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Mile High Champ
08-10-2013, 01:25 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Andre Iguodala
5) Paul Pierce
6) Kawhi Leonard
7) Luol Deng
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Rudy Gay
7) Luol Deng
8) Danny Granger
9) Danilo Gallinari
10) Nicolas Batum

2011 Off-Season Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Danny Granger
7) Luol Deng
8) Rudy Gay
9) Gerald Wallace
10) Danilo Gallinari

2010 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Andre Iguodala
8) Rudy Gay
9) Luol Deng
10) Ron Artest

2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Mile High Champ
08-10-2013, 01:30 AM
Mods please sticky

Raps08-09 Champ
08-10-2013, 01:35 AM
Gallo.

bucketss
08-10-2013, 01:40 AM
gay

Mile High Champ
08-10-2013, 01:44 AM
For me the last 3 spots go.

Gay
Batum
Gall

Batum is getting underrated in these threads.

tredigs
08-10-2013, 02:16 AM
Oh Rudy Gay, the Monta Ellis of small forwards. Jack of some trades (mostly shots), master of none.

I've actually always liked watching him play, but he's definitely a case where talent eclipses reality.

Batum regressed in being given a bigger role last year.

JEDean89
08-10-2013, 02:26 AM
Isn't Paul George the 4th best SF in the league? Is he really considered a 2 guard at 6' 9"?

To me its

Lebron
KD
Melo
George
Iggy
Kahwi
Deng
Gallo
Gay
Parsons

5ass
08-10-2013, 03:39 AM
Batum can pass, play d, and shoot the 3. He's the best role player here. I still think he's better off at SG though.

rockets-fan
08-10-2013, 04:07 AM
Parsons, maybe Gallo

sunsfan88
08-10-2013, 04:48 AM
Gayyyy. Most clutch player out of the list and also he got his act together towards the end of the season and was efficient then. 18, 6 & 3 can't be ignored.

Bruno
08-10-2013, 01:05 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=gayru01&y1=2013&p2=gallida01&y2=2013&p3=batumni01&y3=2013&p4=harrito02&y4=2013&p5=kirilan01&y5=2013&p6=parsoch01&y6=2013

danilo or ak here.

also wana point out that Matrix had a come back year but probably not enough to merit top ten.

JusDBasics
08-10-2013, 01:12 PM
Gay should have been number 6 on this poll, no way he also gets beat out by GALLINARI!

Sportfan
08-10-2013, 01:13 PM
would love to hear an argument against Ak here?

Sportfan
08-10-2013, 01:15 PM
am i the only one btw who thinks leonard was a HUGE reach at 6? i was thinking 9/10 for him

ricky recon
08-10-2013, 01:25 PM
Shawn Marion had a better PER last year than Gallo, Gay, and Parsons, and is by far the more versatile and defender of the bunch, yet he continues to go massively underrated.

What a shame.

Monta is beast
08-10-2013, 01:33 PM
PER is a joke

Bruno
08-10-2013, 01:34 PM
Shawn Marion had a better PER last year than Gallo, Gay, and Parsons, and is by far the more versatile and defender of the bunch, yet he continues to go massively underrated.

What a shame.
i was thinking about this as well. although gallo had a bigger role and topped him in ws/48. i may end up voting matrix eventually.

ricky recon
08-10-2013, 01:46 PM
PER is a joke

It's actually a very impressive statistic created by a very knowledgeable individual, that is probably the best single statistic to measure one's impact and efficiency (mainly on offense).

Chacarron
08-10-2013, 02:06 PM
am i the only one btw who thinks leonard was a HUGE reach at 6? i was thinking 9/10 for him

He is the new love child of PSD. Better get used to it.

Anyway, I like Danilo here.

Mile High Champ
08-10-2013, 02:20 PM
It's actually a very impressive statistic created by a very knowledgeable individual, that is probably the best single statistic to measure one's impact and efficiency (mainly on offense).

John Hollinger is that you? Don't you have a team to run?

IversonIsKrazy
08-10-2013, 02:22 PM
Gay then Gallo, then Parsons

JOhnnyTHaJet
08-10-2013, 03:27 PM
Isn't Paul George the 4th best SF in the league? Is he really considered a 2 guard at 6' 9"?

To me its

Lebron
KD
Melo
George
Iggy
Kahwi
Deng
Gallo
Gay
Parsons
So no Pierce? Riggghhhttt...

SLY WILLIAMS
08-10-2013, 03:30 PM
4) Andre Iguodala?????

If he is considered a sf he may have been the 3rd best sf on the Nuggets last season. I'm a Iggy fan but he is so over rated on this board.

Iggz53
08-10-2013, 03:38 PM
All those voting for Rudy Gay...do you realize that his team's record got BETTER after simply getting rid of him for an average role player? Because I can't see how any top 10 player in his position can make his team better by leaving. Really says something about how invaluable he is to a team.

tredigs
08-10-2013, 03:41 PM
It's actually a very impressive statistic created by a very knowledgeable individual, that is probably the best single statistic to measure one's impact and efficiency (mainly on offense).

I don't know, I'd already take WS/WP/RAPM as well as a few others over PER, and some of that definitely does have to do with the "mainly on offense" factor.


Gayyyy. Most clutch player out of the list and also he got his act together towards the end of the season and was efficient then. 18, 6 & 3 can't be ignored.

+/- 5 points with < 3 minutes left, Gay was 18/58, Gallo 15/38. So, at least by that measure he sure wasn't. I've seen Gay hit some very clutch shots, but I've also seen him take a ton.

I think 18/6/3 can be ignored, and really when was he efficient last year? Last 10 games? Not shooting wise, I just looked and saw 6 of those games <43% from the field.

I'd go Gallo, then it's close between Batum/AK/Marion/Gay/Parsons to close.

tredigs
08-10-2013, 03:48 PM
All those voting for Rudy Gay...do you realize that his team's record got BETTER after simply getting rid of him for an average role player? Because I can't see how any top 10 player in his position can make his team better by leaving. Really says something about how invaluable he is to a team.

Their offense also unsurprisingly got better, and they went farther in the playoffs then they had since they started the franchise in Vancouver. It was literally the perfect situation for him as a player (great defense, post scorers + a capable point), and he still made them struggle. He's basically the King of proving why advanced stats have merit.

ricky recon
08-10-2013, 03:50 PM
John Hollinger is that you? Don't you have a team to run?

No, I am not John Hollinger, even though your sarcasm hardly deserves a reply.

PER is a very well thought out statistic, and that's why every statistical database has adopted it or something extremely close to it.

The fact of the matter is Shawn Marion is more efficient per minute than any of these guys, and his ability to guard four positions extremely well, especially when it comes down to guarding their best scorer, makes him far more valuable as a player for the upcoming season. He is the best defender, his AST/TO ratio is better than these guys, his eFG% is better, oh and here are some defense and rebounding statistics that might tickle your pickle.

2012-2013:

TRB%
Marion 14.5%
Gay 10.2%
Gallo 8.9%
Parsons 8.3%

RPG
Marion 7.8
Gay 6.2
Parons 5.3
Gallo 5.2

DRtg (Individual's/Team's)
Marion 104/106.5
Gay 101/100.5*
Parons 108/106.1
Gallo 107/105.1
*Grizzlies Stats

Basically, Marion is the superior rebounder, and it isn't close. Defensively, he guard a wider variety of players, and is the only one out of the bunch who makes his team's defense better, by a long-shot I might add. The DRtg statistics basically prove that when Marion is on the court, his team's defense and DRtg is much better. When the other players step off the court, the team defense is better. Quite the contrast if you ask me.

Marion is better, and the statistics prove that. Call me John Hollinger (Which I guess is supposed to be an insult/stab?) but that evades the fact Marion is the best forward of the bunch.

Ebbs
08-10-2013, 04:01 PM
Parsons because he is on my redraft team.

But seriously he is on par with Gallo for efficiency and output and better defensively. He is way more efficient than Gay.

tredigs
08-10-2013, 04:11 PM
Personal D rating versus Team D rating, if I'm not mistaken doesn't account for who else is on the court with you at the time. Depending on your minutes and how great the bench defenders are on your team, this is easily skewed. Marion is a good defender, but Kirilenko in my opinion is better. He does show better on Synergy and RAPM also.

But Marion was very solid last year (and most years), he'd be a fine choice.


Parsons because he is on my redraft team.

But seriously he is on par with Gallo for efficiency and output and better defensively. He is way more efficient than Gay.

Better defensively than Gallo. Ya think?

WadeKobe
08-10-2013, 04:12 PM
It's actually a very impressive statistic created by a very knowledgeable individual, that is probably the best single statistic to measure one's impact and efficiency (mainly on offense).

Actually, as chronz and I have both stated, it is an outdated/outmoded statistic in basketball. The problem is that the media (ESPN) is always lagging behind the research.

I am going to use baseball as an example. The moneyball Oakland A's were in what, 2000? WAR has been around for 10 years, and last year was the first time it got serious discussion on ESPN. And even though Tom Tango has come up with a statistic called wOBA, which is the single most accurate offensive statistic in baseball, ESPN still uses OPS. They're at least 5 years behind, if not more.

The same is true for basketball. Hollinger released his PER in 2006 and ESPN first started using it widely and promoting it in 2011. Again, around 5 years behind.

In that time, Hollinger's PER has been shown to not do a good job explaining or predicting player performance year to year. Check out this three-part series.

http://sportskeptic.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/nba-retrodiction-contest-part-1-what-happened/

Likewise, while Hollinger is no doubt a smart guy who probably knows more about math and basketball than I do, I agree with David Berri when he says that the weights chosen for PER don't appear to have a mathematical foundation in relation to wins or point differential. This, not surprisingly, it doesn't correlate strongly with wins.

Hollinger attempts to create value within his formula for "shot creation" by setting the "break even" point at 30.4% shooting. Which means, while someone who shoots 32% from the field would be below average according to PER after the league average adjustment given they shoot a league average number of shots... That player can boost their PER simply by taking more shots. However, quite the opposite, we know that if a team takes more shots at 32% it will lose more often, not win more often. So, simply, this is very problematic.

Lastly, PER doesn't communicate meaningful information. The goal of every statistic should be to communicate information to its audience.

For instance, TS% tells us how many points a player scores every time they take a shot. Rebound% tells us how many of the a available rebounds on the floor the player grabbed. Win Shares and Wins Produced attempt to tell you how many wins a player contributed to their teams. RAPM attempts to tell is what the player's individual contribution was to theirteam's point differential. What does PER tell us?

20% TRB is worth 20% of the rebounds a available.
50% TS is worth one point for every shot a player took.
1 Win is worth one Win.
+5 is worth five points ahead of your opponent.
22.5 PER is worth what??? 50% more efficiency than average? Which is worth what?

Luckily, Hollinger has attempted to tell us what it is worth by giving us a formula to convert PER to wins. Yay! Except, it doesn't do a very good job.

First of all, it doesn't account for defense. So, you're telling me that a player's win contribution is 100% offense, except for steals and blocks and defensive rebounds? Secondly, it tells methe Miami Heat were a 62 win team last year, which is very good and agrees with WP and WS, but the problem is WS and WP are giving you total wins, so they are quite accurate. EWA, on the other hand, is giving you Wins Above Replacement. So, the Heat won 62 more games than a team of replacement players would have won? So, a team of replacement players would have won 4 games? So, a replacement player is worth 10% of an average player?

Well, no, because Hollinger's formula says that a replacement player is worth about 70% of an average player... So where did the math to wrong? By using 70% of average for replacement level, he found that such a team so composed would win 10% of the average number of games. Yikes! So, the problem would seem to be either in the formula or in the statistic itself.

Given that all the other evidence suggests the problem lies in PER, I am inclined to agree.

Ebbs
08-10-2013, 04:38 PM
Personal D rating versus Team D rating, if I'm not mistaken doesn't account for who else is on the court with you at the time. Depending on your minutes and how great the bench defenders are on your team, this is easily skewed. Marion is a good defender, but Kirilenko in my opinion is better. He does show better on Synergy and RAPM also.

But Marion was very solid last year (and most years), he'd be a fine choice.



Better defensively than Gallo. Ya think?

Not sure if you're sayig that's obvious or you disagree.

tredigs
08-10-2013, 04:42 PM
Not sure if you're sayig that's obvious or you disagree.

Neither, but I think it might be a tough sell to say Parsons is better on D.

KnicksorBust
08-10-2013, 05:00 PM
I went with Kirilenko but looking at the votes I wish I could go back and vote Gallinari just to prevent Rudy Gay from winning.

nycericanguy
08-10-2013, 05:09 PM
MEM was offering Gay for Gallo, DEN immediately turned it down.

That's all you need to know. Gallo was much better than Gay last year and was the #1/1b option on a 57 win team. Ridiculous that Gay is winning.

Gallo needed 12.3 FGA to score 16.2ppg

Gay needed almost 17 shots to score 18!

Gallo PER 36 - 17.9ppg 5.7rpg

Gay PER 36 - 18.2ppg 6.1rpg

But again, for basically the same production, Gay needed more than 3 more shot attempts. Not to mention Gallo is the better defender.

Sadds The Gr8
08-10-2013, 07:16 PM
lol Gay is winning...people who voted for him should watch games and not sportscenter highlights.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-10-2013, 07:46 PM
No no no gay. Stop watching highlights and how many points/dunks he has. Memphis for better after losing him.

Id pick AK/Marion/Batum/Gallo all over him

Bruno
08-10-2013, 07:47 PM
I went with Kirilenko but looking at the votes I wish I could go back and vote Gallinari just to prevent Rudy Gay from winning.
I like AKs argument too. last few spots are tough here.


lol Gay is winning...people who voted for him should watch games and not sportscenter highlights.
x2.

I saw Gay live when Goodman took on Drew league in Long Beach during the lock out. Great talent, great one on one player. But in the real world of a 5v5 he's just not dominant or efficient.

ChickenSouvlaki
08-10-2013, 07:48 PM
Better defensively than Gallo. Ya think?

Gallo is pretty good defensively... Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.


I got Gallo here. Definitely better than Gay.

Sportfan
08-10-2013, 09:21 PM
Sf is probably the deepest position after Pg. it's close between SF/PF but the top talent at SF Is superior

For the sake of credibility of this poll I hope Green is listed as a PF Even though he's been SF The past 2 years and this upcoming season

Gallo/Kirilenko/Gay is how I'd rank the top
10. Parsons is wayyyyy too overrated. I don't like Gay but putting up 20 ppg isn't easy. That's assuming Green isn't eligible. Batum and Parsons are 11/12

JusDBasics
08-10-2013, 10:18 PM
I watched every Raptors game since Rudy was traded and to me there's no doubt in my mind (nor should there be in anyones!) that Rudy is better than not only Gallo, but should've been at least #6 on this list. Kawhi and Deng should not be ahead of him, ESPECIALLY Kawhi. This aint 2015 where Kawhi is already developed.

Bruno
08-10-2013, 11:08 PM
I watched every Raptors game since Rudy was traded and to me there's no doubt in my mind (nor should there be in anyones!) that Rudy is better than not only Gallo, but should've been at least #6 on this list. Kawhi and Deng should not be ahead of him, ESPECIALLY Kawhi. This aint 2015 where Kawhi is already developed.
you don't post better post-season numbers than Duncan and Parker unless you're developed, effective, efficient and a part of their big three. the spurs big three is duncan, parker and leonard.

Sadds The Gr8
08-11-2013, 12:40 AM
I watched every Raptors game since Rudy was traded and to me there's no doubt in my mind (nor should there be in anyones!) that Rudy is better than not only Gallo, but should've been at least #6 on this list. Kawhi and Deng should not be ahead of him, ESPECIALLY Kawhi. This aint 2015 where Kawhi is already developed.

Kawhi "undeveloped" is better than Rudy "developed".

seikou8
08-11-2013, 02:21 AM
Kawhi "undeveloped" is better than Rudy "developed".

facts

sunsfan88
08-11-2013, 04:53 AM
Are we gonna do re do this thread now?

Perhaps OP should leave the poll open for more than a day....he only makes the next 2-3 days after anyway.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-11-2013, 11:29 AM
Are we gonna do re do this thread now?

Perhaps OP should leave the poll open for more than a day....he only makes the next 2-3 days after anyway.

why? do you wanna take back your Gay vote hahah

nycericanguy
08-11-2013, 11:52 AM
I went with Kirilenko but looking at the votes I wish I could go back and vote Gallinari just to prevent Rudy Gay from winning.

On what basis can you justify AK48 over Gallo or Parons or Batum or even Gay?

I mean he put up some decent numbers, but he did so on a horrible team too. Is being a big contributor on a 57 win team worth nothing?

Just like people were voting VC at SG when he only played 23mpg on a lottery team! I mean efficient yes, but in much smaller volume than someone like JR for instance who was a key guy playing big minutes on a 54 win team.

mrblisterdundee
08-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Isn't Paul George the 4th best SF in the league? Is he really considered a 2 guard at 6' 9"?

He's 6'8", and that's in basketball shoes. Yes; that's short enough to play shooting guard. He's basically the same type of player as Tracy McGrady, playing shooting guard and small forward, but primarily becoming a large shooting guard.

North Yorker
08-11-2013, 02:18 PM
He's 6'8", and that's in basketball shoes. Yes; that's short enough to play shooting guard. He's basically the same type of player as Tracy McGrady, playing shooting guard and small forward, but primarily becoming a large shooting guard.

He's 6'10"

Jamiecballer
08-11-2013, 02:27 PM
lol Gay is winning...people who voted for him should watch games and not sportscenter highlights.

well said.

Theyhateme459
08-11-2013, 02:42 PM
Dano

Greg.
08-11-2013, 04:00 PM
Don't know how you're gonna do the tiebreaker but, I've voted in most of the polls and missed this one. I would have voted for Gallinari though

D-Leethal
08-11-2013, 07:06 PM
Gallo

D-Leethal
08-11-2013, 07:07 PM
PFs will be interesting

ManRam
08-11-2013, 07:09 PM
I'd vote Gallo over Gay here

Iggz53
08-11-2013, 07:52 PM
I'll gladly change my vote from Batum to Gallo. I don't think there's a significant difference between the two but they're both easily above Gay imo.

Kashmir13579
08-11-2013, 09:59 PM
I would've been the tie-breaker in Gallo's favor, if i got my vote in.

mrblisterdundee
08-11-2013, 10:04 PM
Batum can pass, play d, and shoot the 3. He's the best role player here. I still think he's better off at SG though.

It could work, if Portland was able to trade Matthews. Portland would have a big back court, which I like from a defensive standpoint. The only thing I worry about is whether Batum can handle and protect the rock well enough.

mrblisterdundee
08-11-2013, 10:06 PM
He's 6'10"

I keep seeing 6'8" everywhere, then I see he shot up to 6'10" last summer – I don't know who to believe.

North Yorker
08-11-2013, 10:48 PM
I keep seeing 6'8" everywhere, then I see he shot up to 6'10" last summer – I don't know who to believe.

Websites like espn rarely update the pre-draft measurements of players. It's easy to see when he's standing on the court and is as tall as the PFs.

Radio Rakeem
08-12-2013, 12:51 AM
How is this even a tie?!?!?! You're telling me right now...if you were to start a team...and you had a choice between Gallo and Gay...people would actually choose Gallo over Gay??! Are you serious?

All i got to say is don't forget to puff puff pass after you guys are done with the **** you're smoking lol

tredigs
08-12-2013, 01:12 AM
How is this even a tie?!?!?! You're telling me right now...if you were to start a team...and you had a choice between Gallo and Gay...people would actually choose Gallo over Gay??! Are you serious?

All i got to say is don't forget to puff puff pass after you guys are done with the **** you're smoking lol
Lmfao - Gay was offered for Gallo earlier this season. Nuggets reportedly immediately turned it down.

Radio Rakeem
08-12-2013, 01:18 AM
Lmfao - Gay was offered for Gallo earlier this season. Nuggets reportedly immediately turned it down.

contract, team needs, player meshing, talent all come into consideration when making a trade...just because they turned a trade down doesn't mean ones the better player than the other, it can also mean that certain aspects of the player didn't match up in the direction one team was heading and vice versa

tredigs
08-12-2013, 01:27 AM
contract, team needs, player meshing, talent all come into consideration when making a trade...just because they turned a trade down doesn't mean ones the better player than the other, it can also mean that certain aspects of the player didn't match up in the direction one team was heading and vice versa
Gay's the poster boy at SF for talent > reality. He's Monta Ellis.

dalton749
08-12-2013, 02:37 AM
Gay LED Toronto to a 500 record after the trade. The rest are role players

sunsfan88
08-12-2013, 06:38 AM
Lmfao - Gay was offered for Gallo earlier this season. Nuggets reportedly immediately turned it down.

The same Nuggets team that gave McGee $10M/yr contract? The same Nuggets team that fired their HC and GM after winning awards for doing the best at their jobs?

WadeKobe
08-12-2013, 08:06 AM
The same Nuggets team that gave McGee $10M/yr contract? The same Nuggets team that fired their HC and GM after winning awards for doing the best at their jobs?

Whoa whoa whoa. First of all ... McGee is a talented big man, and there are only so many of those in the league who are available at one time. So they are worth money.

Secondly, George Karl was a bad coach.

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/05/09/why-george-karl-isnt-coach-of-the-year/

Lastly, which one is it? Did Denver's GM do a good job, or is he an idiot for turning down the trade? I am confused.... Lol.

Guppyfighter
08-12-2013, 10:01 AM
I can't believe Sunsfan88 is bashing Masai. The guy is a genius and is regarded as one around the league.

ManRam
08-12-2013, 10:55 AM
How is this even a tie?!?!?! You're telling me right now...if you were to start a team...and you had a choice between Gallo and Gay...people would actually choose Gallo over Gay??! Are you serious?

Absolutely. I will throw in the caveat that I think people underrate him defensively, but offensively all he is an an inefficient high-volume scorer. He took 17 shots last year to score 18 points a game...and if his biggest strength is his scoring, well, PASS. He was a little better in Toronto than Memphis this year, but that's mainly because he was absolutely putrid in Memphis.

Gallo is a better defender and a better offensive player. It's clear as day to me.

nycericanguy
08-12-2013, 11:35 AM
contract, team needs, player meshing, talent all come into consideration when making a trade...just because they turned a trade down doesn't mean ones the better player than the other, it can also mean that certain aspects of the player didn't match up in the direction one team was heading and vice versa

I think we could all agree that DEN desperately needs a #1 scoring option, and they clearly did not see Gay as that guy. They'd be trading a SF for a SF, so I don't see how "meshing" would be a problem.

As far as contract DEN would have to had thrown in another contract, and Gallo's deal runs 2 years longer.

Bottom line, if DEN saw Gay as an upgrade they would have made that deal.

Gallo is simply the better player on BOTH ends, I don't think that's seriously debatable to anyone

dalton749
08-12-2013, 05:21 PM
gay> gallo
put him in a George karl offense and his numbers would be inflated to near all star level because hes the better transition player