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Mile High Champ
08-08-2013, 12:39 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Andre Iguodala
5) Paul Pierce
6) Kawhi Leonard
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Rudy Gay
7) Luol Deng
8) Danny Granger
9) Danilo Gallinari
10) Nicolas Batum

2011 Off-Season Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Danny Granger
7) Luol Deng
8) Rudy Gay
9) Gerald Wallace
10) Danilo Gallinari

2010 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Andre Iguodala
8) Rudy Gay
9) Luol Deng
10) Ron Artest

2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Mile High Champ
08-08-2013, 12:42 AM
Mods please sticky

tredigs
08-08-2013, 01:32 AM
I'd enjoy seeing the case for Deng over Ersan Ilyasova, let alone Gallo.

TrueFan420
08-08-2013, 02:09 AM
Gallo

tredigs
08-08-2013, 02:12 AM
Hahaha I just saw that Ersan isn't even on the list. OP you're killin' me, watch more ball and spend less time on ESPN my man.

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 02:20 AM
Since Butler and George are SG, give me Ersan. Easy... And please edit the poll.

waveycrockett
08-08-2013, 02:23 AM
Wow Ersan is a SF?? Bucks need to get more TV time and he was absolutely horrid the 1st half of last season is he really a top-10 SF now???

waveycrockett
08-08-2013, 02:34 AM
Realistically I think Batum is the best choice here. He is the best 2 way player on the board. And unlike Gallo, Granger and Deng his health isn't a concern. At only 24 years old he's already a deadly shooter and his offense is still improving.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 02:40 AM
Wow Ersan is a SF?? Bucks need to get more TV time and he was absolutely horrid the 1st half of last season is he really a top-10 SF now???

I guess you can call him a PF so hopefully that's why he's not listed. But he's way more of a SF type and plays that role in the offense. You'll rarely ever find him in a post situation.

5ass
08-08-2013, 02:43 AM
Ilyasova started at PF.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 02:52 AM
Ilyasova started at PF.

To me he's even less than Ryan Anderson as a "Power Forward" in Orlando, but I think that's what's going on. So fair play.

dalton749
08-08-2013, 03:04 AM
If your taking ersan over Rudy at sf you are on crack

WadeKobe
08-08-2013, 03:07 AM
In that case, Gallo or AK47. But AK won't see starter's minutes anymore, so give me gallo I guess. Meh. SF is so uninteresting without Butler, George, and Ilyasova. With them, it is the strongest position in basketball.

Nah, you know what? I am gonna go Marion.

NBA-GMaster
08-08-2013, 07:36 AM
PARSONS!! :towel-wave:

JasonJohnHorn
08-08-2013, 08:01 AM
How is Deng still an option! He should have been picked a while ago! No appreciation for defense here.

JasonJohnHorn
08-08-2013, 08:09 AM
I'd enjoy seeing the case for Deng over Ersan Ilyasova, let alone Gallo.

Gallo is simply no as good a defender as Deng and his percentages are not as good as Deng. Deng also had slightly better rebounding and assist numbers.

As for Ilyasova... big fish little pond. He is a great shooter and solid rebounder (better rebounder than Deng), but that is to be expected in part because he plays a lot of (if not all of) minutes at power forward. A power forward and an small forward? Apples and oranges. And you can't expect somebody to vote for a player who is not even on the list over a player who is.

Put Ilyasova on a playoff team and see where his minutes go (and I mean an ACTUAL playoff team, not a sub-500 team who gets the 8th seed because there's no depth in the East). The Bucks were simply not that good last year. In the West they would have been lucky to win 25 games. In the East the make the playoffs but get embarrassed in the first round.

I haven't seen Ilyasova play a lot, so I can't speak to his defense, but Deng's defense is top notch and that counts for a lot in my book.

Again... comparing the two is problematic because Ilyasova is a power forward, not a small forward, so obviously his rebounding numbers will be better.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 08:32 AM
Gallo is simply no as good a defender as Deng and his percentages are not as good as Deng. Deng also had slightly better rebounding and assist numbers.

As for Ilyasova... big fish little pond. He is a great shooter and solid rebounder (better rebounder than Deng), but that is to be expected in part because he plays a lot of (if not all of) minutes at power forward. A power forward and an small forward? Apples and oranges. And you can't expect somebody to vote for a player who is not even on the list over a player who is.

Put Ilyasova on a playoff team and see where his minutes go (and I mean an ACTUAL playoff team, not a sub-500 team who gets the 8th seed because there's no depth in the East). The Bucks were simply not that good last year. In the West they would have been lucky to win 25 games. In the East the make the playoffs but get embarrassed in the first round.

I haven't seen Ilyasova play a lot, so I can't speak to his defense, but Deng's defense is top notch and that counts for a lot in my book.

Again... comparing the two is problematic because Ilyasova is a power forward, not a small forward, so obviously his rebounding numbers will be better.
If the Rockets had Ilyasova, they would be the 2014 champs. But we'll talk about him more in the PF debate.

Gallo's an underrated defender who actually is easily the more efficient scorer than Deng. Both have a case here though, and Deng's minutes/durability over him make a difference when it's not a big gap.

aTinyPanda
08-08-2013, 10:41 AM
Has to be Deng here, simply because Gallo's season ended with the injury and next season is a big question mark because of it. Could make a statistical argument for both guys, but the injury is what swung me to Deng's camp.

Radio Rakeem
08-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Rudy HAS to be taken here!! But For arguments sake, can someone explain to me why Rudy, who was voted ahead of Deng last year, seems to be taking a back seat to him when they both arguably had the same individual years as the prior year?

Rudy also improved as the year went on as he got more acclimated to his new team and role while Deng declined as the year went on.

b@llhog24
08-08-2013, 12:46 PM
Gallo, again. Also Hayward was in the SG poll, but if he's a SF I'd take him over guys like Batum, Parsons, Gay on my team.

b@llhog24
08-08-2013, 12:47 PM
If the Rockets had Ilyasova, they would be the 2014 champs. But we'll talk about him more in the PF debate.

Gallo's an underrated defender who actually is easily the more efficient scorer than Deng. Both have a case here though, and Deng's minutes/durability over him make a difference when it's not a big gap.

So true. I wondering if Morey is targeting him.

aTinyPanda
08-08-2013, 12:52 PM
Rudy HAS to be taken here!! But For arguments sake, can someone explain to me why Rudy, who was voted ahead of Deng last year, seems to be taking a back seat to him when they both arguably had the same individual years as the prior year?

Rudy also improved as the year went on as he got more acclimated to his new team and role while Deng declined as the year went on.

Gay was pretty inefficient on the offensive end last season (lowest ORating [98] in his career since rookie year while increasing his usage 2%, also lowest TS% since his rookie year). The work he does on offense equates to essentially 0 offensive win shares and any help he offers the team is on the defensive end. Deng beats him in almost every advanced stat, and synergy stats suggest that Gay doesn't play to his offensive strengths (cutting and posting up) nearly as much as he likes to ISO or pick and roll, where he's less efficient.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gayru01.html

http://o.canada.com/2013/01/29/raptors-in-active-trade-discussions-for-rudy-gay/

Monta is beast
08-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Warriors ahave three in the top 10, two in the top 5. Lee will make top 10, if Bogut is producing we have a starting five of all top 10 players at their position.

Bruno
08-08-2013, 01:57 PM
Deng.

ChiSox219
08-08-2013, 02:13 PM
If the Rockets had Ilyasova, they would be the 2014 champs. But we'll talk about him more in the PF debate.

Gallo's an underrated defender who actually is easily the more efficient scorer than Deng. Both have a case here though, and Deng's minutes/durability over him make a difference when it's not a big gap.


So true. I wondering if Morey is targeting him.

Terrence Jones is going to be better than Ilyasova very soon...

Kashmir13579
08-08-2013, 02:32 PM
Damn about time Deng gets off the board.

Mile High Champ
08-08-2013, 02:55 PM
Hahaha I just saw that Ersan isn't even on the list. OP you're killin' me, watch more ball and spend less time on ESPN my man.

Watch more ball? I think you did not watch a single Bucks game if you believe Illyasova is a SF. Last year Ersan had 54 starts. Also last year, Marquis Daniels, Mike Dunleavy and Tobias Harris had 50 starts between the 3 of them. All 3 of those guys are considered SF's and maybe potentially a SG. Both Jennings and Ellis started 80+ games last year for the Bucks so just by looking at the numbers it is quite clear that majority of the starts made by Illyasova came at the PF position. I think it is time you take your head out of the sand and stop accusing others of not "watching enough ball".

Aside from the obvious that Illy can't defend the 3 spot and just because you are a three point shooter does not automatically mean you played a typical perimeter orientated position like the wing.

Mile High Champ
08-08-2013, 02:56 PM
Warriors ahave three in the top 10, two in the top 5. Lee will make top 10, if Bogut is producing we have a starting five of all top 10 players at their position.

Center is a very deep position now. Even a healthy Bogut ain't guaranteed a top 10 spot.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:48 PM
How is Deng still an option! He should have been picked a while ago! No appreciation for defense here.

There hasn't been on this forum for awhile now. The PSD NBA forum - where efficient scoring is the only aspect of NBA basketball that matters.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 03:53 PM
If the Rockets had Ilyasova, they would be the 2014 champs. But we'll talk about him more in the PF debate.

Gallo's an underrated defender who actually is easily the more efficient scorer than Deng. Both have a case here though, and Deng's minutes/durability over him make a difference when it's not a big gap.

Gallo has weapons all over the place at every position, Deng was asked to be a #1 option scorer. Of course his efficiency will take a hit. He also played with a torn ligament in his wrist for 2 straight seasons.

For all the dudes that love efficiency here, most take zero time to figure out WHY one guy might have been more efficient than the other, or why certain guys efficiency takes a major hit in different situations. You can't just look at the stats at face value and say derrr Gallo scores more efficient!

Maybe try to figure out why he does?

Gallo doesn't make more of an impact on the game than Deng does. Gallo is not helping will that depleted Bulls team to 45 wins.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 03:53 PM
I very much like to watch Bucks basketball

It's my b, I addressed it. He's just not a typical PF and on offense plays like a SF (again, rarely ever find him in the block), so that's how I think of him. But PF makes more sense for the poll and that's where we can talk about him again. With where we've had some of the guys listed position wise so far, you never know.


Terrence Jones is going to be better than Ilyasova very soon...

Then a 45% 3pt shooter who can also rebound? Jones shot 26% from three (tho' he likes to stretch the floor), and never cracked 33% from the college three, so it looks like he'll need some serious gym time if he wants to match/pass him in that particular skill set (which imo is the ideal skill set next to Howard).

tredigs
08-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Gallo has weapons all over the place at every position, Deng was asked to be a #1 option scorer. Of course his efficiency will take a hit. He also played with a torn ligament in his wrist for 2 straight seasons.

For all the dudes that love efficiency here, most take zero time to figure out WHY one guy might have been more efficient than the other, or why certain guys efficiency takes a major hit in different situations. You can't just look at the stats at face value and say derrr Gallo scores more efficient!

Maybe try to figure out why he does?

Gallo doesn't make more of an impact on the game than Deng does. Gallo is not helping will that depleted Bulls team to 45 wins.

Okay chief, now consider the fact that Gallo has been more efficient than Deng's career high TS every season of his career? He was their 1a option offensively with Lawson on nearly identical attempts to Deng + Boozer. They also had an identical usage% and a 116 O rating as a 1a in similar roles is damn good (105 for Deng). Hopefully that clears up some of the "derrr efficiency!" for you.

Like I said previously though, a case for Deng is fine here. He played more minutes and spent more time on tougher offensive players due to Iggy's presence in DEN. But, Gallo is also a good defender. And better offensively.

ChiSox219
08-08-2013, 04:20 PM
It's my b, I addressed it. He's just not a typical PF and on offense plays like a SF (again, rarely ever find him in the block), so that's how I think of him. But PF makes more sense for the poll and that's where we can talk about him again. With where we've had some of the guys listed position wise so far, you never know.



Then a 45% 3pt shooter who can also rebound? Jones shot 26% from three (tho' he likes to stretch the floor), and never cracked 33% from the college three, so it looks like he'll need some serious gym time if he wants to match/pass him in that particular skill set (which imo is the ideal skill set next to Howard).

Jones' skillset is more impressive and he's a much better athlete. So many people keep throwing out trade ideas for the Rockets not recognizing that Houston already has two excellent prospects with NBA PF bodies and 3pt range.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 04:35 PM
Jones' skillset is more impressive and he's a much better athlete. So many people keep throwing out trade ideas for the Rockets not recognizing that Houston already has two excellent prospects with NBA PF bodies and 3pt range.

Time will tell I guess. I like the athleticism and liked him in college, but he's still very much a raw prospect with a lot to prove. Can we at least get them to the point where one of them shoots >29% from three before we label them as having 3pt range when the guy I'm talking about is a proven 45% 3pt threat? After Skiles was fired over the last 50+ games, we were seeing 17/9/2 on 49/47/81 from Ily. That's absolutely beast, but I do get that Morey is going to give these guys time to develop to see if they can't act on that potential some.

TrueFan420
08-08-2013, 04:39 PM
Jones' skillset is more impressive and he's a much better athlete. So many people keep throwing out trade ideas for the Rockets not recognizing that Houston already has two excellent prospects with NBA PF bodies and 3pt range.

Saying jones has 3 pt range is like saying Bynum does. Ok well not really but you get the point. The dude hit 26% from 3 that's horrible. He better spend every second in the gym doing nothing but shooting 3's if he wants to improve on that number.

ChiSox219
08-08-2013, 04:48 PM
Saying jones has 3 pt range is like saying Bynum does. Ok well not really but you get the point. The dude hit 26% from 3 that's horrible. He better spend every second in the gym doing nothing but shooting 3's if he wants to improve on that number.

You are confused, when I say Jones has three point range I mean he is comfortable shooting from deep. Just because you have the range doesnt mean you will go out and shoot 40% in the NBA and in limited minutes your rookie year, no less. Heck, two years ago Ilyasova was coming a season where he shot 29% from 3.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Okay chief, now consider the fact that Gallo has been more efficient than Deng's career high TS every season of his career? He was their 1a option offensively with Lawson on nearly identical attempts to Deng + Boozer. They also had an identical usage% and a 116 O rating as a 1a in similar roles is damn good (105 for Deng). Hopefully that clears up some of the "derrr efficiency!" for you.

Like I said previously though, a case for Deng is fine here. He played more minutes and spent more time on tougher offensive players due to Iggy's presence in DEN. But, Gallo is also a good defender. And better offensively.

Gallo was drafted into this league to be a scorer - I would hope he's more efficient at it. Deng was drafted to be a lockdown defender and glue guy, and he's one of the best out there at that.

Again, Nuggets had weapons all over the court, they were loaded with offenseive firepower, its not like you could really focus too much defensive attention on Gallo. Bulls were playing with an injury ravaged squad with mostly 3rd stringers and zero scoring talent and forcing Deng into a scoring role he should never have to be in in the first place.

I would expect the offensive game to come a little easier for Gallo given there respective situations, and considering Gallo was drafted for his offensive prowess.

I agree Gallo is a solid defender, but Deng is on another stratosphere, and IMO, Deng's defense was way more crucial to Chicago's success than Gallo's offense was for Denver. They win 50+ games without Gallo IMO (if Chandler stays healthy), Bulls don't even sniff 35 wins without Deng.

Using offensive metrics to choose between a guy who gets paid for his defense and a guy who gets paid for his offense sounds kinda stupid on the surface anyway doesn't it?

Chronz
08-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Saying jones has 3 pt range is like saying Bynum does. Ok well not really but you get the point. The dude hit 26% from 3 that's horrible. He better spend every second in the gym doing nothing but shooting 3's if he wants to improve on that number.

Hes talking about his skillset, not so much his accuracy as a rookie in limited minutes.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 04:52 PM
Gallo 1a isn't a similar role to Deng 1a just because they are both 1a. Not Gallo 1a is loaded with firepower from 2-3-4-5 and Deng 1a has Nate Robinson and table scraps behind him.

Same goes for identical usage. 1 guy has a high usage on a team with no scoring talent. The other guy has high usage on a team with weapons at every position. Its not rocket science to see the flaws in these stats-only comparison arguments.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 04:53 PM
You are confused, when I say Jones has three point range I mean he is comfortable shooting from deep. Just because you have the range doesnt mean you will go out and shot 40% in limited minutes your rookie year. Heck, two years ago Ilyasova was coming a season where he shot 29% from 3.

True, but as a 19 yr old in the NBA before he left again oversees, he was at nearly 37%. 3pt shooting is variable year to year, but even showing much more promise as an outside threat than Jones coming in, it took him 5 years to really dial it in (and he has dialed it in as well as any PF in NBA history).


Gallo 1a isn't a similar role to Deng 1a just because they are both 1a. Not Gallo 1a is loaded with firepower from 2-3-4-5 and Deng 1a has Nate Robinson and table scraps behind him.

Show me something to prove to me that Deng saw much heavier defensive pressure than Gallo or let's get off of this. You're just talking, at this point.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 04:59 PM
I'm also not as high on Deng's defense as some are. That's to say that I think he's a great defender, but eye test wise not "All World" in the same vein as Iggy or Tony Allen when we're talking about wings. Stat wise, Synergy or RAPM help prove that.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 04:59 PM
True, but as a 19 yr old in the NBA before he left again oversees, he was at nearly 37%. 3pt shooting is variable year to year, but even showing much more promise as an outside threat than Jones coming in, it took him 5 years to really dial it in (and he has dialed it in as well as any PF in NBA history).



Show me something to prove to me that Deng saw much heavier defensive pressure than Gallo or let's get off of this. You're just talking, at this point.

Thats your problem - you look for proof in a game where there is no defined proof, and all the proof you can give is flawed because you cannot draw direct comparisons to different situations, different roles, teammates, coaches, systems conferences. Its not 1 on 1 baseball pitcher vs batter matchups and will never be. Your looking for proof that an orange is better than an apple and your never gonna get it.

And its not all about defensive pressure as much as it is about offensive talent.

You ever play on a squad with a bunch of crappy players who can't score, where you had to try and do things you weren't really capable of?

You ever play on a squad loaded with talent where you could feed off the guys who were way more equipped to shoulder the load?

If you have, it really shouldn't be a question. Which team did you play better and mess up less on?

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm also not as high on Deng's defense as some are. That's to say that I think he's a great defender, but eye test wise not "All World" in the same vein as Iggy or Tony Allen when we're talking about wings. Stat wise, Synergy or RAPM help prove that.

I think he's missing just a little bit of the athleticism/lateral speed needed to be Iggy type level. Deng can't really lock down the quickest of the quick like Iggy can. His IQ and positional defense is off the charts though IMO.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 05:06 PM
The only stats I give a lot of credence to are matchup specific stats (hey look its like baseball!) and comparable situations (like the Rose/Melo comparison I mentioned in another thread).

This efficiency revolution where dudes are drawing definitive lines comparing players in *** backwards situations is complete hogwash, and its a shame the best posters on this forum can't even see the glaring flaws in doing that.

D-Leethal
08-08-2013, 05:11 PM
Everyone feels the need for "proof" but in reality, there IS NO ****ING PROOF in the game of basketball. Its not 5 guys in a series of 1 on 1 matchups, its not baseball, every movement on the court has a reaction from elsewhere on the court, a players individual success is directly tied to his teammates ability and actions. You simply can't just isolate players like you can in baseball.

Stats have their place in basketball but posters really need to learn its an extremely minor piece to the puzzle, with a ton of flaws, question marks, and need for context instead of using it to piece together the whole thing without even attempting to provide any context.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 05:14 PM
Thats your problem - you look for proof in a game where there is no defined proof, and all the proof you can give is flawed because you cannot draw direct comparisons to different situations, different roles, teammates, coaches, systems conferences. Its not 1 on 1 baseball pitcher vs batter matchups and will never be. Your looking for proof that an orange is better than an apple and your never gonna get it.

And its not all about defensive pressure as much as it is about offensive talent.

You ever play on a squad with a bunch of crappy players who can't score, where you had to try and do things you weren't really capable of?

You ever play on a squad loaded with talent where you could feed off the guys who were way more equipped to shoulder the load?

If you have, it really shouldn't be a question. Which team did you play better and mess up less on?

If that's your argument, then acknowledge that it's not as if Deng was taking the reigns and shouldering the offensive load. Rose's production just got dispersed throughout evenly (mainly taken over by Nate obviously) and Luol basically kept his exact same role. That's why you didn't see any legit jump in scoring, dishing, Usage%, etc.

And there are plenty of great stats for basketball when you know how to put them into context. It seems that you shun most of them and are just dismissing them out of ignorance. Take some time to understand different stats and what they mean and how they come to certain conclusions, and they can be very useful.

ChiSox219
08-08-2013, 05:17 PM
Deng is definitely an all-world defender, why else would the coaches keep picking him for the all-star game? It's like DLee said, his IQ is off the charts and he covers an incredible amount of ground playing with some really lousy defenders like Boozer, Belinelli, and Nate Rob.

tredigs
08-08-2013, 05:26 PM
Deng is definitely an all-world defender, why else would the coaches keep picking him for the all-star game? It's like DLee said, his IQ is off the charts and he covers an incredible amount of ground playing with some really lousy defenders like Boozer, Belinelli, and Nate Rob.

The same coaches that pick Kobe Bryant as All NBA 1st Team Defense? I don't know Chi. But it's not my favorite argument. He's a very good defender, but sometimes I think he gets put in the same cast as Allen and Iggy, which he is not.

mrblisterdundee
08-08-2013, 06:39 PM
I'd enjoy seeing the case for Deng over Ersan Ilyasova, let alone Gallo.

I think Gallinari's problem is that he played less last season. Number of games missed is an indicator of how well someone did last season, and Gallinari wasn't in the playoffs, whereas Deng was and played somewhat well.

Bruno
08-08-2013, 08:17 PM
Everyone feels the need for "proof" but in reality, there IS NO ****ING PROOF in the game of basketball. Its not 5 guys in a series of 1 on 1 matchups, its not baseball, every movement on the court has a reaction from elsewhere on the court, a players individual success is directly tied to his teammates ability and actions. You simply can't just isolate players like you can in baseball.

Stats have their place in basketball but posters really need to learn its an extremely minor piece to the puzzle, with a ton of flaws, question marks, and need for context instead of using it to piece together the whole thing without even attempting to provide any context.

my gut loves this. my brain agrees 75%. i highlighted what i disagree with.

IversonIsKrazy
08-08-2013, 08:29 PM
Deng/Gay/Gallo. Then Parsons. Think Leonard got up a bit too high. But next year Leonard will be right there at #4.

5ass
08-08-2013, 10:02 PM
The same coaches that pick Kobe Bryant as All NBA 1st Team Defense? I don't know Chi. But it's not my favorite argument. He's a very good defender, but sometimes I think he gets put in the same cast as Allen and Iggy, which he is not.

He isnt. All things considered he's not even as good as Lebron. In terms of SFs Iggy,Bron then Deng. IMO

5ass
08-08-2013, 10:15 PM
With Kawhi and George up there with Deng.

ManningToTyree
08-09-2013, 01:20 AM
Gallo or Deng here

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 02:07 AM
my gut loves this. my brain agrees 75%. i highlighted what i disagree with.

Just trying to get people to think a little differently thats all.

Guppyfighter
08-09-2013, 09:01 AM
AK47 is better than Loul.

85BearsDefense
08-09-2013, 10:04 AM
AK47 is better than Loul.

The NBA forum is past the point of return it is gone and not forgotten.

Sportfan
08-09-2013, 10:10 AM
Lol typical PSD. Kirilenko is better Than Deng at pretty much everything. Literally

ManRam
08-09-2013, 11:50 AM
Lol typical PSD. Kirilenko is better Than Deng at pretty much everything. Literally

He like kinda is. He scored more efficiently on less, but decently comparable volume. He's a superior rebounder, passer and perhaps defender (his versatility is nothing worth shrugging off). Statistically little seperates them, if anything it's advantage AK47.

But even still, I voted Deng the last two times and don't have huge reservations about that. I think Bulls fans do slightly overrate his defense (nothing outside the realm of normal fandom) and I don't think he deserved either AS berth, but he's still a player I'd want on my team (well, not really NOW because I don't want anyone that good/pricey on Orlando) and I'm comfortable voting for him even if the numbers might suggest I'm wrong.

ManRam
08-09-2013, 11:53 AM
Oh, and Ersan Ilyasova might be proving via this poll (the fact he's not even on it and isn't being discussed) that he's the league's most under-appreciated player.

EDIT: I actually crtl + F'd that and I guess he has been brought up. Never mind. But still. Dude can ball.

NYKnickFanatic
08-09-2013, 12:00 PM
Oh, and Ersan Ilyasova might be proving via this poll (the fact he's not even on it and isn't being discussed) that he's the league's most under-appreciated player.

EDIT: I actually crtl + F'd that and I guess he has been brought up. Never mind. But still. Dude can ball.

I think OP is going to categorize him as a PF.

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 12:08 PM
Do you guys honestly think you could swap AK47 and Deng and the Bulls still make the playoffs and win 45 games?

Sadds The Gr8
08-09-2013, 12:09 PM
Ersan has played 4 his whole career...why does he keep being brought up?

Iggz53
08-09-2013, 12:23 PM
I just have to say that whoever thinks Luol is anything short of an elite defensive player either doesn't watch enough Bulls games or doesn't pay any attention to him. Deng imo has the best rotation/help defense in the NBA. He covers everyone's *** and then quickly recovers to his own man like no one else I've seen. And when he does, he does a ****ing amazing job. There's a reason the NBA's best defensive coach plays him more minutes than anyone in the league, and called him the "glue guy" for the team with the leagues best record 2 years in a row. You can look at PPP all you want (which btw will tell you that Boozer has been a great defender for the past 3 years)...but without seeing and understanding how Deng single-handedly impacts the entire team defense, you will not be able to see how saying he's not in Iggy's tier at this point is literally an insult to his game.

Iggz53
08-09-2013, 12:27 PM
Ersan has played 4 his whole career...why does he keep being brought up?

I'm thinking the same thing and I have no clue.

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 12:37 PM
Ilyasova was ****ing terrible for pretty much the first 2/3 of the season last year, no?

Bruno
08-09-2013, 12:56 PM
Just trying to get people to think a little differently thats all.

i'd say most fans off the internet agree with your post. but here we've got a collection of huge fans, stat-heads, haters and homers. you see advanced statistics mentioned here (online) a lot more than anywhere else. I like my stats but I also like my eye test. i find the balance.

sunsfan88
08-09-2013, 01:31 PM
How is Deng still an option! He should have been picked a while ago! No appreciation for defense here.

Yea he should have been picked ahead of Leonard. He didn't have Parker, Duncan and Ginobili drawing all the attention from the defense leading him to get efficient buckets.

Bruno
08-09-2013, 04:00 PM
Yea he should have been picked ahead of Leonard. He didn't have Parker, Duncan and Ginobili drawing all the attention from the defense leading him to get efficient buckets.

dengs TS% was nearly identical to last season when he had Rose "drawing all the attention from the defense leading him to get efficient buckets". dengs lack of efficiency the past two seasons is because his coach is running him into the ground with too many minutes. point remains, KL had a more impressive season and he obliterated dengs production in the post season against the best competition.

tredigs
08-09-2013, 05:36 PM
Ilyasova was ****ing terrible for pretty much the first 2/3 of the season last year, no?

Na. His elite play pretty much exactly paralleled the firing of Skiles and his role in the offense increasing + Boylan laying him 32+ instead of 20-22 mpg. 2nd straight year his 2nd half was top 10 overall forward worthy though. We'll see if he can put up up all year next time, but regardless the net result was top 10 at his position.


Do you guys honestly think you could swap AK47 and Deng and the Bulls still make the playoffs and win 45 games?

Considering Jimmy Butler's the backup and could handle the extra minutes he'd have to take over for AK since he can't handle being run into the ground like Deng, yeah most likely. If it was a lesser backup no.


Just trying to get people to think a little differently thats all.

Pretty sure your line of thinking is the old standard for general home team / Sunday fans. A lot of the people here are the League Pass watching basketball/stat heads who try to take it to the next level.

Guppyfighter
08-09-2013, 09:09 PM
The NBA forum is past the point of return it is gone and not forgotten.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/nIv9W

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/uPhXp

D-Leethal
08-09-2013, 10:20 PM
Na. His elite play pretty much exactly paralleled the firing of Skiles and his role in the offense increasing + Boylan laying him 32+ instead of 20-22 mpg. 2nd straight year his 2nd half was top 10 overall forward worthy though. We'll see if he can put up up all year next time, but regardless the net result was top 10 at his position.



Considering Jimmy Butler's the backup and could handle the extra minutes he'd have to take over for AK since he can't handle being run into the ground like Deng, yeah most likely. If it was a lesser backup no.



Pretty sure your line of thinking is the old standard for general home team / Sunday fans. A lot of the people here are the League Pass watching basketball/stat heads who try to take it to the next level.

I own league pass and watch a ton of games. I am all for stats if you can use them appropriately, acknowledge their flaws when comparing players in completely different situations, not treat them as gospel, and use them to supplement opinions instead of completely form them. The problem is, most of you guys don't acknowledge the glaring flaws that aren't very difficult to see directly on the surface and you use them as a case-in-point evidence when they have a LONG ways to go until you can really do that.

You don't agree with the problems within these stats I have noted in this thread? You don't think taking these stats at face value to compare players on different teams and in different roles/situations has some glaring flaws in its logic?

Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is not taking anything to the next level, its counter productive if anything. You put a ton of weight into flawed stats because thats all that is there. Advanced stats have a long way to go until you can use them to accurately evaluate players across the board. This ain't baseball, you can't accurately isolate individuals in a fluid 5 on 5 sport. Therefore, these stats at face value mean absolutely nothing without proper context. There are probably 3 guys on this forum who seem to understand that and use them accordingly. I think you understand it, but ignore the context during your evaluations anyway.

Since when can you 'advance' any line of thinking using flawed logic?

tredigs
08-09-2013, 11:54 PM
I own league pass and watch a ton of games. I am all for stats if you can use them appropriately, acknowledge their flaws when comparing players in completely different situations, not treat them as gospel, and use them to supplement opinions instead of completely form them. The problem is, most of you guys don't acknowledge the glaring flaws that aren't very difficult to see directly on the surface and you use them as a case-in-point evidence when they have a LONG ways to go until you can really do that.

You don't agree with the problems within these stats I have noted in this thread? You don't think taking these stats at face value to compare players on different teams and in different roles/situations has some glaring flaws in its logic?

Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is not taking anything to the next level, its counter productive if anything. You put a ton of weight into flawed stats because thats all that is there. Advanced stats have a long way to go until you can use them to accurately evaluate players across the board. This ain't baseball, you can't accurately isolate individuals in a fluid 5 on 5 sport. Therefore, these stats at face value mean absolutely nothing without proper context. There are probably 3 guys on this forum who seem to understand that and use them accordingly. I think you understand it, but ignore the context during your evaluations anyway.

Since when can you 'advance' any line of thinking using flawed logic?

There's a reason why half my posts that are about advanced stats end in "context is King". I don't know what I've said that makes you feel otherwise, but I've always mentioned it when getting in depth between players. Even with Deng and Gallo we've discussed it.

No **** it is not a linear offensive/defense game like baseball that is much more simple to explain with stats, but I think you'd find on the by and large that people that get to the point where they're getting in depth into different basketball stats are also watching the most games from teams outside their local cable box.

I don't know any smart stat-type poster on here who doesn't think each stat has their flaws and all need to be put in context. There are only so many hours in a day though, and they're a fine place to start when you know the pluses and minuses of each.

Most just don't get them and don't bother. That's the difference.

Sportfan
08-10-2013, 12:54 PM
Do you guys honestly think you could swap AK47 and Deng and the Bulls still make the playoffs and win 45 games?
Yes. Kirilenko going to Russia for 2 years and then going to the land of irrelevancy in Milwaukee absoluetly killed his value but this guy was one of the big SF's of the mid 2000's.

Also to the poster above while AK isn't a workhorse Deng is, AK can easily play 35+ min. He had 10 40 min games last year and he shot 53%. He shot 51% when playing 31-39 min in 32 games. His quality of play hasn't decreased when playing prolonged minutes.

He's a better passer than Deng, better rebounder, more steals. They are literally identical in 3 point makes, attempst and percentages but deng has made more improvement so he gets the edge. however kirilenko gets to the line more and shoots more efficiently. his offensive ppp is .99 compared to deng's .89. that's a difference of about 150 players.

people say deng's an amazing perimeter defender but his spot up defensive PPP was 1. opponents shoot 40% spot up against deng. Kirilenko against the spot up players shoot 29%, PPP of .75. He's the better defender.

And I'm sure I'll get attacked with OMG U GOTTA SEE DENG PLAY TO SEE HOW VALUABLE HE IS. I'd like everyone to go back and see Kirilenko's games from his jazz days. he was such a fun player to watch