, LeBron's mind was off due to beng the villan. he didn't play quite up to his standards, stunk in the finals, & Dirk owned the playoffs & finals)
2012. Lebron, Durnat, Wade, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Kobe, Kevin Love
2013. LeBron, Durant, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Melo, Hardan, Kyrie Irving (kb fell off, no defense the past few years)

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 07:40 AM
I can respect that, only it's hard to ignore the opinions of 95% of the worlds best and most respected NBA players, coaches, analysts, owners, GM's, and experts on the matter who all say that Kobe was best from 05-10. I understand that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but we have to take opinions of the worlds greatest basketball minds into account very heavily on all matters including this one... Especially when there is such a strong overwhelming consensus amongst them.

No ya dont...Some of those great minds are terrible talent evaluators... The notion that we should respect guys opinions who play the sport is silly. See Jordan. Worst GM ever or up there.

He was never the best but in the top 3 for many years.... Never the clear cut best player in any year... Lebron has been the best from like 07/08.... Before that it was wade/Dirk and on down.... Before that Shaq/Duncan/KG and others.

Points do not equate to the best

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 07:43 AM
I agree with this. Put prime Kobe in today's NBA(minus lebron) and I think he would be considered the clear cut best in today's game.

Durant says hello.... CP3 says Hello

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 07:48 AM
Lol people are actually voting for 5 years? Wow

bagwell368
08-17-2013, 07:58 AM
The answer is one or none - in 2008-09 he was very close/maybe #1 if you count the playoffs as well as regular season.

Instead you could have asked who was best in the decade of 2000-2009 with a few choices, if he won that poll it would be much more impressive.

bagwell368
08-17-2013, 08:00 AM
I think you are forgetting how good Durant is, prime Kobe wouldn't be the best player in todays NBA even without LeBron in it.

True, last two years Durant has posted regular seasons that Kobe has never matched.

bagwell368
08-17-2013, 08:04 AM
I don't think KB was ever the best in the NBA. Gasol led them in win shares during the back to back titles. he's probably the most underrated player of all time(he should be a no brainer for the hall of fame), he was bigtime 08-10 to put it mildly. never leading your team in win shares during championship years is pretty weak for someone who many claim was the best in the nba for years, or top 5 ever. he's outside of my top 10 all time. you could just tell during the 08-10 years that the 3 bigmen were the real threat on the Lakers. they rebounded EVERYTHNG, & all shot a great fg%. whenever Kobe bricked they'd just grab the offensive RB & put it in. their size was beyond a nightmare for the rest of the league, & took years to figure out. Lebron, Wade, or Chris Paul just for example could have easly won those titles in KB's place with that stacked frontcourt they had

years after His Airness left, all basically in order

1999. Tim Dunan, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant,
2000. Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant
2001. Shaquille, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson
2002. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, kidd, Pierce
2003. Duncan, Shaq, Tmac, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Kidd
2004. Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Tmac, Billups, Kobe, Dirk
2005. Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Shaq, Dirk, Nash, Kobe
2006. Wade, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2007. Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Tony Parker, Kobe, Gasol
2008. Lebron, Chris Paul, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Pierce, Gasol, Wade
2009. LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol,
2010. LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2011. Dirk, LeBron, Rose, Durant, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe (yes Dirk was the best this year, LeBron's mind was off due to beng the villan. he didn't play quite up to his standards, stunk in the finals, & Dirk owned the playoffs & finals)
2012. Lebron, Durnat, Wade, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Kobe, Kevin Love
2013. LeBron, Durant, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Melo, Hardan, Kyrie Irving (kb fell off, no defense the past few years)

Fine work overall, but I can't see Kobe ahead of KG in 2008 considering the entire situation in Boston,.

Badluck33
08-17-2013, 08:28 AM
From 2000-20008 I can't think of a player I wouldn't want on my team more than Kobe Bryant.

why isn't 8 years an option, because I'll select that....

Bookey
08-17-2013, 08:36 AM
5 years as the clear cut best, 2 years as slightly the best. 7 years all together

3RDASYSTEM
08-17-2013, 09:16 AM
Zero.

But the thing is he has been top 3 for his entire career(minus rookie/soph years) .

Which may be a bigger achievement.
Durabilty at high level vs Peak.

so 19ppg and you're a top 3 player, even in his 4th year he was a top 3 player? so I guess ARENAS has a claim also since he racked up scoring at a high clip for a 2-3yr span or so

its not about durability vs peak or none of that

when you start reaching for straws like that its obvious that player was a developing type

how can you compare peaks when they are dominant from day 1 until retire or injured up? the best of the best all time that is

bean was a backup GINOBILI type, in a la market

go look back at the top(best) in history of the game and ask yourself did WILT or ALCINDOR or MAGIC or JORDAN or any player in that ilk finally get the best player title in they 10th season or 11th or 12th or 14th

it will be a long list of NO's

they had it basically year 1, and by year 10 they were putting up basically they rookie or 2nd year numbers, by year 14 the best players always loose a half step except magically for the backupguard turned starter it works different

bean got going year 4(fulltime starter) and won nba mvp 8yrs later, backup guard turned nba mvp, good job bean

I gave him 1 for sure in 08' for nba mvp award and possibly in 06' when he went for a crazy 35ppg, but he was lways a scorer/shooter so that really is not amazing once you figure in that he'd shoot them out the game with SHAQ so imagine how much he would chuck and gun with KWAME and SMUSH and ODOM as his core? he avg 30ppg with SHAQ in a season prior so it was impressive but somewhat expected, especially from me I saw it coming like it was second nature

Hellcrooner
08-17-2013, 09:27 AM
so 19ppg and you're a top 3 player, even in his 4th year he was a top 3 player? so I guess ARENAS has a claim also since he racked up scoring at a high clip for a 2-3yr span or so

its not about durability vs peak or none of that

when you start reaching for straws like that its obvious that player was a developing type

how can you compare peaks when they are dominant from day 1 until retire or injured up? the best of the best all time that is

bean was a backup GINOBILI type, in a la market

go look back at the top(best) in history of the game and ask yourself did WILT or ALCINDOR or MAGIC or JORDAN or any player in that ilk finally get the best player title in they 10th season or 11th or 12th or 14th

it will be a long list of NO's

they had it basically year 1, and by year 10 they were putting up basically they rookie or 2nd year numbers, by year 14 the best players always loose a half step except magically for the backupguard turned starter it works different

bean got going year 4(fulltime starter) and won nba mvp 8yrs later, backup guard turned nba mvp, good job bean

I gave him 1 for sure in 08' for nba mvp award and possibly in 06' when he went for a crazy 35ppg, but he was lways a scorer/shooter so that really is not amazing once you figure in that he'd shoot them out the game with SHAQ so imagine how much he would chuck and gun with KWAME and SMUSH and ODOM as his core? he avg 30ppg with SHAQ in a season prior so it was impressive but somewhat expected, especially from me I saw it coming like it was second nature

what age where magic wilt or alcindor in their first nba year?

busted!!!
I can smell your hate from miles and miles.

Im no fan of kobe but your being ridiculous .

dee279
08-17-2013, 09:48 AM
None.

DDynO
08-17-2013, 10:33 AM
None. But he has been top 5 since 2000 - 2001.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 11:03 AM
I voted one year, in 05-06' (he was pretty awesome, but surrounded by a bad team), but lets be honest. Kobe has never led the league in PER, Offensive rating, win shares, WS/48, RAPM, WARP. Any year that someone makes an argument for Kobe being #1, is much easier to cast doubt upon, versus MJ, Wilt, Bird, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, or Duncan for example.

Make no mistake, Kobe's longevity is the reason he entered the top 10 all time discussion. Not his peak level, which is surpassed by at least a dozen or more players. I get called a "hater" for saying things like this, and my answer to that is, "PROVE IT". Prove Kobe was the best in any given year. And I can show you why another player(s) had just as strong of a case, hence why I continue to say, I am just not sold that Kobe was the clear cut best in any given year, like LeBron has been the past 5 years.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 11:05 AM
I see what you mean, but one could also argue that the competition at the top was greater during the years when Kobe was in his prime than there is currently.

That would only be used by someone with an agenda honestly. Because it's not true.

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 11:48 AM
I can live with someone voting for 1 year... Maybe 2 if you really tried to convince me... How the hell have 5 people voted for 5 years???? It is that hard to break down statistics and understand value?

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 11:49 AM
I can live with someone voting for 1 year... Maybe 2 if you really tried to convince me... How the hell have 5 people voted for 5 years???? It is that hard to break down statistics and understand value?

well, the OP didn't make the voting public (might be a good thing), so my guess is Laker/Kobe fans are the ones who vote for 5 years with a few exceptions.

DubiousCustomer
08-17-2013, 12:00 PM
These polling options only separate Lakers fans from everyone else. There is no real discussion to be had.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 12:24 PM
Honestly, anyone who voted 5 years (outside the OP, no interest in that debate), please explain to me how on earth you can prove Kobe was the clear cut, no argument, best player for that many years.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 12:44 PM
:laugh2: All the Lebron Fans came out to vote none.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 12:46 PM
I voted one year, in 05-06' (he was pretty awesome, but surrounded by a bad team), but lets be honest. Kobe has never led the league in PER, Offensive rating, win shares, WS/48, RAPM, WARP. Any year that someone makes an argument for Kobe being #1, is much easier to cast doubt upon, versus MJ, Wilt, Bird, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, or Duncan for example.

Make no mistake, Kobe's longevity is the reason he entered the top 10 all time discussion. Not his peak level, which is surpassed by at least a dozen or more players. I get called a "hater" for saying things like this, and my answer to that is, "PROVE IT". Prove Kobe was the best in any given year. And I can show you why another player(s) had just as strong of a case, hence why I continue to say, I am just not sold that Kobe was the clear cut best in any given year, like LeBron has been the past 5 years.

Same sad ****, different day.

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 01:01 PM
I voted one year, in 05-06' (he was pretty awesome, but surrounded by a bad team), but lets be honest. Kobe has never led the league in PER, Offensive rating, win shares, WS/48, RAPM, WARP. Any year that someone makes an argument for Kobe being #1, is much easier to cast doubt upon, versus MJ, Wilt, Bird, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, or Duncan for example.

Make no mistake, Kobe's longevity is the reason he entered the top 10 all time discussion. Not his peak level, which is surpassed by at least a dozen or more players. I get called a "hater" for saying things like this, and my answer to that is, "PROVE IT". Prove Kobe was the best in any given year. And I can show you why another player(s) had just as strong of a case, hence why I continue to say, I am just not sold that Kobe was the clear cut best in any given year, like LeBron has been the past 5 years.

But all of those stats have their obvious flaws and really shouldn't be conductive to grading the best player in basketball.

I think PER is a decent stat, it's pretty good for a quick glance crunch sort of a thing. I think from an efficiency standpoint it works pretty well. But is the more efficient player always the better one? I mean was Ty Lawson really better than Rajon Rondo in the 2011-12 season because of his PER being a full 2 points higher? Then there's the fact that it cannot gauge defense in any way, and really it's a fancy formula stat that really doesn't gauge much.

I mean by WS for 2012-13, do you think Harden really generated the 4th most wins, Marc Gasol the 6th and Stephen Curry 7th, Deron Williams 9th when their first halves were so lackluster? For 2011-12 do you find Kevin Love 4th, Tyson Chandler 5th, 6th man Harden 6th, Noah 8th or Ryan Anderson 9th to make sense? In 2010-11 did Pau Gasol really generate more wins than anyone not named LeBron James? In 2009-10 was Gerald Wallace really 6th in the NBA in this regard? Nene 10th?

Does Tyson Chandler really contribute more wins on the offensive end of the floor each year than the defensive? Is he really a top 10 contributor to wins offensive each year? And offensive rating, a stat that Tyson Chandler has led the NBA in three straight seasons. Is he really some secret offensive weapon? I mean I love Tyson to death, but I wish he was nearly as good as these ratings make him out to be.

More on offensive rating, from the 2012-13 season. Kosta Koufos 6th? Jimmy Butler 7th? Kyle Korver 8th? Are we giving credit to the wrong offensive superstars in this league, when it should be the Chandler's, Koufos', Butler's and Korver's of the world?

There's just too many silly names that pop up on these lists to take them all that seriously. People try to write them off as outliers, but they are EVERYWHERE. There are a good 3 players in every top 10 each season that don't belong there. That's not a outlier, it's a sign of flawed formulas. Being that they are just converted from the baseball formulas, an entirely different sport in every way imaginable, that would make sense.

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 01:03 PM
These polling options only separate Lakers fans from everyone else. There is no real discussion to be had.

Right cause voting he was never the clear cut best, which is winning handily right now, is logical. By everyone else you must mean blind Kobe haters.

4milesperday
08-17-2013, 01:06 PM
Kobe can be in the argument for best for about 3-4yrs, but he is always in an argument with one or more other players at the same time period. He was never "clear-cut" best like Jordan, Shaq or Lebron. Kobe was only in discussions whenever he had a great cast around him.

mngopher35
08-17-2013, 01:17 PM
I don't know if I would say clear cut best for any years. I do think that 2006 he was the best and was in the race a couple other yearsas well. If we are talking clear cut best like shaq in his prime, Lebron today, or Jordan then I would say 0.

Greedy22
08-17-2013, 01:41 PM
I'd say 2, 05-06 and 06-07 seasons.

jericho
08-17-2013, 02:22 PM
I ain't no Kobe fan and I ain't no Lebron fan either so my opinion is really from an unbiased view of things. For me Kobe has never been the clear cut best player in the league scoring isn't the only thing to measure a good player and r for the rings argument that I'm sure somebody will bring later on you can pretty much put KD Lebron Wade CP3 in his place and they would have won as many if not more rings than Kobe. It's easy to win that many rings when his team was stacked the refs are on your side and you had one of the best coaches the league ever had (although I don't agree with that).

Hellcrooner
08-17-2013, 02:37 PM
These polling options only separate Lakers fans from everyone else. There is no real discussion to be had.



Or more acurately separate in 4 groups.

Neutral.
Hater.
Laker Fans.
Kobe Fans.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 02:44 PM
When your contemporaries are Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Dirk you don't get to be the best player.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 03:40 PM
The poll shows that most people on PSD have no clue what they are talking about, and tells you how many Lebron fans are on this site. If you told any Basketball expert that Kobe was never the best player in the world at any point you'll be laughed at for life.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 03:40 PM
Or more acurately separate in 4 groups.

Neutral.
Hater.
Laker Fans.
Kobe Fans.

Yup, and you're in category 2.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 03:43 PM
The poll shows that most people on PSD have no clue what they are talking about, and tells you how many Lebron fans are on this site. If you told any Basketball expert that Kobe was never the best player in the world at any point you'll be laughed at for life.

You are wrong.

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 03:46 PM
he was never clear cut best player,he wasnt even clear cut best player on his team for half his career.this isnt to diminish him ,but rather a show of how talented the top was during his era.from mj's decline to lebron entering his prime,there was never a clear cut number 1,it was always a mix bag of like 5 or so guys all having good cases every year

bagwell368
08-17-2013, 04:00 PM
The poll shows that most people on PSD have no clue what they are talking about, and tells you how many Lebron fans are on this site. If you told any Basketball expert that Kobe was never the best player in the world at any point you'll be laughed at for life.

Well I'm not much of a LeBron fan - outside of the fact that he's the best player going right now. But Kobe is notable much more for his long career as a top 5 player than being a clear cut #1 - at most he's in the mix for being named #1 twice, but hardly clear cut.

I doubt I could vote for anyone else but Kobe as the best player from 2000-2009. That's the deal, I can't lie to make you happy.

Lim
08-17-2013, 04:11 PM
Why is it so hard for Kobe homers to realize that he is considered top 10 all time for his insanely good longevity, and not for his peak? /thread

Hellcrooner
08-17-2013, 04:16 PM
Why is it so hard for Kobe homers to realize that he is considered top 10 all time for his insanely good longevity, and not for his peak? /thread

Cause they want to believe he is the goat and the lakers goat.

Neither of them true.
But thats what they think.

gwrighter
08-17-2013, 04:42 PM
Frankly, none.

Chronz
08-17-2013, 04:42 PM
I voted one year, in 05-06' (he was pretty awesome, but surrounded by a bad team), but lets be honest. Kobe has never led the league in PER, Offensive rating, win shares, WS/48, RAPM, WARP. Any year that someone makes an argument for Kobe being #1, is much easier to cast doubt upon, versus MJ, Wilt, Bird, LeBron, KAJ, Shaq, or Duncan for example.

Make no mistake, Kobe's longevity is the reason he entered the top 10 all time discussion. Not his peak level, which is surpassed by at least a dozen or more players. I get called a "hater" for saying things like this, and my answer to that is, "PROVE IT". Prove Kobe was the best in any given year. And I can show you why another player(s) had just as strong of a case, hence why I continue to say, I am just not sold that Kobe was the clear cut best in any given year, like LeBron has been the past 5 years.

But all of those stats have their obvious flaws and really shouldn't be conductive to grading the best player in basketball.

I think PER is a decent stat, it's pretty good for a quick glance crunch sort of a thing. I think from an efficiency standpoint it works pretty well. But is the more efficient player always the better one? I mean was Ty Lawson really better than Rajon Rondo in the 2011-12 season because of his PER being a full 2 points higher? Then there's the fact that it cannot gauge defense in any way, and really it's a fancy formula stat that really doesn't gauge much.

I mean by WS for 2012-13, do you think Harden really generated the 4th most wins, Marc Gasol the 6th and Stephen Curry 7th, Deron Williams 9th when their first halves were so lackluster? For 2011-12 do you find Kevin Love 4th, Tyson Chandler 5th, 6th man Harden 6th, Noah 8th or Ryan Anderson 9th to make sense? In 2010-11 did Pau Gasol really generate more wins than anyone not named LeBron James? In 2009-10 was Gerald Wallace really 6th in the NBA in this regard? Nene 10th?

Does Tyson Chandler really contribute more wins on the offensive end of the floor each year than the defensive? Is he really a top 10 contributor to wins offensive each year? And offensive rating, a stat that Tyson Chandler has led the NBA in three straight seasons. Is he really some secret offensive weapon? I mean I love Tyson to death, but I wish he was nearly as good as these ratings make him out to be.

More on offensive rating, from the 2012-13 season. Kosta Koufos 6th? Jimmy Butler 7th? Kyle Korver 8th? Are we giving credit to the wrong offensive superstars in this league, when it should be the Chandler's, Koufos', Butler's and Korver's of the world?

There's just too many silly names that pop up on these lists to take them all that seriously. People try to write them off as outliers, but they are EVERYWHERE. There are a good 3 players in every top 10 each season that don't belong there. That's not a outlier, it's a sign of flawed formulas. Being that they are just converted from the baseball formulas, an entirely different sport in every way imaginable, that would make sense.
Thats not how youre suppose to use o rtg

jerellh528
08-17-2013, 04:45 PM
PSD, the wanna be hipsters of pro sports. The general consensus from what iv'e heard in the media, social circles, athletes, etc agrees kobe has been the best player for a number of yr(s) of 1 or more.

jericho
08-17-2013, 04:54 PM
PSD, the wanna be hipsters of pro sports. The general consensus from what iv'e heard in the media, social circles, athletes, etc agrees kobe has been the best player for a number of yr(s) of 1 or more.

If the media, social circles, athletes etc tell you that the color red is blue those it make it blue?

Chronz
08-17-2013, 04:56 PM
PSD, the wanna be hipsters of pro sports. The general consensus from what iv'e heard in the media, social circles, athletes, etc agrees kobe has been the best player for a number of yr(s) of 1 or more.
Hate to break it to you but its not just the psd community, pretty much any non lakers fan board where people think for themselves

hotdalton18
08-17-2013, 05:01 PM
Its about stats not wat jordan says lol

Lebron has been best since 07

Wade n dirk 06

Kobe maybe in 05

B4 that garnett n shaq

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:01 PM
Let's see, the opinions of great basketball minds, players, coaches, gms, or those of PSD. This is a tough one... I love how PSD comes together to try and discredit anything Laker related. You all think because you agree on something on this pathetic site that it transfers into the real world. Reality check guys, most people not on here would laugh at anything you guys claim. Amos1er showed you guys compelling evidence of many people claiming him to be the best player in the world at some point, now show me people who said he's wasn't. I'll wait.

Chronz
08-17-2013, 05:02 PM
Let's see, the opinions of great basketball minds, players, coaches, gms, or those of PSD. This is a tough one... I love how PSD comes together to try and discredit anything Laker related. You all think because you agree on something on this pathetic site that it transfers into the real world. Reality check guys, most people not on here would laugh at anything you guys claim. Amos1er should you guys compelling evidence of many people claiming him to be the best player in the world at some point, now show me people who said he's wasn't. I'll wait.
What if we like thinking for ourselves?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:03 PM
Hate to break it to you but its not just the psd community, pretty much any non lakers fan board where people think for themselves

So a bunch of unqualified sallys on the internet... Got you. Now show me some basketball experts, coaches, players, etc saying he wasn't

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:04 PM
What if we like thinking for ourselves?

I'm sure you do, but what makes you think you're right? Especially when everyone that is a basketball expert disagrees with you!

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:14 PM
When your contemporaries are Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Dirk you don't get to be the best player.

Right, Kobe fans try to act like he has outscored an entire team by himself or something. They would probably say he could outscore Dirk and his whole team by himself!

Oh wait...

Chronz
08-17-2013, 05:16 PM
What if we like thinking for ourselves?

I'm sure you do, but what makes you think you're right? Especially when everyone that is a basketball expert disagrees with you!
Because I can defend my stance without pointing to others for help. Google the appeal to authority fallacy

Chronz
08-17-2013, 05:18 PM
Hate to break it to you but its not just the psd community, pretty much any non lakers fan board where people think for themselves

So a bunch of unqualified sallys on the internet... Got you. Now show me some basketball experts, coaches, players, etc saying he wasn't
Why would I have to when all I was saying is that this thought isn't limited to psd? If I get a chance to pick at pops mind ill let you know

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:20 PM
Thats not how youre suppose to use o rtg

O Rtg for any individual player is highly flawed. It's far more flawed than D Rtg for an individual is, which at least has top defensive players for it's top 9 before it hits Lamar Odom (lol). O Rtg has Tyson Chandler - 1, Jose Calderon - 4, Kosta Koufos - 6, Jimmy Butler - 7, Kyle Korver - 8, Tiago Splitter - 9. Most of the players in the top 10 are ridiculous.

O Rtg and D Rtg are team stats, you really can't tie them to an individual player and act like it's a tangible number.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:20 PM
If the media, social circles, athletes etc tell you that the color red is blue those it make it blue?
What if they tell you 2+2=4?

Because I can defend my stance without pointing to others for help. Google the appeal to authority fallacyI don't need to google anything. I also don't need convincing that Kobe Bryant was the best player in the game for a minimum of 3 years. Everyone that has a qualified opinion(not on PSD) agrees with me, and that's all that matters. I could careless for the opinion of notorious Kobe/Laker haters.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:21 PM
Why would I have to when all I was saying is that this thought isn't limited to psd? If I get a chance to pick at pops mind ill let you know

Still can't find anyone discrediting Kobe like you guys do huh? Check mate.

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 05:22 PM
I'm sure you do, but what makes you think you're right? Especially when everyone that is a basketball expert disagrees with you!

how do they? they never spoke with a united voice,many of them would call duncan,shaq,kg,lebron,ect. the best player routinely over kobe's career

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:23 PM
I ain't no Kobe fan and I ain't no Lebron fan either so my opinion is really from an unbiased view of things. For me Kobe has never been the clear cut best player in the league scoring isn't the only thing to measure a good player and r for the rings argument that I'm sure somebody will bring later on you can pretty much put KD Lebron Wade CP3 in his place and they would have won as many if not more rings than Kobe. It's easy to win that many rings when his team was stacked the refs are on your side and you had one of the best coaches the league ever had (although I don't agree with that).

Right, it's not like Kobe Bryant is one of the best all-around players in NBA history or anything.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 05:28 PM
O Rtg for any individual player is highly flawed. It's far more flawed than D Rtg for an individual is, which at least has top defensive players for it's top 9 before it hits Lamar Odom (lol). O Rtg has Tyson Chandler - 1, Jose Calderon - 4, Kosta Koufos - 6, Jimmy Butler - 7, Kyle Korver - 8, Tiago Splitter - 9. Most of the players in the top 10 are ridiculous.

O Rtg and D Rtg are team stats, you really can't tie them to an individual player and act like it's a tangible number.

you don't understand how to use Ortg obviously.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:28 PM
how do they? they never spoke with a united voice,many of them would call duncan,shaq,kg,lebron,ect. the best player routinely over kobe's career

Because they eat, sleep, and breath basketball. Really? I would like to see you're proof of people saying they have a better career than Kobe, and this still doesn't answer my question to why no one can find videos of people saying Kobe was never the best player at any given time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 05:29 PM
Right, it's not like Kobe Bryant is one of the best all-around players in NBA history or anything.

IKR, what a joke this site is. Kobe is the most under rated player of all time on here.

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:31 PM
you don't understand how to use Ortg obviously.

Enlighten me, I want to know how you can use a stat for an individual when it has results like that. I would love to add another advanced stat that I can use when I decide to nerd out about basketball, I just don't see how O Rtg is a tangible stat for an individual given it's results.

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 05:31 PM
IKR, what a joke this site is. Kobe is the most under rated player of all time on here.

wanna hear something hilarious... Those same people were the ones saying Iverson was the best in the league for years as well...

L
O
L

Those same basketball minds you speak of.

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 05:36 PM
IKR, what a joke this site is. Kobe is the most under rated player of all time on here.
only kobe homers can take being regarded as the 7-11th best player of all time and see it as underrating and hatred

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:38 PM
only kobe homers can take being regarded as the 7-11th best player of all time and see it as underrating and hatred

You need to look closer at Kobe's resume vs the other top players of all time.

More-Than-Most
08-17-2013, 05:41 PM
You need to look closer at Kobe's resume vs the other top players of all time.

What does that have to do with him being the best player in any given year? His resume is nice because of his ability to be very good for as long as he has... Everyone has given him credit on that... He just doesnt have the peak ability like a James/Jordan to be the best by far in any given year

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:43 PM
IKR, what a joke this site is. Kobe is the most under rated player of all time on here.

For a lot of fans, they just hate on him. I've never seen such a great player get so little credit for his accomplishments in any sport, in terms of his achievements being credited to others or simply by reputation in terms of his All-Defensive teams lol.

Kobe and Duncan are probably the two most underrated players of all time in terms of the greats in this day and age. Everything Kobe does is slighted and there's always an attempt to give credit to someone but him. Duncan goes completely under the radar every year except for when he's in the Finals, but at least when he gets there he gets all love. How many people were bashing Duncan for riding Parker's coattails in 2007 when Parker won Finals MVP? People bash Kobe for riding Pau Gasol (LOL) for his last two titles, even though he rightfully won Finals MVP in both.

Madness, pure madness.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 05:44 PM
Enlighten me, I want to know how you can use a stat for an individual when it has results like that. I would love to add another advanced stat that I can use when I decide to nerd out about basketball, I just don't see how O Rtg is a tangible stat for an individual given it's results.

You can't just list Chandler or Kover, when their usage is nothing. The more usage drops, typically the more efficient a player gets. Therefore, you must compare players with similar roles, ie, MVP candidates in this case. Fact is, Kobe has never led the league in PER, WS, Off Rtg, or WS/48, and these are not team impacted numbers like you say. If you believe that, explain Kevin Love. Or Kobe in his BEST year, which was when his team was terrible. Defensive rating is a team impacted stat, I rarely, if ever, use it. Offensive rating and it's formula is set to make all players scenarios basically even. Defensive rating is not.

Kobe can not be shown statistically to have ever been the best in the game. Not possible really.

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:46 PM
What does that have to do with him being the best player in any given year? His resume is nice because of his ability to be very good for as long as he has... Everyone has given him credit on that... He just doesnt have the peak ability like a James/Jordan to be the best by far in any given year

Kobe has achieved a handful of scoring feats not done since Wilt Chamberlain, aka the guy so dominant he averaged 50 PPG in a season. Kobe has averaged 40 PPG in a month three different times throughout his career, from what I could find on Basketball-Reference.com no other notable scorer of the past 30 years has accomplished that even once.

What kind of peak ability does he need, exactly, to be the best player in the NBA? The guy single handily outscored a team by himself, a team that happened to have an all time great in Dirk on it and a team that happened to represent the western conference in the Finals the same season.

To quote Gladiator, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

:D

abe_froman
08-17-2013, 05:46 PM
You need to look closer at Kobe's resume vs the other top players of all time.

what did i say that was wrong?others in top 10 have just as good resumes as kobe does.he was never clear cut number 1,never had that insane peak ;but he was consistently top 5 player through out most of his career.you guys take that as bad/hate(i get wanting your guy to be the best,but still how is this a bad thing to you people?)

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 05:46 PM
For a lot of fans, they just hate on him. I've never seen such a great player get so little credit for his accomplishments in any sport, in terms of his achievements being credited to others or simply by reputation in terms of his All-Defensive teams lol.

Kobe and Duncan are probably the two most underrated players of all time in terms of the greats in this day and age. Everything Kobe does is slighted and there's always an attempt to give credit to someone but him. Duncan goes completely under the radar every year except for when he's in the Finals, but at least when he gets there he gets all love. How many people were bashing Duncan for riding Parker's coattails in 2007 when Parker won Finals MVP? People bash Kobe for riding Pau Gasol (LOL) for his last two titles, even though he rightfully won Finals MVP in both.

Madness, pure madness.

Kobe has gotten PLENTY of credit, and rightly so, for his individual and team accomplishments. What we have now is bitter Kobe fans that are angry that someone else came along that is simply much better. It kills them. I don't know why. Same thing happened in the early 90's to Bird and Magic fans when MJ started putting up seasons they could only dream of.

Kobe is respected in the basketball world very highly. And rightly so. But saying he wasn't the best player in any given years without argument, is not hating. At all.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 05:47 PM
Kobe has achieved a handful of scoring feats not done since Wilt Chamberlain, aka the guy so dominant he averaged 50 PPG in a season. Kobe has averaged 40 PPG in a month three different times throughout his career, from what I could find on Basketball-Reference.com no other notable scorer of the past 30 years has accomplished that even once.

What kind of peak ability does he need, exactly, to be the best player in the NBA? The guy single handily outscored a team by himself, a team that happened to have an all time great in Dirk on it and a team that happened to represent the western conference in the Finals the same season.

To quote Gladiator, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

:D

Complete dominance while being the most efficient star in the game on both ends..

And really, you are only able to beat the competition you are given, so as long as you are the best in that given year, it doesn't matter if you would still be the best in another year as the same player.

SportsFanatic10
08-17-2013, 05:50 PM
none in my opinion. i could see trying to make a case for 1 or 2 years, but it's by no means clear cut. lol at 5...

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 05:55 PM
what did i say that was wrong?others in top 10 have just as good resumes as kobe does.he was never clear cut number 1,never had that insane peak ;but he was consistently top 5 player through out most of his career.you guys take that as bad/hate(i get wanting your guy to be the best,but still how is this a bad thing to you people?)

How is being so dominant that you can outscore a Finals team by yourself with horrendous teammates not insane? It was something that hadn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain. Is that insane enough? He scored 81 points in a game, the second most points ever seen in an NBA game. Is that insane enough? His all around play in terms of PTS, REBs and ASTs in the 2009 Finals was something that hadn't been done since Jerry West. Is that insane enough?

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 06:05 PM
Complete dominance while being the most efficient star in the game on both ends..

And really, you are only able to beat the competition you are given, so as long as you are the best in that given year, it doesn't matter if you would still be the best in another year as the same player.

That outline really only works for Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon, cause in that case no other player in the NBA has ever been the best player. Even then, was Jordan ever the most efficient star in the game on D? I guess he has his DPOY season, but was he ever the defender Hakeem was? No, and he was plenty a star. In that case Magic Johnson was never the best player in the NBA, cause he sure as hell wasn't ever close to being the most efficient star in the game on defense at any point. LeBron James plays awesome D, as did Kobe in his prime, but LeBron only guards top players in spurts. Is defense in spurts enough to be the most efficient star on defense in the NBA? That just seems like a ridiculous qualification.

In that case I can easily point to the 2009 WCF as an example, when Kobe was switching off Billups and Melo and killing any runs they were on when he switched to them. Is that not enough to get credit for his defense, or does playing D in spurts only get great credit for LeBron?

SwatTeam
08-17-2013, 06:09 PM
Advanced stats basically backs up every great players peak through the years from Jordan to Duncan to Shaq to KG to Duncan again to Wade to Dirk to Lebron. For some reason it doesn't back up Kobe in terms of his peak.

Logically, advanced stats are useless and broken.


CONSPIRACY!

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:11 PM
wanna hear something hilarious... Those same people were the ones saying Iverson was the best in the league for years as well...

L
O
L

Those same basketball minds you speak of.

Ok, I'm sorry bro, Your opinion>experts.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:12 PM
You need to look closer at Kobe's resume vs the other top players of all time.

Bingo.

FOXHOUND
08-17-2013, 06:12 PM
Kobe has gotten PLENTY of credit, and rightly so, for his individual and team accomplishments. What we have now is bitter Kobe fans that are angry that someone else came along that is simply much better. It kills them. I don't know why. Same thing happened in the early 90's to Bird and Magic fans when MJ started putting up seasons they could only dream of.

Kobe is respected in the basketball world very highly. And rightly so. But saying he wasn't the best player in any given years without argument, is not hating. At all.

Kobe is an enigma, his under appreciated career is a lot different than Duncan's. Duncan has always been a victim of being out of the spot light and going unnoticed. Kobe has two sides, the people who love him and the people who hate him. GMs, coaches and players have all given Kobe plenty of respect, when I say that I mean from the fans perspective.

Kobe only win titles because of Shaq, meanwhile Shaq could have won those three with a handful of SGs
Kobe can't get out of the first round with garbage in the west, so who cares if he scores 35 PPG?
Kobe scored 81 points, but it was the Toronto Raptors so who cares?
Kobe deserves like 3 of his All-Defensive 1st teams in his career tops, apparently. The rest are nonsense.
Kobe can't do anything but score, yet the only other guard with a better all around game in history is Jordan.
Kobe only achieves great scoring feats because he shoots a lot. Other players don't shoot a lot to score apparently.
Kobe only won more rings because of Pau Gasol, not the other way around.
Kobe only has 7 Finals appearances and 5 Rings because of great teammates. Only Kobe.
Kobe never played at the level that Tracy McGrady played at, had to bring that over from that crazy thread.

Really, that list can get annoyingly long.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:13 PM
What does that have to do with him being the best player in any given year? His resume is nice because of his ability to be very good for as long as he has... Everyone has given him credit on that... He just doesnt have the peak ability like a James/Jordan to be the best by far in any given year

:laugh2: all you guys do is recycle all of Hawkeyes trash post. Come up with something original.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:15 PM
For a lot of fans, they just hate on him. I've never seen such a great player get so little credit for his accomplishments in any sport, in terms of his achievements being credited to others or simply by reputation in terms of his All-Defensive teams lol.

Kobe and Duncan are probably the two most underrated players of all time in terms of the greats in this day and age. Everything Kobe does is slighted and there's always an attempt to give credit to someone but him. Duncan goes completely under the radar every year except for when he's in the Finals, but at least when he gets there he gets all love. How many people were bashing Duncan for riding Parker's coattails in 2007 when Parker won Finals MVP? People bash Kobe for riding Pau Gasol (LOL) for his last two titles, even though he rightfully won Finals MVP in both.

Madness, pure madness.

At least someone on here gets it. What makes it even crazier to think about, is Kobe and Duncan had to battle it out for their rings, while Lebron is in a weak era without top 10 all time talent.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:16 PM
Kobe has achieved a handful of scoring feats not done since Wilt Chamberlain, aka the guy so dominant he averaged 50 PPG in a season. Kobe has averaged 40 PPG in a month three different times throughout his career, from what I could find on Basketball-Reference.com no other notable scorer of the past 30 years has accomplished that even once.

What kind of peak ability does he need, exactly, to be the best player in the NBA? The guy single handily outscored a team by himself, a team that happened to have an all time great in Dirk on it and a team that happened to represent the western conference in the Finals the same season.

To quote Gladiator, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

:D

Not to mention his defense was lights out at the time. Kobe haters are the funniest.

el hidalgo
08-17-2013, 06:16 PM
Still haven't seen any proof showing he was the clear cut best in the NBA. How can people scoff at advanced statistics such as TS%? It is simple. It shows how often these players will score 2 points per shot. 3 pointers are weighted to make the statistic work. Is that really hard to understand. You don't want your players having a higher chance of scoring two points? Your call.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 06:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fV1FP38ecI

This is Laker fans in a nut shell.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:17 PM
Kobe has gotten PLENTY of credit, and rightly so, for his individual and team accomplishments. What we have now is bitter Kobe fans that are angry that someone else came along that is simply much better. It kills them. I don't know why. Same thing happened in the early 90's to Bird and Magic fans when MJ started putting up seasons they could only dream of.

Kobe is respected in the basketball world very highly. And rightly so. But saying he wasn't the best player in any given years without argument, is not hating. At all.

Yes it is. Everyone outside this garbage site would agree.

el hidalgo
08-17-2013, 06:17 PM
Not to mention his defense was lights out at the time. Kobe haters are the funniest.

Kobe and Derek Jeter are the most overrated defenders in sports history. Kobe gave up defense back around 2006 so he could score more.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 06:18 PM
Yes it is. Everyone outside this garbage site would agree.

Nope.

el hidalgo
08-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Ok, I'm sorry bro, You're opinion>experts.

You are opinion? I'm confused

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:21 PM
Kobe and Derek Jeter are the most overrated defenders in sports history. Kobe gave up defense back around 2006 so he could score more.

:facepalm:

el hidalgo
08-17-2013, 06:21 PM
Yes it is. Everyone outside this garbage site would agree.

If this site is garbage, you are the king of the trash pickers. You're like Charlie and Danny DeVito in that always sunny episode. Why not just leave if this site is garbage?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:22 PM
You are opinion? I'm confused

Are you confused about what an account bet is? You know, the one I wrecked you in?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:25 PM
If this site is garbage, you are the king of the trash pickers. You're like Charlie and Danny DeVito in that always sunny episode. Why not just leave if this site is garbage?

Who else will keep to clueless posters in check? Why don't you leave for losing an account bet?

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 06:28 PM
Who else will keep to clueless posters in check? Why don't you leave for losing an account bet?

Why don't you try to show why Kobe was the best for whatever amount of years you think he was the best.

SportsFanatic10
08-17-2013, 06:35 PM
Why don't you try to show why Kobe was the best for whatever amount of years you think he was the best.

because he can't lol. all him and amos1er can do is post youtube clips of people giving kobe respect.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:38 PM
Why don't you try to show why Kobe was the best for whatever amount of years you think he was the best.

Well for starters, in 06 he put up 35/5/5 while having lock down defense. There are about a dozen basketball experts that agree that Kobe was the best player in the world this year. Now show me where anyone outside this site has claimed him not to be the best player at that time. Don't worry, I'll wait.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:39 PM
because he can't lol. all him and amos1er can do is post youtube clips of people giving kobe respect.

OK, now show me where experts claim him not to be the best. Ohh let me guess, all you got to back you up is 20 Lebron nut huggers on PSD... No surprise.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 06:45 PM
That outline really only works for Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon, cause in that case no other player in the NBA has ever been the best player. Even then, was Jordan ever the most efficient star in the game on D? I guess he has his DPOY season, but was he ever the defender Hakeem was? No, and he was plenty a star. In that case Magic Johnson was never the best player in the NBA, cause he sure as hell wasn't ever close to being the most efficient star in the game on defense at any point. LeBron James plays awesome D, as did Kobe in his prime, but LeBron only guards top players in spurts. Is defense in spurts enough to be the most efficient star on defense in the NBA? That just seems like a ridiculous qualification.

In that case I can easily point to the 2009 WCF as an example, when Kobe was switching off Billups and Melo and killing any runs they were on when he switched to them. Is that not enough to get credit for his defense, or does playing D in spurts only get great credit for LeBron?

LeBron fits the criteria the last 3-4 years

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 06:46 PM
Kobe is an enigma, his under appreciated career is a lot different than Duncan's. Duncan has always been a victim of being out of the spot light and going unnoticed. Kobe has two sides, the people who love him and the people who hate him. GMs, coaches and players have all given Kobe plenty of respect, when I say that I mean from the fans perspective.

Kobe only win titles because of Shaq, meanwhile Shaq could have won those three with a handful of SGs
Kobe can't get out of the first round with garbage in the west, so who cares if he scores 35 PPG?
Kobe scored 81 points, but it was the Toronto Raptors so who cares?
Kobe deserves like 3 of his All-Defensive 1st teams in his career tops, apparently. The rest are nonsense.
Kobe can't do anything but score, yet the only other guard with a better all around game in history is Jordan.
Kobe only achieves great scoring feats because he shoots a lot. Other players don't shoot a lot to score apparently.
Kobe only won more rings because of Pau Gasol, not the other way around.
Kobe only has 7 Finals appearances and 5 Rings because of great teammates. Only Kobe.
Kobe never played at the level that Tracy McGrady played at, had to bring that over from that crazy thread.

Really, that list can get annoyingly long.

The list for the respect he gets is much longer. And rightly so.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 06:49 PM
Yes it is. Everyone outside this garbage site would agree.

then go away. Nobody will miss you, I promise.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 06:49 PM
Why don't you try to show why Kobe was the best for whatever amount of years you think he was the best.

not capable of rational posts with evidence. Just face palms and insults in that arsenal.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:50 PM
then go away. Nobody will miss you, I promise.

Well I can promise you, that you'll never see the end of me! ;)

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:52 PM
not capable of rational posts with evidence. Just face palms and insults in that arsenal.

I just gave some, can you show me where any expert agrees with what you and your buddies are saying? I've been waiting patiently.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 06:52 PM
I just gave some, can you show me where any expert agrees with what you and your buddies are saying? I've been waiting patiently.

I am sorry, but who are these experts you are referring to?

Hawkeye15
08-17-2013, 06:55 PM
I just gave some, can you show me where any expert agrees with what you and your buddies are saying? I've been waiting patiently.

you gave archaic boxscore stats and your opinion on his defense.

Try again.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:56 PM
I am sorry, but who are these experts you are referring to?

The dozens of Players, analyst, coachs, gms, etc in every video Amos1er posted. It's hard finding videos of people saying that Kobe wasn't the best during a 05-09 isn't it? :)

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 06:59 PM
you gave archaic boxscore stats and your opinion on his defense.

Try again.

Kobe's first all nba teams that year disagree with you... Oh wait, those are fake according to you guys. Do you have anything else besides 20 Lebron fans opinions on the matter? Still no video of people discrediting Kobe I see! That's strange, you would think that since Kobe was never the best ever, no experts would claim him to be...

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 07:09 PM
Kobe's first all nba teams that year disagree with you... Oh wait, those are fake according to you guys. Do you have anything else besides 20 Lebron fans opinions on the matter? Still no video of people discrediting Kobe I see! That's strange, you would think that since Kobe was never the best ever, no experts would claim him to be...


If coaches knew what they were doing half the time there wouldn't be only three starting coaches that have lasted more than four years.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/10/09/phil-jackson-lebron-james-potential-to-surpass-michael-jordan/1623137/

" "But he's kinda got the smell of it and even the Olympic experience this summer, he was the granted leader of that team and was the critical player when they needed something to happen in the final games. I think he's there. I think he's at that position. He's got good things ahead of him, and a lot of it depends upon if he's gonna be healthy for the remainder of his career."

There's Phil saying Lebron is better than Kobe. I know that's what you wanted to hear.

3RDASYSTEM
08-17-2013, 07:13 PM
Kobe is an enigma, his under appreciated career is a lot different than Duncan's. Duncan has always been a victim of being out of the spot light and going unnoticed. Kobe has two sides, the people who love him and the people who hate him. GMs, coaches and players have all given Kobe plenty of respect, when I say that I mean from the fans perspective.

Kobe only win titles because of Shaq, meanwhile Shaq could have won those three with a handful of SGs
Kobe can't get out of the first round with garbage in the west, so who cares if he scores 35 PPG?
Kobe scored 81 points, but it was the Toronto Raptors so who cares?
Kobe deserves like 3 of his All-Defensive 1st teams in his career tops, apparently. The rest are nonsense.
Kobe can't do anything but score, yet the only other guard with a better all around game in history is Jordan.
Kobe only achieves great scoring feats because he shoots a lot. Other players don't shoot a lot to score apparently.
Kobe only won more rings because of Pau Gasol, not the other way around.
Kobe only has 7 Finals appearances and 5 Rings because of great teammates. Only Kobe.
Kobe never played at the level that Tracy McGrady played at, had to bring that over from that crazy thread.

Really, that list can get annoyingly long.

SHAQ went to FINALS with PENNY before bean, SHAQ got swept with both bean and WADE and PENNY

bean is a flat out scorer/shooter, he scored 30pts in rookie game back in 97', he won HSPOY and was ranked like no 1 player out and chose to go to lakers and rode the pine(no player in history has ever done that and be top 10 ever)

post SHAQ as the lead alpha male he carried the lakers to like on avg 40 wins per year, that's a 16-27 win drop without SHAQ, they would win 56-67 games or so with that core, even with PAU first 3 years he would win 55+ it seemed, he can score but his impact is something to not be scared of

81pts is impressive in any league or era, isn't that the yr he won scoring title at 35ppg? didn't I mention from day 1 he was a scorer/shooter? well 10 yrs later he didn't change and into his 17th season he didn't change, geez I wonder why?

the only guard to mimmick copycat JORDAN was bean so therefore he is the closest to him right? you laker fans are amazing, even fans of MELO in DENVER didn't overrate the player they had that was a scorer/shooter

go check his greatest individual accomplishments, its all scoring for most part, 62pts in 3qtrs and back to back scoring titles, 9 straight something scoring binge and so on, 55 against JORDAN with WIZARDS

whats so funny and ironic is its the first thing you mention was his scoring/35ppg avg, basically outside of the most obvious when he was ROBIN and told PHIL he was tired of being a 'sidekick'

how can a superstar top 10 player ever be tired of a 'sidekick' role that should have never been on his radar since he was the 'franchise' guard, or did that title belong to eddie jones during that span? WADE is not BRON's sidekick nor was MAGIC any sidekick to ALCINDOR, and vice versa, they were/are equal, when you're top 10-20 best all time there is no sidekicking, just tag team of superstar/legends

bean is like the JETER of nba, playing a long time and getting to do what he does best, score
JETER can hit with the best of them, since he entered the mlb, see the pattern? how many mvp's do JETER have? how many years was he ranked most overrated in mlb because of his NYC market backing and playing good ball? nothing unreal just good hard work ethic style ball, 2 peas in the same pod, 5 rings to match

well it has been a laker tradition of having great players just look at the 19-20 combined FINALS trips made by MAGIC and WEST(do BAYLOR or ALCINDOR or WORTHY or WILT refresh your memory), is it so shocking that bean has gone to 7 FINALS in 17yrs in a laker uni? I mean SHAQ went to 4 in his 8yrs, that's a 50pct clip, unreal in sports realm, they have been top notch since 60's, well oiled machine like, why do you think bean chose lakers over nets/hornets on draft night? he is a damn good business man

MAGIC is dynamite but having a league mvp and no 1 option type in WORTHY helps out a lot, not to mention big time 6th man bench players who can light it up, you guys have no clue on how to judge players on individual basis

and if the nba was more top heavy back then and bean couldn't crack the 'best' player status then how come in now such a weak SG league is his status so high since the competition is so weak? you fans never cease to amaze, have it your way...burger king

out of TMAC and bean I give TMAC the edge, I just don't feel that VINCE and EDDIE are on the same level, both TMAC and bean were backup types, but TMAC was a wanted man, just a better player, bean could only player marginal defense better, TMAC had the length and athletic ability to defend when focused

like they say in the media, bean 'developed' into a superstar

I said he developed into a backupguard turned starter, see how I cant beat the media brainwashing?

how do you develop into a superstar when you are starting for west all stars but not for your regular season team

the more we talk about this the more funny it truly gets coming from a players perspective, no media bias here just what I saw transpire on the court from day 1

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 07:17 PM
If coaches knew what they were doing half the time there wouldn't be only three starting coaches that have lasted more than four years.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/10/09/phil-jackson-lebron-james-potential-to-surpass-michael-jordan/1623137/

" "But he's kinda got the smell of it and even the Olympic experience this summer, he was the granted leader of that team and was the critical player when they needed something to happen in the final games. I think he's there. I think he's at that position. He's got good things ahead of him, and a lot of it depends upon if he's gonna be healthy for the remainder of his career."

There's Phil saying Lebron is better than Kobe. I know that's what you wanted to hear.

Try again bro...

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 07:24 PM
Try again bro...


He thinks only Lebron can surpass MJ. I see no mention of Kobe.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 07:26 PM
He thinks only Lebron can surpass MJ. I see no mention of Kobe.

Cool, so you can't find any evidence of anyone claiming Kobe was never the best. I thought so, check mate and good day.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 07:30 PM
Cool, so you can't find any evidence of anyone claiming Kobe was never the best. I thought so, check mate and good day.
http://www.lakersnation.com/lebron-james-says-tim-duncan-not-kobe-is-generations-best-player/2013/06/06/

Felt you would like to see that Lebron thinks Duncan has always been better than Kobe.

Not that I put any merit into this stuff, but you will find plenty of people who think KG, Duncan, Shaq, and Dirk were better at Kobe at different years.

Will, they bring up Kobe? Nope, because he obviously wasn't the best. Hell, reporters only gave Kobe one MVP. And voters are stupid.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 07:35 PM
http://www.lakersnation.com/lebron-james-says-tim-duncan-not-kobe-is-generations-best-player/2013/06/06/

Felt you would like to see that Lebron thinks Duncan has always been better than Kobe.

Not that I put any merit into this stuff, but you will find plenty of people who think KG, Duncan, Shaq, and Dirk were better at Kobe at different years.

Will, they bring up Kobe? Nope, because he obviously wasn't the best. Hell, reporters only gave Kobe one MVP. And voters are stupid.

He also said this http://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84. I'll take Lebrons word over yours. Your guy's idol even claimed Kobe to be the best player in the league at some point.

Guppyfighter
08-17-2013, 07:36 PM
He also said this http://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84. I'll take Lebrons word over yours. Your guy's idol even claimed Kobe to be the best player in the league at some point.

That's nice. Like I said. That doesn't really matter.

jericho
08-17-2013, 07:40 PM
Let's see, the opinions of great basketball minds, players, coaches, gms, or those of PSD. This is a tough one... I love how PSD comes together to try and discredit anything Laker related. You all think because you agree on something on this pathetic site that it transfers into the real world. Reality check guys, most people not on here would laugh at anything you guys claim. Amos1er showed you guys compelling evidence of many people claiming him to be the best player in the world at some point, now show me people who said he's wasn't. I'll wait.

Please oh please back up his claims with some stats and compare them to his competition each year where you think he was the clear cut best or close to the best.

We are not disrespecting him by saying that he was a top 5 player each yr and that his all time great status came from his longevity not him being the clear cut best that's just us accepting reality for what it is.

Lastly if this site is so pathetic why do you keep on posting on it there is a lot of other sites that would support your love for Kobe go ahead and find one of them then.

jericho
08-17-2013, 07:45 PM
I ain't no Kobe fan and I ain't no Lebron fan either so my opinion is really from an unbiased view of things. For me Kobe has never been the clear cut best player in the league scoring isn't the only thing to measure a good player and r for the rings argument that I'm sure somebody will bring later on you can pretty much put KD Lebron Wade CP3 in his place and they would have won as many if not more rings than Kobe. It's easy to win that many rings when his team was stacked the refs are on your side and you had one of the best coaches the league ever had (although I don't agree with that).

Right, it's not like Kobe Bryant is one of the best all-around players in NBA history or anything.

Are we arguing bout him being a clear cut best in some years or bout Kobe having one of the best all around games in nba history?? Cuz I thought it was the first one

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 07:51 PM
Please oh please back up his claims with some stats and compare them to his competition each year where you think he was the clear cut best or close to the best.

We are not disrespecting him by saying that he was a top 5 player each yr and that his all time great status came from his longevity not him being the clear cut best that's just us accepting reality for what it is.

Lastly if this site is so pathetic why do you keep on posting on it there is a lot of other sites that would support your love for Kobe go ahead and find one of them then.

Come up with something on your own. Hawkeye throws out the longevity argument and you guys recycle it. It is well known (besides here I guess) that Kobe was the best player in the world between 05-09. I have dozens of experts agreeing with me. Why is it that the only one who agree with you are PSD kids? Coincidence? I think not.

3RDASYSTEM
08-17-2013, 07:55 PM
http://www.lakersnation.com/lebron-james-says-tim-duncan-not-kobe-is-generations-best-player/2013/06/06/

Felt you would like to see that Lebron thinks Duncan has always been better than Kobe.

Not that I put any merit into this stuff, but you will find plenty of people who think KG, Duncan, Shaq, and Dirk were better at Kobe at different years.

Will, they bring up Kobe? Nope, because he obviously wasn't the best. Hell, reporters only gave Kobe one MVP. And voters are stupid.

DUNCAN has always been better(not flashier), just look at him leading with aging HOF'er in DROB and bean getting swept 2x in first 3yrs with the modern day WILT

this gets funnier by the day I sware

someone on here mentioned how PAU led lakers in win shares during that 3peat run

I look at it like this = when bean went to the bench and the offense flowed strictly thru PAU they would bump up the lead from like 2-4 to 8-12pts without the so called 'best' player in the league

see how that equates to PAU's 'win shares' without me ever needed to see that stat? just watch the game for years very closely

playing it just makes it 2nd nature in some form to me, puts you to a closer feel for the game

if you just watching from the couch you really shouldn't even comment, ever

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 07:57 PM
That's nice. Like I said. That doesn't really matter.

Doesn't it make you sound stupid if Lebron himself said the Kobe was the best player in the world, and some kid on the internet says he's wrong?

WadeKobe
08-17-2013, 07:58 PM
03: KG, TD, TMac were better.
04: KG, TD, Ben Walace
05: KG, Nash
06: KG
07: Nowitzki
08: Paul, LeBron
09: LeBron, Wade
10: LeBron, Paul, Howard, Wade
11: LeBron, Wade, Howard, Paul
12: LeBron, Paul, Durant, Wade
13: LeBron, Durant

So, no, Kobe was never the best player in the NBA, definitely not clear cut best. He was, however, often in the top 5

3RDASYSTEM
08-17-2013, 07:59 PM
He also said this http://youtu.be/Fv37ykpYk84. I'll take Lebrons word over yours. Your guy's idol even claimed Kobe to be the best player in the league at some point.

DALY said IVERSON was top 10 alltime in history and everybody and they mama on here laughed and destroyed that quote, someone on here said DALY and others go soft after they retire and do media, for whatever that is worth, but I believe DALY, does that make me right or wrong

SHAQ said he was top 5 ever to lace'em up, I agree with SHAQ does that make me right or wrong?

MUTOMBO said IVERSON was in the ilk of 1-4 players to ever play the game in his 18yrs of playing, I agree with him so am I right or wrong, you cant have it both ways

its just my opinion and from others, some are manufactured most are legit because the proof is in the pudding from day 1, rookie year

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 08:01 PM
03: KG, TD, TMac were better.
04: KG, TD, Ben Walace
05: KG, Nash
06: KG
07: Nowitzki
08: Paul, LeBron
09: LeBron, Wade
10: LeBron, Paul, Howard, Wade
11: LeBron, Wade, Howard, Paul
12: LeBron, Paul, Durant, Wade
13: LeBron, Durant

So, no, Kobe was never the best player in the NBA, definitely not clear cut best. He was, however, often in the top 5

Oh look another recycled Hawkeye post.Care to find evidence of experts backing your claims up?

3RDASYSTEM
08-17-2013, 08:03 PM
03: KG, TD, TMac were better.
04: KG, TD, Ben Walace
05: KG, Nash
06: KG
07: Nowitzki
08: Paul, LeBron
09: LeBron, Wade
10: LeBron, Paul, Howard, Wade
11: LeBron, Wade, Howard, Paul
12: LeBron, Paul, Durant, Wade
13: LeBron, Durant

So, no, Kobe was never the best player in the NBA, definitely not clear cut best. He was, however, often in the top 5

its funny because in 03 that's when bean fans claim he was the 'best' or right there

so sad 7yrs later

now look at the rest of your list and you don't even have him on there, where was he the first 6yrs of his career besides half of it as a backupguard?

I don't agree with you leaving IVERSON out, he was on the map in his ROY 96-97 campaign and never slowed down just played with a worse cast than CP3/BRON had prior to the teams they moved on from

from 96-08' he is on the list no doubt

jericho
08-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Please oh please back up his claims with some stats and compare them to his competition each year where you think he was the clear cut best or close to the best.

We are not disrespecting him by saying that he was a top 5 player each yr and that his all time great status came from his longevity not him being the clear cut best that's just us accepting reality for what it is.

Lastly if this site is so pathetic why do you keep on posting on it there is a lot of other sites that would support your love for Kobe go ahead and find one of them then.

Come up with something on your own. Hawkeye throws out the longevity argument and you guys recycle it. It is well known (besides here I guess) that Kobe was the best player in the world between 05-09. I have dozens of experts agreeing with me. Why is it that the only one who agree with you are PSD kids? Coincidence? I think not.

Lmao well I think it's bout that you take your own advice and come up with something of your own dont use amosier's videos as your back up claim just show us instead

jericho
08-17-2013, 08:07 PM
Please oh please back up his claims with some stats and compare them to his competition each year where you think he was the clear cut best or close to the best.

We are not disrespecting him by saying that he was a top 5 player each yr and that his all time great status came from his longevity not him being the clear cut best that's just us accepting reality for what it is.

Lastly if this site is so pathetic why do you keep on posting on it there is a lot of other sites that would support your love for Kobe go ahead and find one of them then.

Come up with something on your own. Hawkeye throws out the longevity argument and you guys recycle it. It is well known (besides here I guess) that Kobe was the best player in the world between 05-09. I have dozens of experts agreeing with me. Why is it that the only one who agree with you are PSD kids? Coincidence? I think not.

Btw I ain't a kid if that's the best you have to back up your claim I feel sorry for you.

Bruno
08-17-2013, 08:46 PM
saying "clear cut" makes this very up hill for anyone trying to say Kobe was tops for 5+ years. debatably, he's was the best for a very long time. clear cut? different discussion.

slashsnake
08-17-2013, 09:11 PM
I don't agree with you leaving IVERSON out, he was on the map in his ROY 96-97 campaign and never slowed down just played with a worse cast than CP3/BRON had prior to the teams they moved on from

from 96-08' he is on the list no doubt

Iverson is a tough one... Because he was kind of the anti-Jordan. Didn't care about practice, would leave his defender and gamble for steals all the time (and while he got a lot, plenty made it by him to wide open guys), struggled defending bigger guards, and shot volume rather than well.

I think just about every year he was in the league I'd have taken Shaq or another elite big man (Duncan/Garnett) over him.

And if you want something to back up that Kobe was never the best... I know all stats are jaded, but look at win shares. Jordan led the league in that for 9 years. Karl Malone had a couple, David Robinson a couple. During Kobe's career, it has been Shaq early on, Then Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Paul, and Lebron. Kobe never made the top 3.

When he was at his best. The lakers weren't a championship contender (few years after Shaq left).

I guess there is the argument that he has an MVP from 07/08. But that to me is one of those like what Malone/Barkley got. One where you say hey this guy is a top 20 all time player, he deserves an MVP for his career. Lebron that year had more points, a better FG%, more rebounds, assists, blocks, same steals. Chris Paul that year outshot Kobe in every category, had a lot more assists (and fewer turnovers), more steals, etc. And Paul led his team to 1 fewer win than the Lakers. Garnett with Boston in year 1 had a huge year as well. Honestly Kobe’s “best” year is debatable that he was the best in the league. I’d say he deserved that years, but no more than if Paul or Lebron won it. It wouldn’t be like Durant or Melo winning MVP over Lebron this past season, where Lebron was the clear choice.


Now there is nothing wrong at all with that. I would say he’s the best player since Jordan. He played at a top 5 level for a LOT of years. Jerry West was never the best player in the NBA in a given season. He’s one of the top 10 guys in league history in my opinion. Elgin Baylor, Havlicek, and Rick Barry are a few others I really think were all time greats without having that one year where they were the best in the league in their careers.

Pablonovi
08-17-2013, 09:36 PM
Maybe I'm missing something. I'm a an acknowledge Kobe-lover and Hawkeye is an acknowledged Kobe-Hater. We are both claiming that he is definitely in the All-Time Top 10. Every expert opinion I've seen in the last year (or more) agrees that Kobe belongs in the All-Time Top 10; though almost none of them have him in the All-Time Top 5. So, all the Kobe-defenders here, I don' see the big problem; unless you're arguing that he is already in the All-Time Top 5; there's a lot of agreement around that what he's done during the last 15 years (Top 3-5 every year) is proof-positive of All-Time Greatness.

The OP asked for opinions about Kobe being undeniably the #1 guy. Myself I think a good case can be made for 1-3 years that he was #1; but even in those years, I think that a good case could be made that he wasn't way better than the #2s of those years.

jericho
08-17-2013, 09:54 PM
Maybe I'm missing something. I'm a an acknowledge Kobe-lover and Hawkeye is an acknowledged Kobe-Hater. We are both claiming that he is definitely in the All-Time Top 10. Every expert opinion I've seen in the last year (or more) agrees that Kobe belongs in the All-Time Top 10; though almost none of them have him in the All-Time Top 5. So, all the Kobe-defenders here, I don' see the big problem; unless you're arguing that he is already in the All-Time Top 5; there's a lot of agreement around that what he's done during the last 15 years (Top 3-5 every year) is proof-positive of All-Time Greatness.

The OP asked for opinions about Kobe being undeniably the #1 guy. Myself I think a good case can be made for 1-3 years that he was #1; but even in those years, I think that a good case could be made that he wasn't way better than the #2s of those years.

This is an excelent post. I may not agree with you believing that kobe was the best at some point but atleast you are open minded to believe that there maybe a case for somebody else. Cudos to you welcome to PSD im looking forward to your future posts. :cheers:

Pablonovi
08-17-2013, 11:37 PM
This is an excelent post. I may not agree with you believing that kobe was the best at some point but atleast you are open minded to believe that there maybe a case for somebody else. Cudos to you welcome to PSD im looking forward to your future posts. :cheers:

Dear Jericho,
You don't know how much I appreciate your:
1) own (open-minded) comment;
2) compliment about the quality of my post; and
3) welcome here.

I must admit that there's something about Kobe (and not just his incredible work-ethic; nor my 55 years of Lakers-fanism) that deeply appeals to me. On the other hand, it was reviewing the well-reasoned arguments I have found here on PSD-NBA, that has definitely toned-down (not the love) but a little extra-bias. I am NOT opposed in principle to being convinced that you are right and that in NO year was he even #1. Afterall, it's NOT his Peak that makes him an All-Time Top 10er; it's his phenomenally long-term Top-5ishness. Any individual yearly-rating during a 17+ year great career (of course the first 2 years were NOT that great) can NOT affect his career-legacy. I'd rather feel as sure as possible of the truth, than by blind by homerism.
- - - - - - -
I am a good deal weirder than the average PSD-NBA poster (actually, weirder compared to the overall general population too); but that inevitably leaves me in considerably more doubt about whether I'm just full-of-sh__, talking out of my arse, or maybe, just maybe, being reasonable. Your post brought both more mental-peace to my head and emotional warmth to my heart.

I really appreciate it.
Thanx,
Pablo

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 12:22 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. I'm a an acknowledge Kobe-lover and Hawkeye is an acknowledged Kobe-Hater. We are both claiming that he is definitely in the All-Time Top 10. Every expert opinion I've seen in the last year (or more) agrees that Kobe belongs in the All-Time Top 10; though almost none of them have him in the All-Time Top 5. So, all the Kobe-defenders here, I don' see the big problem; unless you're arguing that he is already in the All-Time Top 5; there's a lot of agreement around that what he's done during the last 15 years (Top 3-5 every year) is proof-positive of All-Time Greatness.

The OP asked for opinions about Kobe being undeniably the #1 guy. Myself I think a good case can be made for 1-3 years that he was #1; but even in those years, I think that a good case could be made that he wasn't way better than the #2s of those years.

One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.

Pablonovi
08-18-2013, 12:38 AM
One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.

Hey Hawk,
But, But, But, you even admit you're a Kobe-Hater! (hehe)

About this flame-warring, or is it, flaming-wars:
Maybe it's because I was young too damned long ago, so I just don't remember my idiot-self from back then; but it seems to me I never got this nasty over defending a favorite player or team. I joke and compliment frequently because that's who I've always been and still am. BUT I think I'd PRETEND to be that way just to try to help tone down this UGLY style. (I think most of the quickest-to-anger people here, a decade or two into the future, are going to look back on this and CRINGE over how PETTY they were).

IT'S ONLY A GAME! SHOW ME we can all be more civil; maybe a lot more civil!

DaLakerz Rulz
08-18-2013, 12:40 AM
One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.

Haha you obviously know no one will be able to. The numbers just don't back it up. The way he plays the game is just not conducive to efficiency or pretty stats.

jerellh528
08-18-2013, 12:41 AM
One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.

Did you watch bball prior to 2010? If so, you can watch the proof there. What exactly do you want shown to you? Advanced stats? C'mon dude, stats show a small portion of the story. If you want to be shown, then watch old seasons and remember.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 12:46 AM
OK, now show me where experts claim him not to be the best. Ohh let me guess, all you got to back you up is 20 Lebron nut huggers on PSD... No surprise.

lol why would i want to search for youtube clips of current/former coaches/players opinions. i won't even take the time to watch the ones in the op since i know it'd be a waste. those opinions are just people giving respect and getting carried away in some cases, while in others just being flat out wrong. they ultimately don't mean anything at all. you are the one with the burden of proof since you are claiming kobe was something the majority in this thread disagree with. show us some facts and make a case or gtfo!

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 12:48 AM
Haha you obviously know no one will be able to. The numbers just don't back it up. The way he plays the game is just not conducive to efficiency or pretty stats.

But isn't that part of it? Shouldn't the numbers back up our eyes? The way the players ahead of Kobe played IS conducive to pretty stats. That is telling to me...

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 12:49 AM
Did you watch bball prior to 2010? If so, you can watch the proof there. What exactly do you want shown to you? Advanced stats? C'mon dude, stats show a small portion of the story. If you want to be shown, then watch old seasons and remember.

I watched the 1984 NBA finals. With my eyes. It doesn't mean I believe every single thing my eyes see, I also need validation via numbers. And both my eyes, and the numbers, show me that Kobe did not have a claim to being the best player at any given point, no argument. Not like MJ, Wilt, Shaq, Jabbar, or LeBron.

jerellh528
08-18-2013, 01:02 AM
One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.


I watched the 1984 NBA finals. With my eyes. It doesn't mean I believe every single thing my eyes see, I also need validation via numbers. And both my eyes, and the numbers, show me that Kobe did not have a claim to being the best player at any given point, no argument. Not like MJ, Wilt, Shaq, Jabbar, or LeBron.

Ok, so you're an anomaly.

Hawkeye15
08-18-2013, 01:07 AM
Ok, so you're an anomaly.

haha, I don't know if you mean that as a compliment or an insult.

Honestly, I watched Kobe's entire career. My eyes tell me his is top 6-7. Stats tell me is he is top 20. But I rank him around top 10.

Matter.
08-18-2013, 01:11 AM
Appreciate greatness.

FraziersKnicks
08-18-2013, 05:16 AM
2000-01 - Shaquille O'Neal
2001-02 - Shaquille O'Neal
2002-03 - Shaquille O'Neal
2003-04 - Kevin Garnett
2004-05 - Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan
2005-06 - Dwyane Wade and Dirk Nowitzki
2006-07 - Dirk Nowitzki
2007-08 - LeBron James and Chris Paul
2008-09 - LeBron James
2009-10 - LeBron James
2010-11 - LeBron James
2011-12 - LeBron James
2012-13 - LeBron James

So no, Kobe has never been the clear cut best player in the league. The only year he was close to being the best player in the league was 05-06 but in my opinion he wasn't even the best SG in the league that year (behind Wade).

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-18-2013, 03:20 PM
One of the biggest reasons I don't get involved, in detail, with Kobe discussions anymore, is this:

I ask a simple question. "PROVE TO ME THAT KOBE WAS THE BEST IN ANY GIVEN YEAR?".

The results? I get called a hater, troll, Bron lover (never sure were that came from), etc. Instead of actually trying to persuade me, it's just a flame war.

Again, Kobe fans, or anyone who really believes there was no argument as to him being the best player in any given year. SHOW ME.

Sure, as soon as you show me where an expert that is ten times more qualified than you agrees with you and not me.

naps
08-18-2013, 03:49 PM
2000-01 - Shaquille O'Neal
2001-02 - Shaquille O'Neal
2002-03 - Shaquille O'Neal
2003-04 - Kevin Garnett
2004-05 - Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan
2005-06 - Dwyane Wade and Dirk Nowitzki
2006-07 - Dirk Nowitzki
2007-08 - LeBron James and Chris Paul
2008-09 - LeBron James
2009-10 - LeBron James
2010-11 - LeBron James
2011-12 - LeBron James
2012-13 - LeBron James

So no, Kobe has never been the clear cut best player in the league. The only year he was close to being the best player in the league was 05-06 but in my opinion he wasn't even the best SG in the league that year (behind Wade).

Pretty much this. Kobe was never the best in the league. He is great because he's been elite for so long but he never was the best. OP wanted to finally get a consensus and the poll so far providing us with a very expected and fair review.

EDIT: Why is the poll private? I am expecting a late surge of dupes to alter the poll results.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 03:54 PM
Sure, as soon as you show me where an expert that is ten times more qualified than you agrees with you and not me.

They aren't actually experts. If you gave them a position like MJ they would fail miserably, like MJ.

naps
08-18-2013, 03:57 PM
Advanced stats basically backs up every great players peak through the years from Jordan to Duncan to Shaq to KG to Duncan again to Wade to Dirk to Lebron. For some reason it doesn't back up Kobe in terms of his peak.

Logically, advanced stats are useless and broken.


CONSPIRACY!

Hah the truth. I wonder why those so called made up stats favor all the greats of the greats but no much Kobe.

IndyRealist
08-18-2013, 03:59 PM
One of the "hoodrat ex players that doesn't know a thing about basketball" is michael jordan AKA the GOAT.. I hope you are being sarcastic..

Because MJ's been spectacular at player evaluation....

IndyRealist
08-18-2013, 03:59 PM
Hah the truth. I wonder why those so called made up stats favor all the greats of the greats but no much Kobe.

Untrue. Stats hate Iverson.

jericho
08-18-2013, 04:02 PM
Sure, as soon as you show me where an expert that is ten times more qualified than you agrees with you and not me.

Time to be more original, use your own advice and bring something of value to the table instead of bringing up amosiers videos

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 04:10 PM
He said Kobe is the best player for these years.

2004-2005 BELOW FIVE HUNDRED, NO TITLE, NO WILL TO WIN

2005-2006 CONGRATS ON LOSING IN THE FIRST ROUND, LOSER..

2006-2007 GOOD JOB ON NOT WINNING ANYTHING AGAIN

2007-2008 DIDN'T EVEN WILL HIS TEAM TO BEAT THE CELTICS, PFFT LOSER. KG IS THE BEST.

2008-2009 PAU WAS BETTER. HE WILLED THE LAKERS TO WIN. HE JUST HAD THE HEART.

I am going to apply some of his logic across the board.

ztilzer31
08-18-2013, 04:14 PM
Never was, and that's the biggest reason why Kobe being even in relevance when talking about the true top players ever to play this game is ridiculous.

He's a greatpalyer, and his durability puts his worth even higher than his stats, but by no means has he ever been considered the best.

Kobe is Basketball's Hank Aaron without the home run title.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 04:15 PM
Sure, as soon as you show me where an expert that is ten times more qualified than you agrees with you and not me.

just for the heck of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6gNuVLq4c

at the very end of this clip from 06 shaq calls dwade the best player in the world. didn't bother looking it up, but i know pat riley calls wade BIW for best in the world then too. so there you have it, video proof of a hof player saying wade and not kobe is the best in the world.

so according to some of the kobe fans reasoning that means wade must of been the best that year. and wasn't that also the year kobe averaged his 35pts(on 27shots), so there goes his best season and therefore his best chance for being the best in a given year. amosloler/delusionist twisted logic backfires once again.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:35 PM
Sure, as soon as you show me where an expert that is ten times more qualified than you agrees with you and not me.

I have posted evidence of even Lebron James himself coming out and saying Kobe was the best in the NBA from 06-10. What more could I do. If that doesn't convince him, then nothing will. Some people are just going to hate no matter what sort of truths you present to them. You can tell some people that the sky is blue and they will still argue with you. You just have to throw your hands up in the air at some point. I have tried for years to educate these people to no avail. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother. Guess I just get sick of them trying to spread their twisted propaganda online in fear that some might actually believe it for a second... Though anyone with any shred of intelligence truly just has to laugh at this hogwash. The Prosportsdaily NBA forum is truly a unique place.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:39 PM
just for the heck of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6gNuVLq4c

at the very end of this clip from 06 shaq calls dwade the best player in the world. didn't bother looking it up, but i know pat riley calls wade BIW for best in the world then too. so there you have it, video proof of a hof player saying wade and not kobe is the best in the world.

so according to some of the kobe fans reasoning that means wade must of been the best that year. and wasn't that also the year kobe averaged his 35pts(on 27shots), so there goes his best season and therefore his best chance for being the best in a given year. amosloler/delusionist twisted logic backfires once again.

Here is a better one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 04:40 PM
Here is a better one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

OH GOD LOL

Don't throw stones in glass houses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:41 PM
He said Kobe is the best player for these years.

2004-2005 BELOW FIVE HUNDRED, NO TITLE, NO WILL TO WIN

2005-2006 CONGRATS ON LOSING IN THE FIRST ROUND, LOSER..

2006-2007 GOOD JOB ON NOT WINNING ANYTHING AGAIN

2007-2008 DIDN'T EVEN WILL HIS TEAM TO BEAT THE CELTICS, PFFT LOSER. KG IS THE BEST.

2008-2009 PAU WAS BETTER. HE WILLED THE LAKERS TO WIN. HE JUST HAD THE HEART.

I am going to apply some of his logic across the board.

Your hate is so transparent that no one can take your opinion on this matter seriously.

naps
08-18-2013, 04:41 PM
Untrue. Stats hate Iverson.

Iverson is not among greats of the greats. No where near it. I am talking all time rankings.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:42 PM
OH GOD LOL

Don't throw stones in glass houses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

Well, I can express my thoughts for some of you who clearly did not watch that series.

For one, during the whole series, the Kings shot 204 FTs and the Lakers shot 185 FTs.

In the controversial game 6, the Lakers shot 15 more FTs than the Kings did for the whole game. What is often mentioned by people who did actually watch the whole series is that game 6 was the reversal of game 5, which the Kings got the beneficial calls that sealed the win for them.

Also, to point out, the largest FT discrepancy came in game 3, where the Kings shot 20 more FTs than the Lakers did. In game 2, the Kings shot 13 more FTs than the Lakers did.

Up until game 6, it was believed by many players that the Kings were getting lots of help. Mobley mentioned this on the Best Damn Sports Show between games 5 and 6.

In the end, the Kings had a 10+ FT advantage in 3 of the 7 games. The Lakers only had 1 game where they shot more than a double digit against the Kings. Kind of odd when one team has a near prime Shaq and a prime Kobe, no?

Watch the whole series and then let's talk. Until then, it's useless to debate.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:43 PM
Iverson is not among greats of the greats. No where near it. I am talking all time rankings.

Lol oh no you didn. You are going to break 3RDASYSTEMS heart with that sort of talk. :laugh:

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 04:46 PM
Well, I can express my thoughts for some of you who clearly did not watch that series.

For one, during the whole series, the Kings shot 204 FTs and the Lakers shot 185 FTs.

In the controversial game 6, the Lakers shot 15 more FTs than the Kings did for the whole game. What is often mentioned by people who did actually watch the whole series is that game 6 was the reversal of game 5, which the Kings got the beneficial calls that sealed the win for them.

Also, to point out, the largest FT discrepancy came in game 3, where the Kings shot 20 more FTs than the Lakers did. In game 2, the Kings shot 13 more FTs than the Lakers did.

Up until game 6, it was believed by many players that the Kings were getting lots of help. Mobley mentioned this on the Best Damn Sports Show between games 5 and 6.

In the end, the Kings had a 10+ FT advantage in 3 of the 7 games. The Lakers only had 1 game where they shot more than a double digit against the Kings. Kind of odd when one team has a near prime Shaq and a prime Kobe, no?

Watch the whole series and then let's talk. Until then, it's useless to debate.


Contextless numbers. Try watching the games. Everyone who did knows the Kings were being ****ing jipped. If you watch that video "EXPERTS" will tell you that game is fishy.

Everyone knows the Kings were getting those free throws through legitimate means. Playing fantastic offense and getting into the paint. Lakers were playing **** defense on the best passing team in the league.

And then game six happened where the calls were obviously not legitimate. Kobe elbowing mike bibby and getting free throws for it. 27 FREE THROWS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER.

If you don't think that game was rigged you are ****ed in the head. You watch the ****ing series.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:46 PM
I don't think KB was ever the best in the NBA. Gasol led them in win shares during the back to back titles. he's probably the most underrated player of all time(he should be a no brainer for the hall of fame), he was bigtime 08-10 to put it mildly. never leading your team in win shares during championship years is pretty weak for someone who many claim was the best in the nba for years, or top 5 ever. he's outside of my top 10 all time. you could just tell during the 08-10 years that the 3 bigmen were the real threat on the Lakers. they rebounded EVERYTHNG, & all shot a great fg%. whenever Kobe bricked they'd just grab the offensive RB & put it in. their size was beyond a nightmare for the rest of the league, & took years to figure out. Lebron, Wade, or Chris Paul just for example could have easly won those titles in KB's place with that stacked frontcourt they had

years after His Airness left, all basically in order

1999. Tim Dunan, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Mailbags, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant,
2000. Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Alonzo Mourning, Kobe Bryant, Karl Mailbags
2001. Shaquille, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson
2002. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, kidd, Pierce
2003. Duncan, Shaq, Tmac, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Kidd
2004. Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Tmac, Billups, Kobe, Dirk
2005. Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, Shaq, Dirk, Nash, Kobe
2006. Wade, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2007. Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Tony Parker, Kobe, Gasol
2008. Lebron, Chris Paul, Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Pierce, Gasol, Wade
2009. LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol,
2010. LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Gasol
2011. Dirk, LeBron, Rose, Durant, Wade, Chris Paul, Kobe (yes Dirk was the best this year, LeBron's mind was off due to beng the villan. he didn't play quite up to his standards, stunk in the finals, & Dirk owned the playoffs & finals)
2012. Lebron, Durnat, Wade, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Kobe, Kevin Love
2013. LeBron, Durant, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Melo, Hardan, Kyrie Irving (kb fell off, no defense the past few years)

OMG!

Just some free advice... Don't ever go repeating any of this in public. lol

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 04:48 PM
OMG!

Just some free advice... Don't ever go repeating any of this in public. lol

Amoser has his back against the wall if he thinks people in the general public care or know who was the best during this time. I guess he lives in LA where it's a dick sucking contest for Kobe.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:51 PM
Contextless numbers.

Everyone knows the Kings were getting those free throws through legitimate means. Playing fantastic offense and getting into the paint. Lakers were playing **** defense on the best passing team in the league.

And then game six happened where the calls were obviously not legitimate. Kobe elbowing mike bibby and getting free throws for it. 27 FREE THROWS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER.

If you don't think that game was rigged you are ****ed in the head.

When did I ever defend what happened in the 4th quarter of game 6?

All I'm saying is that OVERALL the series was called in favor of the Kings.

The Lakers may have gotten game 6 handed to them I AGREE, but the Kings got games 3 and 5 handed to them as well has getting more calls than the Lakers for the ENTIRE SERIES even with a prime Kobe and Shaq.

In the end, the Kings lost a game 7 AT HOME when the calls were even. At the end of the day... The better team won. End of story.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:52 PM
Amoser has his back against the wall if he thinks people in the general public care or know who was the best during this time. I guess he lives in LA where it's a dick sucking contest for Kobe.

Lebron thinks Kobe was the best during that time... Guess by your logic he must be in a duck sucking contest for Kobe too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 04:53 PM
I have posted evidence of even Lebron James himself coming out and saying Kobe was the best in the NBA from 06-10. What more could I do. If that doesn't convince him, then nothing will. Some people are just going to hate no matter what sort of truths you present to them. You can tell some people that the sky is blue and they will still argue with you. You just have to throw your hands up in the air at some point. I have tried for years to educate these people to no avail. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother. Guess I just get sick of them trying to spread their twisted propaganda online in fear that some might actually believe it for a second... Though anyone with any shred of intelligence truly just has to laugh at this hogwash. The Prosportsdaily NBA forum is truly a unique place.

lol that's called being humble. i'm sure players always give their honest opinion when put on the spot on tv with awkward questions :rolleyes:. so rose says hes the best right now in the nba, does that make it true since it's his "expert opinion"?

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 04:54 PM
Here is a better one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

lol it never ceases to amaze me how low you'll stoop to try and raise kobe above his peers through bashing them.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 04:57 PM
Amoser and the illusionist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fV1FP38ecI

amos1er
08-18-2013, 04:59 PM
Because I can defend my stance without pointing to others for help. Google the appeal to authority fallacy

The appeal to authority fallacy is when their isn't a general consensus amongst the given field of experts. That does not apply in this situation as their obviously is an overwhelming general consensus amongst the experts.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:01 PM
The appeal to authority fallacy is when their isn't a general consensus amongst the given field of experts. That does not apply in this situation as their obviously is an overwhelming general consensus amongst the experts.

Actually, it always applies. The appeal to authority fallacy. But you are wrong if you think there is a consensus.

Pretty funny stuff.

Check out the video I posted.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:03 PM
lol that's called being humble. i'm sure players always give their honest opinion when put on the spot on tv with awkward questions :rolleyes:. so rose says hes the best right now in the nba, does that make it true since it's his "expert opinion"?

Lol talk about rationalizations. Come on man. Now you are going to try to argue that the people who gave their opinions weren't being honest as if you have some sort of ability to actually prove this. :laugh: Give me a break. Denial is an ugly thing... Truly. So now your a mind reader. :facepalm: These people are the greatest experts in their respective fields... Their opinions are credible. Your just going to have to learn to deal with the truth.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 05:05 PM
lol i still can't believe that this whole pro kobe argument is only supported by youtube clips of old interviews. that's a complete joke. you kobe fans have to do a whole lot better than that, this is pathetic. make a legit fact based case for your boy or leave it alone already. have fun with the uphill climb!

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:05 PM
Laker fans are the worst.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:05 PM
Actually, it always applies. The appeal to authority fallacy. But you are wrong if you think there is a consensus.

Pretty funny stuff.

Check out the video I posted.

There is a consensus. I provided more than enough expert testimony and neither you or anyone else has provided any refuting expert testimony.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 05:06 PM
Lol talk about rationalizations. Come on man. Now you are going to try to argue that the people who gave their opinions weren't being honest as if you have some sort of ability to actually prove this. :laugh: Give me a break. Denial is an ugly thing... Truly. So now your a mind reader. :facepalm: These people are the greatest experts in their respective fields... Their opinions are credible. Your just going to have to learn to deal with the truth.


you're the one in denial that obviously can't handle the truth...stats don't lie, but just keep your blinders on.

naps
08-18-2013, 05:07 PM
Here is a better one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas


So he put your back against the wall using your very own theory of why a specific player is the best and now you got nothing to say but troll? Let me guess, if an ex-player or so called expert say Kobe is the best it makes sense to you but if they say someone else is the best then it doesn't make sense anymore? Stop making yourself a laughing stock. You created a thread with the intention of everyone agreeing with you? The consensus you looked forward to and apparently created this thread for is now saying Kobe was never the best. What do you say?

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 05:09 PM
There is a consensus. I provided more than enough expert testimony and neither you or anyone else has provided any refuting expert testimony.

the funniest part about this, is you put "clear cut" in your own thread title, therefore pretty much making it impossible for you or your fellow fanboys to prove your case. good luck with your youtube searches though lol.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:09 PM
lol i still can't believe that this whole pro kobe argument is only supported by youtube clips of old interviews. that's a complete joke. you kobe fans have to do a whole lot better than that, this is pathetic. make a legit fact based case for your boy or leave it alone already. have fun with the uphill climb!

Lol... Would you think they were more credible if I linked them from somewhere else. Now your just being ridiculous. Video evidence is video evidence... No matter what the source.

alexander_37
08-18-2013, 05:09 PM
0

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:10 PM
the funniest part about this, is you put "clear cut" in your own thread title, therefore pretty much making it impossible for you or your fellow fanboys to prove your case. good luck with your youtube searches though lol.

Again with the attacks on youtube as if that makes these video testimonies any less credible. Come on man... Now your just grasping for straws.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:10 PM
All the haters present and accounted for.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:12 PM
Amoser is hilarious.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 05:15 PM
Lol... Would you think they were more credible if I linked them from somewhere else. Now your just being ridiculous. Video evidence is video evidence... No matter what the source.

true, except it's not video evidence of anything. it's video of several people's opinions lol. you can't tell the difference can you? it's funny how you just ignored my video of shaq calling wade the best and showed a video about finals reffing, your bs logic only works when it's in your favor i see. you and this entire arguement for kobe so far in this thread as been nothing but pathetic, there's no debate just you claiming opinions as fact without factual evidence to back up those claims. i'm out of here thanks for the laughs but your act has grown old and stale now.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:16 PM
Why are we giving credence to what amoser is saying by replying. If he doesn't want to engage in any kind of higher discussion, that's fine. Just ignore him.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:16 PM
So he put your back against the wall using your very own theory of why a specific player is the best and now you got nothing to say but troll? Let me guess, if an ex-player or so called expert say Kobe is the best it makes sense to you but if they say someone else is the best then it doesn't make sense anymore? Stop making yourself a laughing stock. You created a thread with the intention of everyone agreeing with you? The consensus you looked forward to and apparently created this thread for is now saying Kobe was never the best. What do you say?

All this proves is that the majority of posters on this forum are Kobe haters and luckily thats not the norm. 95% of the experts all would laugh at you if you tried to convince them that Kobe was never the clear cut best player in the NBA. You may be able to get away with this non sense on line, but in the real world I'll bet you would never make this argument because saying this stuff out loud to anyone of an sort of intelligence would just be a disaster and quite the embarrassing little incident I would imagine.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-18-2013, 05:17 PM
They aren't actually experts. If you gave them a position like MJ they would fail miserably, like MJ.


Who else would I trust, some random guy on the internet? Lawl

naps
08-18-2013, 05:19 PM
Laker fans are the worst.

NO. kobe fans. True Lakers are people like Shep, Bruno etc. These are all kobephiles who, due to their insecurities, create threads, set their criteria of youtube clips but nothing else, expect people to agree with them, and bash people n troll their own threads if people say otherwise.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:22 PM
Why are we giving credence to what amoser is saying by replying. If he doesn't want to engage in any kind of higher discussion, that's fine. Just ignore him.

Wow... Mad props bro. You've figured it all out. You're a genius.

Anyone who doesn't lick Lebron's *** isn't worthy of being in your higher discussion club. Lol Just look how ridiculous that sounds.

Funny thing is I show this site to all of my friends and they all just crack up to the extent people hate on Kobe. It really is a joke. News flash... You are all in the silent minority as you would never have the guts to say this crap in real life. Just keep on posting your nonsensical opinions on the internet where no one of circumstance will see if thats what validates your self worth and helps you sleep better at night. Just know in the back of your mind that 99% of the rational public finds it humorous.

naps
08-18-2013, 05:23 PM
All this proves is that the majority of posters on this forum are Kobe haters and luckily thats not the norm. 95% of the experts all would laugh at you if you tried to convince them that Kobe was never the clear cut best player in the NBA. You may be able to get away with this non sense on line, but in the real world I'll bet you would never make this argument because saying this stuff out loud to anyone of an sort of intelligence would just be a disaster and quite the embarrassing little incident I would imagine.

You quoted me but didn't even touch what I said. Again I say there are proofs that Shaq and Riley said Wade was the best. So now they are not experts because they didn't say it was Kobe?

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:23 PM
NO. kobe fans. True Lakers are people like Shep, Bruno etc. These are all kobephiles who, due to their insecurities, create threads, set their criteria of youtube clips but nothing else, expect people to agree with them, and bash people n troll their own threads if people say otherwise.

I tried to start an intelligent discussion and all I got was vomited on by the usual haters. You are all the trolls... Not I.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:27 PM
You quoted me but didn't even touch what I said. Again I say there are proofs that Shaq and Riley said Wade was the best. So now they are not experts because they didn't say it was Kobe?

Where are these "proofs" you speak of?

naps
08-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Where are these "proofs" you speak of?

SportsFanatic provided you the clip. Go click on it. Apparently you trolled but quoting him and didn't watch the clip?

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Wow... Mad props bro. You've figured it all out. You're a genius.

Anyone who doesn't lick Lebron's *** isn't worthy of being in your higher discussion club. Lol Just look how ridiculous that sounds.

Funny thing is I show this site to all of my friends and they all just crack up to the extent people hate on Kobe. It really is a joke. News flash... You are all in the silent minority as you would never have the guts to say this crap in real life. Just keep on posting your nonsensical opinions on the internet where no one of circumstance will see if thats what validates your self worth and helps you sleep better at night. Just know in the back of your mind that 99% of the rational public finds it humorous.

You aren't engaging in higher level discussion. You haven't made an arguments. You posted youtube clips. If you wanted to make a case for Kobe that's fine. It's not completely unreasonable and he was top five or top three for a while so an argument can be made, but when you are posting youtube clips and ignoring all contradicting evidence for your fallacy than you aren't worth having a conversation with.

I encourage everyone to not reply to amoser. He's likely a teenager.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Laker fans are the worst.

In my opinion, Lebron fans are the worst.

naps
08-18-2013, 05:30 PM
I tried to start an intelligent discussion and all I got was vomited on by the usual haters. You are all the trolls... Not I.

What intelligent discussion? You're dead set on youtube clips and nothing else. People are actually trying to analyze but just because their research doesn't satisfy you and your agenda, now they are all trolls?

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 05:30 PM
In my opinion, Lebron fans are the worst.

Your opinion doesn't matter.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:32 PM
You aren't engaging in higher level discussion. You haven't made an arguments. You posted youtube clips. If you wanted to make a case for Kobe that's fine. It's not completely unreasonable and he was top five or top three for a while so an argument can be made, but when you are posting youtube clips and ignoring all contradicting evidence for your fallacy than you aren't worth having a conversation with.

I encourage everyone to not reply to amoser. He's likely a teenager.

Oh no... Lol Now that you are losing the argument you are resorting to ad hominem attacks. This is truly getting sad.

If I truly was a teenager as you suggest... That would be an insult aimed you mostly as you are the one getting outwitted by someone who you presume to be an adolescent.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:35 PM
Your opinion doesn't matter.

LMAO!!!

Like yours does??? This is the single most ironic post in the entire thread. I provided video evidence of a flurry of credible expert testimony which no one on here can refute in the sense that they cannot provide any credible expert testimony in contradiction and all of the sudden you want to say that it's my opinion that doesn't count??? Wow.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 05:36 PM
In my opinion, Lebron fans are the worst.

make a youtube video of yourself saying that, then you can claim it as fact.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:37 PM
What intelligent discussion? You're dead set on youtube clips and nothing else. People are actually trying to analyze but just because their research doesn't satisfy you and your agenda, now they are all trolls?

Where is this analysis you speak of?

Anyone who responded to me intelligently I returned the same courtesy. Now to the haters attacking me personally... Thats a whole other story.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 05:38 PM
make a youtube video of yourself saying that, then you can claim it as fact.

Hey Naps... Is this the sort of intelligent responses and analysis you were referring to?

naps
08-18-2013, 05:43 PM
Where is this analysis you speak of?

Anyone who responded to me intelligently I returned the same courtesy. Now to the haters attacking me personally... Thats a whole other story.

Ok when someone used your own criteria did you return the same courtesy? Instead you trolled him proving the conspiracy clip. In the clip SportsFanatic provided Shaq said Wade is the best in the world. But you didn't like it. How can people create discuss if you get mad when they say something that makes you upset so much?


EDIT: Oh also, what's there to discuss? You think people's opinion are FACTs. So what do you know about discussion? Jordan thought Adam Morrison was good? What does that prove? Why don't you provide an elaborate research on why you think Kobe is the best for any given year? You're so opposed to it because you know you can't make any.

naps
08-18-2013, 05:48 PM
Hey Naps... Is this the sort of intelligent responses and analysis you were referring to?


No but this was (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?833944-How-Many-Years-%28If-Any%29-Would-You-Say-That-Kobe-Was-The-Clear-Cut-Best-In-The-NBA&p=26909247#post26909247). THIS (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?833944-How-Many-Years-%28If-Any%29-Would-You-Say-That-Kobe-Was-The-Clear-Cut-Best-In-The-NBA&p=26909383#post26909383) is how you responded to that.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 06:06 PM
Hey Naps... Is this the sort of intelligent responses and analysis you were referring to?

my response is a reflection of your very own logic....i know not too intelligent right?

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 06:08 PM
I remember when amoser said Hollinger wasn't an expert and his opinion Kobe doesn't matter. I wonder what he thinks now that he has taken over a team, got them to the western conference finals, and improved their winning percentage by five points.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CavaliersForecast0809

"Sorry, Kobe fans, but LeBron James is the best player in the league, and it isn't even close. And in addition to being a force of nature who is a nightly triple-double threat, James has the added advantage of being virtually indestructible.

This is Cleveland's one huge advantage. They're basically a 24-58 team, except that they have the greatest player in the world, and in a seven-game series that advantage becomes hugely magnified because they can play him virtually every minute of every important game. "


A GM said that in 2008.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 06:27 PM
Ok when someone used your own criteria did you return the same courtesy?

Go look at the first few pages of this thread where I was responding to people with a level of respect that they didn't show me in return. I even stated in the 2nd or 3rd post that I didn't want this to become a bait/troll/flame war. I always try to give respect to those who show it to me. I even give it to those who don't show me much to be the bigger man. Even I have my breaking point and there is only so much disrespect/stupidity/ignorance I will tolerate.


Instead you trolled him proving the conspiracy clip.

It wasn't a conspiracy. He showed a video portraying Wade to be a hero after game 6 of the 2006 finals and I showed one of him getting a phantom foul call at the end of game five which iced the victory for the Heat. There is no conspiracy there. Just video proof that no actual foul took place and the refs gave Wade a last second call to decide the game regardless of there being a foul or not. 99% of the time the refs will not give a last second call to any player when a game is on the line (especially a finals game) because it's bad form to decide a game at the free throw line. Yet they did it for Wade and only Wade. Ginobli got fouled at the end of OT in game 6 this last finals, only he did not get the same treatment as Wade... Had he, the Spurs would be champs and all you Lebron/Heat homers would be the ones crying conspiracy even though he actually did get fouled unlike Wade.

Sports fanatic also dissed my youtube clips, so I don't know why he would provide one of his own anyways as evidence unless he was a giant hypocrite.


In the clip SportsFanatic provided Shaq said Wade is the best in the world. But you didn't like it. How can people create discuss if you get mad when they say something that makes you upset so much?

Riley said in 2008 that Kobe was the best player in the NBA and that he was the closest thing to Jordan. He also said that Wade and Lebron hoped to be on that level one day. Shaq has said on many occasion that Kobe was the best in the NBA. If you had actually watched the video's I provided you would know that.


EDIT: Oh also, what's there to discuss? You think people's opinion are FACTs.

I never said that. Your putting words in my mouth. I only said that I was submitting them as evidence. Though at the end of the day... perception is the ultimate judge and jury and the greatest experts in the NBA saying Kobe was the best in pretty damn compelling IMO.


So what do you know about discussion?

All I know is that I tried to have one before I got blasted by all the usual suspects.


Jordan thought Adam Morrison was good?

He was good at one point. How was Jordan supposed to know he would get injured and would never be the same again.


What does that prove?

Jordan is the undisputed GOAT... Surely his opinion matters. So he wasn't good at projecting greatness as a few of his draft picks have been questionable over the years. Regardless, that has nothing to do with judging greatness.


Why don't you provide an elaborate research on why you think Kobe is the best for any given year? You're so opposed to it because you know you can't make any.

Why should I. I have already provided my argument. It's on the posters to provide me a decent counter argument... I will respond accordingly as I always do.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 06:31 PM
I remember when amoser said Hollinger wasn't an expert and his opinion Kobe doesn't matter. I wonder what he thinks now that he has taken over a team, got them to the western conference finals, and improved their winning percentage by five points.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CavaliersForecast0809

"Sorry, Kobe fans, but LeBron James is the best player in the league, and it isn't even close. And in addition to being a force of nature who is a nightly triple-double threat, James has the added advantage of being virtually indestructible.

This is Cleveland's one huge advantage. They're basically a 24-58 team, except that they have the greatest player in the world, and in a seven-game series that advantage becomes hugely magnified because they can play him virtually every minute of every important game. "


A GM said that in 2008.

Hollinger is a statistician. Not a true basketball expert in the sense of having experienced the nuances of the game first hand either through playing, managing, or coaching. Though he is very knowledgeable I will admit. But like all human beings he is capable of bias so I still take what he has to say with a grain of salt unlike others on here who believe everything he says is gospel.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 06:31 PM
my response is a reflection of your very own logic....i know not too intelligent right?

Way to own up dude.

3RDASYSTEM
08-18-2013, 07:05 PM
Where is this analysis you speak of?

Anyone who responded to me intelligently I returned the same courtesy. Now to the haters attacking me personally... Thats a whole other story.

You never answer me, you and that illusioner character called me out saying im this bs hater when I said nothing but facts, backupguard, fact

drafted by la via DIVAC-hornets, fact, wow a top 10 center alltime traded for top 10 player alltime, what a la trade rape

had legit interest from NETS on draft night, fact or no?

he is a scorer nothing more nothing less, fact or no?

a wannabe JORDAN,fact or no? I wish I could find those J BARRY quotes of him saying those exact words

why don't you post those quotes of him speaking on himself being nothing but a shooter-scorer?

post those quotes of SHAQ calling him a ballhog and PHIL labeling him uncoachable

this bean guy is the only guy in history to quit on his team in the playoffs, play a robin sidekick role for 3 and then played super robin to PAU's robin and won 2 more and now will not magically pass the torch to nobody because he has developed into this alpha male role that alluded him his first 8yrs, congrats to you and illusioner666666666666666666666666666666666

naps
08-18-2013, 07:05 PM
It wasn't a conspiracy. He showed a video portraying Wade to be a hero after game 6 of the 2006 finals and I showed one of him getting a phantom foul call at the end of game five which iced the victory for the Heat. There is no conspiracy there. Just video proof that no actual foul took place and the refs gave Wade a last second call to decide the game regardless of there being a foul or not. 99% of the time the refs will not give a last second call to any player when a game is on the line (especially a finals game) because it's bad form to decide a game at the free throw line. Yet they did it for Wade and only Wade. Ginobli got fouled at the end of OT in game 6 this last finals, only he did not get the same treatment as Wade... Had he, the Spurs would be champs and all you Lebron/Heat homers would be the ones crying conspiracy even though he actually did get fouled unlike Wade.


WTF foul calls have anything to do with your "experts" claiming Wade as the best in the world? Shaq thinks nothing matters and said Wade was the best in the world. How do you dispute that? Focus on what expert Shaq said.


Sports fanatic also dissed my youtube clips, so I don't know why he would provide one of his own anyways as evidence unless he was a giant hypocrite.

He said for the heck. Do you understand what that means? He was showing you how pointless your "experts" opinions are.



Riley said in 2008 that Kobe was the best player in the NBA and that he was the closest thing to Jordan. He also said that Wade and Lebron hoped to be on that level one day. Shaq has said on many occasion that Kobe was the best in the NBA. If you had actually watched the video's I provided you would know that.

No Riley didn't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak) say Kobe was the best player at that time. He mentioned Kobe's name among the all-time greats and said that's where Wade, LeBron, and Melo one day wanted to be. Riley actually said THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq6Sh7YaZ8o) about who he thought the best player in the world was at that time. See that's exactly what SportsFanatic was trying to show you.



I never said that. Your putting words in my mouth. I only said that I was submitting them as evidence. Though at the end of the day... perception is the ultimate judge and jury and the greatest experts in the NBA saying Kobe was the best in pretty damn compelling IMO.

Just as compelling as Riley and Shaq claiming Wade as the best player in the world?



All I know is that I tried to have one before I got blasted by all the usual suspects.


What usual suspects? The ones that don't agree with you, rather ask you to write up and backup your words?



He was good at one point. How was Jordan supposed to know he would get injured and would never be the same again.


Kwame Brown?


Jordan is the undisputed GOAT... Surely his opinion matters. So he wasn't good at projecting greatness as a few of his draft picks have been questionable over the years. Regardless, that has nothing to do with judging greatness.

That has nothing to do with judging greatness? Says who?


Why should I. I have already provided my argument. It's on the posters to provide me a decent counter argument... I will respond accordingly as I always do.


No you didn't provide any argument. You just posted youtube clips. That's what SportsFanatic did. Why don't you provide him a decent counter argument? Anybody that has a computer can do that. What makes you different than an "anybody"? How about an actual analysis based on statistics, success, performance, accolades, awards, etc??

3RDASYSTEM
08-18-2013, 07:15 PM
Hollinger is a statistician. Not a true basketball expert in the sense of having experienced the nuances of the game first hand either through playing, managing, or coaching. Though he is very knowledgeable I will admit. But like all human beings he is capable of bias so I still take what he has to say with a grain of salt unlike others on here who believe everything he says is gospel.

im not a stat master and I find it hard to argue a backup player vs a franchise player, go back and look for yourself, it even reflects itself right now during they careers today

he went to 3 straight FINALS with PAU and told him to pull up his big boy pants, and I saw someone on here post that PAU led them in win shares during that 3peat FINALS streak, wow

the longevity thing didn't work with FAVRE nor with MANNING nor with JETER nor with ALCINDOR, they were who they were, FAVRE was always a gun slinger, JETER(bean) was always good but NYC(la) over rated, and go ask WILT about that young lion ALCINDOR who came and did what he did his entire 20yr career, as he aged he was the best at his age and more because of what he once was, top 5 all time best ever, rookie year

that's pretty much sums it up in a nutshell

for the record nobody is even close to an expert when it comes to speaking and analyzing players and rankings and etc.

everybody on that side of HOLLINGER at best have a 20pct right to 80pct wrong and im being very very very generous

3RDASYSTEM
08-18-2013, 07:25 PM
Go look at the first few pages of this thread where I was responding to people with a level of respect that they didn't show me in return. I even stated in the 2nd or 3rd post that I didn't want this to become a bait/troll/flame war. I always try to give respect to those who show it to me. I even give it to those who don't show me much to be the bigger man. Even I have my breaking point and there is only so much disrespect/stupidity/ignorance I will tolerate.



It wasn't a conspiracy. He showed a video portraying Wade to be a hero after game 6 of the 2006 finals and I showed one of him getting a phantom foul call at the end of game five which iced the victory for the Heat. There is no conspiracy there. Just video proof that no actual foul took place and the refs gave Wade a last second call to decide the game regardless of there being a foul or not. 99% of the time the refs will not give a last second call to any player when a game is on the line (especially a finals game) because it's bad form to decide a game at the free throw line. Yet they did it for Wade and only Wade. Ginobli got fouled at the end of OT in game 6 this last finals, only he did not get the same treatment as Wade... Had he, the Spurs would be champs and all you Lebron/Heat homers would be the ones crying conspiracy even though he actually did get fouled unlike Wade.

Sports fanatic also dissed my youtube clips, so I don't know why he would provide one of his own anyways as evidence unless he was a giant hypocrite.



Riley said in 2008 that Kobe was the best player in the NBA and that he was the closest thing to Jordan. He also said that Wade and Lebron hoped to be on that level one day. Shaq has said on many occasion that Kobe was the best in the NBA. If you had actually watched the video's I provided you would know that.



I never said that. Your putting words in my mouth. I only said that I was submitting them as evidence. Though at the end of the day... perception is the ultimate judge and jury and the greatest experts in the NBA saying Kobe was the best in pretty damn compelling IMO.



All I know is that I tried to have one before I got blasted by all the usual suspects.



He was good at one point. How was Jordan supposed to know he would get injured and would never be the same again.



Jordan is the undisputed GOAT... Surely his opinion matters. So he wasn't good at projecting greatness as a few of his draft picks have been questionable over the years. Regardless, that has nothing to do with judging greatness.



Why should I. I have already provided my argument. It's on the posters to provide me a decent counter argument... I will respond accordingly as I always do.

so I guess based on your love for la and bean you have never watched the youtube or actual live games where la had gotten 'phantom calls'? in a lot of instances

I've never seen such a weak *** personal agenda in my life in sports, anywhere

bean is a glorified version of GINOBILI or VINNY MICRO, a fulltime starter version at that

recall how well MANU plays when starting vs being a 6th man, then picture bean in san Antonio and MANU in la making all those MANU eruo step plays and winning titles with SHAQ/PAU, so what is bean a slightly better version than those 2 players? especially when it comes to strictly scoring and playmaking, MANU and VINNY can do that with the best of'em right? I feel so if given starter minutes since its proven on high level

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 07:58 PM
Hollinger is a statistician. Not a true basketball expert in the sense of having experienced the nuances of the game first hand either through playing, managing, or coaching. Though he is very knowledgeable I will admit. But like all human beings he is capable of bias so I still take what he has to say with a grain of salt unlike others on here who believe everything he says is gospel.

No one believes everything he says is gospel. And if your argument he isn't a true basketball expert than you are cherry picking for your fallacious argument. He's a ****ing GM.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 08:34 PM
so I guess based on your love for la and bean you have never watched the youtube or actual live games where la had gotten 'phantom calls'? in a lot of instances

I've never seen such a weak *** personal agenda in my life in sports, anywhere

bean is a glorified version of GINOBILI or VINNY MICRO, a fulltime starter version at that

recall how well MANU plays when starting vs being a 6th man, then picture bean in san Antonio and MANU in la making all those MANU eruo step plays and winning titles with SHAQ/PAU, so what is bean a slightly better version than those 2 players? especially when it comes to strictly scoring and playmaking, MANU and VINNY can do that with the best of'em right? I feel so if given starter minutes since its proven on high level

Oh MY the IRONY. LoL

amos1er
08-18-2013, 08:40 PM
No one believes everything he says is gospel. And if your argument he isn't a true basketball expert than you are cherry picking for your fallacious argument. He's a ****ing GM.

With one season of experience under his belt. :rolleyes:

amos1er
08-18-2013, 08:46 PM
im not a stat master and I find it hard to argue a backup player vs a franchise player, go back and look for yourself, it even reflects itself right now during they careers today

he went to 3 straight FINALS with PAU and told him to pull up his big boy pants, and I saw someone on here post that PAU led them in win shares during that 3peat FINALS streak, wow

the longevity thing didn't work with FAVRE nor with MANNING nor with JETER nor with ALCINDOR, they were who they were, FAVRE was always a gun slinger, JETER(bean) was always good but NYC(la) over rated, and go ask WILT about that young lion ALCINDOR who came and did what he did his entire 20yr career, as he aged he was the best at his age and more because of what he once was, top 5 all time best ever, rookie year

that's pretty much sums it up in a nutshell

for the record nobody is even close to an expert when it comes to speaking and analyzing players and rankings and etc.

everybody on that side of HOLLINGER at best have a 20pct right to 80pct wrong and im being very very very generous

I'm still confused at what starting as a backup guard has to do with your entire basketball legacy. This to me is one of the most illogical things I have ever heard.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 08:49 PM
With one season of experience under his belt. :rolleyes:

Who instantly improved the team and saved them money. You don't get into the NBA with one year of experience. He has had years of experience of deep, statistical analysis of basketball with 10,000 of game footage watched. Becoming a GM only confirmed his abilities to evaluate.


We knew how good he was at predicting. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-Decline-Team-081031

This article is also from 2008 and he was right about almost every players future.

Why should I trust your opinion over Hollinger, right? He's an NBA expert. He obviously knows Kobe was never the clear cut best player.

amos1er
08-18-2013, 08:57 PM
I remember when amoser said Hollinger wasn't an expert and his opinion Kobe doesn't matter. I wonder what he thinks now that he has taken over a team, got them to the western conference finals, and improved their winning percentage by five points.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CavaliersForecast0809

"Sorry, Kobe fans, but LeBron James is the best player in the league, and it isn't even close. And in addition to being a force of nature who is a nightly triple-double threat, James has the added advantage of being virtually indestructible.

This is Cleveland's one huge advantage. They're basically a 24-58 team, except that they have the greatest player in the world, and in a seven-game series that advantage becomes hugely magnified because they can play him virtually every minute of every important game. "


A GM said that in 2008.

Ya, and that had nothing to do with Westbrook being injured or anything. :rolleyes:

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 09:22 PM
Ya, and that had nothing to do with Westbrook being injured or anything. :rolleyes:

They won in five games. It's extremely likely they win that series anyways.

Guppyfighter
08-18-2013, 09:22 PM
NBA expert > You

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 09:25 PM
they're only experts if they say what amoser wants to hear.

SportsFanatic10
08-18-2013, 09:28 PM
and then their word/opinion all of a sudden becomes fact lol.

LionsFan..LOL
08-18-2013, 09:36 PM
This has turned into nothing but baiting and trolling back and forth. Closed.