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View Full Version : Knicks sign Beno Udrih



leprechaun5
08-08-2013, 10:19 AM
Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone 15m
Beno Udrih will sign a one-year deal with the Knicks according to a league source.
:)

NYJ - NYY
08-08-2013, 10:20 AM
approved

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 10:22 AM
omg

29$JerZ
08-08-2013, 10:22 AM
Pablo Prigioni - Beno Udrih
JR Smith - Tim Hardaway
Metta World Peace - CJ Leslie
Amar'e Stoudemire - Jeremy Tyler
Kenyon Martin

That's our bench. Not bad.

FYL_McVeezy
08-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Nice pickup.....

Contrary to the resident genuises in the PSD NBA forum....the Knicks are putting together nice depth on the bench :clap:

SteBO
08-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Solid pickup for NY.....one of the concerns I would've had for the Knicks if I were a Knick fan was the back up PG position. This move helps fill that gap.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 10:26 AM
Discounted.

:dance:

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 10:26 AM
Solid pickup for NY.....one of the concerns I would've had for the Knicks if I were a Knick fan was the back up PG position. This move helps fill that gap.

Agreed. Now we just need another C.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 10:27 AM
Pablo Prigioni - Beno Udrih
JR Smith - Tim Hardaway
Metta World Peace - CJ Leslie
Amar'e Stoudemire - Jeremy Tyler
Kenyon Martin

That's our bench. Not bad.

:puke:

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 10:29 AM
Knicks are stacked... huge value signing here, guy made $7m last year, and honestly he's probably better than Felton though he won't start.

A legit 12-13 deep right now. Couldn't be happier with this offseason. I know everyone is pushing NY down to 5th, but this is a team that has a lot more depth now to deal with injuries.

Felton/Beno/Prigs
Shump/JR
Melo/MWP/Hardaway/Leslie
Bargs/Amare/Kmart
Chandler/Tyler

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 10:31 AM
Ian Begley @IanBegley about 9 minutes ago
MEM was a strong suitor for Beno. PHI showed interest as well. A Beno friend said chance to win in with #Knicks was a deciding factor.

NYJ - NYY
08-08-2013, 10:33 AM
cant believe me i beat justin to comment on this thread... and like the signing... solid depth... cant wait for this season!!

ATX
08-08-2013, 10:38 AM
Good move for the Knicks. They will have a solid team next season.

teddygreen17
08-08-2013, 10:39 AM
Now Knicks won't have problems scoring at all...but can the bench provide D?

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 10:41 AM
Now Knicks won't have problems scoring at all...but can the bench provide D?

Prigs/Beno
JR/Hardaway
MWP/Leslie
Kmart
Amare/Tyler

I'd say that's a pretty good defensive and offensive bench. That's a decent starting lineup if anything.

NYSpirit1
08-08-2013, 10:51 AM
I'd say overall now with tremendous depth the Knicks are still the #2 team in the East. Younger, healthier and core is more seasoned.

29$JerZ
08-08-2013, 10:58 AM
Jason Kidd - Beno Udrih
James White - Tim Hardaway Jr
Quentin Richardson - CJ Leslie
Steve Novak - Metta World Peace
Chris Copeland - Andrea Bargnani
Kurt Thomas/Rasheed Wallace/Marcus Camby - Jeremy Tyler

Outside of Kidd we've literally upgraded every else. Good off-season considering how strapped for cash we were.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 11:08 AM
Very solid signing. This Bench can rival just about any bench in the NBA

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 11:09 AM
The Starting 5 are pretty good as well

HOZ THE KNICK
08-08-2013, 11:24 AM
we need a veteran center and we will be ready to compete for a chip, this team is better than the 54 win team we had last year.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 11:31 AM
we need a veteran center and we will be ready to compete for a chip, this team is better than the 54 win team we had last year.

Without a doubt.

FYL_McVeezy
08-08-2013, 11:45 AM
This must be a good move.....

the resident trolls haven't made their rounds yet :laugh:

JLynn943
08-08-2013, 11:59 AM
loved Beno in Sacramento. wish he would have gone somewhere where he'd play more, but it's a very good signing by the Knicks imo. Hopefully he gets some minutes.

colinskik
08-08-2013, 12:01 PM
Bench is looking excellent.

Knicks' success depends on how Melo gels with all the new acquisitions. Or should I say how they gel with Melo

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 12:04 PM
Knicks are stacked... huge value signing here, guy made $7m last year, and honestly he's probably better than Felton though he won't start.

A legit 12-13 deep right now. Couldn't be happier with this offseason. I know everyone is pushing NY down to 5th, but this is a team that has a lot more depth now to deal with injuries.

Felton/Beno/Prigs
Shump/JR
Melo/MWP/Hardaway/Leslie
Bargs/Amare/Kmart
Chandler/Tyler

With this squad, I welcome some injuries. I wanna see what guys like Beno, Hardaway and Tyler can do for us.

Grunwald taking an offseason that looks primed to be chicken **** and making some dank *** chicken salad once again.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 12:04 PM
Can't wait to see that lefty bank shot in action.

uprightciti
08-08-2013, 12:09 PM
deeeep bench.

love this signing.

people sleeping on the knicks this year. all we need to do is get tyler to work with chandler on d and we can play with the best of them.

vs. heat weakness = lebron
vs. bulls weakness = possibly pg/nothing
vs. pacers weakness = interior
vs. nets weakness = lol nothing

BHF
08-08-2013, 12:09 PM
Jason Kidd - Beno Udrih
James White - Tim Hardaway Jr
Quentin Richardson - CJ Leslie
Steve Novak - Metta World Peace
Chris Copeland - Andrea Bargnani
Kurt Thomas/Rasheed Wallace/Marcus Camby - Jeremy Tyler

Outside of Kidd we've literally upgraded every else. Good off-season considering how strapped for cash we were.

Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

29$JerZ
08-08-2013, 12:33 PM
Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

I agree too but I'm hoping he proves me wrong. Im not a big fan of Andrea's game at all.
He should at the ver least be able to score as much as Cope would given 20 minutes+y

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 12:35 PM
loved Beno in Sacramento. wish he would have gone somewhere where he'd play more, but it's a very good signing by the Knicks imo. Hopefully he gets some minutes.

I would imagine he and his agent were reassured that he will get PT if he signed for a 1 year minimum deal. Woody nearly had two PGs on the floor at all times last year.


Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

He could be. Just cause you don't thrive in one situation as an injured apple doesn't mean you can't in another as a healthy orange.

colinskik
08-08-2013, 12:36 PM
Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

Over Copeland? Yes, he is. If you put his playoff performance against the Pacers aside, Copeland hardly played, and when he did he looked very shaky offensively and non-existent on D. Plus, he'll be 30 in March.

colinskik
08-08-2013, 12:37 PM
With this squad, I welcome some injuries. I wanna see what guys like Beno, Hardaway and Tyler can do for us.

Grunwald taking an offseason that looks primed to be chicken **** and making some dank *** chicken salad once again.

I'm hoping for better eats than that.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 12:40 PM
So let me guess, we're still primed to be the 5th seed right?

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 12:42 PM
So let me guess, we're still primed to be the 5th seed right?

I think 6th now.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2013, 12:44 PM
Pablo Prigioni - Beno Udrih
JR Smith - Tim Hardaway
Metta World Peace - CJ Leslie
Amar'e Stoudemire - Jeremy Tyler
Kenyon Martin

That's our bench. Not bad.

Is Prigoni really > Beno?

This seems like kind of an under-the-radar signing that could play out very well for the Knicks. So is Bargs...

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 12:47 PM
Jason Kidd - Beno Udrih
James White - Tim Hardaway Jr
Quentin Richardson - CJ Leslie
Steve Novak - Metta World Peace
Chris Copeland - Andrea Bargnani
Kurt Thomas/Rasheed Wallace/Marcus Camby - Jeremy Tyler

Outside of Kidd we've literally upgraded every else. Good off-season considering how strapped for cash we were.

Kidd had flashes last year, but over the course of a full year Beno is an upgrade. Kidd looked shot for a good portion of last year and looked like he didn't belong on an NBA court in the playoffs.

And Bargs is def an upgrade over Copeland. Cope I think benefited from being an unknown, like Lin, teams didn't really plan for him. He's decent, but I'd take a younger Bargs who has proven he can score 20ppg+ over an unproven guy like Cope.

And Bargs post defense is much better as well.

Even in the postseason Cope only averaged 4ppg on 40%... people are getting a lil carried away with the Cope love...he hit some key shots in the IND series though I give him that.

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 12:48 PM
I'd say overall now with tremendous depth the Knicks are still the #2 team in the East. Younger, healthier and core is more seasoned.

LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 12:48 PM
Is Prigoni really > Beno?

This seems like kind of an under-the-radar signing that could play out very well for the Knicks.

I think Beno is better, and considering age I think he'll get more time. NY should keep Prigs fresh for the playoffs, his pressure defense can really help come playoff time.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 12:50 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

That remains to be seen justin. Only teams you can say that definitively is with Miami and Indy, NY was pretty good last year no matter what the media will try and tell you.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 12:52 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

Analysts said the same thing last year and we got the two spot.

;)

And bench means very little in the playoffs? :laugh2: If it wasn't for your bench player hitting a big shot, you wouldn't have repeated...

MonroeFAN
08-08-2013, 12:53 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

Melo is better than Deron, George, and Rose as it stands. Not sure what point you're trying to make?

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Analysts said the same thing last year and we got the two spot.

;)
And they couldn't make it out the 2nd round. Plus, they took a step back this offseason signing bargs, which will make melo play more the 3 taking away what little advantage the knicks had last season. 4 contenders in the east are chicago, miami, brooklyn, and indy.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Analysts said the same thing last year and we got the two spot.

;)

And bench means very little in the playoffs? :laugh2: If it wasn't for your bench player hitting a big shot, you wouldn't have repeated...

#7th seed in fact, never forget.

Mr Costanza
08-08-2013, 12:54 PM
omg

You really go out of your way to ruin this forum.

If you don't care just stay out of the thread.

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Melo is better than Deron, George, and Rose as it stands. Not sure what point you're trying to make?

Disagree. Melo can't get his team past the 2nd round. I would take George and rose over melo easily. Deron is a choker too.

Kashmir13579
08-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Wow! i can't believe it! Amazing signing.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 12:56 PM
Disagree. Melo can't get his team past the 2nd round. I would take George and rose over melo easily. Deron is a choker too.

He got his team past the 2nd round in Denver, whats your point here?

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 12:56 PM
He got his team past the 2nd round in Denver, whats your point here?

Once in 10 years? wow.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 12:58 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

Keep saying it, it doesn't make it anymore true.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Once in 10 years? wow.

#dealwithit

I said the same thing last year, Knicks are here to stay.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Once in 10 years? wow.

Stop trolling.

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 12:59 PM
Good depth signing as the 3rd PG. Woodson likes the 2 PG rotations and with JR out early on Beno will get some time. Still don't see them as anything more than a 2nd round exit though.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 12:59 PM
Good depth signing as the 3rd PG. Woodson likes the 2 PG rotations and with JR out early on Beno will get some time. Still don't see them as anything more than a 2nd round exit though.

we know you don't.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 12:59 PM
And they couldn't make it out the 2nd round. Plus, they took a step back this offseason signing bargs, which will make melo play more the 3 taking away what little advantage the knicks had last season. 4 contenders in the east are chicago, miami, brooklyn, and indy.

You're right, we didn't make it out of the second round. Why? Because our BENCH was terrible. So like I said, bench does matter in the playoffs. And getting Bargs for Novak and Camby is going to be more helpful than what they did for us last year, if he is healthy. And Woodson already said Melo will still be playing the four, so we still will have that advantage.

To say the Knicks are not a contender in the EAST, you're out of your mind.

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 01:01 PM
we know you don't.

And we know you do so what's your point.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 01:02 PM
Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

I know this seems to be the PSD attitude but I think people might be jumping to conclusions too quickly.

Every Player fits into a certain role. There are GoTo guy's, Game Changers, Role players, and Specialty guy's

Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Drose, Durrant and such are GoTo Guy's. Stars that you give the ball to and watch them take over a game.
Game Changers are guy's like Hibbert, Lopez, Duncan, Deng, and such, these guy's don't take over a game per se' but are still star's that can win it for you
Role Players are guy's like Birdman, Kmart, Stephenson, Noah, and Barg's. These guy's could be starters or bench players but their skillset is critical to winning teams.
Now before anyone thinks I am comparing Noah to Bargnani...I AM NOT. What I am saying is that Noah play's a certain role. His Hustle, Desire, Tenacity and defensive prowess makes him invaluable to the Bulls. Noah would also fit into the "Game Changer" role as well. He does change the outcome of every game he play's in.
Barg's is NOT a GOTO guy obviously or a Gamechanger. What he brings to the Knicks is completely different than what he was expected to bring to the Raptors. Toronto and their fans wanted this number one overall pick to live up to that billing. He never did. He never will.
What Andrea brings to the Knicks is a 3-4 option and his skillset is exactly what the KNICKS needed. He is a good passing big man, a good shooter and a floor stretcher. If the Knicks are counting on Bargs to take over the game...Not gonna happen.
Specialty guy's are guy's like Novak, Terry, Blatche, Evans.....They usually play well on one side of the ball. But are very good at what they do.

Exchanging Novak for Barg's is a clear upgrade for NYK. Barg's not known for his defense will look like Noah compared to Novak. Novacaine, was probably the worst defender in the NBA. Plus Barg's not the best rebounder can rebound a bit, Novak zero. Barg's has a nice postup game, Novak.....none.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:03 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

Outside of Miami, you can't say those teams are definitively better than the Knicks at all. The same way you can't say the Knicks are definitively better than those teams. You can talk paper arguments all you want, and you'll probably be wrong again.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:05 PM
We were 2 minutes from having game 7 at our house despite Melo playing with a torn labrum and JR playing with a busted patella tendon that needed surgery, Amare rusty as hell after his second surgery and with Tyson playing his worst ball of the season after missing over a month with a busted neck leading right into the playoffs and guys like Kidd/Novak and even Kmart in that series playing beneath rock bottom.

You would have think the Knicks had all their guns blazing and lost in round 2. Indy had their two top guns playing out of their minds, and as a team were 1000% healthy and playing to their absolute peak (probably above it given the flukey way they were making it rain from 3) and could STILL barely squeak past an injury ravaged Knicks team playing 10 notches below their peak level.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 01:06 PM
Good depth signing as the 3rd PG. Woodson likes the 2 PG rotations and with JR out early on Beno will get some time. Still don't see them as anything more than a 2nd round exit though.

Last year no one saw them getting to the second round. Times a Changin'

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Outside of Miami, you can't say those teams are definitively better than the Knicks at all. The same way you can't say the Knicks are definitively better than those teams. You can talk paper arguments all you want, and you'll probably be wrong again.

Absolutely.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 01:09 PM
Last year the Knicks would suck because they were old. Now they are much younger.

The Knicks will never win because they have no defense. Now they have defensive minded players.

There has to be a factory somewhere where these excuses get cranked out daily.

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 01:10 PM
Last year the Knicks would suck because they were old. Now they are much younger.

The Knicks will never win because they have no defense. Now they have defensive minded players.

There has to be a factory somewhere where these excuses get cranked out daily.

lol

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:12 PM
lol

Of those 100K posts have you ever put serious thought into any of them or just regurgitated troll nonsense?

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 01:15 PM
Wow! i can't believe it! Amazing signing.

Solid move that will make the bench deep.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2013, 01:17 PM
Disagree. Melo can't get his team past the 2nd round. I would take George and rose over melo easily. Deron is a choker too.

My opinion is that I don't think George could make it out of the first round with the Knicks roster from last season, he shot 41% from the field en-route to 17 PPG during the season. Scoring is not the end all for this argument, and George is one heck of a piece, but he's not this superstar everyone thinks he is yet.


I don't think Rose is better either. It's about as close as you could come to having a realistic argument, but I don't buy into the fact that Melo couldn't have done the same thing with a defensive powerhouse roster and coach. The Bulls obviously weren't better without Rose, but it wasn't a substantial drop off.

Melo is unfairly hated on this site. Wade couldn't do it on his own, Durant hasn't done it on his own... why is Melo held at a higher standard? No one is claiming that he is Lebron who was able to take a team of turds to the ECF. What other players listed have been out of the 2nd round with a roster like Melo had last season?

Jaded
08-08-2013, 01:22 PM
Of those 100K posts have you ever put serious thought into any of them or just regurgitated troll nonsense?

What do you expect? About 70% of his posts are probably made up of just the word "lol".

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 01:26 PM
My opinion is that I don't think George could make it out of the first round with the Knicks roster from last season, he shot 41% from the field en-route to 17 PPG during the season. Scoring is not the end all for this argument, and George is one heck of a piece, but he's not this superstar everyone thinks he is yet.


I don't think Rose is better either. It's about as close as you could come to having a realistic argument, but I don't buy into the fact that Melo couldn't have done the same thing with a defensive powerhouse roster and coach. The Bulls obviously weren't better without Rose, but it wasn't a substantial drop off.
Rose is so much better than melo it's not even close lol.

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 01:27 PM
Last year no one saw them getting to the second round. Times a Changin'

I actually had them with at the start of last year as a possible 2nd round team depending on matchup. I thought them they would sweep the C's after I saw the matchup so I was not one of those people. I see them as slightly better this year but INDY, CHI, and BK as a lot better than last year and all those teams were fairly close.

Wouldn't shock me if they upset one of them but having to run though 2 or 3 of those teams on the way to the finals might prove to be too much.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2013, 01:28 PM
Rose is so much better than melo it's not even close lol.

Do you want people to take you seriously or not?

If your response is "i'm right, just take my word for it... and then lol" then save it, no one cares.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:28 PM
Rose is so much better than melo it's not even close lol.

You say a lot of things but don't seem to ever have the ability to back your claims with any legitimate evidence - be it theoretical or statistical. Your evidence usually consists of 'lol'.

Way to be, champ.

I think you'll break 100K posts before you provide 1 drop of insight to this forum.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 01:29 PM
lol. who cares?

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:29 PM
My opinion is that I don't think George could make it out of the first round with the Knicks roster from last season, he shot 41% from the field en-route to 17 PPG during the season. Scoring is not the end all for this argument, and George is one heck of a piece, but he's not this superstar everyone thinks he is yet.


I don't think Rose is better either. It's about as close as you could come to having a realistic argument, but I don't buy into the fact that Melo couldn't have done the same thing with a defensive powerhouse roster and coach. The Bulls obviously weren't better without Rose, but it wasn't a substantial drop off.

Melo is unfairly hated on this site. Wade couldn't do it on his own, Durant hasn't done it on his own... why is Melo held at a higher standard? No one is claiming that he is Lebron who was able to take a team of turds to the ECF. What other players listed have been out of the 2nd round with a roster like Melo had last season?

Respect.

But IMO, I think a healthy Rose is better than Melo. But I don't like to compare them because they play different positions.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:30 PM
lol. who cares?

You clicked the thread and came to post, so I'm guessing you do.

NYKnicks4511
08-08-2013, 01:30 PM
My opinion is that I don't think George could make it out of the first round with the Knicks roster from last season, he shot 41% from the field en-route to 17 PPG during the season. Scoring is not the end all for this argument, and George is one heck of a piece, but he's not this superstar everyone thinks he is yet.


I don't think Rose is better either. It's about as close as you could come to having a realistic argument, but I don't buy into the fact that Melo couldn't have done the same thing with a defensive powerhouse roster and coach. The Bulls obviously weren't better without Rose, but it wasn't a substantial drop off.

Melo is unfairly hated on this site. Wade couldn't do it on his own, Durant hasn't done it on his own... why is Melo held at a higher standard? No one is claiming that he is Lebron who was able to take a team of turds to the ECF. What other players listed have been out of the 2nd round with a roster like Melo had last season?

This is called logic, people. This guy gets it.

Melo isn't LeBron, and never will be. But to say that Paul George is better than Melo right now is asinine. Does PG have the potential to be better, sure. But objectively speaking, if Melo was on Indiana, they would have beaten the Heat last year and possibly won the 'Ship.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:31 PM
Respect.

But IMO, I think a healthy Rose is better than Melo. But I don't like to compare them because they play different positions.

I think Rose and Melo are very comparable given their roles and situations. Both are asked to shoulder a monster offensive load, neither have a legitimate #2 option to shoulder a solid chunk of the scoring load, both are high usage guys and that takes a toll on their efficiency, neither known for their defense. Rose has a better fitting team around him with a better coach and a monster defense, while Melo has the better shooters and a little more firepower on offense.

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 01:32 PM
Grunwald is an OG, amazing signing.

Jaded
08-08-2013, 01:32 PM
lol. who cares?

Well genius, obviously you care enough to post in this thread?

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:32 PM
This is called logic, people. This guy gets it.

Melo isn't LeBron, and never will be. But to say that Paul George is better than Melo right now is asinine. Does PG have the potential to be better, sure. But objectively speaking, if Melo was on Indiana, they would have beaten the Heat last year and possibly won the 'Ship.

*Justin replies with quote*

"lol"

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:33 PM
lol. who cares?

Whats in the water over in the Heat forum? Can any of you guys provide an insightful post or analysis outside of SteBo?

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 01:34 PM
This is called logic, people. This guy gets it.

Melo isn't LeBron, and never will be. But to say that Paul George is better than Melo right now is asinine. Does PG have the potential to be better, sure. But objectively speaking, if Melo was on Indiana, they would have beaten the Heat last year and possibly won the 'Ship.

:laugh:

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:35 PM
I think Rose and Melo are very comparable given their roles and situations. Both are asked to shoulder a monster offensive load, neither have a legitimate #2 option to shoulder a solid chunk of the scoring load, both are high usage guys and that takes a toll on their efficiency, neither known for their defense. Rose has a better fitting team around him with a better coach and a monster defense, while Melo has the better shooters and a little more firepower on offense.

Yeah that is true. I never thought of Rose that much better than Melo, just slightly.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:36 PM
This is called logic, people. This guy gets it.

Melo isn't LeBron, and never will be. But to say that Paul George is better than Melo right now is asinine. Does PG have the potential to be better, sure. But objectively speaking, if Melo was on Indiana, they would have beaten the Heat last year and possibly won the 'Ship.


*Justin replies with quote*

"lol"


:laugh:

Damn, close enough.

Jaded
08-08-2013, 01:36 PM
Whats in the water over in the Heat forum? Can any of you guys provide an insightful post or analysis outside of SteBo?

I respect SteBo, at least he gives credit where it's due.
Good poster with a respectable knowledge of the game, unlike those mentally challenged trolls here like this:


EXHIBIT A


:laugh:

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 01:39 PM
My opinion is that I don't think George could make it out of the first round with the Knicks roster from last season, he shot 41% from the field en-route to 17 PPG during the season. Scoring is not the end all for this argument, and George is one heck of a piece, but he's not this superstar everyone thinks he is yet.


I don't think Rose is better either. It's about as close as you could come to having a realistic argument, but I don't buy into the fact that Melo couldn't have done the same thing with a defensive powerhouse roster and coach. The Bulls obviously weren't better without Rose, but it wasn't a substantial drop off.

Melo is unfairly hated on this site. Wade couldn't do it on his own, Durant hasn't done it on his own... why is Melo held at a higher standard? No one is claiming that he is Lebron who was able to take a team of turds to the ECF. What other players listed have been out of the 2nd round with a roster like Melo had last season?

I agree with this completely, everyone needs some help, even the great LBJ. It's the people that claim he's got the best 6th man, the defensive player of the year and good all around PG in Felton and Amare then after they fail claim he had nothing to work with that bug me. Can't have it both ways.

Is this the year he does it? All I've been hearing is that the Knicks have a great starting 5 and one of the deepest benches so what more does he need? If he can't do it this year what will be the excuse now?

It's not just Melo there are quite a few guys that need to put up or shut up this year (CP3, D-Will, and Dwight) but Melo seems to get the most hate.

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 01:39 PM
I respect SteBo, at least he gives credit where it's due.
Good poster with a respectable knowledge of the game, unlike those mentally challenged trolls here like this:


EXHIBIT A

When LeBron becomes a Knick, he'll become a Knicks fans

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:40 PM
I respect SteBo, at least he gives credit where it's due.
Good poster with a respectable knowledge of the game, unlike those mentally challenged trolls here like this:


EXHIBIT A

There are a few good Heat posters, people like Justin just give them a bad name.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-08-2013, 01:40 PM
Last year the Knicks would suck because they were old. Now they are much younger.

The Knicks will never win because they have no defense. Now they have defensive minded players.

There has to be a factory somewhere where these excuses get cranked out daily.

I always like Beno as a player in the past. I have not seen him play in the last 2-3 years.

You mentioned age. I'm curious where the Knicks average age is at this point.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 01:41 PM
When LeBron becomes a Knick, he'll become a Knicks fans

**** Lebron becoming a Knick rumors

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:42 PM
I agree with this completely, everyone needs some help, even the great LBJ. It's the people that claim he's got the best 6th man, the defensive player of the year and good all around PG in Felton and Amare then after they fail claim he had nothing to work with that bug me. Can't have it both ways.

Is this the year he does it? All I've been hearing is that the Knicks have a great starting 5 and one of the deepest benches so what more does he need? If he can't do it this year what will be the excuse now?

It's not just Melo there are quite a few guys that need to put up or shut up this year (CP3, D-Will, and Dwight) but Melo seems to get the most hate.

A legit second superstar. IMO

Jaded
08-08-2013, 01:42 PM
There are a few good Heat posters, people like Justin just give them a bad name.

Yeah i know. I'm just using SteBo as the best example of a bunch of good Heat posters.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 01:42 PM
And we know you do so what's your point.

My point is that they could have bought a time machine, thrown Magic and MJ in it, cranked it back to 1989 and you would still say they are a 2nd round exit.

NYJ - NYY
08-08-2013, 01:45 PM
I agree with this completely, everyone needs some help, even the great LBJ. It's the people that claim he's got the best 6th man, the defensive player of the year and good all around PG in Felton and Amare then after they fail claim he had nothing to work with that bug me. Can't have it both ways.

Is this the year he does it? All I've been hearing is that the Knicks have a great starting 5 and one of the deepest benches so what more does he need? If he can't do it this year what will be the excuse now?

It's not just Melo there are quite a few guys that need to put up or shut up this year (CP3, D-Will, and Dwight) but Melo seems to get the most hate.


find me these people that use what that sentence said...

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:48 PM
Yeah that is true. I never thought of Rose that much better than Melo, just slightly.

I think they are at least guys who you can compare statistically without a million grains of salt. Nothing grinds my gears more than dudes on here using their favorite advanced stats to compare dudes in completely *** backwards situations, different roles, different level of elite teammates, different defenses behind them, different coaching staffs and thinking those stats are the end-all-be-all to determining who is the better basketball player.

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 01:49 PM
A legit second superstar. IMO


So are you saying the Knicks are a 2nd round exit cause he doesn't have that? I agree he doesn't have that but he does have a talented team around him. You shouldn't need a second superstar. The Mavs did it with only one and a good supporting cast, the Pistons had allstars but no superstars. The Pacers last year didn't have any superstars and the Bulls when Rose was healthy had just him. Plenty of guys have done it without 2 superstars but the perception is that Melo is a chucker and doesn't make people around him better which is why he hasn't made it further. Instead of taking 30 shots a night maybe try getting his teammates open shots and easy buckets and he might have some more success.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:50 PM
I agree with this completely, everyone needs some help, even the great LBJ. It's the people that claim he's got the best 6th man, the defensive player of the year and good all around PG in Felton and Amare then after they fail claim he had nothing to work with that bug me. Can't have it both ways.

Is this the year he does it? All I've been hearing is that the Knicks have a great starting 5 and one of the deepest benches so what more does he need? If he can't do it this year what will be the excuse now?

It's not just Melo there are quite a few guys that need to put up or shut up this year (CP3, D-Will, and Dwight) but Melo seems to get the most hate.

He has a ton of depth on his squad and good players all over the place but his robin isn't comparable to any of the top guys outside of Rose. He doesn't have the top level talent that the other guys have.

Melo isn't as good as LeBron, Durant and co., yet he's supposed to win just as much without having the elite teammates that those guys have the benefit of playing with on a nightly basis?

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:52 PM
So are you saying the Knicks are a 2nd round exit cause he doesn't have that? I agree he doesn't have that but he does have a talented team around him. You shouldn't need a second superstar. The Mavs did it with only one and a good supporting cast, the Pistons had allstars but no superstars. The Pacers last year didn't have any superstars and the Bulls when Rose was healthy had just him. Plenty of guys have done it without 2 superstars but the perception is that Melo is a chucker and doesn't make people around him better which is why he hasn't made it further. Instead of taking 30 shots a night maybe try getting his teammates open shots and easy buckets and he might have some more success.

Plenty?

You named 3. And two of them had the best D in the league behind them. The other had an aging superstar grasping his last chance at a title run and playing the best month of basketball of his storied career. Mavs are the only team comparable, so thats 1. Not plenty.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:52 PM
So are you saying the Knicks are a 2nd round exit cause he doesn't have that? I agree he doesn't have that but he does have a talented team around him. You shouldn't need a second superstar. The Mavs did it with only one and a good supporting cast, the Pistons had allstars but no superstars. The Pacers last year didn't have any superstars and the Bulls when Rose was healthy had just him. Plenty of guys have done it without 2 superstars but the perception is that Melo is a chucker and doesn't make people around him better which is why he hasn't made it further. Instead of taking 30 shots a night maybe try getting his teammates open shots and easy buckets and he might have some more success.

Oh no. I must have misread. I thought you meant to win it all. The team we have now is built to get us out of the second round. Last year we had injuries, hopefully that won't affect us this year.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:54 PM
Oh no. I must have misread. I thought you meant to win it all. The team we have now is built to get us out of the second round. Last year we had injuries, hopefully that won't affect us this year.

I don't think its a given because the East is so much better. Last year, if we had this team, I would agree with you. But its gonna be a dogfight in round 2 this year, comparable to the way the 2nd round tends to be out West. I would love to get to round 3 but losing in round 2 wouldn't be the same level of disappointment as last year because teams like Nets, Bulls, Indy are going to be every bit as good as us, and it will likely be extremely difficult to call the favorite. Last year most of us felt we were the better team and still lost because of the injuries and the way we fell apart in round 2, playing some of our worst ball of the season. Round 2 next year will be ECF level competition.

elledaddy
08-08-2013, 01:56 PM
Knicks fans need to stop looking for validation from other teams fans. **** them. The season will get played on the court and then we'll see. Tired of seeing Knicks fans pleading or basically begging for the same few dumb a*s posters to give "credit" to what the Knicks are doing or have done.

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 01:56 PM
I agree with this completely, everyone needs some help, even the great LBJ. It's the people that claim he's got the best 6th man, the defensive player of the year and good all around PG in Felton and Amare then after they fail claim he had nothing to work with that bug me. Can't have it both ways.

Is this the year he does it? All I've been hearing is that the Knicks have a great starting 5 and one of the deepest benches so what more does he need? If he can't do it this year what will be the excuse now?

It's not just Melo there are quite a few guys that need to put up or shut up this year (CP3, D-Will, and Dwight) but Melo seems to get the most hate.

Melo has a very good cast around him this year. Last year it looked decent on paper but then Camby, Sheed, Kurt rarely played, and Shump & Amare missed most of the year.

But really Melo for the most part, has had good role players around him, the problem has always been getting him a 2nd star. Outside of AI for 1 year, he's never had that. Billups was the closest thing, and that's when they went to the WCF.

MIA is the clear favorite, NY, IND, CHI & BK are all kinda stacked together. It's all going to come down to how the supporting casts play. I mean if JR comes out and shoots 26% in the playoffs again obviously it's going to be hard for Melo to lead NY to the ECF. Dirk needed really great playoff runs for Terry, Marion & Barea to win the ship.

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 01:56 PM
My point is that they could have bought a time machine, thrown Magic and MJ in it, cranked it back to 1989 and you would still say they are a 2nd round exit.

Well no that's not true at all. I must have missed that offseason when you signed them.

Just cause I don't think the Knicks are contenders doesn't mean I think if that MJ and Magic couldn't lead them to one (if there was some magical time machine) but cool story bro.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 01:56 PM
I don't think its a given because the East is so much better. Last year, if we had this team, I would agree with you. But its gonna be a dogfight in round 2 this year, comparable to the way the 2nd round tends to be out West. I would love to get to round 3 but losing in round 2 wouldn't be the same level of disappointment as last year because teams like Nets, Bulls, Indy are going to be every bit as good as us, and it will likely be extremely difficult to call the favorite. Last year most of us felt we were the better team and still lost because of the injuries and the way we fell apart in round 2, playing some of our worst ball of the season. Round 2 next year will be ECF level competition.

Oh definitely. I'm not saying it is going to be easy to get out of the second round, if we make it there, but our team is good enough to do so.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 01:59 PM
Oh definitely. I'm not saying it is going to be easy to get out of the second round, if we make it there, but our team is good enough to do so.

Yea I'm just saying when teams lose in round 2 out West you never hear the "ahaha you couldn't even get past the 2nd round!!'. There have been champions that lose the next season in round 2, sometimes in round 2 the best two teams in the conference face off out West. That will be what the 2nd round looks like out East this year. Four teams and its gonna be toss up and there will be a couple great teams going home early and its not gonna be because they suck. Thats how it is when the conferences are competitive, getting to round 2 out West a lot of the time is a pretty solid accomplishment.

MrfadeawayJB
08-08-2013, 02:00 PM
Wanted him in Memphis but oh well

Jaded
08-08-2013, 02:03 PM
Wanted him in Memphis but oh well

Bobby Brown is still available, heard Memphis was linked to him also.
He's unproven but i believe he can contribute, plus he'll be cheap.

http://youtu.be/Fz9u7Cmb-H8

Rockice_8
08-08-2013, 02:03 PM
Melo has a very good cast around him this year. Last year it looked decent on paper but then Camby, Sheed, Kurt rarely played, and Shump & Amare missed most of the year.

But really Melo for the most part, has had good role players around him, the problem has always been getting him a 2nd star. Outside of AI for 1 year, he's never had that. Billups was the closest thing, and that's when they went to the WCF.

MIA is the clear favorite, NY, IND, CHI & BK are all kinda stacked together. It's all going to come down to how the supporting casts play. I mean if JR comes out and shoots 26% in the playoffs again obviously it's going to be hard for Melo to lead NY to the ECF. Dirk needed really great playoff runs for Terry, Marion & Barea to win the ship.

Again I agree 100%, he needs his cast to step up. He himself hasn't been all that great and neither have his teammates so all the blame doesn't fall on them. He's been to the playoffs 10 times now and is a career 45% shooter in the regular season. How many times has he shot at or above his career average? Three. It's not all his teammates fault, he most certainly deserves some blame.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 02:10 PM
Well no that's not true at all. I must have missed that offseason when you signed them.

Just cause I don't think the Knicks are contenders doesn't mean I think if that MJ and Magic couldn't lead them to one (if there was some magical time machine) but cool story bro.

:facepalm:

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 02:12 PM
Again I agree 100%, he needs his cast to step up. He himself hasn't been all that great and neither have his teammates so all the blame doesn't fall on them. He's been to the playoffs 10 times now and is a career 45% shooter in the regular season. How many times has he shot at or above his career average? Three. It's not all his teammates fault, he most certainly deserves some blame.

If you are talking about the playoffs, then that is expected. Look at Lebron's %'s in the playoffs this year compared to his regular season numbers.

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 02:17 PM
Again I agree 100%, he needs his cast to step up. He himself hasn't been all that great and neither have his teammates so all the blame doesn't fall on them. He's been to the playoffs 10 times now and is a career 45% shooter in the regular season. How many times has he shot at or above his career average? Three. It's not all his teammates fault, he most certainly deserves some blame.

No one is above blame no, not even Melo.

As for his FG % dropping in the playoffs, well that's to be expected since you're facing the better teams and defenses. You'd be hard pressed to find a star wing player whose FG % DOESN"T go down in the playoffs. I mean even Bron was at 49% in the playoffs, down from 57% in the reg season.

Knicks have a very solid, deep team on paper. But realistically, can you look at Melo's cast and say that Melo SHOULD lead his team to a title or even the ECT? I'm not sure he has enough STAR power to really say that.

As a Knicks fan I understand he's going to need great playoff performances to win a chip with this cast like Dirk got in DAL.

MrfadeawayJB
08-08-2013, 02:18 PM
Wanted him in Memphis but oh well

Bobby Brown is still available, heard Memphis was linked to him also.
He's unproven but i believe he can contribute, plus he'll be cheap.

http://youtu.be/Fz9u7Cmb-H8

Rather have Nic calathes. Grizz say he is likely to come over and he has proven himself in the euro ranks

Pierzynski4Prez
08-08-2013, 02:19 PM
Knicks fans need to stop looking for validation from other teams fans. **** them. The season will get played on the court and then we'll see. Tired of seeing Knicks fans pleading or basically begging for the same few dumb a*s posters to give "credit" to what the Knicks are doing or have done.

Need to sticky this post on every page of every thread in the NBA forum.

NYSpirit1
08-08-2013, 02:22 PM
LOL!

Knicks are not better than miami, brooklyn, chicago or indy

Bench means little in the playoffs, your team will go as far as your best player takes you and the knicks still have melo.

Um I'm pretty sure it took Indy's core two years to gel. It's the same as the Knicks. And bench does certainly matter in the playoffs. Bargs/Metta is a major improvement in a playoff rotation.

FYL_McVeezy
08-08-2013, 02:22 PM
This must be a good move.....

the resident trolls haven't made their rounds yet :laugh:


Disagree. Melo can't get his team past the 2nd round. I would take George and rose over melo easily. Deron is a choker too.

I knew you couldn't resist bud... :D

JOhnnyTHaJet
08-08-2013, 02:39 PM
Good pickup for them, makes a lot of sense since he'll fit well in that 2 PG offense Woodson likes to dish out.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 02:51 PM
Whats in the water over in the Heat forum? Can any of you guys provide an insightful post or analysis outside of SteBo?

First of all, look at my post history. When you do, I dare youto come back and say I don't post anything insightful and I also would like to know what, from the last two months would even lead you to believe I am a Heat fan given my posting. I talk about non-Heat players every bit as much and every bit as positively as Heat players and I don't ever post in the Heat forum. Literally, find my last post in the Heat forum and tell me when it was.

Now, since we got that out of the way....

I was being serious. Who cares? Why is this a good signing at all, muh less a "great" or "amazing" signing as some Knicks fans have said? Why does this somehow make your bench one of the best?

Beno is a nobody. He is below average all the way around and every advanced metric agrees. He is likely to contribute nothing other than minutes.

WS48: .071
WP48: .076
RAPM: -1.7
SRS: -2.5

He is a 31 year old guard whose best days are way past him and, even those best days were barely average. What's more, "depth" is largely overstated. Your first 7 players in the rotation contribute 94% of your team's wins in the regular season and your first 6 guys contribute 99% in the playoffs. Unless you suffer a lot of injuries, depth is meaningless.

So, seriously... Who cares? This isn't a good signing. It isn't news. A team signed a below average, 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot efficiently.

I don't care who that team is. LA, NY, MIA, IND... Who cares?

elledaddy
08-08-2013, 02:56 PM
First of all, look at my post history. When you do, I dare youto come back and say I don't post anything insightful and I also would like to know what, from the last two months would even lead you to believe I am a Heat fan given my posting. I talk about non-Heat players every bit as much and every bit as positively as Heat players and I don't ever post in the Heat forum. Literally, find my last post in the Heat forum and tell me when it was.

Now, since we got that out of the way....

I was being serious. Who cares? Why is this a good signing at all, muh less a "great" or "amazing" signing as some Knicks fans have said? Why does this somehow make your bench one of the best?

Beno is a nobody. He is below average all the way around and every advanced metric agrees. He is likely to contribute nothing other than minutes.

WS48: .071
WP48: .076
RAPM: -1.7
SRS: -2.5

He is a 31 year old guard whose best days are way past him and, even those best days were barely average. What's more, "depth" is largely overstated. Your first 7 players in the rotation contribute 94% of your team's wins in the regular season and your first 6 guys contribute 99% in the playoffs. Unless you suffer a lot of injuries, depth is meaningless.

So, seriously... Who cares? This isn't a good signing. It isn't news. A team signed a below average, 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot efficiently.

I don't care who that team is. LA, NY, MIA, IND... Who cares?




Hey, Im not really into advance stats. What excactly is win shares?

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 02:59 PM
Um I'm pretty sure it took Indy's core two years to gel. It's the same as the Knicks. And bench does certainly matter in the playoffs. Bargs/Metta is a major improvement in a playoff rotation.

No, actually, your Bench doesn't matter in the playoffs.

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/a-half-baked-notion-about-the-difference-between-the-regular-season-and-the-playoffs/

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 03:00 PM
First of all, look at my post history. When you do, I dare youto come back and say I don't post anything insightful and I also would like to know what, from the last two months would even lead you to believe I am a Heat fan given my posting. I talk about non-Heat players every bit as much and every bit as positively as Heat players and I don't ever post in the Heat forum. Literally, find my last post in the Heat forum and tell me when it was.

Now, since we got that out of the way....

I was being serious. Who cares? Why is this a good signing at all, muh less a "great" or "amazing" signing as some Knicks fans have said? Why does this somehow make your bench one of the best?

Beno is a nobody. He is below average all the way around and every advanced metric agrees. He is likely to contribute nothing other than minutes.

WS48: .071
WP48: .076
RAPM: -1.7
SRS: -2.5

He is a 31 year old guard whose best days are way past him and, even those best days were barely average. What's more, "depth" is largely overstated. Your first 7 players in the rotation contribute 94% of your team's wins in the regular season and your first 6 guys contribute 99% in the playoffs. Unless you suffer a lot of injuries, depth is meaningless.

So, seriously... Who cares? This isn't a good signing. It isn't news. A team signed a below average, 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot efficiently.

I don't care who that team is. LA, NY, MIA, IND... Who cares?

But signing an injury prone Greg Oden who has not played in years is a GREAT signing.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 03:03 PM
First of all, look at my post history. When you do, I dare youto come back and say I don't post anything insightful and I also would like to know what, from the last two months would even lead you to believe I am a Heat fan given my posting. I talk about non-Heat players every bit as much and every bit as positively as Heat players and I don't ever post in the Heat forum. Literally, find my last post in the Heat forum and tell me when it was.

Now, since we got that out of the way....

I was being serious. Who cares? Why is this a good signing at all, muh less a "great" or "amazing" signing as some Knicks fans have said? Why does this somehow make your bench one of the best?

Beno is a nobody. He is below average all the way around and every advanced metric agrees. He is likely to contribute nothing other than minutes.

WS48: .071
WP48: .076
RAPM: -1.7
SRS: -2.5

He is a 31 year old guard whose best days are way past him and, even those best days were barely average. What's more, "depth" is largely overstated. Your first 7 players in the rotation contribute 94% of your team's wins in the regular season and your first 6 guys contribute 99% in the playoffs. Unless you suffer a lot of injuries, depth is meaningless.

So, seriously... Who cares? This isn't a good signing. It isn't news. A team signed a below average, 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot efficiently.

I don't care who that team is. LA, NY, MIA, IND... Who cares?

This is a perfect example of a post by you that is not insightful.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 03:03 PM
duplicate.

justinnum1
08-08-2013, 03:08 PM
But signing an injury prone Greg Oden who has not played in years is a GREAT signing.

How is it anything other than a great signing when anything he offers is bonus and miami got him for the min? Miami were the favorites before signing oden.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 03:10 PM
But signing an injury prone Greg Oden who has not played in years is a GREAT signing.

Look dude, I don't know what I ever did to raise your ire, but whatever. Again, look at my post history. When did I say Oden was a great signing? I will give you a hint, I didn't. So, feel free to cut the misplaced aggression.

However, if we are going to actually compare the signings....

Best case scenario for both signings?

Heat: Oden is rested and healthy enough to play about 15 minutes a game in a small stretch in the playoffs against the Bulls or Pacers, giving the Heat a nice little boost against tall teams.

Knicks: Beno chews up some minutes at average production on the end of your bench and barely sees the light of day in the playoffs, having zero impact.

Worst case?

Heat: Oden is injured and never plays.

Knicks: Beno chews up some minutes at average production on the end of your bench and barely sees the light of day in the playoffs, having zero impact.

The reality is that neither signing is great. One of the two signings has an outside chance of being valuable to the team. The other does not. I would assume that is clear enough.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 03:14 PM
This is a perfect example of a post by you that is not insightful.

So it was already known that Beno is a 31 year old, below average guard who doesn't shoot very efficiently and therefore is likely to contribute nothing to any team he plays for?

The rest of the thread doesn't seem to bear that out. So it does seem I added information to the discussion. That seems far more insightful than your response, no?

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 03:18 PM
How is it anything other than a great signing when anything he offers is bonus and miami got him for the min? Miami were the favorites before signing oden.

It's just a signing, there's nothing great about it because there's no evidence to suggest he will be able to stay on the court.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:22 PM
So it was already known that Beno is a 31 year old, below average guard who doesn't shoot very efficiently and therefore is likely to contribute nothing to any team he plays for?

The rest of the thread doesn't seem to bear that out. So it does seem I added information to the discussion. That seems far more insightful than your response, no?


Ahh, the new breed of PSD. Where efficient-scoring-is-the-only-thing-that-matters-on-the-basketball-court happens.

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 03:24 PM
Beno is actually pretty efficient. In 2011 he posted a 59% TS

For his career he's a very respectable 54% TS, and he shoots it well from pretty much anywhere.


When given minutes, he's produced...period. 13.9ppg 5.5apg 3.4rpg on 46% PER 36 for his career.

4milesperday
08-08-2013, 03:24 PM
NY Knicks: Picking up one scrub at a time.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:25 PM
And last year Felton went down for over a month and the Knicks offense fell into the gutter. So Beno provides more than just a 3rd string table scraps PG for injury insurance alone.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:26 PM
NY Knicks: Picking up one scrub at a time.

Beno is better than every PG on your roster outside of LeBron James.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 03:32 PM
So it was already known that Beno is a 31 year old, below average guard who doesn't shoot very efficiently and therefore is likely to contribute nothing to any team he plays for?

The rest of the thread doesn't seem to bear that out. So it does seem I added information to the discussion. That seems far more insightful than your response, no?

That's already a change from your original post and the second part of that bolded statement is nothing more than your opinion. So now having average efficiency is bad for a backup/ 3rd string PG? Saying he is below average just isn't taking the rest of the talent pool into consideration and is far from insightful.

The part about depth in your original post is really what set me off. The truth about the Knicks is their PG position isn't great, it's very average. But bringing in a very capable player for the minimum to stabilize the position is what makes is a great signing for this team. In the event of injury, there won't be a significant drop off.

And your little "best case/worst case" scenario offers very little insight as well, it more closely resembled a failed attempt at humor.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2013, 03:51 PM
NY Knicks: Picking up one scrub at a time.

Must be convenient being a Miami Heat fan.

ryang
08-08-2013, 03:52 PM
Beno is better than every PG on your roster outside of LeBron James.

Not saying chalmers or cole is great but chalmers has come up huge in key situations in the playoffs. I'd keep chalmers over Beno. But I'll take Felton over chalmers

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Not saying chalmers or cole is great but chalmers has come up huge in key situations in the playoffs. I'd keep chalmers over Beno. But I'll take Felton over chalmers

Its easy to come up big when all you do is park your *** stationary behind the 3 point line and wait for kick outs.

Chalmers is clutch as ****, but Beno is the better Point Guard in the true sense of the word. Chalmers might be better for your team considering your PG is best suited to just stand there and shoot, but he's not a better player than Beno. Chalmers rarely makes anything happen off the bounce and that should be the bread and butter of a PG.

Max.This
08-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Not saying chalmers or cole is great but chalmers has come up huge in key situations in the playoffs. I'd keep chalmers over Beno. But I'll take Felton over chalmers

I like norris cole. He got a lot of crap for getting toasted by parker during the finals, but people didnt see that he was playing textbook defense, hustled, but Parker just made tough shots. I like him better than chalmers.

ryang
08-08-2013, 04:13 PM
Agreed. But when Lebron stopped attacking chalmers picked it up. Not high on Beno but the my point is skewed because chalmers definetly fits better here. Chalmers playing for let's say the bucks would be ugly to say the least

ryang
08-08-2013, 04:14 PM
I like norris cole. He got a lot of crap for getting toasted by parker during the finals, but people didnt see that he was playing textbook defense, hustled, but Parker just made tough shots. I like him better than chalmers.

Yea cole is a good defender. Can't really complain considering the circumstances. I'd keep my PGs over Beno.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 04:14 PM
NY Knicks: Picking up one scrub at a time.

Remember how I said there are some good Heat posters here? This is not one of them.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 04:19 PM
How is it anything other than a great signing when anything he offers is bonus and miami got him for the min? Miami were the favorites before signing oden.

No one said they weren't the favorite before signing him, but he isn't going to bring anything to the table. He will probably not even play and if he does, he will most likely get injured again. It's not a great signing.

NYKnickFanatic
08-08-2013, 04:20 PM
Look dude, I don't know what I ever did to raise your ire, but whatever. Again, look at my post history. When did I say Oden was a great signing? I will give you a hint, I didn't. So, feel free to cut the misplaced aggression.

However, if we are going to actually compare the signings....

Best case scenario for both signings?

Heat: Oden is rested and healthy enough to play about 15 minutes a game in a small stretch in the playoffs against the Bulls or Pacers, giving the Heat a nice little boost against tall teams.

Knicks: Beno chews up some minutes at average production on the end of your bench and barely sees the light of day in the playoffs, having zero impact.

Worst case?

Heat: Oden is injured and never plays.

Knicks: Beno chews up some minutes at average production on the end of your bench and barely sees the light of day in the playoffs, having zero impact.

The reality is that neither signing is great. One of the two signings has an outside chance of being valuable to the team. The other does not. I would assume that is clear enough.

Well, when you come into a thread and just say "who cares", what is the point of that?

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 04:52 PM
That's already a change from your original post and the second part of that bolded statement is nothing more than your opinion. So now having average efficiency is bad for a backup/ 3rd string PG? Saying he is below average just isn't taking the rest of the talent pool into consideration and is far from insightful.

The part about depth in your original post is really what set me off. The truth about the Knicks is their PG position isn't great, it's very average. But bringing in a very capable player for the minimum to stabilize the position is what makes is a great signing for this team. In the event of injury, there won't be a significant drop off.

And your little "best case/worst case" scenario offers very little insight as well, it more closely resembled a failed attempt at humor.

No, it isn't a change from my original post. He is a below average 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot at a high efficiency. And, because he is below average across the board and doesn't shoot at a high efficiency, he is unlikely to contribute anything to any team... So who cares?

How is that different?

The reality is you didn't get average PG like your post indicates. You got a below average guy who will sit at the back of your rotation and add nothing to your team.... Unless you suffer injury, at which point your old, declining, below average player will get more minutes, still not contributing.

So, there's no likely scenario where this signing adds anything to your team except minutes. That isn't just my opinion, that's the reality of the situation.

And my best/worst case scenario was true. Best case scenario for Oden actually includes the possibility that he adds a small amount of value in a small amount of time. There is not really any such scenario for Beno. Felton gettin injured isn't a "Best case" scenario.

Both signings most likely provide zero value to their teams. However, Miami's has a very small chance of providing some marginal value. The Beno signing doesn't. It's just a below average producer who will likely not see minutes and, if he does, won't be productive.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Well, when you come into a thread and just say "who cares", what is the point of that?

The point is to make the point tha no one should care. We currently have a thread where the signing solidifies NYK's bench as arguable the best. So, saying who cares is an attempt to put the signing in perspective, because it clearly is not in perspective.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Knicks fans need to stop looking for validation from other teams fans. **** them. The season will get played on the court and then we'll see. Tired of seeing Knicks fans pleading or basically begging for the same few dumb a*s posters to give "credit" to what the Knicks are doing or have done.

I could care less what peoples opinions are. I'm sure most could care less about mine. The blanket statement insults without knowledge of what your talking about makes people look foolish. That makes me laugh.

Captain Moroni
08-08-2013, 04:56 PM
Remember how I said there are some good Heat posters here? This is not one of them.

That is why we have Ignore options.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 04:58 PM
Ahh, the new breed of PSD. Where efficient-scoring-is-the-only-thing-that-matters-on-the-basketball-court happens.

First of all, I never said, nor implied, that it was the only thing. I said he was below average across the board. Did you not read? Also, shooting efficiency correlates more strongly with wins than anything else in basketball and is one of the most difficult things to replace. This is statistical fact. So... When your team lost two of its most efficient shooters and replaced them with 3 inefficient shooters, a below average player might add some value to your team if they were a very efficient shooter. But, since he isn't, he literally adds nothin of value except minutes.

DerekRE_3
08-08-2013, 05:05 PM
I like Beno. Underrated as a finisher and has a good mid range shot.

FYL_McVeezy
08-08-2013, 05:05 PM
First of all, I never said, nor implied, that it was the only thing. I said he was below average across the board. Did you not read? Also, shooting efficiency correlates more strongly with wins than anything else in basketball and is one of the most difficult things to replace. This is statistical fact. So... When your team lost two of its most efficient shooters and replaced them with 3 inefficient shooters, a below average player might add some value to your team if they were a very efficient shooter. But, since he isn't, he literally adds nothin of value except minutes.

Other than Novak, who is this other shooter you speak of?

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 05:18 PM
NY Knicks: Picking up one scrub at a time.

This is what gives Heat fans a bad name. Ya'll were going crazy over Greg freakin Oden who hasn't played in three years but our off season acquisitions are scrubs; Oden is the ultimate scrub AT THE MOMENT.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 05:25 PM
Other than Novak, who is this other shooter you speak of?

Novak and Kidd were your #1 and #3 most efficient wing shooters last year.

TeamSeattle
08-08-2013, 05:26 PM
Novak and Kidd were your #1 and #3 most efficient wing shooters last year.

What about in the playoffs where it mattered? Exactly.

UPRock
08-08-2013, 05:31 PM
Pretty good deal for them.

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 05:41 PM
Not saying chalmers or cole is great but chalmers has come up huge in key situations in the playoffs. I'd keep chalmers over Beno. But I'll take Felton over chalmers

I'd take Chalmers over Felton and Beno over Chalmers, u got it backwards brah lol

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Novak and Kidd were your #1 and #3 most efficient wing shooters last year.

How many points Kidd scored in the playoffs?

nycericanguy
08-08-2013, 05:50 PM
Novak and Kidd were your #1 and #3 most efficient wing shooters last year.

If you spoon feed them a WIDE open shot yes...

The NBA forum really is getting carried away with efficiency..lol... you gotta take things in context.

RiceOnTheRun
08-08-2013, 05:52 PM
I'm really happy with this move. The Knicks once again have a solid 3-PG rotation along with two young guys in Shump and Hardaway. Plus 6th man of the year JR Smith, if he can have a season like last year.

Frontcourt's not looking too terrible either. Melo, of course but we also have tough gritty guys like Tyson, KMart and MWP. I think MWP brings the same defensive intensity Sheed gave us last year, and Leslie seems like he could learn a thing or two from MWP and Melo. Dude is 6'9 with 7'1 wingspan with pretty good athletic abilities. He has some good potential but it's not guaranteed either. Amare and Bargnani might be a bit meh, but if they're both healthy I think they definitely help the team at PF. They've both proven they can be scorers and I think Bargnani especially can spread the floor for us. Besides paying him 10m, I think Bargnani definitely gives us an upgrade over Copeland.

Overall, I'm a little more relieved now compared to the beginning of the offseason. I still think we're underdogs in the East compared to the Pacers and Heat, but it'd be foolish to count us out. These Knicks are definitely better than last year's.

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 05:57 PM
If you spoon feed them a WIDE open shot yes...

The NBA forum really is getting carried away with efficiency..lol... you gotta take things in context.

Greg Oden who hasn't played in almost 3 years, has glass knees that make Amare's knees look fresh and new and more than likely will get hurt by game 15... Great signing

Beno Udrich who is a realiable PG, nice mid range shot, can penetrate, shot the open 3, has been pretty efficient for his career, good defender etc.. Bad signing.

NBA psd ppl!

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 05:59 PM
No, it isn't a change from my original post. He is a below average 31 year old guard who doesn't shoot at a high efficiency. And, because he is below average across the board and doesn't shoot at a high efficiency, he is unlikely to contribute anything to any team... So who cares?

How is that different?

The reality is you didn't get average PG like your post indicates. You got a below average guy who will sit at the back of your rotation and add nothing to your team.... Unless you suffer injury, at which point your old, declining, below average player will get more minutes, still not contributing.

So, there's no likely scenario where this signing adds anything to your team except minutes. That isn't just my opinion, that's the reality of the situation.

And my best/worst case scenario was true. Best case scenario for Oden actually includes the possibility that he adds a small amount of value in a small amount of time. There is not really any such scenario for Beno. Felton gettin injured isn't a "Best case" scenario.

Both signings most likely provide zero value to their teams. However, Miami's has a very small chance of providing some marginal value. The Beno signing doesn't. It's just a below average producer who will likely not see minutes and, if he does, won't be productive.

You still haven't shown me any evidence that he is a below average PG. Your whole opinion depends on that so you might want to see if that's true or not.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 06:43 PM
You still haven't shown me any evidence that he is a below average PG. Your whole opinion depends on that so you might want to see if that's true or not.

Wins Produced/48:
Avg= .100
Beno= .076

Win Shares/48:
Avg=.100
Beno= .071

Regularized Adjusted Plus/Minus:
Avg = 0.0
Beno= -1.7

82games Simole Rating:
Avg= 0.0
Beno= -2.5

Player Efficiency Rating:
Avg=15.0
Beno= 14.2

TS%:
Avg= 52.7 for PG
Beno= 51.6

Every single stat agrees. This isn't difficult. He isn't an impact addition. Especially considering he isn't a great shooter and you're already replacing Novak's shots with MWP and Bargs, and replacing Kidd's shots across Felton, Shumpert, and Hardaway, of whom only Shumpert is a good shooter. And now you add another meh, below average shooter to the mix.

KnickaBocka.44
08-08-2013, 06:45 PM
Wins Produced/48:
Avg= .100
Beno= .76

Win Shares/48:
Avg=.1

:clap:

You are aware that .76 is greater than .100, right?

Jetsguy
08-08-2013, 06:49 PM
Lol

Mr Costanza
08-08-2013, 06:52 PM
I think he meant .076 but it was a fail nonetheless.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 06:57 PM
:clap:

You are aware that .76 is greater than .100, right?

Phone ****ed up lol.

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 06:58 PM
:laugh: dude failed

Mr Costanza
08-08-2013, 06:58 PM
If the Knicks are so irrelevant why are Heat fans even posting in this thread other than to troll?

Short of Wavey, Justin has the biggest single white female obsession with the Knicks. It's odd really.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 07:04 PM
:laugh: dude failed

It's called a typo. :shrug: it's fixed.

Mr Costanza
08-08-2013, 07:10 PM
It's called a typo. :shrug: it's fixed.

You edited it and its still wrong.

Guppyfighter
08-08-2013, 07:11 PM
This is actually a pick up that makes sense. I am surprised.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 07:11 PM
If the Knicks are so irrelevant why are Heat fans even posting in this thread other than to troll?

Short of Wavey, Justin has the biggest single white female obsession with the Knicks. It's odd really.

I am a basketball fan who discusses basketball topics in the NBA forum where we discuss teams, players, and events in the NBA. I don't post in the Heat forum. :shrug: I don't know what you want from me. Lol

Mr Costanza
08-08-2013, 07:13 PM
I am a basketball fan who discusses basketball topics in the NBA forum where we discuss teams, players, and events in the NBA. I don't post in the Heat forum. :shrug: I don't know what you want from me. Lol

I wasn't actually really pointing the finger at you. I don't know who you are.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 07:14 PM
You edited it and its still wrong.

:laugh: fixed it.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-08-2013, 07:17 PM
Good pick-up, adds some well needed competition for PG minutes

beasted86
08-08-2013, 07:19 PM
Very solid bench pickup as insurance.

I'm glad to see more solid players going to contenders in big markets for the minimum rather than stealing money from scrub non-contending teams.

knickfan33
08-08-2013, 07:20 PM
Pablo Prigioni - Beno Udrih
JR Smith - Tim Hardaway
Metta World Peace - CJ Leslie
Amar'e Stoudemire - Jeremy Tyler
Kenyon Martin

That's our bench. Not bad.

i think felton ends up 3rd string...lol its not bad at all.. lot of versatitly for lineups too..

True Sports Fan
08-08-2013, 07:35 PM
:laugh: at Beno getting 12 pages. Solid pickup nonetheless

GiantsSwaGG
08-08-2013, 07:55 PM
:laugh: at Beno getting 12 pages. Solid pickup nonetheless

:laugh2: he's a Knick, what do you expect?

mizzacNYC
08-08-2013, 09:35 PM
Good pick up, we needed another PG. Beno is solid off the bench, for the vet. min. Nice pick & roll player should be interesting...

jsthornton7
08-08-2013, 09:50 PM
Great signing for NYK

redsoxknicks
08-08-2013, 09:56 PM
:laugh: at Beno getting 12 pages. Solid pickup nonetheless

There isn't a lot else going on right now in basketball, and Beno is considered a decent player.

It also is very clear that Knicks and Knicks haters have to have something to squabble about each and every day so that adds at least 6 pages to every Knicks topic.

Federal Reserve
08-08-2013, 10:12 PM
Let's not forget that Udrih broke Kobe's ankles a few years back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC4HN8tNrnI

FYL_McVeezy
08-08-2013, 10:50 PM
Novak and Kidd were your #1 and #3 most efficient wing shooters last year.

:laugh:

another case of where being a stat geek will hurt you and distort your vision.

I'm sure Kidd's totals for the season ended up being 3rd in efficiency...but because you don't watch Knicks Games...you don't take into account the fact that JKidd missed like 10-15 of his last shots in the playoffs where it counts the most (Scored his last point somewhere in the reg. season), and also the fact that JKidd started out shooting at an insane efficiency to start the season, but faded away as the season went on because the wear and tear was adding up.....

We will miss JKidd for a lot of things....but surely not for his "efficiency" as you just fabricated by using a misleading stat....

waveycrockett
08-09-2013, 12:29 AM
This puts them over the top imo. No question they are making the playoffs now.

ohreally
08-09-2013, 12:48 AM
Metta will contribute too, in spots at least, but this is probably the best addition yet for the Knicks. Not spectacular, but solid enough.

Max.This
08-09-2013, 01:08 AM
This puts them over the top imo. No question they are making the playoffs now.

says the medicare squad

John Walls Era
08-09-2013, 01:18 AM
hes actually a good bench guy

JOhnnyTHaJet
08-09-2013, 01:34 AM
says the medicare squad
Average age of the Nets: 29 (15 players)

Average age of the Knicks: 28.2 (14 players)

but sure, lets go with "medicare squad"

waveycrockett
08-09-2013, 01:41 AM
says the medicare squad

I love me some medicare

carlthack
08-09-2013, 02:24 AM
Holy crap, Udrih? That's it. Knicks are gonna skyrocket to the top of the mountain. lol

KingPosey
08-09-2013, 02:26 AM
Without a doubt he's the best pg on this roster IMO. Beno isn't a bombshell pickup but he plays a super clean game, can spot up, and shoots a high percentage when he gets consistent minutes.

WadeKobe
08-09-2013, 07:02 AM
:laugh:

another case of where being a stat geek will hurt you and distort your vision.

I'm sure Kidd's totals for the season ended up being 3rd in efficiency...but because you don't watch Knicks Games...you don't take into account the fact that JKidd missed like 10-15 of his last shots in the playoffs where it counts the most (Scored his last point somewhere in the reg. season), and also the fact that JKidd started out shooting at an insane efficiency to start the season, but faded away as the season went on because the wear and tear was adding up.....

We will miss JKidd for a lot of lthings....but surely not for his "efficiency" as you just fabricated by using a misleading stat....

This is simply untrue. You all clearly are not thinking very hard here.

Kidd was awful in te playoffs, but you're a complete moron if you think that means anything. It was a statistical anomaly, an aberration. It was an outlier... A bad slump.

However, because it is an aberration, the fact is it is unlikely to ever happen again, and any other player is just as likely to have it happen to them at some point.

The reality is, he was your third mos. efficient shooter in the regular season --- which is how playoff seeds are determined --- and you're replacing his shots with less efficient shooters.

What happens in the playoffs? Who knows. I never said anything about the playoffs. Lol.

But, please, continue to create unsound arguments

Ill21
08-09-2013, 07:58 AM
Of those 100K posts have you ever put serious thought into any of them or just regurgitated troll nonsense?

I would bet at least 5000 of his posts are just LOL or OMG.

NYKnickFanatic
08-09-2013, 08:51 AM
13 pages for Beno Udrih.

Haha

:clap:

jp611
08-09-2013, 09:18 AM
You guys are all trolls

ManRam
08-09-2013, 09:29 AM
I can only imagine what the 191 posts before have been about :sigh:

But this is a good signing. No way to suggest otherwise. A difference maker? Not really, but a good signing nonetheless. Prigs is a better shooter, but Udrih is a better player. And with Felton as your starting PG having a lot of depth at that position is never a bad thing.

One of the Knicks better moves in a while, honestly. He's better than Kidd was last year, for sure.

NYKnickFanatic
08-09-2013, 09:30 AM
You guys are all trolls

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1945966/81499114.gif

FYL_McVeezy
08-09-2013, 09:33 AM
This is simply untrue. You all clearly are not thinking very hard here.

Kidd was awful in te playoffs, but you're a complete moron if you think that means anything. It was a statistical anomaly, an aberration. It was an outlier... A bad slump.

However, because it is an aberration, the fact is it is unlikely to ever happen again, and any other player is just as likely to have it happen to them at some point.

The reality is, he was your third mos. efficient shooter in the regular season --- which is how playoff seeds are determined --- and you're replacing his shots with less efficient shooters.

What happens in the playoffs? Who knows. I never said anything about the playoffs. Lol.

But, please, continue to create unsound arguments

So you mean to tell me that JKidds playoff performance is merely an "aberration" or an "outlier" and has nothing to do with the fact that he is 40 years old and just played through an 82 game season, in which he was already breaking down? :laugh:

Yea I'm done here.....you enjoy studying your encyclopedia of stats while I enjoy actually watching Knick games.....

ManRam
08-09-2013, 09:41 AM
This is simply untrue. You all clearly are not thinking very hard here.

Kidd was awful in te playoffs, but you're a complete moron if you think that means anything. It was a statistical anomaly, an aberration. It was an outlier... A bad slump.

However, because it is an aberration, the fact is it is unlikely to ever happen again, and any other player is just as likely to have it happen to them at some point.

The reality is, he was your third mos. efficient shooter in the regular season --- which is how playoff seeds are determined --- and you're replacing his shots with less efficient shooters.

What happens in the playoffs? Who knows. I never said anything about the playoffs. Lol.

But, please, continue to create unsound arguments

Honestly, even if you're right, it means nothing. Who cares if Kidd was the team's "third most efficient wing scorer"? That's one tiny aspect of the game. He was a moderately efficient at best LOW volume scorer. Who cares about losing that very specific shooting ability? He wasn't a strength defensively any more. His 35% three point shooting is easily replaceable/nothing to worry about losing.

Dude is a 40 year-old player who did NOTHING at an above average rate last year. There's no reason to act like losing him is a big deal.


And even if he was the team's "third mos. efficient shooter" (however you want to define that in an effort to pump him up) last season it was again at such a low volume that it doesn't matter and isn't impressive. The reality is he was probably like their 8th or 9th most important offensive players last season.

nycericanguy
08-09-2013, 09:46 AM
All of a sudden Kidd & Novak are efficient scorers and key pieces to a team?...lol

Sorry but I wouldn't categorize those guys as efficient, even if Novak shot 60% from 3. The reality is neither of those guys can even get a shot off unless they are spoon fed a wide open look. So their efficiency is completely reliant on guys like Melo getting them looks.

Another case of advanced stats gone wrong...

ManRam
08-09-2013, 09:54 AM
All of a sudden Kidd & Novak are efficient scorers and key pieces to a team?...lol

Sorry but I wouldn't categorize those guys as efficient, even if Novak shot 60% from 3. The reality is neither of those guys can even get a shot off unless they are spoon fed a wide open look. So their efficiency is completely reliant on guys like Melo getting them looks.

Another case of advanced stats gone wrong...

Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

krisxsong
08-09-2013, 09:55 AM
Knicks are stacked... huge value signing here, guy made $7m last year, and honestly he's probably better than Felton though he won't start.

A legit 12-13 deep right now. Couldn't be happier with this offseason. I know everyone is pushing NY down to 5th, but this is a team that has a lot more depth now to deal with injuries.

Felton/Beno/Prigs
Shump/JR
Melo/MWP/Hardaway/Leslie
Bargs/Amare/Kmart
Chandler/Tyler

This was a solid move, but stacked? Please.

The only players that are worth value on the KNicks are Shump Melo Chandler and Smith, don't go trying to tell me they're 12-13 men deep.

HOnestly, if the Knicks are stacked, then what are the Rockets, Nets, Spurs, Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, and the Nuggets? SUPER stacked?

nycericanguy
08-09-2013, 09:58 AM
Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

I hadn't even bothered to look up their numbers because I saw pretty much every game and I know they are just stand still shooters.

But I just looked up Novak and man he has an insane career TS%...lol

topdog
08-09-2013, 10:05 AM
Knicks are stacked... huge value signing here, guy made $7m last year, and honestly he's probably better than Felton though he won't start.

A legit 12-13 deep right now. Couldn't be happier with this offseason. I know everyone is pushing NY down to 5th, but this is a team that has a lot more depth now to deal with injuries.

Felton/Beno/Prigs
Shump/JR
Melo/MWP/Hardaway/Leslie
Bargs/Amare/Kmart
Chandler/Tyler

:eyebrow:

It's a nice signing but the Knicks are far from being "stacked." MWP, Amaré, and K-mart are nowhere near their primes and is Jeremy Tyler really going to be relied on to be back-up center?

colinskik
08-09-2013, 10:12 AM
This is simply untrue. You all clearly are not thinking very hard here.

Kidd was awful in te playoffs, but you're a complete moron if you think that means anything. It was a statistical anomaly, an aberration. It was an outlier... A bad slump.

However, because it is an aberration, the fact is it is unlikely to ever happen again, and any other player is just as likely to have it happen to them at some point.

The reality is, he was your third mos. efficient shooter in the regular season --- which is how playoff seeds are determined --- and you're replacing his shots with less efficient shooters.

What happens in the playoffs? Who knows. I never said anything about the playoffs. Lol.

But, please, continue to create unsound arguments

You're way off base here.

His shooting numbers were as high as they were thanks entirely to his hot start. Once Felton went down and he became the starting PG, that's when everything started deteriorating for him, culminating in his playoff performance. In no way was it an aberration. It was more like his body finally caught up to him. PLus, if you've watched JKidd AT ALL throughout his career you would know his shot is pretty terrible despite the career numbers he's accumulated. He can only hit the wide open, set shot 3 ball.

nycericanguy
08-09-2013, 10:20 AM
:eyebrow:

It's a nice signing but the Knicks are far from being "stacked." MWP, Amaré, and K-mart are nowhere near their primes and is Jeremy Tyler really going to be relied on to be back-up center?

obviously not, they'd be an all star team if those guys were in their primes...lol.

But a bench of

Beno/Prigs
JR
MWP/Hardaway
Amare
Kmart/Tyler

is damn good. as for backup C, there is a lot of flexibility there, Kmart, Amare, Bargs & Tyler will all see minutes at C.

FYL_McVeezy
08-09-2013, 10:35 AM
Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

This....he's giving the people who use advanced stats and actually put them to good use a bad name....

GiantsSwaGG
08-09-2013, 10:58 AM
Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

I think this should school Wadekobe on how to use advanced stats correctly

koreancabbage
08-09-2013, 11:03 AM
All of a sudden Kidd & Novak are efficient scorers and key pieces to a team?...lol

Sorry but I wouldn't categorize those guys as efficient, even if Novak shot 60% from 3. The reality is neither of those guys can even get a shot off unless they are spoon fed a wide open look. So their efficiency is completely reliant on guys like Melo getting them looks.

Another case of advanced stats gone wrong...


LOL

thats not what you guys saying about them last year. you guys were clamoring championship worthy. LOL

TeamSeattle
08-09-2013, 11:57 AM
LOL

thats not what you guys saying about them last year. you guys were clamoring championship worthy. LOL

Another exaggeration by fans who dislike the Knicks. I don't see the point in doing this just to prove a point.

nycericanguy
08-09-2013, 12:08 PM
LOL

thats not what you guys saying about them last year. you guys were clamoring championship worthy. LOL

were we? or are you just exaggerating because you have an anti - knick bias?

FYL_McVeezy
08-09-2013, 12:12 PM
LOL

thats not what you guys saying about them last year. you guys were clamoring championship worthy. LOL

nice try troll

I guarantee that no Knick fan in this forum said that we were contenders because of Kidd's shooting and the almighty Steve Novak :laugh:

ManRam
08-09-2013, 12:13 PM
The Knicks might not shoot as many threes as they did last year, or even be as good at it...but honestly, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. :shrug:

Beltrans Mole
08-09-2013, 12:22 PM
14 pages for Beno Udrih...nice. Good little signing for the Knicks. As long as the Knick have a healthy Melo Chandler Smith and Shumpert they will compete with anyone.

FOXHOUND
08-09-2013, 12:23 PM
Yesssss, this is an awesome signing. The Knicks have done a great job of adding good depth despite not having many assets available to acquire talent. I'll agree with a poster earlier, I wouldn't call this Knicks team stacked as I think that should be reserved for teams with dumb riches of talent like Miami, but I would definitely say that they are deep.

Felton - Prigioni - Udrih
Shumpert - Smith - Hardaway Jr.
Anthony - Artest - Leslie
Bargnani - Stoudemire - Martin
Chandler - Tyler

That's some pretty good depth, no reason to hate on it. Plenty of teams would love the option of Prigioni/Udrih as their 3rd PG, a talented SG like Hardaway Jr. as their 3rd SG, Artest as a backup, Stoudemire playing 20 MPG for them off the bench and Kenyon Martin as the 3rd PF. The great added depth of Artest and keeping Martin will also work great for the Knicks medical plan with Amare. Being that he's going to be limited to 20 MPG it gives them one offensive option (Bargnani) and one defensive option (Martin) to throw out there at PF for the other 28 minutes while not having to worry about wearing Melo out at PF all year like last year. They also will likely keep Amare out on the second night of back-to-backs, and in those games those 20 MPG from Amare can be easily taken by Martin while providing a legitimate good player, rather than some random 3rd PF that most teams have.

The addition of Udrih will allow the Knicks to use the double PG attack to their leisure that led to them dominating the regular season last year. Through the first 28 games of the season, before Felton's injury, the Knicks had a record of 20-8 utilizing the double PG attack. The injury of Felton caused Jason Kidd to have to play PG in a heavy role, which led to his body breaking down and him becoming nothing more than a smart meat suit by February on. The play between the two double PG phases put a hamper on the Knicks record, as Felton sadly isn't really good enough to be the lone PG on a good offense as he's too limited.

Later in the season they went to Prigioni to replace Kidd's role, as it became evident that Kidd would never recover, and the Knicks went back to dominating. In the 18 games Prigioni started, in which he shot .457 from 3 and dished out 3.4 AST to just 0.8 TO in his 21.8 MPG, the Knicks had a record of 16-2, including a 13-game winning streak.

What the Knicks haters trying to overrate the loss of Kidd don't understand is that the Knicks already found their replacement for Kidd last season, when they expanded Prigioni's role and played better ball than they did at any time of the season. The problem with the team come playoff time was that there was absolutely no depth and a lack of legitimate offensive talent after Melo. That became a bigger problem when matched up against Indiana's defense, who can expose just about any flaws in a teams offense. That was a series where the Knicks greatly needed damage from the bench to help offset the deficiencies of Felton and JR Smith getting badly exposed, something Kidd was not able to do as he couldn't even score a single point the entire series. Beno will be WAY better than what Kidd was able to provide after January.

The Knicks not only added another scorer who could create his own shot in Bargnani, while also stretching the floor and being an extremely underrated player in the Pick and Pop/Roll game, but will also have a more healthy Stoudemire who will also add another scorer. Gone are the days where a player like JR Smith has to step up and try to play the Russell Westbrook to Melo's Kevin Durant to embarrassing results.

Edit: For those keeping score the Knicks had a record of 36-10 last year when they were utilizing a double PG attack that didn't involve a dead Jason Kidd.

FOXHOUND
08-09-2013, 12:25 PM
The Knicks might not shoot as many threes as they did last year, or even be as good at it...but honestly, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. :shrug:

Last year everyone said the Knicks were just a gimmicky small ball, three point shooting team.

This offseason they add players like Artest, Bargnani and will have a more healthy Stoudemire, which will allow them to go to traditional lineups vs anyone, and it's all about how they lost the ever so precious Steve Novak.

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 12:41 PM
Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

Its a shame 1 or 2 posters on this forum are actually able to look past the stats, acknowledge their flaws in certain situations and not take them as gospel across the board.

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 12:42 PM
That dude Bagwell literally said Melo was the 6th best offensive player on our team behind guys like Prigs and Tyson Chandler and Guppy said Steve Novak is a comparable defensive player to Shane Battier. That is the point its gotten to around here.

FYL_McVeezy
08-09-2013, 12:45 PM
That dude Bagwell literally said Melo was the 6th best offensive player on our team behind guys like Prigs and Tyson Chandler and Guppy said Steve Novak is a comparable defensive player to Shane Battier. That is the point its gotten to around here.

Stat geeks who don't WATCH basketball games....

really don't mean to call anyone names here, but that's the only logical explanation for the absurdity of comments such as those....

ManningToTyree
08-09-2013, 12:50 PM
15 pages for Beno lol

Jamiecballer
08-09-2013, 01:00 PM
Beno Udrih is a very good signing but Bargs is not a upgrade LOL

+1.

TeamSeattle
08-09-2013, 01:11 PM
15 pages for Beno lol

Please. Were Knick fans, we could make 5 pages out of J.R. dying his hair yellow or red.

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 01:26 PM
Stat geeks who don't WATCH basketball games....

really don't mean to call anyone names here, but that's the only logical explanation for the absurdity of comments such as those....

When you let the numbers do all the talking, some stupid ish will come out your mouth

GiantsSwaGG
08-09-2013, 01:34 PM
I bet you if the Knicks sign Jesus Shuttlesworth it will be 15+ pages

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 01:36 PM
If Spike Lee got new glasses we'd get 20.

KnickaBocka.44
08-09-2013, 01:51 PM
:eyebrow:

It's a nice signing but the Knicks are far from being "stacked." MWP, Amaré, and K-mart are nowhere near their primes and is Jeremy Tyler really going to be relied on to be back-up center?

Paul Pierce, KG, and JJ are all past their primes but the Nets are "stacked" according to the majority here.

WadeKobe
08-09-2013, 05:00 PM
Advanced stats aren't WRONG here, his application of them is wrong. He's interpreting them incorrectly. Period.


Jason Kidd was not an efficient scorer last year and the advanced stats say so. He had a TS% of 53.2 and an eFG% of 51.1. Those are above his career averages and might lead you to believe that he was somewhat efficient on face value, but you have to factor in volume. Kidd never took bad shots and rarely created for himself. He attempted just 5.4 shots a game and 4.3 of those were threes. It's not hard to be efficient when you are playing 27 minutes a game and just shooting it 5.4 times. It's even easier to look efficient based on those stats because 4.3 of those are threes. ALL he does is shoot threes, and he shoots them at an average efficiency. He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't score two point shots. If you know what factors into eFG and TS you'll get that it really isn't too impressive at all. Him only shooting threes does explain why his FG% is so low and why it is probably unfairly low (hence what those other two "advanced" averages seek to achieve) but it doesn't magically make him an important and efficient scorer.

He's not an efficient scorer or "shooter" or whatever he's saying, and the advanced stats don't say that. It's just a case of him having his opinion made and actively trying to find arguments to support it...and thus construing them.

Don't get it twisted, the advanced stats don't suggest he's an integral piece of a team because of his "efficient scoring".

Volume: it matters.

Lol @ using volume for a role player. You're the one applying incorrectly. Come on, dude. A role player shooting five or six shots a game is still going to have their shots replaced by someone. the fact is that, at this point, most of Kidd's shots are going to be replaced by Felton and Hardaway, who are both poor shooters and likely won't shoot as high as Kidd did, even on the shots he took.

that's just a reality, regardless of Kidd's career percentage or his volume. Shots will be taken by someone. they always are. So who took them, how many, how many went in, and how are those shots likely to e replaced?

that all matters when talking about a team's performance from one year to the next.

the problem here is not my application of the statistics. the problem is knicks fans here (and apparently you currently) not understanding what I'm saying.

So to be clear about what I am saying and what I am not saying.

I am not saying that Beno is bad.
I am not saying Kidd was some huge part of their offensive success.

I am saying that last year the Knicks were as good as they were in no small part because of how well they shot the 3 ball.

I am saying that this Knocks squad is going to face a lot of likely regression to the mean next season because JR and Melo are not likely to shoot as much over their career averages as they did.

I am saying that regardless of how much overall value Kidd or Novak contributed, they made shots and, so far, the large majority of the shots that they made are being replaced by Bargs, MWP, Felton, and Hardaway Jr. None of whom are efficient shooters and who likely will miss more of those shots than Kidd and Novak did.

So far, none of what I am saying is subject to your critique of stat application.

I am saying that the shots that were taken last year tha went in the basket are likely to not go in the basket as often this year.

So, in regards to Beno. I will say it again. For his career he is largely a replacement-level player. He is clearly on the decline and replacement level is likely all he is or will be from here on out. Therefore, it makes him an average pickup for 3rd string PG. not a bad pickup, not a good pickup. Just an average pickup of a replacement level guy who likely won't be a contributor to the Team winning many games.

That's what I have been saying all along. He isn't a great signing. He is a replacement level guy who is a dime a dozen on the free agent market and likely wont even play enough minutes to contribute a lot regardless.

So, on a team that has lost some shooting efficiency from last year... A team that is going to see shots that went in the basket last year not go in at as high a rate this season, a replacement level player could be a nice addition IF they shot at a really nice clip. Beno doesn't, therefore, he is what I said he is. A replacement level player who likely won't be a contributor to the team winning many games.

So, in light of the excitement and praise this signing has received, I say who cares? They got a replacement level guy for a replacement level price.

So, can you deal with that argument?

topdog
08-09-2013, 07:47 PM
obviously not, they'd be an all star team if those guys were in their primes...lol.

But a bench of

Beno/Prigs
JR
MWP/Hardaway
Amare
Kmart/Tyler

is damn good. as for backup C, there is a lot of flexibility there, Kmart, Amare, Bargs & Tyler will all see minutes at C.

Maybe we just don't have the same definition of "stacked" because I don't not think that the Knicks have made some decent depth moves, but I don't feel like any of the moves makes them better than they were last year.


Paul Pierce, KG, and JJ are all past their primes but the Nets are "stacked" according to the majority here.

Again, not sure that I agree about "stacked" but a better argument here since AK47 is still a legitimate plus (+/-) starter. The thing with KG and Pierce is 1) people thought the Nets had trapped themselves in a Lopez-Johnson-Williams triangle with no hope to improve and 2) the former Celts don't rely on athleticism and took the champs to 7 games just 2 years ago. What have Bargs and Amaré done recen.... ever?

WAYNEBO
08-13-2013, 03:25 PM
You edited it and its still wrong.

Don't forget DMF.... these little hardons just love trolling anything Knick related. Don't care what any of those morons have to say. WadeKobe, Guppyfighter and some of the other good poster are a'right w/ me.

smood999
08-13-2013, 04:04 PM
Lol @ using volume for a role player. You're the one applying incorrectly. Come on, dude. A role player shooting five or six shots a game is still going to have their shots replaced by someone. the fact is that, at this point, most of Kidd's shots are going to be replaced by Felton and Hardaway, who are both poor shooters and likely won't shoot as high as Kidd did, even on the shots he took.

that's just a reality, regardless of Kidd's career percentage or his volume. Shots will be taken by someone. they always are. So who took them, how many, how many went in, and how are those shots likely to e replaced?

that all matters when talking about a team's performance from one year to the next.

the problem here is not my application of the statistics. the problem is knicks fans here (and apparently you currently) not understanding what I'm saying.

So to be clear about what I am saying and what I am not saying.

I am not saying that Beno is bad.
I am not saying Kidd was some huge part of their offensive success.

I am saying that last year the Knicks were as good as they were in no small part because of how well they shot the 3 ball.

I am saying that this Knocks squad is going to face a lot of likely regression to the mean next season because JR and Melo are not likely to shoot as much over their career averages as they did.

I am saying that regardless of how much overall value Kidd or Novak contributed, they made shots and, so far, the large majority of the shots that they made are being replaced by Bargs, MWP, Felton, and Hardaway Jr. None of whom are efficient shooters and who likely will miss more of those shots than Kidd and Novak did.

So far, none of what I am saying is subject to your critique of stat application.

I am saying that the shots that were taken last year tha went in the basket are likely to not go in the basket as often this year.

So, in regards to Beno. I will say it again. For his career he is largely a replacement-level player. He is clearly on the decline and replacement level is likely all he is or will be from here on out. Therefore, it makes him an average pickup for 3rd string PG. not a bad pickup, not a good pickup. Just an average pickup of a replacement level guy who likely won't be a contributor to the Team winning many games.

That's what I have been saying all along. He isn't a great signing. He is a replacement level guy who is a dime a dozen on the free agent market and likely wont even play enough minutes to contribute a lot regardless.

So, on a team that has lost some shooting efficiency from last year... A team that is going to see shots that went in the basket last year not go in at as high a rate this season, a replacement level player could be a nice addition IF they shot at a really nice clip. Beno doesn't, therefore, he is what I said he is. A replacement level player who likely won't be a contributor to the team winning many games.

So, in light of the excitement and praise this signing has received, I say who cares? They got a replacement level guy for a replacement level price.

So, can you deal with that argument?

You're taking numbers and not placing any context to them. How well did Kidd shoot from January on? His high percentages were a result of shooting at an amazingly high clip the first 2 months of the season. He shot poorly after, including a stretch of missing 40 + 3's in a row. I guess you want to ignore this.

What happened to Novak against any elite defensive team?

yungincome
08-13-2013, 04:44 PM
You could take all your advance stats and I'm sure you know what I'm gonna tell you to do with them.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 05:02 PM
You're taking numbers and not placing any context to them. How well did Kidd shoot from January on? His high percentages were a result of shooting at an amazingly high clip the first 2 months of the season. He shot poorly after, including a stretch of missing 40 + 3's in a row. I guess you want to ignore this.

What happened to Novak against any elite defensive team?

What you have said here has nothing to do with any part of my argument.

Captain Moroni
08-13-2013, 05:20 PM
Yesssss, this is an awesome signing. The Knicks have done a great job of adding good depth despite not having many assets available to acquire talent. I'll agree with a poster earlier, I wouldn't call this Knicks team stacked as I think that should be reserved for teams with dumb riches of talent like Miami, but I would definitely say that they are deep.

Felton - Prigioni - Udrih
Shumpert - Smith - Hardaway Jr.
Anthony - Artest - Leslie
Bargnani - Stoudemire - Martin
Chandler - Tyler

That's some pretty good depth, no reason to hate on it. Plenty of teams would love the option of Prigioni/Udrih as their 3rd PG, a talented SG like Hardaway Jr. as their 3rd SG, Artest as a backup, Stoudemire playing 20 MPG for them off the bench and Kenyon Martin as the 3rd PF. The great added depth of Artest and keeping Martin will also work great for the Knicks medical plan with Amare. Being that he's going to be limited to 20 MPG it gives them one offensive option (Bargnani) and one defensive option (Martin) to throw out there at PF for the other 28 minutes while not having to worry about wearing Melo out at PF all year like last year. They also will likely keep Amare out on the second night of back-to-backs, and in those games those 20 MPG from Amare can be easily taken by Martin while providing a legitimate good player, rather than some random 3rd PF that most teams have.

The addition of Udrih will allow the Knicks to use the double PG attack to their leisure that led to them dominating the regular season last year. Through the first 28 games of the season, before Felton's injury, the Knicks had a record of 20-8 utilizing the double PG attack. The injury of Felton caused Jason Kidd to have to play PG in a heavy role, which led to his body breaking down and him becoming nothing more than a smart meat suit by February on. The play between the two double PG phases put a hamper on the Knicks record, as Felton sadly isn't really good enough to be the lone PG on a good offense as he's too limited.

Later in the season they went to Prigioni to replace Kidd's role, as it became evident that Kidd would never recover, and the Knicks went back to dominating. In the 18 games Prigioni started, in which he shot .457 from 3 and dished out 3.4 AST to just 0.8 TO in his 21.8 MPG, the Knicks had a record of 16-2, including a 13-game winning streak.

What the Knicks haters trying to overrate the loss of Kidd don't understand is that the Knicks already found their replacement for Kidd last season, when they expanded Prigioni's role and played better ball than they did at any time of the season. The problem with the team come playoff time was that there was absolutely no depth and a lack of legitimate offensive talent after Melo. That became a bigger problem when matched up against Indiana's defense, who can expose just about any flaws in a teams offense. That was a series where the Knicks greatly needed damage from the bench to help offset the deficiencies of Felton and JR Smith getting badly exposed, something Kidd was not able to do as he couldn't even score a single point the entire series. Beno will be WAY better than what Kidd was able to provide after January.

The Knicks not only added another scorer who could create his own shot in Bargnani, while also stretching the floor and being an extremely underrated player in the Pick and Pop/Roll game, but will also have a more healthy Stoudemire who will also add another scorer. Gone are the days where a player like JR Smith has to step up and try to play the Russell Westbrook to Melo's Kevin Durant to embarrassing results.

Edit: For those keeping score the Knicks had a record of 36-10 last year when they were utilizing a double PG attack that didn't involve a dead Jason Kidd.

This post is dead on truth. Nice job.

Captain Moroni
08-13-2013, 05:31 PM
What you have said here has nothing to do with any part of my argument.

Just reading through your posts, you really don't seem to have a legitimate argument. Not trying to be rude here, but your focusing on a one sided POV that you try to use to prove a misguided point.

Jason Kidd will easily be replaced. Novak, even easier.

Kashmir13579
08-13-2013, 05:40 PM
You're taking numbers and not placing any context to them. How well did Kidd shoot from January on? His high percentages were a result of shooting at an amazingly high clip the first 2 months of the season. He shot poorly after, including a stretch of missing 40 + 3's in a row. I guess you want to ignore this.

What happened to Novak against any elite defensive team?
lol you might as well not even converse with this dude.

The Jason Kidd shot replacement bit at the beginning sums up his unfamiliarity with what he's attempting to discuss.

Kashmir13579
08-13-2013, 05:42 PM
What you have said here has nothing to do with any part of my argument.

Your argument is a non-argument being that it starts off with something completely false. Thats what he was replying to. Why even read on?

ManRam
08-13-2013, 05:48 PM
That dude Bagwell literally said Melo was the 6th best offensive player on our team behind guys like Prigs and Tyson Chandler and Guppy said Steve Novak is a comparable defensive player to Shane Battier. That is the point its gotten to around here.

I'm sure you misinterpreted something. I have no idea how long you're banned because PSD is dumb and won't let us actually see that ****, but maybe when you come back you can direct me towards that.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 06:44 PM
lol you might as well not even converse with this dude.

The Jason Kidd shot replacement bit at the beginning sums up his unfamiliarity with what he's attempting to discuss.

No, it doesn't. Shots that went in the basket last year are a hard, immovable reality. They are a fact. Those shots will be replaced. That's another reality that you cannot change.

The question is, will those shots go in the basket as often?

And your argument about peaks and valleys is null. So what if someone shot insanely well then insanely poor?

If a guy shoots .525 TS, and another guy shoots .500 TS, the fear guy made more points per shot. Period.

If your argument is that guy A shot .750 for half the season and .400 for half, so player B's shots are more valuable for the bad half... Fine. I agree. However, player A's shots in the first half are therefore have an even larger value compared to Player B's... Ultimately evening out over the whole season (what I have been saying).

Unless you want to argue that low TS has more negative value than good TS has positive value. That's be interesting.

But if your point is Jason Kidd sucked hardcore the second half of the season and his numbers were only good because he was awesome the first half and so Beno's shots are valuable because he won't suck the second half. My question will be shoot as awesome in the first?

You don't get to erase the first half by dwelling on the second.

So, no, it is you who doesn't appear to know what they are talking about.

Captain Moroni
08-13-2013, 07:09 PM
"No, it doesn't. Shots that went in the basket last year are a hard, immovable reality. They are a fact. Those shots will be replaced. That's another reality that you cannot change.

The question is, will those shots go in the basket as often?"

You are trying to prove things in a vacuum. You simply can't.

Player A averages ABC during his career in Metropolis. For whatever reason, whether it's teammates, Coaches, Style of Play, or Color of uniform his stats are his stats.

Player B Averages XYZ During his career in Whoville. For whatever reasons as stated above his stats are his stats.

Player A gets Traded to Whoville for Player B.

You are just assuming ABC for Player A and XYZ for player B. You are not taking ANY variables into account.
Fan base Crazies....maybe Player B can't play in front of sell out crowds. Maybe Player A hates half empty arena's and will thrive in Whoville.

Maybe the System will make Player B more of an ABC type player.

Wide open Shots are created by Star player's as team mates. Most NBA shooters are going to hit wide open shots. Kidd was NEVER the type of three point shooter he was through January last year. Maybe the SYSTEM and STAR power created wide open opportunities for him.
Copeland wasn't even an NBA player until he was 30 years old. WHY? Because he found a system that fit his skillset.
Where is Shawne Williams? remember him, Lights out 3 bomb king under Dantoni. Now? overpaid has been. With Toronto, Novak will probably fail miserably.

Stats tell past performance not necessarily future fortunes.

Miggy Carbrera was always a good hitter.....NOT THIS GOOD. Now he is surrounded by Boppers. Hmmm.

smood999
08-13-2013, 07:20 PM
No, it doesn't. Shots that went in the basket last year are a hard, immovable reality. They are a fact. Those shots will be replaced. That's another reality that you cannot change.

The question is, will those shots go in the basket as often?

And your argument about peaks and valleys is null. So what if someone shot insanely well then insanely poor?

If a guy shoots .525 TS, and another guy shoots .500 TS, the fear guy made more points per shot. Period.

If your argument is that guy A shot .750 for half the season and .400 for half, so player B's shots are more valuable for the bad half... Fine. I agree. However, player A's shots in the first half are therefore have an even larger value compared to Player B's... Ultimately evening out over the whole season (what I have been saying).

Unless you want to argue that low TS has more negative value than good TS has positive value. That's be interesting.

But if your point is Jason Kidd sucked hardcore the second half of the season and his numbers were only good because he was awesome the first half and so Beno's shots are valuable because he won't suck the second half. My question will be shoot as awesome in the first?

You don't get to erase the first half by dwelling on the second.

So, no, it is you who doesn't appear to know what they are talking about.

The point is...after the first 2 months of the season, not even half, Kidd was no longer very productive and the Knicks managed just fine and still remained in the top 5 in 3 pt %. You are overrating Kidd's 3 pt contributions unless you are just talking about the first 2 months of the season. Numbers are just numbers until you put context behind them and you have failed to do so and that's where your argument fails.

You wan't to know how the Knicks will replace Kidd's 3 pt shooting. To answer your own question you should ask yourself how did they replace it from January on last season.

imagesrdecievin
08-13-2013, 07:51 PM
This was a very good signing. Him and JR is a very dangerous back court on the 2nd unit.

Kashmir13579
08-13-2013, 08:02 PM
No, it doesn't. Shots that went in the basket last year are a hard, immovable reality. They are a fact. Those shots will be replaced. That's another reality that you cannot change.

The question is, will those shots go in the basket as often?

And your argument about peaks and valleys is null. So what if someone shot insanely well then insanely poor?

If a guy shoots .525 TS, and another guy shoots .500 TS, the fear guy made more points per shot. Period.

If your argument is that guy A shot .750 for half the season and .400 for half, so player B's shots are more valuable for the bad half... Fine. I agree. However, player A's shots in the first half are therefore have an even larger value compared to Player B's... Ultimately evening out over the whole season (what I have been saying).

Unless you want to argue that low TS has more negative value than good TS has positive value. That's be interesting.

But if your point is Jason Kidd sucked hardcore the second half of the season and his numbers were only good because he was awesome the first half and so Beno's shots are valuable because he won't suck the second half. My question will be shoot as awesome in the first?

You don't get to erase the first half by dwelling on the second.

So, no, it is you who doesn't appear to know what they are talking about.

I've never seen such useless rhetoric.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 08:06 PM
"No, it doesn't. Shots that went in the basket last year are a hard, immovable reality. They are a fact. Those shots will be replaced. That's another reality that you cannot change.

The question is, will those shots go in the basket as often?"

You are trying to prove things in a vacuum. You simply can't.

Player A averages ABC during his career in Metropolis. For whatever reason, whether it's teammates, Coaches, Style of Play, or Color of uniform his stats are his stats.

Player B Averages XYZ During his career in Whoville. For whatever reasons as stated above his stats are his stats.

Player A gets Traded to Whoville for Player B.

You are just assuming ABC for Player A and XYZ for player B. You are not taking ANY variables into account.
Fan base Crazies....maybe Player B can't play in front of sell out crowds. Maybe Player A hates half empty arena's and will thrive in Whoville.

Maybe the System will make Player B more of an ABC type player.

Wide open Shots are created by Star player's as team mates. Most NBA shooters are going to hit wide open shots. Kidd was NEVER the type of three point shooter he was through January last year. Maybe the SYSTEM and STAR power created wide open opportunities for him.
Copeland wasn't even an NBA player until he was 30 years old. WHY? Because he found a system that fit his skillset.
Where is Shawne Williams? remember him, Lights out 3 bomb king under Dantoni. Now? overpaid has been. With Toronto, Novak will probably fail miserably.

Stats tell past performance not necessarily future fortunes.

Miggy Carbrera was always a good hitter.....NOT THIS GOOD. Now he is surrounded by Boppers. Hmmm.

Wrong. Basketball player stats, particularly shooting percentages vary less (are more consistent) than any other sports statistics from year to year, regardless of teammates, coaches, system, etc, with some exceptions for extreme cases.

Until people realize and accept and deal with that reality, they will continue to post nonsense like you did above.

In fact, Miggy is the perfect example. He is not better Bc he has better hitters around him. He is better because he is having a great year. Last year he was not as good as he was in 2010 or 2011, with this great team. There is no evidence for protection in baseball.

Miggy is hitting better than ever this year because be is a great hitter in his prime and things are going right. He is also probably seeing more mistake pitches. It isn't indicative of his context at all.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 08:25 PM
The point is...after the first 2 months of the season, not even half, Kidd was no longer very productive and the Knicks managed just fine and still remained in the top 5 in 3 pt %. You are overrating Kidd's 3 pt contributions unless you are just talking about the first 2 months of the season. Numbers are just numbers until you put context behind them and you have failed to do so and that's where your argument fails.

You wan't to know how the Knicks will replace Kidd's 3 pt shooting. To answer your own question you should ask yourself how did they replace it from January on last season.

I have sai very little about Kidd. I am not sure why you are zeroing in on him Bc that is not my argument.

WadeKobe
08-13-2013, 08:25 PM
I've never seen such useless rhetoric.

Exactly my thoughts.