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RLundi
08-02-2013, 05:30 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-kobe-bryant-houston-rockets-james-harden-180400781.html


COMMENTARY | There comes a time in every great player's career when he is surpassed by one of his younger peers.

In my generation, we saw Michael Jordan retire (three times, but let's just call the second retirement the real retirement for argument's sake), and we saw Kobe Bryant emerge as the best shooting guard in the league. Now, it's time that Bryant loses that title and hands the reigns over to one of the league's best young stars: James Harden.

Harden was absolutely spectacular last year for the Houston Rockets, while Bryant was part of a Los Angeles Lakers team that went through one of the more disappointing seasons in NBA history. As Bryant has gotten older, he's become more of diva, thus making it harder for talented guys to play next to him.

Last year was the culmination of everything wrong with Kobe Bryant. He struggled to fit in with his bigs (Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol), threw his coach under the Buss (pun intended), and, to top it all off, he ruptured his Achilles with only a few games left in the regular season. Bryant was joined by a declining, but still offensively potent Steve Nash, and one of the three best centers in the NBA in Howard. but Bryant struggled to be the backbone of the team amongst a host of injuries and the media frenzy that surrounds Lakers basketball.

On the other hand, Harden led the upstart Rockets to their first playoff berth in four years while becoming a bona fide superstar despite his lack of excessive length or athleticism. In his first year as a starter, Harden averaged 25.9 points, 5.8 assists, and 4.9 rebounds per game, and he played a big part in Howard's decision to leave Los Angeles. The smoothness and intelligence of Harden's game is a thing of beauty to watch, as the 23-year-old lefty possesses a knack for scoring in every imaginable way.

From his 3-point shooting to his ability to finish through contact to his late-game prowess to his staggering Euro-step, Harden has asserted himself as the most creative scorer in the league. On top of his scoring ability, Harden is an underrated passer and ball handler, which will become more apparent as the talent around him improves.

While the notion that Harden is now a better player than Bryant may seem ridiculous to some, Bryant's rise from exciting young player to the best shooting guard in the league to the best player in the league, was also gradual. In 2000, when the Lakers won their first title, Bryant asserted himself as the best shooting guard in the post-Jordan era. However, it wasn't for another few years before Bryant became a more dominant player than Shaquille O'Neal. Once Shaq's impact on the game lessened due to age (and weight), Bryant had the Lakers all to himself. Finally, somewhere around 2005 or 2006, Bryant became the best player in the league (although he most likely thought he was since the age of 8).
Within a few years, though, Bryant was surpassed by LeBron James as the best player in basketball, but putting a year on that isn't so simple. My personal opinion is that LeBron
took the crown around 2008, while many argue that Bryant was the best until LeBron put a ring on his finger in 2012.

Once Kevin Durant hit his prime, which was during the 2009-10 season when he averaged 30.1 points per game and won his first of three straight scoring titles, he became the league's best pure scorer -- a title that Bryant held for a number of years.
Finally, we've reached the point where Bryant loses his crown as the league's best shooting guard, and James Harden receives it. This doesn't mean that Harden will have a better prime than Bryant, or that he'll have more rings than Bryant, because that question can't be answered until the two of them have their jerseys hanging from the rafters. Bryant's demise was inevitable, and two years ago, no one in their right mind thought that Harden had a chance at rivaling Bryant for the league's best 2. However, with Bryant's latest injury and age, the nightmare that was last year for the Lakers, and the promise that Houston showed last season, the argument can now be made.

They say that when superstars begin to decline, they're usually the last ones to know. Judging by Bryant's overall demeanor and his Jordan-like competitive nature, he'll probably be on social security before it actually hits him that he's no longer the best. There's no doubt that Bryant is one of the greatest players of all time, even if his first three rings were as the Robin to Shaq's Batman.

For all the greatness that Bryant has shown over the years, there have been plenty of bumps in the road: his ugly breakup with Shaq, the years between his third and fourth titles, his inability to adjust his game to his team's personnel (except when it meant shooting more), and the fact that he couldn't win a title without Phil Jackson, to name a few.

I know there are a lot of people out there shaking their heads, but Kobe's reign as the king of the 2 is over. There's a new sheriff in town, and, my god, he has a great beard.



Some interesting points:

1. Interesting that the article doesn't mention Wade at all. Some (myself included) think Wade surpassed Kobe a couple of seasons ago and Kobe only regained his best SG in the league moniker this season.

2. Idk if I have ever considered Kobe the clear-cut best player in the league, though I'm sure a case could easily be made.

3. 2008 is probably a solid year to assert LBJ finally surpassed Kobe, but I think it could've been earlier, at least the year prior.

4. Last year, I thought Kobe was better than Wade and Harden, but I think moving forward, especially with injury, Kobe will no longer ever be the best SG in the league.

Discuss...?

EDIT: Not a bait and troll thread, please keep it civil, I don't want another warning/infraction :p

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-02-2013, 05:42 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-kobe-bryant-houston-rockets-james-harden-180400781.html



Some interesting points:

1. Interesting that the article doesn't mention Wade at all. Some (myself included) think Wade surpassed Kobe a couple of seasons ago and Kobe only regained his best SG in the league moniker this season.

2. Idk if I have ever considered Kobe the clear-cut best player in the league, though I'm sure a case could easily be made.

3. 2008 is probably a solid year to assert LBJ finally surpassed Kobe, but I think it could've been earlier, at least the year prior.

4. Last year, I thought Kobe was better than Wade and Harden, but I think moving forward, especially with injury, Kobe will no longer ever be the best SG in the league.

Discuss...?

EDIT: Not a bait and troll thread, please keep it civil, I don't want another warning/infraction :p

Kobe has been the best SG in the league for ages now. Wade was better in 11, that's it. Next year Kobe will surprise everyone and still be a top two SG.

Lebron didn't surpass Kobe as the best player until 09. To say that Kobe has never been the best player in the league in any year is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

lakersiznumber1
08-02-2013, 05:51 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-kobe-bryant-houston-rockets-james-harden-180400781.html



Some interesting points:

1. Interesting that the article doesn't mention Wade at all. Some (myself included) think Wade surpassed Kobe a couple of seasons ago and Kobe only regained his best SG in the league moniker this season.

2. Idk if I have ever considered Kobe the clear-cut best player in the league, though I'm sure a case could easily be made.

3. 2008 is probably a solid year to assert LBJ finally surpassed Kobe, but I think it could've been earlier, at least the year prior.

4. Last year, I thought Kobe was better than Wade and Harden, but I think moving forward, especially with injury, Kobe will no longer ever be the best SG in the league.

Discuss...?

EDIT: Not a bait and troll thread, please keep it civil, I don't want another warning/infraction :p


kobe is still the best where have u been

Kevj77
08-02-2013, 05:56 PM
Kobe and Wade have been the top two SGs for awhile now Harden is challenging them. I think Kobe has been slightly better though.

Kobe was one of a handful of players that could have been considered the best player in the NBA between the decline of Shaq and the rise of Lebron during the mid to late 2000s. The other players would be Tmac and Duncan. I personally believe Kobe was the best player in the NBA from around 2005-2007.

smith&wesson
08-02-2013, 05:58 PM
1. this is one persons opinion and means nothing.
2. harden is one season removed from being a 6th man.
3. you dont just get labled "the best? with out really winning anything. simply putting up great stats does not make you the best.
4. if lebron had to win before he could be mentioned amongst the greats, I dont see why it would be any different for harden or durant etc. double standard if you ask me.

TrueFan420
08-02-2013, 06:08 PM
kobe is still the best where have u been

Yea the whole laker in your screen name doesn't indicate bias at all

RLundi
08-02-2013, 06:14 PM
1. this is one persons opinion and means nothing.
2. harden is one season removed from being a 6th man.
3. you dont just get labled "the best? with out really winning anything. simply putting up great stats does not make you the best.
4. if lebron had to win before he could be mentioned amongst the greats, I dont see why it would be any different for harden or durant etc. double standard if you ask me.

LeBron has long been considered the best player in the league. The fact that he didn't win a ring was inconsequential. This has nothing to do with an all-time great status. It's solely upon ranking in the league right now.

3RDASYSTEM
08-02-2013, 06:48 PM
Kobe has been the best SG in the league for ages now. Wade was better in 11, that's it. Next year Kobe will surprise everyone and still be a top two SG.

Lebron didn't surpass Kobe as the best player until 09. To say that Kobe has never been the best player in the league in any year is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

how long did it take him again to claim the best at something again?

this again shows why he is so overrated its scary and borderline travesty

how can it take a player by the 2006 yr to claim the best title and you came in the league in 96' draft? that's a ****ing decade worth of balling to see over and over the same damn thing or do you get off on watching the same thing over and over

its reason why I rank IVERSON and even BARRY(NFL) so high on all time list because they were that damn good pre NFL/NBA

so to me IVERSON was basically the 2nd best guard in the league, and no less than top 5 rookie year, same with BARRY, so how in the world can they fall off? injuries only right?

I look at bean the same fashion, he entered the league as a 6th man runner up and to fulltime starter, HARDEN is a 6th man winner and now a full time starter, no difference in his game at all from OKC, just more minutes/usage, HARDEN will not go down as a top 10 player if he wins 3 rings for the ROCKETS, same as I looked at bean when he won like 3 rings his first 6yrs, and then magically became the best player in season 10

go back and look at the best of the best alltime like WILT-ALCINDOR-BIRD and we can bet any amount of $$$ you got that they didn't take 10yrs to be viewed as the best player in league or at position, same with others in my top 15-20 players, bean is not in that group but its not a knock on him

just like it wont be a knock on HARDEN for not making it as well

you have to admit they took similar paths, imagine had HARDEN played in LA he'd trade places with bean and be a top 10 player ever because of rings and the path of 6th man turned full time starter

congrats to both, one player to another

and once again reason I don't use rings when ranking individual players is because I don't use it against them when they don't win it all that year, they game is they game regardless year in and out, see the difference

RUSS won 11 in 13yrs and he's not on majority of peoples list no. 1

bean won 5 rings in 17yrs so that's 12yrs of not winning a ship, that doesn't mean anything to me nor to the bean supporters who scream he has 5 rings but never mention the other 12yrs of nothing, now if this were tennis or golf then i'd be at your mercy on this ring thing but they all came in the league as individuals drafted to fit the 'team', not the other way around but that seems to be the trend since WILT's days

JORDAN let PIPP handle the rock and even KUKOC/ARMSTRONG and JORDAN developed a post game because of a couple guys named BILL/LUC and even throw in WORM and HORACE, they had no post presence so he took it upon himself, bean has played with dominant postmen of they era and still fought with them for post touches, see the difference?

IVERSON switched from PG to SG for betterment of the team since all those defenders could only defend, see the difference? he didn't dominate the ball, he let mckie and snow handle the pill while he ran off screens or whatever to get off a shot, and for some odd sad reason people on here take it as if he was playing with 2 ALL NBA caliber players and jacking up 25-30 shots to keep his team in the game, see the difference?

bean got tired of being second fiddle to SHAQ, then couldn't get out of 1st rd until GASOL came to save him then told GASOL to put his big boy pants on after 3 FINALS in 5yrs, then endorsed MIKE D only to take NASH out of his element by being him, he must still have hard feelings over that 06' MVP award NASH stole from him so he took him completely out and notched all the dimes

I bet HARDEN would love to play with SHAQ/IVERSON/NASH/GASOL, just look what he did with KD/RUSS combo

HARDEN has his own game, bean is a mirrorimage copycat, see the difference?

DR_1
08-02-2013, 06:53 PM
He is still the best

bullishsince87
08-02-2013, 06:55 PM
Harden needs to shoot over 43% to be considered the best shooting guard

3RDASYSTEM
08-02-2013, 07:03 PM
Harden needs to shoot over 43% to be considered the best shooting guard

That's not far off of 45%

rockets-fan
08-02-2013, 07:06 PM
1. this is one persons opinion and means nothing.
2. harden is one season removed from being a 6th man.
3. you dont just get labled "the best? with out really winning anything. simply putting up great stats does not make you the best.
4. if lebron had to win before he could be mentioned amongst the greats, I dont see why it would be any different for harden or durant etc. double standard if you ask me.

Lebron had to win a ring to be consider amount the greatest if all time not the best sf. No one is even thinking of comparing harden to a great of all time, just the best sg in the league and I'm sorry but stats do give you that.

Harden is the best sg in the league now. If you don't think so your pretty bias ala lakers fans. Last year Kobe was the only sg who you could say was better but now, no way Harden is the best sg.

jerellh528
08-02-2013, 07:50 PM
Lebron had to win a ring to be consider amount the greatest if all time not the best sf. No one is even thinking of comparing harden to a great of all time, just the best sg in the league and I'm sorry but stats do give you that.
Harden is the best sg in the league now. If you don't think so your pretty bias ala lakers fans. Last year Kobe was the only sg who you could say was better but now, no way Harden is the best sg.

Last year Kobe was the best sg and a top 5 player. To say harden is better now is basically speculation until the season starts and we can make that assessment.

Chronz
08-02-2013, 08:38 PM
Harden needs to shoot over 43% to be considered the best shooting guard

Or maybe you need to up your stats game

Kevj77
08-02-2013, 08:40 PM
how long did it take him again to claim the best at something again?

this again shows why he is so overrated its scary and borderline travesty

how can it take a player by the 2006 yr to claim the best title and you came in the league in 96' draft? that's a ****ing decade worth of balling to see over and over the same damn thing or do you get off on watching the same thing over and over
That isn't a knock on Kobe. It's not like he took a decade to develope, although he did improve almost every year.

It took him a decade to be considered the top player (or at least one of the few who could be considered the top player) because Shaq was just that dominant. Shaq and Lebron are freaks of nature it isn't a knock on other players to not be that good.

rockets-fan
08-02-2013, 09:05 PM
Last year Kobe was the best sg and a top 5 player. To say harden is better now is basically speculation until the season starts and we can make that assessment.

That's just your opinion, I would take Harden last year over Kobelast year, but like I said, Kobe is the only one that can be put above Harden.

b@llhog24
08-02-2013, 09:10 PM
That ship sailed off a little while ago.

still1ballin
08-02-2013, 09:34 PM
Show them again Kobe...

lakersiznumber1
08-02-2013, 09:41 PM
That's just your opinion, I would take Harden last year over Kobelast year, but like I said, Kobe is the only one that can be put above Harden.

you would take harden last year after this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUeOkokfIxg
you must of missed this last summer when kobe took him to school

JerseyPalahniuk
08-02-2013, 09:42 PM
you would take harden last year after this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUeOkokfIxg
you must of missed this last summer when kobe took him to school

I didn't know this thread was about the better 1 on 1 player between the two.

Bruno
08-02-2013, 09:48 PM
Harden needs to shoot over 43% to be considered the best shooting guard

that 43% figure is forgiven when you weigh how dominant and efficient he is at the strike.

tredigs
08-02-2013, 09:55 PM
By pure RAPM it went Harden > Wade 1/2. Kobe's massive negative on the defensive end knocked him down a bit to #4, #2 offensively to Harden.

ArmLaker
08-02-2013, 09:59 PM
Even numbers wise he wasn't better than Bryant. So no, at least not yet.

You could make that argument if he passed Wade or not(I think he's almost there).

This is all just based on the past season, so how these 3 will play or if Wade or Bryant can find that fountain of youth again remains to be seen.

Bostonjorge
08-02-2013, 10:41 PM
I love kobe treads. I never get tired of reading about kobes greatness.

GiantsSwaGG
08-02-2013, 10:55 PM
:laugh: this made laugh.... Dude is clueless

AddiX
08-03-2013, 12:07 AM
Kobe isn't even realavant on this lakers team, so who cares.

Chronz
08-03-2013, 12:15 AM
you would take harden last year after this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUeOkokfIxg
you must of missed this last summer when kobe took him to school

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWp7T6E8ug8

Lakers Ghost
08-03-2013, 12:15 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-kobe-bryant-houston-rockets-james-harden-180400781.html



Some interesting points:

1. Interesting that the article doesn't mention Wade at all. Some (myself included) think Wade surpassed Kobe a couple of seasons ago and Kobe only regained his best SG in the league moniker this season.

2. Idk if I have ever considered Kobe the clear-cut best player in the league, though I'm sure a case could easily be made.

3. 2008 is probably a solid year to assert LBJ finally surpassed Kobe, but I think it could've been earlier, at least the year prior.

4. Last year, I thought Kobe was better than Wade and Harden, but I think moving forward, especially with injury, Kobe will no longer ever be the best SG in the league.

Discuss...?

EDIT: Not a bait and troll thread, please keep it civil, I don't want another warning/infraction :p

an article from yahoo....
wade isnt better than kobe and will never be better than kobe, wade is already showing signs of declining meaning that he is only going to get worse. As for harden he is good and improving but still isnt better than kobe at this point of his career he might be the one of the best sg next season depending on how kobe returns from injuries. the question is if harden will have a better career than kobe and this is still questionable.

nolafan33
08-03-2013, 12:50 AM
To be considered the best at a certain position you have to play both ends, which Harden doesn't even come close to doing. Still give me Kobe.

Twins Fanatic
08-03-2013, 01:43 AM
I think hardens numbers dip with Dwight there, no doubt he still a top 3 SG. However, I think he benefits from a good passing center, an up tempo game, and the pick and role, which sadly dwight doesn't fit into.

SportsFanatic10
08-03-2013, 01:48 AM
kobe lost that to wade years ago...

THE MTL
08-03-2013, 01:57 AM
In my opinion he was the best SG in the NBA last season

naps
08-03-2013, 02:20 AM
This isn't 2006. This thread is 7 years late.

carlthack
08-03-2013, 02:20 AM
Has Kobe retired?

Then he hasn't given that up yet. Or being one of the top 3 players in the league.

Kobe2324
08-03-2013, 02:21 AM
harden and wade? lol at what point were either of these players other than wade in 2006 finals better than kobe, i dont thing being better for one series makes you the best these two never were and never will be in the sam breath as Kobe and Kobe is still better than both of them...

dnl123
08-03-2013, 02:38 AM
harden and wade? lol at what point were either of these players other than wade in 2006 finals better than kobe, i dont thing being better for one series makes you the best these two never were and never will be in the sam breath as Kobe and Kobe is still better than both of them...

No offense but I'm not sure your opinion is even close to being routed in reality with your screen name. Kobe fans seem to think more PPG automatically makes someone a better player.

majmarcus
08-03-2013, 03:00 AM
Wait...who's Kobe? Let me know when a thread is created to discuss the REAL Coby...Karl. oh yeah!!!!

naps
08-03-2013, 03:50 AM
harden and wade? lol at what point were either of these players other than wade in 2006 finals better than kobe, i dont thing being better for one series makes you the best these two never were and never will be in the sam breath as Kobe and Kobe is still better than both of them...

And to think some people still wonder about the word kobephiles (https://www.google.com/search?q=kobephiles&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#client=firefox-a&hs=8js&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=kobephiles&nfpr=1&sa=X&ei=s7X8UYPfAYvm8gS_8YCICQ&ved=0CCsQvgUoAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.50165853,d.eWU&fp=4f642a9abe976b44&biw=1173&bih=626)....Well, it's about to be added in Merriam Webster's word bank.

DanG
08-03-2013, 04:39 AM
03-04 - Kobe
04-05 - Wade (because he was better in the playoffs)
05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Kobe (both had good regular seasons, but Kobe was better in the playoffs)
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Kobe (Wade was better in the regular season, but Kobe was better in the playoffs)
09-10 - Wade
10-11 - Wade
11-12 - Wade
12-13 - Kobe

RiceOnTheRun
08-03-2013, 05:42 AM
Harden is the clear-cut top SG in the league next season. The only other two guys that can even have a sliver of an argument against that would be Kobe and Wade. Wade doesn't seem like he can handle the stress of a whole season at an elite level anymore, and Kobe will be coming back from an achilles injury. Not to say that they won't perform well, but relative to their prior seasons, they won't be coming close.

I would argue that Harden is a completely different player now than he was 12 months ago. Being the leader of a team and having to carry the load is 100% different than having two top 10 players by your side.

RiceOnTheRun
08-03-2013, 05:48 AM
Has Kobe retired?

Then he hasn't given that up yet. Or being one of the top 3 players in the league.

Lebron
KD
(Melo, CP3, Parker) Take your pick.

MTar786
08-03-2013, 05:49 AM
firstly this is all obviously just my opinion. but lebron only took over kobe in the 09-10 season

and kobe is still the best shooting guard. infact i dont see how harden is even better than wade?? wade gets so disrespected its so unfair to the guy

MTar786
08-03-2013, 05:56 AM
i dont take stats into any of this for anyones argument.. to me kobe has been the best sg easily since 06-13 the years before that it may have been debatable between kobe and tmac. i personally would have taken kobe in 01 tmac in 02, a tie in 03. tmac in 04 and a tie again in 05. i think kobe is and was undisputedly the best since then. with wade coming up very close many seasons. but i do see how you can argue wade in seasons 08-11. i dot undestand any other argument on wades case besides those years

RiceOnTheRun
08-03-2013, 05:57 AM
firstly this is all obviously just my opinion. but lebron only took over kobe in the 09-10 season

and kobe is still the best shooting guard. infact i dont see how harden is even better than wade?? wade gets so disrespected its so unfair to the guy

I believe Wade can still play at an elite level. But for an entire season? Highly doubtful. At least, if the Heat want to threepeat at least. At this point, he just needs to maintain decent stats throughout the season, drop those 3-4 monster games in the playoffs and that's their recipe.

Kobe and Wade are great shooting guards and as of now, Harden hasn't even begun to scratch their level when they were healthy and in their primes. However, in the 2013-14 season, Harden will outplay both Kobe and Wade.

MTar786
08-03-2013, 08:23 AM
I believe Wade can still play at an elite level. But for an entire season? Highly doubtful. At least, if the Heat want to threepeat at least. At this point, he just needs to maintain decent stats throughout the season, drop those 3-4 monster games in the playoffs and that's their recipe.

Kobe and Wade are great shooting guards and as of now, Harden hasn't even begun to scratch their level when they were healthy and in their primes. However, in the 2013-14 season, Harden will outplay both Kobe and Wade.


i respect your opinion but can u tell me why you think that? i mean kobe played better than him last season. wade had an injury ridden year and plays as the second option where as harden plays as the first. yet their number are very close still. is ur opinion based on wades decline and kobes injury?

beliges
08-03-2013, 11:25 AM
harden and wade? lol at what point were either of these players other than wade in 2006 finals better than kobe, i dont thing being better for one series makes you the best these two never were and never will be in the sam breath as Kobe and Kobe is still better than both of them...

No offense but I'm not sure your opinion is even close to being routed in reality with your screen name. Kobe fans seem to think more PPG automatically makes someone a better player.

No offense but neither harden or Wade have been better than Kobe. Wade at this point will never be and harden now in his prime has a slight chance to top.an.18 yr veteran Kobe, but I doubt it.

Heatcheck
08-03-2013, 12:19 PM
No offense but neither harden or Wade have been better than Kobe. Wade at this point will never be and harden now in his prime has a slight chance to top.an.18 yr veteran Kobe, but I doubt it.

I feel wades been better for a few years. until this last year when Kobe had a monster year and outperformed wade, wade had better numbers accross the board except 3pt%, and even still, wade avg 20 ppg on 50%, leading one to believe he can still put up those ridiculous scoring totals, he just didnt take as many shots. but they are both very similar in terms of production, Kobe had the good fortune of playing with Shaq in his prime, and then 3 elite 7 fters while he was in HIS prime, more power to him. i prefer Dwayne wade. still you can really go wrong with either on, skills and production wise, team chemistry is a different story.

Slug3
08-03-2013, 12:29 PM
So people really think Kobe was better in 08?

JusDBasics
08-03-2013, 12:32 PM
Kobe is still the best SG in the league. Depending on how he comes back from the injury, Harden might have a chance to surpass him this season.

And Lebron only surpassed Kobe in the 09-10 season.

beliges
08-03-2013, 01:35 PM
No offense but neither harden or Wade have been better than Kobe. Wade at this point will never be and harden now in his prime has a slight chance to top.an.18 yr veteran Kobe, but I doubt it.

I feel wades been better for a few years. until this last year when Kobe had a monster year and outperformed wade, wade had better numbers accross the board except 3pt%, and even still, wade avg 20 ppg on 50%, leading one to believe he can still put up those ridiculous scoring totals, he just didnt take as many shots. but they are both very similar in terms of production, Kobe had the good fortune of playing with Shaq in his prime, and then 3 elite 7 fters while he was in HIS prime, more power to him. i prefer Dwayne wade. still you can really go wrong with either on, skills and production wise, team chemistry is a different story.

We can agree to disagree but I don't think Wade was ever on kobes level. Kobe is just a completely different animal. I always found this comparison centered moreso on emotion than reality. I think its unfair for Wade to have to live up to Kobe. But that's just this one man's opinion.

PurpleLynch
08-03-2013, 01:48 PM
I dunno if Kobe will be the best Sg in the league next year,but damn if he was the best sg last year and years early. A true basketball fan has to recognize this,and Wade is not a fair comparison IMO. Kobe he's just better,I can't see Wade doing what Kobe did for all these years. We'll see if Harden is better,but until that moment,Kobe is the best at Sg,hands down.

CELTICS4LYFE
08-03-2013, 01:51 PM
kobe is still the best where have u been

This.

Bruno
08-03-2013, 01:54 PM
This isn't 2006. This thread is 7 years late.

thats interesting, I seem to remember Kobe winning MVP in 2008 while Wades Heat went 15-67; he put up a WS/48 of .082 over 51 games. This was the year after the defending champion heat got swept out of the first round by Chicago.

the number of times that Wade has made the NBA first team in place of Bryant since 2003? Zero. Although Wade was good enough to join Bryant on the first team twice in his career.

RLundi
08-03-2013, 03:02 PM
thats interesting, I seem to remember Kobe winning MVP in 2008 while Wades Heat went 15-67; he put up a WS/48 of .082 over 51 games. This was the year after the defending champion heat got swept out of the first round by Chicago.

the number of times that Wade has made the NBA first team in place of Bryant since 2003? Zero. Although Wade was good enough to join Bryant on the first team twice in his career.

All-NBA has as much to do with team success as it does individual. It's clear the Lakers teams over the years have been much better than the Heat teams.

Wade was a better player than Kobe in 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 and honestly, it wasn't even that close. His WS/48 trumps Kobe's pretty demonstrably. Yet Kobe was All-NBA first team, and I don't know if he should have been. The Lakers averaged nearly 54 wins during that span. The Heat? 50 wins, including 2 seasons with the big 3. With just Wade, they averaged 42 wins in those years. Even though Wade had better numbers and a greater impact, he suffered from having a mediocre team and I surmise that had much to do with Kobe's first-team selections.

RaiderLakersA's
08-03-2013, 03:22 PM
Last year Kobe was the best sg and a top 5 player. To say harden is better now is basically speculation until the season starts and we can make that assessment.

My thoughts exactly. The season hasn't even started and people are making ridiculous claims already. The only thing that we know about next season is that the Heat are the reigning NBA champions. Everything else is conjecture or personal opinions masquerading as scientific fact.

Trueblue2
08-03-2013, 03:25 PM
03-04 - Kobe
04-05 - Wade (because he was better in the playoffs)
05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Kobe (both had good regular seasons, but Kobe was better in the playoffs)
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Kobe (Wade was better in the regular season, but Kobe was better in the playoffs)
09-10 - Wade
10-11 - Wade
11-12 - Wade
12-13 - Kobe


Pretty much this.

carlthack
08-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Lebron
KD
(Melo, CP3, Parker) Take your pick.

Melo doesnt play defense and didnt make the All-NBA 1st team, neither did Tony Parker. CP3 is the closest to getting into the top 3 but most of us would take Kobe over him any day of the week.

flea
08-03-2013, 03:37 PM
It'll be interesting to see. If Kobe played defense anymore he'd probably still be better than Harden next season (since Harden is pretty bad). But he doesn't, so I'll bank on Harden being the best.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 05:28 PM
Since 2006

Years Kobe has been better, by stat...

Per minute/48:

PER: 2008
WS48: 2008
WP48: 2008
SRS: 2008
RAPM: 2008

So, all of the advanced stats agree: since 2006, while on the court, Wade has been better than Kobe every year except 2008, when he was injured and Kobe had the best per-minute season of his career.

However, Wade has been injured a lot, and Kobe's biggest asset is his health and playing time. So...

Years Kobe has been better, by stat...

Cumulative:

Estimated Wins Added**: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2013
Win Shares: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2013
Wins Produced: 2007, 2008
RAPM: 2007, 2008

**Estimated Wins Added is the cumulative version of PER.

So, all he advanced stats agree: Kobe was better in 2007 and 2008, while Wade was better 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, with 2006 and 2013 being a tie, as each player won 2 stats each year, and by very slim margins. EWA and WS liked Kobe those 2 years, while WP and RAPM liked Wade those 2 years. 2013 was very close all around, and is a virtual tie by all accounts. 2006 was less close as WS had a virual tie, while RAPM and WP had Wade crushing Kobe, and EWA had Kobe crushing Wade. EWA/PER is the weakest of he stats, so that should be considered.

tbgpP

So...

2006: tie
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Wade
2010: Wade
2011: Wade
2012: Wade
2013: tie

Over the entire period, who has been the better player?

Since 2006, cumulative total.

Estimated Wins Added**: Wade: 157.8 Kobe: 131.3

Win Shares: Wade: 86.4 Kobe: 74.3

Wins Produced: Wade: 97.8 Kobe: 74.7

RAPM: Wade: 82.3 Kobe: 70.0

For those interested, I used cumulative value added in RAPM and divided it by 30 to get a win total, just to get a cleaner number. Why 30? Hollinger uses 30 to convert points to wins, so it was a simple selection.

You can see the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoFUoQxvUi5WdGdHdXNIaGZ2cC10MmJ5RkRPZ052V 3c&usp=sharing

So, who has been the better player since 2006?

Simple answer: Dwyane Wade
More accurate answer: Kobe from 2006 hru 2008, and Wade since 2009.

sammyvine
08-03-2013, 05:52 PM
its just proves how good he is really

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 05:55 PM
And, for 2013, let's look a the 3 candidaes:

Estimated Wins Added (PER):

Harden: 18.6 (23.0)
Wade: 16.1 (24.0)
Kobe: 18.9 (23.1)

Win Shares (WS48):

Harden: 12.8 (.206)
Wade: 9.6 (.192)
Kobe: 10.9 (.174)

Wins Produced (WP48):

Harden: 13.5 (.217)
Wade: 11.1 (.223)
Kobe: 9.6 (.152)

RAPM:

Harden: 10.3 (+5.1)
Wade: 6.9 (+4.5)
Kobe: 6.2 (+3.2)

So, unless you follow Hollinger's poor PER, he following is rue:

Harden and Wade were better than Kobe while on he floor.
Harden was had he most cumulative value.
Kobe and Wade had equal cumulative value.

So, the 2013 ranking for sg is....

Harden
Wade
Kobe

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 06:21 PM
Another cool thing on which all of the advanced stats agree:

Kobe has never been as good, over a 2year stretch, as Wade was from 2009 to 2010.

Wade 09/10 vs Koe 07/08

Estimated Wins Added (PER):

Wade: 54.3 (29.2)
Kobe: 46.0 (25.1)

Win Shares (WS48):

Wade: 27.7 (.228)
Kobe: 26.9 (.204)

Wins Produced (WP48):

Wade: 33.1 (.272)
Kobe: 25.8 (.193)

RAPM:

Wade: 33.0 (+8.9)
Kobe: 26.5 (+6.2)

DanG
08-03-2013, 06:31 PM
Right now as a #1 option leading a team in the playoffs I'd take Kobe over Wade.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 06:37 PM
kobe lost that to wade years ago...
HA

No offense but neither harden or Wade have been better than Kobe. Wade at this point will never be and harden now in his prime has a slight chance to top.an.18 yr veteran Kobe, but I doubt it.
This

So people really think Kobe was better in 08?
Everyone except heat homers

Kobe is still the best SG in the league. Depending on how he comes back from the injury, Harden might have a chance to surpass him this season.

And Lebron only surpassed Kobe in the 09-10 season.
This again

thats interesting, I seem to remember Kobe winning MVP in 2008 while Wades Heat went 15-67; he put up a WS/48 of .082 over 51 games. This was the year after the defending champion heat got swept out of the first round by Chicago.

the number of times that Wade has made the NBA first team in place of Bryant since 2003? Zero. Although Wade was good enough to join Bryant on the first team twice in his career.
:clap:

All-NBA has as much to do with team success as it does individual. It's clear the Lakers teams over the years have been much better than the Heat teams.

Wade was a better player than Kobe in 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 and honestly, it wasn't even that close. His WS/48 trumps Kobe's pretty demonstrably. Yet Kobe was All-NBA first team, and I don't know if he should have been. The Lakers averaged nearly 54 wins during that span. The Heat? 50 wins, including 2 seasons with the big 3. With just Wade, they averaged 42 wins in those years. Even though Wade had better numbers and a greater impact, he suffered from having a mediocre team and I surmise that had much to do with Kobe's first-team selections.
:yawn:

Right now as a #1 option leading a team in the playoffs I'd take Kobe over Wade.

Yup.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 06:39 PM
Right now as a #1 option leading a team in the playoffs I'd take Kobe over Wade.

based on what?

el hidalgo
08-03-2013, 06:40 PM
he gave that up back when he gave up defense

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 06:41 PM
So people really think Kobe was better in 08?

Yes. Much, much, much better.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 06:42 PM
he gave that up back when he gave up defense

You came out of retirement from the hall of shame to start posting again huh?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 06:44 PM
based on what?

Based off reality? Kobe put the Lakers on his back and stormed towards the plays offs, while Wade hopped on his boy friends back to another ring. Anything else?

RLundi
08-03-2013, 06:51 PM
HA

This

Everyone except heat homers

This again

:clap:

:yawn:


Yup.

It doesn't surprise me that this is the extent of an intelligent response from you.

ArmLaker
08-03-2013, 06:55 PM
Individually Kobe has been the best player until '10.

Lebron has that title now and has had it for the past 3 seasons no doubt.

Outside of 2011(which is still arguable) wade hasn't even come close.

I don't believe there was a stretch in wades career where he was rated above Kobe let alone being the best in the league.

Especially now with wades health, I don't think that's even a question anymore. Harden is fast catching up to him and you could make a case for him above wade even now

DanG
08-03-2013, 07:06 PM
2006: tie
2007: Kobe
2008: Kobe
2009: Wade
2010: Wade
2011: Wade
2012: Wade
2013: tie


IMO it wasn't a tie in 2006. It was Wade. They were pretty equal in the regular season, but Wade was clearly better in the playoffs.

in 2009 it was very close, but I have Kobe there. He was still a top 4 player in the regular season behind LeBron, CP3, Wade and in the playoffs he was playing like the best player in the game.

and in 2013 like I said before I would rather have Kobe right now leading my team in the playoffs as a #1 option because Wade was just awful in the postseason last season. + Kobe is much more consistent than Wade. I really don't think Wade would have bringed it like Kobe did when it was needed the most last year for the Lakers.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 07:15 PM
It doesn't surprise me that this is the extent of an intelligent response from you.

Your bait thread failed, get over it.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 07:17 PM
Why is everyone talking about Wade's health? Why is no one talking about Kobe's health? Everyone does realize that it was Kobe, not Wade, who has had 2 major, surgery requiring injuries the last 3 seasons, not Wade, right? Everyone does realize that, despite being injured and hobbled in the playoffs last year, Wade was far more productive than injured Kobe, who sat on the sidelines in a suit. Everyone does know that bone bruises are far easier to recover from, and have no chronic affects, compared to an Achilles rupture, which has serious chronic effects? Everyone does realize that, the last time each of these two layers had an offseason injury surgery, i was Kobe who came back and had the worst season of his career, not Wade, right?

Is the whole "health" thing just an ongoing inside joke which I am not a part of?

there is seriously zero medical, historical, or empirical data which suggests Wade's health is any worse off than Kobe's. In fact, ALL of the evidence suggests that it is Kobe's health which is in worse shape moving forward.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 07:22 PM
IMO it wasn't a tie in 2006. It was Wade. They were pretty equal in the regular season, but Wade was clearly better in the playoffs.

in 2009 it was very close, but I have Kobe there. He was still a top 4 player in the regular season behind LeBron, CP3, Wade and in the playoffs he was playing like the best player in the game.

and in 2013 like I said before I would rather have Kobe right now leading my team in the playoffs as a #1 option because Wade was just awful in the postseason last season. + Kobe is much more consistent than Wade. I really don't think Wade would have bringed it like Kobe did when it was needed the most last year for the Lakers.

Wade was equally as good as Kobe last year, and how can you use the playoffs against Wade? He was hurt, and not very productive, but he was better than Kobe who didn't play. You cannot use the playoffs in 2013 as a negative against Wade, without using them against Kobe.

Lastly, no, Wade has actually been more consistent according to every stat. there is no way to argue Wade has been less consistent.

lukass
08-03-2013, 07:37 PM
**** Kobe! Give me Matt Bonner

DanG
08-03-2013, 07:39 PM
Wade was equally as good as Kobe last year, and how can you use the playoffs against Wade? He was hurt, and not very productive, but he was better than Kobe who didn't play. You cannot use the playoffs in 2013 as a negative against Wade, without using them against Kobe.

Lastly, no, Wade has actually been more consistent according to every stat. there is no way to argue Wade has been less consistent.

After the 18-25 start every game was like a playoff game for the Lakers and Kobe delivered almost every game. I don't think Wade could have done that after seeing him play.


Consistency

Wade had a game score of 20 or greater in 24 of his 69 (34.7%) games last season.

Kobe had a game score of 20 or greater in 39 of his 78 (50%) games last season.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 07:42 PM
After the 18-25 start every game was like a playoff game for the Lakers and Kobe delivered almost every game. I don't think Wade could have done that after seeing him play.


Consistency

Wade had a game score of 20 or greater in 24 of his 69 (34.7%) games last season.

Kobe had a game score of 20 or greater in 39 of his 78 (50%) games last season.

year to year, Wade is more constisent.

And why don't you think Wade could have? Wade was excellent before the injury.

And, lastly... game score?? You mean he simplified 1game measure of pER? per has so many issues.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Wade was equally as good as Kobe last year, and how can you use the playoffs against Wade? He was hurt, and not very productive, but he was better than Kobe who didn't play. You cannot use the playoffs in 2013 as a negative against Wade, without using them against Kobe.

Lastly, no, Wade has actually been more consistent according to every stat. there is no way to argue Wade has been less consistent.

What plant do you live on? Kobe out classed Wade in almost every way possible last year. He also had 4 game winners. Kobe didn't have Lebron to hide behind. Wade sucked monkey balls in the play offs. How can he be better than Kobe if Kobe didn't get a shot. Kobe's stats would have shat on Wades if he had played. Get over your Wade obsession.

DanG
08-03-2013, 08:14 PM
year to year, Wade is more constisent.

And why don't you think Wade could have? Wade was excellent before the injury.

And, lastly... game score?? You mean he simplified 1game measure of pER? per has so many issues.

Before the injury blah blah. Yes Wade played injured, but that is in no way helpful to him since if he's injured and can't play up to the level that is expected of him that can't be used as an excuse as to why he's better than Kobe.

by game score I mean 20 or more points.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 09:18 PM
Before the injury blah blah. Yes Wade played injured, but that is in no way helpful to him since if he's injured and can't play up to the level that is expected of him that can't be used as an excuse as to why he's better than Kobe.

by game score I mean 20 or more points.

(1) individual player points dot no correlate to wins and are not a measure of consistency. Scoring 19 on .600 shooting is far more valuale than scoring 23 on .480 shooting.

(2) Yes, an injured Wade is more valuable than a nonexistent Kobe. If Wade is punished for sucking, Kobe has to be punished more for sucking more. 0 minutes played and 0 production is worse than what Wade produced.

You are penalizing Wade for playing, but not penalizing Kobe for not playing. that is ridiculous.

Chronz
08-03-2013, 09:37 PM
Wade was equally as good as Kobe last year, and how can you use the playoffs against Wade? He was hurt, and not very productive, but he was better than Kobe who didn't play. You cannot use the playoffs in 2013 as a negative against Wade, without using them against Kobe.

Lastly, no, Wade has actually been more consistent according to every stat. there is no way to argue Wade has been less consistent.

What plant do you live on? Kobe out classed Wade in almost every way possible last year. He also had 4 game winners. Kobe didn't have Lebron to hide behind. Wade sucked monkey balls in the play offs. How can he be better than Kobe if Kobe didn't get a shot. Kobe's stats would have shat on Wades if he had played. Get over your Wade obsession.
-1

Quinnsanity
08-03-2013, 10:17 PM
Wade '08-'09: 30.2 PPG, 7.5 APG, 5 RPG, 2.2 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 49.1 FG%, 30.4 PER, 14.7 WS, 4.4 DWS

Kobe '08-'09: 26.8 PPG, 4.9 APG, 5.2 RPG, 1.5 SPG, .5 BPG, 46.7 FG%, 24.4 PER, 12.7 WS, 4 DWS

THAT'S When Kobe lost the title to Wade. He took it back this year, but now it's Harden's going forward.

WadeKobe
08-03-2013, 10:22 PM
Why is everyone talking about Wade's health? Why is no one talking about Kobe's health? Everyone does realize that it was Kobe, not Wade, who has had 2 major, surgery requiring injuries the last 3 seasons, not Wade, right? Everyone does realize that, despite being injured and hobbled in the playoffs last year, Wade was far more productive than injured Kobe, who sat on the sidelines in a suit. Everyone does know that bone bruises are far easier to recover from, and have no chronic affects, compared to an Achilles rupture, which has serious chronic effects? Everyone does realize that, the last time each of these two layers had an offseason injury surgery, i was Kobe who came back and had the worst season of his career, not Wade, right?

Is the whole "health" thing just an ongoing inside joke which I am not a part of?

there is seriously zero medical, historical, or empirical data which suggests Wade's health is any worse off than Kobe's. In fact, ALL of the evidence suggests that it is Kobe's health which is in worse shape moving forward.

Seriously. Would anyone like to address this?

lukass
08-03-2013, 10:27 PM
kobe is trash, if MJ had Shaq when he came into the L he'd have 10 rings

RiceOnTheRun
08-03-2013, 10:33 PM
i respect your opinion but can u tell me why you think that? i mean kobe played better than him last season. wade had an injury ridden year and plays as the second option where as harden plays as the first. yet their number are very close still. is ur opinion based on wades decline and kobes injury?

Pretty much, yeah. I'll be honest, Kobe surprised me last year, and did far better than I thought he would. If he was healthy, I think he'd still be competing with Harden for the best SG in 13-14. But as good as he is, time waits for nobody, and he's had almost 2 decades worth of games (not to mention deep playoff runs) under his belt and coming back from an injury won't be easy. Kobe played better last season, I agree with that, but it's not like he completely outclassed Harden either. I think a guy like Harden who's still learning to be a leader and can still grow his skills will be even better next year and he'll be able to take the torch from Kobe/Wade.

As for Wade, I think he's still an elite talent and can put up when he needs to, but like Kobe, he's aging as well. He's a bit more reliant on athletic ability than Kobe is, so his age definitely takes a bit more of a toll on him. I don't think he can handle the stress of going 110% for an 82 game season anymore. He needs to save his energy for the playoffs, where the Heat really need him. Besides, he has Lebron and Bosh to beat 95% of teams for him and he won't have to consistently drop 30/7/5 like he has in the past. What he's really there for is for those 5% of super-elite teams where those two just wouldn't be enough.

kblo247
08-03-2013, 11:16 PM
Harden has to come take it. Based off his play post all star break, he wasnt good enough to do it. Kobe balled his *** off to the playoffs, Harden sunk his team down from a shot at 5th to 8th. Its one thing to say we are the next Kobe and Shaq, its a whole different world to actually step the **** up and do it. Are harden and Dwight about that life?

Wade is a wild card, but he's always been a glass man compared to Kobe. If he's healthy and watches his weight, he could be better than he was last year, in fact its hard to not be better than the guy crawling. He can have another bounce back year, like when he sucked in 08 and came back with vengeance in 09

Just because they are/were hurt, doesn't make Harden the guy. He hasn't earned it, short of attrition

Showtime Steve
08-03-2013, 11:37 PM
Yea harden is dope. Seen him at drew league this year and he scores effortlessly. Dude is a bully. Next year I think kobe will avg 23,6,6. Harden may get scoring title. He isn't passing to dwight, its his team. Dwight complains again.

RLundi
08-03-2013, 11:50 PM
Your bait thread failed, get over it.

Not a bait thread but I'm just pleasantly surprised you typed out something other than "this" or "+1," which seemed to be all you're capable of doing.

You should send mean, scathing letters to the writer of the article! I mean, how DARE he suggests that a player who's much younger, had better statistics a year ago and has a far better team will be the best shooting guard next year!

kblo247
08-03-2013, 11:54 PM
Another cool thing on which all of the advanced stats agree:

Kobe has never been as good, over a 2year stretch, as Wade was from 2009 to 2010.

Wade 09/10 vs Koe 07/08

Estimated Wins Added (PER):

Wade: 54.3 (29.2)
Kobe: 46.0 (25.1)

Win Shares (WS48):

Wade: 27.7 (.228)
Kobe: 26.9 (.204)

Wins Produced (WP48):

Wade: 33.1 (.272)
Kobe: 25.8 (.193)

RAPM:

Wade: 33.0 (+8.9)
Kobe: 26.5 (+6.2)

You really comparing wade in 09 and 10? You know that's bs right? You skipped wade coming off knee surgery by taking out 08 for him, and then you picked 07 for Kobe where he was coming off knee surgery.

Chronz
08-03-2013, 11:55 PM
Harden has to come take it. Based off his play post all star break, he wasnt good enough to do it. Kobe balled his *** off to the playoffs, Harden sunk his team down from a shot at 5th to 8th.
Elaborate por favor

JLynn943
08-04-2013, 12:14 AM
this is the first season in a couple of years that Kobe has a reasonable argument as best SG, and I still think he isn't. Wade, Kobe, and Harden are all around the same production (non-volume stats), but Wade actually plays defense. neither Kobe nor Harden do, but people ignore that aspect of the game.

kblo247
08-04-2013, 12:18 AM
There was no excuse for his team slipping down the standings how they did. He had a shot at 5 going into the break. He somehow ended up behind GS and LAL because Steph got hot and Kobe literally never sat. Know you hate the raw stat and like ts% but for the months of match and April where seeding was established among the warriors, lakers, and rockets, Harden shot 39% on roughly 17 fga.

The rockets lost games that they needed for their seeding:
5/17 vs Dallas, 6/16 vs GSW, 6/24 vs Indy, 3/9 vs Memphis, 7/19 vs Sacramento, 2/10 vs Denver, 7/24 vs Memphis, 5/18 vs PHX, and in the game that decided final seeding he went 8/25 vs the lakers.

The guy averaged 5 turnovers per game for the month of April. He shot 33% on 8 threes per game in the month of April. When Kobe and Steph got hot and started trotting with their teams behind them in March and April, Harden faltered.

Steph for April and March shot 46% from the field, 44% from three, turned it over less, and finished better than him. Kobe for those months shot 43.5%, averaged 37mpg in march and 45mpg in April, Kobe averaged more assists and rebounds, tuned it over less, averaged more fts, and his team contiuned to finish with the second best record in the league for the second half of the year.

Harden choked, no other way to describe the rockets falling to 8 when he was in front of them, him shooting horribly, his turnovers, and his no shows vs a number of teams who were playing for something after being dubbed an all star.

To me he hasn't earned the title of best SG, not based on play anyhow, just attrition and assumption that Kobe and Wade will let him take it after their injuries

Captain Moroni
08-04-2013, 12:33 AM
kobe has lost a step. The end is near. Great career HOF player.

Chronz
08-04-2013, 02:36 PM
There was no excuse for his team slipping down the standings how they did.
Getting rid of your PF core is pretty good reason for some recession, particularly when they were the floor spacers around Asik that provided balance to Lin's non shooting prowess. Rockets have a knack for punting seedings for the sake of long term progress. (See the jettison of Battier a few trade deadlines ago) and them booting their 2 main PF's this year. Thats like saying there is no excuse that the Lakers didn't HCA for the playoffs, even with their injuries they had 2 All-NBA performers, how many did the Rox have?

And Im with you on Kobe being the better player (for subjective reasons) but I dont see any world where Harden wasn't having the better FULL year or even 2nd half of the season. Kobe was definitely better in April tho. Shame Kobe couldnt/wouldnt pace himself, really wish the playoffs determined this instead of my belief that Kobe is a superior playoff performer (thus the better player)


He had a shot at 5 going into the break. He somehow ended up behind GS and LAL because Steph got hot and Kobe literally never sat. Know you hate the raw stat and like ts% but for the months of match and April where seeding was established among the warriors, lakers, and rockets, Harden shot 39% on roughly 17 fga.

Was he not more efficient than Kobe despite shooting 39%, so why would I care? And thats not how I saw it playing out, Dwight had just as much to do with the Lakers turnaround as Kobe did (his statistical growth in the 2nd half of the season surely trumps Kobes), whereas Harden saw his support dwindle. So knowing those facts, why would I expect the Rockets to keep up with a team thats playing a playoff rotation due to their fall earlier? Is it really a surprise that pringles ran those Lakers to the ground? (With Kobes permission of course). Shouldn't we have expected the Lakers to finish ahead of the newly constructed Rockets?

Seeds are established due to games played ALL YEAR. If you are prioritizing one stretch over another, you need more than blind glances at win-loss records because the circumstances may not be comparable. Its the same reason you look at opponents and home/away splits to start the year. Not every stretch of 20 games is comparably equal. A team that started 20-10 may be inferior to a team that started 12-18, depending on the efficiency and difficulty of the schedule. That said, I can buy Harden "choking" and Kobe "clutchin" as the main difference between the 2. I just cant take the leap that Kobe had the better overall year or even 2nd half of the season.



To me he hasn't earned the title of best SG, not based on play anyhow, just attrition and assumption that Kobe and Wade will let him take it after their injuries
Playing at a comparable level isn't earning it? That he was already there and those 2 are facing heavy obstacles just to recover makes him the most likely winner. Its not set in stone but its just about there, its an assumption based on strong logic.

Chronz
08-04-2013, 02:36 PM
this is the first season in a couple of years that Kobe has a reasonable argument as best SG, and I still think he isn't. Wade, Kobe, and Harden are all around the same production (non-volume stats), but Wade actually plays defense. neither Kobe nor Harden do, but people ignore that aspect of the game.

They were Threequals

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-04-2013, 03:06 PM
-1
This honestly gave me a good laugh thanks Mr Cooper.

Not a bait thread but I'm just pleasantly surprised you typed out something other than "this" or "+1," which seemed to be all you're capable of doing.

You should send mean, scathing letters to the writer of the article! I mean, how DARE he suggests that a player who's much younger, had better statistics a year ago and has a far better team will be the best shooting guard next year!

Harden had better stats than Kobe last year? Don't be a silly! Not to mention Kobe post all star brake was on fire. This same Kobe pushed the Lakers into the playoffs and pushed Hardens Rockets down to the 8th seed. Now that Kobe's foot feel off I can see Harden being the best SG in the league next year, but as for last year Kobe was easily the best SG in the game. I don't get why having the better team has anything to do with who's the better SG?

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 03:22 PM
This is quite funny that bean is so called passing the torch to HARDEN

what more can I say, one 6th man turned fulltime starter to another

passing the torch was never so worthy

I wonder since this happen that HARDEN will be mentioned in the top 10 players of all time 8yrs from now?

nevermind he doesn't play in lakerland

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 03:30 PM
There was no excuse for his team slipping down the standings how they did. He had a shot at 5 going into the break. He somehow ended up behind GS and LAL because Steph got hot and Kobe literally never sat. Know you hate the raw stat and like ts% but for the months of match and April where seeding was established among the warriors, lakers, and rockets, Harden shot 39% on roughly 17 fga.

The rockets lost games that they needed for their seeding:
5/17 vs Dallas, 6/16 vs GSW, 6/24 vs Indy, 3/9 vs Memphis, 7/19 vs Sacramento, 2/10 vs Denver, 7/24 vs Memphis, 5/18 vs PHX, and in the game that decided final seeding he went 8/25 vs the lakers.

The guy averaged 5 turnovers per game for the month of April. He shot 33% on 8 threes per game in the month of April. When Kobe and Steph got hot and started trotting with their teams behind them in March and April, Harden faltered.

Steph for April and March shot 46% from the field, 44% from three, turned it over less, and finished better than him. Kobe for those months shot 43.5%, averaged 37mpg in march and 45mpg in April, Kobe averaged more assists and rebounds, tuned it over less, averaged more fts, and his team contiuned to finish with the second best record in the league for the second half of the year.

Harden choked, no other way to describe the rockets falling to 8 when he was in front of them, him shooting horribly, his turnovers, and his no shows vs a number of teams who were playing for something after being dubbed an all star.

To me he hasn't earned the title of best SG, not based on play anyhow, just attrition and assumption that Kobe and Wade will let him take it after their injuries

First off its hard to carry a team solo, watching KG/BRON/AI for years proves that point

HARDEN was 3rd wheel with no1 capability in OKC and they reached FINALS and improved every year prior

HARDEN now has HOWARD to lean on heavy which will keep him fresh and energized and focused, hopefully

its the reason why I know how to rank the actual best players, the actual best can carry a team deep solo but with help will win pretty easily or get there in FINALS

stats have nothing to do with game, because gameplanning becomes a major factor, see KD without RUSS against GRIZZ, KD was nowhere near the 50-90-40 player that everybody on here screamed he was but he was still the same player with same game, or did he morph into different player?

that's how it works, individual game then impact on hardwood then gameplanning and team talent and probably most important owner/gm/coaching

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 03:36 PM
You're honestly one of the worst posters in all of sports forums.

Honest usually hurts

I mean the 'truth'

and stop calling me what others say over and over on here about you

I meant to say 'one' to another, thanks for the reminder

so bean and HARDEN aren't former 6th men turned full time starter?

I mean I could see if I was saying **** that never existed then i'd agree that I'm on of the worst posters

but damn how can the truth not set you free from your homer madness for this bean player?

imagine him having 2 scoring titles and 1 nba mvp in 17yrs in CHARLOTTE? and add on multiple no playoffs and 1st rd exits, would that be a top(best) 10 all time player? he swindled his way to a 50 plus win team on draft night, do I need to mention the tradition they had before he was even born?

if you don't understand media hype by now then you will be forever lost

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 03:45 PM
We are witnessing the birth of 2 former 6th men as top 10 all time players


wow

where amazing truly happens, the NBA

PSD keeps saying that bean has had this longevity and im thinking well of course he has been in the league since 96', and started full time in 00' the same year all his supporters say he has been the best

what happen the 3 years prior? and what did he do so much better after? that's all i'm trying to figure out since he has always been a JORDAN copycat, had he been drafted by CHA no way he would have been a all star, not even close that early in career

why is it so hard to understand he was backing up JONES? a good player right?

when does a super all nba player backup a good player? in any sport?

unless psd feel JONES is a top 10-20 player all time then it makes a lot of sense, but I feel majority or all of psd don't think that

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 03:58 PM
bean passing the torch to HARDEN is almost like pretty equal to like NASH passing the torch to DWILL or WESTBROOK

yeah sounds about right

WadeKobe
08-04-2013, 04:20 PM
Why is everyone talking about Wade's health? Why is no one talking about Kobe's health? Everyone does realize that it was Kobe, not Wade, who has had 2 major, surgery requiring injuries the last 3 seasons, not Wade, right? Everyone does realize that, despite being injured and hobbled in the playoffs last year, Wade was far more productive than injured Kobe, who sat on the sidelines in a suit. Everyone does know that bone bruises are far easier to recover from, and have no chronic affects, compared to an Achilles rupture, which has serious chronic effects? Everyone does realize that, the last time each of these two layers had an offseason injury surgery, i was Kobe who came back and had the worst season of his career, not Wade, right?

Is the whole "health" thing just an ongoing inside joke which I am not a part of?

there is seriously zero medical, historical, or empirical data which suggests Wade's health is any worse off than Kobe's. In fact, ALL of the evidence suggests that it is Kobe's health which is in worse shape moving forward.

No? No one is going to take this on?? I would love to hear some rationale.....

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-04-2013, 04:28 PM
No? No one is going to take this on?? I would love to hear some rationale.....

Wade didn't do a god damn thing but get into Lebron's kangaroo sac and ride to a ship. Kobe's stats would have shat all over Wade had he played. We are talking about the greatest warrior the League has ever seen, not someone who gets carted off the court for his shoulder. Kobe is months ahead of schedule because that how much he loves this game. Kobe want to be on the court at all times, can't say the same for Wade. Kobe will be back and prove you and everyone else wrong. The only thing that Wade has shown this year is that he'll never be a top nba player ever again.

flea
08-04-2013, 04:57 PM
Wow, can you tell what Kobe had for dinner last night from where you are, Illusionist?

ATX
08-04-2013, 05:06 PM
Wade didn't do a god damn thing but get into Lebron's kangaroo sac and ride to a ship. Kobe's stats would have shat all over Wade had he played. We are talking about the greatest warrior the League has ever seen, not someone who gets carted off the court for his shoulder. Kobe is months ahead of schedule because that how much he loves this game. Kobe want to be on the court at all times, can't say the same for Wade. Kobe will be back and prove you and everyone else wrong. The only thing that Wade has shown this year is that he'll never be a top nba player ever again.

I know you desperately wish this. We all do. So when is 21, 5, 5, and 2 steals on 52% FG% a bad season? He was 8th in PPG, and 7th in PER last season. How about that 23 and 10 game 7 on 52% FG% for the Championship? Or how about that 32, 6, 4 and 6 steal game 4 on 56% FG% to help keep SA from going up 3 games to 1? Wade was a big part of this Title, despite what ignorant comments you throw out there. Lest you not forget he was injured as well throughout the majority of the playoffs.

el hidalgo
08-04-2013, 05:13 PM
Wow, can you tell what Kobe had for dinner last night from where you are, Illusionist?

Who knows. Maybe he could have smelled it from under the table.

Bostonjorge
08-04-2013, 05:18 PM
What about that thread about lebron playing with the worst cast in playoff history. How is wade better then kobe when he was part of the worst cast in history. You take lebron off that team and wade leads that team to the lottery.

RLundi
08-04-2013, 05:25 PM
Who knows. Maybe he could have smelled it from under the table.

I lol'ed.

Chronz
08-04-2013, 06:04 PM
I lol'ed.

+1

Chronz
08-04-2013, 06:04 PM
What about that thread about lebron playing with the worst cast in playoff history. How is wade better then kobe when he was part of the worst cast in history. You take lebron off that team and wade leads that team to the lottery.
Who?

ATX
08-04-2013, 06:05 PM
Who knows. Maybe he could have smelled it from under the table.

I lol'd too


What about that thread about lebron playing with the worst cast in playoff history. How is wade better then kobe when he was part of the worst cast in history. You take lebron off that team and wade leads that team to the lottery.

Ridiculous statement

Wade/Bosh/Allen and company would not of won a title, but in the East that would still be a top 4 team.

Supreme LA
08-04-2013, 08:42 PM
I lol'd too



Ridiculous statement

Wade/Bosh/Allen and company would not of won a title, but in the East that would still be a top 4 team.


Now that is a ridiculous statement. Without Lebron, there is no way they would be better than the Knicks, Brooklyn, Indiana, or Chicago. And if they were in the West, they would barely even make the playoffs.

jerellh528
08-04-2013, 08:48 PM
Not yet IMO, he was the best last yr. to say he won't be the beat this year is pure speculation until we see the games played

amos1er
08-04-2013, 10:31 PM
Lets wait and see how next year pans out before we go jumping the gun here fellas.

ChiSox219
08-04-2013, 11:16 PM
There was no excuse for his team slipping down the standings how they did. He had a shot at 5 going into the break. He somehow ended up behind GS and LAL because Steph got hot and Kobe literally never sat. Know you hate the raw stat and like ts% but for the months of match and April where seeding was established among the warriors, lakers, and rockets, Harden shot 39% on roughly 17 fga.

The rockets lost games that they needed for their seeding:
5/17 vs Dallas, 6/16 vs GSW, 6/24 vs Indy, 3/9 vs Memphis, 7/19 vs Sacramento, 2/10 vs Denver, 7/24 vs Memphis, 5/18 vs PHX, and in the game that decided final seeding he went 8/25 vs the lakers.

The guy averaged 5 turnovers per game for the month of April. He shot 33% on 8 threes per game in the month of April. When Kobe and Steph got hot and started trotting with their teams behind them in March and April, Harden faltered.

Steph for April and March shot 46% from the field, 44% from three, turned it over less, and finished better than him. Kobe for those months shot 43.5%, averaged 37mpg in march and 45mpg in April, Kobe averaged more assists and rebounds, tuned it over less, averaged more fts, and his team contiuned to finish with the second best record in the league for the second half of the year.

Harden choked, no other way to describe the rockets falling to 8 when he was in front of them, him shooting horribly, his turnovers, and his no shows vs a number of teams who were playing for something after being dubbed an all star.

To me he hasn't earned the title of best SG, not based on play anyhow, just attrition and assumption that Kobe and Wade will let him take it after their injuries

Man the Rockets traded their starting PF and backup PF at the deadline in order to prepare for the offseason and Harden battled a knee injury, you are ignorant saying Harden chocked.

ATX
08-04-2013, 11:17 PM
Now that is a ridiculous statement. Without Lebron, there is no way they would be better than the Knicks, Brooklyn, Indiana, or Chicago. And if they were in the West, they would barely even make the playoffs.

No it's not because I said top 4, which should insinuate I believe them to be closer to 4th. I would have had Indy and the Knicks over the Heat as far as seeding. Chicago only won 45 games. Brooklyn won 49. So how is it ridiculous to speculate a Wade/Bosh led Heat team wouldn't win between 45 and 50 games? It's a completely fair assumption.

Hawkeye15
08-05-2013, 12:23 AM
Wade didn't do a god damn thing but get into Lebron's kangaroo sac and ride to a ship. Kobe's stats would have shat all over Wade had he played. We are talking about the greatest warrior the League has ever seen, not someone who gets carted off the court for his shoulder. Kobe is months ahead of schedule because that how much he loves this game. Kobe want to be on the court at all times, can't say the same for Wade. Kobe will be back and prove you and everyone else wrong. The only thing that Wade has shown this year is that he'll never be a top nba player ever again.

and you make claims against me? Wow

BRADfromOZ
08-05-2013, 01:01 AM
Yes, but only because of his injury.

JLynn943
08-05-2013, 01:04 AM
They were Threequals

Yeah, a good argument can be made for each of them. for me, I have Wade just edging them out because of defense, but it's certainly not by much.

RiceOnTheRun
08-05-2013, 01:09 AM
No? No one is going to take this on?? I would love to hear some rationale.....

I think they're both great players, but Wade plays off athleticism much more than Kobe. I'd say that's a fair statement, no?

Not to say Kobe isn't athletic, but Wade was "Flash" for a reason. Kobe was always more of a jumpshooter which translates better with age. Neither can jump as high or run as fast, but put them both in the same situation. You get the ball at the 3pt line, 10 seconds to go and down two, you're guarded by one guy but another defender is coming over quick. Kobe would most likely fake first and then take the shot because it's what he's always relied on. Wade would instead try to blow past the guy to the rim and either take the layup to tie or pass to the open guy on the wing. Of course both are pretty reliable choices, but the latter is more difficult to do when your knee is hurt.

So that's why I think Kobe at 33 is better than Wade will be at 33. Simply because he's more of a jumpshooter and less of a slasher. In their primes, you could honestly debate either way. As for 2013-14 onwards, if Kobe does return from his injury, I think his jumpshooting will be more reliable and effective than Wade's (unless he adjusts and pulls a Kidd).

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 01:40 AM
I think they're both great players, but Wade plays off athleticism much more than Kobe. I'd say that's a fair statement, no?

Not to say Kobe isn't athletic, but Wade was "Flash" for a reason. Kobe was always more of a jumpshooter which translates better with age. Neither can jump as high or run as fast, but put them both in the same situation. You get the ball at the 3pt line, 10 seconds to go and down two, you're guarded by one guy but another defender is coming over quick. Kobe would most likely fake first and then take the shot because it's what he's always relied on. Wade would instead try to blow past the guy to the rim and either take the layup to tie or pass to the open guy on the wing. Of course both are pretty reliable choices, but the latter is more difficult to do when your knee is hurt.

So that's why I think Kobe at 33 is better than Wade will be at 33. Simply because he's more of a jumpshooter and less of a slasher. In their primes, you could honestly debate either way. As for 2013-14 onwards, if Kobe does return from his injury, I think his jumpshooting will be more reliable and effective than Wade's (unless he adjusts and pulls a Kidd).

I think this is very fair. However, I don't think it addresses the issue as it has been framed so far and, therefore, how I attempted to frame it. thus, I think your point here is fair, while I think the general narrative orders on the absurd.

You're focusing on the way age and general wear and tear will affect these two layers as the next few years move on. that is fair.

However, the overwhelming narrative in this thread is not that, but is...

Wade has een injured recently and really struggled in the playoffs with his injury, and so his health is a i issue moving forward. Once Kobe comes back, age will eventually et him, but health is not a concern.

Do you see how that (1) differs from what you've stated here and (2) flows against the actual evidence (as I suggested in my post)?

waveycrockett
08-05-2013, 01:43 AM
I think Wade Surpassed him a few years ago as far back as 2008-09 season and then Kobe took it back in 2011-2012 in large part to Wade's health starting to decline. Harden took over the reins last year and probably wont look back but Harden will never be on the level that Kobe and Wade were on.

effen5
08-05-2013, 01:48 AM
Kobe is a freak, I think he's got one more good year when he gets back.

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 01:54 AM
I think Wade Surpassed him a few years ago as far back as 2008-09 season and then Kobe took it back in 2011-2012 in large part to Wade's health starting to decline. Harden took over the reins last year and probably wont look back but Harden will never be on the level that Kobe and Wade were on.

Kobe had he worst season of his career in 2011-2012 . :pity:

Supreme LA
08-05-2013, 01:55 AM
I think Wade Surpassed him a few years ago as far back as 2008-09 season and then Kobe took it back in 2011-2012 in large part to Wade's health starting to decline. Harden took over the reins last year and probably wont look back but Harden will never be on the level that Kobe and Wade were on.

I don't understand how you can think that when Kobe led his team to 2 titles the following 2 seasons. I really don't understand what some of you guys value when comparing players but it is your opinion. It's something we'll never agree on so I guess that's all I care to say.

waveycrockett
08-05-2013, 02:01 AM
Kobe had he worst season of his career in 2011-2012 . :pity:

And Wade had his worst season since his rookie year that year also

waveycrockett
08-05-2013, 02:02 AM
I don't understand how you can think that when Kobe led his team to 2 titles the following 2 seasons. I really don't understand what some of you guys value when comparing players but it is your opinion. It's something we'll never agree on so I guess that's all I care to say.

It's pretty simple. Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Yes Kobe was STILL GREAT but The fact that Wade LED that trash team he had around him to the postseason year after year is as impressive as anything. While Kobe was playing with Gasol, Artest and Bynum Wade was playing with Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal.

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 02:14 AM
And Wade had his worst season since his rookie year that year also

Lol. How so? WS48, Wp48, pER, RApM, SRS...he was his usual self. Seriously, how so?

Wade was a top five player... Kobe was awful.

Supreme LA
08-05-2013, 02:18 AM
So PSD now says Wade is better than Kobe??

RiceOnTheRun
08-05-2013, 02:19 AM
I think this is very fair. However, I don't think it addresses the issue as it has been framed so far and, therefore, how I attempted to frame it. thus, I think your point here is fair, while I think the general narrative orders on the absurd.

You're focusing on the way age and general wear and tear will affect these two layers as the next few years move on. that is fair.

However, the overwhelming narrative in this thread is not that, but is...

Wade has een injured recently and really struggled in the playoffs with his injury, and so his health is a i issue moving forward. Once Kobe comes back, age will eventually et him, but health is not a concern.

Do you see how that (1) differs from what you've stated here and (2) flows against the actual evidence (as I suggested in my post)?

Ah, yeah I get your point. I completely misunderstood your first post. So what you're trying to say is that people should hold Kobe to the same standard we hold Wade to as far as the whole "injury prone" thing. Like, Kobe will be just as prone to injury as Wade will be when Kobe returns from his rehab.

Yes, I agree with you there, and I think it'll definitely be difficult for Kobe to come back. I guess the point I was trying to make was that if they both suffered the same injury, Kobe's 'game' would suffer less. That being said, I think SG is a very shallow position in the NBA. Past Harden, Wade and Kobe; there's a pretty big gap to #4. I don't know how Wade will play next season, but I'm fairly certain that Kobe won't be the top in the league ever again.

In my previous post, I tried to explain why I think Kobe's game translates better into the later 30's and I think it's because of those reason that people consider Wade more "injured" than Kobe. Because the Wade we're all accustomed to watching is, well, the Flash. I think he definitely had a more noticeable difference over the past year because he just hasn't really had to (or was possibly unable to) be Flash during the regular season.

I think a more equivalent thing, would be Kobe hurting his shoulder or elbow because that would impact his signature jumper. If Kobe's jumper suffered in a similar way, I think people would be saying the same thing about him. Kobe has lost a step yeah, but he was more of a shooter first and a slasher second anyways. Vice versa for Wade.

So for the future, Wade is considered "injury prone" because of the perception that he's "lost his magic". While Kobe's probably lost just as much, it doesn't impact him as much and it's easy to say "Hey look! He's still making his jumpers" and not consider him as injured.

Not sure if that really clears it up, but tl;dr - It's all about the perception of their past game vs their current.

Also, I guess I based my 'absurd narrative' off what I imagine they would do based off those situations haha. Nothing really serious there, just a hypothetical situation and whatnot.

waveycrockett
08-05-2013, 02:27 AM
Lol. How so? WS48, Wp48, pER, RApM, SRS...he was his usual self. Seriously, how so?

Wade was a top five player... Kobe was awful.
oh Wp48. How did I miss that

waveycrockett
08-05-2013, 02:27 AM
So PSD now says Wade is better than Kobe??

Well is Wade coming off a torn Knee?

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 02:32 AM
oh Wp48. How did I miss that

it is the stronest stat out there, and the other 3 apply. Do you wish to deal with that?

Chronz
08-05-2013, 03:25 AM
Yeah, a good argument can be made for each of them. for me, I have Wade just edging them out because of defense, but it's certainly not by much.
Just a matter of timing. If Wade is healthy, I take him above all. But given his struggles the last 2 post seasons, this with the Heat massaging his minutes already, has me putting him in third. Kobe is prolly done tho, so 2nd now. Harden however, seems to be the winner by attrition, as pointed out earlier. Hes the best bet to show up for 82 games and dominate come playoffs. Kobe and Wade cant claim that now.

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 03:38 AM
Just a matter of timing. If Wade is healthy, I take him above all. But given his struggles the last 2 post seasons, this with the Heat massaging his minutes already, has me putting him in third. Kobe is prolly done tho, so 2nd now. Harden however, seems to be the winner by attrition, as pointed out earlier. Hes the best bet to show up for 82 games and dominate come playoffs. Kobe and Wade cant claim that now.

+3

tredigs
08-05-2013, 03:48 AM
it is the stronest stat out there, and the other 3 apply. Do you wish to deal with that?

Why do you feel that way? According to Wins Produced, Reggie Evans, Shawn Marion, J. Kidd, Sefalosha, JJ Hickson, Calderon and Tyson Chandler were top 20 players in the NBA last season. Tyson top 5. Conversely, Melo, Hibbert, Lawson, Gallinari, Brook Lopez, Lemarcus Aldridge, Rondo, Bosh, Kyrie, Garnett, J. Smoove, etc didn't crack the top 50. Some of those outside top 100.

I've been trying to give it a chance, but so much of it does not seem defensible. Especially considering some of his wins projections.

kblo247
08-05-2013, 04:27 AM
Man the Rockets traded their starting PF and backup PF at the deadline in order to prepare for the offseason and Harden battled a knee injury, you are ignorant saying Harden chocked.

And Metta missed 7 games, Nash 9, and Pau 10 in the months of April and March. They were starters. Harden and the Rockets choked during that seeding free fall to eight because he didnt elevate his play. A loss of Patterson shouldn't be a drop from possibly fifth to the eighth seed, and it damn sure should not lead to him shooting 39% on 17 attempts the finals two months of the year, let alone his stats vs the contenders where he stunk. The difference was Kobe played like a mad man, killing himself to win games and without three key components all of whom can be argued to being more needed than Patterson or the Morris twin

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 06:15 AM
Why do you feel that way? According to Wins Produced, Reggie Evans, Shawn Marion, J. Kidd, Sefalosha, JJ Hickson, Calderon and Tyson Chandler were top 20 players in the NBA last season. Tyson top 5. Conversely, Melo, Hibbert, Lawson, Gallinari, Brook Lopez, Lemarcus Aldridge, Rondo, Bosh, Kyrie, Garnett, J. Smoove, etc didn't crack the top 50. Some of those outside top 100.

I've been trying to give it a chance, but so much of it does not seem defensible. Especially considering some of his wins projections.


When I am not drunk tomorrow, I will do a write up for you.

eso
08-05-2013, 06:40 AM
What?? Lebron is playing Shooting Guard?

Supreme LA
08-05-2013, 08:22 AM
Wade looked pretty washed up the entire postseason and all of a sudden he's better than Kobe. Wade will be done before Kobe is and you guys will see. I don't even have Wade in my top 3 after seeing how much Paul George has developed and how he basically owned Wade that entire series.

1. Kobe
2. Harden
3. George

crue2000
08-05-2013, 10:01 AM
Wade looked pretty washed up the entire postseason and all of a sudden he's better than Kobe. Wade will be done before Kobe is and you guys will see. I don't even have Wade in my top 3 after seeing how much Paul George has developed and how he basically owned Wade that entire series.

1. Kobe
2. Harden
3. George



out of all of the responses here, this takes the cake. Dumb

jerellh528
08-05-2013, 11:55 AM
I find it hilarious how basically every offseason since 08' people try to say wade is going to be better than Kobe or if wade is fully healthy this yr he will be the best. Lol, yet Kobe shuts them up every time. Face it, wade is third, maybe even fourth now. It's going to be a battle between harden and Kobe. And if it wasn't for his injury, I wouldn't even call it a battle, I would put Kobe #1 outright, which he should probably be since he was the best last yr as well.

Heatcheck
08-05-2013, 12:15 PM
I don't understand how you can think that when Kobe led his team to 2 titles the following 2 seasons. I really don't understand what some of you guys value when comparing players but it is your opinion. It's something we'll never agree on so I guess that's all I care to say.

I dont understand what part of TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT some people dont get, and why having 3 elite 7fters in a league devoid of big men is such an advantage. saying he "led his team to two titles" is deceptive and doenst make up for wade outperforming him individually

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 12:24 PM
Wade looked pretty washed up the entire postseason and all of a sudden he's better than Kobe. Wade will be done before Kobe is and you guys will see. I don't even have Wade in my top 3 after seeing how much Paul George has developed and how he basically owned Wade that entire series.

1. Kobe
2. Harden
3. George

lolol.

Amazin.

Kobe is injured and cannot even step on the court.... but he gets a pass.

Wade is injured and steps out on the cour... and he is punished for playing subpar.

this is the epitome of dumb.

Stinkyoutsider
08-05-2013, 01:47 PM
I would like to give Harden another year to see if he can be the best 2 in the league. See if he can continue his level of play, especially with Howard coming to the club...

As far as Kobe, it's always going to be tough to figure out where he has ranked as far as the best player/guard during his time? His stats are deciving because I think most of us fans look at his ability to dominate games when he's on. Consistency, as far as shooting/shot selection, has always been a determining factor to figuring out his game.

Kobe has always been clutch in the most important situations so he has that going for him.

HouRealCoach
08-05-2013, 01:53 PM
Wade looked pretty washed up the entire postseason and all of a sudden he's better than Kobe. Wade will be done before Kobe is and you guys will see. I don't even have Wade in my top 3 after seeing how much Paul George has developed and how he basically owned Wade that entire series.

1. Kobe
2. Harden
3. George

Paul George is a SF....

fresh prince
08-05-2013, 02:37 PM
Honestly this article lost credibilty with the following statement:


Last year was the culmination of everything wrong with Kobe Bryant.

That is one of the msot insane things ever printed. Kobe ws absolutely phenomenal last year. and virtually single handedly willed the Lakers into the post season in his 16th year in the league. What we saw was likely the greatest season a 34 year old wing player will ever have.

ChiSox219
08-05-2013, 02:58 PM
And Metta missed 7 games, Nash 9, and Pau 10 in the months of April and March. They were starters. Harden and the Rockets choked during that seeding free fall to eight because he didnt elevate his play. A loss of Patterson shouldn't be a drop from possibly fifth to the eighth seed, and it damn sure should not lead to him shooting 39% on 17 attempts the finals two months of the year, let alone his stats vs the contenders where he stunk. The difference was Kobe played like a mad man, killing himself to win games and without three key components all of whom can be argued to being more needed than Patterson or the Morris twin

Harden's TS% through that stretch was .55x which is just about Kobe's career average. His numbers were largely a byproduct of a knee injury that limited his explosion and off the dribble shooting, thats not choking you gotta get off Kobe's D it's making you irrational.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-05-2013, 03:41 PM
I find it hilarious how basically every offseason since 08' people try to say wade is going to be better than Kobe or if wade is fully healthy this yr he will be the best. Lol, yet Kobe shuts them up every time. Face it, wade is third, maybe even fourth now. It's going to be a battle between harden and Kobe. And if it wasn't for his injury, I wouldn't even call it a battle, I would put Kobe #1 outright, which he should probably be since he was the best last yr as well.


I would like to give Harden another year to see if he can be the best 2 in the league. See if he can continue his level of play, especially with Howard coming to the club...

As far as Kobe, it's always going to be tough to figure out where he has ranked as far as the best player/guard during his time? His stats are deciving because I think most of us fans look at his ability to dominate games when he's on. Consistency, as far as shooting/shot selection, has always been a determining factor to figuring out his game.

Kobe has always been clutch in the most important situations so he has that going for him.


Honestly this article lost credibilty with the following statement:



That is one of the msot insane things ever printed. Kobe ws absolutely phenomenal last year. and virtually single handedly willed the Lakers into the post season in his 16th year in the league. What we saw was likely the greatest season a 34 year old wing player will ever have.

These are the correct amswers.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 04:07 PM
When I am not drunk tomorrow, I will do a write up for you.

Alright sounds good.

Lakerhead4ever
08-05-2013, 04:29 PM
Guys are we serious? Wade and kobe comparison? Really? Wade is lucky lebron joined him and extended his career.

But anyways harden has a chance to be great. Wades number 3 sg rank is in jeopardy.

Chronz
08-05-2013, 04:33 PM
So PSD now says Wade is better than Kobe??

Now? Its been hotly debated for years

RLundi
08-05-2013, 05:04 PM
Guys are we serious? Wade and kobe comparison? Really? Wade is lucky lebron joined him and extended his career.

But anyways harden has a chance to be great. Wades number 3 sg rank is in jeopardy.

Who's challenging to enter the top 3 of SG in the league??

el hidalgo
08-05-2013, 05:04 PM
True, we need to penalize Wade for having LeBron on his team. He has the most dominant player in the league helping him out for gods sake.. Kobe never had the privilege of playing with the most domin...

wait a second....

amos1er
08-05-2013, 06:24 PM
This thread is pointless. Lets wait for the season to start before we start ranking players by position.

amos1er
08-05-2013, 06:28 PM
True, we need to penalize Wade for having LeBron on his team. He has the most dominant player in the league helping him out for gods sake.. Kobe never had the privilege of playing with the most domin...

wait a second....

Come on man. Wade is clearly a shell of his former self. It's not only like he had Lebron, he also has Bosh, and the best 3 point shooting sniper cast of all time. Also, he plays in the weakest conference of any top 20 player in NBA history. The teams him and Lebron beat to win their rings were the easiest rings of anyone in the top ten of all time. The only ring that Wade was the clear alpha male in was handed to him by the refs in one of the biggest disgraces of a finals in NBA history. 96 free throw attempts in 6 games set a finals record...even Jordan and Shaq did not come close to that.

hidalgo
08-05-2013, 06:43 PM
Honestly this article lost credibilty with the following statement:



That is one of the msot insane things ever printed. Kobe ws absolutely phenomenal last year. and virtually single handedly willed the Lakers into the post season in his 16th year in the league. What we saw was likely the greatest season a 34 year old wing player will ever have.sorry, Michael Jordan was 34 in his 1996-97 season, & that season blows Kobe's 34 year old season away. and he was 1st team all defensive, while Kobe played no defense whatsoever(that's not absolutely phenomenal at all.). Michael's 1998 season at age 35 kills Kobe's 2013 season too, & once again MJ was 1st team all defensive. MJ was scoring more, shootin a better%, turning the ball over way less, getting more steals, & blocks, & rebounds, much higher PER, & playing great defense. while winning mvp, & 2 finals mvps & still the best player in the nba at ages 34 & 35, with plenty of legendary moments in the playoffs & finals. now that's "absolutely phenomenal". your definition of that phrase sets the bar pretty low

STAT1
08-05-2013, 07:14 PM
Kobe fans and others: Kobe is still the best.
Rational fans: Harden can't be labeled the best after one year.
Kobe haters and people who live in Texas: Harden is the best SG in the league.
Heat fans: Dwayne Wade is!!
/thread

heyman321
08-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Come on man. Wade is clearly a shell of his former self. It's not only like he had Lebron, he also has Bosh, and the best 3 point shooting sniper cast of all time. Also, he plays in the weakest conference of any top 20 player in NBA history. The teams him and Lebron beat to win their rings were the easiest rings of anyone in the top ten of all time. The only ring that Wade was the clear alpha male in was handed to him by the refs in one of the biggest disgraces of a finals in NBA history. 96 free throw attempts in 6 games set a finals record...even Jordan and Shaq did not come close to that.

I don't like your Kobe homerism, but this is the truth. 06 Finals was a disgrace and Dirk should have 2 rings and 2 Finals MVPs.

RLundi
08-05-2013, 07:34 PM
This thread is pointless. Lets wait for the season to start before we start ranking players by position.

So you're saying its pointless to suggest LeBron might be the best SF in the league next year, all because the season hasn't started yet?

Is it also pointless to make prediction threads about standings?

Come on, you're just salty because the discussion is about Kobe possibly losing his supremacy.

RiceOnTheRun
08-05-2013, 07:44 PM
I dont understand what part of TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT some people dont get, and why having 3 elite 7fters in a league devoid of big men is such an advantage. saying he "led his team to two titles" is deceptive and doenst make up for wade outperforming him individually

:clap::clap::clap:

hidalgo
08-05-2013, 08:21 PM
Come on man. Wade is clearly a shell of his former self. It's not only like he had Lebron, he also has Bosh, and the best 3 point shooting sniper cast of all time. Also, he plays in the weakest conference of any top 20 player in NBA history. The teams him and Lebron beat to win their rings were the easiest rings of anyone in the top ten of all time. The only ring that Wade was the clear alpha male in was handed to him by the refs in one of the biggest disgraces of a finals in NBA history. 96 free throw attempts in 6 games set a finals record...even Jordan and Shaq did not come close to that.true, Jordan didn't even sniff that many FTAs in a finals(or in any playoff series he played), Shaq came close(93 FTA in the 2000 finals) but still didn't beat Wade's 97 FTAs. Jordan's most FTA in a finals is 70(a far from suspicious number), & he never came very close to that in his other finals, in fact I think the refs sorta low balled him in the finals to prove they weren't playing favorites to him. I like Wade & I don't think the refs rigged that 06 finals, but they sent him to the line too much, probably the ticky tack rules helped that happen, & how much he drove to the basket to take advantage of it

but I would take Wade at his best over Kobe at his best. while it's true I hate Kobe & wouldn't take him on my team ever for any reason, but I do think Wade at his best plays a better overall game, & his fg% is much better, better PER, etc. he's way underrated. Kobe hogs the ball & forces x number of points, even if he shoots a terrible %, no matter how it effects his team, he has to be mr cool guy & chuck away. Wade is a far better team player, & takes better shots, better defender imo. had he played with Shaq from 97-04, my goodness, 5 titles at least(MJ & Shaq get every title for sure), & had he played on the lakers in Kobe's place from 08-11, i'd say he'd have won 3 titles, not 2. Kobe just has been on the right team that almost always has a championship roster. makes him look better than he is. if Wade was on the Lakers from 99-now he'd be hyped up as big as Kobe is

amos1er
08-05-2013, 08:41 PM
So you're saying its pointless to suggest LeBron might be the best SF in the league next year, all because the season hasn't started yet?

Is it also pointless to make prediction threads about standings?

Come on, you're just salty because the discussion is about Kobe possibly losing his supremacy.

All I'm saying is that it's sheer speculation. Not really discussion worthy IMO. No clear way to win such a debate and the entire thread will be nothing more than pointless bickering and semantics.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 08:42 PM
true, Jordan didn't even sniff that many FTAs in a finals, Shaq came close(93 FTA in the 2000 finals) but still didn't beat Wade's 97 FTAs. Jordan's most FTA in a finals is 70(a far from suspicious number), & he never came very close to that in his other finals, in fact I think the refs sorta low balled him in the finals to prove they weren't playing favorites to him. I like Wade & I don't think the refs rigged that 06 finals, but they sent him to the line too much, probably the ticky tack rules helped that happen, & how much he drove to the basket to take advantage of it

True, but when MJ was getting to the finals he was down to around 6-7 FTA/G in the regular season. Wade was ULTRA ****ing aggressive at that time - 10.7 FTA/G during that season eclipses the most from Kobe, LBJ, Durant, and matches Jordan's max before he developed an elite mid-range. That's where Wade lived, so even if he maintained his regular season aggressiveness he'd have been projected to hit the line ~65 times. So of all players in history, it's not too surprising that '05/06 Wade has the record for most attempts in a finals.

amos1er
08-05-2013, 08:46 PM
Now? Its been hotly debated for years

Hardly. The only ones who tried to make arguments in favor of Wade over Kobe were limited to the most homeristic of fanboys this site has ever seen. The general consensus was that Wade was never really in the discussion except for a few random seasons where even then the vast majority would scoffed at such a notion.

el hidalgo
08-05-2013, 08:54 PM
as i said before, kobe gave up the title of best SG when he gave up playing defense. i dont understand how any player can completely and utterly just ignore defense and still be regarded as the best. he has been a liability on the defensive end since 2008. He just sacrificed it to keep his offensive numbers nice and flashy.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 08:54 PM
Hardly. The only ones who tried to make arguments in favor of Wade over Kobe were limited to the most homeristic of fanboys this site has ever seen. The general consensus was that Wade was never really in the discussion except for a few random seasons where even then the vast majority would scoffed at such a notion.

This makes me want to have someone set up a "basketball IQ" test and ask everyone who participated to rank their top 10 each of the past 10 years. Based on experience I have a feeling the higher the BBIQ, the better Wade would rank in relation to Kobe. This post is no exception. But we are talking about the player who still gets All NBA 1st Team Defense votes from NBA coaches in the year 2013, so I could be wrong to think that knowledge is more potent than media brainwashing.

Chronz
08-05-2013, 08:57 PM
Hardly. The only ones who tried to make arguments in favor of Wade over Kobe were limited to the most homeristic of fanboys this site has ever seen. The general consensus was that Wade was never really in the discussion except for a few random seasons where even then the vast majority would scoffed at such a notion.
Not from my experience, pretty sure most of the respected/long tenured members here agree in its been a hot debate over the years.

hidalgo
08-05-2013, 09:11 PM
as i said before, kobe gave up the title of best SG when he gave up playing defense. i dont understand how any player can completely and utterly just ignore defense and still be regarded as the best. he has been a liability on the defensive end since 2008. He just sacrificed it to keep his offensive numbers nice and flashy.instead of forcing up 27 ppg, he could have scored 22 ppg & made sure Dwight got 20-21 ppg, keeping him happy, then Dwight would still be around. when the scoring difference is 17 to 27, that's just stupid when you know Dwight can get 21 ppg(shooting about 60% to Kobe 45%). that's a big efff you to Dwight, & a big part of why he left as fast as he could. also Nash's assist went down from 10+, to like 6 because Kobe had to be the cool guy with the ball. I predicted both things would happen(that he wouldn't allow Dwight 20ppg, & wouldn't allow Nash even 8 apg), & boy was I right. it was one of the easiest predictions i ever made

amos1er
08-05-2013, 09:13 PM
True, but when MJ was getting to the finals he was down to around 6-7 FTA/G in the regular season. Wade was ULTRA ****ing aggressive at that time - 10.7 FTA/G during that season eclipses the most from Kobe, LBJ, Durant, and matches Jordan's max before he developed an elite mid-range. That's where Wade lived, so even if he maintained his regular season aggressiveness he'd have been projected to hit the line ~65 times. So of all players in history, it's not too surprising that '05/06 Wade has the record for most attempts in a finals.

Ya, and it was no coincidence that the league was in desperate need of a new superstar at the time and the dull Mavericks team would not have been nearly as financially beneficial. This is all speculation on my part of course, but it does make a lot of sense. Especially considering how close the games were. The four games Miami won were all decided by 3 points or less. That is huge considering the disparity in free throws Wade got compared to the other players on the Mavs... especially Dirk. In game 5 Wade got to the line 25 TIMES!!! That was exactly equal to the number of times the entire Mavs team got to the line. Pretty sure thats never happened before in NBA finals history... You know, a player getting to the line as many times as an entire opposing team. Except for game 2 of the 2008 NBA finals where Powe got to the line more than the entire Lakers team and we all know what a bs game that was. The Mavs had advantages in nearly all statistical categories including shots made, FG%, turnovers, rebounds, points in paint, and points off turnovers in those final four games Miami won. The only clear advantage Miami had was freethrow attempts...and it was by an unnaturally large gap. Go look up the numbers and see for yourself. Something just didn't seem right about that series. Especially the way Wade got those game winning free throws in game five when he didn't even get fouled. Funny how the refs never blow the whistle for anyone else in late game situations including Manu this year when he was clearly fouled in game 6...Of course Wade gets the call when he wasn't even touched.

http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

http://www.82games.com/fouldraw.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6rl4-7YtXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJYlMdFGsw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aySGUzzxjGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFA5vSjvzGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC9H66odmrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAZeuO2qEqE

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rigged/page/12

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9180912AAkwnDO

el hidalgo
08-05-2013, 09:14 PM
instead of forcing up 27 ppg, he could have scored 22 ppg & made sure Dwight got 20-21 ppg, then Dwight would still be around. when the scoring difference is 17 to 27, that's just stupid when you know Dwight can get 21 ppg. that's a big efff you to Dwight, & a big part of why he left as fast as he could. also Nash's assist went down from 10+, to like 6 because Kobe had to be the cool guy with the ball. I predcted both thing would happen, & boy was it one of the easiest prediction ever
exactly. he could have deferred to nash and dwight a bit more and used more of his energy on defense. he is all about glory and legacy though. there is a lot more glory in playing offense. he must just think "to hell with defense." aall about legacy and self image for kobe.

amos1er
08-05-2013, 09:19 PM
This makes me want to have someone set up a "basketball IQ" test and ask everyone who participated to rank their top 10 each of the past 10 years. Based on experience I have a feeling the higher the BBIQ, the better Wade would rank in relation to Kobe. This post is no exception. But we are talking about the player who still gets All NBA 1st Team Defense votes from NBA coaches in the year 2013, so I could be wrong to think that knowledge is more potent than media brainwashing.

You don't think Kobe was top five in 2013? He had one of his best seasons. lol

You should set up your little test. Would love to see the result.

Most credible experts, coaches, and owners around the league felt Kobe was the best from 2006-2010. From then on, it's been Lebron. At no point was Wade considered the best, or better than Kobe by the vast majority of credible experts. Sure there have been some random opinions of credible people over the years that might disagree, but they are in the minority to the vastly many more who agree. Even in a blow out election, there are still some people who vote for the losing candidate and of that minority, there are some smart people, but the majority always rules. Unless of course you can find a way to correlate BBIQ to votes that is. Until then we will just have to go with what is in front of our faces.

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 09:19 PM
I've been trying to give it a chance, but so much of it does not seem defensible. Especially considering some of his wins projections.

Let me start by addressing this and I will do so shortly in a few points:

(1) A stat's ability to predict should not be considered a negative in terms of its ability to explain. Those are different functions.

(2) The win projections computed by Arturo are ultimately subject to his minute allocation, which is where I find my biggest beef. So, just to clarify, I did not offer up the predictions to suggest they will necessarily be accurate (although, the 20-game range on many teams looks very good to me). It was to show that the Rockets have a much more talented roster than the Warriors and, even if the gap is nowhere near as wide as Arturo's model suggests, the Rockets will likely be better than the Warriors.

(3) Any more conversation about Arturo's use of the WP48 statistic in doing predictions for the upcoming season should wait until the offseason is completed and he actually runs his model simulation which.... last year... picked the San Antonio Spurs to beat the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with Miami in 7 as the second most likely outcome. I haven't seen any model, the WoW model included, which is able to accurately project and predict every team, not even within a 10-game spread. So, that should be noted when discussing predictions/projections.

That's all for now on that. Now, to the fun stuff...


Why do you feel that way? According to Wins Produced, Reggie Evans, Shawn Marion, J. Kidd, Sefalosha, JJ Hickson, Calderon and Tyson Chandler were top 20 players in the NBA last season. Tyson top 5. Conversely, Melo, Hibbert, Lawson, Gallinari, Brook Lopez, Lemarcus Aldridge, Rondo, Bosh, Kyrie, Garnett, J. Smoove, etc didn't crack the top 50. Some of those outside top 100.

Ultimately, you're coming in through the back door. The reality is that the value of a metric isn't and shouldn't be based on our prior assumptions. Now, part of this is me being a baseball guy... let me clarify.

Small sample sizes matter. Players can have good years or bad years. I don't know if you follow baseball, but from 2009-2011, Ben Zobrist was a top3 player in baseball according to WAR. A lot of people thought that was crazy, myself included. However, instead of judging WAR based upon its conclusion and how well that conclusion fit with my prior beliefs, I studied the statistic to figure out (1) how it values events and comes to its conclusions and (2) therefore, if this conclusion was really crazy or if it was me who needed to change.

Well, two things happened. First, I found that, on the whole, the way the WAR was calculated was theoretically and methodologically strong. Second, I found that the statistic confirmed a more logical view of the whole of baseball performance. That is, it found great seasons to be great seasons, regardless, and on the other hand, stardom is about sustained success. On the one hand, Albert Pujols can have a great year and it's a great year precisely because it was great. On the other hand, Albert Pujols is great, and known to be great, because he continues to be great over time. Zobrist, on the other hand, may look amazing over a 1, 2, or even 3 year sample, but when that plays itself out over 5 or 6? Well, he doesn't look great anymore, just good.... because that's what he is.

So, the theory and methodology, as well as the math, behind the statistic stood up, so I needed to change. Secondly, I needed to be a little more patient with my judgment than to get upset at a small sample size.

So, I stumbled upon Wages of Wins about a year ago and it was all new to me since no one here at PSD used WP (we will get to that later). Some of the conclusions of Wins Produced were a little weird and I didn't like them (Mutombo and Wallace were both apparently much better than Mourning) and some that were a little weird compared to PER and WS, but made perfect sense (Kidd and Rodman were superstars), and others that just downright matched expectations (LBJ, CP3, and KD are awesome).

So, I decided I needed to do the same thing I had done with WAR... I needed to research it.

What I found was that the math checked out, the methodology was strong, and the results checked out. In fact, it's been found to be the best when correlating to actual team wins --- that is, explaining what actually happened.

http://sportskeptic.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/nba-retrodiction-contest-part-1-what-happened/

I also found that, for the most part, ESPN and APBR guys simply ignored and dismissed it, never actually dealing with it substantively except for what seemed to be a valid criticism -- low usage rebounders were given too much credit for rebounding because they got 100% of the credit on the change of possession on the DRB. I agreed, and apparently so did David Berri... as they changed this and used diminishing returns to spread the credit for a rebound across the entire defense, while giving the bulk of the credit to the rebounder. The only guys this really helped out a ton were guys who could consistently dominate the boards in high minutes year in and year out.... your Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman guys.

So, not only was it strong, but it had dealt with its biggest critism by adjusting using serious mathematical research and yet guys like Rodman and Wallace were still superstars. I realized that this actually made intuitive sense considering both played on dynasties during their primes, were the best rebounders and defenders in their eras, and consistently won by their team dominating the boards and defense. Coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Berri, et al were just onto something that others were ignoring.

So, I did more research, and ran into some awesome stuff on Dennis Rodman.

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

If you get some time, read it. It's about 150 pages, so be warned. However, this guy's individual work with Dennis Rodman confirms the findings of WP, without even trying to. That is, this guy's research found, on the one hand, that Rebounds were both harder to replace on the basketball court and correlated better with winning than did individual player points. On the other, it found that Dennis Rodman's measurable affect on his team's winning% and MOV is greater than any other player in NBA history that we can measure. So, guys who dominate the boards really are a big part of winning basketball games.

Secondly, the rebound part tends to cause bigs to be valued more than scorers and shooters. However, this is only problematic because of - again - our assumptions. In baseball we found out that CF and C are more valuable defensively than anyone else. In fact, just by playing the position at an average level, they add an extra win to their team every year than anyone else who plays their position at an average level. So, research has found that some positions are, in fact, more valuable than others. And, well, WP research has found that C and PF are more valuable than SF and SG across the whole (unless your SG and SF can shoot at insanely high % and rebound at very good % --- LBJ, Wade, KD, Kobe, MJ, Bird). The thing is, we've actually always known this in basketball --- big men are more valuable and, if you want to win, having a great big man is the best place to start.

Now, WP research confirms this and suddenly it is a bad thing because it "overvalues rebounds at the expense of shot creation." Well, does it? Because the WoW guys would also argue that, so far, there is no such thing as "shot creation." http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/13/the-numbers-and-myths-of-shot-creation/ From what I've been able to tell on my own, they seem to be right. There doesn't seem to be much evidence for it. There just seems to be a lot of missed shots.

Now, what WP would then suggest is that a ball handler/distributor is of high value because, instead of shooters creating shots, high percentage shots are created by ball distributors --- PG. So, now, by rejecting "shot creation", and following the numbers, WP has told us that PG and Bigs are the most important guys on the floor and worth the most value in terms of wins --- again, what we've always said and known. But, when the research confirms this, there's backlash because it doesn't value "scorers" (even though, again, scoring is easier to replace).

Also, shots that are assisted are worth more!!! Go figure... http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm

So, so far I found that WP is

(1) Based off of solid research and mathematics
(2) Does a better job than its competition at explaining what happened
(3) Provides evidentiary foundation for common basketball knowledge (Bigs and PG are most valuable)
(4) Checks out in terms of rebound valuation.

And it really only gets criticized because it doesn't value "scorers" or "shot creators" the way that PER does.

In the end, for me, WP, WS, and RAPM are all far superior to PER and its derivative, EWA, and there is no question about it. Most everyone agrees. The competition then seems to be between the other 3. Again, WP does a better job of explaining what happened than do the other two. That seems important. In fact, even Hollinger admits it does a fantastic job of this, his problem is in the allocation of value across players and he says that while it works for the team, it gets messed up in the aggregate (essentially, it doesn't distribute player value correctly). I say... where is the mathematical alternative?

Look, I'm not saying that WS and RAPM are bad. In fact, if you follow me through this thread (and others) I have always used all 4 in discussing players. Often times they agree. Regularly, however, they do not. When they don't, I dig into the why.

Sorry, that's a short explanation. In the end, I refuse to judge a stat based upon how its conclusions differ from my assumptions. I will always attempt to examine my assumptions and the conclusions both in light of the evidence. So far, most of my research suggests that WP makes a lot of sense and the only complaint against it so far is that "shot creators" like Carmelo are undervalued while "rebounders" like Tyson Chandler are overvalued. I say, why not follow standard basketball knowledge and let a good PG run that offense instead of Melo and see how much better he and the rest of that team get?

I'd also say, look at larger sample sizes. Was Kevin Love better than LeBron 2012? Maybe. Is Kevin Love better than LeBron? No, and WP doesn't think so, either. It just takes a longer view to see what it's saying there. One great season is just one great season.


Now... all that is to say, we can throw WP48 out the window if the other guy wants. My point remains the same... Wade was absolutely fantastic last year, by any measure, while Kobe had one of his worst season ever as a starter.

I guess, for me, the prospect of learning is more fun than being right. I enjoy finding out that it's no accident the 96-98 Bulls were the best team ever because, instead of having 2 stars and a bunch of role players and a "great rebounder"... they had the best Big3 that has played together in my lifetime. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, better yet, finding out that instead of having a "coming out party" in the playoffs last year, Kawhi Leonard was a star all year... we just weren't paying attention. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that the Pistons went to 7 straight ECFs not just because they played in a weak East, but because Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace were superstars and Tayshaun Prince was a real star, not just a defensive specialist. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that Shane Battier isn't just a guy who does the "little things that don't show up in the box score" but that, instead, if we were looking at the box score correctly, we'd have seen that he was a great player throughout his prime and what he did does show up in the box score. Again, that's fun and it makes sense.

I find most people don't have that outlook. They see "scorers" like Westbrook and Carmelo valued less and guys like Tyson Chandler above Hibbert, etc. Instead of figuring out why, they just dismiss it. Oddly enough, WS also has Tyson Chandler as the 2nd best C in the NBA over the past 4 years. Sometimes our assumptions are just plain wrong. WP and WS both tell us that Chandler is a beast, and WP tells us that it is no coincidence that a team of Kidd, Dirk, Marion, and Chandler was able to win a championship, or that when Kidd and Tyson left town to join NY, DAL got much worse and NY got much better.

Again, sometimes our assumptions are just wrong. To me, that's a fun thing to discover. Learning is fantastic, and WP has done that for me. Are there some things I think could be better about it? Sure, like allocating value on assisted FGs to both the passer and the shooter so that a scorer who scores a higher number of their points unassisted is valued more. That is "shot creation." Passers get valued for creating shots, and shooters who score a high percentage without assists get value. Not guys who shoot below league average from the field, just do it a lot (looking at you PER).

In the end, I hope no one just looks at one stat. I think that's my biggest problem with Berri, et al. They give no other system the benefit of the doubt, and give their own stat no doubt. They are one-stat guys and draw all conclusions based upon their pet statistic. They're rightly criticized for that. However, the WP stat stands on its own merits, not the faults of its creators. And, from my research, it seems that WP is the best of the bunch, while WS and RAPM are still good stats that I will always check second.

amos1er
08-05-2013, 09:20 PM
exactly. he could have deferred to nash and dwight a bit more and used more of his energy on defense. he is all about glory and legacy though. there is a lot more glory in playing offense. he must just think "to hell with defense." aall about legacy and self image for kobe.

Ya, and winning championships isn't a factor at all right. :rolleyes:

amos1er
08-05-2013, 09:23 PM
Let me start by addressing this and I will do so shortly in a few points:

(1) A stat's ability to predict should not be considered a negative in terms of its ability to explain. Those are different functions.

(2) The win projections computed by Arturo are ultimately subject to his minute allocation, which is where I find my biggest beef. So, just to clarify, I did not offer up the predictions to suggest they will necessarily be accurate (although, the 20-game range on many teams looks very good to me). It was to show that the Rockets have a much more talented roster than the Warriors and, even if the gap is nowhere near as wide as Arturo's model suggests, the Rockets will likely be better than the Warriors.

(3) Any more conversation about Arturo's use of the WP48 statistic in doing predictions for the upcoming season should wait until the offseason is completed and he actually runs his model simulation which.... last year... picked the San Antonio Spurs to beat the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with Miami in 7 as the second most likely outcome. I haven't seen any model, the WoW model included, which is able to accurately project and predict every team, not even within a 10-game spread. So, that should be noted when discussing predictions/projections.

That's all for now on that. Now, to the fun stuff...



Ultimately, you're coming in through the back door. The reality is that the value of a metric isn't and shouldn't be based on our prior assumptions. Now, part of this is me being a baseball guy... let me clarify.

Small sample sizes matter. Players can have good years or bad years. I don't know if you follow baseball, but from 2009-2011, Ben Zobrist was a top3 player in baseball according to WAR. A lot of people thought that was crazy, myself included. However, instead of judging WAR based upon its conclusion and how well that conclusion fit with my prior beliefs, I studied the statistic to figure out (1) how it values events and comes to its conclusions and (2) therefore, if this conclusion was really crazy or if it was me who needed to change.

Well, two things happened. First, I found that, on the whole, the way the WAR was calculated was theoretically and methodologically strong. Second, I found that the statistic confirmed a more logical view of the whole of baseball performance. That is, it found great seasons to be great seasons, regardless, and on the other hand, stardom is about sustained success. On the one hand, Albert Pujols can have a great year and it's a great year precisely because it was great. On the other hand, Albert Pujols is great, and known to be great, because he continues to be great over time. Zobrist, on the other hand, may look amazing over a 1, 2, or even 3 year sample, but when that plays itself out over 5 or 6? Well, he doesn't look great anymore, just good.... because that's what he is.

So, the theory and methodology, as well as the math, behind the statistic stood up, so I needed to change. Secondly, I needed to be a little more patient with my judgment than to get upset at a small sample size.

So, I stumbled upon Wages of Wins about a year ago and it was all new to me since no one here at PSD used WP (we will get to that later). Some of the conclusions of Wins Produced were a little weird and I didn't like them (Mutombo and Wallace were both apparently much better than Mourning) and some that were a little weird compared to PER and WS, but made perfect sense (Kidd and Rodman were superstars), and others that just downright matched expectations (LBJ, CP3, and KD are awesome).

So, I decided I needed to do the same thing I had done with WAR... I needed to research it.

What I found was that the math checked out, the methodology was strong, and the results checked out. In fact, it's been found to be the best when correlating to actual team wins --- that is, explaining what actually happened.

http://sportskeptic.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/nba-retrodiction-contest-part-1-what-happened/

I also found that, for the most part, ESPN and APBR guys simply ignored and dismissed it, never actually dealing with it substantively except for what seemed to be a valid criticism -- low usage rebounders were given too much credit for rebounding because they got 100% of the credit on the change of possession on the DRB. I agreed, and apparently so did David Berri... as they changed this and used diminishing returns to spread the credit for a rebound across the entire defense, while giving the bulk of the credit to the rebounder. The only guys this really helped out a ton were guys who could consistently dominate the boards in high minutes year in and year out.... your Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman guys.

So, not only was it strong, but it had dealt with its biggest critism by adjusting using serious mathematical research and yet guys like Rodman and Wallace were still superstars. I realized that this actually made intuitive sense considering both played on dynasties during their primes, were the best rebounders and defenders in their eras, and consistently won by their team dominating the boards and defense. Coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Berri, et al were just onto something that others were ignoring.

So, I did more research, and ran into some awesome stuff on Dennis Rodman.

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

If you get some time, read it. It's about 150 pages, so be warned. However, this guy's individual work with Dennis Rodman confirms the findings of WP, without even trying to. That is, this guy's research found, on the one hand, that Rebounds were both harder to replace on the basketball court and correlated better with winning than did individual player points. On the other, it found that Dennis Rodman's measurable affect on his team's winning% and MOV is greater than any other player in NBA history that we can measure. So, guys who dominate the boards really are a big part of winning basketball games.

Secondly, the rebound part tends to cause bigs to be valued more than scorers and shooters. However, this is only problematic because of - again - our assumptions. In baseball we found out that CF and C are more valuable defensively than anyone else. In fact, just by playing the position at an average level, they add an extra win to their team every year than anyone else who plays their position at an average level. So, research has found that some positions are, in fact, more valuable than others. And, well, WP research has found that C and PF are more valuable than SF and SG across the whole (unless your SG and SF can shoot at insanely high % and rebound at very good % --- LBJ, Wade, KD, Kobe, MJ, Bird). The thing is, we've actually always known this in basketball --- big men are more valuable and, if you want to win, having a great big man is the best place to start.

Now, WP research confirms this and suddenly it is a bad thing because it "overvalues rebounds at the expense of shot creation." Well, does it? Because the WoW guys would also argue that, so far, there is no such thing as "shot creation." http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/13/the-numbers-and-myths-of-shot-creation/ From what I've been able to tell on my own, they seem to be right. There doesn't seem to be much evidence for it. There just seems to be a lot of missed shots.

Now, what WP would then suggest is that a ball handler/distributor is of high value because, instead of shooters creating shots, high percentage shots are created by ball distributors --- PG. So, now, by rejecting "shot creation", and following the numbers, WP has told us that PG and Bigs are the most important guys on the floor and worth the most value in terms of wins --- again, what we've always said and known. But, when the research confirms this, there's backlash because it doesn't value "scorers" (even though, again, scoring is easier to replace).

Also, shots that are assisted are worth more!!! Go figure... http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm

So, so far I found that WP is

(1) Based off of solid research and mathematics
(2) Does a better job than its competition at explaining what happened
(3) Provides evidentiary foundation for common basketball knowledge (Bigs and PG are most valuable)
(4) Checks out in terms of rebound valuation.

And it really only gets criticized because it doesn't value "scorers" or "shot creators" the way that PER does.

In the end, for me, WP, WS, and RAPM are all far superior to PER and its derivative, EWA, and there is no question about it. Most everyone agrees. The competition then seems to be between the other 3. Again, WP does a better job of explaining what happened than do the other two. That seems important. In fact, even Hollinger admits it does a fantastic job of this, his problem is in the allocation of value across players and he says that while it works for the team, it gets messed up in the aggregate (essentially, it doesn't distribute player value correctly). I say... where is the mathematical alternative?

Look, I'm not saying that WS and RAPM are bad. In fact, if you follow me through this thread (and others) I have always used all 4 in discussing players. Often times they agree. Regularly, however, they do not. When they don't, I dig into the why.

Sorry, that's a short explanation. In the end, I refuse to judge a stat based upon how its conclusions differ from my assumptions. I will always attempt to examine my assumptions and the conclusions both in light of the evidence. So far, most of my research suggests that WP makes a lot of sense and the only complaint against it so far is that "shot creators" like Carmelo are undervalued while "rebounders" like Tyson Chandler are overvalued. I say, why not follow standard basketball knowledge and let a good PG run that offense instead of Melo and see how much better he and the rest of that team get?

I'd also say, look at larger sample sizes. Was Kevin Love better than LeBron last year? Maybe. Is Kevin Love better than LeBron? No, and WP doesn't think so, either. It just takes a longer view to see what it's saying there. One great season is just one great season.


Now... all that is to say, we can throw WP48 out the window if the other guy wants. My point remains the same... Wade was absolutely fantastic last year, by any measure, while Kobe had one of his worst season ever as a starter.

I guess, for me, the prospect of learning is more fun than being right. I enjoy finding out that it's no accident the 96-98 Bulls were the best team ever because, instead of having 2 stars and a bunch of role players and a "great rebounder"... they had the best Big3 that has played together in my lifetime. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, better yet, finding out that instead of having a "coming out party" in the playoffs last year, Kawhi Leonard was a star all year... we just weren't paying attention. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that the Pistons went to 7 straight ECFs not just because they played in a weak East, but because Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace were superstars and Tayshaun Prince was a real star, not just a defensive specialist. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that Shane Battier isn't just a guy who does the "little things that don't show up in the box score" but that, instead, if we were looking at the box score correctly, we'd have seen that he was a great player throughout his prime and what he did does show up in the box score. Again, that's fun and it makes sense.

I find most people don't have that outlook. They see "scorers" like Westbrook and Carmelo valued less and guys like Tyson Chandler above Hibbert, etc. Instead of figuring out why, they just dismiss it. Oddly enough, WS also has Tyson Chandler as the 2nd best C in the NBA over the past 4 years. Sometimes our assumptions are just plain wrong. WP and WS both tell us that Chandler is a beast, and WP tells us that it is no coincidence that a team of Kidd, Dirk, Marion, and Chandler was able to win a championship, or that when Kidd and Tyson left town to join NY, DAL got much worse and NY got much better.

Again, sometimes our assumptions are just wrong. To me, that's a fun thing to discover. Learning is fantastic, and WP has done that for me. Are there some things I think could be better about it? Sure, like allocating value on assisted FGs to both the passer and the shooter so that a scorer who scores a higher number of their points unassisted is valued more. That is "shot creation." Passers get valued for creating shots, and shooters who score a high percentage without assists get value. Not guys who shoot below league average from the field, just do it a lot (looking at you PER).

In the end, I hope no one just looks at one stat. I think that's my biggest problem with Berri, et al. They give no other system the benefit of the doubt, and give their own stat no doubt. They are one-stat guys and draw all conclusions based upon their pet statistic. They're rightly criticized for that. However, the WP stat stands on its own merits, not the faults of its creators. And, from my research, it seems that WP is the best of the bunch, while WS and RAPM are still good stats that I will always check second.

dayum!!! This guys bringin his 'A' game today!!!

SportsFanatic10
08-05-2013, 09:33 PM
Ya, and it was no coincidence that the league was in desperate need of a new superstar at the time and the dull Mavericks team would not have been nearly as financially beneficial. This is all speculation on my part of course, but it does make a lot of sense. Especially considering how close the games were. The four games Miami won were all decided by 3 points or less. That is huge considering the disparity in free throws Wade got compared to the other players on the Mavs... especially Dirk. In game 5 Wade got to the line 25 TIMES!!! That was exactly equal to the number of times the entire Mavs team got to the line. Pretty sure thats never happened before in NBA finals history... You know, a player getting to the line as many times as an entire opposing team. Except for game 2 of the 2008 NBA finals where Powe got to the line more than the entire Lakers team and we all know what a bs game that was. The Mavs had advantages in nearly all statistical categories including shots made, FG%, turnovers, rebounds, points in paint, and points off turnovers in those final four games Miami won. The only clear advantage Miami had was freethrow attempts...and it was by an unnaturally large gap. Go look up the numbers and see for yourself. Something just didn't seem right about that series. Especially the way Wade got those game winning free throws in game five when he didn't even get fouled. Funny how the refs never blow the whistle for anyone else in late game situations including Manu this year when he was clearly fouled in game 6...Of course Wade gets the call when he wasn't even touched.

http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

http://www.82games.com/fouldraw.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6rl4-7YtXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJYlMdFGsw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aySGUzzxjGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFA5vSjvzGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC9H66odmrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAZeuO2qEqE

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rigged/page/12

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9180912AAkwnDO


lol your posts are always ridiculous, give wade his credit he was a one man wrecking crew against the mavs. he put on a historic display no matter what you think about it.

fresh prince
08-05-2013, 10:13 PM
sorry, Michael Jordan was 34 in his 1996-97 season, & that season blows Kobe's 34 year old season away. and he was 1st team all defensive, while Kobe played no defense whatsoever(that's not absolutely phenomenal at all.). Michael's 1998 season at age 35 kills Kobe's 2013 season too, & once again MJ was 1st team all defensive. MJ was scoring more, shootin a better%, turning the ball over way less, getting more steals, & blocks, & rebounds, much higher PER, & playing great defense. while winning mvp, & 2 finals mvps & still the best player in the nba at ages 34 & 35, with plenty of legendary moments in the playoffs & finals. now that's "absolutely phenomenal". your definition of that phrase sets the bar pretty low

No. Need to apologize. Jordan is the goat, Kobe is the only player that' even has a comparable season at that age. His 2012 -2013 age 34 season was is and always will be phenomenal. You just Can't take that away by citing stats of Michael Jeffrey Jordan. It's like comparing a multi millionaire to Waren Buffet and calling them poor.

goingfor28
08-05-2013, 10:14 PM
i hate the lakers, but assuming he comes back healthy, kobe is still hands down the best 2 guard in the NBA. without question

fresh prince
08-05-2013, 10:17 PM
exactly. he could have deferred to nash and dwight a bit more and used more of his energy on defense. he is all about glory and legacy though. there is a lot more glory in playing offense. he must just think "to hell with defense." aall about legacy and self image for kobe.

I don't think God himself could have made sure Dwight average 20-21 last season. The guy looked like Kwame brown out there

el hidalgo
08-05-2013, 10:31 PM
I don't think God himself could have made sure Dwight average 20-21 last season. The guy looked like Kwame brown out there
:laugh: only time kwame will ever average 17.1 points and 12.4 rebounds on 58% shooting is in nba 2k. silly comparison

el hidalgo
08-05-2013, 10:33 PM
Ya, and winning championships isn't a factor at all right. :rolleyes:

didn't seem to matter when he drove shaq out. it is a factor, as long as he is the #1 man on the team and it improves his legacy. I can't see kobe wanting to be on a championship team where he isn't the 1st option.

tredigs
08-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Let me start by addressing this and I will do so shortly in a few points:

(1) A stat's ability to predict should not be considered a negative in terms of its ability to explain. Those are different functions.

(2) The win projections computed by Arturo are ultimately subject to his minute allocation, which is where I find my biggest beef. So, just to clarify, I did not offer up the predictions to suggest they will necessarily be accurate (although, the 20-game range on many teams looks very good to me). It was to show that the Rockets have a much more talented roster than the Warriors and, even if the gap is nowhere near as wide as Arturo's model suggests, the Rockets will likely be better than the Warriors.

(3) Any more conversation about Arturo's use of the WP48 statistic in doing predictions for the upcoming season should wait until the offseason is completed and he actually runs his model simulation which.... last year... picked the San Antonio Spurs to beat the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals in 6 games, with Miami in 7 as the second most likely outcome. I haven't seen any model, the WoW model included, which is able to accurately project and predict every team, not even within a 10-game spread. So, that should be noted when discussing predictions/projections.

That's all for now on that. Now, to the fun stuff...



Ultimately, you're coming in through the back door. The reality is that the value of a metric isn't and shouldn't be based on our prior assumptions. Now, part of this is me being a baseball guy... let me clarify.

Small sample sizes matter. Players can have good years or bad years. I don't know if you follow baseball, but from 2009-2011, Ben Zobrist was a top3 player in baseball according to WAR. A lot of people thought that was crazy, myself included. However, instead of judging WAR based upon its conclusion and how well that conclusion fit with my prior beliefs, I studied the statistic to figure out (1) how it values events and comes to its conclusions and (2) therefore, if this conclusion was really crazy or if it was me who needed to change.

Well, two things happened. First, I found that, on the whole, the way the WAR was calculated was theoretically and methodologically strong. Second, I found that the statistic confirmed a more logical view of the whole of baseball performance. That is, it found great seasons to be great seasons, regardless, and on the other hand, stardom is about sustained success. On the one hand, Albert Pujols can have a great year and it's a great year precisely because it was great. On the other hand, Albert Pujols is great, and known to be great, because he continues to be great over time. Zobrist, on the other hand, may look amazing over a 1, 2, or even 3 year sample, but when that plays itself out over 5 or 6? Well, he doesn't look great anymore, just good.... because that's what he is.

So, the theory and methodology, as well as the math, behind the statistic stood up, so I needed to change. Secondly, I needed to be a little more patient with my judgment than to get upset at a small sample size.

So, I stumbled upon Wages of Wins about a year ago and it was all new to me since no one here at PSD used WP (we will get to that later). Some of the conclusions of Wins Produced were a little weird and I didn't like them (Mutombo and Wallace were both apparently much better than Mourning) and some that were a little weird compared to PER and WS, but made perfect sense (Kidd and Rodman were superstars), and others that just downright matched expectations (LBJ, CP3, and KD are awesome).

So, I decided I needed to do the same thing I had done with WAR... I needed to research it.

What I found was that the math checked out, the methodology was strong, and the results checked out. In fact, it's been found to be the best when correlating to actual team wins --- that is, explaining what actually happened.

http://sportskeptic.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/nba-retrodiction-contest-part-1-what-happened/

I also found that, for the most part, ESPN and APBR guys simply ignored and dismissed it, never actually dealing with it substantively except for what seemed to be a valid criticism -- low usage rebounders were given too much credit for rebounding because they got 100% of the credit on the change of possession on the DRB. I agreed, and apparently so did David Berri... as they changed this and used diminishing returns to spread the credit for a rebound across the entire defense, while giving the bulk of the credit to the rebounder. The only guys this really helped out a ton were guys who could consistently dominate the boards in high minutes year in and year out.... your Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman guys.

So, not only was it strong, but it had dealt with its biggest critism by adjusting using serious mathematical research and yet guys like Rodman and Wallace were still superstars. I realized that this actually made intuitive sense considering both played on dynasties during their primes, were the best rebounders and defenders in their eras, and consistently won by their team dominating the boards and defense. Coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Berri, et al were just onto something that others were ignoring.

So, I did more research, and ran into some awesome stuff on Dennis Rodman.

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

If you get some time, read it. It's about 150 pages, so be warned. However, this guy's individual work with Dennis Rodman confirms the findings of WP, without even trying to. That is, this guy's research found, on the one hand, that Rebounds were both harder to replace on the basketball court and correlated better with winning than did individual player points. On the other, it found that Dennis Rodman's measurable affect on his team's winning% and MOV is greater than any other player in NBA history that we can measure. So, guys who dominate the boards really are a big part of winning basketball games.

Secondly, the rebound part tends to cause bigs to be valued more than scorers and shooters. However, this is only problematic because of - again - our assumptions. In baseball we found out that CF and C are more valuable defensively than anyone else. In fact, just by playing the position at an average level, they add an extra win to their team every year than anyone else who plays their position at an average level. So, research has found that some positions are, in fact, more valuable than others. And, well, WP research has found that C and PF are more valuable than SF and SG across the whole (unless your SG and SF can shoot at insanely high % and rebound at very good % --- LBJ, Wade, KD, Kobe, MJ, Bird). The thing is, we've actually always known this in basketball --- big men are more valuable and, if you want to win, having a great big man is the best place to start.

Now, WP research confirms this and suddenly it is a bad thing because it "overvalues rebounds at the expense of shot creation." Well, does it? Because the WoW guys would also argue that, so far, there is no such thing as "shot creation." http://wagesofwins.com/2012/03/13/the-numbers-and-myths-of-shot-creation/ From what I've been able to tell on my own, they seem to be right. There doesn't seem to be much evidence for it. There just seems to be a lot of missed shots.

Now, what WP would then suggest is that a ball handler/distributor is of high value because, instead of shooters creating shots, high percentage shots are created by ball distributors --- PG. So, now, by rejecting "shot creation", and following the numbers, WP has told us that PG and Bigs are the most important guys on the floor and worth the most value in terms of wins --- again, what we've always said and known. But, when the research confirms this, there's backlash because it doesn't value "scorers" (even though, again, scoring is easier to replace).

Also, shots that are assisted are worth more!!! Go figure... http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm

So, so far I found that WP is

(1) Based off of solid research and mathematics
(2) Does a better job than its competition at explaining what happened
(3) Provides evidentiary foundation for common basketball knowledge (Bigs and PG are most valuable)
(4) Checks out in terms of rebound valuation.

And it really only gets criticized because it doesn't value "scorers" or "shot creators" the way that PER does.

In the end, for me, WP, WS, and RAPM are all far superior to PER and its derivative, EWA, and there is no question about it. Most everyone agrees. The competition then seems to be between the other 3. Again, WP does a better job of explaining what happened than do the other two. That seems important. In fact, even Hollinger admits it does a fantastic job of this, his problem is in the allocation of value across players and he says that while it works for the team, it gets messed up in the aggregate (essentially, it doesn't distribute player value correctly). I say... where is the mathematical alternative?

Look, I'm not saying that WS and RAPM are bad. In fact, if you follow me through this thread (and others) I have always used all 4 in discussing players. Often times they agree. Regularly, however, they do not. When they don't, I dig into the why.

Sorry, that's a short explanation. In the end, I refuse to judge a stat based upon how its conclusions differ from my assumptions. I will always attempt to examine my assumptions and the conclusions both in light of the evidence. So far, most of my research suggests that WP makes a lot of sense and the only complaint against it so far is that "shot creators" like Carmelo are undervalued while "rebounders" like Tyson Chandler are overvalued. I say, why not follow standard basketball knowledge and let a good PG run that offense instead of Melo and see how much better he and the rest of that team get?

I'd also say, look at larger sample sizes. Was Kevin Love better than LeBron 2012? Maybe. Is Kevin Love better than LeBron? No, and WP doesn't think so, either. It just takes a longer view to see what it's saying there. One great season is just one great season.


Now... all that is to say, we can throw WP48 out the window if the other guy wants. My point remains the same... Wade was absolutely fantastic last year, by any measure, while Kobe had one of his worst season ever as a starter.

I guess, for me, the prospect of learning is more fun than being right. I enjoy finding out that it's no accident the 96-98 Bulls were the best team ever because, instead of having 2 stars and a bunch of role players and a "great rebounder"... they had the best Big3 that has played together in my lifetime. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, better yet, finding out that instead of having a "coming out party" in the playoffs last year, Kawhi Leonard was a star all year... we just weren't paying attention. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that the Pistons went to 7 straight ECFs not just because they played in a weak East, but because Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace were superstars and Tayshaun Prince was a real star, not just a defensive specialist. That's fun, and it makes sense.

Or, finding out that Shane Battier isn't just a guy who does the "little things that don't show up in the box score" but that, instead, if we were looking at the box score correctly, we'd have seen that he was a great player throughout his prime and what he did does show up in the box score. Again, that's fun and it makes sense.

I find most people don't have that outlook. They see "scorers" like Westbrook and Carmelo valued less and guys like Tyson Chandler above Hibbert, etc. Instead of figuring out why, they just dismiss it. Oddly enough, WS also has Tyson Chandler as the 2nd best C in the NBA over the past 4 years. Sometimes our assumptions are just plain wrong. WP and WS both tell us that Chandler is a beast, and WP tells us that it is no coincidence that a team of Kidd, Dirk, Marion, and Chandler was able to win a championship, or that when Kidd and Tyson left town to join NY, DAL got much worse and NY got much better.

Again, sometimes our assumptions are just wrong. To me, that's a fun thing to discover. Learning is fantastic, and WP has done that for me. Are there some things I think could be better about it? Sure, like allocating value on assisted FGs to both the passer and the shooter so that a scorer who scores a higher number of their points unassisted is valued more. That is "shot creation." Passers get valued for creating shots, and shooters who score a high percentage without assists get value. Not guys who shoot below league average from the field, just do it a lot (looking at you PER).

In the end, I hope no one just looks at one stat. I think that's my biggest problem with Berri, et al. They give no other system the benefit of the doubt, and give their own stat no doubt. They are one-stat guys and draw all conclusions based upon their pet statistic. They're rightly criticized for that. However, the WP stat stands on its own merits, not the faults of its creators. And, from my research, it seems that WP is the best of the bunch, while WS and RAPM are still good stats that I will always check second.

That's a fantastic outlook and along the lines of where I thought you were going with this. There's no doubt that I'm guilty of some cognitive dissonance when stats that I've background checked and approved of in many ways paint a different picture than how I perceive players/teams from other measures + eye test. So that's noted, and while guys like Reggie Evans have a larger impact than most probably realize due to their rebounding prowess, I wonder if WP goes far enough to account for the "black hole" factor of defenses being able to largely ignore you on one side of the court (ie how much personal weakness on offense goes farther than that in hurting other players personal production due to being able to overplay them).

I'll check out the Rodman piece and look deeper into WoW, it's definitely been on my radar the past year or two and something I've been giving a lot of notice to, so I appreciate the rundown. Great post.

WadeKobe
08-05-2013, 11:02 PM
I wonder if WP goes far enough to account for the "black hole" factor of defenses being able to largely ignore you on one side of the court (ie how much personal weakness on offense goes farther than that in hurting other players personal production due to being able to overplay them).


this is a very good question, and one I think is valid. However, I'm not entirely sure that there is a way to evaluate this in a single wins statistic, or to adjust for it. So, I would tend to think a fair approach would e that when one finds two players who are close (Evans and DWill), and this is true of them, the edge should go to the offensive man in that case (DWill).

tr3ymill3r
08-05-2013, 11:47 PM
Kobe fans and Laker fans grab your pitchforks and get him. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Sssmush
08-05-2013, 11:49 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-kobe-bryant-houston-rockets-james-harden-180400781.html



Some interesting points:

1. Interesting that the article doesn't mention Wade at all. Some (myself included) think Wade surpassed Kobe a couple of seasons ago and Kobe only regained his best SG in the league moniker this season.

2. Idk if I have ever considered Kobe the clear-cut best player in the league, though I'm sure a case could easily be made.

3. 2008 is probably a solid year to assert LBJ finally surpassed Kobe, but I think it could've been earlier, at least the year prior.

4. Last year, I thought Kobe was better than Wade and Harden, but I think moving forward, especially with injury, Kobe will no longer ever be the best SG in the league.

Discuss...?

EDIT: Not a bait and troll thread, please keep it civil, I don't want another warning/infraction :p


Honestly, I'm not sure if I've really seen "the right stuff" from Harden for him to really be in this particular conversation.

The one feather in his cap would be the series when Oklahoma beat the Lakers in the playoffs... but we all saw that Harden was faaaaar from dominating in that series and in fact it was pretty much 100% Westbrook and Durant. (Westbrook seems to play the same position as Harden by the way, and Harden was coming off the bench that series). In fact Harden was much better known for his weird flopping and infuriating defensive tactics than anything else.

Last year, after being TRADED from Oklahoma for peanuts (and who trades "the best 2 guard in the NBA" when they don't have to?) he had a *meh* season in Houston, capped off by getting beat by the Lakers on the Final game of the regular season and then easily knocked out of the playoffs.

So... yeah, Harden is a nice player... but he seems to be way too inconsistent at this point. He's had a few monster games but lots of very average games also. Kobe has seemingly scored 28+ points for every game since 2000. Harden probably had more 12 point 2 assist games just last season than Kobe has had in his entire career. I just don't see how suddenly people are ready to anoint James Harden as the best shooting guard in the entire league without him really having done anything, and only having started at the position for one season.

Kobe, Wade, obviously, still have to be considered. Westbrook... WOW that guy is unstoppable and incredibly unique player. RAY ALLEN just showed monster championship stuff and is probably to this day a better outside scorer than Harden may ever be. Igoudala, Ellis, Joe Johnson, Eric Gordon, Tony Allen, Ginobili... I'm just not sure what James Harden has really done so far to be considered above any of those guys.

In particular, looking at the new generation, I think Harden has to do something amazing just to get out of the shadow of Westbrook.

Does he pass Kobe this year, in terms of "yeah I'd rather have Harden on my team than Kobe Bryant" ? Hmmmm, we'll just have to see. It depends how good Kobe comes back from injury, how he changes up his game, etc, and how Harden improves.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 12:19 AM
dayum!!! This guys bringin his 'A' game today!!!

You hate PER, wait till you get a load of WP

flea
08-06-2013, 01:01 AM
Everyone should hate PER. It's about as good as RBIs in baseball.

Bostonjorge
08-06-2013, 01:10 AM
Kobe is the first option on any team. This game will always be about buckets.

WadeKobe
08-06-2013, 01:16 AM
Everyone should hate PER. It's about as good as RBIs in baseball.

No, it is more like unadjusted OPS+. It doesn't correlate well with wins, it doesn't communicate meaningful information (what is a 18 PER wort?), and it is outdated and has been relaced by better stats.

Points are the equivalent of RBIs in baseball. By itself, the stat means nothing.

monty77
08-06-2013, 09:45 AM
In my opinion, Wade hasn't never been as good player as Kobe Bryant, even when he win the campionship along with O'Neal and proved that he was a fair MVP vs Dallas. There is no doubt about that KB24 has been the best SG since Jordan retirement. But now is moment to step aside and give way to the new generations.

Carter, Kobe, McGrady, Wade... all of them allstar players long time. Neither of them :oldguy: can be compared with Harden nowadays. He is the best SG without doubt and he will be the best during the next 10 years if don't appear some superstar players in next drafts or players such as Thompson, Beal or Waiters step forward.

As far as last year, Kobe remain as the best SG, owed to his mentality and ethic work, but this isn't enough when you overcome 35. If Kobe keep the top 1 in this spot is because of there are a few star players who play in this position. Like Center position, there is a lack of talent players during the last five years.

Kobe has been along with O'Neal, Lebron and Duncan, the best player in the last decade, he hardly is a top 10 NBA player if he is healthy, though. I consider Lebron, Durant and Carmelo Anthony better player than he is, but they play as SF. I also consider C.Paul, Rose (if heathly), Curry, Irving and Wall better players than he is, but they play as PG. Consequently, he is lucky that only a player like Harden play in the same position because it allows him to keep top 3 ranking as SG.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 12:20 PM
Not from my experience, pretty sure most of the respected/long tenured members here agree in its been a hot debate over the years.

Respected = Lebron homers.
Just because PSD agrees on something, it doesn't make it true.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 12:25 PM
didn't seem to matter when he drove shaq out. it is a factor, as long as he is the #1 man on the team and it improves his legacy. I can't see kobe wanting to be on a championship team where he isn't the 1st option.

Still posting after losing an account bet huh DMF2? No shame to your game.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 01:25 PM
Respected = Lebron homers.
Good luck proving that one, your rep here has been tarnished, nobody cares what the worlds biggest kobephile thinks of them.


Just because PSD agrees on something, it doesn't make it true.
Sorry but you should already know your straws are wasted on me. Nobody ever said it was true so spare me your insecurities, sadly for you, the topic is about how PSD has debated the matter. Thus, PSD is what matters.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 01:52 PM
Good luck proving that one, your rep here has been tarnished, nobody cares what the worlds biggest kobephile thinks of them.


Sorry but you should already know your straws are wasted on me. Nobody ever said it was true so spare me your insecurities, sadly for you, the topic is about how PSD has debated the matter. Thus, PSD is what matters.

To you, in your little internet Lebron Fiesta. In the real world, no one makes the claims you guys do.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 02:05 PM
To you
No, to the context of the discussion. The one YOU attempted to jump in on. We are discussing what PSD has thought over the years, thus, PSD is the relevant factor. Its ok to admit your wrong bro, we can all see it.



In the real world, no one makes the claims you guys do.
To you.

el hidalgo
08-06-2013, 02:07 PM
No, to the context of the discussion. The one YOU attempted to jump in on. We are discussing what PSD has thought over the years, thus, PSD is the relevant factor. Its ok to admit your wrong bro, we can all see it.


To you.

^2

ShowtimeNo24
08-06-2013, 02:42 PM
I'm sure Harden will be a terrific player one day, but saying he was better than Kobe last season? The only players that really played better last season compared to him were Durant and Lebron. This season may be diffrent, but last season there was no doubt who was the best SG in the league.

RLundi
08-06-2013, 03:02 PM
I'm sure Harden will be a terrific player one day, but saying he was better than Kobe last season? The only players that really played better last season compared to him were Durant and Lebron. This season may be diffrent, but last season there was no doubt who was the best SG in the league.

I'd add Melo, CP3 and Westbrook to that list

Harden is a toss-up but I'll give the nod to Kobe because of Harden's lack of longevity.

TheIlladelph16
08-06-2013, 03:32 PM
All Kobe related threads:

Wade vs. Kobe as the primary discussion? Check
Amoser using Youtube videos as "proof" of something? Check
Back and forth baiting? Check


All is right in the PSD NBA forum world. I both love and hate this little NBA community haha

LoveMeOrHateMe
08-06-2013, 03:33 PM
I'd add Melo, CP3 and Westbrook to that list

Harden is a toss-up but I'll give the nod to Kobe because of Harden's lack of longevity.

Melo and Westbrook better then Kobe last year? Lol nope cp3 is a toss up only lebron and Durant were better

RLundi
08-06-2013, 03:38 PM
Melo and Westbrook better then Kobe last year? Lol nope cp3 is a toss up only lebron and Durant were better

What is your criteria?

I meant, besides your bias, that is.

RLundi
08-06-2013, 03:40 PM
All Kobe related threads:

Wade vs. Kobe as the primary discussion? Check
Amoser using Youtube videos as "proof" of something? Check
Back and forth baiting? Check


All is right in the PSD NBA forum world. I both love and hate this little NBA community haha

The first one is moreso Kobe vs Harden, so one check is taken away.

2 out of 3 ain't bad.

4milesperday
08-06-2013, 03:50 PM
I still don't think Harden is even better than Wade or Kobe. Can Harden play defense? Wade can shut is ***** down but can Harden shut Wade down? I rest my case....

ShowtimeNo24
08-06-2013, 04:04 PM
All Kobe related threads:

Wade vs. Kobe as the primary discussion? Check
Amoser using Youtube videos as "proof" of something? Check
Back and forth baiting? Check


All is right in the PSD NBA forum world. I both love and hate this little NBA community haha

Thats why i hardly post anything in here. Most threads go full-****** as soon as someone mentions Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Rose, Durant .. etc.

amos1er
08-06-2013, 04:14 PM
In my opinion, Wade hasn't never been as good player as Kobe Bryant, even when he win the campionship along with O'Neal and proved that he was a fair MVP vs Dallas. There is no doubt about that KB24 has been the best SG since Jordan retirement. But now is moment to step aside and give way to the new generations.

Carter, Kobe, McGrady, Wade... all of them allstar players long time. Neither of them :oldguy: can be compared with Harden nowadays. He is the best SG without doubt and he will be the best during the next 10 years if don't appear some superstar players in next drafts or players such as Thompson, Beal or Waiters step forward.

As far as last year, Kobe remain as the best SG, owed to his mentality and ethic work, but this isn't enough when you overcome 35. If Kobe keep the top 1 in this spot is because of there are a few star players who play in this position. Like Center position, there is a lack of talent players during the last five years.

Kobe has been along with O'Neal, Lebron and Duncan, the best player in the last decade, he hardly is a top 10 NBA player if he is healthy, though. I consider Lebron, Durant and Carmelo Anthony better player than he is, but they play as SF. I also consider C.Paul, Rose (if heathly), Curry, Irving and Wall better players than he is, but they play as PG. Consequently, he is lucky that only a player like Harden play in the same position because it allows him to keep top 3 ranking as SG.

At least you can admit that Wade was never really a true rival to Kobe. But as for this nonsense about Harden, Rose, Curry, Wall, and Anthony surpassing Kobe... I just can't see any evidence to support this claim. Rose only had one good season, and in that season, he never came close to touching Kobe. Just because the media went on some campaign and decided to give him the MVP for what was to many the most undeserving MVP in league history, doesn't mean that he is elite. He is actually very overrated. Harden is nowhere in Kobe's league. The guy had one decent season...still wasn't even on the level of a 17 year vet Kobe. Had Kobe put up the numbers Harden did, people would have been saying that this was the end for Kobe. Harden got a lot of preferential treatment from the refs last year in terms of getting to the line. More than any other player in the league IMO. Even with all that help he still wasn't in Kobe's league. As for Wall. Come on now... don't make me laugh. Melo still hasn't shown me enough to say he is better than Kobe... He had a good streak there for a minute, but still didn't come through in the playoffs. CP3 is the only one who you have a claim on and even he hasn't proven anything in the playoffs that have made him live up to his own hype IMO. Winners are born in the playoffs and under the most dire of circumstances... All you have mentioned have not proven jack **** yet. Please don't insult Kobe by bringing up his name with the likes of guys like Wall, Rose, Harden, Curry, and Melo. It's just downright insulting and makes you look like your basketball knowledge is sorely lacking.

amos1er
08-06-2013, 04:15 PM
Thats why i hardly post anything in here. Most threads go full-****** as soon as someone mentions Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Rose, Durant .. etc.

Haha... Ya they do.

amos1er
08-06-2013, 04:16 PM
Melo and Westbrook better then Kobe last year? Lol nope cp3 is a toss up only lebron and Durant were better

Ya, these guys are pretty ridiculous sometimes.

MLB2K10King
08-06-2013, 04:20 PM
I find myself unable to answer the question. This article blames Kobe's "Diva Behaviour" for the loss of Dwight, and say's it affected Paul Gasol, even though Kobe has been nothing but supportive of him. Then it portrays the Achilies rupture as if its something Kobe did on purpose to hurt the team. I couldn't get through the rest of the piece because from that lone I felt like this wasn't being written from a fair perspective. Harden is great, but I don't think he's the best shooting guard in the league yet. Last season showed that Kobe is still Pound for Pound top five player in the league, we can't say the same for harden. Not yet at least

amos1er
08-06-2013, 04:21 PM
I find myself unable to answer the question. This article blames Kobe's "Diva Behaviour" for the loss of Dwight, and say's it affected Paul Gasol, even though Kobe has been nothing but supportive of him. Then it portrays the Achilies rupture as if its something Kobe did on purpose to hurt the team. I couldn't get through the rest of the piece because from that lone I felt like this wasn't being written from a fair perspective. Harden is great, but I don't think he's the best shooting guard in the league yet. Last season showed that Kobe is still Pound for Pound top five player in the league, we can't say the same for harden. Not yet at least

Word.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 04:24 PM
I havent even read the article.

LakeShowRaider
08-06-2013, 04:31 PM
http://youtu.be/QStx8GklKQg

you were saying?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 04:33 PM
No, to the context of the discussion. The one YOU attempted to jump in on. We are discussing what PSD has thought over the years, thus, PSD is the relevant factor. Its ok to admit your wrong bro, we can all see it.


To you.PSD's opinion being relevant is only your opinion. Good day.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 04:42 PM
PSD's opinion being relevant is only your opinion. Good day.

you still dont get it man.... what is wrong with you?

Its not opinion, its a fact. The argument at hand was dealing with the consensus of PSD.

Here let me show you the post that started this.


Hardly. The only ones who tried to make arguments in favor of Wade over Kobe were limited to the most homeristic of fanboys this site has ever seen. The general consensus was that Wade was never really in the discussion except for a few random seasons where even then the vast majority would scoffed at such a notion.

You see, the subject matter is PSD CONSENSUS.

So tell me, if PSD isn't what counts when it comes to establishing its zeitgeist, what is? Who gets to decide what PSD thinks? You? Your friends?


Speaking of your friends, notice how your boo isn't +1 you on this one. We were talking about PSD, then you jumped in and stumbled.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 04:46 PM
I'd add Melo, CP3 and Westbrook to that list

Harden is a toss-up but I'll give the nod to Kobe because of Harden's lack of longevity.

I fail to see where any of those three had a better season than Kobe. Carmelo is close, but Kobe was a top 3 player at the end of the season. Post all star brake Kobe was by far the better player out of the four if you add in everything he did by seasons end.



I find myself unable to answer the question. This article blames Kobe's "Diva Behaviour" for the loss of Dwight, and say's it affected Paul Gasol, even though Kobe has been nothing but supportive of him. Then it portrays the Achilies rupture as if its something Kobe did on purpose to hurt the team. I couldn't get through the rest of the piece because from that lone I felt like this wasn't being written from a fair perspective. Harden is great, but I don't think he's the best shooting guard in the league yet. Last season showed that Kobe is still Pound for Pound top five player in the league, we can't say the same for harden. Not yet at least
Precisely.

RLundi
08-06-2013, 04:56 PM
I fail to see where any of those three had a better season than Kobe. Carmelo is close, but Kobe was a top 3 player at the end of the season. Post all star brake Kobe was by far the better player out of the four if you add in everything he did by seasons end.



Precisely.

I disagree but regardless, what have you got to prove that point?

Westbrook and CP3 had more win shares than Kobe and had much better teams. Melo had less win shares but he was more efficient and had a better team. Harden had more win shares and better efficiency but the only reason I won't give him the nod just yet is because he's only done this for a season so I can't be too sure.

What kind of evidence can you present besides being an inherently biased Lakers fan?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 04:56 PM
you still dont get it man.... what is wrong with you?

Its not opinion, its a fact. The argument at hand was dealing with the consensus of PSD.

Here let me show you the post that started this.



You see, the subject matter is PSD CONSENSUS.

So tell me, if PSD isn't what counts when it comes to establishing its zeitgeist, what is? Who gets to decide what PSD thinks? You? Your friends?


Speaking of your friends, notice how your boo isn't +1 you on this one. We were talking about PSD, then you jumped in and stumbled.

No you don't get it FC, How does the consensus of PSD make anything fact?

Amos1er is talking about the consensus of the real world, not this laughable website that's filled with egotistical college graduates that think they're better than everyone. He was merely pointing out what a joke PSD is, and how you guys rank stars way above their actual positions in the basketball world. You're a superstar to these kids here on PSD, so I can see why you think your opinion is always right.

RLundi
08-06-2013, 04:58 PM
Speaking of your friends, notice how your boo isn't +1 you on this one. We were talking about PSD, then you jumped in and stumbled.

:laugh2:

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 05:04 PM
I disagree but regardless, what have you got to prove that point?

Westbrook and CP3 had more win shares than Kobe and had much better teams. Melo had less win shares but he was more efficient and had a better team. Harden had more win shares and better efficiency but the only reason I won't give him the nod just yet is because he's only done this for a season so I can't be too sure.

What kind of evidence can you present besides being an inherently biased Lakers fan?

They're better because they had more win shares? What does having better teams have to do with who's the better player? Kobe stats speak for them self, He also had multiple games that he won single handedly and had the drag our sorry *** team into the playoffs virtually by him self.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 05:20 PM
No you don't get it FC, How does the consensus of PSD make anything fact?
Because PSD gets to speak for itself. You only speak for yourself.


Amos1er is talking about the consensus of the real world, not this laughable website that's filled with egotistical college graduates that think they're better than everyone. He was merely pointing out what a joke PSD is, and how you guys rank stars way above their actual positions in the basketball world. You're a superstar to these kids here on PSD, so I can see why you think your opinion is always right.
Dont speak on his behalf. I highly doubt hes dumb enough to repeat your mistake.

Heres the post that precipitated his response:


So PSD now says Wade is better than Kobe??


Get it yet?

Chronz
08-06-2013, 05:29 PM
:laugh2:
He and the other guy are definitely buds, but its clear which one of them is bottom shelf.

Look below ....


They're better because they had more win shares? What does having better teams have to do with who's the better player? Kobe stats speak for them self(ve?), He also had multiple games that he won single handedly and had the drag our sorry *** team into the playoffs virtually by him self.

Does not understand stats.... speaks on stats behalf.... just like doesn't understand context of argument, jumps in anyways....

3RDASYSTEM
08-06-2013, 05:34 PM
I fail to see where any of those three had a better season than Kobe. Carmelo is close, but Kobe was a top 3 player at the end of the season. Post all star brake Kobe was by far the better player out of the four if you add in everything he did by seasons end.





Precisely.

what year did the backupguard become a top 3 player since you stated he was at the end of his 17th season

get off the dust and off the backup nutsack

would you really be dick riding had he joined HORNETS and not lakerland? I severely doubt it

I look at him the same, you go off market and comparing to other players accomplishments but none of the best 10-20 players were ever backups entering the league, even KG took over starting duties his rookie year mid season straight out of HS, and don't bring up he was a guard because its a lot tougher to player interior out of HS than perimeter

why wasn't bean a top 3 player his rookie year? or 2nd or 3rd or 4th? I get it he magically waited until 03', that lucky number 7

3RDASYSTEM
08-06-2013, 05:39 PM
They're better because they had more win shares? What does having better teams have to do with who's the better player? Kobe stats speak for them self, He also had multiple games that he won single handedly and had the drag our sorry *** team into the playoffs virtually by him self.


his stats been speaking for him to me

its what I rank him off of, not when he starts fulltime, bean stats have been speaking to me since 96'-97' season

its why I laugh when you claim he is the best(most decorated indeed)player of past decade, now I wouldn't have if he really did go no1 pick overall in 00' draft, but I have to admit he is the luckiest player of alltime

but based on media reports, he is one of the 'top' players of the decade, he even had 2yrs out of the decade to me as a claim to best player in the league, see 06' and 08' seasons, his 10 and 12th years in the league

amazing grace

here me out

he got drafted with last lottery pick 13th and traded from a lottery to instant rich nba tradition lakers

and then it took that 13th pick 7yrs(2003) to make a claim as the best player

lucky numbers of 13 and 7, damn it feels good to be a laker(laser)

This is why you fiens are the biggest fiens ever, you guys always say me and others say loony crazy things but you guys set the bar and exceed it all in one bang

ARTEST said get ready for 73-9 and all you guys maybe didn't fully agree to that many wins but damn 60wins was in the bag right?

now bean had to drag this ****** team in the playoffs? made ****** by him because he told DWIGHT to be CHANDLER, told PAU to pull up his big boy pants and be the black or whatever swan, then he endorsed MIKE D only to freeze out the 2x nba mvp(stole one of beans awards also) by taking his job and the media fell for it and called him magic Bryant or something like that, made ****** by him even earlier by feeling he was equal to SHAQ or this fašade alpha male

what backupguard does that type of madness? only in lakerland

im a alpha male because I was HSPOY and I shouldn't have to sit on the bench, wait until I get the fulltime job then I will make everybody pay because I got drafted by la, they come via trades and free agency,until then i'll start on the allstar team to **** on'em even more - vino bean bryant

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 05:41 PM
Because PSD gets to speak for itself. You only speak for yourself.


Dont speak on his behalf. I highly doubt hes dumb enough to repeat your mistake.

Heres the post that precipitated his response:




Get it yet?

I get your dumb point, but you fail to see mine because you're to busy giving yourself a rim job.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 05:42 PM
He and the other guy are definitely buds, but its clear which one of them is bottom shelf.

Look below ....



Does not understand stats.... speaks on stats behalf.... just like doesn't understand context of argument, jumps in anyways....

Only the great and power FC can understand stats, I forgot. Get over yourself.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 05:51 PM
I get your dumb point, but you fail to see mine because you're to busy giving yourself a rim job.

I knew the point you were trying to make from the beginning. Thing is, nobody cares.

Chronz
08-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Only the great and power FC can understand stats, I forgot. Get over yourself.
Says who?

Chronz
08-06-2013, 05:53 PM
his stats been speaking for him to me

its what I rank him off of, not when he starts fulltime, bean stats have been speaking to me since 96'-97' season

its why I laugh when you claim he is the best(most decorated indeed)player of past decade, now I wouldn't have if he really did go no1 pick overall in 00' draft, but I have to admit he is the luckiest player of alltime

but based on media reports, he is one of the 'top' players of the decade, he even had 2yrs out of the decade to me as a claim to best player in the league, see 06' and 08' seasons, his 10 and 12th years in the league

amazing grace

here me out

he got drafted with last lottery pick 13th and traded from a lottery to instant rich nba tradition lakers

and then it took that 13th pick 7yrs(2003) to make a claim as the best player

lucky numbers of 13 and 7, damn it feels good to be a laker(laser)

This is why you fiens are the biggest fiens ever, you guys always say me and others say loony crazy things but you guys set the bar and exceed it all in one bang

ARTEST said get ready for 73-9 and all you guys maybe didn't fully agree to that many wins but damn 60wins was in the bag right?

now bean had to drag this ****** team in the playoffs? made ****** by him because he told DWIGHT to be CHANDLER, told PAU to pull up his big boy pants and be the black or whatever swan, then he endorsed MIKE D only to freeze out the 2x nba mvp(stole one of beans awards also) by taking his job and the media fell for it and called him magic Bryant or something like that, made ****** by him even earlier by feeling he was equal to SHAQ or this fašade alpha male

what backupguard does that type of madness? only in lakerland

im a alpha male because I was HSPOY and I shouldn't have to sit on the bench, wait until I get the fulltime job then I will make everybody pay because I got drafted by la, they come via trades and free agency,until then i'll start on the allstar team to **** on'em even more - vino bean bryant

Is Karl Malone one of the greatest PF's ever?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 05:59 PM
Says who?

The Great and Powerful FC himself.

RLundi
08-06-2013, 06:06 PM
They're better because they had more win shares? What does having better teams have to do with who's the better player? Kobe stats speak for them self, He also had multiple games that he won single handedly and had the drag our sorry *** team into the playoffs virtually by him self.

What would you use to assert someone is a better player than another besides your own subjectivity? I think win shares is a good starting point, though not the only thing at all. What have you got?

Melo dragged the Knicks into the playoffs, what's your point? As did Harden.

This is why your arguments never hold any weight: you have nothing to back them up. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you're so unbelievably biased without offering any kind of evidence or justification for your opinion? Come on man.

hidalgo
08-06-2013, 06:22 PM
how come you Kobe homers always cry about Wade's 97 FTA in the 2006 finals (16.2 per game), when Kobe had the same thing happen just about against Utah in 2008, 96 FTA 16.0 FT per game, 6 game series like Wade's.

they both got babied really nice for a 6 game series

el hidalgo
08-06-2013, 06:27 PM
how come you Kobe homers always cry about Wade's 97 FTA in the 2006 finals (16.2 per game), when Kobe had the same thing happen just about against Utah in 2008, 96 FTA 16.0 FT per game, 6 game series like Wade's.

they both got babied really nice for a 6 game series
It's a quick and easy way to diminish his championship

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 06:28 PM
What would you use to assert someone is a better player than another besides your own subjectivity? I think win shares is a good starting point, though not the only thing at all. What have you got?

Melo dragged the Knicks into the playoffs, what's your point? As did Harden.

This is why your arguments never hold any weight: you have nothing to back them up. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you're so unbelievably biased without offering any kind of evidence or justification for your opinion? Come on man.

Melo had more help than Kobe, so he didn't drag them into the playoffs.
How about 27/6/6 for starters? How about the 4 game winners this year from Kobe, or the countless other games he saved us from losing? How about how he put them in position to steal the 7th seed from Hardens Rockets while Hardens stats fell apart during that time? How about Kobe having to play point guard to end the year because Nash wasn't able to, putting over 7.5 assists per game during this stretch. No one besides Lebron and Maybe Durant played as well as kobe post all star brake.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 06:30 PM
how come you Kobe homers always cry about Wade's 97 FTA in the 2006 finals (16.2 per game), when Kobe had the same thing happen just about against Utah in 2008, 96 FTA 16.0 FT per game, 6 game series like Wade's.

they both got babied really nice for a 6 game series

If you watched that series, you would clearly see Kobe tearing that defense apart. No one ever questioned the calls from the refs like they do Wades.

Matter.
08-06-2013, 06:34 PM
Reasons why i do not post in Kobe/LeBron threads... :eyebrow:

L8kers4life
08-06-2013, 07:15 PM
his stats been speaking for him to me

its what I rank him off of, not when he starts fulltime, bean stats have been speaking to me since 96'-97' season

its why I laugh when you claim he is the best(most decorated indeed)player of past decade, now I wouldn't have if he really did go no1 pick overall in 00' draft, but I have to admit he is the luckiest player of alltime

but based on media reports, he is one of the 'top' players of the decade, he even had 2yrs out of the decade to me as a claim to best player in the league, see 06' and 08' seasons, his 10 and 12th years in the league

amazing grace

here me out

he got drafted with last lottery pick 13th and traded from a lottery to instant rich nba tradition lakers

and then it took that 13th pick 7yrs(2003) to make a claim as the best player

lucky numbers of 13 and 7, damn it feels good to be a laker(laser)

This is why you fiens are the biggest fiens ever, you guys always say me and others say loony crazy things but you guys set the bar and exceed it all in one bang

ARTEST said get ready for 73-9 and all you guys maybe didn't fully agree to that many wins but damn 60wins was in the bag right?

now bean had to drag this ****** team in the playoffs? made ****** by him because he told DWIGHT to be CHANDLER, told PAU to pull up his big boy pants and be the black or whatever swan, then he endorsed MIKE D only to freeze out the 2x nba mvp(stole one of beans awards also) by taking his job and the media fell for it and called him magic Bryant or something like that, made ****** by him even earlier by feeling he was equal to SHAQ or this fašade alpha male

what backupguard does that type of madness? only in lakerland

im a alpha male because I was HSPOY and I shouldn't have to sit on the bench, wait until I get the fulltime job then I will make everybody pay because I got drafted by la, they come via trades and free agency,until then i'll start on the allstar team to **** on'em even more - vino bean bryant

Holy ****, this is the worst post I have ever seen, are you serious? Question, you refer to kobe as backupguard or are you referring to Harden, I don't even like Kobe, but this post is a joke. How old are you kid? For what its worth you don't know a thing about basketball, kobe was 17 when he came into the league, if he actually went to a team like Charllotte or Cleveland he would have started, kobe backed up Eddie Jones his first year but by his 2ndfinals in 00-01 he averaged 29, 7 and 5, and he was the best shooting guard from 99 till present, and the best in the league from 04 to 10.what ever your smoking just stop, your post is absurd!

OceanSpray
08-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Holy ****, this is the worst post I have ever seen, are you serious? Question, you refer to kobe as backupguard or are you referring to Harden, I don't even like Kobe, but this post is a joke. How old are you kid? For what its worth you don't know a thing about basketball, kobe was 17 when he came into the league, if he actually went to a team like Charllotte or Cleveland he would have started, kobe backed up Eddie Jones his first year but by his 2ndfinals in 00-01 he averaged 29, 7 and 5, and he was the best shooting guard from 99 till present, and the best in the league from 04 to 10.what ever your smoking just stop, your post is absurd!

Kobe wasn't the best from 04-10. Only idiots who don't use facts think so. LeBron has been better than Kobe for nearly 6+ years. Also, 08-09, Wade was clearly the best SG.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 07:22 PM
Kobe wasn't the best from 04-10. Only idiots who don't use facts think so. LeBron has been better than Kobe for nearly 6+ years. Also, 08-09, Wade was clearly the best SG.

even though Kobe wasn't the best in 2010, saying Lebron has been the best player in the league since 2006 is more laughable. 08-09 were very close. Kobe did win a ring that year I might add.

L8kers4life
08-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Kobe wasn't the best from 04-10. Only idiots who don't use facts think so. LeBron has been better than Kobe for nearly 6+ years. Also, 08-09, Wade was clearly the best SG.
\I will give you 1 year Wade was better, thats it, but to say Lebron was the best during that time is false. Lebron was best young star with the most upside and on his way to being the best. Your opinion is Lebron was better, but stats and championships say other wise. And dont call me an idiot you punk, who are you, this is my opinion, the fact that you are so certain just tells me your the idiot.

L8kers4life
08-06-2013, 07:32 PM
Kobe wasn't the best from 04-10. Only idiots who don't use facts think so. LeBron has been better than Kobe for nearly 6+ years. Also, 08-09, Wade was clearly the best SG.

And to my point, I was trying to say Kobe was the best shooting guard in the league from 00-12, with wade having 1 year better. You dont believe me, go see who was all NBA at shooting guard from 00-12. Or look at the stats. I agree Lebron is the best player in the league now, but to say he was the best player for 6 years, that is far fetched, Lebron is still 2-2 in the finals and it could have been 1-3 if it wern't for extreme fortune

tredigs
08-06-2013, 07:34 PM
even though Kobe wasn't the best in 2010, saying Lebron has been the best player in the league since 2006 is more laughable. 08-09 were very close. Kobe did win a ring that year I might add.

He said since nearly 07/08 (6 years), which is about right. Lebron was WAY better from 08 forward as an all around player, in 06 it was close. Kobe scored a lot, so that's always fun.

08/09 Cp3, Lebron, Dwight and Wade were all clearly better.

And Pau's impact for them in winning the back to back is laughably underrated, without him they're not sniffing the finals let alone winning it. Lamar was also a beast.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2013, 07:49 PM
Kobe/LeBron threads are like a car wreck on this site.

hidalgo
08-06-2013, 07:50 PM
And to my point, I was trying to say Kobe was the best shooting guard in the league from 00-12, with wade having 1 year better. You dont believe me, go see who was all NBA at shooting guard from 00-12. Or look at the stats. I agree Lebron is the best player in the league now, but to say he was the best player for 6 years, that is far fetched, Lebron is still 2-2 in the finals and it could have been 1-3 if it wern't for extreme fortuneyou gotta give Wade 2006 as well as 2009 over Kobe. 2006 he won the championship, & had a Jordan worthy type of playoff run, & an epic MJ type finals that Kobe has never had. Kobe just went bananas in the regular season & hogged the ball, & won 45 games, & blew a 3-1 lead to PHX(where was his billion points scoring outburst when they needed it in the playoffs?). easily that year goes to Wade

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 08:23 PM
He said since nearly 07/08 (6 years), which is about right. Lebron was WAY better from 08 forward as an all around player, in 06 it was close. Kobe scored a lot, so that's always fun.

08/09 Cp3, Lebron, Dwight and Wade were all clearly better.

And Pau's impact for them in winning the back to back is laughably underrated, without him they're not sniffing the finals let alone winning it. Lamar was also a beast.

He said 6+ years. Kobe had Pau. Lebron has Wade, Bosh, and the best all round team in the nba by far.

tredigs
08-06-2013, 08:31 PM
He said 6+ years. Kobe had Pau. Lebron has Wade, Bosh, and the best all round team in the nba by far.
Well, he said "nearly 6+ years", whatever that means. I took it as 6 years, but take 7 if you want and Lebron still beats him.

And Odom? An ultra versatile double double forward who can pass and kept motion to their offense. We're going to overlook that entirely over the play we saw from Wade and Bosh this post-season? Not to mention a young 7 footer in Bynum who despite not having the impact he did a couple years later, was still a presence in the paint when he was in.

He had a **** load of "help", Pau was literally just as important to their success as he was.

amos1er
08-06-2013, 08:47 PM
how come you Kobe homers always cry about Wade's 97 FTA in the 2006 finals (16.2 per game), when Kobe had the same thing happen just about against Utah in 2008, 96 FTA 16.0 FT per game, 6 game series like Wade's.

they both got babied really nice for a 6 game series

Terrible example.

Wade actually averaged 19 per game in the final four games of the series... You know, the ones Miami won, which were all decided by 3 points or less. The 2008 Utah series was hardly that close in point disparity, nor did Kobe average 19 per game in the games the Lakers won... Nor was it the freakin NBA FINALS!

Kobe also did not get a last second BS phantom foul call that essentially handed the Lakers the game (and the series) with less than 5 second left with the series tied at 2 games a piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

There's more than enough evidence to question it, but there is a reason why so many people say it was rigged. The officiating obviously wasn't fair and facts are facts.

Jackson said while Cuban has toned down over the years, he believes the outspoken owner's criticism of referees might have cost the Mavericks the 2006 NBA Finals against Dwyane Wade and the Miami Heat.

Phil's words:
"That Miami Finals really was a tough one to swallow," Jackson said before the Lakers won 96-91 on Saturday night in Dallas. "I think Wade averaged about 25 foul shots a game. You couldn't even touch him. That was really tough to swallow and I think he understood there's kind of a pecking order in this league and you keep your mouth shut at times.''


By pecking order, Jackson meant coaches can bark at officials from the sideline, but ownership sniping from the courtside seats doesn't help the cause.
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/new…

Tim Dohnagy flat out states he used the anti-cuban biased to place bets against the Mavs in the 2006 finals because he knew what was up
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks…

Tim Dohnagy:
“I think there was numerous games,” Donaghy said. “Obviously Mark was very outspoken in regard to the referees. Referees have personal vendettas that they take out on certain players, coaches and owners. Mark was certainly one of those people.”

Donaghy claimed that Danny Crawford bragged that the Mavericks rarely won playoff games that he officiated, information Donaghy used to place bets against the Mavs. The Mavs have lost 15 of their last 16 playoffs game that Crawford worked.

If Donaghy can be believed, there were two major officiating factors in the controversial Finals collapse that was fueled by Dwyane Wade free throws. He said referees are trained to favor teams that are down in playoff series. And then there’s the anti-Cuban bias.

“It had been told to me behind the scenes that they were actually happy in the NBA office when Dallas was knocked out from the playoffs,” Donaghy said, “because it was less complaints from Mark, it was less e-mails from Mark and it was less work that they had to do.”

82games.com sums up the calls in the 2006 finals and estimates what calls were dubious or not
http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

Facts, evidence, and my own two eyes.

Remember game 5? Wade drives and they blow a whistle on Dirk with few seconds left? No foul was commited and that was a crucial play.
__________________

Look at it from the front angle. It was air space between the two. Also obviously Avery wanted a TO after the FT. What coach would call their last time out while someone is on the FT line? The refs know that too. But they clearly wasn't fair with that.
_______________________________

The late foul in GAME 5? You saw that one? I watched sounds of the finals and they showed the front view of that foul and it was Dirk that was called for the foul and there was air space between the two. Watch sounds of the finals 06 on NBA tv and you will see. So you're saying a coach will want to use their last TO when someone is on the FT line? Clearly not. He wanted it after the FT. Coaches tell the refs that all the time. If the refereeing was fair there would not have been any misunderstanding with that. The series was rigged.

http://www.ericfolkerth.com/wheneftalks/files/archive-19.html

amos1er
08-06-2013, 08:55 PM
Well, he said "nearly 6+ years", whatever that means. I took it as 6 years, but take 7 if you want and Lebron still beats him.

And Odom? An ultra versatile double double forward who can pass and kept motion to their offense. We're going to overlook that entirely over the play we saw from Wade and Bosh this post-season? Not to mention a young 7 footer in Bynum who despite not having the impact he did a couple years later, was still a presence in the paint when he was in.

He had a **** load of "help", Pau was literally just as important to their success as he was.

Kobe beat far greater opponents with far less help than Lebron did.

Care to respond to this post of mine from a few weeks back...

To put Lebron in the same conversation as Jordan is blasphemous. Jordan never lost in the finals and never needed to form a super team consisting of a top five player and a top fifteen player along with 5 guys who could shoot over 40% from three just to beat some of the weakest competition in NBA history in the east and some mediocre competition in the finals. All with questionable calls the whole way through. You are only as great as your competition and Lebron hasn't really had all that much compared to greats like Jordan and Kobe. Especially considering the super team he constructed when he went ring chasing.

Lebrons advanced stats are more due to the system he runs than him being a great individual player. Nash did the same thing when playing for D'Antoni in a specialized system taylor made to augment his strengths. Nash put up his best statistical seasons when running this unique system, but when playing in a slow down traditional half court offense, he was not nearly the same player statistically. You are all kidding yourselves if you think Lebron could put up the same PER and advanced stats running the triangle with a legit rebounding center. Lebron may lead the Heat in rebounding, but the Heat as a team are last in the league in rebounding. Not impressive at all. Lebron barely made it past the Spurs even with HCA. Lucky for him he was able to coast to HCA throughout the playoffs due to his cakewalk of a regular season schedule in the weak east with by far the best supporting cast in the NBA. Put the Heat in the west and the Spurs in the east and the Spurs would easily have HCA in the finals and would have most likely dispatched the Heat in six games. Kobe performed much better individually and only needed 5 games to defeat a better younger Spurs team in the 2008 WCF with a lesser supporting cast than Lebron had in this years finals. Lets rewind to 2001 and see how Kobe did against San Antonio's twin towers back when Duncan was having one of his best seasons and compare it to Lebron's performance in this years finals against a broken down aged Spurs team. That ought to be good for a laugh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...13_finals.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._2008_WCF.html

What do you think about the difference in numbers that Kobe put up against younger better Spurs teams on road to success with weaker supporting casts than Lebron had?

2008 WCF

A prime Kobe with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron's 2013 Heat against a younger tougher Spurs team...

Kobe 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 90.9 FT%, 33.3 3PT%, 53.3 FG%. Most importantly...won the series in 5 games with his second best player in Gasol only contributing 13.2 ppg and his third option Odom only contributing 12.8 ppg.

2013 Finals

A prime Lebron vs. a much older Spurs and weaker Spurs team than Kobe played back in the 2008 WCF...

25.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 79.5 FT%, 35.3 3PT%, 44.7 FG%. Barely won by the skin of their teeth in 7 games. Lebron received more help all around from his supporting cast as well. His second option Wade contributed 19.6 ppg and his third option Bosh contributed 11.9 ppg. Both shot significantly better from the field as well. Wade 47.6 FG% and Bosh 46.2 FG% compared to Gasol 44.6 FG% and Odom 40.4 FG%. Clearly Lebron's big three are in a whole other universe that what Kobe had to work with.

In addition, his fourth and fifth options in Allen and Chalmers also produced more than Kobe's fourth and fifth options in Farmar and Radmanovic. Both Allen and Chalmers contributed double figure scoring. Allen with 10.6 ppg on 54% from the field and from 3 and Chalmers with 10.6 ppg on 39% from the field, but 40.6% from 3. In 2008 Farmar (Kobe's fourth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 45.7% from the field and 41.7% from 3. Radmanovic (fifth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 63.3% from the field, but only 27.3% from 3. Clearly Kobe outperformed Lebron with far less help against a better version of the same team.

And please don't throw in Lebron's empty rebounding and assist numbers because as I said earlier, they are a product of the system he runs and the players he choses to surround himself with. In 2008 Kobe had two guys in Gasol and Odom who both averaged 9.6 rpg in the WCF. Thus there are less rebounds for Kobe to grab, but his team is better off clearly. Lebron may lead the Heat in rebounding, but thats mainly due to the fact that there are no real rebounders on his team and who cares anyways because the Heat are last in the NBA in rebounding. It's not too impressive when you can put up the best rebounding stats on a team that is last in the NBA...talk about not sacrificing personal glory for the good of the team.

As for the assists, Kobe played in the triangle which is not assist friendly at all, but is better for winning games and getting all around passing from the team. Lebron plays a pg on offense which is more designed as a iso drive and kick to his many 3 point snippers. Pretty easy to rack up assists when you have 5 guys on your team who can shoot over 40% from three and the system is designed to boost your stats. A luxury Kobe or MJ never had. Lebron in the triangle would not be able to produce those kind of assist numbers...especially without his 3 point snippers.

There you have it, the proof is in the pudding. Kobe would have won the title that year and had six rings had he been lucky enough to face the Spurs in the finals like Lebron did. Unfortunately, he had to face a far better team in the Celtics. The likes of which Lebron has never faced. Sorry, but it's all about how you do against the top competition, not about how you pad your stats in the regular season against the weaker teams in the weakest conference of all time. Kobe clearly performed better when the stakes were up against the better competition. That is the true measure of greatness.

amos1er
08-06-2013, 08:57 PM
He said since nearly 07/08 (6 years), which is about right. Lebron was WAY better from 08 forward as an all around player, in 06 it was close. Kobe scored a lot, so that's always fun.

08/09 Cp3, Lebron, Dwight and Wade were all clearly better.

And Pau's impact for them in winning the back to back is laughably underrated, without him they're not sniffing the finals let alone winning it. Lamar was also a beast.

In 2009 Lebron James himself said Kobe was the best in the NBA. How can you argue with the very guy your trying to compare Kobe against?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Well, he said "nearly 6+ years", whatever that means. I took it as 6 years, but take 7 if you want and Lebron still beats him.

And Odom? An ultra versatile double double forward who can pass and kept motion to their offense. We're going to overlook that entirely over the play we saw from Wade and Bosh this post-season? Not to mention a young 7 footer in Bynum who despite not having the impact he did a couple years later, was still a presence in the paint when he was in.

He had a **** load of "help", Pau was literally just as important to their success as he was.

Sorry,but LeBron has not been the best player in the league for 7 years. Not even close. You're making Odom seem way better than he was. He was a system player. Bynum was absolutely atrocious in the playoffs from 08-10 idk what your looking at. Are you not going to mention the Heat having to deadliest 3 point shooting role players of all time? Or how Wade and Bosh are the best 2nd and 3rd option paring in nba history? Give me a brake. Lebron has twice the help Kobe did for his back to back rings.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-06-2013, 09:00 PM
Kobe beat far greater opponents with far less help than Lebron did.

Care to respond to this post of mine from a few weeks back...

To put Lebron in the same conversation as Jordan is blasphemous. Jordan never lost in the finals and never needed to form a super team consisting of a top five player and a top fifteen player along with 5 guys who could shoot over 40% from three just to beat some of the weakest competition in NBA history in the east and some mediocre competition in the finals. All with questionable calls the whole way through. You are only as great as your competition and Lebron hasn't really had all that much compared to greats like Jordan and Kobe. Especially considering the super team he constructed when he went ring chasing.

Lebrons advanced stats are more due to the system he runs than him being a great individual player. Nash did the same thing when playing for D'Antoni in a specialized system taylor made to augment his strengths. Nash put up his best statistical seasons when running this unique system, but when playing in a slow down traditional half court offense, he was not nearly the same player statistically. You are all kidding yourselves if you think Lebron could put up the same PER and advanced stats running the triangle with a legit rebounding center. Lebron may lead the Heat in rebounding, but the Heat as a team are last in the league in rebounding. Not impressive at all. Lebron barely made it past the Spurs even with HCA. Lucky for him he was able to coast to HCA throughout the playoffs due to his cakewalk of a regular season schedule in the weak east with by far the best supporting cast in the NBA. Put the Heat in the west and the Spurs in the east and the Spurs would easily have HCA in the finals and would have most likely dispatched the Heat in six games. Kobe performed much better individually and only needed 5 games to defeat a better younger Spurs team in the 2008 WCF with a lesser supporting cast than Lebron had in this years finals. Lets rewind to 2001 and see how Kobe did against San Antonio's twin towers back when Duncan was having one of his best seasons and compare it to Lebron's performance in this years finals against a broken down aged Spurs team. That ought to be good for a laugh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...13_finals.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._2008_WCF.html

What do you think about the difference in numbers that Kobe put up against younger better Spurs teams on road to success with weaker supporting casts than Lebron had?

2008 WCF

A prime Kobe with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron's 2013 Heat against a younger tougher Spurs team...

Kobe 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 90.9 FT%, 33.3 3PT%, 53.3 FG%. Most importantly...won the series in 5 games with his second best player in Gasol only contributing 13.2 ppg and his third option Odom only contributing 12.8 ppg.

2013 Finals

A prime Lebron vs. a much older Spurs and weaker Spurs team than Kobe played back in the 2008 WCF...

25.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 79.5 FT%, 35.3 3PT%, 44.7 FG%. Barely won by the skin of their teeth in 7 games. Lebron received more help all around from his supporting cast as well. His second option Wade contributed 19.6 ppg and his third option Bosh contributed 11.9 ppg. Both shot significantly better from the field as well. Wade 47.6 FG% and Bosh 46.2 FG% compared to Gasol 44.6 FG% and Odom 40.4 FG%. Clearly Lebron's big three are in a whole other universe that what Kobe had to work with.

In addition, his fourth and fifth options in Allen and Chalmers also produced more than Kobe's fourth and fifth options in Farmar and Radmanovic. Both Allen and Chalmers contributed double figure scoring. Allen with 10.6 ppg on 54% from the field and from 3 and Chalmers with 10.6 ppg on 39% from the field, but 40.6% from 3. In 2008 Farmar (Kobe's fourth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 45.7% from the field and 41.7% from 3. Radmanovic (fifth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 63.3% from the field, but only 27.3% from 3. Clearly Kobe outperformed Lebron with far less help against a better version of the same team.

And please don't throw in Lebron's empty rebounding and assist numbers because as I said earlier, they are a product of the system he runs and the players he choses to surround himself with. In 2008 Kobe had two guys in Gasol and Odom who both averaged 9.6 rpg in the WCF. Thus there are less rebounds for Kobe to grab, but his team is better off clearly. Lebron may lead the Heat in rebounding, but thats mainly due to the fact that there are no real rebounders on his team and who cares anyways because the Heat are last in the NBA in rebounding. It's not too impressive when you can put up the best rebounding stats on a team that is last in the NBA...talk about not sacrificing personal glory for the good of the team.

As for the assists, Kobe played in the triangle which is not assist friendly at all, but is better for winning games and getting all around passing from the team. Lebron plays a pg on offense which is more designed as a iso drive and kick to his many 3 point snippers. Pretty easy to rack up assists when you have 5 guys on your team who can shoot over 40% from three and the system is designed to boost your stats. A luxury Kobe or MJ never had. Lebron in the triangle would not be able to produce those kind of assist numbers...especially without his 3 point snippers.

There you have it, the proof is in the pudding. Kobe would have won the title that year and had six rings had he been lucky enough to face the Spurs in the finals like Lebron did. Unfortunately, he had to face a far better team in the Celtics. The likes of which Lebron has never faced. Sorry, but it's all about how you do against the top competition, not about how you pad your stats in the regular season against the weaker teams in the weakest conference of all time. Kobe clearly performed better when the stakes were up against the better competition. That is the true measure of greatness.


In 2009 Lebron James himself said Kobe was the best in the NBA. How can you argue with the very guy your trying to compare Kobe against?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

Zing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!