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Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


MHC TOP 18 PF COMPARISON (Advanced Statistics)



Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48

L. Aldridge 2012-13 27 74 2790 20.4 .530 .485 7.2 20.9 14.0 13.0 1.2 2.5 8.9 26.5 108 107 4.8 2.3 7.2 .124
Pau Gasol 2012-13 32 49 1655 16.7 .512 .473 7.6 20.1 14.0 19.9 0.7 2.7 13.7 20.5 107 106 2.0 1.7 3.7 .107
Blake Griffin 2012-13 23 80 2598 22.4 .572 .541 8.7 21.5 15.2 19.9 2.0 1.6 12.8 25.4 114 102 6.8 3.9 10.6 .196
Kevin Love 2012-13 24 18 618 17.9 .458 .386 11.5 35.9 23.3 11.8 1.1 1.1 9.8 28.9 99 102 0.1 0.9 1.1 .084
Dirk Nowitzki 2012-13 34 53 1661 19.8 .564 .516 2.5 21.5 12.2 13.5 1.2 1.7 7.9 24.2 111 106 3.3 1.8 5.0 .145
Kevin Garnett 2012-13 36 68 2022 19.2 .535 .498 4.5 25.8 15.5 14.4 2.0 2.4 10.5 24.5 104 99 1.8 3.8 5.6 .133
Serge Ibaka 2012-13 23 80 2486 19.4 .612 .586 11.1 17.0 14.2 2.8 0.6 7.4 12.7 18.1 117 101 5.3 4.1 9.4 .181
David Lee 2012-13 29 79 2907 19.2 .561 .519 8.5 24.5 16.8 16.5 1.2 0.6 13.7 23.2 110 104 5.4 3.7 9.1 .150
Zach Randolph 2012-13 31 76 2607 17.9 .506 .461 13.8 25.1 19.3 7.3 1.3 1.0 11.5 23.1 106 99 3.2 4.7 7.9 .145
Josh Smith 2012-13 27 76 2683 17.7 .501 .491 5.8 21.3 13.6 20.9 1.8 3.9 14.6 26.7 97 101 -0.3 4.5 4.2 .075
David West 2012-13 32 73 2435 20.1 .545 .500 6.8 18.8 12.9 16.8 1.6 2.1 12.0 24.4 110 99 4.4 4.7 9.1 .179
Ryan Anderson 2012-13 24 81 2503 18.1 .548 .519 8.9 15.9 12.4 6.9 0.9 1.0 7.5 24.0 114 112 5.7 0.8 6.5 .125
Carlos Boozer 2012-13 31 79 2546 17.1 .510 .477 7.8 27.2 17.4 13.4 1.4 0.8 12.3 25.8 101 100 1.4 4.3 5.7 .108
Anthony Davis 2012-13 19 64 1846 21.7 .559 .516 10.5 23.5 16.8 6.1 2.2 5.1 10.3 21.8 113 104 3.7 2.4 6.1 .159
Kenneth Faried 2012-13 23 80 2248 18.5 .573 .552 13.2 23.2 18.3 5.1 1.8 2.9 12.3 17.7 116 102 4.5 3.4 7.8 .167
Paul Millsap 2012-13 27 78 2375 19.8 .550 .498 8.6 18.8 13.7 14.5 2.3 2.7 11.8 22.4 112 104 4.8 2.9 7.6 .154
Tiago Splitter 2012-13 28 81 1997 18.7 .609 .560 8.8 20.3 14.9 10.0 1.6 2.3 12.7 18.2 118 100 4.7 3.5 8.2 .197
A. Stoudemire 2012-13 30 29 682 22.1 .637 .577 10.0 15.1 12.4 3.6 0.8 2.7 13.4 25.7 118 108 2.1 0.6 2.7 .191





2013 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

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2)
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4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) LaMarcus Aldridge
4) Chris Bosh
5) Pau Gasol
6) Blake Griffin
7) Josh Smith
8) Zach Randolph
9) Amare Stoudemire
10) Paul Millsap

2011 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2) Amare Stoudemire
3) Pau Gasol
4) Zach Randolph
5) Chris Bosh
6) LaMarcus Aldridge
7) Kevin Love
8) Blake Griffin
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Josh Smith

2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 12:33 PM
As you see, I have added an advanced statistics comparison for 18 players that I feel deserve to be in conversation in this thread. More names will be added as we go along per usual but this is where we will begin.

Just for reference, Chris Bosh will be moved to the Center poll this year and Kevin Garnett has returned to the PF poll after making appearance last season on on the Center position poll.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 12:35 PM
This year, things are wide open and a lot of different guys have a case for this number 1 spot.

sunsfan88
08-14-2013, 12:36 PM
LaMarcus Alridge. Pretty easy for me.

Love is close but he misses so many damn games due to injury that you have to take durability to be a factor. Plus I like "true PFs" more than the stretch, 3pt shooting types.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 12:41 PM
LaMarcus Alridge. Pretty easy for me.

Love is close but he misses so many damn games due to injury that you have to take durability to be a factor. Plus I like "true PFs" more than the stretch, 3pt shooting types.

Numbers are very tight between all the top guys and none of the players had a great offensive year other than Griffin. Not saying Griffin is the call here but his offensive performance can't be ignored and of course neither can his defensive inabilities either. LA certainly has a case here but he really did not elevate his game to warrant being put back into the top spot. I am tempted to give the spot back to Love who despite being injured last year, is probably still in my mind the best PF in the game. Dirk also deserves mention in the conversation here as well.

Ebbs
08-14-2013, 12:43 PM
This is interesting but how many of these guys do you want to lean on the be a #1 option? There's 4.

Dirk and Love were both hurt. Aldridge has never been as good as people believe he is.

Blake, Milsap, and Smoove all have their faults.

I think that honestly if you are going into next season and you want a player who can lead the team and be counted on as an efficient option you Dirk.

If you want the best player available assuming all are healthy you take Love.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 12:44 PM
This is interesting but how many of these guys do you want to lean on the be a #1 option? There's 4.

Dirk and Love were both hurt. Aldridge has never been as good as people believe he is.

Blake, Milsap, and Smoove all have their faults.

I think that honestly if you are going into next season and you want a player who can lead the team and be counted on as an efficient option you Dirk.

If you want the best player available assuming all are healthy you take Love.

Good plug for your NBA mock off-season team. :D

Ebbs
08-14-2013, 12:47 PM
Good plug for your NBA mock off-season team. :D

It's not in true though.

Also Dirk is my favorite player ever.

Also I've never been a massive fan of Love or Aldridge so it's an easy choice for me.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2013, 12:48 PM
I always vote for who I think will be the best at the position for the upcoming season, so I voted Love.

If I were voting on who was the best last year, obviously my vote changes drastically, since Love was non-existent.

Now stay healthy fatty, so we can win some games

WoodsyRaps
08-14-2013, 01:00 PM
This is a tough one. Going to be a good poll 1-10 i think. For some reason I want to select Dirk. Another part of me cant decide between Love, LA and Griffin. I do think that in 2 years, it will be Anthony Davis though. His jumper looks to be really improving and everything is great.

WoodsyRaps
08-14-2013, 01:01 PM
With that being said, I'm gonna go with Blake Griffin, Kevin Love and him are 1a and 1b for me. toss-up

SteBO
08-14-2013, 01:01 PM
I went Love here, going Dirk for #2.

To this day, I don't get the fascination with LMA. I'll take Dirk, Blake and Bosh over him anyday and that includes last year.

sunsfan88
08-14-2013, 01:02 PM
I always vote for who I think will be the best at the position for the upcoming season, so I voted Love.

If I were voting on who was the best last year, obviously my vote changes drastically, since Love was non-existent.

Now stay healthy fatty, so we can win some games
This is based on last season. That's why OP assigns players with the positions they played last year. For ex, Paul George at SF even though he is going to play at SG this coming season.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 01:05 PM
The PFs should be much tougher than the other positions thus far. Maybe besides PG.

Love was the best when he played, and when healthy I do think he's the best. So I'll vote for him. I'm sure people who blame him for not winning in Minny will disagree, but I can't pin that on him. His game isn't detrimental to winning...he just hasn't been on good teams.


And I'm gonna go on a Paul Millsap crusade sometime soon, so brace yourselves.

Ebbs
08-14-2013, 01:08 PM
I went Love here, going Dirk for #2.

To this day, I don't get the fascination with LMA. I'll take Dirk, Blake and Bosh over him anyday and that includes last year.

Agree 100%. I've never understood the PSD crush on LMA. Bosh on the raptors was a better player by a significant margin and he never got that kind of love.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 01:09 PM
I am going to argue for Anthony Davis at 9 or 10 likely. He had a terrific rookie season and he could very well find himself in the top 6 or 7 this time next summer.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 01:12 PM
Agree 100%. I've never understood the PSD crush on LMA. Bosh on the raptors was a better player by a significant margin and he never got that kind of love.

Agreed. Bosh was not well liked by anyone outside of Toronto it seemed. He was easily a much better player than LMA when Bosh was the guy on the Raps. Love affair with LMA needs to stop.

Minimal
08-14-2013, 01:15 PM
How the F the guy who shot 35% from the field last season leads this poll almost unanimously?
I chose between Blake (hate him) and Lee, they were both decent, but Blake kinda went downhill and Lee went up in my eyes , so I chose Lee.

Really weak year for power forwards.

b@llhog24
08-14-2013, 01:18 PM
Gawd the PF position was messed up this year.

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 01:19 PM
How the F the guy who shot 35% from the field last season leads this poll almost unanimously?
I chose between Blake (hate him) and Lee, they were both decent, but Blake kinda went downhill and Lee went up in my eyes , so I chose Lee.

Really weak year for power forwards.

Lee was the second option on a very good Warriors team. Lee remains a below average defender though he has improved his defense since leaving New York. I don't believe either Blake or Lee can carry a team like Love has the ability to. Yes he still needs to prove it but Love was hurt last year and going into this coming season, he is the best player easily of the bunch when healthy.

b@llhog24
08-14-2013, 01:20 PM
Lma

Bruno
08-14-2013, 01:33 PM
wow, tough one here. everything is weird here.

only Blake, David Lee and Ibaka (defensive) showed up on any all-nba teams last season.

Blake Griffin, Aldridge, David Lee, Randolph and KG were all-stars.

...yet Dirk and Love might end up with the top two spots anyways. I'm not complaining, that's just interesting.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 01:45 PM
How the F the guy who shot 35% from the field last season leads this poll almost unanimously?
I chose between Blake (hate him) and Lee, they were both decent, but Blake kinda went downhill and Lee went up in my eyes , so I chose Lee.

Really weak year for power forwards.

Lee is the worst defender of all the guys listed. And he really isn't all that wonderful offenisvely.

As for Love, the poll tells us to vote for "the best PF in the NBA". 18 games of 35% shooting last season doesn't negate what we KNOW Kevin Love is. I don't care how he did in 18 games last season, he has shown what caliber of player he truly is more clearly in years prior, so that's why I voted for him. He is the best PF in the NBA, regardless of how bad he shot last season.

He's 6-10, he's the best rebounder in the game and he's shot 47%/42%/85% a few years back. That's who I think he really is...not a guy who struggled between injuries last season. And he plays good-enough defense, especially compared to Dirk, Blake, Lee, Randolph, Aldridge etc. None of them are very good defensively at all.

Bruno
08-14-2013, 01:51 PM
I really wanted to vote for anthony davis but couldn't bring myself to do it. giving the best rebounder in the league the benefit of the doubt here. that's mainly because there isn't a single PF out there who was dominant enough last season to merit a vote over what we know Kevin Love is. especially with Blake turning into pudding in the post-season.

also, pau gasol should have a monster year.

Guppyfighter
08-14-2013, 01:55 PM
Lee is the worst defender of all the guys listed. And he really isn't all that wonderful offenisvely.

As for Love, the poll tells us to vote for "the best PF in the NBA". 18 games of 35% shooting last season doesn't negate what we KNOW Kevin Love is. I don't care how he did in 18 games last season, he has shown what caliber of player he truly is more clearly in years prior, so that's why I voted for him. He is the best PF in the NBA, regardless of how bad he shot last season.

He's 6-10, he's the best rebounder in the game and he's shot 47%/42%/85% a few years back. That's who I think he really is...not a guy who struggled between injuries last season. And he plays good-enough defense, especially compared to Dirk, Blake, Lee, Randolph, Aldridge etc. None of them are very good defensively at all.

Not voting Lee number one, but he is phenomenal on offense and you can't take that away. High usage that was extremely efficient with great passing.

I can't check the stats rright now, but Dubs were 5 or 7 points better with him on offense, and that's with a hyper efficient Landy behind him.

NYKnickFanatic
08-14-2013, 01:57 PM
LaMarcus Alridge. Pretty easy for me.

Love is close but he misses so many damn games due to injury that you have to take durability to be a factor. Plus I like "true PFs" more than the stretch, 3pt shooting types.

This is why I voted LMA.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 02:11 PM
Not voting Lee number one, but he is phenomenal on offense and you can't take that away. High usage that was extremely efficient with great passing.

I can't check the stats rright now, but Dubs were 5 or 7 points better with him on offense, and that's with a hyper efficient Landy behind him.

He's no better than his peers offensively...those peers being the guys we might be voting for here. I shouldn't have said "isn't wonderful offensively", but if we're comparing him to the best of the best here, well, it's nothing that stands out.

You're right about his raw on/off numbers. That team offense was +7.5 points better with him on than off last year per 100 possessions. But if you start to adjust those numbers (taking into account his terrible backup, among others) and venture into the land of RAPM it evens out a bit.

offense per 100 RAPM:

Love: +3.2
Griffin: +3.1
Dirk: +2.5
Ilyasova: +2.4
Millsap: +2.0
Aldridge: +1.7
West: +1.1
Pau: +0.8
Randolph: +0.4
Lee: +0.3
Smoove: 0
Ibaka: -0.8
Garnett: -1.9


Even non-adjusted (and RAPM truly is the stat to be looking at for this stuff...it takes basic +/- and solidifies it a ton) Aldridge was +6.2, Blake +9.6 and so on.

sunsfan88
08-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Lee is the worst defender of all the guys listed. And he really isn't all that wonderful offenisvely.

As for Love, the poll tells us to vote for "the best PF in the NBA". 18 games of 35% shooting last season doesn't negate what we KNOW Kevin Love is. I don't care how he did in 18 games last season, he has shown what caliber of player he truly is more clearly in years prior, so that's why I voted for him. He is the best PF in the NBA, regardless of how bad he shot last season.

He's 6-10, he's the best rebounder in the game and he's shot 47%/42%/85% a few years back. That's who I think he really is...not a guy who struggled between injuries last season. And he plays good-enough defense, especially compared to Dirk, Blake, Lee, Randolph, Aldridge etc. None of them are very good defensively at all.
Are you saying that Love is better defensively than Aldridge?

And you do know that these threads are based on what they did last season right? It isn't about what these players did years ago. Otherwise, Kobe would have got #1 SG over Harden.

Bruno
08-14-2013, 02:36 PM
Are you saying that Love is better defensively than Aldridge?

And you do know that these threads are based on what they did last season right? It isn't about what these players did years ago. Otherwise, Kobe would have got #1 SG over Harden.

there is no 100% criteria, despite MHCs best efforts; people still vote the way they wana vote. i see 50% of the voters voting off last season, I see 50% voting based off projection. there is a lack of consistency in the voting because of this fact. I'm guilty of it myself with this Kevin Love vote (I had previously voted based off last seasons production in all other polls). My justification is that nobody was really that dominant out of these crop of players and hey, everybodys doin it; legitimacy of method has been compromised thus my hyper vigilance lost the wind in its sails. :shrug:

SteBO
08-14-2013, 02:39 PM
there is no 100% criteria, despite MHCs best efforts; people still vote the way they wana vote. i see 50% of the voters voting off last season, I see 50% voting based off projection. there is a lack of consistency in the voting because of this fact. I'm guilty of it myself with this Kevin Love vote (I had previously voted based off last seasons production in all other polls). My justification is that nobody was really that dominant out of these crop of players and hey- everybodys doin it :shrug:
It's somewhat based off last year, but you have keep perspective here too. Let's say KD has a better year statistically than LeBron next year, does that mean he's a better player than LeBron now? There's a balance.....and in this case, Love is better than the other options when healthy. That's how I vote, and I'm consistent with this.

b@llhog24
08-14-2013, 03:12 PM
there is no 100% criteria, despite MHCs best efforts; people still vote the way they wana vote. i see 50% of the voters voting off last season, I see 50% voting based off projection. there is a lack of consistency in the voting because of this fact. I'm guilty of it myself with this Kevin Love vote (I had previously voted based off last seasons production in all other polls). My justification is that nobody was really that dominant out of these crop of players and hey- everybodys doin it :shrug:
It's somewhat based off last year, but you have keep perspective here too. Let's say KD has a better year statistically than LeBron next year, does that mean he's a better player than LeBron now? There's a balance.....and in this case, Love is better than the other options when healthy. That's how I vote, and I'm consistent with this.

By that logic, Wade would be ranked below Kobe in 09.

SteBO
08-14-2013, 03:21 PM
By that logic, Wade would be ranked below Kobe in 09.
Disagree. I thought Wade surpassed Kobe as a player at the time, and have now given that up due to Wade's constant injuries and Kobe's graceful aging. Even now, Wade over Kobe is a debatable topic if he's healthy.

b@llhog24
08-14-2013, 03:30 PM
By that logic, Wade would be ranked below Kobe in 09.
Disagree. I thought Wade surpassed Kobe as a player at the time,

I know you do which is why I made the comparison. Just so we're clear I'm referring to the "what if KD has a better statistical year than Bron next year" portion. Wade was lackluster for a variety of reasons in 08, while Kobe was coming off of an MVP season. Wade played better the Kobe in 09 but he didn't play better the year before. So over a two year span Kobe would've had more collective worth than Wade. Now sub Wade's name for KD and Bron's name for Kobe's then you'd see how one would come to that conclusion.


and have now given that up due to Wade's constant injuries and Kobe's graceful aging. Even now, Wade over Kobe is a debatable topic if he's healthy.

See above.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 03:35 PM
I really wanted to vote for anthony davis but couldn't bring myself to do it. giving the best rebounder in the league the benefit of the doubt here. that's mainly because there isn't a single PF out there who was dominant enough last season to merit a vote over what we know Kevin Love is. especially with Blake turning into pudding in the post-season.

also, pau gasol should have a monster year.

But we've never seen Love in the post season.... so ????

ManRam
08-14-2013, 03:41 PM
And you do know that these threads are based on what they did last season right? It isn't about what these players did years ago. Otherwise, Kobe would have got #1 SG over Harden.

Where does it say that?

I don't interpret it as "Rate the top 10 PFs based on how they played last year". That would be dumb, and I don't see any criteria saying this.

The poll merely saying "Who is the #1 PF in the NBA". So, that's how I'm voting. Kevin Love, regardless of what happened last year, is the best power forward in the NBA :shrug:

I'm not voting strictly off of how they did last year. I'm not voting really with how I'm projecting them. I'm just voting for the best, which takes a LOT more into account than just one season's worth of play.

SteBO
08-14-2013, 03:46 PM
I know you do which is why I made the comparison. Just so we're clear I'm referring to the "what if KD has a better statistical year than Bron next year" portion. Wade was lackluster for a variety of reasons in 08, while Kobe was coming off of an MVP season. Wade played better the Kobe in 09 but he didn't play better the year before. So over a two year span Kobe would've had more collective worth than Wade. Now sub Wade's name for KD and Bron's name for Kobe's then you'd see how one would come to that conclusion.



See above.
Ah okay; I feel ya now. '09 Wade was indeed the best I've ever seen him, so it was easy for me to prop him as the top SG slightly ahead of Kobe (since I thought both guys were closer to neck & neck since '06). Obviously my LeBron-KD scenario was hypothetical, but I was just pointing out how one year doesn't necessarily change how the rankings should be (as you pointed out here with Kobe-Wade).

It's the same living-in-the-moment issue people had in '11 when Dirk won the championship over 'Bron and they tried to argue Dirk over him for THAT year. That's the type of absurdity that annoys me. At least with Kobe-Wade in '09 it was a debate.

sunsfan88
08-14-2013, 03:49 PM
Where does it say that?

I don't interpret it as "Rate the top 10 PFs based on how they played last year". That would be dumb, and I don't see any criteria saying this.

The poll merely saying "Who is the #1 PF in the NBA". So, that's how I'm voting. Kevin Love, regardless of what happened last year, is the best power forward in the NBA :shrug:

I'm not voting strictly off of how they did last year. I'm not voting really with how I'm projecting them. I'm just voting for the best, which takes a LOT more into account than just one season's worth of play.

Because Paul George is a SG but played SF last season and yet he was on the poll as a SF. If it was in general and not just based off one season, then it would be George as SG.

OP does this every season based on the season prior to it.

tredigs
08-14-2013, 03:52 PM
Dang, just checked it out and Love has only played in 287 of nearly 400 possible games. Coupling that with his terrible offense when he actually did get in there last season along with the fact that the Wolves still haven't won over 30 games with him on the roster (far from entirely blaming him) and I'm almost leaning to the surprisingly ultra-durable Blake Griffin here. Still, his issue is that he sucked in the playoffs (to his credit, def a bit banged up).

It's tough, there's really no #1 PF in the league coming into this season. Just a strong group of B level PF's right now.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 03:53 PM
Because Paul George is a SG but played SF last season and yet he was on the poll as a SF. If it was in general and not just based off one season, then it would be George as SG.

OP does this every season based on the season prior to it.

Well, if anything, him putting George as a SG for these polls suggests he's anticipating next year rather than focusing on what happened last year. Which would play into my method.

It seems like you want us to just rank how these guys did in 2012-13. Nowhere does it say to do that. It says just vote for the best...so that's what I'm doing. Last year plays heavily into that, but again, 18 games of bad shooting for Love doesn't mean he's any less of a player than he's shown he is.

ChiSox219
08-14-2013, 04:01 PM
I think Blake is the best choice here. I'm really interested to see how much better he can get with his rate of improvement thus far, and now that he has a real NBA level head coach watch out...

tredigs
08-14-2013, 04:09 PM
Well, if anything, him putting George as a SG for these polls suggests he's anticipating next year rather than focusing on what happened last year. Which would play into my method.

It seems like you want us to just rank how these guys did in 2012-13. Nowhere does it say to do that. It says just vote for the best...so that's what I'm doing. Last year plays heavily into that, but again, 18 games of bad shooting for Love doesn't mean he's any less of a player than he's shown he is.

It does highlight the worst of a disturbing injury trend in his career though. He missed an average of 15 games the prior 3 seasons as well. Probably no stat more importantly than durability when it comes down to it, so after this season I can't really turn my back on it anymore. Especially when he has effectively done nothing to change the teams losing ways in the 5 seasons post KG era; again, not placing this all on him, but the fact remains he has not carried them to anything even remotely close to a .500 season, let alone the playoffs.

I'm going Blake here too.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 04:17 PM
It does highlight the worst of a disturbing injury trend in his career though. He missed an average of 15 games the prior 3 seasons as well. Probably no stat more importantly than durability when it comes down to it, so after this season I can't really turn my back on it anymore. Especially when he has effectively done nothing to change the teams losing ways in the 5 seasons post KG era; again, not placing this all on him, but the fact remains he has not carried them to anything even remotely close to a .500 season, let alone the playoffs.

I'm going Blake here too.

Blake did miss an entire season. Not saying he's injury prone or anything, but it is what it is.


Durability does matter a ton. I maybe am overlooking it too much. But in the end, I think Kevin Love is the best player among these guys so I'm voting for him. Put them all on the same court and he'll shine the brightest. But obviously, the "put him on the court" part is the problem. And it probably is wise to ignore it as much as I am.


And my patience with the Wolves not winning will start wearing very thin if it doesn't happen this year. But I still feel like I have to cut him some slack for who he has played with. I mean, in 2012, Ridnour, Beasley and Barea were the 3rd, 4th and 5th options on that team. I can't demand playoffs from a team like that...


Even though it was a small sample size, the team was a .500 team with Love and a 22-42 team with out him. That COULD be a hefty impact after all.

dalton749
08-14-2013, 04:27 PM
isn't for the past year? the year which kevin love played 18 games and shot 35% from the field
how can we possibly put him number 1

tredigs
08-14-2013, 04:34 PM
Blake did miss an entire season. Not saying he's injury prone or anything, but it is what it is.


Durability does matter a ton. I maybe am overlooking it too much. But in the end, I think Kevin Love is the best player among these guys so I'm voting for him. Put them all on the same court and he'll shine the brightest. But obviously, the "put him on the court" part is the problem. And it probably is wise to ignore it as much as I am.


And my patience with the Wolves not winning will start wearing very thin if it doesn't happen this year. But I still feel like I have to cut him some slack for who he has played with. I mean, in 2012, Ridnour, Beasley and Barea were the 3rd, 4th and 5th options on that team. I can't demand playoffs from a team like that...


Even though it was a small sample size, the team was a .500 team with Love and a 22-42 team with out him. That COULD be a hefty impact after all.

No doubt, his impact is immense when full strength and playing. And I agree in a bubble he's the best, I just went Griffin (very slightly over a handful of others) because at some point you have to draw a line and this season was it for me. And agreed that you can't expect playoffs with those guys, but maybe 35 wins? I don't know, it's just time for me to see it from them - and this last year was it, but unfortunately for a multitude of reasons - starting with him, it didn't happen.

And I know Blake missed a year, but that was a long time ago before his NBA career had actually begun and he has absolutely proved to be a rock as far as staying on the court from that moment forward.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 04:45 PM
Gawd the PF position was messed up this year.
Agreed, we need a mulligen on last season. I was hoping last season would answer this question definitively but all I got are more questions.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 04:48 PM
He's 6-10, he's the best rebounder in the game and he's shot 47%/42%/85% a few years back. That's who I think he really is...not a guy who struggled between injuries last season. And he plays good-enough defense, especially compared to Dirk, Blake, Lee, Randolph, Aldridge etc. None of them are very good defensively at all.
Isnt Love 6"8? And he plays **** defense compared to everyone you mentioned save for Lee IMO. I would like to see Love abandon pursuits of rebounding in favor of defensive positioning the way Blake did last year.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 04:54 PM
Blake did miss an entire season. Not saying he's injury prone or anything, but it is what it is.

Blake IS injury prone. We massaged his minutes last year and dude still got hurt for the 2nd straight post season. He plays with so much effort/passion that hes liable to get injured in practice. I really wish he would cool it some times, he prolly still needs to learn how to pace himself. Still, it seems ALL of the top PF's are injury prone. Dirk, Blake, Love. Blake just happens to hold up the best

Nobody really deserves the number 1 spot.

Ezio
08-14-2013, 05:06 PM
I always vote for who I think will be the best at the position for the upcoming season, so I voted Love.

If I were voting on who was the best last year, obviously my vote changes drastically, since Love was non-existent.

Now stay healthy fatty, so we can win some games

So then why was Rose left off the PG rankings?

Mile High Champ
08-14-2013, 05:09 PM
So then why was Rose left off the PG rankings?

He did not meet the 10 game minimum criteria. Rose, Granger & Bynum are not on any of the polls this season.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Isnt Love 6"8? And he plays **** defense compared to everyone you mentioned save for Lee IMO. I would like to see Love abandon pursuits of rebounding in favor of defensive positioning the way Blake did last year.

He measured at 6 feet 9.5 predraft, in shoes. That's just 0.5 inches less than Blake. He's probably 6-8 without shoes.

His defense was no worse than those 5 players I named in 2011-2012. Last season, in his limited time, it was slightly better even. I can go into detail later, but when I said that I had just looked at some RAPM numbers so maybe that was clouding my judgement. But they did suggest that his defensive impact the past two seasons was not less than those guys.


I do agree that he's got some work to do positioning-wise. He doesn't put in the effort all the time, and effort is obviously a crucial first step.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2013, 05:13 PM
Agreed, we need a mulligen on last season. I was hoping last season would answer this question definitively but all I got are more questions.

yeppers. Really hoping Love, Blake, LMA, Pau, Dirk, and Davis all play healthy this season. That is the cream of the crop this upcoming year to me, and I would love to see someone pull away.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2013, 05:14 PM
So then why was Rose left off the PG rankings?

the criteria was set by the OP at a minimum of 10 games played last season. I don't make the rules.

TrueFan420
08-14-2013, 05:16 PM
Why is Duncan left of the list he played pf all year with tiago splitter at center

Kashmir13579
08-14-2013, 05:17 PM
I'm honestly torn. Kevin Love is the best option to me, but he barely played this year due in-part to self inflicted wounds. I can't vote for him. I guess i have to vote Blake by default, but i wonder how long it is before David Lee gets some recognition this year. KG for his defensive prowess still should get some love early on, even though he is a scumbag.

Kashmir13579
08-14-2013, 05:20 PM
How the F the guy who shot 35% from the field last season leads this poll almost unanimously?
I chose between Blake (hate him) and Lee, they were both decent, but Blake kinda went downhill and Lee went up in my eyes , so I chose Lee.

Really weak year for power forwards.

Yeah i really don't see how Love is leading so favorably. But i disagree its a weak year for power forwards. There are a lot of great players on that poll, maybe not elite, but great nonetheless.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2013, 05:24 PM
Yeah i really don't see how Love is leading so favorably. But i disagree its a weak year for power forwards. There are a lot of great players on that poll, maybe not elite, but great nonetheless.

He is most likely leading because many don't want to give Blake the nod yet, and everyone else was hurt and/or missed more time.

Fact is, it was a year for PF's that sucked. Every elite one was hurt either all damn year, or for a good chunk.

IversonIsKrazy
08-14-2013, 05:29 PM
This is the most difficult one IMO. I mean Dirk, Love & Gasol were all injured which hurt their performances, which is why I can't give the #1 nod this year. For me it was between Randolph, Griffin & LMA. Zach man-handled Griffin in the playoffs, but Griffin was injured which once again makes the decision difficult.
But Griffin got 18/8 during reg. season w/ CP3 as the PG. Randolph was a 15/11 guy, who became 17/10 in playoffs, but got completly shut-out by Spurs in the sweep. I gave LMA the nod here, but this has to be the closest list out of any position.

IversonIsKrazy
08-14-2013, 05:30 PM
If Duncan was on this poll (which he should be because Splitter or Diaw were constantly the starting center), I'd def give him the spot here.

IversonIsKrazy
08-14-2013, 05:34 PM
Ok, the votings should be based off of performances of LAST SEASON, not predictions of next season. And if we ARE voting based off of performances of LAST SEASOn, how the hell is a PF shooting 35% from FG playing less than half the season #1? And how did Randolph get 0 votes>

Kashmir13579
08-14-2013, 05:35 PM
He is most likely leading because many don't want to give Blake the nod yet, and everyone else was hurt and/or missed more time.

Fact is, it was a year for PF's that sucked. Every elite one was hurt either all damn year, or for a good chunk.
If i'm not giving Blake the nod, for me i gotta play it safe and vote for any number of the middle of the pack PFs who performed well this year. KG, Randolph, Lee, LMA... Its definitely a strange year for PF with so many not playing and playing hurt, so i guess i shouldn't have a problem with Love getting the love.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 05:40 PM
Ok, the votings should be based off of performances of LAST SEASON, not predictions of next season. And if we ARE voting based off of performances of LAST SEASOn, how the hell is a PF shooting 35% from FG playing less than half the season #1? And how did Randolph get 0 votes>

MHC says: REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

The poll says: #1 PF in the NBA?

Nowhere does it say anything along the lines of "vote for the player who had the best 2012-13 season". If we were just rating the individual seasons these guys had I'm sure MHC would make that clear. It would be obvious. We aren't just ranking 2012-13 seasons here.


Again, I interpret those two things as simply: "who's the best player?". I'm NOT basing any of this on potential, but I am basing it on more than just how these guys did last season. Obviously Love had a lesser season than all these guys, but I still think he's a better player than them all, and that's not because I'm projecting potential, I'm basing it on what we've already learned from him.

5ass
08-14-2013, 05:40 PM
I just cant vote Love here. I put a lot of weight into games played in 2012-2013. Thats how I've voted so far.

5ass
08-14-2013, 05:43 PM
Blake IS injury prone. We massaged his minutes last year and dude still got hurt for the 2nd straight post season. He plays with so much effort/passion that hes liable to get injured in practice. I really wish he would cool it some times, he prolly still needs to learn how to pace himself. Still, it seems ALL of the top PF's are injury prone. Dirk, Blake, Love. Blake just happens to hold up the best

Nobody really deserves the number 1 spot.

Thats how i feel too.

JasonJohnHorn
08-14-2013, 06:14 PM
I went with Griffin... I think love is the better player, but Griffin had a much better season. Love was injured so much.

Lee is a close second for me.


Love is amazing, but his percentages were AWFUL this year (expected because he only played 18 games and was just coming back from injury). 18 games shooting .352 from the floor? It has to be a pretty awful field of forward to vote him as number one.

I'm surprised to see Lee with only one vote. He was far better than a lot of the other guys getting multiple votes.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 06:19 PM
I went with Griffin... I think love is the better player, but Griffin had a much better season.

There's always confusion every year, and I'm sure I've changed up things too. But if I read this, as the OP always says, I'm going to be voting for Love.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player

Chronz
08-14-2013, 07:07 PM
He measured at 6 feet 9.5 predraft, in shoes. That's just 0.5 inches less than Blake. He's probably 6-8 without shoes.
Shoes can come in different sizes. Without shoes he measures under 6"8, but thats par for the course in todays NBA. Poor Bill Russell is still considered 6"9 and skinny by the record books when today he would prolly be listed at 6"11


His defense was no worse than those 5 players I named in 2011-2012. Last season, in his limited time, it was slightly better even. I can go into detail later, but when I said that I had just looked at some RAPM numbers so maybe that was clouding my judgement. But they did suggest that his defensive impact the past two seasons was not less than those guys.
Look I get the excitement behind the return of RAPM but lets not confuse the stats you are using, this isn't traditional RAPM its xRAPM, which from my understanding is an attempt to combine +/- with traditional boxscore metrics. So without looking at the formula (because I cant find it anywhere), Im going to assume hes still getting that inflated boost from being such a rebound hog.

Besides, if you go by what they did when they last played a full year, Blake sports the superior D xRAPM. Im not going to trust Loves "improvement" in very limited action.

Given how hard defense is to capture, we should look at more than xrapm. Im still not all that comfortable with RAPM yet, frankly I dont understand it. Prior vs non-prior, traditional vs what hes brought out. I would love it if someone could compile the stat in all its forms, its very confusing right now, which sucks because his site used to have the old stuff. I guess he chose to stick with xRAPM because he can go into eras before the 2K era.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 07:11 PM
If Duncan was on this poll (which he should be because Splitter or Diaw were constantly the starting center), I'd def give him the spot here.

I dont like agreeing with AI fans but the dude is right. IMO, Duncan lost weight precisely so he could stick to PF with Splitter alongside him.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 07:23 PM
Look I get the excitement behind the return of RAPM but lets not confuse the stats you are using, this isn't traditional RAPM its xRAPM, which from my understanding is an attempt to combine +/- with traditional boxscore metrics. So without looking at the formula (because I cant find it anywhere), Im going to assume hes still getting that inflated boost from being such a rebound hog.

Besides, if you go by what they did when they last played a full year, Blake sports the superior D xRAPM. Im not going to trust Loves "improvement" in very limited action.

Given how hard defense is to capture, we should look at more than xrapm. Im still not all that comfortable with RAPM yet, frankly I dont understand it. Prior vs non-prior, traditional vs what hes brought out. I would love it if someone could compile the stat in all its forms, its very confusing right now, which sucks because his site used to have the old stuff. I guess he chose to stick with xRAPM because he can go into eras before the 2K era.

I understand. Hence why I stated that I made that post after I was looking at (x)RAPM. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it proved my point. I was just on the site for another reason when this question popped up and figured I'd put it out there. I'm still very unsure of how exactly to apply xRAPM data, and thus try not to whip it up much. I'll mention it in passing but rarely, if ever, list it out and use it as a fact to prove my point. I love everything I read about it feel as if I can trust it's predicting power, but applying it in ways like this I try to hold off on doing.

I need to go dig into Love's true defensive worth a little later.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 07:29 PM
Did some quick googling, I found J.E.'s old 3 year studies.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/vanilla_rapm/2009-2012.html


From 09-12, Love has a negative D rating vs positive for Blake.

Someone also took the time to recover the yearly ratings.

If you look at his RAPM(NPI) for 2012, its still at a negative rating -.8.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2013-rapm-non-prior-informed-updated-march-30


So yea, not buying Love being a better defender than all the players you mentioned. Its prolly just his rebounding that fools the box score version of the stat. Im sure if we look at traditional metrics (synergy/counterpart data, adj +/-) they too wont shine favorably in comparison to a guy like Blake, LMA, Dirk.


Not that any of this matters, we are all stumped with how last year went. Duncan should be #1.

Chronz
08-14-2013, 07:36 PM
I understand. Hence why I stated that I made that post after I was looking at (x)RAPM. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it proved my point. I was just on the site for another reason when this question popped up and figured I'd put it out there. I'm still very unsure of how exactly to apply xRAPM data, and thus try not to whip it up much. I'll mention it in passing but rarely, if ever, list it out and use it as a fact to prove my point. I love everything I read about it feel as if I can trust it's predicting power, but applying it in ways like this I try to hold off on doing.

I need to go dig into Love's true defensive worth a little later.

Ive been reading that too. Just not that experienced with it yet and (if true) I dont see the point of valuing height into this equation. Seems like he just wanted to calibrate it so that bigmen get more credit.

Ezio
08-14-2013, 07:47 PM
the criteria was set by the OP at a minimum of 10 games played last season. I don't make the rules.

That's stupid should be half a season at least.

Oefarmy2005
08-14-2013, 07:53 PM
Based on drtg which estimates points allowed per 100 possessions, says Griffin and Love are on par and better then Aldridge. I voted for Love, because I am a homer but also because this is not solely based on last season. If it's based on last season only, Melo was probably the best PF with Duncan in a close second(if you consider him a PF last year) - looking at their advanced numbers.

NYMetros
08-14-2013, 10:36 PM
Have to go with Love here personally.

Sadds The Gr8
08-14-2013, 11:05 PM
Blake IS injury prone. We massaged his minutes last year and dude still got hurt for the 2nd straight post season. He plays with so much effort/passion that hes liable to get injured in practice. I really wish he would cool it some times, he prolly still needs to learn how to pace himself. Still, it seems ALL of the top PF's are injury prone. Dirk, Blake, Love. Blake just happens to hold up the best

Nobody really deserves the number 1 spot.

this

Dade County
08-14-2013, 11:41 PM
maybe I need to check again, but I don't see Bosh on the list... If this is so, for you to have some of these other names up their, and not have Bosh is a joke.

fail poll thread.

rockets-fan
08-14-2013, 11:49 PM
Deep position here, LMA all day

LMA
Love
Griffin

unleashthebeast
08-15-2013, 12:45 AM
Love, then Dirk, then LMA

NBA-GMaster
08-15-2013, 01:25 AM
TOP 3: K.Love, L. Aldridge and B. Griffin

xxplayerxx23
08-15-2013, 08:49 AM
K love
Dirk
LMA
Griffin/lee
Lee/griffin
My top 5

ManRam
08-15-2013, 09:35 AM
maybe I need to check again, but I don't see Bosh on the list... If this is so, for you to have some of these other names up their, and not have Bosh is a joke.

fail poll thread.

You're a Heat fan! Tell me who was your starting center all last year.

Oh yeah, Chris Bosh.

nycericanguy
08-15-2013, 09:58 AM
You're a Heat fan! Tell me who was your starting center all last year.

Oh yeah, Chris Bosh.

I would have put Bosh on the list. I mean Bosh has never really been a C and he certainly doesn't have a C's game. Just because a team plays u there I don't think that changes your position. KG was never a C to me either.

Melo isn't a PF either, but he played there all of last year... so if that's the logic why was he on the SF?

We shouldnt switch players positions just because their teams do. I mean Amare played C for D'antoni alot, that doesn't make him a C.

It just confuses things when you have guys that we all look at as a certain position and then they are ranked elsewhere.

D-Leethal
08-15-2013, 10:07 AM
Now this list is going to be interesting. I still think a healthy Dirk is probably cream of the crop. KG might still make a #1 PF impact with his D and automatic jump shooting.

D-Leethal
08-15-2013, 10:09 AM
Yea Bosh should definitely be on the list if Melo and LeBron were on the SF list, and KG is on the PF list. Today's NBA plays everyone out of their natural positions. We should be going by natural position not whatever position your coach decides to play you within the context of your particular roster.

D-Leethal
08-15-2013, 10:11 AM
Holy **** 37 votes for Love after last season? I think after last season, I need to see a repeat video-game-number type season and a playoff birth before giving him back the #1 PF title. To me, Dirk has earned the benefit of the doubt over his career and showed late last season, when he is healthy, he is still the top guy out there.

ManRam
08-15-2013, 10:41 AM
I would have put Bosh on the list. I mean Bosh has never really been a C and he certainly doesn't have a C's game. Just because a team plays u there I don't think that changes your position. KG was never a C to me either.

Melo isn't a PF either, but he played there all of last year... so if that's the logic why was he on the SF?

We shouldnt switch players positions just because their teams do. I mean Amare played C for D'antoni alot, that doesn't make him a C.

It just confuses things when you have guys that we all look at as a certain position and then they are ranked elsewhere.

I know MHC has adjusted things in anticipation of next year...like the controversial move of Paul George to SG. Melo will probably be forced back to the 3 next year. Maybe that's his reasoning. IDK. It's certainly less obvious than Bosh as a center.

Do people also forget that Bosh was a center for most of his time in Toronto. He came into the league as a center for them. He used to go toe-to-toe with Dwight all the time, and they were wildly fun match ups. He's probably played as much center as PF in his career. Bosh has played years of center, Melo played parts of one season as a PF and probably is moving right on back to SF again. It's not the same.

Bosh is the Miami Heat's starting center. Whether or not he fits the mold of a center in your mind, it doesn't matter. That's what he is, and that's what he's been for a lot of his career. I don't get why that's too controversial.

Duncan at center is maybe what people should be complaining about, not this.

ChiSox219
08-15-2013, 10:53 AM
I am interested in the reasons people would take LMA over Blake Griffin.

Mile High Champ
08-15-2013, 11:21 AM
I know MHC has adjusted things in anticipation of next year...like the controversial move of Paul George to SG. Melo will probably be forced back to the 3 next year. Maybe that's his reasoning. IDK. It's certainly less obvious than Bosh as a center.

Do people also forget that Bosh was a center for most of his time in Toronto. He came into the league as a center for them. He used to go toe-to-toe with Dwight all the time, and they were wildly fun match ups. He's probably played as much center as PF in his career. Bosh has played years of center, Melo played parts of one season as a PF and probably is moving right on back to SF again. It's not the same.

Bosh is the Miami Heat's starting center. Whether or not he fits the mold of a center in your mind, it doesn't matter. That's what he is, and that's what he's been for a lot of his career. I don't get why that's too controversial.

Duncan at center is maybe what people should be complaining about, not this.

As a avid Raptors fan, I would argue that Bosh played more PF than Center when he was here. Guys like Rasho Nesterovic started at center for a few years in Toronto. It was not until Bargnani started, could Bosh be considered more of a center. It is probably a mix though as near the end of his career in Toronto, he certainly played likely a little more center than power forward.

As far as George goes, yes it was a difficult call but after reading many reports from the Pacers (a team I follow very closely), the expectation is that George and Granger will start together next year. This still remains up for debate but certainly it is very possible and in my mind likely.

Carmelo is another player I had to make a judgement call on. I saw the addition of Bargnani and healthy Amare as a sign Carmelo at PF is likely over. Only because there simply does not look to be enough minutes next year for him as PF considering the weak depth the Knicks already have at SF.

Duncan has transitioned completely to be becoming a center in my mind. I think most people agree that it has been year since he was a PF. Just look at players that have started beside him like Blair and Antonio McDyess over the last 4 years. I have troubling believing either player with their respective size would be a starting center or would be covering the other teams center on D. Splitter has an unusual case since he is bigger than the last two names I mentioned but he is also quicker which has allowed him to match up with many of the stretch 4's in the league.

BklynKnicks3
08-15-2013, 11:29 AM
How is melo not the best pf in the nba this is not even close he played pf all year and u guys have him at sf smh

jericho
08-15-2013, 11:49 AM
This yr the pf spot is wide open. I really didnt see anybody stand out from the rest of the pack and Klove was injured most of the yr to vote for him. So i really have no idea who to vote for.

xxplayerxx23
08-15-2013, 12:02 PM
How is melo not the best pf in the nba this is not even close he played pf all year and u guys have him at sf smh

Maybe because he is a SF

Hawkeye15
08-15-2013, 01:19 PM
How is melo not the best pf in the nba this is not even close he played pf all year and u guys have him at sf smh

well, he isn't listed here, he was listed as the #3 SF.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 02:14 PM
Okay this seems to be based on last year so LOL at Love winning in a land slide when he was AWFUL outside of rebounding last year. Incredibly awful offensive player (efficiency wise) and incredibly awful defender as usual. Going forward it's going to be Love and Blake for years to come (which I said two years ago) at the top.