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View Full Version : Greater Case for More MVP's - Kobe or Hakeem or D.Robinson or Dirk or Garnett



JordansBulls
08-12-2013, 02:59 PM
Who had a greater case to win more MVP's than they actually did win between Kobe Bryant or Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson or Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett

cmellofan15
08-12-2013, 03:04 PM
Hakeem. Hands down the best and most dominant player on this list. Could/should have won the year Barkley got his and a few more arguable years.

Heatcheck
08-12-2013, 03:05 PM
Who had a greater case to win more MVP's than they actually did win between Kobe Bryant or Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson or Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett

KG couldve had another one, i remember it was a toss up between him and Duncan one year.
Hakeem and Robinson played with Jordan, so tough titties, they probably couldve flip flopped awards. and Dirk MAYBE couldve had one the year before he actually won it, although i feel that one probably shouldve went to Kobe

Gibby
08-12-2013, 03:06 PM
KG had some great some statistical seasons but was overlooked because of his team.

Heatcheck
08-12-2013, 03:10 PM
Hakeem. Hands down the best and most dominant player on this list. Could/should have won the year Barkley got his and a few more arguable years.
i think they were both very similar, but i give the nod to chuck, it was jordans MVP anyway

ManRam
08-12-2013, 03:15 PM
Kobe's one was borderline deserving, and I don't see a time where he deserved it other than that year. He's an all-time great because of how he was great for so long, but rarely was he the absolute best. There's nothing wrong with that.

Robinson was the best player in the league in 93-94 and 94-95 and should have won it both years. Hakeem wasn't a better player and the marginally better team success Houston saw doesn't mean much to me.

So I have Robinson deserving +1 and Hakeem deserving -1. I don't see when else Hakeem deserved it.

Dirk deserved it over Nash in 2006, easily. I have no major beefs with Dirk's 2007 MVP. So he's a +1 too I guess.

KG deserves Nash's first one IMO. So he's a +1 too. I don't think there was another year where he deserved it over the other winners. He was always unfairly overlooked because he played on crap teams.


Kobe: +0
Hakeem: -1
Robinson: +1
Dirk: +1
KG: +1


:shrug:

That's a really rough look at it. It's better to look at it year-by-year than just go based on who was really good or what not.

TrueFan420
08-12-2013, 03:23 PM
Who had a greater case to win more MVP's than they actually did win between Kobe Bryant or Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson or Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett

You should add in how many each has won already

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 03:24 PM
KG should have won it in 07-08 and you can make a case for 02-03 .

Heatcheck
08-12-2013, 03:25 PM
You should add in how many each has won already

what they have, should have no bearing on whether or not they deserved it in a different year

TrueFan420
08-12-2013, 03:30 PM
what they have, should have no bearing on whether or not they deserved it in a different year

It does if you don't think they deserved it the year the got it. Or if they were getting it as a make up for getting shafted another year. More information never hurts.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 03:32 PM
KG should have won it in 07-08 and you can make a case for 02-03 .

Paul deserved it more than KG in 2008. I do tend to think Paul deserved to win it that year, but I do waver sometimes and occasionally am OK with Kobe winning it. This is one of those times. Either way, it wasn't KG's to win.

And I do think Duncan was better in 2003 as well.

Minimal
08-12-2013, 03:37 PM
KG might have deserved a couple of more MVPs than he has.

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 03:37 PM
Paul deserved it more than KG in 2008. I do tend to think Paul deserved to win it that year, but I do waver sometimes and occasionally am OK with Kobe winning it. This is one of those times. Either way, it wasn't KG's to win.

And I do think Duncan was better in 2003 as well.

If making a turnaround from 24-58 to 66-16 and becoming a best defensive team in the league doesn't win you mvp idk what does .

I know it wasn't KG alone bla bla bla , but he was the main reason especially defensively .

Chronz
08-12-2013, 03:44 PM
KG was my MVP for sure

ManRam
08-12-2013, 03:47 PM
If making a turnaround from 24-58 to 66-16 and becoming a best defensive team in the league doesn't win you mvp idk what does .

I know it wasn't KG alone bla bla bla , but he was the main reason especially defensively .

Sure...but Paul was a better player and I do think meant more to his team. The story does matter, and that's a strong point. The Hornets roster didn't change much from 2007 to 2008, but they won 17 more games and a HUGE reason is because Chris Paul took the big step forward. I don't have a problem with anyone saying KG deserved it that year, I just personally think Paul deserved it more. It's neck and neck, and I very well could be wrong. That's just how I felt at the time and not much has changed since.

Your point about defense is very valid. KG was a culture changer. His impact translated far beyond the box score.


I did ultimately end up voting for KG in this poll. I have him at a +1, but he got the closest more often, like 2008.

IKnowHoops
08-12-2013, 03:58 PM
Kobe's one was borderline deserving, and I don't see a time where he deserved it other than that year. He's an all-time great because of how he was great for so long, but rarely was he the absolute best. There's nothing wrong with that.

Robinson was the best player in the league in 93-94 and 94-95 and should have won it both years. Hakeem wasn't a better player and the marginally better team success Houston saw doesn't mean much to me.

So I have Robinson deserving +1 and Hakeem deserving -1. I don't see when else Hakeem deserved it.

Dirk deserved it over Nash in 2006, easily. I have no major beefs with Dirk's 2007 MVP. So he's a +1 too I guess.

KG deserves Nash's first one IMO. So he's a +1 too. I don't think there was another year where he deserved it over the other winners. He was always unfairly overlooked because he played on crap teams.


Kobe: +0
Hakeem: -1
Robinson: +1
Dirk: +1
KG: +1


:shrug:

That's a really rough look at it. It's better to look at it year-by-year than just go based on who was really good or what not.

This

LegendsNvrDie23
08-12-2013, 03:59 PM
Who had a greater case to win more MVP's than they actually did win between Kobe Bryant or Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson or Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett

Shaq, hakeem, and Kobe all should have at least two a piece.

JordansBulls
08-12-2013, 04:02 PM
You should add in how many each has won already

They all have 1 each, which is why i selected them.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 04:07 PM
We'll play the fun game again that no one can accurately answer...but whatever.

Those voting Kobe, what specific years did he deserve additional MVP awards?

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 04:09 PM
We'll play the fun game again that no one can accurately answer...but whatever.

Those voting Kobe, what specific years did he deserve additional MVP awards?

i was going to ask the same question , he won it in 07-08 only because he had to win one , not because he deserved that season or any other season .

valade16
08-12-2013, 04:09 PM
Hakeem. Hands down the best and most dominant player on this list. Could/should have won the year Barkley got his and a few more arguable years.

The reason I couldn't vote for Robinson nor Hakeem is because if you look at years such as when Barkely won it and say they deserved it over him the reality is, MJ should've won all those years.

sep11ie
08-12-2013, 04:13 PM
Holy ****, JB. Ever heard of a comma?

LegendsNvrDie23
08-12-2013, 04:28 PM
We'll play the fun game again that no one can accurately answer...but whatever.

Those voting Kobe, what specific years did he deserve additional MVP awards?

I'm assuming 05-07.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2013, 04:42 PM
Kobe should have atleast 2-3 more easily
Next probably hakeem

el hidalgo
08-12-2013, 04:44 PM
Kobe should have atleast 2-3 more easily
Next probably hakeem

:facepalm:

amos1er
08-12-2013, 04:45 PM
Kobe's one was borderline deserving, and I don't see a time where he deserved it other than that year. He's an all-time great because of how he was great for so long, but rarely was he the absolute best. There's nothing wrong with that.

Robinson was the best player in the league in 93-94 and 94-95 and should have won it both years. Hakeem wasn't a better player and the marginally better team success Houston saw doesn't mean much to me.

So I have Robinson deserving +1 and Hakeem deserving -1. I don't see when else Hakeem deserved it.

Dirk deserved it over Nash in 2006, easily. I have no major beefs with Dirk's 2007 MVP. So he's a +1 too I guess.

KG deserves Nash's first one IMO. So he's a +1 too. I don't think there was another year where he deserved it over the other winners. He was always unfairly overlooked because he played on crap teams.


Kobe: +0
Hakeem: -1
Robinson: +1
Dirk: +1
KG: +1


:shrug:

That's a really rough look at it. It's better to look at it year-by-year than just go based on who was really good or what not.

You are ridiculous. I stopped reading after that.

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 04:45 PM
Kobe should have atleast 2-3 more easily
Next probably hakeem

You have absolutely nothing to back up what you just said .

amos1er
08-12-2013, 04:58 PM
Shaq, hakeem, and Kobe all should have at least two a piece.

Ya, why isn't Shaq on that poll?

Kobe should easily have at least two. In 2006 he clearly got robbed. Rose won it in 2011 with a much more pathetic stat line and was lucky to have Thibs as a coach and play in the east. 45 wins in the west in 2006 with Kobe's pathetic roster was far more impressive to me than Rose winning 62 games in the east with a great roster and one of the best defensive coaches of all time. What happened to Kobe in 2006 was a travesty. No one in the past 25 years has been able to averaged over 35 ppg...Especially with the way the game has slowed down, zone defense, and hand checking.

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-12-2013, 05:02 PM
You have absolutely nothing to back up what you just said .

35-5-5 what did Nash average in 06? And he had Johnson amare Thomas diaw bell like really that team was amazing... Kobe got robbed of atleast 2 Mvps

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:02 PM
You have absolutely nothing to back up what you just said .

2006 should have been Kobe for sure. One of the biggest MVP robberies in sports history IMO. Who cares anyways, the award has lost all credibility for me anyways. It's a popularity contest and nothing more. If they were voting for the best player in the NBA, Kobe would have four for sure. 2006-2009. I would say 2010 too, but he was injured for the last part of the year so it's pretty debatable between him and Lebron. Though Kobe still had an incredible playoff run for a guy with bone to bone knees and could still be easily argued the best in the NBA in 2010 as well... Especially with all the game winning shots he had that year.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:03 PM
35-5-5 what did Nash average in 06? And he had Johnson amare Thomas diaw bell like really that team was amazing... Kobe got robbed of atleast 2 Mvps

Agreed. What happened to Kobe in 2006 is a true example of what a sham the MVP award really is.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:04 PM
:facepalm:

Oh no! Not the dreaded face palm. :speechless: I expect nothing less from a Kobe hater like you.

jerellh528
08-12-2013, 05:04 PM
Kobe should have at least 3 or 4 mvps. But whatever, it's about titles anyways.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:07 PM
Kobe should have at least 3 or 4 mvps. But whatever, it's about titles anyways.

Ya, the MVP award is really just a side show now a days. Too many inconsistencies and unworthy winners over the years for it to maintain any sort of credibility anymore.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:21 PM
i was going to ask the same question , he won it in 07-08 only because he had to win one , not because he deserved that season or any other season .

Worst post in this thread. There aren't enough facepalms in the world for this one. Straight hater.

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 05:28 PM
Worst post in this thread. There aren't enough facepalms in the world for this one. Straight hater.

paul and kg deserved more than him that season but i wasn't upset because kobe deserves one mvp .

if you have anything to back up all these biased posts you're making i'm going for a debate , but posts like he deserves 3-4-5 mvp easily without a single thing to back it up aren't even facepalm worth it

Shlumpledink
08-12-2013, 05:29 PM
Hakeem's defensive abilities were underrated by mvp voters. The guy played defensive player of the year defense, and was one of the greatest of all time defensively, as well as being a potent offensive force while playing for terrible coaches.

I don't think the voters really looked at his two way game. Barkley's two way game was notoriously lackluster

LAKERMANIA
08-12-2013, 05:32 PM
Let me guess... Kobe deserves 0 MVPs?

Bostonjorge
08-12-2013, 05:40 PM
05 Nash MVP 11 asst 3 reb 15 pts
Kobe 6 asst 6 reb 27 pts

06 Nash MVP 10 asst 4 reb 18 pts
Kobe 4 asst 5 reb 35 pts

07 Dirk MVP 3 asst 8 reb 24 pts
Kobe 5 asst 5 reb 31 pts

Kobe should have 4 MVP's easily

archdevil84
08-12-2013, 05:41 PM
wade should have gotten one

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:45 PM
paul and kg deserved more than him that season but i wasn't upset because kobe deserves one mvp .

if you have anything to back up all these biased posts you're making i'm going for a debate , but posts like he deserves 3-4-5 mvp easily without a single thing to back it up aren't even facepalm worth it

So, you really want to go there. Ok then...

Here is why Kobe deserved it over Paul in 2008 without a doubt. First off, Kobe was the better individual offensive player and defender. He was first team All NBA and first team ALL NBA defense. Paul was only first team All NBA... He did not make first team All defensive that year. Kobe was the best player on the best team... Other than the Celtics, but KG had too much help to truly be in the running. And if you try to say that Kobe had the better team than CP3 and that's why the Laker had the better record... Think again...

Gasol: 18 ppg, 8 rpg All-Star
David West: 21 ppg, 9 rpg All-Star

Tyson Chandler: 12 ppg, 12 rpg on fg% .62
Lamar Odom: 14 ppg, 10 rpg on fg% .52

It's really debatable that CP3's Hornets were that much worse than Kobe's Lakers in 2008 considering that both of their 2nd and 3rd options were so close in talent.

Obviously, Gasol is better than West, but West was very good in 2008 and the gap in their talent back then wasn't really that big. Odom may have been a better passer than Chandler, but he was much more inconsistent, not as good a rebounder, and a much worse defender...not to mention that Chandler only had 2 less ppg than him on a far higher efficiency. It could be easily argued that Chandler was a better 3rd option than Odom. Peja was also better than anyone that the Lakers had as a 4th option that year...ala Radman or Fish.

For those who wan't to argue that Gasol was better than West, and that the Lakers only beat the Hornet by a half game in the west...lets not forget that Gasol only played 27 games as a Laker that year which means that Kobe only had him for 1/3 of the season.

Kobe essentially led a team of similar all around talent to what CP3 had to the best record in the west with Lamar Odom as his second option for 2/3 of the year and a 20 year old Bynum as a 3rd option for for only 35 games. Kobe played 20 games that year with only Odom as his second option and no legit 3rd option. He played 5 games with only Bynum as his second option with no legit 3rd option. Despite all this in addition to only having Gasol for 1/3 (27 games) of the season, he still led the Lakers to a better record than CP3 led the Hornets to.

Not to mention that in the 80th game that year when the Lakers and the Hornets were tied for best record in the west and it was the general consensus that who ever won that game would be the league MVP, Kobe stepped up and out performed CP3 and won the game. Kobe rose to the occasion when all the marbles were on the line. He put up 29, 10, and 8 on 53% from the field, and 43% from 3 with only one turnover to the 15, 17 and 6 on 31% from the field with 3 turnovers that CP3 put up. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...804110LAL.html

If you really want to see who was better that year, why don't you go look up Kobe and CP3's stats against the Spurs during the 2008 playoffs and compare them. That ought to be good for a laugh.

Clearly Kobe's presence meant more to the Lakers than CP3's to the Hornets.

Case closed.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:50 PM
wade should have gotten one

What year and over who?

Chronz
08-12-2013, 05:51 PM
05 Nash MVP 11 asst 3 reb 15 pts
Kobe 6 asst 6 reb 27 pts

06 Nash MVP 10 asst 4 reb 18 pts
Kobe 4 asst 5 reb 35 pts

07 Dirk MVP 3 asst 8 reb 24 pts
Kobe 5 asst 5 reb 31 pts

Kobe should have 4 MVP's easily

Nash's MVP wasn't about his stats but what his presence meant to a superior team. And if you do insinst on using stats, why not use the top shelf stuff?

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:53 PM
05 Nash MVP 11 asst 3 reb 15 pts
Kobe 6 asst 6 reb 27 pts

06 Nash MVP 10 asst 4 reb 18 pts
Kobe 4 asst 5 reb 35 pts

07 Dirk MVP 3 asst 8 reb 24 pts
Kobe 5 asst 5 reb 31 pts

Kobe should have 4 MVP's easily

Ya, if they did it for the best player in the NBA, Kobe would have 4-5 easily. Too bad they came up with this crap about you having to be on a top team as well. Seems like they came up with that **** just to eliminate Kobe.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-12-2013, 05:54 PM
2006 should have been Kobe for sure. One of the biggest MVP robberies in sports history IMO. Who cares anyways, the award has lost all credibility for me anyways. It's a popularity contest and nothing more. If they were voting for the best player in the NBA, Kobe would have four for sure. 2006-2009. I would say 2010 too, but he was injured for the last part of the year so it's pretty debatable between him and Lebron. Though Kobe still had an incredible playoff run for a guy with bone to bone knees and could still be easily argued the best in the NBA in 2010 as well... Especially with all the game winning shots he had that year.

This is true, MJ should have 8-10. I think MVP's are the most watered down award.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 05:56 PM
Nash's MVP wasn't about his stats but what his presence meant to a superior team. And if you do insinst on using stats, why not use the top shelf stuff?

I can agree with that, but by that same token, why do people come out and hate on Kobe for 2008 then? What about Lebron getting it over Kobe in 2009? If thats true than you are making a case for Kobe over Lebron in 2009. It can be argued easily that Kobe's presence was more valuable even though his team was superior to Lebron's. Most who made a case against Kobe that year said that they didn't give Kobe the nod only because his team was superior... Yet they conveniently didn't handicap for the strengths of their respective conferences.

Chronz
08-12-2013, 06:01 PM
Ya, why isn't Shaq on that poll?
Because there would be nothing to debate. Its not just about the player but who beat them, and nobody has a weaker MVP defeat than Shaq losing to Iverson. Losing it to Nash is pretty bad tho.

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 06:06 PM
I can agree with that, but by that same token, why do people come out and hate on Kobe for 2008 then? What about Lebron getting it over Kobe in 2009? If thats true than you are making a case for Kobe over Lebron in 2009. It can be argued easily that Kobe's presence was more valuable even though his team was superior to Lebron's. Most who made a case against Kobe that year said that they didn't give Kobe the nod only because his team was superior... Yet they conveniently didn't handicap for the strengths of their respective conferences.

There's nothing wrong for getting MVP because of how great kobe was during his career ,but paul was a better player in 07-08 and every single stat agrees with me , and KG helped the celtics make one of the biggest turnarounds ever and that to me is mvp worthy

Chronz
08-12-2013, 06:10 PM
I can agree with that, but by that same token, why do people come out and hate on Kobe for 2008 then? What about Lebron getting it over Kobe in 2009? If thats true than you are making a case for Kobe over Lebron in 2009. It can be argued easily that Kobe's presence was more valuable even though his team was superior to Lebron's. Most who made a case against Kobe that year said that they didn't give Kobe the nod only because his team was superior... .

To be clear, I dont have Nash as the MVP of either of those years so that post was more me explaining why Nash would have a case ahead of Kobe, not that Kobe or he were the best choices.
When you surmise my point by saying "by that same token so and so..." you are in fact not using my exact same rationale. For example,


Bron in 09 was both statistically superior, on the better regular season team (this is a RS award afterall) and he led the Cavs to these heights despite having inferior talent alongside him. If you can name me a less talented 66 win Squad outside their best player, I will be impressed but it will still not compare to the talent Kobe had alongside him this very same year. Its actually a no brainer at this point.


Yet they conveniently didn't handicap for the strengths of their respective conferencesWe've had this argument before, and again I will repeat it here now. We have actual statistical barometers that scientifically adjust for strength of opposition, and they still paint Cleveland as the better regular season team. So attempting to portray the Lakers as a superior team if only people accounted for your opinion is just that, your unsubstantiated opinion with absolutely no methodology. The Lakers proved to be the best team in the NBA but you dont get MVP for playoff performance.

EDIT) The Lakers and Cavs were so close in regular season success, that Brons statistical superiority combined with inferior support is what makes it the no brainer. Team success was irrelevant in this comparison.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 06:11 PM
Agreed. What happened to Kobe in 2006 is a true example of what a sham the MVP award really is.

Kobe's legacy has long been boosted because he's played on great teams. In 2006 he was on a BAD team. Never before has there been an MVP winner on that bad of a team. You can't pick and choose when team success matters...and that's what you're doing here. Ignore it when you want, pretend like it means everything when you want...it doesn't work like that.

He was hardly any better than Dirk, LeBron, KG or Wade, AND his team stunk.

Get out of here. He wasn't robbed at all :laugh:

Lake_Show2416
08-12-2013, 06:12 PM
Kobe & Shaq, no bias here :rolleyes:

amos1er
08-12-2013, 06:13 PM
There's nothing wrong for getting MVP because of how great kobe was during his career

MVP is not a liftime achievement award. Stop trying to make it seem like Kobe got a hand out in 2008 because he clearly deserved it that year.


,but paul was a better player in 07-08 and every single stat agrees with me ,

Completely and 100% wrong. Why don't you try replying to the post I sent you on the last page before you go making accusations like this. You know, the one you conveniently ignored.


and KG helped the celtics make one of the biggest turnarounds ever .

Just because the Celtics sucked the year before him does not influence his measure of deserving for the MVP award, nor does it have any bearing on how they did in 2008 with a completely different team other than KG. The addition of Ray Allen, coupled with the additional growth of Rondo and Perkins had a lot to do with that as well. It would be one thing if the team was the exact same and they just added KG and all of the sudden won 30 more games, but that was not the case at all and frankly I don't know why you are trying to represent it that way.

Chronz
08-12-2013, 06:14 PM
Ya, if they did it for the best player in the NBA, Kobe would have 4-5 easily. Too bad they came up with this crap about you having to be on a top team as well. Seems like they came up with that **** just to eliminate Kobe.
Did you disagree with David Robinson winning it vs Hakeem?

ManRam
08-12-2013, 06:29 PM
Ya, if they did it for the best player in the NBA, Kobe would have 4-5 easily. Too bad they came up with this crap about you having to be on a top team as well. Seems like they came up with that **** just to eliminate Kobe.

Kobe's TEAM SUCCESS probably carries his legacy further than any player of the last two decades. It's is truly amazing that you are now spinning things to suggest that his legacy is hindered by the poor teams he's played on :laugh: Truly remarkable. The double standards you're willing to whip up just to make your point.

I'm still not sure you're actually a Kobe fan. You have to be a troll. Right?

amos1er
08-12-2013, 06:29 PM
Kobe's legacy has long been boosted because he's played on great teams. In 2006 he was on a BAD team. Never before has there been an MVP winner on that bad of a team. You can't pick and choose when team success matters...and that's what you're doing here. Ignore it when you want, pretend like it means everything when you want...it doesn't work like that.

He was hardly any better than Dirk, LeBron, KG or Wade, AND his team stunk.

Get out of here. He wasn't robbed at all :laugh:

Completely 100% false.

Kareem won it in 1976 when the Lakers only won 40 games.

Bookey
08-12-2013, 06:33 PM
Easily Kobe here for me, Dirk shouldn't be in the conversation. The year he won Kobe should have. Kobe should have at least 4 MVP's. KG is second in my opinion, he had to compete wit Duncan who had better supporting casts. The Dream and The Admiral were great but when in an era with Michael Jordan one MVP is plenty good enough. At the end of the day it's just sad that Steve Nash has more MVP's than all of these guys smh.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 06:36 PM
Kobe's TEAM SUCCESS probably carries his legacy further than any player of the last two decades. It's is truly amazing that you are now spinning things to suggest that his legacy is hindered by the poor teams he's played on :laugh: Truly remarkable. The double standards you're willing to whip up just to make your point.

I'm still not sure you're actually a Kobe fan. You have to be a troll. Right?

You call me a troll, yet every one of your rebuttals to me have had laughing smileys. Give me a break. What about Kobe in 2009 then, his team was better than Lebron's, yet everyone used that fact to eliminate Kobe all of the sudden. They tried to say that since Kobe had the better team he was not as valuable to his team as Lebron was to his even though they both won a similar amount of games. Yet the true hypocrisy of it all is that they didn't account for the strength of the respective conferences they both played in but they accounted for team strength. Talk about picking and choosing criteria and double standards. Lol

Bostonjorge
08-12-2013, 06:38 PM
Kobe's TEAM SUCCESS probably carries his legacy further than any player of the last two decades. It's is truly amazing that you are now spinning things to suggest that his legacy is hindered by the poor teams he's played on :laugh: Truly remarkable. The double standards you're willing to whip up just to make your point.

I'm still not sure you're actually a Kobe fan. You have to be a troll. Right?

Talk about trolling. Kobe has had more individual success more then any player all time. Also the MVP is also a individual award and not a team reward. If championships don't make a player great then why do regular season records?

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 06:38 PM
MVP is not a liftime achievement award. Stop trying to make it seem like Kobe got a hand out in 2008 because he clearly deserved it that year.



Completely and 100% wrong. Why don't you try replying to the post I sent you on the last page before you go making accusations like this. You know, the one you conveniently ignored.

and KG helped the celtics make one of the biggest turnarounds ever .

Just because the Celtics sucked the year before him does not influence his measure of deserving for the MVP award, nor does it have any bearing on how they did in 2008 with a completely different team other than KG. The addition of Ray Allen, coupled with the additional growth of Rondo and Perkins had a lot to do with that as well. It would be one thing if the team was the exact same and they just added KG and all of the sudden won 30 more games, but that was not the case at all and frankly I don't know why you are trying to represent it that way.

Kobe Bryant TS% .576 ,eFG% .503,ORtg 115,DRtg 105,OWs 6.6,DWs 4.3,Ws/48.208
Kevin Garnet TS% .588 ,eFG% .539,ORtg 118, DRtg 94,OWs 6.6,DWs 6.2,Ws/48 .265
Chris Paul TS% .576,eFG% .524,ORtg 125,DRtg 103,OWs 13.2,DWs 4.6, Ws/48 .284

Eg714
08-12-2013, 06:40 PM
The main reason Kobe doenst have more MVP's is because he is hated. He should at least have a couple of them easily.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 06:45 PM
You call me a troll, yet every one of your rebuttals to me have had laughing smileys. Give me a break. What about Kobe in 2009 then, his team was better than Lebron's, yet everyone used that fact to eliminate Kobe all of the sudden. They tried to say that since Kobe had the better team he was not as valuable to his team as Lebron was to his even though they both won a similar amount of games. Yet the true hypocrisy of it all is that they didn't account for the strength of the respective conferences they both played in but they accounted for team strength. Talk about picking and choosing criteria and double standards. Lol

The laughing smilies are the because I'm laughing while reading this stuff. The mental gymnastics some of you guys are going through to argue how Kobe deserved more MVPs is amazing.


You HAVE to admit that you understand why people are going to laugh when you say he was "ROBBED" in 2006. I don't like how the MVP voting goes myself, but how can you say he was "ROBBED" when a) he wasn't significantly (if at all) better than his peers and b) he was on the 7th best team in the West? Maybe he was the best player, but no one EVER is going to win an MVP when those two things are the case. It's not robbery, at all. Regardless of who that is that player is NEVER winning an MVP while on a 7th seeded team, ever.

In 2009 LeBron was better than Kobe, and his team was too (with less talent around it). I'd like to hear an argument as to how Kobe was more valuable to his team that season than LeBron was. Please, try me. I'm not picking and choosing here. LeBron was the better player on the better team (in the regular season...which is what this award is about) :shrug: The statistics overwhelmingly suggest that.

He had a RAPM of +11.3 that season. Kobe had a 5.5. The gap in their impact on a game that season was HUGE.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 06:52 PM
The main reason Kobe doenst have more MVP's is because he is hated. He should at least have a couple of them easily.

Yeah...that's it. :rolleyes: Definitely isn't just the fact that things rarely were set up for him to win the award. As long as Shaq was there he wasn't gonna win it. He essentially first becomes eligible because of that in 2004-2005. Unfortunately the next three seasons they never cracked 45 wins, so he is again not going to be in contention barring the best individual season of all time...which didn't happen.

So now we're in 2007-2008. It's that year that he finally is set up to win it. He's now the best player on his team, and his team is now good again. Sure enough, he wins it!!

Unfortuantely for him the next season LeBron hits him prime, Kobe is now 30 and no longer widely perceived (fair or not) as the league's best player. He's still great, but he's not putting up the numbers he did in his absolute prime.


His window to win them was so narrow. He'll go down perceived as a player way better than just a 1-time NBA MVP...because of his longevity and team success. MVPs matter, but only so much. It's not an indictment on Kobe's ability that he only has one MVP as much as it is an indictment on the strength of the leagues he played in, some unfortunate timing and Shaq & Bron...two of the 5-7 most dominant players in their primes ever.


It's not hate. If you can think rationally you can understand why it happened.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-12-2013, 06:59 PM
The main reason Kobe doenst have more MVP's is because he is hated. He should at least have a couple of them easily.

I think this is correct, If he wasn't accused of rape i think he has 3 MVPS.

Pablonovi
08-12-2013, 06:59 PM
05 Nash MVP 11 asst 3 reb 15 pts
Kobe 6 asst 6 reb 27 pts

06 Nash MVP 10 asst 4 reb 18 pts
Kobe 4 asst 5 reb 35 pts

07 Dirk MVP 3 asst 8 reb 24 pts
Kobe 5 asst 5 reb 31 pts

Kobe should have 4 MVP's easily

Hey Bostonjorge,
On your comparisons of 05,06 and 07; not only did Kobe do more offensively (as indicated by the asst and pts, and to a smaller extent rebs - because most of those are defensive); but DEFENSIVELY he was FAR superior to Nash both those years and to Dirk - Kobe was at the height of his defensive-pro-ess those years.

On the other hand, there are decent arguments in each of those three years for still others not mentioned in your post.

Pablonovi
08-12-2013, 07:02 PM
Yeah...that's it. :rolleyes: Definitely isn't just the fact that things rarely were set up for him to win the award. As long as Shaq was there he wasn't gonna win it. He essentially first becomes eligible because of that in 2004-2005. Unfortunately the next three seasons they never cracked 45 wins, so he is again not going to be in contention barring the best individual season of all time...which didn't happen.

So now we're in 2007-2008. It's that year that he finally is set up to win it. He's now the best player on his team, and his team is now good again. Sure enough, he wins it!!

Unfortuantely for him the next season LeBron hits him prime, Kobe is now 30 and no longer widely perceived (fair or not) as the league's best player. He's still great, but he's not putting up the numbers he did in his absolute prime.


His window to win them was so narrow. He'll go down perceived as a player way better than just a 1-time NBA MVP...because of his longevity and team success. MVPs matter, but only so much. It's not an indictment on Kobe's ability that he only has one MVP as much as it is an indictment on the strength of the leagues he played in, some unfortunate timing and Shaq & Bron...two of the 5-7 most dominant players in their primes ever.


It's not hate. If you can think rationally you can understand why it happened.

Hey ManRan,
I agree with your points here.
imo: one of your better posts.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-12-2013, 07:03 PM
Yeah...that's it. :rolleyes: Definitely isn't just the fact that things rarely were set up for him to win the award. As long as Shaq was there he wasn't gonna win it. He essentially first becomes eligible because of that in 2004-2005. Unfortunately the next three seasons they never cracked 45 wins, so he is again not going to be in contention barring the best individual season of all time...which didn't happen.

So now we're in 2007-2008. It's that year that he finally is set up to win it. He's now the best player on his team, and his team is now good again. Sure enough, he wins it!!

Unfortuantely for him the next season LeBron hits him prime, Kobe is now 30 and no longer widely perceived (fair or not) as the league's best player. He's still great, but he's not putting up the numbers he did in his absolute prime.


His window to win them was so narrow. He'll go down perceived as a player way better than just a 1-time NBA MVP...because of his longevity and team success. MVPs matter, but only so much. It's not an indictment on Kobe's ability that he only has one MVP as much as it is an indictment on the strength of the leagues he played in, some unfortunate timing and Shaq & Bron...two of the 5-7 most dominant players in their primes ever.


It's not hate. If you can think rationally you can understand why it happened.

I'm sorry, but you come off as a huge Kobe hater. I'm sure not cracking 45 wins had something to do with him having a god awful team, not him. To say Kobe is great based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous.

Pablonovi
08-12-2013, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry, but you come off as a huge Kobe hater. I'm sure not cracking 45 wins had something to do with him having a god awful team, not him. To say Kobe is great based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous.

Hey LegendsNvrDie,
I don't mean to put a word in your mouth but, when you said this, "To say Kobe is great based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous." did you really mean, : "To say Kobe is great JUST based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous."? If not, then I don't understand your meaning.

Chronz
08-12-2013, 07:11 PM
I'm sorry, but you come off as a huge Kobe hater. I'm sure not cracking 45 wins had something to do with him having a god awful team, not him.
Ummm where did he say the team was that awful because of Kobe? Sounds more like you take offense to any relevant critique.


To say Kobe is great based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous.
Why? Hes speaking on personal experience. And Kobe has amazing longevity, its far and away what makes him stand out from any other perimeter player. And team success has proven to enhance reputations (as you pointed out in the Tmac thread, right or wrong) remember?

valade16
08-12-2013, 07:11 PM
Honestly, I think if Kobe hadn't been accused of rape he would've won more than 1 MVP.

Now whether he actually deserved them is another story, but I believe the opinion of him was so high he would've gotten 1 more.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm sorry, but you come off as a huge Kobe hater. I'm sure not cracking 45 wins had something to do with him having a god awful team, not him. To say Kobe is great based off his longevity and team success is beyond ludicrous.

You're misunderstanding my point on the last part. Kobe has peak dominance, I'm not saying otherwise, and I'm not merely saying those are the only two things that shape his career. He is great based on a plethora of things, including peak dominance. His peak just wasn't quite as good as some of the all-time greats, and where he is indeed making up for that is with longevity and team success. That is also absolutely NOT a bad thing at all. It's the most obvious thing, along with others, that separates him from the Wades and T-Macs of the world, for example. I'm not saying that to slight him.


Go tell me an MVP winner that was on a sub-45 win team in the past 3 decades. Moses Malone is the closest to that, but he played in weak leagues and that was 30+ years ago. It just doesn't happen. That 2006 season was perhaps Kobe's best, and it's a shame it was one of the few years he wasn't on a great team. Unfortunately for MVPs that's just how the cookie crumbles. And in 2009 it certainly is a tossup as to who was better; LeBron or Kobe. I explained briefly why I think it's LeBron. Instead of calling me a "hater" tell me how I'm wrong.

I'm not saying Kobe didn't deserve more than 1 MVP because Kobe is a bad player or anything. Hell, I don't think Kobe fans should care about MVPs; they aren't what are shaping his legacy. Again, it's just a mixture of bad timing and strong competition. He only had a tiny window to win it, fair or not.

I don't care what I come off as...if you can't refute my posts I'm not worry about it. I don't think I'm saying anything that isn't true.

lakerfan85
08-12-2013, 07:48 PM
Kobe's TEAM SUCCESS probably carries his legacy further than any player of the last two decades. It's is truly amazing that you are now spinning things to suggest that his legacy is hindered by the poor teams he's played on :laugh: Truly remarkable. The double standards you're willing to whip up just to make your point.

I'm still not sure you're actually a Kobe fan. You have to be a troll. Right?

Hmmm... Throwing around the troll word... As if you have never done that...

ManRam
08-12-2013, 07:51 PM
Hmmm... Throwing around the troll word... As if you have never done that...

I admit(ted) when I troll(ed) ;)

There's a difference!

lakerfan85
08-12-2013, 07:58 PM
I admit(ted) when I troll(ed) ;)

There's a difference!

Fair enough..

TrueFan420
08-12-2013, 08:04 PM
They all have 1 each, which is why i selected them.

Ok thanks

leprechaun5
08-12-2013, 08:16 PM
There are about 20 posts in this thread "kobe should have won it 2-3-4 more easily" and when they're asked to back it up ,they just disappear or come with some nonsense biased-childish response .

Hawkeye15
08-12-2013, 08:36 PM
KG and Robinson have a case for one more to me. The problem is, the award is inconsistent, and many times goes to the wrong guy to me. But I think of the players you listed, those 2 come to mind.

Tony_Starks
08-12-2013, 08:59 PM
KG should have more. Kobe should have more. Robinson stole one of the Dreams but the playoffs told who the real MVP was that year....

ArmLaker
08-12-2013, 10:01 PM
Hakeem and drob could've had two... Max

Same with kg.

Kobe I feel deserved at least 2 but his image was still tarnished and recovering. He could've won 3 MAX.

I like Nash and Malone but its pretty funny in hindsight how they have more than arguably better players.

Shaq should've had at least 3 IMO

jaji10
08-12-2013, 10:08 PM
kobe deserved 08 mvp coz no one expected them to be good that season.. they we're leading the west even before they got pau gasol.. bynum was also injured that year., chris paul is great but he is so overrated here in psd.. the max kobe should have won was 2 mvp's.. if the lakers at least won 50 games in 06 he could've won it. or in 09 coz that laker team was dominant, finished with the best record.. btw, shaq also has only 1 mvp.. this 2 laker with 9 rings between them underachieved with the mvp trophy.. nash had 2 to equal them yet he has no ring to show off and hasn't been to the nba finals ever... wow!!

amos1er
08-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Did you disagree with David Robinson winning it vs Hakeem?

I don't really have a problem with anyone winning it as long as they keep the criteria consistent. Though Hakeem was clearly the better player and proved so in the playoffs.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 10:54 PM
Because there would be nothing to debate. Its not just about the player but who beat them, and nobody has a weaker MVP defeat than Shaq losing to Iverson. Losing it to Nash is pretty bad tho.

Ya, totally agree. Iverson over Shaq was pure robbery. Rose over Howard in 2011 was another bad one as of late. The Nash over Kobe thing IMO was mainly due to his reputation being tarnished. No player has been able to average 35 ppg in about 25 years. That alone is pretty damn amazing especially considering the amount the game has slowed down, zone defense, hand checking...etc. Oh well, it's just an award at the end of the day I suppose. Doesn't really change anyones opinions all that much. People are going to like who they are going to like at the end of the day.

amos1er
08-12-2013, 10:58 PM
There are about 20 posts in this thread "kobe should have won it 2-3-4 more easily" and when they're asked to back it up ,they just disappear or come with some nonsense biased-childish response .

I already responded to you the last time you called this out so you know that is no longer true. Your best rebuttal was to list some arbitrary advanced stats. So what your basically saying is that the MVP should be chosen based on some list of hand picked advanced stats that you think are most telling without bothering to explain as to why.

UPRock
08-12-2013, 11:09 PM
This thread died when Amos1er began to talk about Kobe.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 11:29 PM
Ya, totally agree. Iverson over Shaq was pure robbery. Rose over Howard in 2011 was another bad one as of late. The Nash over Kobe thing IMO was mainly due to his reputation being tarnished. No player has been able to average 35 ppg in about 25 years. That alone is pretty damn amazing especially considering the amount the game has slowed down, zone defense, hand checking...etc. Oh well, it's just an award at the end of the day I suppose. Doesn't really change anyones opinions all that much. People are going to like who they are going to like at the end of the day.

No. Kobe didn't win it in 2006 because he was on a bad team and wasn't head over heals better than the competition. Nothing more, nothing less. He finished 4th especially because of record. It had nothing to do with his reputation, it had everything to do with the voters' MVP criteria, criteria that has always existed and always will.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-13-2013, 12:22 AM
Ummm where did he say the team was that awful because of Kobe? Sounds more like you take offense to any relevant critique.


Why? Hes speaking on personal experience. And Kobe has amazing longevity, its far and away what makes him stand out from any other perimeter player. And team success has proven to enhance reputations (as you pointed out in the Tmac thread, right or wrong) remember?

He was saying the Lakers never cracked 45 wins with him as the leader to try and knock Kobe, when in fact it's a miracle they won 45 games with him on the team. In no way should Kobe be held accountable for them only reaching 45 games.

I'm sure Kobe's stats, game winners, awards, and accomplishments have nothing to do with him being so great. Give me a break. Kobe is much much more than just an iron man.

hidalgo
08-13-2013, 01:36 AM
Shaquille should have had 3 mvps at least. he was robbed a few times for sure. Jordan as well, he should have had 7 or 8 mvps at least but they got pukey sick of voting for him & it became the "anyone besides Jordan mvp" a lot of years

MickeyMgl
08-13-2013, 02:16 AM
In order...
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki

This is not necessarily about who is/was best, but who had the most "other" seasons (other than the year they did win) in which they reasonably could/should have won the MVP Award.

Mcdoh
08-13-2013, 02:32 AM
KG, robinson and kobe

ManRam
08-13-2013, 09:34 AM
He was saying the Lakers never cracked 45 wins with him as the leader to try and knock Kobe, when in fact it's a miracle they won 45 games with him on the team. In no way should Kobe be held accountable for them only reaching 45 games.

I'm sure Kobe's stats, game winners, awards, and accomplishments have nothing to do with him being so great. Give me a break. Kobe is much much more than just an iron man.

I'm not though. I'm saying it to explain why he didn't deserve the MVP :shrug: That's what this thread is about: MVPs. It's not an attack on Kobe...it's explaining why he didn't win those MVPs and WHY that makes sense.

Kobe is a player who certainly was good enough to win multiple MVPs...it just never set itself up that way. And again, I keep saying that it was more of a matter of bad timing than anything else, which is a really polite way to say why he didn't deserve more. It's not an attack on his greatness, it's just the truth.

Still no one has provided a compelling argument as to what years Kobe should have won more MVPs. I think it's pretty obvious to non-Kobe fans why 2006 didn't happen. If someone you didn't like had a great year but was on a sub-45 win team there is no way you'd ever argue they deserved the MVP. Never. That's just not how MVPs work, fair or not. 2009 was closer, but LeBron was a tad better and his team had a slightly better record. It kinda sucks for Kobe. My point again, and I'm NOT slandering him, is that Kobe's legacy doesn't suffer from only winning one MVP. His legacy is so strong because of other perhaps more important things. I'll never knock him for only winning 1 MVP because I understand WHY that happened and I don't think it's a huge indictment on him.

Reading comprehension. I'm not slandering...I'm just explaining.

Heatcheck
08-13-2013, 09:48 AM
35-5-5 what did Nash average in 06? And he had Johnson amare Thomas diaw bell like really that team was amazing... Kobe got robbed of atleast 2 Mvps

that was NOT an amazing team, they all proved later how much better nash made them look than what they really were...but yeah i do agree that should have been Kobes MVP

Heatcheck
08-13-2013, 09:49 AM
Ya, why isn't Shaq on that poll?

Kobe should easily have at least two. In 2006 he clearly got robbed. Rose won it in 2011 with a much more pathetic stat line and was lucky to have Thibs as a coach and play in the east. 45 wins in the west in 2006 with Kobe's pathetic roster was far more impressive to me than Rose winning 62 games in the east with a great roster and one of the best defensive coaches of all time. What happened to Kobe in 2006 was a travesty. No one in the past 25 years has been able to averaged over 35 ppg...Especially with the way the game has slowed down, zone defense, and hand checking.

Considering Lebron shouldve won it the year Kobe did, i think Kobe is good right were he's at with 1.

Heatcheck
08-13-2013, 10:05 AM
Ya, totally agree. Iverson over Shaq was pure robbery. Rose over Howard in 2011 was another bad one as of late. The Nash over Kobe thing IMO was mainly due to his reputation being tarnished. No player has been able to average 35 ppg in about 25 years. That alone is pretty damn amazing especially considering the amount the game has slowed down, zone defense, hand checking...etc. Oh well, it's just an award at the end of the day I suppose. Doesn't really change anyones opinions all that much. People are going to like who they are going to like at the end of the day.

First, there is no hand checking in basketball, its been illegal on the baseline since 94, and completely banned sinced 04-05, and the 3 second rule has been around since 2001, both making it MUCH easier for wing players to score, than say when Jordan dropped 35ppg. there were also 3 other players averaging 30 ppg (Iverson 33ppg and Lebron at 31ppg) plus Arenas who had 29ppg, that probably took away from the awe factor, kind of like when something like 3 QBs broke the single season passing record in one year, and usually you might have one every couple of years who challenged it, the league was still adapting to new rules.

ManRam
08-13-2013, 10:19 AM
Maybe shifting the discussion away from Kobe...

Hakeem is in second. I admittedly rate Hakeem lower than most, perhaps incorrectly. But I'm curious what specific years people think he should have won additional MVPs. I'm struggling to see them myself...but again, I might be seeing things wrong with him.

Heatcheck
08-13-2013, 10:50 AM
Maybe shifting the discussion away from Kobe...

Hakeem is in second. I admittedly rate Hakeem lower than most, perhaps incorrectly. But I'm curious what specific years people think he should have won additional MVPs. I'm struggling to see them myself...but again, I might be seeing things wrong with him.

Like i said, he and robinson couldve easily flip flopped mvps those 2 years, and without the presence of Jordan, you could easily say hakeem shouldve won Barkleys MVP

Sly Guy
08-13-2013, 01:21 PM
KG had some great some statistical seasons but was overlooked because of his team.

that's pretty much why I give him the nod in this one. Dude was the lone wolf for a very long time

Chronz
08-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Like i said, he and robinson couldve easily flip flopped mvps those 2 years, and without the presence of Jordan, you could easily say hakeem shouldve won Barkleys MVP

Robinson had the better stats, FAR more wins, and less talent around him. What does Hakeem have going for him?

ManRam
08-13-2013, 02:26 PM
Like i said, he and robinson couldve easily flip flopped mvps those 2 years, and without the presence of Jordan, you could easily say hakeem shouldve won Barkleys MVP

This...


Robinson had the better stats, FAR more wins, and less talent around him. What does Hakeem have going for him?


I don't see Hakeem's argument there.

tkshy
08-13-2013, 02:59 PM
MJ by far. Not even on the list. He was the best player on the best team. The best in the league for an eight to ten year stretch. Five is great but should have had a couple more.

valade16
08-13-2013, 03:11 PM
The years Hakeem and Robinson won the award were the correct years for them.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 03:34 PM
Kobe has had more individual success more then any player all time.

Did I really just read that?

tr3ymill3r
08-13-2013, 04:04 PM
I always thought Kobe should have had more since he was considered the best player in the league for a good stretch.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 04:57 PM
Did I really just read that?
It's not an opinion it's fact. The most individual awards and accomplishments.

AIRMAR72
08-13-2013, 05:09 PM
Considering Lebron shouldve won it the year Kobe did, i think Kobe is good right were he's at with 1.CORRECT!! Chris Paul or Bron should have won the MVP in 08 but stern and his crew handed it to kobe

el hidalgo
08-13-2013, 05:11 PM
CORRECT!! Chris Paul or Bron should have won the MVP in 08 but stern and his crew handed it to kobe


Hasn't amos1er told you? Stern hates Kobe and loves LeBron. That's why his stats are good.

AIRMAR72
08-13-2013, 05:14 PM
its Hakeem the DREAM used and abuse David Robinson and a younger Tim Duncan at WILL the best center to ever played in the NBA

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:20 PM
CORRECT!! Chris Paul or Bron should have won the MVP in 08 but stern and his crew handed it to kobe

Stern has no influence on the MVP award. Just stop it.

valade16
08-13-2013, 05:22 PM
It's not an opinion it's fact. The most individual awards and accomplishments.

That is factually incorrect. I know for a fact that MJ has more individual awards and accomplishments...

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:27 PM
its Hakeem the DREAM used and abuse David Robinson and a younger Tim Duncan at WILL the best center to ever played in the NBA

I can't comment much on this because my memory is too hazy about happenings in the late 90s...but I'm not certain you're right, especially about TD. I don't actually care how TD vs. Hakeem match ups went, because Hakeem was 35 when TD came in the league and TD obviously was in his infancy.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=duncati01

As for Robinson, it looks like Dream had his hand in the playoffs, but that's a tiny sample size (one series). In the regular season I see no domination one way or the other.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01


I'll admit those comparisons could be misleading, but I've already plead ignorance. Maybe one of the old farts could answer more accurately.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 05:28 PM
It's not an opinion it's fact. The most individual awards and accomplishments.

:laugh2: please do explain.

MTar786
08-13-2013, 05:33 PM
Kobe deserved it in 01 or 02 or 03. the league seemed to boycott shaq and Kobe because they were just to good.

My personal opinion
01
03
06 even though his team sucked
07 most deff.
08

Realistically he should have 3 mvp's 01 or 03. 06 or 07. And 08. But we all know the league hates Kobe.

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:35 PM
It's not an opinion it's fact. The most individual awards and accomplishments.

You've got to be kidding me.

You really are going to stand behind "Kobe has had more individual success more then any player all time".

It's **** like this that leads people to believe I hate Kobe. How the hell can I not respond harshly to idiotic **** like this?


Kobe's got 3 major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He's been on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams (Defense and All-NBA). 8 more 2nd and 3rd teams.
15X All Star

In 17 Seasons

Jordan, for example, has ELEVEN major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He was on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams. Never a 2nd or 3rd.
14X All Star

He did that all in 15 seasons. That's amazing.


Get out of here. Those ELEVEN major awards for Jordan end the conversation immediately. Game over.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 05:41 PM
Kobe wins Close thread.

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:43 PM
Kobe deserved it in 01 or 02 or 03. the league seemed to boycott shaq and Kobe because they were just to good.

My personal opinion
01
03
06 even though his team sucked
07 most deff.
08

Realistically he should have 3 mvp's 01 or 03. 06 or 07. And 08. But we all know the league hates Kobe.

You really think Kobe deserved the MVP in 01 or 03 over Shaq? Let alone Duncan? I mean, Kobe finished NINTH in 2001 :laugh2: You really are gonna sit here and act like he should have been a serious MVP candidate?

And please explain to me how he was better than Duncan (or KG for that matter) in 2003.

I hate when people say this, but how old are you?



I've stated why he didn't deserve it in 06 and 07. I'm sure if it was any other player on a 45 win team you would laugh at the notion of them deserving the MVP. And there's no double standard with a dude who maybe was the best player not winning it when on a 45-win team. The EXACT same thing happened to LeBron in 2008. He had the best stats (including a scoring title) but only got ONE vote. That's why Kobe didn't win it those two years, and it was NOT unfair treatment. It's the treatment players on mediocre teams have basically always gotten. And to pretend like Kobe somehow should have broken that trend is homerific.

There's not anti-Kobe double standard when it comes to players on mediocre teams not winning. Period. Stop being dillusional. That's how it's ALWAYS worked. I mean, just ask KG.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 05:44 PM
15 time all NBA team tied for 1st ever

12 defensive team tied for 1st ever

3rd most in 40+ and 50+ point games 133 and 26

2nd in 60+ games 5

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

4th all time leading scorer and still moving up

3rd all time playoff scoring not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

1 MVP

2 final's MVP

Enough said

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:44 PM
Kobe wins Close thread.

He wins the poll, for sure. All the Kobephiles came out in full force ;)

Even though not one of them has really made a half-compelling argument to support their claim.

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:45 PM
15 time all NBA team tied for 1st ever

12 defensive team tied for 1st ever

3rd most in 40+ and 50+ point games 133 and 26

2nd in 60+ games 5

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

4th all time leading scorer and still moving up

3rd all time playoff scoring not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

1 MVP

2 final's MVP

Enough said

Wow. Just wow.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 05:47 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

You really are going to stand behind "Kobe has had more individual success more then any player all time".

It's **** like this that leads people to believe I hate Kobe. How the hell can I not respond harshly to idiotic **** like this?


Kobe's got 3 major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He's been on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams (Defense and All-NBA). 8 more 2nd and 3rd teams.
15X All Star

In 17 Seasons

Jordan, for example, has ELEVEN major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He was on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams. Never a 2nd or 3rd.
14X All Star

He did that all in 15 seasons. That's amazing.


Get out of here. Those ELEVEN major awards for Jordan end the conversation immediately. Game over.

Kobe has more all nba 1st team and more 1st defensive teams then jordan. What are jordan 11 awards?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 05:49 PM
He wins the poll, for sure. All the Kobephiles came out in full force ;)

Even though not one of them has really made a half-compelling argument to support their claim.

Except this site is 75 percent Lebron fans. So your buddies voted Kobe for the 1000 reasons why he deserved more than one. Enough with your Kobe hate!

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 05:49 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Prove me wrong on any one of those stats I posted. Since its not an opinion it's fact.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 06:00 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

You really are going to stand behind "Kobe has had more individual success more then any player all time".

It's **** like this that leads people to believe I hate Kobe. How the hell can I not respond harshly to idiotic **** like this?


Kobe's got 3 major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He's been on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams (Defense and All-NBA). 8 more 2nd and 3rd teams.
15X All Star

In 17 Seasons

Jordan, for example, has ELEVEN major awards (Finals MVPs, MVPs)
He was on 20 First-Team All-NBA Teams. Never a 2nd or 3rd.
14X All Star

He did that all in 15 seasons. That's amazing.


Get out of here. Those ELEVEN major awards for Jordan end the conversation immediately. Game over.

Jordan has 10 1st 1 second all nba. Kobe tied for most 1st teams ever with Malone and tied for 1st in overall all nba team awards with KAJ. Y u never mention the 11 awards. Kobe only 3? Keep trolling.

Chronz
08-13-2013, 06:27 PM
Except this site is 75 percent Lebron fans. So your buddies voted Kobe for the 1000 reasons why he deserved more than one. Enough with your Kobe hate!

proof?

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 06:27 PM
Prove me wrong on any one of those stats I posted. Since its not an opinion it's fact.

you claimed Kobe has more awards and accolades than any player in history, and that is false.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 06:28 PM
proof?

like any post he has ever made, he doesn't have any.

valade16
08-13-2013, 06:37 PM
Kobe has more all nba 1st team and more 1st defensive teams then jordan. What are jordan 11 awards?

5 MVPs and 6 Finals MVPs. Those alone are more than Kobe has ever accomplished by himself.

ManRam
08-13-2013, 06:38 PM
Kobe has more all nba 1st team and more 1st defensive teams then jordan. What are jordan 11 awards?

He has FIVE MVPs and SIX Finals MVPs.

I don't care about your random list of accomplishments, it isn't going to top that in terms of individual accolades. Those are the ULTIMATE individual accolades

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 06:48 PM
Prove me wrong on any one of those stats I posted. Since its not an opinion it's fact.

No one is arguing that those are facts. However, you said earlier that your interpretation of those facts (they make Kobe the most accomplished and awarded player) was somehow fact, not opinion.

That's ridiculous.

GREATNESS ONE
08-13-2013, 06:53 PM
05 Nash MVP 11 asst 3 reb 15 pts
Kobe 6 asst 6 reb 27 pts

06 Nash MVP 10 asst 4 reb 18 pts
Kobe 4 asst 5 reb 35 pts

07 Dirk MVP 3 asst 8 reb 24 pts
Kobe 5 asst 5 reb 31 pts

Kobe should have 4 MVP's easily

/Thread

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 07:02 PM
proof?

Do your eyes work?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 07:04 PM
like any post he has ever made, he doesn't have any.

I find it funny that you guys just proved my point. 2 Lebron fans coming after me right away.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 07:04 PM
He has FIVE MVPs and SIX Finals MVPs.

I don't care about your random list of accomplishments, it isn't going to top that in terms of individual accolades. Those are the ULTIMATE individual accolades

I don't care that u only care about those awards. Kobe's individual awards and accomplishments list tops any player. He is still playing and will climb the all time scoring list pass jordan for sure and all time playoff scoring list to 1st all time. This is not a opinion I posted my facts so show me a better individual list of accomplishments.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 08:02 PM
How is that possibly proof?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 08:03 PM
How is that possibly proof?

Shows how Lebron fans are overflowing in here.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 08:04 PM
Kobe may pass MJ in scoring, and it take a bunch of extra games to do it. Fact is there are other players with more awards and accolades. Sitting here acting like there isn't just makes you seem uneducated about the sport.

JusDBasics
08-13-2013, 08:15 PM
Kobe definitely got robbed in 06. 35, 5 and 5 with 2 steals. Shooting a respectable 45% from the field should have easily got him the award. I also believe he coulda also won it in 03 and 07. Kobe should have at least 2-3 MVP's.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 08:21 PM
LeBron fans are overflowing? Quick lesson..... There are about 20 times as many Laker Nd NY fans here than any other fan base. Now, when you consider there are also a ton of non-biased fans here, who simply understand they are watching the best player since MJ in Bron (these people you call Bron lovers, despite them simply being rational, educated fans), you and your Kobe posse can overreact and take it how you like, while +1'ing and this'ing each other off. This site is swimming in Laker fans. Thank god many of them actually realize that while Kobe was great, if Bron hasn't passed him yet, the clock is ticking, and the timer is going to ring shortly. To many, he is already better all time. To you, that is a Kobe hater and Bron lover. I expect no rational response, talking with you is like talking to a woman. I can't win, because I have that pesty habit of needing to make sense in an argument.

valade16
08-13-2013, 08:28 PM
I don't care that u only care about those awards. Kobe's individual awards and accomplishments list tops any player. He is still playing and will climb the all time scoring list pass jordan for sure and all time playoff scoring list to 1st all time. This is not a opinion I posted my facts so show me a better individual list of accomplishments.

No, it doesn't. The only thing you've proven so far is you're legally unable to drink...

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 08:31 PM
LeBron fans are overflowing? Quick lesson..... There are about 20 times as many Laker Nd NY fans here than any other fan base. Now, when you consider there are also a ton of non-biased fans here, who simply understand they are watching the best player since MJ in Bron (these people you call Bron lovers, despite them simply being rational, educated fans), you and your Kobe posse can overreact and take it how you like, while +1'ing and this'ing each other off. This site is swimming in Laker fans. Thank god many of them actually realize that while Kobe was great, if Bron hasn't passed him yet, the clock is ticking, and the timer is going to ring shortly. To many, he is already better all time. To you, that is a Kobe hater and Bron lover. I expect no rational response, talking with you is like talking to a woman. I can't win, because I have that pesty habit of needing to make sense in an argument.

I don't know what site you're posting on, but here on PSD, Lebron is god. Lol @ TONS of unbiased fans. I would like to see a list of them. The only people I see put Lebron over Kobe and into the top ten are all PSD users. In the real world not many would dare put Lebron over Kobe at this stage. Your love for your false idol Lebron is borderline disgusting.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 08:33 PM
LeBron fans are overflowing? Quick lesson..... There are about 20 times as many Laker Nd NY fans here than any other fan base. Now, when you consider there are also a ton of non-biased fans here, who simply understand they are watching the best player since MJ in Bron (these people you call Bron lovers, despite them simply being rational, educated fans), you and your Kobe posse can overreact and take it how you like, while +1'ing and this'ing each other off. This site is swimming in Laker fans. Thank god many of them actually realize that while Kobe was great, if Bron hasn't passed him yet, the clock is ticking, and the timer is going to ring shortly. To many, he is already better all time. To you, that is a Kobe hater and Bron lover. I expect no rational response, talking with you is like talking to a woman. I can't win, because I have that pesty habit of needing to make sense in an argument.


Can you please remove the bolded? If PSD doesn't allow racist comments, it shouldn't allow mysoginist remarks either. Without a doubt the two smartest, most rational people I know are women who could shred most of yours and my arguments to shreds most of the time and without a doubt the two least rational people I know are men.

So, please remove that line. It is unnecessary and offensive.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 08:34 PM
Kobe definitely got robbed in 06. 35, 5 and 5 with 2 steals. Shooting a respectable 45% from the field should have easily got him the award. I also believe he coulda also won it in 03 and 07. Kobe should have at least 2-3 MVP's.

Precisely. This site is filled with Lebron homers, so anything you say positive about Kobe will be shot down. Then they will try to convince you that Lebron is God and all shall bow down to him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 08:37 PM
LeBron fans are overflowing? Quick lesson..... There are about 20 times as many Laker Nd NY fans here than any other fan base. Now, when you consider there are also a ton of non-biased fans here, who simply understand they are watching the best player since MJ in Bron (these people you call Bron lovers, despite them simply being rational, educated fans), you and your Kobe posse can overreact and take it how you like, while +1'ing and this'ing each other off. This site is swimming in Laker fans. Thank god many of them actually realize that while Kobe was great, if Bron hasn't passed him yet, the clock is ticking, and the timer is going to ring shortly. To many, he is already better all time. To you, that is a Kobe hater and Bron lover. I expect no rational response, talking with you is like talking to a woman. I can't win, because I have that pesty habit of needing to make sense in an argument.

Way to be offensive MOD GOD.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 09:08 PM
Kobe may pass MJ in scoring, and it take a bunch of extra games to do it. Fact is there are other players with more awards and accolades. Sitting here acting like there isn't just makes you seem uneducated about the sport.

Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

Shlumpledink
08-13-2013, 09:15 PM
Hakeem MVP years:
88-89 24.8/13.5/1.8/3.4/2.6 5th in voting. Winner: Magic Johnson 22.5/7.9/12.8/.3/1.8
89-90 24.3/14.0/2.9/4.6/2.1 7th in voting winner: Magic Johnson 22.3/6.9/11.5/.4/1.7
92-93 26.1/13/3.5/4.2/1.8 2nd in voting winner: Charles Barkley 25.6/12.2/5.1/1/1.6
93-94 27.3/11.9/3.7/1.6 winner : Hakeem Olajuwon

Did hakeem really improve over his 92-93 season? Or were the voters just making up for their previous mistakes?
The only reason why hakeem doesn't win is because of team success. Hakeem had great offensive numbers and rebounding numbers, but was phenomenal defensively. The teams of the players that won were much deeper and better coached, it seems unfair to purely go by record to evaluate the two players in those scenarios.

cmellofan15
08-13-2013, 09:24 PM
I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone thinks Kobe should have won that MVP in 05-06. If anyone got one taken from them that year it was Dirk. I enjoy using stats for an argument, but using PPG, SPG, and FG% for a reliable argument? The logic there is more hilarious than the basis of the argument! But here's some stats if you want them.

PER:

Kobe: 28.0
Dirk: 28.1

pretty even so far

TS%:

Dirk: .589
Kobe: .559

eFG%:

Dirk: .515
Kobe: .491

RAPM: (hint: Kobe is notorious for having very low def. per 100 ratings, wonder why?)

Dirk: Offense-4.8 /Defense-1.8 /Off.+Def.-6.5
Kobe: Offense-6.8 /Defense-(-)1.2 /Off+Def.-5.7

WS:

Dirk: 17.7
Kobe: 15.3

and then add on to the fact that the Mavericks were 10 GAMES in front of the Lakers that year, it's pretty obvious why Kobe would not be MVP. And if you wanna argue that just give me another instance where the arguable 2nd or 3rd best player in the league has ever won an MVP on a 7th seed team. and please don't give me that "well if he was in the East then blah blah blah..." because then he would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the 5th seed in the east.

amos1er
08-13-2013, 09:33 PM
He has FIVE MVPs and SIX Finals MVPs.

I don't care about your random list of accomplishments, it isn't going to top that in terms of individual accolades. Those are the ULTIMATE individual accolades

Of course all the Lebron prognosticators hail the regular season MVP award as an "ULTIMATE" individual accomplishment. LMAO How can an award where members of the media decide the criteria be attributed to an individual accomplishment. Especially when the criteria changes from year to year and so many better candidates have been passed up over the years. Even you have to agree that they have chosen the wrong guy on more than one occasion. That alone should disqualify any credibility the award has. I can take five players from any given season and make a case as to why any one of them deserves it. Way to subjective IMO. If they had a set of criteria and stuck to it when selecting an MVP and had consistency in choosing the best candidates in terms of this criteria... Then the award would have a lot more credibility IMO.

amos1er
08-13-2013, 09:35 PM
I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone thinks Kobe should have won that MVP in 05-06. If anyone got one taken from them that year it was Dirk. I enjoy using stats for an argument, but using PPG, SPG, and FG% for a reliable argument? The logic there is more hilarious than the basis of the argument! But here's some stats if you want them.

PER:

Kobe: 28.0
Dirk: 28.1

pretty even so far

TS%:

Dirk: .589
Kobe: .559

eFG%:

Dirk: .515
Kobe: .491

RAPM: (hint: Kobe is notorious for having very low def. per 100 ratings, wonder why?)

Dirk: Offense-4.8 /Defense-1.8 /Off.+Def.-6.5
Kobe: Offense-6.8 /Defense-(-)1.2 /Off+Def.-5.7

WS:

Dirk: 17.7
Kobe: 15.3

and then add on to the fact that the Mavericks were 10 GAMES in front of the Lakers that year, it's pretty obvious why Kobe would not be MVP. And if you wanna argue that just give me another instance where the arguable 2nd or 3rd best player in the league has ever won an MVP on a 7th seed team. and please don't give me that "well if he was in the East then blah blah blah..." because then he would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the 5th seed in the east.

So your entire argument is based of some random advances stats you chose. lol Can you provide any legit reasoning as to why those should be taken into consideration above all else or are we just taking your word for it.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 09:50 PM
I don't know what site you're posting on, but here on PSD, Lebron is god. Lol @ TONS of unbiased fans. I would like to see a list of them. The only people I see put Lebron over Kobe and into the top ten are all PSD users. In the real world not many would dare put Lebron over Kobe at this stage. Your love for your false idol Lebron is borderline disgusting.

We can talk again when you come out of "delusional" world.

Peace.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 09:50 PM
Can you please remove the bolded? If PSD doesn't allow racist comments, it shouldn't allow mysoginist remarks either. Without a doubt the two smartest, most rational people I know are women who could shred most of yours and my arguments to shreds most of the time and without a doubt the two least rational people I know are men.

So, please remove that line. It is unnecessary and offensive.

you have obviously never been married. Report it if it bothers you bud.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 09:51 PM
Of course all the Lebron prognosticators hail the regular season MVP award as an "ULTIMATE" individual accomplishment. LMAO How can an award where members of the media decide the criteria be attributed to an individual accomplishment. Especially when the criteria changes from year to year and so many better candidates have been passed up over the years. Even you have to agree that they have chosen the wrong guy on more than one occasion. That alone should disqualify any credibility the award has. I can take five players from any given season and make a case as to why any one of them deserves it. Way to subjective IMO. If they had a set of criteria and stuck to it when selecting an MVP and had consistency in choosing the best candidates in terms of this criteria... Then the award would have a lot more credibility IMO.

Lebron fans will never let go of their precious MVP awards. The MVP is a travesty.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-13-2013, 09:53 PM
We can talk again when you come out of "delusional" world.

Peace.
You're in a terrible mood today I see.

you have obviously never been married. Report it if it bothers you bud.Just because you had a run in with a demon woman doesn't mean you can generalize them all.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 09:55 PM
Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

Jordan crushes him. Jabbar, Duncan, and soon to be LeBron are all more accomplished.

The reason Kobe has a case at top 10? Longevity. Because his pure peak and dominance during his peak don't stack up at all dude. Not to the greatest of the great.

bucketss
08-13-2013, 09:58 PM
honestly is illusionist good for anything other than one liners, and derailing threads? this is getting ridiculous now.

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 10:22 PM
Jordan crushes him. Jabbar, Duncan, and soon to be LeBron are all more accomplished.

The reason Kobe has a case at top 10? Longevity. Because his pure peak and dominance during his peak don't stack up at all dude. Not to the greatest of the great.

Not one of those players u named have more assist, all nba 1st teams, all defensive teams, points in a single game, all star MVP's, most 3 in a single game, and beats them in other category's individually. Example more finals appearance then Duncan and jordan but not KAJ.

KAJ is the only guy that u can argue but kobe can pass him in more category's like all time playoff scoring list, all star list, ect. Were talking about single accomplishments here. Crush don't explain anything dude.

cmellofan15
08-13-2013, 10:41 PM
So your entire argument is based of some random advances stats you chose. lol Can you provide any legit reasoning as to why those should be taken into consideration above all else or are we just taking your word for it.

umm.. I don't know. maybe the fact that Dirk was a more efficient scorer, defender, and overall player should attest to my claim that he was the overall better player. Those stats show exactly that. do you want the formulas for the stats or any more reasoning? I feel like the proof is pretty much there but maybe I can dumb it down a little more for you if you still need some "legit reasoning". I can probably simplify my reasoning a little more to cater to those, such as yourself, who don't quite understand these things. So here's my simplified claim, I'll even bold the text for you.

Dirk Nowitzki, of the Dallas Mavericks had a better argument to be the Most Valuable Player of the National Basketball Association in the years of 2005-2006 than Kobe Bryant because as statistics show, the better player on the better team usually wins this award. Seeing as how this is usually the criteria, Dirk Nowitzki outperformed Kobe Bryant and the Dallas Mavericks outperformed the Los Angeles Lakers leading to my claim that Dirk was more deserving

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 11:07 PM
umm.. I don't know. maybe the fact that Dirk was a more efficient scorer, defender, and overall player should attest to my claim that he was the overall better player. Those stats show exactly that. do you want the formulas for the stats or any more reasoning? I feel like the proof is pretty much there but maybe I can dumb it down a little more for you if you still need some "legit reasoning". I can probably simplify my reasoning a little more to cater to those, such as yourself, who don't quite understand these things. So here's my simplified claim, I'll even bold the text for you.

Dirk Nowitzki, of the Dallas Mavericks had a better argument to be the Most Valuable Player of the National Basketball Association in the years of 2005-2006 than Kobe Bryant because as statistics show, the better player on the better team usually wins this award. Seeing as how this is usually the criteria, Dirk Nowitzki outperformed Kobe Bryant and the Dallas Mavericks outperformed the Los Angeles Lakers leading to my claim that Dirk was more deserving

Kobe was on the first all defensive team. Dirk didnt make the team at all. So prove dirk was a better defender then a first team defender.

cmellofan15
08-13-2013, 11:15 PM
Kobe was on the first all defensive team. Dirk didnt make the team at all. So prove dirk was a better defender then a first team defender.

Kobe has been placed on the All NBA Defensive Team 12 times. would you like me to explain why he's one of the most overrated defenders of all time?

amos1er
08-13-2013, 11:17 PM
umm.. I don't know. maybe the fact that Dirk was a more efficient scorer, defender, and overall player should attest to my claim that he was the overall better player. Those stats show exactly that. do you want the formulas for the stats or any more reasoning? I feel like the proof is pretty much there but maybe I can dumb it down a little more for you if you still need some "legit reasoning". I can probably simplify my reasoning a little more to cater to those, such as yourself, who don't quite understand these things. So here's my simplified claim, I'll even bold the text for you.

I asked you one simple question and all I get is a bunch of smart *** holier than though nonsense. On top of that you still couldn't even answer as to why you chose those specific metrics. How old are you btw?


Dirk Nowitzki, of the Dallas Mavericks had a better argument to be the Most Valuable Player of the National Basketball Association in the years of 2005-2006 than Kobe Bryant because as statistics show, the better player on the better team usually wins this award. Seeing as how this is usually the criteria, Dirk Nowitzki outperformed Kobe Bryant and the Dallas Mavericks outperformed the Los Angeles Lakers leading to my claim that Dirk was more deserving

So you are saying that the award consistently goes to the best player on the best team? I can easily find many examples which contradict that theory. You say that Dirk was the better player yet again, only this time you use a generalized statement with nothing other than your own opinion to back it up. Again not answering my original question of why the metrics you showed earlier should be the main criteria in choosing league MVP. Can you even show any consistency in the metrics you chose in comparison to other MVP winners throughout the years? That would be a good start in showing that they actually hold water or at least offer more justification than your original approach of "because I say so". Just a little tip for ya there pal. ;)

Oh and btw... Dirk better than Kobe on defense??? Come on now. Really?!? lol

Bostonjorge
08-13-2013, 11:18 PM
Kobe has been placed on the All NBA Defensive Team 12 times. would you like me to explain why he's one of the most overrated defenders of all time?

Please explain why they got it wrong 12 times.

amos1er
08-13-2013, 11:19 PM
Kobe has been placed on the All NBA Defensive Team 12 times. would you like me to explain why he's one of the most overrated defenders of all time?

You just claimed Dirk to be a better defender than Kobe. I don't think any of us are really taking analysis you might have about an individual players defensive prowess all that seriously from this point on. lulz.

cmellofan15
08-13-2013, 11:21 PM
You just claimed Dirk to be a better defender than Kobe. I don't think any of us are really taking analysis you might have about an individual players defensive prowess all that seriously from this point on. lulz.

Ohh, I'm sorry. do you have any evidence against it or are you just going to keep posting without any basis besides your undying love for Kobe?

amos1er
08-13-2013, 11:23 PM
Please explain why they got it wrong 12 times.

Lol... That guy is a real hoot.

amos1er
08-13-2013, 11:25 PM
Ohh, I'm sorry. do you have any evidence against it or are you just going to keep posting without any basis besides your undying love for Kobe?

I'm not the one claiming that I can debunk all 12 of Kobe's Defensive Team selections. Why should I now have to provide anything? The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 11:30 PM
Not one of those players u named have more assist, all nba 1st teams, all defensive teams, points in a single game, all star MVP's, most 3 in a single game, and beats them in other category's individually. Example more finals appearance then Duncan and jordan but not KAJ.

KAJ is the only guy that u can argue but kobe can pass him in more category's like all time playoff scoring list, all star list, ect. Were talking about single accomplishments here. Crush don't explain anything dude.

They are all more accomplished, individually. If you want to set some weird criteria to fit you point, I can't help you bud.

cmellofan15
08-13-2013, 11:30 PM
I asked you one simple question and all I get is a bunch of smart *** holier than though nonsense. On top of that you still couldn't even answer as to why you chose those specific metrics. How old are you btw?

the first thing I said was that the stats proved that he was more efficient as a scorer and a defender. would you like me to go back and bold those two sentences?




So you are saying that the award consistently goes to the best player on the best team? I can easily find many examples which contradict that theory. You say that Dirk was the better player yet again, only this time you use a generalized statement with nothing other than your own opinion to back it up. Again not answering my original question of why the metrics you showed earlier should be the main criteria in choosing league MVP. Can you even show any consistency in the metrics you chose in comparison to other MVP winners throughout the years? That would be a good start in showing that they actually hold water or at least offer more justification than your original approach of "because I say so". Just a little tip for ya there pal. ;)

Oh and btw... Dirk better than Kobe on defense??? Come on now. Really?!? lol

We let's see the last two years Lebron has been the league's most valuable player and...

a. He's led the league in win shares both years
b. He's led the league in PER both years
c. He's been 2nd and 9th in eFG%
d. he's led the league in RAPM both years
e. his team has led their conference in wins both years

would you like more examples? sorry for assuming you would know how those stats would reflect a players performance. I should have known better.

and nowhere did I claim that Dirk was the best player on the best team. I said he was a better player on a better team and I said that's who the award is "USUALLY" awarded to (there have been some exceptions ie: Steve Nash, Derrick Rose). I'll try to use more bold next time.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2013, 11:32 PM
Kobe has been placed on the All NBA Defensive Team 12 times. would you like me to explain why he's one of the most overrated defenders of all time?

Kobephiles will absolutely never be able to understand your argument. Seriously.

The funny thing? Bron will be getting the same treatment. He will be getting torched at age 35, and because of his prior reputation, will be collecting all defensive teams. And then Kobe fans will come out of the woodworks to point out he sucks on defense, while ingnoring that Kobe has been listed on the team while sucking for a few years now.

amos1er
08-13-2013, 11:58 PM
the first thing I said was that the stats proved that he was more efficient as a scorer and a defender. would you like me to go back and bold those two sentences?

So now a single stat can prove that a player is a better defender? lol Never mind then, guess the coaches who select the All NBA Defensive Team award were wrong after all. :rolleyes:

Better scorer??? Didn't Kobe average 35.4 ppg. :eyebrow:

I also seem to recall Kobe absolutely destroying the Mavs in nearly all their regular season matchups that year... including out performing Dirk individually and dropping 62 in three quarters against them. All with a significantly weaker squad.



We let's see the last two years Lebron has been the league's most valuable player and...

a. He's led the league in win shares both years
b. He's led the league in PER both years
c. He's been 2nd and 9th in eFG%
d. he's led the league in RAPM both years
e. his team has led their conference in wins both years

So you managed to provide one example. Nice. I could easily argue that to be an outlier though. Especially considering their have been 57 regular season MVP award winners throughout the history of the NBA.


would you like more examples? sorry for assuming you would know how those stats would reflect a players performance. I should have known better.

Rule of thumb... Assume nothing.

As for your offer to provide more examples, thats entirely up to you. You are the one attempting to validate your little theory. But I would agree the more the merrier or at the very least show some sort of trend.


and nowhere did I claim that Dirk was the best player on the best team. I said he was a better player on a better team and I said that's who the award is "USUALLY" awarded to (there have been some exceptions ie: Steve Nash, Derrick Rose). I'll try to use more bold next time.

Thats exactly the point I am making. There are too many of these "exceptions" to validate any sort of consistency in the awards criteria. Therefore making it impossible to argue without a doubt that one player deserves the award more over the other. I have said many time that in any given season (given the inconsistencies we have seen in selections over the years) one can argue a case for any given top five players in the league and still have a valid argument. Thats precisely why I feel the award itself has very little credibility.

cmellofan15
08-14-2013, 12:21 AM
So now a single stat can prove that a player is a better defender? lol Never mind then, guess the coaches who select the All NBA Defensive Team award were wrong after all. :rolleyes:

Better scorer??? Didn't Kobe average 35.4 ppg. :eyebrow:

Did he average that 35.4 ppg more efficiently? Would you claim Allen Iverson of that year to be a better scorer than Kevin Durant or LeBron were this year? Having a nice and high PPG average is nice but it doesn't make Melo a better scorer than Durant.


I also seem to recall Kobe absolutely destroying the Mavs in nearly all their regular season matchups that year... including out performing Dirk individually and dropping 62 in three quarters against them. All with a significantly weaker squad.

The "destroyed" them in one game, won by three in another, and lost the other by two. I'm not seeing how this relates to the argument.. does the winner of the h2h matchup deserve to be MVP?... I don't think that's what you're arguing so I'm just going to consider that comment as irrelevant. especially when you're complaining about trash teams like Dirk had some star studded supporting cast. anyways..





So you managed to provide one example. Nice. I could easily argue that to be an outlier though. Especially considering their have been 57 regular season MVP award winners throughout the history of the NBA.

the damn near unanimous MVP LeBron James was my example for a reason. because there were no arguments or quarrels regarding the legitimacy of those two MVP titles.


Rule of thumb... Assume nothing.

point taken.


As for your offer to provide more examples, thats entirely up to you. You are the one attempting to validate your little theory. But I would agree the more the merrier or at the very least show some sort of trend.

I'll see what I can do.


Thats exactly the point I am making. There are too many of these "exceptions" to validate any sort of consistency in the awards criteria. Therefore making it impossible to argue without a doubt that one player deserves the award more over the other. I have said many time that in any given season (given the inconsistencies we have seen in selections over the years) one can argue a case for any given top five players in the league and still have a valid argument. Thats precisely why I feel the award itself has very little credibility.

Well that is a respectable opinion you have. but here's the thing. there has ALWAYS been one consistency with the MVP award which I know you can recognize without me dropping stats and metrics. The person who wins will always be on one of the best teams in his respective conference. That is a major reason why I cannot agree with anyone who believes that Kobe was deserving of the award this year. He didn't perform leaps and bounds better than any of the top 5 that year and on top of that he didn't qualify in the most consistent criteria that the MVP award has.

IKnowHoops
08-14-2013, 12:37 AM
Agreed. What happened to Kobe in 2006 is a true example of what a sham the MVP award really is.
You do realize that the year kobe won, lebron was ahead of him in every statistical category. How was lebron not robbed?

stawka
08-14-2013, 12:42 AM
You do realize that the year kobe won, lebron was ahead of him in every statistical category. How was lebron not robbed?

KoZ KoBee HaZ 5 RiNGz BRo

#PSDlogic

WadeKobe
08-14-2013, 01:03 AM
Can we stop, please, stop using PPG? It is a horrible stat which means very close to nothing.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=920

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1117

So, seriously. Can we stop using PPG so much? PPG doesn't make you a great scorer.

amos1er
08-14-2013, 01:22 AM
Did he average that 35.4 ppg more efficiently? Would you claim Allen Iverson of that year to be a better scorer than Kevin Durant or LeBron were this year? Having a nice and high PPG average is nice but it doesn't make Melo a better scorer than Durant.

Dirk had him beat out in TS% by a whooping 3%. Hardly enough to make a case over, especially considering Kobe had him beat in ppg by nine points. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that Dirk's TS% would have stayed the same or increased with that many more shot attempts?

No way would I compare Iverson to anyone elite. He was far less efficient that Bryant and any of the all time greats. Truly a volume shooter.

The MVP award to me is about being the most valuable player to a team. Do you really believe that if you put Dirk on the 2006 Lakers in place of Bryant that they would crack 40 wins with that roster? Contrarily, if you put Kobe on the Mavs in place of Dirk, wouldn't you think they would be the favorites to win it all? Kobe won titles years later on less talented teams IMO. Other than Gasol, The Lakers were nothing really to write home about. Dirks teams were far better all around.


The "destroyed" them in one game, won by three in another, and lost the other by two. I'm not seeing how this relates to the argument.. does the winner of the h2h matchup deserve to be MVP?... I don't think that's what you're arguing so I'm just going to consider that comment as irrelevant. especially when you're complaining about trash teams like Dirk had some star studded supporting cast. anyways..

I'll tell you the problem I had with the stats you provided earlier on...

First, Dirk is a PF and Kobe a SG. That alone makes comparing advanced stats very difficult. Naturally Dirks TS% should be higher as he plays closer to the basket and as I pointed out earlier, attempted far less shots than Bryant. Dirk was responsible for less offensive production than Kobe and simply did not have the offensive arsenal Kobe had in order to effectively attempt that many field goals and hit at as efficient of a clip IMO. Opposing defenses would likely crush Dirk if the team relied on him that heavily to lift that heavy of an offensive burden, while Kobe would crush most defensive adjustments opposing teams through at him that year and it showed in that he was able to average 35.4 ppg on a respectable efficiency rate... First time anyone had surpassed 35 ppg in just about 20 years and no one including Bryant himself has been able to do it again. Factor in less possessions, hand checking, and zone defense and you have to be impressed that he was able to average 35.4 ppg in this era on an efficient clip, while taking a D-League caliber team to a seven seed that had no business even sniffing the playoffs and would likely be lottery bound under the leadership of nearly every other player in the league at the time.

Secondly, PER does not factor in defense, and also gives an edge to the player positioned closer to the basket in that they can collect more rebounds. Kobe as an SG is not in a passing role primarily and therefore can't make up the rebounding disparity in assists... Especially in the triangle offense which has no true passing guard.

efg% is a less of an effective stat than TS%, so I don't even see the need to bring it up when you already used TS%. The difference in efg% was about 2% either way. Not even worth an argument IMO especially from what I already explained above.

WS is also not very telling considering Kobe was on a far weaker squad. A far more telling factor to me is whether or not Dirk could have lead the 2006 Lakers to equal or more wins. It is a hypothetical situation after all and very difficult to prove I admit, but I seriously doubt Dirk would have been able to do so. Especially considering how much more effective Kobe was when he had better squads in the same conference from 2008 till now compared to Dirk. Kobe's Lakers placed higher every single year in the regular season. Exception being 2011 of course where Kobe's knees gave out and Dirk just went on a tear... Of course that was all in the post season and the MVP is a regular season award.

As far as RAPM... Once again, very hard to compare a SG to a PF and matchups also come into play. Often times Kobe was responsible for guarding the opposing teams best player and carry the team offensivley, while Dirk did not have that burden due to his more well rounded supporting cast.


the damn near unanimous MVP LeBron James was my example for a reason. because there were no arguments or quarrels regarding the legitimacy of those two MVP titles.

Again, one example can be attributed to an outlier. Too many inconsistencies over the years to pin point a consistent statistical measuring bar.


Well that is a respectable opinion you have. but here's the thing. there has ALWAYS been one consistency with the MVP award which I know you can recognize without me dropping stats and metrics. The person who wins will always be on one of the best teams in his respective conference. That is a major reason why I cannot agree with anyone who believes that Kobe was deserving of the award this year. He didn't perform leaps and bounds better than any of the top 5 that year and on top of that he didn't qualify in the most consistent criteria that the MVP award has.

Kareem won the award in 1976 even though the Lakers only won 40 games that year. If they lowered a single standard for Kareem, they could easily justify doing it for Kobe. The bar had been set.

amos1er
08-14-2013, 01:24 AM
You do realize that the year kobe won, lebron was ahead of him in every statistical category. How was lebron not robbed?

45 wins in the east is the same as being below .500 in the west. Lebron's team in 2008 was better than what Kobe had to work with in 2006. He definitely underachieved that year.

WadeKobe
08-14-2013, 01:26 AM
Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

Maybe I have been stuck in the world of academia and peer review for too long, but I just cannot imagine a world other than high school where someone would really believe you have proven anything or that you have supplied an argument that needs proven "wrong".

You have no established methodology but have loaded the deck in your favor. You have chosen a list of "accomplishments", where Kobe ranks highly in many categories or lists, usually involving gross points and high totals of gross points.

You have chosen arbitrary end points. That is, you have used categories (40 and 50 points) but not others (20). You have offered these as though high point totals are "accomplished", even though, if you check my links you would know, individual gross points have almost no correlation to winning and have little marginal value, meaning that extremely high totals are not that much more valuable -- as opposed to other categories which both correlate higher to winning and have some stronger marginal value.

You left out lower point totals. You left out steals. Blocks. Rebounds.

You also changed your criteria often. You would go from "most of x" to "more of y than..." So, you have no consistency. You also provide no reason why certain placements are good cutoff points for recognizing such a ranking on any list.

Your argument simply has no teeth. You have offered us an arbitrary list of accomplishments without showing why those accomplishments are valuable. You have left out (based upon your lack of criteria and your range of categories) thousands of other possible lists and achievements.

Then, you have given us an interpretation of what these lists mean. That is, based upon these arbitrary accomplishments, Kobe has more accomplishments than any other player.

What's worse, you tell us that this interpretation of the arbitrary information is fact, not opinion, even though sub a personal interpretation of arbitrary data is, by definition, opinion, not fact.

Then, when challenged that your opinion is not fact, you point is back to your arbitrary list of facts and ask them to be disproved, somehow imagining this as a defense of your interpretation.

Sorry, if you can't see how bad this is, you simply shouldn't be discussing sports at all.

Bostonjorge
08-14-2013, 02:31 AM
Maybe I have been stuck in the world of academia and peer review for too long, but I just cannot imagine a world other than high school where someone would really believe you have proven anything or that you have supplied an argument that needs proven "wrong".

You have no established methodology but have loaded the deck in your favor. You have chosen a list of "accomplishments", where Kobe ranks highly in many categories or lists, usually involving gross points and high totals of gross points.

You have chosen arbitrary end points. That is, you have used categories (40 and 50 points) but not others (20). You have offered these as though high point totals are "accomplished", even though, if you check my links you would know, individual gross points have almost no correlation to winning and have little marginal value, meaning that extremely high totals are not that much more valuable -- as opposed to other categories which both correlate higher to winning and have some stronger marginal value.

You left out lower point totals. You left out steals. Blocks. Rebounds.

You also changed your criteria often. You would go from "most of x" to "more of y than..." So, you have no consistency. You also provide no reason why certain placements are good cutoff points for recognizing such a ranking on any list.

Your argument simply has no teeth. You have offered us an arbitrary list of accomplishments without showing why those accomplishments are valuable. You have left out (based upon your lack of criteria and your range of categories) thousands of other possible lists and achievements.

Then, you have given us an interpretation of what these lists mean. That is, based upon these arbitrary accomplishments, Kobe has more accomplishments than any other player.

What's worse, you tell us that this interpretation of the arbitrary information is fact, not opinion, even though sub a personal interpretation of arbitrary data is, by definition, opinion, not fact.

Then, when challenged that your opinion is not fact, you point is back to your arbitrary list of facts and ask them to be disproved, somehow imagining this as a defense of your interpretation.

Sorry, if you can't see how bad this is, you simply shouldn't be discussing sports at all.

I used stats or accomplishments where kobe is above or one of the best. I also said Kobe's not first at every catorgory like MVP's but in some he's at the very top. How is posting a list of his actual accomplishments no matter what order there are in take away from them. I'm not who keeps these records the actual league does. U say a lot of these records that are in the NBA record books don't matter cause of winning but the whole point was individual not team. Why would the league keep them?

Also I did put steal in my original list and he is not low your just uneducated. I left rebounds and blocks out because kobe is not an all time leader in rebounding or blocks. Your trying to discredit Kobe's scoring in single games or career by saying he had low games but that still won't take kobes name off the all time most points in game or all time leading scorer lists.

U said there are thousands of more invidual catorgorys but does the league keep them? Every single catorgory I posted their is an actual record for them by the league. I don't understand what u believe is opinion when I post his stats what he actually did and the numbers tell the story.

Also kobe has more accompaniments that are not recorded. First high school guard drafted and only back up to start in the all star game. It's easy to see that Kobe's career individually is top notch but u might just be to uneducated like when u said kobe has low numbers in steals so in your logic that's discredited what u said all together. Try again.

WadeKobe
08-14-2013, 02:36 AM
I used stats or accomplishments where kobe is above or one of the best. I also said Kobe's not first at every catorgory like MVP's but in some he's at the very top. How is posting a list of his actual accomplishments no matter what order there are in take away from them. I'm not who keeps these records the actual league does. U say a lot of these records that are in the NBA record books don't matter cause of winning but the whole point was individual not team. Why would the league keep them?

Also I did put steal in my original list and he is not low your just uneducated. I left rebounds and blocks out because kobe is not an all time leader in rebounding or blocks. Your trying to discredit Kobe's scoring in single games or career by saying he had low games but that still won't take kobes name off the all time list of most points in game or all time leading scorer.

U said there are thousands of more invidual catorgorys but does the league keep them? Every single catorgory I posted their is an actual record for them by the league. I don't understand what u believe is opinion when I post his stats what he actually did and the numbers tell the story.

Also kobe has more accompaniments that are not recorded. First high school guard drafted and only back up to start in the all star game. It's easy to see that Kobe's career individually is top notch but u might just be to uneducated like when u said kobe has low numbers in steals so in your logic that's discredited what u said all together. Try again.

:laugh:

Awesome. Lol

Bostonjorge
08-14-2013, 02:44 AM
Kobe is 15 on the all time steals list.

WadeKobe
08-14-2013, 02:47 AM
Kobe is 15 on the all time steals list.

You don't seem to understand my criticism. Don't worry about it. You basically proved to me that you simply are t qualified to have this conversation. It's okay.

el hidalgo
08-14-2013, 02:56 AM
You don't seem to understand my criticism. Don't worry about it. You basically proved to me that you simply are t qualified to have this conversation. It's okay.

dur hur. he doesnt have the brain capacity of a 10 year old dude, he's a troll...

Chronz
08-14-2013, 03:07 AM
Do your eyes work?
Do your eyes work?

I just used my eyes to copy your post so yea, they seem to be in working order. Good post tho, a truly riveting rebuttal chap

Chronz
08-14-2013, 03:22 AM
did he really just list first HS guard.... .are we seriously going to mention that with distinctions like MVPs

JordansBulls
08-14-2013, 07:35 AM
Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

Only players with 5+ Titles and multiple Finals MVP's

MJ = 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP's
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's.


1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)
Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
8. Duncan (4 Titles, 2 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
9. Hakeem (2 Titles, 1 League MVP, 2 Finals MVP's)
10.Kobe (4 Titles, 1 League MVP, 1 Finals MVP)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:

League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Lebron James
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone


Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Lebron James
2 - Kareem
2 - Bird
2 - Kobe
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone


Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
5 - Kobe
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt
2 - Lebron James

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan
Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.
Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.
Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well


http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html
TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.
MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.
Also consider
Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.
Bird won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1984 and 1986

Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59

In the Playoffs Kobe has 1 game of 50+ and 10 games of 40+ in 12 years. MJ got 8 games of 40+ in one postseason alone and he has more than double the 50+ point games and more than double the 40+ point games than any player in NBA History for the Playoffs (where everything matters)



Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
Kobe = 13
6. Shaq = 12
7. Hakeem = 11
Lebron = 11
9. Iverson = 10


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 88
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6

Here is Kobe's
KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points
NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)
NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE
NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE
NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE
NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not even close.
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40


The only thing Kobe really has on Jordan is the 3 pt range (which
Jordan was not bad at when he decided to take them, but onyl shot 1.66
a game on his career, Kobe is at 3.5), and arguably a better handle
(and Jordan had a really good handle, just wasn't and1 stuff). Jordan
is more creative in the lane, a better finisher, better mid-range and
in the post, the better passer, better offensive rebounder, shot
higher percentages, and turned it over less. Yes, Kobe is insane and
one of the best guys in the league right now...but better than
Mike? I think that's going too far.
And why is Jordan not getting credit for better shot selection?
Decision making isn't a skill?
Jordan 87-93 was pretty special, over 7 seasons he averaged 33.2 ppg
on 52% from the field. Again, that's a 7 season average. Looking at
points per 100 possessions, Jordan torches Kobe. Kobe has averaged 111
on his career (excluding this season), topping out at 114. Jordan
averaged 118 on his career (11 above the league average in those
seasons), hitting 125, and with 5 seasons at 123+. In 96 he was 24
pp100p better than the league average. Kobe at his best was 12 above
the league average (and 7 above league average on his career).
I don't know what world we are living in when better efficiency on a
larger volume, with better decision making, passing, less turnovers,
better offensive rebounding, post game, mid-range game, creating shots
and finishing in the lane, superior strength and athleticism, is all
outweighed by having more range. Personally, I think it is likely
Jordan could have developed similar range, but it would take away from
a deadly efficient, well balanced game. The differences in the skill
level aren't big, but all things considered, one player is definitely
better than the other.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime


NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00

-----

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.
And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp
PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.
First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.
Next off is the following:
Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 37 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 25.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.1 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.



MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 2 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 2
DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.4
Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.6
Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 5640 (220 games)
FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 46% Career Thus Far
Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.44
Playoff PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.6 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.4
Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.5

JordansBulls
08-14-2013, 07:35 AM
Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: KB, 80 total points
3rd Place: Tim, 75 total points


All of these players below lost with either Homecourt Advantage, Top seed, Better Record or Same RecordIf year is mentioned then it means they lost with HCA. Otherwise top seed or identical record is mentioned


Kareem (lost in ’72-73, ’73-74 (lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’76-77, ’80-81, ’85-86)
Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68 ((lost game 7 of the ECF at home vs Boston), ’68-69 ((lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’72-73)
Bill Russell (lost in 1958)
Magic Johnson (lost in ’80-81, ’85-86, ’89-90)
Larry Bird (lost in ’79-80, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85, ’87-88, '89-90, '90-91)
Shaq (lost in ’93-94, ’94-95, ’03-04, '04-05, '09-10)
Hakeem (lost in ’84-85, ’86-87, '98-99 same record and in 1993 with same record against Seattle)
Duncan (lost in ’00-01, ’03-04, '05-06, '08-09, '10-11, '11-12)
Oscar Robertson (lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74)
Jerry West (lost in ’68-69, ’72-73)
Dr J (lost in '81-82, '83-84)
Moses Malone (lost in '83-84, '88-89)
Karl Malone and John Stockton (lost in '97-98, '00-01, '94-95)
Garnett (lost in '02-03, '03-04)
Barkley (lost in '92-93, '94-95, '98-99)
Pippen (lost in '98-99 with identical record)
John Havlicek (lost in 1972-1973, '74-75 (same record)
Kobe (lost in '03-04 with HCA and '10-11 with HCA in a sweep)
Patrick Ewing (lost in '92-93, '94-95)
David Robinson (lost in '93-94, '94-95, '95-96)
Bob Pettit (lost in '58-59)
George Mikan (lost in '50-51)
Isiah Thomas (lost in '83-84)
Willis Reed (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Walt Frazier (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Rick Barry (lost in '75-76)
Adrian Dantley (lost in '83-84)
Gary Payton (lost in '93-94, '97-98)
Lebron (lost in '08-09, '09-10 with best record both years, '10-11)
Dwyane Wade (lost in '04-05, '10-11)
Kevin Durant (lost in '11-12, '12-13)

Now I might as missed some years for a few players, but I thought that was interesting. The only top 20 player Ever who never lost a series with either the Same Record, Higher Seed, Top Seed or Home court Advantage was Jordan. He was 25-0 in all with HCA and Top Seed along with same record and 24-0 in series with HCA



Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.
Would you?
I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?
I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 3x.



OWS

Offensive Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

Offensive Win Shares are credited to players based on Dean Oliver's Offensive Ratings

1.) Offensive Win Shares

1984-85 NBA 10.3 (2)
1986-87 NBA 11.9 (2)
1987-88 NBA 15.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 14.6 (1)
1989-90 NBA 14.7 (1)
1990-91 NBA 14.9 (1)
1991-92 NBA 12.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 12.0 (1)
1995-96 NBA 14.2 (1)
1996-97 NBA 13.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 10.4 (2)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 9x, and was 2nd 2x


WS
Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

A Win Share is worth one-third of a team win. Win Shares are assigned to players based on their offense, defense, and playing time.

Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


3.)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


Also for the playoffs MJ leads in:
Also Jordan has led in PER 7x, Win Shares 8x, OWS 8x, WSAA 8x in the season.
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59
-Most Offensive Win Shares Playoffs - 27.32
-Most Win Shares Playoffs - 39.76

Also MJ has led in PER 6x in the playoffs, OWS 6x and Win Shares 7x in the playoffs.
Kobe has yet to lead in any of them in any given season


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.
Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.

Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak

7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


4:59 mark --> Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&feature=related


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Magic Johnson says there is no debate.
"Michael is the greatest player ever, and Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be

Oh and you can see some of the numbers above.

Also here is some more.
I just have to point this out. MJ, at age 35 and his last with Chicago, had a PER of 25.2 (worst of his career) and actually played defense all the time.
Kobe, at age 28, had a PER of 26.1 (second best of his career) and is often accused of taking defensive possessions off.
Kobe has 1 MVP that he didn't deserve, 1 finals MVP's, zero DPOY's, 1 season with a PER over 27 (MJ has 9), etc.


Seriously how you compare a guy who had to do more than anyone in history to have his team win that much in MJ to someone in Kobe who only won because he had the best player in the league on his team?

To show the greatness of MJ he never has had a playoff series where he was outscored nor has he ever had a series where he averaged less than 26.6 ppg. Also MJ averaged over 31+ ppg in every playoffs after his rookie year (where he averaged 29.3 ppg in his rookie year)
Jordan's playoffs career average is: 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG / 2.1 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 49% FG / 28.59 PER (to put in retrospect Kobe has never even put those numbers up in any playoff year and Kobe's best PER in the playoffs was not as good as MJ's average)

JordansBulls
08-14-2013, 07:38 AM
Ok prove me wrong. Were is your proof on this. When u add up all his indvual awards and place's on every all time lists points, assist, ect also his single game accomplishments who can u compare. He's not on top of every category like MVP's but leads every other player in others. His place on the assist list is not high but higher then KAJ, Malone and jordan the 3 players who have more points then kobe.

Being educated on Kobe's accomplishements don't make me not educated. Some posters post false stats like saying jordan don't have any second all nba teams or many others but since it don't involve kobe u let the uneducated pass.

Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and was coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive and both are assasins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance in none of the seasons he has won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season. Now that doesn't mean he wasn't the best, but when you are comparing someone to other all time greats that always led their teams in overall production and most of the time the league that means a lot.

Gasol led the team in Win Shares and PER in the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010.

The Gasol vs Kobe is like the Nash vs Amare in 2005. Amare outproduced Nash, but Nash was the team's better player.

Same thing with Gasol and Kobe.

Difference here is this doesn't help Kobe's case when dealing with MJ, simply because whenever MJ won and whenever he was on the Bulls he led the team in PER and Win Shares in both the season and playoffs.


PLAYOFFS
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.26
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Chris Paul 25.48
7. Kevin Durant 24.98
8. Tim Duncan 24.91
9. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18
11. Dwight Howard 23.40
12. Tracy McGrady 23.40
13. Dolph Schayes* 23.29
14. Dwyane Wade 23.26
15. Jerry West* 23.06


REGULAR SEASON
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.65
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.55
7. Dwyane Wade 25.53
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.73
10. Neil Johnston* 24.69


MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Tim Duncan 33.08
4. Magic Johnson* 32.63
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
6. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
7. LeBron James 29.54
8. Kobe Bryant 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Larry Bird* 24.83
13. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
14. Karl Malone* 22.99
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.60
16. Dirk Nowitzki 22.52
17. John Stockton* 21.35
18. Kevin McHale* 20.67
19. Chauncey Billups 20.60
20. Horace Grant 20.00
21. Reggie Miller* 19.90
22. Charles Barkley* 19.52
23. John Havlicek* 19.27
24. Dwyane Wade 18.60
25. Robert Horry 18.23



MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player

MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player

MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player

Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player

1. Michael Jordan* .2505
2. David Robinson* .2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .2480
4. Chris Paul .2439
5. Neil Johnston* .2413
6. LeBron James .2412
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2284
8. Magic Johnson* .2249
9. Charles Barkley* .2163
10. Jerry West* .2134




MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* .2553
2. George Mikan* .2541
3. LeBron James .2382
4. Magic Johnson* .2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki .2047
6. Kevin Durant .2043
7. Jerry West* .2031
8. Wilt Chamberlain* .1998
9. David Robinson* .1992
10. Tim Duncan .1948


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http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585035

MJ has 6 rings, he won the Finals MVP EVERY time...Kobe has 2 Finals MVP's..

League Mvps

MJ- 5
Kobe-1

Scoring Titles

MJ- 10
Kobe- 2

Times leading league in PER

MJ- 7 Times
Kobe- 0 times


Times being Top 3 in Win shares Per 48

MJ- 8 times
Kobe- Hes NEVER been in the top 3


Times Leading the League in Steals

MJ- 3 times
Kobe- 0 times


Ok, now lets look at playoffs,

Win Shares per 48?

MJ- 0.2553 (#1 all time)
Kobe- 0.1573 (#49 all time)


-Kobes had 1 playoffs where he had a win share ABOVE 4
- MJ has had 7 playoffs where he had a win share ABOVE 4


Well, the production in the playoffs isn't really close...



Career PER

MJ- 27.9 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)
Kobe 23.4 (Ranks #19 ALL TIME)

Career win shares per 48

MJ- 0.251 (Ranks #1 ALL TIME)
Kobe- 0.184 (Ranks #31 ALL TIME )

-----------------------------------------------------------
It's hard to compare Kobe to MJ, simply because not only does MJ have better numbers, but he has more accolades and is one of the top 4 most productive players ever. Not to mention he won all his titles as the best player in the nba with hardly any debate about it.


Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successfull franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise that had done absolutely ****. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles and turned that franchise into a dynasty and one of the best in sports history.

ManRam
08-14-2013, 09:25 AM
Holy ****, JB.

:worthy:

I'd say that JB ethered that poor little poster, but I'm not sure what I just all read.

Heatcheck
08-14-2013, 09:41 AM
Kobe has more all nba 1st team and more 1st defensive teams then jordan. What are jordan 11 awards?

5 MVPs and 6 Finals MVPS, DPOY and ROY
How bout those 11?

todu82
08-14-2013, 12:46 PM
Hakeem.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Jordan crushes him. Jabbar, Duncan, and soon to be LeBron are all more accomplished.

The reason Kobe has a case at top 10? Longevity. Because his pure peak and dominance during his peak don't stack up at all dude. Not to the greatest of the great.

Your claims of Kobe being a top ten play based off Longevity are pure trash, and are getting old.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-14-2013, 01:24 PM
Holy ****, JB.

:worthy:

I'd say that JB ethered that poor little poster, but I'm not sure what I just all read.

Leave the kid alone, comparing Jordan to Kobe isn't fair. He just might be to young to have seen Jordan.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-14-2013, 01:26 PM
Do your eyes work?

I just used my eyes to copy your post so yea, they seem to be in working order. Good post tho, a truly riveting rebuttal chap

Still mad about getting destroyed in the Tmac thread?

Chronz
08-14-2013, 03:01 PM
Still mad about getting destroyed in the Tmac thread?
Still cant find proof huh

diehardknickfan
08-14-2013, 11:02 PM
Kobe should have had 2 maybe even 3 but after the Colorado incident and the tiff with shaq a lot of the writers got turned off bye kobe and his attitude

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 06:56 AM
Hey guys and gals,
Please don't anybody take my first paragraph seriously, but:
Hey jordansbulls,
That was an encyclopedia of opinions (hehe). How about some facts (hehe).
And I thought I had just gotten finished filling up a series of long-posts with tons of NBA-historical stuff:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?830621-Who-Were-The-Greatest-One-Man-Finals-Series-Wrecking-Crew-Guys/page5

But, damn, you may have out-done me - who gave you the right? (hehe)

On a more serious note:
I loved MJ then (don't you pass in front of the TV when "my" Bulls are in the Finals); he almost made me forget that I had formerly told myself (as a much younger man) "Nobody will ever be greater than KAJ"; who also almost made me forget that I had formerly told myself (as a still younger man): "Nobody will ever be greater than Wilt The Stilt".

And I love Kobe now (high-quality for 15 years is hard to beat; and who knows if this latest phenom might not do some more hard-to-believe stuff in the coming years).

Lastly, I feel that "Very-High-Quality For 15+ Years" is vastly underrated in "these here parts". Take just an example or three:
KAJ: He had 18 Great Years (and his 19th wasn't that bad either). [More some other time].
Karl Malone had 17 Great Years (Great Years are Great Years; the more the better.)
John Stockton too (and he holds two All-Time Stats Records that could very well never be broken: one on offense=assists; one on defense=steals).*

Neither of these last 2 All-Time Greats gets nearly the All-Time acclaim he truly deserves imvho.

* In honor of my dad's memory, who very well may have "known" basketball better than me; I feel like I have to mention his "gripe" against Stockton, "He plays dirty, they let him get away with too many fouls when he tries to steal the ball." I didn't quite see it like that; but he felt a lot stronger about his position than I did about mine. One time I said to him: "But dad, he's a lot smaller than most of those guys." And he answered, "Get the f_ck out of here with that crap!" I was stunned, it was the ONLY time I EVER heard him come close to swearing!

el hidalgo
08-16-2013, 08:37 AM
Hey guys and gals,
Please don't anybody take my first paragraph seriously, but:
Hey jordansbulls,
That was an encyclopedia of opinions (hehe). How about some facts (hehe).
And I thought I had just gotten finished filling up a series of long-posts with tons of NBA-historical stuff:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?830621-Who-Were-The-Greatest-One-Man-Finals-Series-Wrecking-Crew-Guys/page5

But, damn, you may have out-done me - who gave you the right? (hehe)

On a more serious note:
I loved MJ then (don't you pass in front of the TV when "my" Bulls are in the Finals); he almost made me forget that I had formerly told myself (as a much younger man) "Nobody will ever be greater than KAJ"; who also almost made me forget that I had formerly told myself (as a still younger man): "Nobody will ever be greater than Wilt The Stilt".

And I love Kobe now (high-quality for 15 years is hard to beat; and who knows if this latest phenom might not do some more hard-to-believe stuff in the coming years).

Lastly, I feel that "Very-High-Quality For 15+ Years" is vastly underrated in "these here parts". Take just an example or three:
KAJ: He had 18 Great Years (and his 19th wasn't that bad either). [More some other time].
Karl Malone had 17 Great Years (Great Years are Great Years; the more the better.)
John Stockton too (and he holds two All-Time Stats Records that could very well never be broken: one on offense=assists; one on defense=steals).*

Neither of these last 2 All-Time Greats gets nearly the All-Time acclaim he truly deserves imvho.

* In honor my dad's memory, who very well may have "known" basketball better than me; I feel like I have to mention his "gripe" against Stockton, "He plays dirty, they let him get away with too many fouls when he tries to steal the ball." I didn't quite see it like that; but he felt a lot stronger about his position than I did about mine. One time I said to him: "But dad, he's a lot smaller than most of those guys." And he answered, "Get the f_ck out of here with that crap!" I was stunned, it was the ONLY time I EVER heard him come close to swearing!

Why bump both the Kobe flame war threads? ^ worst dupe ever

Dankster
08-16-2013, 09:39 AM
Well David Robinson and Hakeem played during the period where the greatest player of all time played, so they have the right amount of MVP awards between them.

I'd say Kobe Bryant. He has put up some gaudy numbers in certain seasons, although some of his best statistical years were when the Lakers were mediocre (right after Shaq's departure.) But Kobe was the best player in the NBA for a stretch of at least 2-3 years, and he has only 1 MVP to show for it.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 11:13 AM
Why bump both the Kobe flame war threads? ^ worst dupe ever

There must be very few times that so few words were in so many ways incorrect.

1) Seeing as (as you already know) I AM THE OP OF THE VERY THREAD I WAS LINKING TO; so wouldn't that make it pretty hard for me to be my own dupe using the same username?

2) There's been exceptionally little-to-none flame-wars in my thread - which is what the link links to.

3) If you would stop for a moment from "I'm gonna report ya" (which you said in that very thread!) and "worst dupe ever": you might actually read my thread and realize that, despite me being a "Kobe-lover" (in the non-physical sense to be sure! hopefully I nip that in the bud (or is it butt) before...); where was I? oh year, ...

if you actually read the thread you might realize that it is FAR FROM the best defense a "Kobe-Lover" would want to make. Instead, who I wonder does it tend to (after all it is still only a re-vised first DRAFT (based on Hollinger's work)) make shine the most? 4 Non-Kobes: MJ, Timmy, Shaq & D.Wade. Damn, you're your own worst enemy!

4) But I did have an "ulterior motive" for linking back to my own thread. But it wasn't to promote any one player or provoke an already non-existing flame war; it was simply this: I put a sh_t load of work into that thread generally (helping to answer points, keep the flow, flowing; trying to peace-keep to help tone-down any potential flame-war) but particularly with the info presented on pg 5 of that thread - and I'm really hoping people recognize it (not for my work - that's was my choice, my dedication to contributing to PSD-NBA, and paraphrasing an favorite ancient song from my youth "It's my thread and I can cry if I want to" about it, I suppose); BUT so that people might make use of that extraordinarily useful background info (essentially Hollinger "re-presented vis--vis the OP") - about "One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew guys.

Does this now make me a SUPER-DUPER???

P.S. I'm still having "trouble" adapting to a poster who uses a player's photo and then ONLY THRASES THAT VERY PLAYER. There must be a name for this syndrome, isn't there?

P.S.P.S. How's about we both/all just try to lighten up a bit here, ok? For my part, I'm trying (heck I make more fun of "my dupe" than of everybody else here put together - that's the spirit, isn't it?).

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Why bump both the Kobe flame war threads? ^ worst dupe ever

Is Pablonovi racking up MVP-Type Awards faster than anybody ever on PSD-NBA???
1) ALL-TIME PSD WIERDEST: It only took me 5 posts (count 'em 5) to be called the All-Time "weirdest guy on all of PSD". [I suppose if I wasn't me, (or if that Was my alter-ego 'dupe') I might have taken serious offense; but that ain't me - I'm either not enough of, or too much of, a fool to take it as anything but a compliment - I even raised that very question - and the answer from the same and other posters? "Weird in your case is good, keep it up!"]

2) ALL-TIME UNIVERSAL WIERDEST: It took me only 5 more posts (or less, that's such a huge number I've lost count amidst all the roiling controversy (NOT)); before I was nominated and seemingly unanimously "elected".(first time in history - that's still another "honor" hopefully!

3) ALL-TIME HIGHEST / MOST-STONED: I must have already passed my Peak; because it was much later in my first month (!) that my feeble attempts at jokes were called for what they really must have been: a serious stoner going off the stone. Actually, I can't even handle any that stuff:

a) ALCOHOL: tastes horrible to me; puts me right to sleep and wakes me up nasty (and this after only half a can!);

b) WEED: makes it way harder than it already is to control my own mind (imagine that!);

c) PILLS: don't need 'em, crazy enough already;

d) INJECTIBLES: no THANX - I've had the unfortune to have known way more than one-too-many tweakers.

4) ALL-TIME SUPER-DUPER!: I owe you, El Hidalgo, for this; I really am trying hard to think of a really cool way to say "Thank You"; a way that some one like you (is there another, one wonders - hehe) might truly find useful. I haven't given up yet - it's only been hours; and I admit I'm slow!

5) Warning: POTENTIAL-ONLY ALL-TIME AWARD: MOST ***-WHIPPED!: In my first post (count IT) I offended somebody (a high-quality poster and, iirc, a mod!) who I was actually trying to praise - and got what I deserved (actually must less, he was gracious beyond almost belief - but if I mention who he is, then I'd get accused of dupe-ification - heck that is exactly what happened as a result of me doing exactly that in my 2nd post!) Then, you could say, "I tried to pull one over on bagwell; about something related to the Legend himself" and boy bags DID NOT show any mercy - again all I could do was sniffle and quiver and beg for another chance ... to get my ***-kicked!

I'm sure I've (intentionally) forgotten more humiliations at the typing-fingers of others of the much-more-qualified-than-me posters.

And, last but not least, there's my latest ***-whipping at the (shooting-)stroke of El Hidalgo mismo (himself) (Mr. GoodHumor, "Mr. Quick With A Quip") for "Duping Myself Using My Own Username" (I thought no one would ever figure this out; but you can't get anything past this dude!) AND

"Further-Provoking-An-Already-Non-Existent-Flame-War" - this guy, El Hidalgo, should be a mod for how awesome he is at spotting and preventing such abuse!

SO, GUYS AND GALS:
What (bizarro-) Awards (in the PSD-NBA Universe) Are Still Out There For Me To Achieve? Bring it on, mo'fo's!!!

Kobe2324
08-16-2013, 12:17 PM
Kobe was considered the best player in the league for a solid 5 years or more, something that non of the other players were ever considered for even 1 year, not to say they didnt deserve more mvp's as I think they all do but with the option to chose only one Kobe was considered the best player longest, was and is productive longer than any of these guys and will be in the discussion for greatest even something that none of these players would ever be considered for, easy choice, but like I said, all deserved more than 1 and all great players, no hating from me.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 02:27 PM
Hakeem's defensive abilities were underrated by mvp voters. The guy played defensive player of the year defense, and was one of the greatest of all time defensively, as well as being a potent offensive force while playing for terrible coaches.

I don't think the voters really looked at his two way game. Barkley's two way game was notoriously lackluster

Hey Schlumpeldink (spelling?),

Your two sentences "roller-coasted" me big-time. I've seen what I believe to be some exaggeration by a very few posters here of just how great Hakeem was; but that's hard to do, because he WAS that damn both-ways good. MJ nailed it when he said he was "the most complete center" - really, he was just gorgeous to watch with or without the ball, regardless of the opponent ... no, better said, the better the opponent, the more beautifully he played. What grace!

Then you "crashed and burned" me with "Barkley's two-way game was notoriously lackluster." You made my stomach know up a little. Why? Well, if we look at it within your paragraph-structure context: yeah, COMPARED TO OJAJUWON, Barkley was defensively lackluster. But that just AIN'T FAIR.

Sir Charles, the self-proclaimed "round-mound of rebound" (he was, let's say a little on the chubby side when he first entered the League); had every reason to call himself that - he was a (especially Defensive) rebounding machine despite being only 6'-6" amongst the big trees. I NOT here to try to defend his somewhat lazy habits regarding individual one-on-one defense; but, iirc, he did NOT ever just stand around (except when he occasionally winded himself from all his full-court exertions); and/BUT his rebounding was MONONTOMOUSLY MONSTROUS! NO ONE could keep the guy off the boards. Everybody knows about his remarkable skill-set offensively. I have no idea what younger folk know or think they know about his team-work ethic - but, by my eye-test, he was a sheer joy (and tough task master for lax teamworks by words and especially example) of a teammate.

I admit I could be a good deal wrong about this; but my IMPRESSIONS about his two major stays go as follows:
Phily: class teamwork, hardworker, -chum/goof-off;
Phoenix: joins a new team with a clear pre-existing #1 - Kevin Johnson. No one could know who should/would be #1a and who #1b before they hit the regular season floor together. Clearly it turned out to be the Chuckster. I always felt an emotional welling-up (is that even a word or two?) that they made that normally tough-transition so damned smoothly: KJ was as gracious as anyone has even been in passing on the "crown"; and Chuck seemed to appreciate the grandeur of it - the were something to behold.

btw Hollinger rates the Chuckster's Finals Role as a good example of what I've been calling "One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew" - his all-around game was that good (and again, he clicked so well with his teammates, especially KJ).

I guess you'd have to refer to players in terms of "three-way": offense, defense and teamwork. On my scale, he gets 2.5 out of 3 Top Grades; and his non-rebounding defensive-presence was NOT below-average. Maybe that's why he's on virtually everybody's All-Time Top 25 GOAT Lists.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 02:36 PM
did he really just list first HS guard.... .are we seriously going to mention that with distinctions like MVPs

C'mon Chronz,
Get off you f_ckin' High Horse * (hehe):

What we need is for someone to start a new thread:
ALL-TIME TOP 25 GOAT HIGH-SCHOOLERS.

I don't know; it might be homerism reaching "All-Time Previously Unattained Heights" -unreadable; but it might not have many posts so that might make up for it a little?

High School, when the f_ck was that???

On the other hand, it probably meant a good deal more to me THEN than it does to me now - who knows - I sure don't!

As some one else has said, "Give the Kid a Break" - ("Men In Black" too - one of their funniest lines, imo).

* Did I miss something; have you always been this funny? Probably not your "fault". Think it's tough way up there? You got it made; way the bleep down here, there doesn't seem to be any hope of getting-the-weirdness-out of me ...

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 03:00 PM
Kobe was considered the best player in the league for a solid 5 years or more, something that non of the other players were ever considered for even 1 year, not to say they didnt deserve more mvp's as I think they all do but with the option to chose only one Kobe was considered the best player longest, was and is productive longer than any of these guys and will be in the discussion for greatest even something that none of these players would ever be considered for, easy choice, but like I said, all deserved more than 1 and all great players, no hating from me.

I disagree. As I have stated before, Kobe doesn't have a single year where you just say, "yep, best player, no doubt". But, he has 14-15 years where he is top 5 without a doubt. That is what makes him great.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-16-2013, 03:08 PM
I disagree. As I have stated before, Kobe doesn't have a single year where you just say, "yep, best player, no doubt". But, he has 14-15 years where he is top 5 without a doubt. That is what makes him great.

Wow, this is the biggest load of crap i've ever seen. So I guess sports writers, coachs, gms, and everyone else in the world were wrong when Kobe was considered the best player in the world from 05-09?

LegendsNvrDie23
08-16-2013, 03:13 PM
I disagree. As I have stated before, Kobe doesn't have a single year where you just say, "yep, best player, no doubt". But, he has 14-15 years where he is top 5 without a doubt. That is what makes him great.

Get real Hawkeye15

http://youtu.be/anoqbgOZrEg
http://youtu.be/IxYZAgKRtM8
Their opinion>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yours.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 03:15 PM
I disagree. As I have stated before, Kobe doesn't have a single year where you just say, "yep, best player, no doubt". But, he has 14-15 years where he is top 5 without a doubt. That is what makes him great.

Hey Hawk,
This is exactly correct. It's truly remarkable for anyone to maintain such a near-Peak super-quality-high.

But I really want to comment on is what this, your post (and it's not your first on the subject) represents. You AIN'T NO KOBEPHILE. Somewhat a polar opposite. Was it just a season ago you were proclaiming something like this:
"I just don't see anything Kobe could possibly do to either move up or down the All-Time Rankings". (Pretty close paraphrase, wouldn't you agree?) And then Kobe JUST somehow managed to tack on still one-more Top 5 Amazing Season.

And in your post here, with the fewest possible words you nail the whole "story" that is Kobe's Greatness: not even one single year where he was head-and-shoulders above everybody else; yet Top 5 like "forever". Wow.

How many here, deep in their hearts would have the strength of character to even admit such a thing to themselves in private; much less proclaim it out publicly? This takes personal guts and integrity. I feel honored to participate on the same forum that features your gracious presence.

P.S. Please don't do something incredibly stupid and make everyone see what a (kiss-***) fool I am! hehe

LegendsNvrDie23
08-16-2013, 03:20 PM
Hey Hawk,
This is exactly correct. It's truly remarkable for anyone to maintain such a near-Peak super-quality-high.

But I really want to comment on is what this, your post (and it's not your first on the subject) represents. You AIN'T NO KOBEPHILE. Somewhat a polar opposite. Was it just a season ago you were proclaiming something like this:
"I just don't see anything Kobe could possibly do to either move up or down the All-Time Rankings". (Pretty close paraphrase, wouldn't you agree?) And then Kobe JUST somehow managed to tack on still one-more Top 5 Amazing Season.

And in your post here, with the fewest possible words you nail the whole "story" that is Kobe's Greatness: not even one single year where he was head-and-shoulders above everybody else; yet Top 5 like "forever". Wow.

How many here, deep in their hearts would have the strength of character to even admit such a thing to themselves in private; much less proclaim it out publicly? This takes personal guts and integrity. I feel honored to participate on the same forum that features your gracious presence.

P.S. Please don't do something incredibly stupid and make everyone see what a (kiss-***) fool I am! hehe

:facepalm: Your act is getting old.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 03:28 PM
Wow, this is the biggest load of crap i've ever seen. So I guess sports writers, coachs, gms, and everyone else in the world were wrong when Kobe was considered the best player in the world from 05-09?

Not everyone thought that though, you are missing the point. There was no clear cut year you can prove to me that Kobe was just the best, no argument. It's one of the reasons Kobe will never sniff top 5 ever to me personally. His longevity, and dominance over 15 years is why he is around top 10 though..

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 03:29 PM
Get real Hawkeye15

http://youtu.be/anoqbgOZrEg
http://youtu.be/IxYZAgKRtM8
Their opinion>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yours.

did you feel the need to answer my post twice? I don't care about some tribute to Kobe Bryant videos to form an opinion. You can if you wish.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 03:40 PM
Not everyone thought that though, you are missing the point. There was no clear cut year you can prove to me that Kobe was just the best, no argument. It's one of the reasons Kobe will never sniff top 5 ever to me personally. His longevity, and dominance over 15 years is why he is around top 10 though..

Hawk,
This is where I'd tend to differ with you. It's my largely-minority opinion that KAJ's 18 years of Top Quality Play, including Top 1-2 Center (including within it, a Peak of 5+ years NOT way lower than MJ's) PLUS 4 MORE Finals Appearances that push him over MJ with his monster Peak but 5 less Top Quality Play years (thus I don't count his last 2 Washington years as Top Quality).

So, similarly, I'm still leaving open the possibility that Kobe can keep this amazing stuff up for a while longer. What if he ends up with 3 more Top-5 Type years - (thus 20 in total) =more than anybody else in history (could happen); that won't necessarily force his way into the All-Time Top 5; but, in my mind, it would seriously raise the question.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 03:48 PM
Hawk,
This is where I'd tend to differ with you. It's my largely-minority opinion that KAJ's 18 years of Top Quality Play, including Top 1-2 Center (including within it, a Peak of 5+ years NOT way lower than MJ's) PLUS 4 MORE Finals Appearances that push him over MJ with his monster Peak but 5 less Top Quality Play years (thus I don't count his last 2 Washington years as Top Quality).

So, similarly, I'm still leaving open the possibility that Kobe can keep this amazing stuff up for a while longer. What if he ends up with 3 more Top-5 Type years - (thus 20 in total) =more than anybody else in history (could happen); that won't necessarily force his way into the All-Time Top 5; but, in my mind, it would seriously raise the question.

But Kobe never reached a KAJ peak to begin with. I don't deny that he might still play at a high level for another 2-3 years, but to enter the elite of the elite, you need to have completely dominated the competition for a period of time, something Kobe never did. He was always one of the top players in the game, but at no point was he just flat out the most impactful player in the game for a good length of time.

Jordan dominated as the best in the game for a decade. Wilt dominated for nearly the same length. Jabbar as well. Shaq was the most dominant player in the game for 5 years. LeBron, after he gets enough behind him to be publically accepted as passing Kobe (to me he now has), has been the games most dominant player for 5 years and counting. There is realistically no arguing that the players I listed dominated as the games best for good periods of time, where as Kobe has not. Now, Kobe's longevity to me has moved him with, or past a player I thought had a better peak in Bird, and I still think Magic, Hakeem, and Duncan are all ahead of Kobe as well. Kobe just isn't going to climb anymore for me. He just wasn't dominant enough during his peak.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 03:52 PM
:facepalm: Your act is getting old.

Hey Legends...,
If you would be so kind as to explain what it is (a little more specifically) about that particular post, or my more-general style; I promise you that IF there is anything at all within your critique that has value; I WILL learn form it; and you will see a subsequent change and soon.

I get extra confused by your username and what's-it-called picture with MJ. I've just finished agreeing that NO Kobe's Top Year(s) stand out unequivocably as being clearly him as far-and-away #1. I would think that NO pro-MJ fan would have a problem with that (either objectively or from a more-homeristic viewpoint).

I did only complement Hawk for "objective-historical-fairness" (if such a thing can really be achieved); again, I don't know why you would find fault with that?

The only other thing I can see that might be a somewhat legitimate criticism is IF you're saying something like, "Pablo, you're joking around too much; that is disrespectful towards the standard level of this forum." Is THAT what you're addressing. Anticipating that it MIGHT (not that it for sure IS): My biggest pre-joining criticism of PSD-NBA was that, in my opinion, there was too much flame-warring (both in quantity and quality); and, though joking around in what I hope is a kind way (while never being flippant towards anything truly serious in nature) has always been a basic part of me; I felt like if I could make any contribution to "lightening" the tension-level; that that WOULD be a worthy contribution.

Along the same lines, I'd say few (if hardly any?) other posters here do much in the way of "praising" positive contributions of any others. I WOULD be UNABLE to accept and implement the suggestion that I should stop being/behaving in this fashion due to it supposedly being "too kiss a--" or pretty much any other "explanation" for such rejection I could imagine.

So, hopefully, this enables you to better "see where my question/request is coming from"? In sum, everything in this post has been said out of pure respect towards you. Would that you treat me equally kindly.
Your would-be friend,
Pablo

LegendsNvrDie23
08-16-2013, 04:02 PM
Not everyone thought that though, you are missing the point. There was no clear cut year you can prove to me that Kobe was just the best, no argument. It's one of the reasons Kobe will never sniff top 5 ever to me personally. His longevity, and dominance over 15 years is why he is around top 10 though..


did you feel the need to answer my post twice? I don't care about some tribute to Kobe Bryant videos to form an opinion. You can if you wish.

No argument? Come on dude. Why is that your favorite player called him the best player in the nba? does your opinion hold more weight than the current best player in the world, or how about the countless other super stars? Your opinion means nothing becuase your a Kobe hater. If you can explain why dozens of players, coaches and many other people claimed him to be the best player in the world that I might take your word seriously. I like how you dodged my second post becuase it slapped your argument in the face.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 04:02 PM
But Kobe never reached a KAJ peak to begin with. I don't deny that he might still play at a high level for another 2-3 years, but to enter the elite of the elite, you need to have completely dominated the competition for a period of time, something Kobe never did. He was always one of the top players in the game, but at no point was he just flat out the most impactful player in the game for a good length of time.

Jordan dominated as the best in the game for a decade. Wilt dominated for nearly the same length. Jabbar as well. Shaq was the most dominant player in the game for 5 years. LeBron, after he gets enough behind him to be publically accepted as passing Kobe (to me he now has), has been the games most dominant player for 5 years and counting. There is realistically no arguing that the players I listed dominated as the games best for good periods of time, where as Kobe has not. Now, Kobe's longevity to me has moved him with, or past a player I thought had a better peak in Bird, and I still think Magic, Hakeem, and Duncan are all ahead of Kobe as well. Kobe just isn't going to climb anymore for me. He just wasn't dominant enough during his peak.

Hawk,
I find your position to be, imo, Highly Worthy. I have quite often attempted to defeat that position and I really CAN'T. PEAK is Peak for a reason = DOMINANCE. Still, I am NOT ready to accept it as important as you hold it to be.

So, imo, a completely reasonable discussion has led to a (at least, temporary) mutually-agreed on impasse between two NOT that distant positions. Agree to Disagree? (With the proviso that perhaps in a year or three we (and others) re-visit it based on the (more-) final data from Kobe's (and other current players') career)?

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 04:18 PM
[QUOTE=LegendsNvrDie23;26898208]No argument? Come on dude.

No, there is no rational argument that can be made the Kobe was the runaway best player in any given year.


Why is that your favorite player called him the best player in the nba?

And who do you think is my favorite player?


does your opinion hold more weight than the current best player in the world, or how about the countless other super stars? Your opinion means nothing becuase your a Kobe hater.

Nah, I am subjective bud. Big difference. See, if I debate, I will bring evidence to the table, something I would ask you do if you wish this to continue. Show me why he was, instead of throwing others opinions at me. You are overestimating the level most thought Kobe was on. Did some think he was the best? Sure. But there were other players mentioned with plenty of other analysts, etc. You act as if he was considered the best in the game as easily as LeBron has the past 5 years, which is entirely false.


If you can explain why dozens of players, coaches and many other people claimed him to be the best player in the world that I might take your word seriously. I like how you dodged my second post becuase it slapped your argument in the face.

Dozens of players, coaches, and other basketball people also claimed others were better during years of that stretch. Kobe has what many players want, the rings and hardware. That has a lot of impact on their opinions.

I didn't "dodge" your post. Using youtube videos that glorify a player don't make an argument.

Again, do you have your own opinion, or are you going to piggyback the people who agree with you?

Hawkeye15
08-16-2013, 04:24 PM
Hawk,
I find your position to be, imo, Highly Worthy. I have quite often attempted to defeat that position and I really CAN'T. PEAK is Peak for a reason = DOMINANCE. Still, I am NOT ready to accept it as important as you hold it to be.

So, imo, a completely reasonable discussion has led to a (at least, temporary) mutually-agreed on impasse between two NOT that distant positions. Agree to Disagree? (With the proviso that perhaps in a year or three we (and others) re-visit it based on the (more-) final data from Kobe's (and other current players') career)?

Of course. Look, I have my opinions, they have been formed over the years from multiple people, but mostly my own interpretation. That being said, the moment you think you have everything set in stone in this game, you become unreasonable. I view the game different now than I did 10, or 25 years ago. And I am sure in 20 years, my views will have advanced, changed, etc.

I can only make my strongest case for my views. I can't force someone to believe them, I can only hope I can do what many others have helped me to do, and that is open my eyes to new ways/techniques to understand the game.

el hidalgo
08-16-2013, 05:05 PM
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whew, no more of that

Bravo95
08-16-2013, 05:48 PM
If Jordan wasn't in the picture, D-Rob could have won a couple more. But we can't do it that way so I'll say KG.

Pablonovi
08-16-2013, 07:38 PM
Of course. Look, I have my opinions, they have been formed over the years from multiple people, but mostly my own interpretation. That being said, the moment you think you have everything set in stone in this game, you become unreasonable. I view the game different now than I did 10, or 25 years ago. And I am sure in 20 years, my views will have advanced, changed, etc.

I can only make my strongest case for my views. I can't force someone to believe them, I can only hope I can do what many others have helped me to do, and that is open my eyes to new ways/techniques to understand the game.

Your quote applies just as much to me and my "evolution" b-ball-wise as it does to you. In fact, it IS what seems to be a real increasing tendency of the best of each generation to play more years that has prompted my shift towards more emphasis on prolonged-excellence vis--vis Pure-Peak.

amos1er
08-17-2013, 03:43 AM
But Kobe never reached a KAJ peak to begin with. I don't deny that he might still play at a high level for another 2-3 years, but to enter the elite of the elite, you need to have completely dominated the competition for a period of time, something Kobe never did. He was always one of the top players in the game, but at no point was he just flat out the most impactful player in the game for a good length of time.

Jordan dominated as the best in the game for a decade. Wilt dominated for nearly the same length. Jabbar as well. Shaq was the most dominant player in the game for 5 years. LeBron, after he gets enough behind him to be publically accepted as passing Kobe (to me he now has), has been the games most dominant player for 5 years and counting. There is realistically no arguing that the players I listed dominated as the games best for good periods of time, where as Kobe has not. Now, Kobe's longevity to me has moved him with, or past a player I thought had a better peak in Bird, and I still think Magic, Hakeem, and Duncan are all ahead of Kobe as well. Kobe just isn't going to climb anymore for me. He just wasn't dominant enough during his peak.

Come on Hawk... Do you really think that if you went before a panel of all time greats and basketball experts and tried to argue this that you wouldn't be laughed out of the room? To spew this type of rhetoric on a sports forum is one thing because you will never see how anyone of merit will react. But to tell it to someone you know for certain is at least equally or more knowledgeable than yourself is entirely different. Just imagine yourself in a room with the all time greats... Both coaches, players, and analysts alike and think to yourself if you would actually try to make this very same argument to them... Then, with that in mind, tell me truthfully that if what you are preaching is truly valid in your eyes. No offense, and you should know that I consider you to be very knowledgeable and impartial aside from on this particular subject, and you can write this all off as the ramblings of a "Kobephile" if you wish, but there is a reason why Lebron himself (as well as the majority of credible opinions around the NBA) said Kobe was the clear cut best from 05-10.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-17-2013, 12:53 PM
Come on Hawk... Do you really think that if you went before a panel of all time greats and basketball experts and tried to argue this that you wouldn't be laughed out of the room? To spew this type of rhetoric on a sports forum is one thing because you will never see how anyone of merit will react. But to tell it to someone you know for certain is at least equally or more knowledgeable than yourself is entirely different. Just imagine yourself in a room with the all time greats... Both coaches, players, and analysts alike and think to yourself if you would actually try to make this very same argument to them... Then, with that in mind, tell me truthfully that if what you are preaching is truly valid in your eyes. No offense, and you should know that I consider you to be very knowledgeable and impartial aside from on this particular subject, and you can write this all off as the ramblings of a "Kobephile" if you wish, but there is a reason why Lebron himself (as well as the majority of credible opinions around the NBA) said Kobe was the clear cut best from 05-10.

This is his way of trolling to get a rise out of Laker fans. His argument of Kobe never being the best is the biggest joke in the world. Any basketball expert would laugh at his theory. I know at least 8 Heat fans in real life, and most of them would never say such a stupid thing.