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tony james
07-29-2013, 03:37 AM
....

WadeKobe
07-29-2013, 06:27 AM
When LeBron hangs them up, the answer will be, IMO, in no order:

Magic
Michael
Lebron
Larry
Wilt

BklynKnicks3
07-29-2013, 09:40 AM
Lebron lol

Jordan
bird
kobe
magic
Kareem

stawka
07-29-2013, 09:43 AM
Will be MJ/MJ/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt

FraziersKnicks
07-29-2013, 10:13 AM
Lebron lol

Jordan
bird
kobe
magic
Kareem

Kobe lol

boboo73
07-29-2013, 10:52 AM
Magic
MJ
Larry
Oscar
Wilt

diu9leilomo
07-29-2013, 11:03 AM
MJ
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Magic

BklynKnicks3
07-29-2013, 11:33 AM
someone lol'd kobe being top 5 smh.

Tony_Starks
07-29-2013, 11:56 AM
someone lol'd kobe being top 5 smh.


I know right? But they'll put Lebron at 3 with 2 rings. Psd at its finest!

Tony_Starks
07-29-2013, 12:01 PM
Magic
MJ
Kareem
Kobe
Bird

3RDASYSTEM
07-29-2013, 01:00 PM
I know right? But they'll put Lebron at 3 with 2 rings. Psd at its finest!

Stop confusing people with that dumb ring talk

game is game

its why BRON doesn't need 2 nor 10 rings

its the reason why dumb *** bean fiens put him in top 5-10 because of the dumb *** ring talk

see how that **** work, just leave it out because its ******** and taints a players game-impact, it doesn't enhance it

BRON lost in 11' and won back to back, you think he dropped off as a individual player then elevated himself with back to back wins? he looked the same to me as a player, since 04'

3RDASYSTEM
07-29-2013, 01:01 PM
Magic
MJ
Kareem
Kobe
Bird

no backup player should be in the same breath as these players

4milesperday
07-29-2013, 01:06 PM
Lets be honest, Kobe is not top 5. What has he done without star players? Atleast Lebron took his Cleveland team to the finals.

Mine in no order

Duncan
Jordan
Wilt
Shaq
Magic

Note: My top 5 (excluding Shaq) revolutionized the game and others try to emulate them. That can't be said of either Kobe or Lebron...they're not original.

Honorable mentions missing out on top 5

Bird, Olajuwon, Lebron, Kobe, Mailman, Pippen, Rusell, Kareem, Stockton

3RDASYSTEM
07-29-2013, 01:11 PM
bean is a top 10-15 backcourt player alltime right? all PG's and SG's combined in history

best 5 players to ever do it and he mimicked JORDAN from everything?

I wonder had JORDAN not been there who would he had played more like, his dad JELLYBEAN? I think so

bean has this will and competitive nature that has never been seen before but was a backup upon entering the league(what happen to all that will and competitive nature?)

I guess it grew on him after that JAZZ playoff sweep and he just lost it with this past first rd sweep by the SPURS after 17yrs, and he didn't even have to play, sort of like he barely played against JAZZ

but I get it T STARKS, top 5 player to ever do it, 81pts and the 5rings are proof

and to think he was mad at himself for being 'second fiddle robin' and now is the alpha male that he sought out to be after being tired of 'robin' role

what superstar gets tired of being a superstar and since when did a alpha and alpha cant co exist or even further what robin second fiddle would ever feel like that if he wasn't that? didn't he see that **** with the team he idolized growing up? ALCINDOR and MAGIC were both alpha males and it showed in the number of FINALS trips they went to,even WORTHY was alpha type,no 1 option

this dude bean has ****ed up the way people rank players with 5 ring talk and now longevity, and just to think they used FAVRE's longevity against him

these backup players are the best ever once they reach fulltime starter status

3RDASYSTEM
07-29-2013, 01:13 PM
Lets be honest, Kobe is not top 5. What has he done without star players? Atleast Lebron took his Cleveland team to the finals.

Mine in no order

Duncan
Jordan
Wilt
Shaq
Magic

Note: My top 5 (excluding Shaq) revolutionized the game and others try to emulate them. That can't be said of either Kobe or Lebron...they're not original.

Honorable mentions missing out on top 5

Bird, Olajuwon, Lebron, Kobe, Mailman, Pippen, Rusell, Kareem, Stockton

well how can you leave off IVERSON far as revolutionizing the game and that 01' team is worse or equal to BRON's cast? DALY has him in his top 10 best players all time, and last I checked he coached the original DREAM TEAM, and his JORDAN rules were carried on to IVERSON rules, same coach who said the diff. between IVERSON and JORDAN was JORDAN had PIPP and IVERSON had MCKIE or LYNCH, choose 1 or both

Federal Reserve
07-29-2013, 01:14 PM
1. Lebron
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Johnson
5. Shaq

b@llhog24
07-29-2013, 01:25 PM
MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream/Duncan

3RDASYSTEM
07-29-2013, 01:25 PM
WILT
ALCINDOR
SHAQ
BRON
IVERSON

JORDAN
BARKLEY
DREAM
DR J - MAGIC
RUSSELL

No order at all

KnickaBocka.44
07-29-2013, 01:43 PM
WILT
ALCINDOR
SHAQ
BRON
IVERSON

JORDAN
BARKLEY
DREAM
DR J - MAGIC
RUSSELL

No order at all

I think it asked for top 5. If Iverson is in your top 5 you should never come back.

ManRam
07-29-2013, 02:01 PM
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Duncan
Johnson
Jordan



My list changes all the time, which probably is a bad thing. I do just find it so hard to rate these guys comfortably. I'm admittedly lower on Russell than most; he's closer to 10th than 5th IMO. Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, LeBron and I guess Russell round out my top 10. Kobe is just on the outside looking in. As are Oscar, West, Malone(s) and the Admiral.

Cal827
07-29-2013, 02:17 PM
Brian Scalabraine
Mike James
Joel Anthony
Kwame Brown
Ricky Davis

Bostonjorge
07-29-2013, 02:22 PM
Jordan
Wilt
KAJ
Kobe
Magic

I have shaq and bird at 6 and 7. Kobe is the only player who can move up on this list. It depends where he ends up on the all time scoring list and ring count. Because this game has always been about buckets.

Chronz
07-29-2013, 02:26 PM
Agree with the Mac

How do you build a case against the plethora of greats you're bound to neglect?

That said.

MJ

KAJ-WILT-SHAQ-DUNCAN-HAKEEM-MAGIC-BIRD-KOBE-RUSS are all equally deserving. No one else IMO.

DR_1
07-29-2013, 02:30 PM
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. The Big O
8. Bird
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

Duncan is probably next, with LeBron following. Will have to think about it some more.

DR_1
07-29-2013, 02:32 PM
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Duncan
Johnson
Jordan



My list changes all the time, which probably is a bad thing. I do just find it so hard to rate these guys comfortably. I'm admittedly lower on Russell than most; he's closer to 10th than 5th IMO. Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, LeBron and I guess Russell round out my top 10. Kobe is just on the outside looking in. As are Oscar, West, Malone(s) and the Admiral.

I don't blame you for changing your list all the time - IMO the top 11 or so are so close you can really go any order and still have your rankings justified.

LAKERMANIA
07-29-2013, 05:03 PM
WILT
ALCINDOR
SHAQ
BRON
IVERSON

JORDAN
BARKLEY
DREAM
DR J - MAGIC
RUSSELL

No order at all

Just stop posting.

nimzboy
07-29-2013, 05:27 PM
I know right? But they'll put Lebron at 3 with 2 rings. Psd at its finest!

Lebron is currently top 10 of all time and kobe is arguably top 10. When Lebron ends his career I gurantee you he will be considered top 5 by people who actually know the game of basketball. Rings dont mean everything or bill russel is the greatest of all time. Lebron has 4 mvps, kobe has 1. Lebron already has 2 finals mvps, the same as kobe. 1 more finals mvp for lbj and I think there is 0 argument for kobe over lebron. Lbj arguably has the greatest stats of all time(michael and him are very close) after the era of guys like oscar and wilt. Lebron is the most efficient star on the wing since michael and he impacts the game in every single way.

the avenger
07-29-2013, 05:31 PM
Jordan
Abdul-Jabbar
Chamberlain
Johnson
Bird

this IS the top 5, leaving one of these out is a CRIME

Minimal
07-29-2013, 06:14 PM
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Shaq

mrblisterdundee
07-29-2013, 06:53 PM
LeBron James has to win more championships before he earns a spot in the top five. As it stands, though, I'll put him in the same stratosphere as Wilt Chamberlain, who only won two championships. There's no way Chamberlain would do significantly better than James in today's NBA.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain

Denver-boy
07-29-2013, 07:04 PM
1:MJ
2: KAREEM A-J
3: Larry Bird
4: Magic
5: Hakeem Olajuwon\Wilt

Hawkeye15
07-29-2013, 07:13 PM
MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Shaq
Dream/Duncan

I have a very similar list. Does LeBron enter your top 5 by career end? Assuming 3-4 more years of this level, and a nice decline?

AIRMAR72
07-29-2013, 07:44 PM
MJ
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Magic
NO! tobe cryant(kobe bryant) DONT belong on the list as top 5 NBA player he dont deserve to be or earn it my listed names of players made their teammates BETTER thats greatness
1.Mike Jordan
2.Hakeem
3.magic
4.Bird
5.Bron

JordansBulls
07-29-2013, 07:49 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan

Bostonjorge
07-29-2013, 10:47 PM
Kobe will be top 3 when he is done playing. Kobe will be no lower then number 3 in the all time scoring list. Kobe will add to his championship ring count and will always be arguably the greatest player of all time.

Slug3
07-29-2013, 10:57 PM
I blame Lebron and Kobea parents for not geting together to make sure their kids were born at the same time. If they both were the same age I feel we would have seen some great finals with them.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2013, 11:26 PM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell

ATX
07-30-2013, 12:17 AM
Kobe will be top 3 when he is done playing. Kobe will be no lower then number 3 in the all time scoring list. Kobe will add to his championship ring count and will always be arguably the greatest player of all time.

Wow keep dreaming... Who is going to come rescue him for winning more titles. Seeing as how he'll demand just about the entire salary cap, perhaps James and Melo can come in at the vet minimum. Perhaps Cousins can be his new whipping boy. Maybe Paul George was lying about staying put and will come to LA with three more players hand picked from the Pacers in exchange for future 2nd's and cash considerations. Durant might demand a trade and bring Westbrook with him in exchange for Nash and D'Antoni. Maybe the Clippers will just strike until they are Lakers. Arguably GOAT? Don't make me laugh.

Drummond#1
07-30-2013, 01:15 AM
bean is a top 10-15 backcourt player alltime right? all PG's and SG's combined in history

best 5 players to ever do it and he mimicked JORDAN from everything?

I wonder had JORDAN not been there who would he had played more like, his dad JELLYBEAN? I think so

bean has this will and competitive nature that has never been seen before but was a backup upon entering the league(what happen to all that will and competitive nature?)

I guess it grew on him after that JAZZ playoff sweep and he just lost it with this past first rd sweep by the SPURS after 17yrs, and he didn't even have to play, sort of like he barely played against JAZZ

but I get it T STARKS, top 5 player to ever do it, 81pts and the 5rings are proof

and to think he was mad at himself for being 'second fiddle robin' and now is the alpha male that he sought out to be after being tired of 'robin' role

what superstar gets tired of being a superstar and since when did a alpha and alpha cant co exist or even further what robin second fiddle would ever feel like that if he wasn't that? didn't he see that **** with the team he idolized growing up? ALCINDOR and MAGIC were both alpha males and it showed in the number of FINALS trips they went to,even WORTHY was alpha type,no 1 option

this dude bean has ****ed up the way people rank players with 5 ring talk and now longevity, and just to think they used FAVRE's longevity against him

these backup players are the best ever once they reach fulltime starter status

STFU. Two rings later and you still gotta hate on Mamba. Smh. #bandwagon. #pathetic.

Drummond#1
07-30-2013, 01:16 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan

I agree JB.

LongIslandIcedZ
07-30-2013, 01:24 AM
When its all said and done, 1 and 2 are:

Michael
Lebron

Then 3-5 gets tough

Magic/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq/Duncan/Bird

I have no clue how to cut those 5 to 3

dalton749
07-30-2013, 01:29 AM
It needs to be though of more as: you can choose one of these guys to build your team around, who do you choose? Which makes saying Kobe will be top 3 incredibly stupid

Rings don't say as much about individual players as people make them out to

JWorthy42
07-30-2013, 02:26 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal

:)

JWorthy42
07-30-2013, 02:28 AM
I have a very similar list. Does LeBron enter your top 5 by career end? Assuming 3-4 more years of this level, and a nice decline?

You don't think Magic should be included in the Top 5? :confused:

naps
07-30-2013, 03:48 AM
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan

Yes it's pretty hard to come up with a definitive top 5 all the time. My list changes all the time though I am pretty firm on 1, 2, 3 being Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt but after that it gets a bit tough. Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Russell are all deserving as well. I just have a hard time putting someone in my top 5 if they were not dominant on both ends of the floor. So I am a bit iffy about Magic and Bird.

ArmLaker
07-30-2013, 04:50 AM
STFU. Two rings later and you still gotta hate on Mamba. Smh. #bandwagon. #pathetic.

Kobe sucks dude. He started his career off the bench behind all-star Eddie Jones at 18 years of age. That automatically eliminates everything he's ever achieved in his pathetic career according to this genius poster 3rd system

BklynKnicks3
07-30-2013, 09:25 AM
iam sorry u cant have a top 5 without magic bird n mj in it just stop

DanG
07-30-2013, 12:17 PM
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Magic

Chacarron
07-30-2013, 01:36 PM
Kobe lol

My thoughs exactly.

Also, while Lebron could end up top 5, I am assuming these rankings are as of today. These are my top 5 players:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3) Magic Johnson
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Wilt Chamberlain

Bostonjorge
07-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Funny how people try to water down nba championships. Not to many players have 5 or more rings let alone back to back or three peats. Every player I see on people list all had a top 20 player all time when they won a championship.

Also saying kobe will never win a championship again is ridiculous. No one knows who he will be playing with in the future. It's funny how a player can be as high as 2 on media professionals and fans list and also be left off the top 10 on other list.

ArmLaker
07-30-2013, 02:09 PM
Funny how people try to water down nba championships. Not to many players have 5 or more rings let alone back to back or three peats. Every player I see on people list all had a top 20 player all time when they won a championship.

Also saying kobe will never win a championship again is ridiculous. No one knows who he will be playing with in the future. It's funny how a player can be as high as 2 on media professionals and fans list and also be left off the top 10 on other list.

He'll get his respect after he retires. Although I don't think his legacy is set in stone just yet.

Hope he gets another crack or two at more championships somehow someway. Even then he's still not top 10 all time according to hater logic.

SoylentGreen
07-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Kobe

JeremiahWing
07-30-2013, 03:30 PM
Jordan
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem/Shaq

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2013, 03:37 PM
Lebron lol

Jordan
bird
kobe
magic
Kareem

This!

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2013, 03:38 PM
1. Lebron
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Johnson
5. Shaq

lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2013, 03:40 PM
I blame Lebron and Kobea parents for not geting together to make sure their kids were born at the same time. If they both were the same age I feel we would have seen some great finals with them.

Yeah, it would have been awesome.

ATX
07-30-2013, 03:47 PM
Well Illusionist has appeared. Time to close thread now before it's too late. Now it's just going to be a reminisce about Kobe's glory thread again.

Chronz
07-30-2013, 06:05 PM
iam sorry u cant have a top 5 without magic bird n mj in it just stop
lol

is that what your pops told u?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-30-2013, 08:20 PM
Well Illusionist has appeared. Time to close thread now before it's too late. Now it's just going to be a reminisce about Kobe's glory thread again.:cool:

dalton749
07-30-2013, 08:41 PM
kobes so obsessed with getting these 6 rings because he thinks that makes him equal to mj, except mj was the best player in all of those championships, kobe hasn't been, and wont be if he wins another

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 08:44 PM
iam sorry u cant have a top 5 without magic bird n mj in it just stop

Bird doesn't belong in the top 5 of any rational fans discussion. The only 3 that are pure locks are:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 08:48 PM
You don't think Magic should be included in the Top 5? :confused:

I said similar :)

But I can see why he may be left off some peoples list. His defense was crap, and he is going against some beasts. I personally have him #5, to be bumped by LeBron within 1-2 years.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 08:50 PM
He'll get his respect after he retires. Although I don't think his legacy is set in stone just yet.

Hope he gets another crack or two at more championships somehow someway. Even then he's still not top 10 all time according to hater logic.

I think the opposite. He will be put into proper perspective after he retires. How can a player who was never the flat out best player in the game during any given year, with numbers that simply don't stack up year by year, be considered top 5 ever? Peak wise, he isn't even top 10. No way. But his ridiculous longevity pulls him right back into that conversation. But we can list 15 players at a minimum who had a better year than Kobe ever has.

WadeKobe
07-30-2013, 08:55 PM
Bird doesn't belong in the top 5 of any rational fans discussion. The only 3 that are pure locks are:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

It is one thing to say you don't think he is, but not in any rational fan's opinion? That's extreme.

KAJ probably wins out due to longevity, but Bird's Peak rivals just about any player in the history of the NBA. Likewise, without a lot of information which we are, sadly, missing, older players are extremely difficult to assess accurately and all of the pontificating on the subject by people younger than 35 really is absurd.

If we are talking post-1978, there is no doubt in my mind that Bird is a top5 player.

And how does one compare Wilt to KAJ accurately? I am not saying there aren't ways to do so with some degree, but when we don't know how much rebounds are actually worth in a given era, or what % of a player's rebounds were offensive, it gets ridiculously hard to know.

Without play-by-play, we are left approximating % (with great accuracy) and then allocating players' % O/D across a standard distribution, which skews the data.

There are tons of questions rational fans have to ask. How often did Oscar and West turn the ball over relative to their peers? That is a big deal.

I am just not ready to say that Wilt and KAJ are "locks", and Magic isn't. I would put Magic over either of those guys, because we actually know a lot more about how valuable he was.

lukass
07-30-2013, 09:06 PM
anyone who doesn't include LBJ is nuts he's a PG,SG,SF,PF all in one. The most talented player ever. MJ is the best.

SHAQ
DUNCAN
LBJ
MJ
MAGIC

Pippen as a 6th man LBJ took his spot

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 09:16 PM
It is one thing to say you don't think he is, but not in any rational fan's opinion? That's extreme.

Then show why. Shortened career, average defender, stats don't stack up to the other top 5 candidates, nor all around game. I just don't think he has a case.


KAJ probably wins out due to longevity, but Bird's Peak rivals just about any player in the history of the NBA.

But his peak doesn't stack up to MJ, KAJ, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, Dream, Magic, or Duncan.


Likewise, without a lot of information which we are, sadly, missing, older players are extremely difficult to assess accurately and all of the pontificating on the subject by people younger than 35 really is absurd.

I am 38 in a month.



If we are talking post-1978, there is no doubt in my mind that Bird is a top5 player.

Sure he has a case, but that isn't fair to KAJ/Wilt


And how does one compare Wilt to KAJ accurately? I am not saying there aren't ways to do so with some degree, but when we don't know how much rebounds are actually worth in a given era, or what % of a player's rebounds were offensive, it gets ridiculously hard to know.

well, we have the numbers, most of them. If we didn't accurately rank them, wouldn't Wilt be #1 by a mile with those numbers?


Without play-by-play, we are left approximating % (with great accuracy) and then allocating players' % O/D across a standard distribution, which skews the data.

Fair enough to some degree. The research wouldn't be published and accepted by almost every stat site if it wasn't pretty damn accurate, but you have a point.


There are tons of questions rational fans have to ask. How often did Oscar and West turn the ball over relative to their peers? That is a big deal.

Not arguing that. And I believe any stats that are unavailable to older players are left out of the argument to modern players. That being said, we do have to rely on the eye test for all of our observations, and then follow it up with the numbers.


I am just not ready to say that Wilt and KAJ are "locks", and Magic isn't. I would put Magic over either of those guys, because we actually know a lot more about how valuable he was.

KAJ and Wilt are locks. KAJ's huge peak and huge numbers during peak warrant it, and Wilt's complete and utter dominance can not be matched by anyone but MJ.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 09:17 PM
anyone who doesn't include LBJ is nuts he's a PG,SG,SF,PF all in one. The most talented player ever. MJ is the best.

SHAQ
DUNCAN
LBJ
MJ
MAGIC

Pippen as a 6th man LBJ took his spot

I agree he will be there for sure. But he is 28, and needs to keep adding to his resume. I really don't think barring a truck hitting him and his career is over, that he doesn't get into the top 5 ever in the next few years

lukass
07-30-2013, 09:28 PM
I agree he will be there for sure. But he is 28, and needs to keep adding to his resume. I really don't think barring a truck hitting him and his career is over, that he doesn't get into the top 5 ever in the next few years

I agree. also his talent alone even if he doesn't add anymore rings will keep him in the top 5 from here

b@llhog24
07-30-2013, 09:35 PM
I have a very similar list. Does LeBron enter your top 5 by career end? Assuming 3-4 more years of this level, and a nice decline?

I think it's inevitiable that he ends up being mentioned with those names. With that being said, where he falls depends on how well he continues to play during the playoffs. I love me some two way bigs (and players for that matter).


I said similar :)

But I can see why he may be left off some peoples list. His defense was crap, and he is going against some beasts. I personally have him #5, to be bumped by LeBron within 1-2 years.

I have him right after Timmy.


It is one thing to say you don't think he is, but not in any rational fan's opinion? That's extreme.

KAJ probably wins out due to longevity, but Bird's Peak rivals just about any player in the history of the NBA. Likewise, without a lot of information which we are, sadly, missing, older players are extremely difficult to assess accurately and all of the pontificating on the subject by people younger than 35 really is absurd.

If we are talking post-1978, there is no doubt in my mind that Bird is a top5 player.

And how does one compare Wilt to KAJ accurately? I am not saying there aren't ways to do so with some degree, but when we don't know how much rebounds are actually worth in a given era, or what % of a player's rebounds were offensive, it gets ridiculously hard to know.

Without play-by-play, we are left approximating % (with great accuracy) and then allocating players' % O/D across a standard distribution, which skews the data.

There are tons of questions rational fans have to ask. How often did Oscar and West turn the ball over relative to their peers? That is a big deal.

I am just not ready to say that Wilt and KAJ are "locks", and Magic isn't. I would put Magic over either of those guys, because we actually know a lot more about how valuable he was.

Any systematic breakdown of Bird's career would or at least should reveal that he's not top 5 anymore. He doesn't have top 5 accolades, a top 5 peak and definitely top 5 longevity. Game wise his defense also left A LOT to be desired over his career (some years he was a decent defender but collectively speaking)
I love me some Bird though, I think maybe if you rank players in the way that bagwell does (which players can play within a team concept the best); then he's your SF by the slimmest margins over LeBron.

raider_fan
07-30-2013, 09:49 PM
MJ
Kobe
Kareem
Magic
Wilt

JeremiahWing
07-30-2013, 09:58 PM
Way too much Kobe in this thread... and I love him as a player. But top 5? Come on now.

JeremiahWing
07-30-2013, 10:00 PM
anyone who doesn't include LBJ is nuts he's a PG,SG,SF,PF all in one. The most talented player ever. MJ is the best.

SHAQ
DUNCAN
LBJ
MJ
MAGIC

Pippen as a 6th man LBJ took his spot

No Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, but you have a 28 year old, and Tim Duncan?

How old are you?

ArmLaker
07-30-2013, 10:01 PM
I think the opposite. He will be put into proper perspective after he retires. How can a player who was never the flat out best player in the game during any given year, with numbers that simply don't stack up year by year, be considered top 5 ever? Peak wise, he isn't even top 10. No way. But his ridiculous longevity pulls him right back into that conversation. But we can list 15 players at a minimum who had a better year than Kobe ever has.

Based on what? Numbers alone? If that's the case wilt chamberlain is the goat and its not even remotely close.

Kobe is a 6'6" shooting guard who is perimeter oriented. He's not getting you 15-20 rebounds a night nor 5+ blocks. It's kind of unfair to use only numbers arguments to discredit him. I can't even think of 10 players who are more talented/skilled than Kobe in his prime.

He and lebron are the most universal players of my time that I have witnessed and understood.

His peak his dominance and greatness are top 10 all time no matter what anybody thinks.

Longevity alone doesn't propel you to the elite legendary status that he already owns. If that was the case, why don't we respect Malone/Ewing/Stockton and the likes as much as we should? They were dominant and as great as anybody in their primes.

As far as I'm concerned, he still has a few seasons left and his legacy is not yet set in stone.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 10:12 PM
Based on what? Numbers alone? If that's the case wilt chamberlain is the goat and its not even remotely close.

Kobe is a 6'6" shooting guard who is perimeter oriented. He's not getting you 15-20 rebounds a night nor 5+ blocks. It's kind of unfair to use only numbers arguments to discredit him. I can't even think of 10 players who are more talented/skilled than Kobe in his prime.

He and lebron are the most universal players of my time that I have witnessed and understood.

His peak his dominance and greatness are top 10 all time no matter what anybody thinks.

Longevity alone doesn't propel you to the elite legendary status that he already owns. If that was the case, why don't we respect Malone/Ewing/Stockton and the likes as much as we should? They were dominant and as great as anybody in their primes.

As far as I'm concerned, he still has a few seasons left and his legacy is not yet set in stone.

Based on real numbers, and role. Kobe just won't stack up in the conversation. In 5-6 years, Kobe will be at best top 10, at worst top 12-13.

ArmLaker
07-30-2013, 10:25 PM
Based on real numbers, and role. Kobe just won't stack up in the conversation. In 5-6 years, Kobe will be at best top 10, at worst top 12-13.

Like I said, you cannot name me 10 or more players with Kobe's longevity, talent and skill.

You want numbers, look at this year.

More than 27 ppg, shooting roughly 47%, about 6 rpg, 6 apg all at the age of 34 and in his 17th year no less. I can't think of anyone other than the goat who is capable of such things.

As I've previously stated, he'll get that recognition when he retires or is dead.

el hidalgo
07-30-2013, 10:38 PM
Like I said, you cannot name me 10 or more players with Kobe's longevity, talent and skill.

You want numbers, look at this year.

More than 27 ppg, shooting roughly 47%, about 6 rpg, 6 apg all at the age of 34 and in his 17th year no less. I can't think of anyone other than the goat who is capable of such things.

As I've previously stated, he'll get that recognition when he retires or is dead.

Hence why i think kobe used PED'S (not all PED's make you big. see lance armstrong). Dude could barely dunk a couple years ago, and he was throwing down and healthy as ever this year.

It depends how you rate longevity, peak, etc. Kobe's peak is nowhere near top 10.

lukass
07-30-2013, 10:38 PM
No Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, but you have a 28 year old, and Tim Duncan?

How old are you?

25 why? I take into consideration the talent each player was up against too. I would've taken MJ a 28 years old also

lukass
07-30-2013, 10:41 PM
I hate Tim Duncan mostly because he's a Spur but he is a top 5 player in my book especially given the talent he faced in his career

ArmLaker
07-30-2013, 10:50 PM
Hence why i think kobe used PED'S (not all PED's make you big. see lance armstrong). Dude could barely dunk a couple years ago, and he was throwing down and healthy as ever this year.

It depends how you rate longevity, peak, etc. Kobe's peak is nowhere near top 10.

Name me those 10 players....and lol at PEDs .

What's next? He uses cocaine to re-energise himself during halftimes?

el hidalgo
07-30-2013, 11:02 PM
Name me those 10 players....and lol at PEDs .

What's next? He uses cocaine to re-energise himself during halftimes?

Why is it laughable? Dude is in his 17th year, has a ton of miles, and played over 38 minutes a game for 78 games and had one of his best year.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 11:24 PM
Like I said, you cannot name me 10 or more players with Kobe's longevity, talent and skill.

You want numbers, look at this year.

More than 27 ppg, shooting roughly 47%, about 6 rpg, 6 apg all at the age of 34 and in his 17th year no less. I can't think of anyone other than the goat who is capable of such things.

As I've previously stated, he'll get that recognition when he retires or is dead.

But I can name 15-20 with better peaks. Kobe's longevity, and gifted situation (dominant front office) are why he is top 10 arguably.

JeremiahWing
07-30-2013, 11:45 PM
25 why? I take into consideration the talent each player was up against too. I would've taken MJ a 28 years old also

Please give me your case as to why LBJ and Tim Duncan both, at this point in their careers, rank ahead of Wilt, Kareem, and Oscar all-time. I await your response.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2013, 11:48 PM
Please give me your case as to why LBJ and Tim Duncan both, at this point in their careers, rank ahead of Wilt, Kareem, and Oscar all-time. I await your response.

Oscar? Easy case

JeremiahWing
07-30-2013, 11:49 PM
Throw in Bird, just for fun.

AIRMAR72
07-30-2013, 11:51 PM
Name me those 10 players....and lol at PEDs .

What's next? He uses cocaine to re-energise himself during halftimes?
kobe is juicing brah here is ya list of ten players
mose Malone
buck Williams
herb willams
Robert parish
Jason kidd
tim Duncan
marcus camby
cliff Robertson
jawun howard
ray allen

Hawkeye15
07-31-2013, 12:04 AM
Throw in Bird, just for fun.

make a case dude

JeremiahWing
07-31-2013, 12:16 AM
make a case dude

I'm responding to someone else's list that was put up, and I'm seeking a rationale. I'll wait to make a counter case once I see some reasoning.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2013, 12:23 AM
I'm responding to someone else's list that was put up, and I'm seeking a rationale. I'll wait to make a counter case once I see some reasoning.

Bird didn't have the longevity, the stats, or the defensive ability to stack up with the other top 5.

Oscar? He is top 15, not even remotely close to top 5.

JeremiahWing
07-31-2013, 12:31 AM
Bird didn't have the longevity, the stats, or the defensive ability to stack up with the other top 5.

Oscar? He is top 15, not even remotely close to top 5.

But do you feel comfortable putting LBJ and Duncan ahead of Wilt, Kareem, and Larry, at this point in time like the poster suggests?

bucketss
07-31-2013, 12:36 AM
Lebron lol

Jordan
bird
kobe
magic
Kareem

what a horrendous list.

bucketss
07-31-2013, 12:37 AM
jordan
magic
kareem
wilt
russel

tredigs
07-31-2013, 12:39 AM
Jordan

KAJ

Wilt

Magic

Shaq

Top 4's my Rushmore.

smith&wesson
07-31-2013, 12:45 AM
Mj
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Kareem
Lebron
Bird
Duncan

tredigs
07-31-2013, 12:49 AM
Mj
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Kareem
Lebron
Bird
Duncan

There's no defense for Kobe top 3, especially over KAJ.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 01:03 AM
But I can name 15-20 with better peaks. Kobe's longevity, and gifted situation (dominant front office) are why he is top 10 arguably.

Name me 10. And please don't use front office as a knock on him. Lebron has a great FO as well so let's not go there.

Specify peak....dominance? Skill? Talent? Numbers? Accolades? Do we factor in the teams they played on. I want to get your insight.

Bostonjorge
07-31-2013, 01:07 AM
So kobe winning with shaq damages kobe legacy. Magic played with KAJ who's legacy does that hurt. Magic never won with out KAJ and he also had worthy another finals MVP. Kobe has a strong case for top 3 all time more so when he's top 3 all time scoring leader.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 01:16 AM
So kobe winning with shaq damages kobe legacy. Magic played with KAJ who's legacy does that hurt. Magic never won with out KAJ and he also had worthy another finals MVP. Kobe has a strong case for top 3 all time more so when he's top 3 all time scoring leader.

I don't care if you put lebron or mj in Kobe's place during the three peat, they're not winning any finals MVPs over shaq. He was just that dominant. 30+ ppg 15+rpg. Dominant on both sides of the court like we've never seen before.

The thing I've loved and hated at the same time about the guys in my sig were that they were never a batman/robin combo.

Think batman/superman

tredigs
07-31-2013, 01:19 AM
Name me 10. And please don't use front office as a knock on him. Lebron has a great FO as well so let's not go there.

Specify peak....dominance? Skill? Talent? Numbers? Accolades? Do we factor in the teams they played on. I want to get your insight.
10 with better peaks then Kobe, taking into account both sides of the floor?

Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Barkley, Malone. Then there's all the others with comparable or arguably better peak play; T-Mac, Dr. J, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, Walton, Garnett, Moses Malone, I could go on.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 01:41 AM
10 with better peaks then Kobe, taking into account both sides of the floor?

Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Barkley, Malone. Then there's all the others with comparable or arguably better peak play; T-Mac, Dr. J, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, Walton, Garnett, Moses Malone, I could go on.

We both know deep down your bottom list is laughable.

As for the top ones, magic was never great defensively. Hakeem's peak was marvellous but outside of those two title runs, I really don't see how he has a case over Kobe. Barkley once again wasn't great defensively. Wilt, Kareem, shaq, mj, all have legit cases over Kobe. Duncan's dominance was great but I don't believe it was as consistent as Kobe's, he never went to back to back finals let alone 3 in a row(twice) like Kobe has. Lol at Robinson. Malone would've had a case had he won.

I just don't see how at least half of these guys were better than Kobe peak or not.

If you're talking about numbers, these guys or at least most of them were bigger than Kobe and played closer to the basket thus having better fg % more blocks and rebounds.

Bostonjorge
07-31-2013, 01:52 AM
10 with better peaks then Kobe, taking into account both sides of the floor?

Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Barkley, Malone. Then there's all the others with comparable or arguably better peak play; T-Mac, Dr. J, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, Walton, Garnett, Moses Malone, I could go on.

Is this a joke. Funny thing is the top list players are considerd the best of the best but only one guy left to join another top 5 players team and a top 10 player to finally win.

tredigs
07-31-2013, 02:20 AM
We both know deep down your bottom list is laughable.

As for the top ones, magic was never great defensively. Hakeem's peak was marvellous but outside of those two title runs, I really don't see how he has a case over Kobe. Barkley once again wasn't great defensively. Wilt, Kareem, shaq, mj, all have legit cases over Kobe. Duncan's dominance was great but I don't believe it was as consistent as Kobe's, he never went to back to back finals let alone 3 in a row(twice) like Kobe has. Lol at Robinson. Malone would've had a case had he won.

I just don't see how at least half of these guys were better than Kobe peak or not.

If you're talking about numbers, these guys or at least most of them were bigger than Kobe and played closer to the basket thus having better fg % more blocks and rebounds.

Lmao at "because they were bigger than Kobe". You know who else was bigger than Kobe? About 10,000 other NBA players through the years who he is better than and put up much more impressive numbers than.

The only joke is that you think any of those players on that list is a joke. All of them had either more impressive title runs, better two way dominance, or were flat out more demonstrative offensively and on the glass. Barkley was shorter than Kobe, yet would average 27/14/5 through the playoffs on TS%'s that Kobe never sniffed. Unfortunately for him, like Robinson, that leagues elite were just all time forces. "Lol at Robinson" he says. A guy who you penciled in as a top 3 defender in the league while putting up 30/11/5 +1.7stl 3.3blk with an RAPM, PER and WinShare total that easily eclipse Kobe's best. Yeah, "lol". His peak **** on Kobe's. You guys have no understanding of on court impact, you're a product of the media.

Interesting that not once in Kobe's career did he crack the top 5 in RAPM. That's a telling stat.

Bostonjorge
07-31-2013, 02:39 AM
Lmao at "because they were bigger than Kobe". You know who else was bigger than Kobe? About 10,000 other NBA players through the years who he is better than and put up much more impressive numbers than.

The only joke is that you think any of those players on that list is a joke. All of them had either more impressive title runs, better two way dominance, or were flat out more demonstrative offensively and on the glass. Barkley was shorter than Kobe, yet would average 27/14/5 through the playoffs on TS%'s that Kobe never sniffed. Unfortunately for him, like Robinson, that leagues elite were just all time forces. "Lol at Robinson" he says. A guy who you penciled in as a top 3 defender in the league while putting up 30/11/5 +1.7stl 3.3blk with an RAPM, PER and WinShare total that easily eclipse Kobe's best. Yeah, "lol". His peak **** on Kobe's. You guys have no understanding of on court impact, you're a product of the media.

Interesting that not once in Kobe's career did he crack the top 5 in RAPM. That's a telling stat.

So why could they not win at a consistent level like kobe? How did they have better title runs when kobe passed them all in finals appearance's and only Jordan and KAJ have more rings which is 1. By your logic kobe is an anomaly who wins and gets to the finals even tho the numbers say he shouldn't or even sniff them because his plus/minus(RAPM) are to low. That just show's how special kobe is.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 02:52 AM
Lmao at "because they were bigger than Kobe". You know who else was bigger than Kobe? About 10,000 other NBA players through the years who he is better than and put up much more impressive numbers than.

The only joke is that you think any of those players on that list is a joke. All of them had either more impressive title runs, better two way dominance, or were flat out more demonstrative offensively and on the glass. Barkley was shorter than Kobe, yet would average 27/14/5 through the playoffs on TS%'s that Kobe never sniffed. Unfortunately for him, like Robinson, that leagues elite were just all time forces. "Lol at Robinson" he says. A guy who you penciled in as a top 3 defender in the league while putting up 30/11/5 +1.7stl 3.3blk with an RAPM, PER and WinShare total that easily eclipse Kobe's best. Yeah, "lol". His peak **** on Kobe's. You guys have no understanding of on court impact, you're a product of the media.

Interesting that not once in Kobe's career did he crack the top 5 in RAPM. That's a telling stat.

....and yet they've never sniffed a championship or the amount of championships Kobe has. I couldn't care less About advanced stats. The work on the court and the skill and talent I get to witness night in and night out are more than enough of a sample size for me. Once again you failed to specify "peak". Anyone can pad some stats here and again, ask Ricky Davis. Most find it difficult to spearhead your team to 5 championships and 7 finals appearances. If that doesn't scream dominance, skill and consistency on both ends of the floor, I don't know what does really.


About those advanced stats....Kobe is so great that he defies those advanced fairy tale stats and is where he's at now and still not done. How much greater can you get? Lmao

tredigs
07-31-2013, 03:10 AM
So why could they not win at a consistent level like kobe? How did they have better title runs when kobe passed them all in finals appearance's and only Jordan and KAJ have more rings which is 1. By your logic kobe is an anomaly who wins and gets to the finals even tho the numbers say he shouldn't or even sniff them because his plus/minus(RAPM) are to low. That just show's how special kobe is.

Hahahah. And Kobe did this on his own? Listen, he's a legend in his own right, one of the more impactful players the league has come across, but playing alongside prime Shaq then later with prime Pau + Odom when the teams he was facing in the finals at that time included Dwight Howard's Magic? Hahah - Do you notice the difference between that and Barkley having to go toe to toe with Jordan + Pippen's Bulls when he made it there? Maybe a little? In Robinson's prime his #2 and #3 were Dale Ellis and Willie Anderson. Stop ignoring reality kids.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 03:22 AM
Hahahah. And Kobe did this on his own? Listen, he's a legend in his own right, one of the more impactful players the league has come across, but playing alongside prime Shaq then later with prime Pau + Odom when the teams he was facing in the finals at that time included Dwight Howard's Magic? Hahah - Do you notice the difference between that and Barkley having to go toe to toe with Jordan + Pippen's Bulls when he made it there? Maybe a little? In Robinson's prime his #2 and #3 were Dale Ellis and Willie Anderson. Stop ignoring reality kids.

Yeah let's completely ignore who Kobe had to face in a much tougher west like the blazers, kings and twin tower spurs that is Duncan and Robinson to even make the finals.

Lets also ignore the late 00s spurs, suns, and jazz. Who the hell are te celtics anyways? Any handicap would've beat them too, they suck.

But let's bring up the fact he had shaq and a very good big man in gasol to help win those titles because every other legend did it alone.

I mean who did Duncan or lebron have? Who did mj have? Who did magic and bird have? They all carried the teams alone to a title while Kobe stood there and looked pretty.

Kobe sucks he's not top 10. His peak sucks and he's a rapist above all else.

tredigs
07-31-2013, 03:42 AM
Yeah let's completely ignore who Kobe had to face in a much tougher west like the blazers, kings and twin tower spurs that is Duncan and Robinson to even make the finals.

Lets also ignore the late 00s spurs, suns, and jazz. Who the hell are te celtics anyways? Any handicap would've beat them too, they suck.

But let's bring up the fact he had shaq and a very good big man in gasol to help win those titles because every other legend did it alone.

I mean who did Duncan or lebron have? Who did mj have? Who did magic and bird have? They all carried the teams alone to a title while Kobe stood there and looked pretty.

Kobe sucks he's not top 10. His peak sucks and he's a rapist above all else.

Eloquently put. With that, Kobe-hero-worshiper-kid, end of discussion.

Bostonjorge
07-31-2013, 04:09 AM
Kobe and gasol is no jordan and pipen, magic and KAJ, bird and mchale, Duncan and Robinson. Gasol won 0 playoff games and 1 all star game before he came to LA. Gasol never in his careear made all NBA first team and never played D but yet kobe still won with him as his #2. Even kobes #3 odom was not better then those guys #3. Finals MVP worthy, rebounding champ rodman, tony Parker and parish are all better then gasol let alone odom. Dought any player ever wins with less on his team.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2013, 08:41 PM
Name me 10. And please don't use front office as a knock on him. Lebron has a great FO as well so let's not go there.

Specify peak....dominance? Skill? Talent? Numbers? Accolades? Do we factor in the teams they played on. I want to get your insight.

LeBron had a great front office? Not for his first 7 years....


Jordan
Wilt
KAJ
LeBron
Shaq
Oscar
David Robinson
KG
Duncan
Russell
West
Paul

all better peak statistical seasons, pretty easily.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2013, 08:44 PM
But do you feel comfortable putting LBJ and Duncan ahead of Wilt, Kareem, and Larry, at this point in time like the poster suggests?

I would put Duncan ahead of Larry for sure, LeBron is basically equal. Neither are in Wilt or KAJ's class, but LeBron will be imo.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 09:56 PM
LeBron had a great front office? Not for his first 7 years....


Jordan
Wilt
KAJ
LeBron
Shaq
Oscar
David Robinson
KG
Duncan
Russell
West
Paul

all better peak statistical seasons, pretty easily.

Statistically.....I'm talking about ability, skill, dominance. At Kobe's peak physically, half those guys wouldn't be able to do what he has done.

Numbers wise at their peaks they have the advantage over Kobe in terms of assists(for the point guards) and rebounds and blocked shot(big fellas).

Most of them never had Kobe's skill and ability on the court. Don't get me wrong all those players you named were legendary in their primes hell lbj is still ballin, but I just can't put most of their primes(individually) over Bryant's

Obviously mj, wilt, Kareem, shaq, and even bill Russell have cases over Kobe on both ends of the floor, but these guys were centers so it's expected for them to be efficient.

I don't even have to tell you about the goat.

Kobe is past his peak athletically but his class and skills are still there and better than ever so God willing he can bounce back and make a sure fire case for top 5 all time.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2013, 10:24 PM
Statistically.....I'm talking about ability, skill, dominance. At Kobe's peak physically, half those guys wouldn't be able to do what he has done.

good luck proving ability, skill, or dominance. Oh wait, those are reflected in their stats. At Kobe's peak physically, he didn't stack up with a single player I listed.


Numbers wise at their peaks they have the advantage over Kobe in terms of assists(for the point guards) and rebounds and blocked shot(big fellas).

I am more interested in impact. A player who provided more wins to his team. Everyone I listed had a bigger impact in a given season than Kobe ever has.


Most of them never had Kobe's skill and ability on the court. Don't get me wrong all those players you named were legendary in their primes hell lbj is still ballin, but I just can't put most of their primes(individually) over Bryant's

I believe I covered this already.


Obviously mj, wilt, Kareem, shaq, and even bill Russell have cases over Kobe on both ends of the floor, but these guys were centers so it's expected for them to be efficient.

I don't even have to tell you about the goat.


Obviously only basketball nuts understand how to put Kobe into perspective, because the casual fan overrates him big time due to team success and longevity, while ignoring that he really had no claim to being the best player in the game at any point of his career.



Kobe is past his peak athletically but his class and skills are still there and better than ever so God willing he can bounce back and make a sure fire case for top 5 all time.

Kobe literally has zero chance at being top 5 ever. His legacy is cemented, unless he finds to fountain of 23 year olds, and plays another 10 years at his career level, which would still never produce a peak season like everyone I listed and others.

M.Bibby2.0
07-31-2013, 10:36 PM
To me # of MVPs means more then # of championships when comparing individual greatness. Championships are a function that depends greatly on the entire team, not solely the individual. That's not to say collecting MVP's doesn't depend on your team but the correlation is certainly not as strong.

Also, Hawkeye's logic is undeniable.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 10:42 PM
good luck proving ability, skill, or dominance. Oh wait, those are reflected in their stats. At Kobe's peak physically, he didn't stack up with a single player I listed.



I am more interested in impact. A player who provided more wins to his team. Everyone I listed had a bigger impact in a given season than Kobe ever has.



I believe I covered this already.




Obviously only basketball nuts understand how to put Kobe into perspective, because the casual fan overrates him big time due to team success and longevity, while ignoring that he really had no claim to being the best player in the game at any point of his career.




Kobe literally has zero chance at being top 5 ever. His legacy is cemented, unless he finds to fountain of 23 year olds, and plays another 10 years at his career level, which would still never produce a peak season like everyone I listed and others.

If we're using peak then lets put in tmac up there. Ai as well. Ewing even.

Excluding the smush kwame seasons Kobe has constantly led his teams to top 3 seeds in the western conference. I wanna see any other superstar with that has led his team to 45 wins with hacks like smush, kwame, and Walton in the starting 5, in a tougher conference no less. In what world isn't that dominance and better than most of the players you have listed? You talk about stats as if that's going to win you rings and dominate.

Those players stats are a testament to their peaks you say? Then how do you factor having weaker stats and still being better?

If Kobe's stats aren't as great as you say, then isn't that even more amazing that a less "efficient" player has been better than the other efficient ones?

I'm just curious, what makes you think Kobe's legacy is set in stone? Did he get hit by that truck you always mention? Did he retire and I didn't know about it?

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 10:48 PM
To me # of MVPs means more then # of championships when comparing individual greatness. Championships are a function that depends greatly on the entire team, not solely the individual. That's not to say collecting MVP's doesn't depend on your team but the correlation is certainly not as strong.

Also, Hawkeye's logic is undeniable.

So Karl Malone and Steve Nash are greater than Kobe, shaq, hakeem?

I just can't put in so much stock into a regular season award that means jack when you get to the playoffs, you know where the real season begins.

Also if I'm not mistaken the MVP more often than not goes to the best player on the best team during the regular season. It doesn't necessarily prove that individually that player is the best in the entire league.

effen5
07-31-2013, 10:57 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan

This is my list as well. Tim Duncan might be the most underrated player in nba history.

M.Bibby2.0
07-31-2013, 11:42 PM
Usually the greats are the best player on a top team no? Also you can argue whether Nash deserved 2 etc.. but the point I was driving home is that guys with 3+ you will often find in top 10 all time (shows sustained dominance)

6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
4 - LeBron James
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Tough to argue with the people on that list. Obviously a combination of MVP's & FMVP's is favorable.

M.Bibby2.0
07-31-2013, 11:47 PM
So Karl Malone and Steve Nash are greater than Kobe, shaq, hakeem?

I just can't put in so much stock into a regular season award that means jack when you get to the playoffs, you know where the real season begins.

Also if I'm not mistaken the MVP more often than not goes to the best player on the best team during the regular season. It doesn't necessarily prove that individually that player is the best in the entire league.

I was saying as a general indicator multiple MVP's shows sustained dominance worthy of top 5. Didn't say it was clear cut always, but in my list of players with 3+ MVP's you can see my point.

ArmLaker
07-31-2013, 11:48 PM
Usually the greats are the best player on a top team no? Also you can argue whether Nash deserved 2 etc.. but the point I was driving home is that guys with 3+ you will often find in top 10 all time (shows sustained dominance)

6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
4 - LeBron James
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Tough to argue with the people on that list. Obviously a combination of MVP's & FMVP's is favorable.

No doubt that list is legendary.

And the fact that Kobe belongs on that list with one MVP award makes it all the more impressive.

As you mentioned, certain MVP winners can be questionable. It's nice to have it on your résumé but that's only a part of greatness.

Personally I put more stock to finals MVPs if I had to compare them.

M.Bibby2.0
07-31-2013, 11:52 PM
Finals MVP's don't necessarily go to extraordinary players always (like Billups). A team can be packed with very good players, not necessarily goat material and someone still has to get FMVP.

Kobe is on people's top 5 list for longevity. I just have a tough time saying someone can be top 5 all time goat when they were never even the best player in the NBA during their respective era.

M.Bibby2.0
07-31-2013, 11:54 PM
Meanwhile amazing players (lebron) can still getg MVP's on bad teams (Cavs)

ArmLaker
08-01-2013, 12:12 AM
Finals MVP's don't necessarily go to extraordinary players always (like Billups). A team can be packed with very good players, not necessarily goat material and someone still has to get FMVP.

Kobe is on people's top 5 list for longevity. I just have a tough time saying someone can be top 5 all time goat when they were never even the best player in the NBA during their respective era.

I beg to differ, from '03 to '10....most fans, analysts, and reporters have widely considered Kobe to be the individual best player in the NBA.

I wouldn't have put him in the top 10 based on longevity alone either.

As for LeBron winning it in the CAVs, he was in a much weaker eastern conference and his Cavs teams infinitely take a massive dump on the Smush, Kwame, Walton Lakers. You should know, you saw them play 4 times a season against your team.

Speaking of your team, I miss the Lakers/Kings playoff bouts.

Bostonjorge
08-01-2013, 12:48 AM
Kobe is top 5 for sure. Top 3 when he hangs it up. He has the longevity to be #1 scoring leader all time. I can't see how players who have less rings or finals appearance could be above him. Winning is still the most important thing in any competive sport. Winning is the one stat u can only run up by being the best player in your era.

tredigs
08-01-2013, 12:49 AM
Kobe is top 5 for sure. Top 3 when he hangs it up. He has the longevity to be #1 scoring leader all time. I can't see how players who have less rings or finals appearance could be above him. Winning is still the most important thing in any competive sport. Winning is the one stat u can only run up by being the best player in your era.

Lurk more.

el hidalgo
08-01-2013, 02:06 AM
I beg to differ, from '03 to '10....most fans, analysts, and reporters have widely considered Kobe to be the individual best player in the NBA.

I wouldn't have put him in the top 10 based on longevity alone either.

As for LeBron winning it in the CAVs, he was in a much weaker eastern conference and his Cavs teams infinitely take a massive dump on the Smush, Kwame, Walton Lakers. You should know, you saw them play 4 times a season against your team.

Speaking of your team, I miss the Lakers/Kings playoff bouts.

Way to conveniently leave off Lamar Odom, a boradline allstar. Lamar was better than any player on either team aside from kobe and lebron. Lebron's teams were equally as bad as Kobe's. Kobe just can't carry a weak cast. period. LeBron is that good.

JWorthy42
08-01-2013, 02:12 AM
I don't understand why some Lakers fan take it so personal when people don't put Kobe in the Top 5. I mean, do you realize the greatness he is going up against? Kobe being in the Top 10 is already a HUMONGOUS achievement.

If I am starting a franchise from scratch, and I get to choose a player to start off I would easily pick these over Bryant:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Duncan (I can see a case for Kobe over TD)

Simple as that. Kobe is great, he is VERY VERY good and it is his longevity that makes him exceptionally remarkable but why can't you just accept that some people had better peaks or overall careers than him? There is nothing wrong with that.

You can bring up rings all you want, but rings shouldn't count towards a player's individual ranking. Thats foolish.

JWorthy42
08-01-2013, 02:14 AM
Way to conveniently leave off Lamar Odom, a boradline allstar. Lamar was better than any player on either team aside from kobe and lebron. Lebron's teams were equally as bad as Kobe's. Kobe just can't carry a weak cast. period. LeBron is that good.

I think you need to consider the fact that the East is just really weak in comparison to the West. Also, although on paper Lebron's team didn't have that much talent, they fit really well. He was surrounded by 3 point shooters which fit his play style. You feel me?

Look at Miami now, they have Lebron + Bosh/Andersen + 3 point shooters everywhere. Wade is not even that much of a factor at this point.

Its more about Lebron's awesome unselfish play style that made the Cavs good rather than talent level. :)

el hidalgo
08-01-2013, 02:18 AM
I think you need to consider the fact that the East is just really weak in comparison to the West. Also, although on paper Lebron's team didn't have that much talent, they fit really well. He was surrounded by 3 point shooters which fit his play style. You feel me?

Look at Miami now, they have Lebron + Bosh/Andersen + 3 point shooters everywhere. Wade is not even that much of a factor at this point.

Its more about Lebron's awesome unselfish play style that made the Cavs good rather than talent level. :)
They fit his play style because he is so damn good at attacking then dishing the ball to 3 point shooters. It is a quality of his that makes him so good. His ability to hit the open 3 ball is some ridiculous unselfish play. fun to watch.

JWorthy42
08-01-2013, 02:21 AM
They fit his play style because he is so damn good at attacking then dishing the ball to 3 point shooters. It is a quality of his that makes him so good. His ability to hit the open 3 ball is some ridiculous unselfish play. fun to watch.

Read the last sentence in my post :laugh2:

Bostonjorge
08-03-2013, 04:58 AM
Columnists and Bloggers Criticize Kobe Bryant For AttentionBLAIRHICKS 12 hours ago on Lake Show Life
Every year without fail we see the peanut gallery of sports writers come out with their obligatory “Kobe Bryant isn’t as great as you think he is” article. From established columnists to desperate to get their name out there bloggers, the refrain is the same – Kobe isn’t Jordan, Lebron is better than Kobe, Kobe isn’t clutch, Kobe was a sidekick for the first three titles yada yada yada.
Enough already! We get it. You need eyeballs to your website or your article, you’ll write about Kobe.
Its the oldest trick in the book. Its the basketball equivalent of going into Harlem with racist placards tied to your body Bruce Willis style in ‘Die Hard With a Vengeance’. Its sure to garner attention.
How did we get here?
Kobe Bryant is an easy target. There’s no historical player ever who’s been involved in so many important aspects of the story of the NBA. Bryant’s career bashes violently into the important themes that form the overall narrative of the history of the league.
There are numerous areas where his name creates controversy, discussion, and comparison.
He’s the first guard ever drafted out of high school.He’s the youngest All Star starter ever. He’s the last player to start an All Star Game but not start for his own team. He wasn’t 1st team all rookie but won the Rookie game MVP. He scored 30 on Jordan as a 19 year old and dropped 42 in the first half against him as a 24 year old, in both cases ignoring his teammates. He openly stated he wanted to be the greatest ever while the titleholder was still playing.
He rubbed some people the wrong way.
Even though he averaged 28.5 points a game to Shaq’s 28.7 during the 2000-01 season, and lead the team in assists and steals, was second on the team in rebounds, was the primary ball handler, perimeter defender and crunch time scorer, was he still a sidekick?
Is the 29 ppg, 7 reb, and 6 assists for the entire playoffs that year better than practically any other star’s best playoff season?
There’s always debate about his impact.
Was he better than Jordan? And if he’s not better was he at least more skilled offensively? Were Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, and Tracy McGrady his equals in the early 00′s? Did their dominance affect our perception of Kobe? Is Dwyane Wade his equal? When did Lebron James surpass Kobe as the league’s best player, and is he going to be better than him historically? Kevin Durant is a better scorer! Carmelo Anthony is more clutch! Tim Duncan is the player of the generation! James Harden has surpassed him! Russell Westbrook has Kobe’s killer instinct! Chris Paul is as competitive! Who’s the greatest Laker?
We compare every relevant player from the 1980′s to the present day to Kobe Bryant. That speaks volumes about the legend he’s crafted whether you like him, love him, or loathe him.
Let’s just lay out the resume for one last time for the haters that have come to bury someone going into their 18th season and coming off yet another 1st Team All NBA season.
Bryant has tied the record with the most 1st Team All NBA nods ever (11) and overall All NBA nods (15). He has scored the 2nd most points ever in a game. Has the record for most threes in a game, is third all time in 40 point and 50 point games, and is tied for 2nd in 60 point games.
He is tied for most 1st Team All Defense nods (9) and 2nd most nods overall (12). He’s won the most All Star MVP’s (4). He’ll retire as the all time leading scorer in the playoffs. He’ll finish top 2 in scoring, top ten in free throws,3′s and top 15 in steals. He has two scoring titles, 1 MVP, and 2 Finals MVP’s. Lastly he’s won 5 titles, made it to 7 finals, and 8 conference finals in a historically competitive conference.
There aren’t 4 other players with that resume.
Finally, let’s hear from notorious Laker hater Bill Simmons, who said in the immortal ‘Book of Basketball’, “…Kobe never reached Jordan’s ceiling as a player, but his career – the totality – might end up being greater.”
My point exactly.
There are so many great topics to opine on during the dead space between the free agency period and the opening of NBA training camps, just don’t exploit Kobe Bryant’s name and legacy to do it - like I have just done lol.


Best read ever

tredigs
08-03-2013, 05:26 AM
rude

Bostonjorge
08-03-2013, 05:30 AM
Honest question. Are you ********?

??? I cut and pasted it from fansided app. If u didn't read the article it say's there are not 4 other players with Kobe's résumé. This is a top 5 thread right?

bagwell368
08-03-2013, 09:37 AM
Kobe is top 5 for sure.

No.


Top 3 when he hangs it up. He has the longevity to be #1 scoring leader all time.

He has a shot at Jordan, he has no chance at Jabbar.


I can't see how players who have less rings or finals appearance could be above him.

Rings are largely an accident of time and place. K.C. Jones has 8 rings, you want to make an argument that he's better than larry Bird?


Winning is still the most important thing in any competive sport. Winning is the one stat u can only run up by being the best player in your era.

Ridiculous.

I have no idea how you can see the "read" you posted as any sort of objective piece.

dodie53
08-03-2013, 10:18 AM
jordan,
jabbar,
magic,
oscar,
russell

3RDASYSTEM
08-03-2013, 10:35 AM
I beg to differ, from '03 to '10....most fans, analysts, and reporters have widely considered Kobe to be the individual best player in the NBA.

I wouldn't have put him in the top 10 based on longevity alone either.

As for LeBron winning it in the CAVs, he was in a much weaker eastern conference and his Cavs teams infinitely take a massive dump on the Smush, Kwame, Walton Lakers. You should know, you saw them play 4 times a season against your team.

Speaking of your team, I miss the Lakers/Kings playoff bouts.

a lot of players outside the nba never seemed to think that, it was KG, DUNCAN,IVERSON,SHAQ,WADE,TMAC,BRON,DIRK and then finally in 03' he started getting recognized for his hard work ethic and his 6th man role turned full time starter but from 03-10' it was different players who could have that claim also

this reminds me of the T PARKER debate of how he is 10yrs in and is now a top PG or player in the league, to me he has been the same player in 07' FINALS with a tad improvement on jump shot, nothing top 3 or whatever

neither PARKER or bean can carry a squad deep into playoffs without major help and best coaching

i'll give you 06' and 08' but outside of that I don't remember him being supergood(good scoring streaks no doubt), and in 08' that was his 12th season, a lot of experts and outside fans were calling it a lifetime achievement award for winning that MVP, I could see had he won it in 09 and 10' then in 13' and make it 4 total, but its only 1 in 17yrs

funniest **** ever is a top 10 best player ever winning the NBA MVP in his 12th season, I find it hard to believe that the best player playing for LAKERS could only win 1 NBA MVP in a 7-8yr stretch, history is on his side bigtime and he has 2 scoring titles and 1 NBA MVP, playing 17yrs for LAKERS and also where MAGIC won 3 in like 12yrs and ALCINDOR won like 5 with LA in 15 or so yrs,even SHAQ won 1 in 8yrs there

this guy is so vastly overrated its a travesty

3RDASYSTEM
08-03-2013, 10:49 AM
Columnists and Bloggers Criticize Kobe Bryant For AttentionBLAIRHICKS 12 hours ago on Lake Show Life
Every year without fail we see the peanut gallery of sports writers come out with their obligatory “Kobe Bryant isn’t as great as you think he is” article. From established columnists to desperate to get their name out there bloggers, the refrain is the same – Kobe isn’t Jordan, Lebron is better than Kobe, Kobe isn’t clutch, Kobe was a sidekick for the first three titles yada yada yada.
Enough already! We get it. You need eyeballs to your website or your article, you’ll write about Kobe.
Its the oldest trick in the book. Its the basketball equivalent of going into Harlem with racist placards tied to your body Bruce Willis style in ‘Die Hard With a Vengeance’. Its sure to garner attention.
How did we get here?
Kobe Bryant is an easy target. There’s no historical player ever who’s been involved in so many important aspects of the story of the NBA. Bryant’s career bashes violently into the important themes that form the overall narrative of the history of the league.
There are numerous areas where his name creates controversy, discussion, and comparison.
He’s the first guard ever drafted out of high school.He’s the youngest All Star starter ever. He’s the last player to start an All Star Game but not start for his own team. He wasn’t 1st team all rookie but won the Rookie game MVP. He scored 30 on Jordan as a 19 year old and dropped 42 in the first half against him as a 24 year old, in both cases ignoring his teammates. He openly stated he wanted to be the greatest ever while the titleholder was still playing.
He rubbed some people the wrong way.
Even though he averaged 28.5 points a game to Shaq’s 28.7 during the 2000-01 season, and lead the team in assists and steals, was second on the team in rebounds, was the primary ball handler, perimeter defender and crunch time scorer, was he still a sidekick?
Is the 29 ppg, 7 reb, and 6 assists for the entire playoffs that year better than practically any other star’s best playoff season?
There’s always debate about his impact.
Was he better than Jordan? And if he’s not better was he at least more skilled offensively? Were Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, and Tracy McGrady his equals in the early 00′s? Did their dominance affect our perception of Kobe? Is Dwyane Wade his equal? When did Lebron James surpass Kobe as the league’s best player, and is he going to be better than him historically? Kevin Durant is a better scorer! Carmelo Anthony is more clutch! Tim Duncan is the player of the generation! James Harden has surpassed him! Russell Westbrook has Kobe’s killer instinct! Chris Paul is as competitive! Who’s the greatest Laker?
We compare every relevant player from the 1980′s to the present day to Kobe Bryant. That speaks volumes about the legend he’s crafted whether you like him, love him, or loathe him.
Let’s just lay out the resume for one last time for the haters that have come to bury someone going into their 18th season and coming off yet another 1st Team All NBA season.
Bryant has tied the record with the most 1st Team All NBA nods ever (11) and overall All NBA nods (15). He has scored the 2nd most points ever in a game. Has the record for most threes in a game, is third all time in 40 point and 50 point games, and is tied for 2nd in 60 point games.
He is tied for most 1st Team All Defense nods (9) and 2nd most nods overall (12). He’s won the most All Star MVP’s (4). He’ll retire as the all time leading scorer in the playoffs. He’ll finish top 2 in scoring, top ten in free throws,3′s and top 15 in steals. He has two scoring titles, 1 MVP, and 2 Finals MVP’s. Lastly he’s won 5 titles, made it to 7 finals, and 8 conference finals in a historically competitive conference.
There aren’t 4 other players with that resume.
Finally, let’s hear from notorious Laker hater Bill Simmons, who said in the immortal ‘Book of Basketball’, “…Kobe never reached Jordan’s ceiling as a player, but his career – the totality – might end up being greater.”
My point exactly.
There are so many great topics to opine on during the dead space between the free agency period and the opening of NBA training camps, just don’t exploit Kobe Bryant’s name and legacy to do it - like I have just done lol.


Best read ever

why did bean wait until 01' to not be a sidekick? or even further why did a player avg 28.5ppg tell a HOF coach he was tired of being a 'sidekick'? why didn't he just avg 28ppg his rookie year since he did all that other stuff first or youngest? 6th man runner up turned fulltime starter but was starting for the allstar team in WEST(pure comedy)

no he didn't win ROOKIE game MVP, once again it went to the better individual player in that game

once again I make the claim over and over that he has impressive scoring streaks, nothing more nothing less as you stated the 42 or so he dropped on a 40yr old JORDAN, impressive from the backupguard turned starter

like you said he was the 'last player to start on his allstar team but not for his regular season team', now I have to say I think he is the 'only' player in history to do that and be labeled a best top 10 player of alltime

that's why I know he's overrated because no player can ever get away with that in another market, only in LA

this is the same guy who was up 3-1 against PHX only to get mad and quit, then only to hear his fien fan base talk about his will and killer instinct and refuse to lose attitude, but he quit in the playoffs or he just didn't shoot anymore in 2nd half after dropping like 50pts prior game

he also quit on that same fan base that sucks up to him, see 07' summer where he was rocking that BULLS jersey and trying to angle a trade to CHI and team up with DENG

and you are right he has been part of many fixed important moment in history of nba, see the 02' series where he elbows BIBBY and all that other referee fixture

birdmann5
08-03-2013, 10:49 AM
It's so hard to say. The PF position can be ranked like this.

Best true PF-Malone
Best stretch 4 - Dirk
Best undersized PF - Barkley
Best PF / C - Duncan
Best Defensive PF - KG

Bostonjorge
08-03-2013, 05:25 PM
Kobe is tied for most all nba first team selections ever and tied for most defensive team selections ever. That puts kobe in any list let alone top 5.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2013, 05:50 PM
Kobe is tied for most all nba first team selections ever and tied for most defensive team selections ever. That puts kobe in any list let alone top 5.

no, but its why he is top 10. Longevity. His peak doesn't stack up with a bunch of other all timers.

sammyvine
08-03-2013, 05:59 PM
no, but its why he is top 10. Longevity. His peak doesn't stack up with a bunch of other all timers.
in your opinion

nba greats seem to think differently/
i actually kinda agree though

sunsfan88
08-03-2013, 06:18 PM
Nobody that's playing in the NBA right now or played in the NBA in 5-10 years belongs on that list imo. LeBron/Kobe/Duncan could potentially get there but they are not there yet.

Shaq is a great player but he ain't top 5 either.

Jordan
Magic
Oscar
Bird
Wilt

Hawkeye15
08-03-2013, 06:23 PM
in your opinion

nba greats seem to think differently/
i actually kinda agree though

in mosts opinions. Where have NBA greats listed their top 5 ever? Kobe is not a top 5 player of all time. His best years simply don't stack up with others.

Hawkeye15
08-03-2013, 06:24 PM
Nobody that's playing in the NBA right now or played in the NBA in 5-10 years belongs on that list imo. LeBron/Kobe/Duncan could potentially get there but they are not there yet.

Shaq is a great player but he ain't top 5 either.

Jordan
Magic
Oscar
Bird
Wilt

Oscar? Bird? I disagree. I don't think Kobe or Duncan are moving any higher. Duncan is top 8, Kobe top 10. LeBron obviously has plenty of peak/prime years left, and is already arguably top 9-11. So he WILL climb.

krisxsong
08-03-2013, 07:09 PM
I know right? But they'll put Lebron at 3 with 2 rings. Psd at its finest!

Dumb post.

He said when LeBron hangs them up, now if he retires before this season okay sure you have a point but how do you know he won't win more?

He also said IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER, will you people learn to read?

Also, Larry Bird has 3 rings. If Bird is most def a top 5 player all time with no arguments, why is it so ridiculous that LeBron could be a top 5 with "only" 2 rings?

krisxsong
08-03-2013, 07:11 PM
Kobe is tied for most all nba first team selections ever and tied for most defensive team selections ever. That puts kobe in any list let alone top 5.

Comparing personal accolades when talking about top 5 players all time is really moronic.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 07:12 PM
When its all said and done, 1 and 2 are:

Michael
Lebron

Then 3-5 gets tough

Magic/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq/Duncan/Bird

I have no clue how to cut those 5 to 3:laugh:


Bird doesn't belong in the top 5 of any rational fans discussion. The only 3 that are pure locks are:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Not having Magic in your top 5 and saying Lebron will pass in to be a top five player within two years is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard, and really shows how much you envy the Lakers.

Like I said, you cannot name me 10 or more players with Kobe's longevity, talent and skill.

You want numbers, look at this year.

More than 27 ppg, shooting roughly 47%, about 6 rpg, 6 apg all at the age of 34 and in his 17th year no less. I can't think of anyone other than the goat who is capable of such things.

As I've previously stated, he'll get that recognition when he retires or is dead.Not here on PSD.


Why is it laughable? Dude is in his 17th year, has a ton of miles, and played over 38 minutes a game for 78 games and had one of his best year.
Now Kobe is on steroids?LMFAO!!!!

10 with better peaks then Kobe, taking into account both sides of the floor?

Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, David Robinson, Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Barkley, Malone. Then there's all the others with comparable or arguably better peak play; T-Mac, Dr. J, Oscar, Russell, West, Baylor, Walton, Garnett, Moses Malone, I could go on.:facepalm:


no, but its why he is top 10. Longevity. His peak doesn't stack up with a bunch of other all timers.Dude, your hate for Kobe is through the roof.




The Lebron **** stroking going on in here is disgusting.

Bostonjorge
08-03-2013, 07:17 PM
Kobe Bryant top 3 all time

15 time all NBA team tied for 1st ever

12 defensive team tied for 1st ever

3rd most in 40+ and 50+ point games 133 and 26

2nd in 60+ games 5

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

4th all time leading scorer and still moving up

3rd all time playoff scoring not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

1 MVP

2 final's MVP

7 finals appearance's

8 conference finals

Most importantly 5 rings

Just in case u guys didn't read the article.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Kobe Bryant top 3 all time

15 time all NBA team tied for 1st ever

12 defensive team tied for 1st ever

3rd most in 40+ and 50+ point games 133 and 26

2nd in 60+ games 5

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

4th all time leading scorer and still moving up

3rd all time playoff scoring not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

1 MVP

2 final's MVP

7 finals appearance's

8 conference finals

Most importantly 5 rings

Just in case u guys didn't read the article.

Kobe with out a doubt will be top 5 when his career is over, regardless of the rankings here on ProSportsLeBron. This is the only site on the web where you will find posters have Kobe outside the top 7 while having Lebron in the top ten. Truly a clueless sports forum.

ArmLaker
08-03-2013, 09:15 PM
As long as Kobe is playing at a high level, he sure as hell has a shot of cracking the top 5 if he isn't in it already.

The hate for Bryant is ridiculous though. Quite honestly, I don't even know why.

sunsfan88
08-03-2013, 10:53 PM
Oscar? Bird? I disagree. I don't think Kobe or Duncan are moving any higher. Duncan is top 8, Kobe top 10. LeBron obviously has plenty of peak/prime years left, and is already arguably top 9-11. So he WILL climb.

How is Oscar not top 5? He's a champion and MVP who had CAREER numbers of 26 pts, 7 rebounds and 10 assists a game. That's a ridiculous stat line to just have in one game but that's Oscar averaged. He's absolutely a top 5 player because he was an all around great player.

He was a triple double machine, a guy who can score inside and outside. Nobody's even come close to his record of 181 triple doubles.

MTar786
08-03-2013, 11:38 PM
lebron is already top 10 all time. i dont think he can pass shaq all time but as much as i hate to say it he could pass kobe. I currently have him right behind kobe.

Showtime Steve
08-03-2013, 11:43 PM
By position, magic jordan Bron duncan wilt.
Top5 id take out duncan for kobe

BenFrank
08-03-2013, 11:53 PM
I'ma go with my top 5 Fav players.. so don't flame me if u don't agree..

Scottie Pippen
Hakeem Olajuwon
Allen Iverson
Oscar Robertson
Pistol Pete

Hawkeye15
08-04-2013, 12:02 AM
:laugh:


Not having Magic in your top 5 and saying Lebron will pass in to be a top five player within two years is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard, and really shows how much you envy the Lakers.
Not here on PSD.


Now Kobe is on steroids?LMFAO!!!!
:facepalm:

Dude, your hate for Kobe is through the roof.




The Lebron **** stroking going on in here is disgusting.

please understand, that I hold you in the same regard I do amoser1 or whatever his name is. I simply don't care in the slightest of what you think, you are a Kobe homer and your sole purpose here is to defend him, not talk basketball.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2013, 12:06 AM
Kobe Bryant top 3 all time

15 time all NBA team tied for 1st ever

12 defensive team tied for 1st ever

3rd most in 40+ and 50+ point games 133 and 26

2nd in 60+ games 5

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

4th all time leading scorer and still moving up

3rd all time playoff scoring not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

1 MVP

2 final's MVP

7 finals appearance's

8 conference finals

Most importantly 5 rings

Just in case u guys didn't read the article.

So, show me a single year in Kobe's career that was better than the peak year(s) the following put up:

MJ
Bron
Duncan
Malone
KAJ
Wilt
West
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
Oscar
KG
Bird
Magic
Frazier
Dirk

a few others....

Kobe is top 10 because of his longevity. He will never be top 5 because his peak simply didn't stack up with around 20 other all time players. Hence why he falls in the middle ground

magic0320
08-04-2013, 12:47 AM
lol so many kobe haters here. people who knows basketball will tell you kobe is top 5 all time. i think i rather respect former players, players, and coaches than fans who who like to think they know s h i t

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 12:55 AM
So, show me a single year in Kobe's career that was better than the peak year(s) the following put up:

MJ
Bron
Duncan
Malone
KAJ
Wilt
West
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
Oscar
KG
Bird
Magic
Frazier
Dirk

a few others....

Kobe is top 10 because of his longevity. He will never be top 5 because his peak simply didn't stack up with around 20 other all time players. Hence why he falls in the middle ground

Also show me on your list when any of those players played second fiddle or robin or backup role to any player at any time of they career other than being forced to the bench

even if any of those players came straight out of HS they wouldn't have been backups if drafted in the lottery

it doesn't matter about a peak over impact and game, he took everything from JORDAN but to me he's a version of his dad on the perimeter, a jack of all trades equates to a good player nothing of the players you mentioned

the lakers didn't tank for bean and he almost signed with CLIPPS and got traded to CHI all in same moment

and last but not least according to the ZEN master he wanted bean traded and wanted to keep SHAQ because as we all know the coach who has the most rings really knows best, or maybe you beg to differ?

if bean is top 10 best alltime to ever do it then FAVRE and JETER are that in NFL and MLB alltime and I don't feel that way at all, not even close but they are top 50-100 for most part

GREATNESS ONE
08-04-2013, 12:57 AM
So, show me a single year in Kobe's career that was better than the peak year(s) the following put up:

MJ
Bron
Duncan
Malone
KAJ
Wilt
West
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
Oscar
KG
Bird
Magic
Frazier
Dirk

a few others....

Kobe is top 10 because of his longevity. He will never be top 5 because his peak simply didn't stack up with around 20 other all time players. Hence why he falls in the middle ground


Hence why he will end up top 5, Kobe's longevity of peak is so dominant that if he can end is last few years solid and win another championship he will for sure fire be in almost everyone's top 5 list... Almost.

Right now on my personal list he is just barely out of the top 5.

We'll see what happens next..

Bostonjorge
08-04-2013, 01:01 AM
So, show me a single year in Kobe's career that was better than the peak year(s) the following put up:

MJ
Bron
Duncan
Malone
KAJ
Wilt
West
Shaq
Robinson
Barkley
Oscar
KG
Bird
Magic
Frazier
Dirk

a few others....

Kobe is top 10 because of his longevity. He will never be top 5 because his peak simply didn't stack up with around 20 other all time players. Hence why he falls in the middle ground

He is top 5 because of his career as a whole. Your only using plus/minus for ranking peak's. Plus/minus don't decide who are the best players and completely ignore everything else. Stats only matter win u win. Every great player want's to win average players want to boost stats to look better then they were. Kobe has the stats but more importantly he has the wins.

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 01:04 AM
Hence why he will end up top 5, Kobe's longevity of peak is so dominant that if he can end is last few years solid and win another championship he will for sure fire be in almost everyone's top 5 list... Almost.

Right now on my personal list he is just barely out of the top 5.

We'll see what happens next..

Once again its not about a peak its about how super good those players are and people try to put bean in that same group

he was a backup 6th man type, same as HARDEN did with OKC to HOU, how would HARDEN be compared to JORDAN if he had 3 rings? even if he took JORDAN's game like bean did he still wouldn't be nowhere near JORDAN, its the same way I look at bean

he gets major hype because he is in la market which is 1a with NY market, HARDEN went from like top 15 market in SEATTLE to like top 50 market in OKC to now top 5 market in TX, you see how much more pub he has gotten since playing for OLYMPIC team and making allnba 3rd team and going from like 17ppg to like 26ppg(basically bean like) and leading team to playoffs 8th seed like bean? more minutes more usage means bigger stats but its the same player/game/impact which equates to nothing top 10 best ever no matter longevity or PER or TS or eFG or abcdefghi123

I hear all the time that bean's peak or dominance was wasted because of that weak supporting AI-BRON like cast he had during 05-07' seasons

we all seen what AI-BRON did with similar supporting or worst cast, bean won 2 scoring titles in his father time 'prime' and 1 nba mvp in 17yrs and he's a top 5 player in a lot of peoples eyes and a top 10 in yours? how can longevity mean that much when its the same JORDAN gimmick game year in and out?

only in lakerland can this happen on a individual level and be ignored, just look through laker history on how they won multi nba mvp's in lesser years than bean or tied him in half the years

lakers took MINNY's 5 titles just to boost the allure of Hollywood, those belong to MINNY since they were won there right?

MIKAN = 5
bean-MAGIC-WEST = 11
RUSELL = 11


Why isn't MIKAN top 10 alltime? is it because he didn't shoot high enough FG pct? or was the competition even weaker since he was like the 'first' dominant big in the nba or the other league?

ElChinoLatino
08-04-2013, 01:23 AM
I know right? But they'll put Lebron at 3 with 2 rings. Psd at its finest!

Hey while you are at it, why don't you put Horry, Loscutoff, and Russell ahead of Kobe? They are obviously better by those standards.

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 01:25 AM
He is top 5 because of his career as a whole. Your only using plus/minus for ranking peak's. Plus/minus don't decide who are the best players and completely ignore everything else. Stats only matter win u win. Every great player want's to win average players want to boost stats to look better then they were. Kobe has the stats but more importantly he has the wins.

if bean is top 5 because of career as a whole then its 1000 pct without a reasonable doubt that JETER and FAVRE are top 5 MLB and NFL of alltime

now I want the most credible person on PSD to do a thread on JETER and FAVRE being a top 5 player best alltime and see how the vote pans out

no homers allowed only fans of other teams who value the player honestly

im sure it will be a landslide in not being top 5 nor 10

they try the same argument with JETER as best YANKEE all time and it reminds me of bean in lakerland

at least FAVRE won 3 straight MVP's(so he sort of gets a pass) so it's more like JETER vs bean or JETER/BRADY vs bean

BRADY was the same backup turned best player ever, just amazing sports stories from west coast to east coast

Hawkeye15
08-04-2013, 01:30 AM
lol so many kobe haters here. people who knows basketball will tell you kobe is top 5 all time. i think i rather respect former players, players, and coaches than fans who who like to think they know s h i t

prove your opinion. If you are taking the word of ex players, those who have showed complete ineptitude when picking a team, sorry if nobody cares.

Hawkeye15
08-04-2013, 01:32 AM
He is top 5 because of his career as a whole. Your only using plus/minus for ranking peak's. Plus/minus don't decide who are the best players and completely ignore everything else. Stats only matter win u win. Every great player want's to win average players want to boost stats to look better then they were. Kobe has the stats but more importantly he has the wins.

No, he is skimming top 10 because of his career as a whole. I am not using plus/minus at all. I am using statistics. Stats matter all of the time. It shows your impact. If you wish to credit Kobe for being part of the greatest NBA franchise in history, so be it. His numbers just don't stack up the the greats when we measure peak. If he had the normal time line of a career, he is around #25. But since his longevity is just ridiculous, he now enters the top 10 conversation.

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 01:34 AM
Hey while you are at it, why don't you put Horry, Loscutoff, and Russell ahead of Kobe? They are obviously better by those standards.

same reason why bean isn't top 5 nor 10 with 5 rings or longevity

same goes for those players mentioned, but HORRY and RUSSELL were very vital to teams title hopes, bean owes FISHER and HORRY big time, SHAQ also

RUSSELL had the coach who was recruiting the best talent and the league was small but RUSSELL won 11 in 13yrs no matter how short the playoff that's all time legendary

bean played 2nd fiddle to SHAQ for 3 rings and then won 2 rings as GASOL got robbed of co MVP in 10' FINALS, a good robin indeed, a scoring version of PIPPEN

Hawkeye15
08-04-2013, 01:38 AM
Hence why he will end up top 5, Kobe's longevity of peak is so dominant that if he can end is last few years solid and win another championship he will for sure fire be in almost everyone's top 5 list... Almost.

Right now on my personal list he is just barely out of the top 5.

We'll see what happens next..

Hence why is HE is top 10. A peak beat by 20+ others, limits how high you can be ranked eventually. His longevity is the only reason he is possibly considered in the top 10. He is not going any higher, he has too many miles, a bad achilles, and a poor team. His ranking is set, unless you believe LeBron is actually behind him still, in which case Kobe falls down a peg shortly (I believe Bron passed him already).

3RDASYSTEM
08-04-2013, 01:41 AM
No, he is skimming top 10 because of his career as a whole. I am not using plus/minus at all. I am using statistics. Stats matter all of the time. It shows your impact. If you wish to credit Kobe for being part of the greatest NBA franchise in history, so be it. His numbers just don't stack up the the greats when we measure peak. If he had the normal time line of a career, he is around #25. But since his longevity is just ridiculous, he now enters the top 10 conversation.

He does have the normal time line of a career but you and others seem to separate peak and all this other confusion to see what it really is

you said 25, I said top 40, how is that really a difference when im judging on a normal timeline, he isn't a super god to where im putting him on a different pedestal, no matter how much he is a mirror image of JORDAN

he is a GUARD version of his dad JELLYBEAN, nothing more nothing less, a decent jack of all trades who can score given a volume of shots

change his greatest franchise with DENVER or NETS or HORNETS

now do you see why I wouldn't rank him any different? he wouldn't have 5 rings neither would he have deep playoff runs like this, just 2 scoring titles and no playoffs or 1st rd exits

its what I saw in his career, 17yrs

like I said before if he is top 10 then no doubt FAVRE and JETER are top 10 and I feel they are nowhere close, FAVRE being closer than both

Jtirado16
08-04-2013, 01:46 AM
As of today I would have to say in no order


Kobe
MJ
Magic
Lebron
Kareem

Bostonjorge
08-04-2013, 01:48 AM
Also show me on your list when any of those players played second fiddle or robin or backup role to any player at any time of they career other than being forced to the bench

even if any of those players came straight out of HS they wouldn't have been backups if drafted in the lottery

it doesn't matter about a peak over impact and game, he took everything from JORDAN but to me he's a version of his dad on the perimeter, a jack of all trades equates to a good player nothing of the players you mentioned

the lakers didn't tank for bean and he almost signed with CLIPPS and got traded to CHI all in same moment

and last but not least according to the ZEN master he wanted bean traded and wanted to keep SHAQ because as well know the coach who has the most rings really knows best, or maybe you beg to differ?

if bean is top 10 best alltime to ever do it then FAVRE and JETER are that in NFL and MLB alltime and I don't feel that way at all, not even close but they are top 50-100 for most part

Kobe was the first guard ever draft out of high school. He dropped 31 in the rookie game leading all scorers. At 19 he drop 33 against jordan. His second year in the league he started in the all star game and started in it ever since. All this as a back up.

In 2000-01 kobe averaged 28.5 pts to shaq's 28.7. Kobe lead team in assist and steals second in reb the primary ball handler and perimeter defender. During crunch time shaq would go to bench and kobe would lead team. During the playoffs he averaged 29 pts 7 reb and 6 assist. Does this sound like a robin to u?

Jtirado16
08-04-2013, 01:52 AM
Also show me on your list when any of those players played second fiddle or robin or backup role to any player at any time of they career other than being forced to the bench

even if any of those players came straight out of HS they wouldn't have been backups if drafted in the lottery

it doesn't matter about a peak over impact and game, he took everything from JORDAN but to me he's a version of his dad on the perimeter, a jack of all trades equates to a good player nothing of the players you mentioned

the lakers didn't tank for bean and he almost signed with CLIPPS and got traded to CHI all in same moment

and last but not least according to the ZEN master he wanted bean traded and wanted to keep SHAQ because as well know the coach who has the most rings really knows best, or maybe you beg to differ?

if bean is top 10 best alltime to ever do it then FAVRE and JETER are that in NFL and MLB alltime and I don't feel that way at all, not even close but they are top 50-100 for most part

Kobe was the first guard ever draft out of high school. He dropped 31 in the rookie game leading all scorers. At 19 he drop 33 against jordan. His second year in the league he started in the all star game and started in it ever since. All this as a back up.

In 2000-01 kobe averaged 28.5 pts to shaq's 28.7. Kobe lead team in assist and steals second in reb the primary ball handler and perimeter defender. During crunch time shaq would go to bench and kobe would lead team. During the playoffs he averaged 29 pts 7 reb and 6 assist. Does this sound like a robin to u?

Just gonna say a few words to this

Thank You for actually understanding what everyone else seems to not be able to

ElChinoLatino
08-04-2013, 03:39 AM
We both know deep down your bottom list is laughable.

As for the top ones, magic was never great defensively. Hakeem's peak was marvellous but outside of those two title runs, I really don't see how he has a case over Kobe. Barkley once again wasn't great defensively. Wilt, Kareem, shaq, mj, all have legit cases over Kobe. Duncan's dominance was great but I don't believe it was as consistent as Kobe's, he never went to back to back finals let alone 3 in a row(twice) like Kobe has. Lol at Robinson. Malone would've had a case had he won.

I just don't see how at least half of these guys were better than Kobe peak or not.

If you're talking about numbers, these guys or at least most of them were bigger than Kobe and played closer to the basket thus having better fg % more blocks and rebounds.

Shaq, not Kobe, only won once three in a row, not twice like you said. Everyone knows Kobe was second fiddle during that time so don't point that out as he was the main reason of the threepeat. No one could stop the dominant force that was Shaq during those years. Unlike Kobe, Duncan won 2 MVP and 3 Finals MVP and carried his whole team on his back on his first two, in all of those Finals, Duncan was clearly the best player. Kobe on the other hand only has 1 FMVP which he could say that he was the clear cut MVP since a case can be made for Pau in 2010.

ElChinoLatino
08-04-2013, 03:54 AM
Yeah let's completely ignore who Kobe had to face in a much tougher west like the blazers, kings and twin tower spurs that is Duncan and Robinson to even make the finals.

Lets also ignore the late 00s spurs, suns, and jazz. Who the hell are te celtics anyways? Any handicap would've beat them too, they suck.

But let's bring up the fact he had shaq and a very good big man in gasol to help win those titles because every other legend did it alone.

I mean who did Duncan or lebron have? Who did mj have? Who did magic and bird have? They all carried the teams alone to a title while Kobe stood there and looked pretty.

Kobe sucks he's not top 10. His peak sucks and he's a rapist above all else.

Just two that I can recall off the top of my head, Tim Duncan 2003 and Hakeem in 1994.

Bostonjorge
08-04-2013, 04:04 AM
Shaq, not Kobe, only won once three in a row, not twice like you said. Everyone knows Kobe was second fiddle during that time so don't point that out as he was the main reason of the threepeat. No one could stop the dominant force that was Shaq during those years. Unlike Kobe, Duncan won 2 MVP and 3 Finals MVP and carried his whole team on his back on his first two, in all of those Finals, Duncan was clearly the best player. Kobe on the other hand only has 1 FMVP which he could say that he was the clear cut MVP since a case can be made for Pau in 2010.

Kobe has been to the finals 3 times in a row twice. His three peat and his back to back and a runner up to Boston. Duncan never even went back to back appearances like stated before. Duncan on his second championship team in 2003 he had Robinson, ginobli,Parker, Steve smith, Bowen, captain jack and Steve Kerr. Duncan was there best player but he didn't carry that team on his back. Duncan has always been surrounded by all star type players his whole career yet kobe still wins more.

ElChinoLatino
08-04-2013, 04:45 AM
Kobe has been to the finals 3 times in a row twice. His three peat and his back to back and a runner up to Boston. Duncan never even went back to back appearances like stated before. Duncan on his second championship team in 2003 he had Robinson, ginobli,Parker, Steve smith, Bowen, captain jack and Steve Kerr. Duncan was there best player but he didn't carry that team on his back. Duncan has always been surrounded by all star type players his whole career yet kobe still wins more.

Oh really? Then what do you call leading in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks during the whole series? Yea apart the 37 year old Robinson and 20 year old Parker being the second and third best players (no particular order) in the team, I'm pretty sure "carrying the team on his back" is an understatement.

I'll admit Steve Kerr and Steve Smith did a tremendous job in impacting the game with their collective total of a whooping 5 shots taken (3 made). It is fascinating how all of those you mentioned, except for one, shot below .400. I can really now see how much help Duncan was getting with all of these bonafide stars at THAT time. </sarcasm>

Bostonjorge
08-04-2013, 05:41 AM
Oh really? Then what do you call leading in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks during the whole series? Yea apart the 37 year old Robinson and 20 year old Parker being the second and third best players (no particular order) in the team, I'm pretty sure "carrying the team on his back" is an understatement.

I'll admit Steve Kerr and Steve Smith did a tremendous job in impacting the game with their collective total of a whooping 5 shots taken (3 made). It is fascinating how all of those you mentioned, except for one, shot below .400. I can really now see how much help Duncan was getting with all of these bonafide stars at THAT time. </sarcasm>

Duncan was dominat but Parker was playing at an all star level. Parker got to the lane against the lakers at will. That was Parker's coming out year in the playoffs. Captain jack also had some big scoring games led them in scoreing in a couple games and played awesome D with Bowen and Robinson. Kerr also had that series against Dallas. The west is were these so called scrubs shined. The finals against the nets Parker took it to Kidd even out played him at times. Duncan did dominate that year but he had help and Parker became an all star type player.

ElChinoLatino
08-04-2013, 01:48 PM
Duncan was dominat but Parker was playing at an all star level. Parker got to the lane against the lakers at will. That was Parker's coming out year in the playoffs. Captain jack also had some big scoring games led them in scoreing in a couple games and played awesome D with Bowen and Robinson. Kerr also had that series against Dallas. The west is were these so called scrubs shined. The finals against the nets Parker took it to Kidd even out played him at times. Duncan did dominate that year but he had help and Parker became an all star type player.

Parker was not playing at an All-Star level, maybe borderline, but definitely not All-Star. He shot that Finals series a pathetic .386 FG% and and even worse .609 from the line. I thought that being a PG, you are suppose to distribute the ball and lead in assists, yet he averaged one less assist during the series than Duncan. Please tell me how he got to the lane "at will" if he shot horribly as stated above.

Stephen Jackson shot even worse than Parker at a .377 clip and at the line with .500. He was so pathetic in that series that the only statistical category that he was able to consistently lead the Spurs in was turnovers. His only good scoring game was in game 6 (final game), but other than that he was a scrub throughout the whole series, comparable to Mike Miller in 2012.
Steve Kerr didn't do **** in the Finals.

Parker outplayed Kidd? Kidd outplayed him in points, assists, rebounds, steals. Please tell me how he get outplayed. And don't tell me that "he got to the rim/lane at will" line because that obviously does not fly with a .386 FG%, and even if he did, he shot .609% from it.