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JasonJohnHorn
08-12-2013, 02:21 PM
Couple questions on Rondo. First and foremost: Would he have developed into the player he is today had be played for a lottery team with a weak coach and supporting staff? As a rookie he shot .418 from the floor and only averaged 5.8 assist per36. With the addition of Garnett and Allen, along with Pierce, he got it up to 6.1 per36 in his sophomore season.


I believe having options like Allen aGranett and Piece, coupled with the mentoring or Doc Rivers really helped him become the playmaker he became. Would Rondo have been able to accomplish this if he was, say playing for Lawrence Frank on a Pistons' roster with no shooters while competing for minutes with Knight and Stuckey? Or on a team like the Bobcats where he would compete for minutes with Felton or Walker and no pure shooters to dish to? Is Rondo the product of raw talent, hard work and GREAT PLAYER DEVELOPMENT? I ask this because I think player development is a lost art. Pippen is a great example. It took him 4 years to develop into a legit second option and 5 years to really become a franchise calbire player. This was in part due to his own hard work and talent, but also the mentoring of Phil Jackson. We see much the same with Horace Grant. The Pistons did the same with Rodman. Now, with coaches moving around as much as they do, and players being traded as often, I think the art of player development has disappeared. Few teams have the infrastructure to pull it off. The Celtics did. The Spurs do (they've helped develop guys like Manu and Parker into HOFers and have helped bench warmers on lottery teams turn into rotation players on contenders, like Udrih and Roger Mason Jr.). Now a guy may be developed by one coach, and then a new coach comes in an puts him in the dog house. Or a team wants results now and moves a player in a deal to create cap space or get draft picks.



Also, now that Rondo doesn't have weapons like Allen, PP and Garnett, will he still be able to produce the same amount of assists?


Thoughts on Rondo and player development?

WoodsyRaps
08-12-2013, 02:36 PM
My guess is that his production in assists will go down slightly without the big 3 (big 2 more recently) around him. I do believe he learned alot from them though and wont decline too much without them.

If it weren't for the big 3 originally, I do not believe Rondo would be what he is today.

WHODAT8o8
08-12-2013, 02:41 PM
I think he wouldnt be as pass happy if he didnt play with the big three. I feel he would look to score more if he didnt start his career with three future hofers. I believe his mentality would change because he wouldnt feel the need he has to get those three the ball.

kobe4thewinbang
08-12-2013, 02:50 PM
Rondo is getting better at shooting, isn't he? He'll never be Steph Curry, though. His passing skills could help out Boston's rookies like Olynyk, and maybe Sullinger will have a promising year, but most of all I hope he gets traded. Celtics will be a shadow of their former shelf for a couple of years without Pierce and Garnett.

slaker619
08-12-2013, 02:51 PM
I see him taking over more instead passing and hopefully he has enough people around him so its not just a rondo show, but he has developed into a great player and now he can put those skills to the test!

KnickaBocka.44
08-12-2013, 03:54 PM
Couple questions on Rondo. First and foremost: Would he have developed into the player he is today had be played for a lottery team with a weak coach and supporting staff? As a rookie he shot .418 from the floor and only averaged 5.8 assist per36. With the addition of Garnett and Allen, along with Pierce, he got it up to 6.1 per36 in his sophomore season.


I believe having options like Allen aGranett and Piece, coupled with the mentoring or Doc Rivers really helped him become the playmaker he became. Would Rondo have been able to accomplish this if he was, say playing for Lawrence Frank on a Pistons' roster with no shooters while competing for minutes with Knight and Stuckey? Or on a team like the Bobcats where he would compete for minutes with Felton or Walker and no pure shooters to dish to? Is Rondo the product of raw talent, hard work and GREAT PLAYER DEVELOPMENT? I ask this because I think player development is a lost art. Pippen is a great example. It took him 4 years to develop into a legit second option and 5 years to really become a franchise calbire player. This was in part due to his own hard work and talent, but also the mentoring of Phil Jackson. We see much the same with Horace Grant. The Pistons did the same with Rodman. Now, with coaches moving around as much as they do, and players being traded as often, I think the art of player development has disappeared. Few teams have the infrastructure to pull it off. The Celtics did. The Spurs do (they've helped develop guys like Manu and Parker into HOFers and have helped bench warmers on lottery teams turn into rotation players on contenders, like Udrih and Roger Mason Jr.). Now a guy may be developed by one coach, and then a new coach comes in an puts him in the dog house. Or a team wants results now and moves a player in a deal to create cap space or get draft picks.



Also, now that Rondo doesn't have weapons like Allen, PP and Garnett, will he still be able to produce the same amount of assists?


Thoughts on Rondo and player development?


This isn't exactly a new idea. Many people, including myself, have long suspected that Rondo's production was due large in part to the talent around him. I've softened my stance on that because of the regression in talent around him and the fact that his assist numbers have stayed steady despite that.

Rondo's development doesn't necessarily indicate that the Celtics have, or had, great player development either. Outside of him, who have they really developed? As already mentioned, he had the benefit of playing alongside 3 HoF players who undoubtedly taught him a thing or 2 along the way.


As for the alternative situations you mentioned, the Pistons and Bobcats, they are pretty poor suggestions considering Rondo wasn't picked until 21st, Detroit didn't have a first round pick that year and Charlotte was picking 3rd. He wasn't a viable selection by either team. In addition to that, he never would have competed with Knight or Walker because they weren't selected until 2 years ago, 5 years after Rondo had been in the league. Stuckey also wasn't selected until the year after Rondo was drafted, so who knows if he would have ended up in Detroit.If he had ended up in Detroit though, he would have had the luxury of backing up Chauncey Billups his rookie year and playing with that cast of all-stars, so take your pick really.


At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter how he has become the player he is today. What matters is proving that he is the same player he has been up until this point; something that will be even more difficult coming off of ACL surgery.

JasonJohnHorn
08-13-2013, 03:20 AM
As for the alternative situations you mentioned, the Pistons and Bobcats, they are pretty poor suggestions considering Rondo wasn't picked until 21st, Detroit didn't have a first round pick that year and Charlotte was picking 3rd. He wasn't a viable selection by either team. In addition to that, he never would have competed with Knight or Walker because they weren't selected until 2 years ago, 5 years after Rondo had been in the league. Stuckey also wasn't selected until the year after Rondo was drafted, so who knows if he would have ended up in Detroit.If he had ended up in Detroit though, he would have had the luxury of backing up Chauncey Billups his rookie year and playing with that cast of all-stars, so take your pick really.


Firstly, I didn't say it was a 'new' idea. Does everything thread have to be a completely new idea? Secondly... umm... yeah... I know when Rondo was drafted. I'm saying if that was the KIND of situation he was in when he got drafted, would have been able to develop. I'm not saying that he would have been in those situation. There were just examples of teams with point guards who aren't as good as Rondo, but who may have been better options than Rondo as a rookie.


As for player development, yes, there were others. Glen Davis, Tony Allen, Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe. They were all role players that weren't drafted very high who made it into the rotation and were viable role players (some more than others). And yes, as I pointed out, the Spurs are clearly the best example of a team that develops players and the entire point of the conversation is that teams simply don't develop players the way they used to (Boston and SA are really the only examples of teams that have been able to do that... Indy as well perhaps).

So do you just like to come in and $#!T all over the conversation and try to make it sound dumb? If you don't feel like taking part, don't. But there is no reason to try and pick holes in a conversation. You don't have to answer the questions if you don't want to, but coming up with reasons not to answer it doesn't make for an interesting conversation and doesn't make you sound like the type of person I'd care to have a conversation with.

dalton749
08-13-2013, 04:06 AM
Terrence Ross is a guy who would have benefited greatly had he gone to a Boston/ San Antonio type team. Would be a potential star but instead he's stuck on torontos bench

Sportfan
08-13-2013, 04:12 AM
Ross was a guy I wanted badly. I seriously thought he could develop into a prime Joe Johnson.

dalton749
08-13-2013, 04:30 AM
Ross was a guy I wanted badly. I seriously thought he could develop into a prime Joe Johnson.

I think he's actually capable of more than joe Johnson because of his ridiculous athleticism. I just wish we could trade him to the spurs until the end of his rookie contract so he could develop like Leonard lol

bagwell368
08-13-2013, 09:48 AM
Rondo's peak was in 2008-2010. We was in the top 5 one year, and in the top 10 in the other. In the 3 years since he's never been a top 10 PG in any single season, hanging out around the 12-14th. His on ball defense went to hell last year. His 15 game mental vacation after the Perk deal cost the Celts a likely #1 seed in the East.

His jump shooting got a big better last year, but his 3's are still awful, and his FT shooting remains the worst in the NBA among PG's.

He's been a moody distraction, getting suspended by the NBA 3 times in a calendar year. Breaking team film equipment, and yelling at cameramen standing in legal places to film from. He was labeled as uncoachable by both Doc and Ainge in the past. In his early days he wouldn't practice FT's as Doc wanted - look at the results. He's a stubborn, willful DB. Ray Allen and Doc both appear to have left in large part due to Rondo. Rondo started a fight with former Celt and Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

The guy has become such an assist addict that he passes up bunnies to try and score an assist.

He plays great on National TV which is why most non Celt PSD fans think he's great, he submits many dogs on local TV against teams with meh PG's because his isn't into it.

Best move for the Celts is prove he's in good shape post surgery and ship him away.

So, I'm afraid his development is actually going backwards.

I Rock Shaqs
08-13-2013, 09:50 AM
Ross was a guy I wanted badly. I seriously thought he could develop into a prime Joe Johnson.

You Seriously thought?? It's been one season.... I'd like to know your other "serious thoughts" that you completely give up on after 1 year.

bagwell368
08-13-2013, 09:52 AM
I see him taking over more instead passing and hopefully he has enough people around him so its not just a rondo show, but he has developed into a great player and now he can put those skills to the test!

Celts fan since 1966 here. Rondo was near great in 2008-09, but overall is far from great. If he is say the 2nd scoring option after Green expect a sub 30 game season. His efficiency is dirt. His D has been in decline.

RollingWave
08-13-2013, 10:02 AM
Assist don't really matter that much in terms of teammates, if anything, worse teammates might actually help assist, because they need their shots assisted to really stand a chance of making the bucket.

Also , Assist has really poor correlation with actual offense production. to give you an idea, this was the top 5 assist teams in the NBA last year.

Spurs
Hawks
Denver
Clippers
Mavs

some of those are great offense, but some were pretty middling. on the other end of the spectrum, here's the 5 worst assist teams last year.

Knicks
Bobcats
Pacers
Nets
Cavs

2 of those team were top 10 in offense efficiency. granted, they played at very slow pace.

In the Rondo era, the C's been bottom 10 in points scored more often than they been top 10, and this is true for efficiency too.

BUT, you can make a pro Rondo argument in that if you look carefully at on / off numbers through the years, the C's offense really do seem to fall apart when Rondo's not on the floor, so maybe it's more of a testimony that the C's simply had horrendous 2nd / 3rd string PG play in the past 8 years.

I'm on the fence on Rondo, I'd generally lean toward Bagwell's opinion that he's not the player most people think he is, especially now, but there is also some evidence to the contrary that gives me pause.

So it's going to be an interesting year to be sure, and really, 9 to 10 years into the league, it's hard to still use the "developing" argument, you can make that argument if your say.. John Wall / Kyrie Irving / Damian Lillard / Jeremy Lin / Ricky Rubio / Kemba Walker or even Brandon Jennings / Brandon Teague / Russell Westbrook, you can't use that if your Rajon Rondo. Just like no one's really taking "Dwight develop a post game!" seriously, they just hope the can go back to being a mildly competent free throw shooter.

MrfadeawayJB
08-13-2013, 10:37 AM
His development would not be where it is now. He would still be talented, but his mins and value would not be what it was in Boston.

Playing with good players early on his career did wonders for him. It allowed him to be himself and throw unconventional and flashy passes. The likes of pierce, Garnett, Allen etc. made the passing lanes easier. On a crappy team, if he tried those same passes the result would be turnovers and he would ride pines hindering his development

bagwell368
08-13-2013, 11:39 AM
Assist don't really matter that much in terms of teammates, if anything, worse teammates might actually help assist, because they need their shots assisted to really stand a chance of making the bucket.

Eh... In the case of the RA/PP Celts, they made a great deal of pull-backs, shots behind screens and picks. Most often those passes are parallel to the basket, so not heavily defended, and easily made by HOF scorers. Now passing to KG on the block is harder and more prone to being defended.

You actually think the Celts are going to shoot as effectively as the 2007-2011 Celts this year? Don't think so.


In the Rondo era, the C's been bottom 10 in points scored more often than they been top 10, and this is true for efficiency too.

Not really good on the offensive glass either. But what about the shooting %'s? What about the SRS indicating how much effort they put into the D side.


BUT, you can make a pro Rondo argument in that if you look carefully at on / off numbers through the years, the C's offense really do seem to fall apart when Rondo's not on the floor

What are you looking at? First 9 games last year after he went out they played much better with Barbosa at the point. Also in years prior to last year the Celts had a better winning % when he didn't play at all, and a slightly better points scored per minute mark, but I'm just repeating those stats, I didn't generate them.

So it's going to be an interesting year to be sure, and really, 9 to 10 years into the league, it's hard to still use the "developing" argument[/QUOTE]

Great point. I hate this "he's just a kid" argument. The guy is deeply into the middle of his career. If his defensive decline continues then he's more than half way into it - in particular in terms of effectiveness.

bagwell368
08-13-2013, 11:46 AM
His development would not be where it is now. He would still be talented, but his mins and value would not be what it was in Boston.

Playing with good players early on his career did wonders for him. It allowed him to be himself and throw unconventional and flashy passes. The likes of pierce, Garnett, Allen etc. made the passing lanes easier. On a crappy team, if he tried those same passes the result would be turnovers and he would ride pines hindering his development

Interesting. 3 HOF's that can really shot also take the weight of a C that can't catch the ball or shoot more than a foot from the the hoop (Perk), and a PG that also can't shoot very far from the hoop (Rondo). Rondo was passed over in the draft due to his shooting and his run ins with Tubby - I guess some things don't change.

KnickaBocka.44
08-13-2013, 12:42 PM
Firstly, I didn't say it was a 'new' idea. Does everything thread have to be a completely new idea? Secondly... umm... yeah... I know when Rondo was drafted. I'm saying if that was the KIND of situation he was in when he got drafted, would have been able to develop. I'm not saying that he would have been in those situation. There were just examples of teams with point guards who aren't as good as Rondo, but who may have been better options than Rondo as a rookie.


As for player development, yes, there were others. Glen Davis, Tony Allen, Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe. They were all role players that weren't drafted very high who made it into the rotation and were viable role players (some more than others). And yes, as I pointed out, the Spurs are clearly the best example of a team that develops players and the entire point of the conversation is that teams simply don't develop players the way they used to (Boston and SA are really the only examples of teams that have been able to do that... Indy as well perhaps).

So do you just like to come in and $#!T all over the conversation and try to make it sound dumb? If you don't feel like taking part, don't. But there is no reason to try and pick holes in a conversation. You don't have to answer the questions if you don't want to, but coming up with reasons not to answer it doesn't make for an interesting conversation and doesn't make you sound like the type of person I'd care to have a conversation with.

Are you really putting those guys in the same class as Rondo, and even the Spurs and Pacers players they have developed? That was my point, is that the Celtics don't fit with those other teams.

You basically just got all pissed because I don't agree with you.

JasonJohnHorn
08-13-2013, 01:41 PM
Are you really putting those guys in the same class as Rondo, and even the Spurs and Pacers players they have developed? That was my point, is that the Celtics don't fit with those other teams.

You basically just got all pissed because I don't agree with you.

Firstly, I'm not pissed, I'm just noting how you are being difficult for no reason.


Secondly, I didn't even take a stance other than to say that player development has gone down the tubes. I asked what people thought.

As for the other players not being as good as Rondo, I agree with that. I didn't say they were as good as Rondo, I just said they were players that the Celtics developed. They were players that weren't that good and became rotation players on a championship team. You try to change the conversation by saying I said those guys are as good as Rondo, which I never said. You are arguing with something I didn't say to make yourself sound right. Try making a point about something I said. Player development doesn't always turn guys into HOF players. That is rare. Player development makes players better and helps them become good rotation players and in rare cases All-Stars. You look at a guy like Stephen Jackson, who couldn't even make an NBA roster, he tries out for the Spurs and they put the time into him, be becomes a key player in a championship run. Bruce Bowen couldn't make a roster, he gets to the Spurs and he has several season of consecutive starts and makes the All-Defensive team several times. Guys like Roger Mason couldn't even make the rotation on a the Wizards, but the Spurs pick him up and all of a sudden he's a rotation player on a a 50+ win team.

Looking at guys like Perkin, Powe, and Davis, none of them have been able to continue their improvement post-Boston. Tony Allen has.

Look... you pick on what you want, infer what you want, bemoan and argue against points I didn't even make. Knock yourself out. Just know that your etiquette leaves a little to be desired. You don't think a conversation isn't worth having, don't participate in it. You want to speak to a question, speak to a question and don't make up conclusion and then put them in somebody else's mouth.

Mr.ATLHawks
08-13-2013, 02:12 PM
Rondo is one of those rare PG's who make players better with his passing ability, combined with his ability to get to the rim. It would be interesting to see what % of his assists went to Pierce and Garnett. I think he can have a better year then before because he will finally have some players that can run with him. There half court offense will struggle. Sure he benefitted playing around some good players, but I also don't discount the things brings to the game and his ability to feed his stars, and take over when his stars weren't there.

I think they would be stupid trading him IMO.

bagwell368
08-13-2013, 03:18 PM
Rondo is one of those rare PG's who make players better with his passing ability, combined with his ability to get to the rim.

Rondo does drive well, but he does it less and less because he gets his bell rung constantly when doing so, and then misses about half of his FT's.

The fact is Rondo can only do three things on offense above an average level - pass, rebound and drive. And since he doesn't drive much, and his advantage in O-rebounding might be high rank wise but isn't a big deal in terms of totals (and he gives up points by not getting back on D as he should) - all we have left that he can do a lot of is pass. His shooting sucks, and most teams don't cover him even, so it's 5 on 4 on D much of the time. Imagine how good he could be if he could shoot well. Well, he can't, so passing is what is left. He dominates the ball, and last year ran one of the most stilted boring offenses I've ever seen. After he was out, Barbosa ran the team much better in the 8.5 games he had before he was hurt. Players looked happier and key players like Green responded with more FGA and more FGM.


It would be interesting to see what % of his assists went to Pierce and Garnett. I think he can have a better year then before because he will finally have some players that can run with him. There half court offense will struggle. Sure he benefitted playing around some good players, but I also don't discount the things brings to the game and his ability to feed his stars, and take over when his stars weren't there.

I think they would be stupid trading him IMO.

We'll see how much he can do recovering from his injury. A running game needs players that can run, pass, and shot fairly well, and at least 3 that can dribble. How will his shooting improve in order to fill that bill? For one thing this means Rondo will hold the ball less, and probably get less assists both from having the ball less and having players that shoot worse than the ones he had before, even if the pace is faster.

BTW, what stars will he be feeding?

MrfadeawayJB
08-13-2013, 03:28 PM
Rondo is one of those rare PG's who make players better with his passing ability, combined with his ability to get to the rim.

Rondo does drive well, but he does it less and less because he gets his bell rung constantly when doing so, and then misses about half of his FT's.

The fact is Rondo can only do three things on offense above an average level - pass, rebound and drive. And since he doesn't drive much, and his advantage in O-rebounding might be high rank wise but isn't a big deal in terms of totals (and he gives up points by not getting back on D as he should) - all we have left that he can do a lot of is pass. His shooting sucks, and most teams don't cover him even, so it's 5 on 4 on D much of the time. Imagine how good he could be if he could shoot well. Well, he can't, so passing is what is left. He dominates the ball, and last year ran one of the most stilted boring offenses I've ever seen. After he was out, Barbosa ran the team much better in the 8.5 games he had before he was hurt. Players looked happier and key players like Green responded with more FGA and more FGM.


It would be interesting to see what % of his assists went to Pierce and Garnett. I think he can have a better year then before because he will finally have some players that can run with him. There half court offense will struggle. Sure he benefitted playing around some good players, but I also don't discount the things brings to the game and his ability to feed his stars, and take over when his stars weren't there.

I think they would be stupid trading him IMO.

We'll see how much he can do recovering from his injury. A running game needs players that can run, pass, and shot fairly well, and at least 3 that can dribble. How will his shooting improve in order to fill that bill? For one thing this means Rondo will hold the ball less, and probably get less assists both from having the ball less and having players that shoot worse than the ones he had before, even if the pace is faster.

BTW, what stars will he be feeding?

Olynyk lol

KnickaBocka.44
08-13-2013, 03:31 PM
Firstly, I'm not pissed, I'm just noting how you are being difficult for no reason.


Secondly, I didn't even take a stance other than to say that player development has gone down the tubes. I asked what people thought.

As for the other players not being as good as Rondo, I agree with that. I didn't say they were as good as Rondo, I just said they were players that the Celtics developed. They were players that weren't that good and became rotation players on a championship team. You try to change the conversation by saying I said those guys are as good as Rondo, which I never said. You are arguing with something I didn't say to make yourself sound right. Try making a point about something I said. Player development doesn't always turn guys into HOF players. That is rare. Player development makes players better and helps them become good rotation players and in rare cases All-Stars. You look at a guy like Stephen Jackson, who couldn't even make an NBA roster, he tries out for the Spurs and they put the time into him, be becomes a key player in a championship run. Bruce Bowen couldn't make a roster, he gets to the Spurs and he has several season of consecutive starts and makes the All-Defensive team several times. Guys like Roger Mason couldn't even make the rotation on a the Wizards, but the Spurs pick him up and all of a sudden he's a rotation player on a a 50+ win team.

Looking at guys like Perkin, Powe, and Davis, none of them have been able to continue their improvement post-Boston. Tony Allen has.

Look... you pick on what you want, infer what you want, bemoan and argue against points I didn't even make. Knock yourself out. Just know that your etiquette leaves a little to be desired. You don't think a conversation isn't worth having, don't participate in it. You want to speak to a question, speak to a question and don't make up conclusion and then put them in somebody else's mouth.

Okay man, sorry I hurt your feelings.

colinskik
08-13-2013, 03:35 PM
Celts fan since 1966 here. Rondo was near great in 2008-09, but overall is far from great. If he is say the 2nd scoring option after Green expect a sub 30 game season. His efficiency is dirt. His D has been in decline.

I've seen you on here really pushing your anti-Rondo agenda of late. No doubt this is a big year for Rondo in the eyes of fans to see what kind of player he is as the star of his team. If he proves you wrong I hope give him credit where credit's due.

hugepatsfan
08-13-2013, 03:59 PM
Rondo's still going to put up his assist #s. I don't think the decline in scoring options will effect that to be honest. He's one of the most ball dominant players in the NBA despite his high assist totals. He's not a great second and third pass player - he always has off ball action setting him up to make the pass to the shooter. Even if the Celtics are downright pathetic and only score 80 points a game Rondo will probably still assist on 10 or so of those buckets just by virtue of having the ball most of the time.

Chronz
08-13-2013, 04:01 PM
Im sure plenty of PG's started off slow Y1 and then exploded. Hell Nash took forever to explode right? Gary Payton/Jason Kidd weren't much in Y1.

Mr.ATLHawks
08-13-2013, 04:39 PM
Rondo does drive well, but he does it less and less because he gets his bell rung constantly when doing so, and then misses about half of his FT's.

The fact is Rondo can only do three things on offense above an average level - pass, rebound and drive. And since he doesn't drive much, and his advantage in O-rebounding might be high rank wise but isn't a big deal in terms of totals (and he gives up points by not getting back on D as he should) - all we have left that he can do a lot of is pass. His shooting sucks, and most teams don't cover him even, so it's 5 on 4 on D much of the time. Imagine how good he could be if he could shoot well. Well, he can't, so passing is what is left. He dominates the ball, and last year ran one of the most stilted boring offenses I've ever seen. After he was out, Barbosa ran the team much better in the 8.5 games he had before he was hurt. Players looked happier and key players like Green responded with more FGA and more FGM.



We'll see how much he can do recovering from his injury. A running game needs players that can run, pass, and shot fairly well, and at least 3 that can dribble. How will his shooting improve in order to fill that bill? For one thing this means Rondo will hold the ball less, and probably get less assists both from having the ball less and having players that shoot worse than the ones he had before, even if the pace is faster.

BTW, what stars will he be feeding?

Jeff Green is the only clear cut All Star I believe, Crash can run the floor well, MarShon Brooks showed flashes of being a good player until he was buried on the bench, Lee, Crawford, Olynyk, Sullinger...Sure they don't have a NBA Championship Roster but to say they lost a ton of scoring would be an overstatement.

JasonJohnHorn
08-14-2013, 12:17 AM
Jeff Green is the only clear cut All Star I believe, Crash can run the floor well, MarShon Brooks showed flashes of being a good player until he was buried on the bench, Lee, Crawford, Olynyk, Sullinger...Sure they don't have a NBA Championship Roster but to say they lost a ton of scoring would be an overstatement.


Am I the only one who doesn't see the big deal with Jeff Green? I think I'm missing something here, because to me he looks like a bench player on a contender, and a borderline starter on most teams. I haven't gotten to watch him play. Is he really that good?

I'm hoping Olynyk pans out well because he's Canadian... Sullinger has some potential but he's gotta bring those fouls down and Crawford is a decent scorer, but Brooks' FG% is low and... yeah... there just doesn't seem to be much there. Lee is a great 3pt shooter though.

Bookey
08-14-2013, 12:52 AM
Rondo is the most overrated player in the league

Mr.ATLHawks
08-14-2013, 02:23 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't see the big deal with Jeff Green? I think I'm missing something here, because to me he looks like a bench player on a contender, and a borderline starter on most teams. I haven't gotten to watch him play. Is he really that good?

I'm hoping Olynyk pans out well because he's Canadian... Sullinger has some potential but he's gotta bring those fouls down and Crawford is a decent scorer, but Brooks' FG% is low and... yeah... there just doesn't seem to be much there. Lee is a great 3pt shooter though.

Jeff Green has that 4 size but 3 athleticism. In the 6 playoff games where he got some minutes he averaged 20 ppg. Not to bad. Brooks should turn out to be better then Crawford. Crawford's shot selection is absolutely horrid.

Lim
08-14-2013, 04:05 PM
Rondos assists will go UP without the big 3. Book it!

bagwell368
08-14-2013, 09:12 PM
Rondos assists will go UP without the big 3. Book it!

More than his career (8.3)? Maybe More than his career high (11.7) APG? No way.

RollingWave
08-14-2013, 09:26 PM
it will, if only because his USG would be force up even more now.

Either way, I'm kinda curious to see what happens.

Bagwell, regarding Rondo on off,

Aside from last year, he's always been fairly positive, 82games seems down in the last couple weeks but you can also reach that conclusion from Basketball referense. here's what the team point differential and point differential was with Rondo on the floor in the last 5 season starting from the closest.

Team
-0.62
2.26
4.83
3.37
7.44

Rondo
-2.6
5.0
0.7
4.7
10.1

So it's uneven, there's a few years where he's worse than team average and there's a few where he's significantly better.

in terms of RAPM (Regularized +/- ) that takes into account of teammates +/- and opposing once. Rondo comes out pretty well. starting from this year back.

0.6
3.6
3.3
2.5
2.9

so it was pretty steady up till last year, when things kinda fell apart. 0.6 was basically decent PG level, a lot of PG with flaws were in that 0.7-0.4 range (Holliday / Nash / Lillard / Lin / Lawson / Walker to name a few.) but the relatively small sample size and injury may have skewed things there.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens going forward. I really don't know , him doing anything from bad to really good wouldn't shock me.

Wade n Fade
08-15-2013, 01:45 AM
If Toronto were to make a move for Rondo, would Boston do it? Derozan or Ross + Lowry and picks?

leprechaun5
08-15-2013, 03:51 AM
If Toronto were to make a move for Rondo, would Boston do it? Derozan or Ross + Lowry and picks?

if that pick is unprotected absolutely .

Lim
08-17-2013, 04:16 PM
@Bagwell - Yes to both. His usage is only going to go up now without the big 3. He might not be 100% though because of his acl injury.