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Mile High Champ
08-04-2013, 02:49 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Andre Iguodala
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Rudy Gay
7) Luol Deng
8) Danny Granger
9) Danilo Gallinari
10) Nicolas Batum

2011 Off-Season Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6) Danny Granger
7) Luol Deng
8) Rudy Gay
9) Gerald Wallace
10) Danilo Gallinari

2010 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Andre Iguodala
8) Rudy Gay
9) Luol Deng
10) Ron Artest

2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Mile High Champ
08-04-2013, 02:54 PM
Mods Please sticky

Lucky.
08-04-2013, 03:15 PM
Meant to vote for Pierce, not Gay.

Bruno
08-04-2013, 03:27 PM
Leonard. Dominant throughout the post-season. very good defender. efficient, lead the post-season Spurs in WS/48 and total win-shares (yes, ahead of Duncan and Parker). He was second out of all players in win-shares for the 2013 post-season, behind only LeBron James.

Pierce is old, posted negative win-share numbers last post-season (although I think he still has an argument). Deng plays great defense and is a total minute work-horse but his advanced line is a bit pedestrian (also posted negative win-share numbers in the post-season). Rudy Gays advanced is mediocre. AK-47 has a very interesting advanced line. Danilos advanced line is more respectable than Gays...

Leonard with confidence here for me.

Guppyfighter
08-04-2013, 03:30 PM
Pierce.

sunsfan88
08-04-2013, 04:09 PM
Leonard. Dominant throughout the post-season. very good defender. efficient, lead the post-season Spurs in WS/48 and total win-shares (yes, ahead of Duncan and Parker). He was second out of all players in win-shares for the 2013 post-season, behind only LeBron James.

Pierce is old, posted negative win-share numbers last post-season (although I think he still has an argument). Deng plays great defense and is a total minute work-horse but his advanced line is a bit pedestrian (also posted negative win-share numbers in the post-season). Rudy Gays advanced is mediocre. AK-47 has a very interesting advanced line. Danilos advanced line is more respectable than Gays...

Leonard with confidence here for me.
The rankings aren't based solely off post season.

Or else Nate Robinson would have got a top 5 spot in the PG rankings.

SugeKnight
08-04-2013, 04:59 PM
This one is really a toss up IMO. Leaning towards Deng, Pierce, or Gallo

tredigs
08-04-2013, 05:37 PM
Pierce is still better than Deng for sure. I'd put him with the Kawhi, AK and Batum tier. Gallo's got an argument, but I'd go PP for being the much better playmaker.

Forwards are looking so much better than SG.

Kashmir13579
08-04-2013, 05:56 PM
Deng here. He played an insane amount of minutes, willing his undermanned team to a quietly successful season. That can't be said for Pierce.

sunsfan88
08-04-2013, 06:16 PM
Pierce averaged 18 pts, 6 rebounds, 5 assists and 3 turnovers a game. His FG% of 43% is the lowest of his career.

Not sure I like Pierce here.

tredigs
08-04-2013, 06:22 PM
What can be said for Pierce is that he ranked significantly higher than Deng in PER, WS/48, RAPM, and both offensively + defensively per Synergy. Pierce also scored more and on much higher efficiency (.559 TS to .508 for Deng), was the better rebounder, and the better passer/playmaker on a team where much more was needed from him while he was on the court (27.5 USG% to 21.5 USG% for Deng helps show that).

Deng put in a lot of work, but he was just one piece in a machine. He wasn't carrying them.

No real argument between those two.

tredigs
08-04-2013, 06:29 PM
Surprised to see Deng in the running with PP while Gallo has no votes. He's the better of those two pretty easily imo.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-04-2013, 06:37 PM
Leonard. Dominant throughout the post-season. very good defender. efficient, lead the post-season Spurs in WS/48 and total win-shares (yes, ahead of Duncan and Parker). He was second out of all players in win-shares for the 2013 post-season, behind only LeBron James.

Pierce is old, posted negative win-share numbers last post-season (although I think he still has an argument). Deng plays great defense and is a total minute work-horse but his advanced line is a bit pedestrian (also posted negative win-share numbers in the post-season). Rudy Gays advanced is mediocre. AK-47 has a very interesting advanced line. Danilos advanced line is more respectable than Gays...

Leonard with confidence here for me.

Your the man Brunoo,
Borat Sagdiev totally agrees with this post.
Kawhi all day

Chronz
08-04-2013, 06:56 PM
Voting Pierce to keep Deng out

b@llhog24
08-04-2013, 07:11 PM
The Truth.

Greet
08-04-2013, 09:20 PM
Leonard. Dominant throughout the post-season. very good defender. efficient, lead the post-season Spurs in WS/48 and total win-shares (yes, ahead of Duncan and Parker). He was second out of all players in win-shares for the 2013 post-season, behind only LeBron James.

Pierce is old, posted negative win-share numbers last post-season (although I think he still has an argument). Deng plays great defense and is a total minute work-horse but his advanced line is a bit pedestrian (also posted negative win-share numbers in the post-season). Rudy Gays advanced is mediocre. AK-47 has a very interesting advanced line. Danilos advanced line is more respectable than Gays...

Leonard with confidence here for me.

Seems like your main argument is through play-off win shares. Doesn't seem right

Sadds The Gr8
08-04-2013, 09:55 PM
Deng with this much votes? wtf?

JLynn943
08-05-2013, 01:07 AM
Paul Pierce 5th? :laugh2: not anymore

rockets-fan
08-05-2013, 01:52 AM
Give me parsons here all day...actually I voted parsons but I'd switch it to Deng, then Parsons

Bruno
08-05-2013, 01:59 AM
The rankings aren't based solely off post season.

Or else Nate Robinson would have got a top 5 spot in the PG rankings.

leonard had a respectable regular season as well, he was no slouch. and even though these rankings aren't based solely off the post-season it certinly counts and he was by far the best out of any players left on the board. and he did it against the leagues top competition during the most competitive point in the season.

what you're saying about Nate isn't true. he had a pedestrian post-season despite a couple of dominant games. Robinsons post season advanced line:
PER: 15.6
TS%: .539
WS/48: .060

Bruno
08-05-2013, 02:02 AM
Seems like your main argument is through play-off win shares. Doesn't seem right

i also mentioned defense.

Bruno
08-05-2013, 02:04 AM
Your the man Brunoo,
Borat Sagdiev totally agrees with this post.
Kawhi all day

i just think i've seen enough, that's all. dudes got game. we aren't talking about finals MVP pierce anymore.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 02:21 AM
Paul Pierce 5th? :laugh2: not anymore

Over your Deng vote? With ease, that argument already got laid out. A declining Pierce still dominated Deng in every way.

Kawhi's a fair vote, but his team role is just so much less than Pierce that it's a tough sell. 15.6 USG% is tiny offensively, but he does play that 3-5th option + wing D role better than anyone. And he definitely stepped it up in the playoffs.

DoMeFavors
08-05-2013, 02:29 AM
Still confused as to why Paul wasnt 4th?

First of all PP is better than Iggy, to say iggy is better is disrespectful to the truth

Iggy played sg the lineup was Lawson,Iggy,Gallo,Faried,Kufos. And even no in GSW he is a SG. So I dont get that.

TrueFan420
08-05-2013, 03:34 AM
Still confused as to why Paul wasnt 4th?

First of all PP is better than Iggy, to say iggy is better is disrespectful to the truth

Iggy played sg the lineup was Lawson,Iggy,Gallo,Faried,Kufos. And even no in GSW he is a SG. So I dont get that.

Iggy will be the starting sf for the warriors but will see time at sg as well.

He got the 4 spot because of his ridiculous impact he had on the defensive end. And he put up great numbers in the playoffs.

5ass
08-05-2013, 04:16 AM
Pierce
Batum
Deng
AK
Leonard
Parsons

sunsfan88
08-05-2013, 05:38 AM
leonard had a respectable regular season as well, he was no slouch. and even though these rankings aren't based solely off the post-season it certinly counts and he was by far the best out of any players left on the board. and he did it against the leagues top competition during the most competitive point in the season.

what you're saying about Nate isn't true. he had a pedestrian post-season despite a couple of dominant games. Robinsons post season advanced line:
PER: 15.6
TS%: .539
WS/48: .060

Leonard averaged 12 pts and 6 rebounds a game during the regular season. Granted he was very efficient doing it but 12 & 6 even while providing great defense isn't enough to be a top 5 SF in the game.

In the future sure but now? No.

sunsfan88
08-05-2013, 05:40 AM
Still confused as to why Paul wasnt 4th?

First of all PP is better than Iggy, to say iggy is better is disrespectful to the truth

Iggy played sg the lineup was Lawson,Iggy,Gallo,Faried,Kufos. And even no in GSW he is a SG. So I dont get that.

God that jersey D-Will is wearing in your sig is so ugly. Looks like high school practice jerseys.

JerseyPalahniuk
08-05-2013, 10:59 AM
God that jersey D-Will is wearing in your sig is so ugly. Looks like high school practice jerseys.

hahaha agreed. I think it was one of those Christmas Day monochrome ones.

GREATNESS ONE
08-05-2013, 11:12 AM
My personal list no stats, advanced #'s, playoff ratings or WS/, just the way I would take them off the board.

5. Deng
6. Leonard
7. Pierce
8. Rudy Gay
9. Kirelenko
10. Batum

dwoyo
08-05-2013, 11:46 AM
Toss-up between Pierce and Deng. I'd be satisfied whichever way it goes.

But here I say Deng, simply because of all the minutes he endured and him leading the way to a 5th seed for the Chicago Bulls. Remember: one was an All-Star this year, the other wasn't.

ManningToTyree
08-05-2013, 12:05 PM
Pierce

tredigs
08-05-2013, 04:03 PM
Toss-up between Pierce and Deng. I'd be satisfied whichever way it goes.

But here I say Deng, simply because of all the minutes he endured and him leading the way to a 5th seed for the Chicago Bulls. Remember: one was an All-Star this year, the other wasn't.

I'd argue he wasn't their best player on either side of the ball though. AS selection? Meh, who cares. In every statistical category advanced or per-game Pierce one upped him. That's far more telling.

38mpg is nice, but not enough to make a difference when PP still played 33. I mean, the #5 SG played 23mpg the past 2 seasons.

The more fun argument will be arguing Gallo over Deng. I'd say Gallo was definitely better.

Chronz
08-05-2013, 04:23 PM
My personal list no stats, advanced #'s, playoff ratings or WS/, just the way I would take them off the board.

5. Deng
6. Leonard
7. Pierce
8. Rudy Gay
9. Kirelenko
10. Batum

Is the Gay pick based on what you think he will do this year?

Iggz53
08-05-2013, 05:51 PM
4. Pierce
5. Iguodala
6. Leonard
7. Deng
8. Batum
9. AK47
10. Gallinari

Sorry, I wouldn't rank Rudy Gay above any of those guys. Other than scoring, he provides very little assets and he does it very inefficiently.

Bruno
08-05-2013, 06:27 PM
Leonard averaged 12 pts and 6 rebounds a game during the regular season. Granted he was very efficient doing it but 12 & 6 even while providing great defense isn't enough to be a top 5 SF in the game.

In the future sure but now? No.

you're gona counter by giving counting statistics, and two at that? lets talk advanced line.

Bruno
08-05-2013, 06:30 PM
i can't believe leonard has so few votes. psd has no respect for the post-season (the real season against the best competition under the most high pressure environments, where the men are separated from the boys).

mrblisterdundee
08-05-2013, 06:44 PM
Pierce earned this spot. I suspect he'll be down near 10 next season.

mrblisterdundee
08-05-2013, 06:47 PM
i can't believe leonard has so few votes. psd has no respect for the post-season (the real season against the best competition under the most high pressure environments, where the men are separated from the boys).

Paul Pierce has separated himself from the boys plenty of times in the playoffs.
I do agree, though, that Kawhi Leonard's playoff performance is being overlooked. Andre Igoudala got the fourth spot because of his postseason performance, and he only lasted six games. Leonard, meanwhile, played more than 20 and was the second-most effective in the playoffs after Igoudala.

D-Leethal
08-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Deng. You can throw out Pierces stats all you want but Deng's value doesn't come from putting up pretty stats. Pierce doesn't bring much outside of his offensive production at this point. Deng is an all-NBA caliber defender, but that doesn't matter to most here - efficiency stats FTW.

Is there a reason Paul George isn't on here?

TrueFan420
08-05-2013, 07:59 PM
Deng. You can throw out Pierces stats all you want but Deng's value doesn't come from putting up pretty stats. Pierce doesn't bring much outside of his offensive production at this point. Deng is an all-NBA caliber defender, but that doesn't matter to most here - efficiency stats FTW.

Is there a reason Paul George isn't on here?cause they said he's gonna be a sg next year but are dumb cause this is about last season where he finally played his natural position, sf, all year. He should be at 4 with everyone sliding down one after that.

D-Leethal
08-05-2013, 08:02 PM
^Agreed.

I think starting him next to Granger is a mistake. They should trade Granger for a legit 2 and let George continue to blossom at the 3. Copeland can provide the versatile scoring role at the 3/4 that they would get with Granger anyway.

Kashmir13579
08-05-2013, 10:02 PM
What can be said for Pierce is that he ranked significantly higher than Deng in PER, WS/48, RAPM, and both offensively + defensively per Synergy. Pierce also scored more and on much higher efficiency (.559 TS to .508 for Deng), was the better rebounder, and the better passer/playmaker on a team where much more was needed from him while he was on the court (27.5 USG% to 21.5 USG% for Deng helps show that).


Deng put in a lot of work, but he was just one piece in a machine. He wasn't carrying them.

No real argument between those two.

Whereas Pierce carried the Celtics to what? Did Pierce not have KG for more games than Deng had Noah? Were the Bulls not also riddled with injuries and a lackluster roster for many points in the season? Did Deng not lead the NBA in minutes played? But i guess there is "no real argument" because Pierce's PER is 3 points higher.

You're a real black and white when it comes to your WSs and your PER and your RAPM. (i don't even know what RAPM is btw) While i appreciate numbers for helping paint a picture thats already 3/4s finished, quoting PER and WS/48 and calling it the bottom-line is laughable.

Kashmir13579
08-05-2013, 10:03 PM
Deng. You can throw out Pierces stats all you want but Deng's value doesn't come from putting up pretty stats. Pierce doesn't bring much outside of his offensive production at this point. Deng is an all-NBA caliber defender, but that doesn't matter to most here - efficiency stats FTW.

Is there a reason Paul George isn't on here?
The thing is Pierce wasn't even efficient. Neither was Deng but that dude was a straight workhorse for his team. Pierce is just Pierce being Pierce on the decline. I'm over it.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 10:16 PM
Whereas Pierce carried the Celtics to what? Did Pierce not have KG for more games than Deng had Noah? Were the Bulls not also riddled with injuries and a lackluster roster for many points in the season? Did Deng not lead the NBA in minutes played? But i guess there is "no real argument" because Pierce's PER is 3 points higher.

You're a real black and white when it comes to your WSs and your PER and your RAPM. (i don't even know what RAPM is btw) While i appreciate numbers for helping paint a picture thats already 3/4s finished, quoting PER and WS/48 and calling it the bottom line is laughable, at least to me it is.

Are we trying to say that Deng did any of the lifting in getting them past Brooklyn? Yes, he played a lot and hustled his lil' tail off, but he was horrible. His sole argument rests on the fact that the Bulls had a better year and he played a few more minutes each night.

It's a tough sell to call me "black and white with WSs and PER and RAPM" when those were 3 of like 8 things I mentioned that all pointed to PP being better. The others being the better scorer (.559 to .509 TS% is close to you in scoring efficiency, by the way?), playmaker, rebounder, and defender by both %'s and Synergy. I'd give Deng the slight nod on defense because he spent a bit more time on better wing players, but PP's defense has always gone underrated. He's still very much a 2 way player - opponents putting up .79 ppp against him overall and 0.65 ppp in isolation can't just go unnoticed, it's about as good as it gets.

sunsfan88
08-05-2013, 10:53 PM
you're gona counter by giving counting statistics, and two at that? lets talk advanced line.

I feel like advanced stats such as PER is not as reliable as some think. I have seen instances where a good player is ranked much lower than a mediocre/bad player. And the difference between those players could be huge.

sunsfan88
08-05-2013, 10:55 PM
double post.

sunsfan88
08-05-2013, 10:55 PM
cause they said he's gonna be a sg next year but are dumb cause this is about last season where he finally played his natural position, sf, all year. He should be at 4 with everyone sliding down one after that.

George would be #3 if he was on the list as a SF. Only LeBron and Durant are better. I would take George over Melo any day.

Kashmir13579
08-05-2013, 11:05 PM
Are we trying to say that Deng did any of the lifting in getting them past Brooklyn? Yes, he played a lot and hustled his lil' tail off, but he was horrible. His sole argument rests on the fact that the Bulls had a better year and he played a few more minutes each night.

It's a tough sell to call me "black and white with WSs and PER and RAPM" when those were 3 of like 8 things I mentioned that all pointed to PP being better. The others being the better scorer (.559 to .509 TS% is close to you in scoring efficiency, by the way?), playmaker, rebounder, and defender by both %'s and Synergy. I'd give Deng the slight nod on defense because he spent a bit more time on better wing players, but PP's defense has always gone underrated. He's still very much a 2 way player - opponents putting up .79 ppp against him overall and 0.65 ppp in isolation can't just go unnoticed, it's about as good as it gets.
"He's a better defender by both %s and Synergy", means absolutely **** all to me. The fact that you subsequently give Deng an edge defensively means not even you give credence to these numbers. (Not that i don't agree Pierce is an underrated defender)

Sure, there is a wide discrepancy in TS%, but their offensive rating is basically the same, which leads me to believe Pierces high turnover-rate playing distributor in Rondo's absence hurt his overall offensive efficiency. albeit different roles in different offenses, all-in-all i'd call it a wash between the two players, at least when talking about raw production, which seems to be the language you speak.

Rebounding is a wash too, Deng being the better offensive rebounder but things evening out when you look at TRB%.

What is left? PER, WS/48, and RAPM whatever the hell that is.

TrueFan420
08-05-2013, 11:47 PM
George would be #3 if he was on the list as a SF. Only LeBron and Durant are better. I would take George over Melo any day.

I'd wanna see him put up comparable numbers again before I put him over melo but I think he will and honestly would take him over melo all day too because he plays on both sides of the court. But melo would still have won 3rd on here.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 12:16 AM
I feel like advanced stats such as PER is not as reliable as some think. I have seen instances where a good player is ranked much lower than a mediocre/bad player. And the difference between those players could be huge.

Theres more to advanced stats than PER.