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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft Finals: Death Star (1) VS Santa Monica (3)



PatsSoxKnicks
07-26-2013, 01:51 PM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Death Star has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.


C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (40 mins) | Bill Laimbeer (8)
PF: Bill Laimbeer (28) | Carmelo Anthony (16) | Rick Mahorn (4) | Tommy Heinsohn (0)
SF: Paul Pierce (33) | Carmelo Anthony (8)| Bruce Bowen (7)
SG: Jerry Sloan (30) | Paul Pierce (5) | Bruce Bowen (13) | Steve Smith (0)
PG: Mark Price (38)| Gus Williams (10) | BJ Armstrong (0)

First off, congrats to Santa Monica on making the Finals. They built a great team and Death Star is excited to match up with them and hopefully take home the Larry O'Brien trophy.

PG: Mookie Blaylock/Doug Christie/Sam Jones vs. Mark Price
We assume Mookie is going to guard Price but no matter who is guarding him, we feel Price can take advantage. While both Blaylock and Christie were great defenders, Price is an excellent playmaker/shooter and Death Star will continue to run the P&R with Price and either Laimbeer or Kareem. We’ll also let Price get out and run in transition with Kareem and Pierce as a trailer to hit the 3. While Santa Monica can maybe slow down Price, they won’t stop him. He’ll get his points and assists. Also, it’s worth mentioning that when Price and Blaylock matched up in the playoffs, Price got the better of him by quite a bit: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=blaylmo01&p2=pricema01#stats_playoffs

We understand Mookie wasn’t quite in his prime yet but there’s no reason to expect that he wasn’t playing great D in 92 and Price still came out on top so we like this matchup to our advantage.

SG: Sam Jones vs. Jerry Sloan
We feel 6x All-Defensive team Jerry Sloan can slow down Sam Jones and in any case, Jones isn’t going to beat us with the talent on the floor for both teams. Honestly, this matchup is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Moving along.

SF: Pierce vs. Durant
We feel this is where Death Star starts to take advantage. While Durant might be more talented, he lacks Pierce’s experience, toughness, physicality and championship. Durant does not know how to win yet. While we have no doubt he will eventually win a ship as the main man, he’s not there yet. It’s still a learning process for him. Pierce has already experienced all of this and won his ship. He’s had moments of true greatness: outdueling Lebron in game 7 in 2008 and going toe to toe with Kobe in the Finals in 2010. We feel Death Star’s advantage in this matchup is Paul Pierce’s experience (the guy has a Finals MVP in case everyone forgot). In addition, Pierce is just a more physical player on both ends. We’ve seen Durant struggle at times with more physical players, though there is no doubt that is not happening as much as it used to. We also feel that Pierce has a slight advantage on defense where Durant hasn’t quite gotten to 08-10 Pierce’s defensive levels yet. We feel Pierce’s experience and slightly better defense overcome whatever talent differences there are. We are not uncomfortable giving Pierce the edge here.

PF: Laimbeer vs. Cowens
We believe this matchup is fairly even. While Cowens has an MVP (illegitimate I might add, should’ve been Kareem’s), their peak numbers are fairly equal. Cowens scored a bit more but he also played in a weaker era and had a career high efficiency of 53.3% TS% (with a number of years below 50% TS%). Comparing their top PERs, Cowens peaked at 19.3, while Laimbeer peaked at 19.2. Cowens had 4 different seasons where he crossed the 10+ WS mark while Laimbeer had 3 but Laimbeer makes up for that with some high efficiency seasons peaking at a 59% TS%. We believe Laimbeer is a better compliment to the rest of our team than Cowens is to Santa Monica as Cowens is more of a volume scorer while Laimbeer is a perfect high efficiency complimentary player to our high scorers. We consider this a wash but in the context of both teams, we feel Laimbeer is a better fit than Cowens is for Santa Monica.

C: Kareem vs. Hakeem
We feel we have an advantage here. While Hakeem is a great player, we just feel Kareem is better. Kareem has 6 MVPs, 6 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, 19 All-Star games, has led the league in Win Shares 9x, has led the league in WS/48 9x, has led the league in Offensive WS 6x, has made the All-Defensive team 11x and has led the league in PER 9x. And it doesn’t stop there: Kareem has led the playoffs in Win Shares 3x, has led the playoffs in WS/48 5x, has led the playoffs in Offensive Win Shares 3x, has led the playoffs in Defensive Win Shares 1x, has led the playoffs in TS% 2x, and has led the playoffs in PER 7x. In comparison, Hakeem has 1 MVP, 2 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, 12 All-Star games, 2 DPOYs (which didn’t exist for much of Kareem’s career), and has NEVER led the league in PER, Win Shares, or Offensive Win Shares. Hakeem was no doubt a great defender as he led the league in defensive Win Shares 4x but outside of this, he has no notable regular season accomplishments besides his 1 MVP. Hakeem gets absolutely destroyed by Kareem in the regular season. Now we all know Hakeem made his money in the postseason and yet his accomplishments still pale in comparison to Kareem. Hakeem led the playoffs in Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares and Defensive Win Shares 1x and led the playoffs in PER 2x while he never led the playoffs in TS%. He did carry the heavy load in 95 (with a playoff leading USG%) and he’s famous for dragging his crappy Rockets team in 94 to the title.

However, something often forgotten is that Kareem came one game 7 away from accomplishing the same thing as Hakeem did in 94. Oscar was at that point, in his final season and at age 35 was frankly, not that good anymore. His stat line that year was 12.4/4/6.4 on 50.2% TS% with a below average PER of 14.2. In the playoffs, his TS% was essentially the same and he had an average PER. So at that point, Oscar was well past his prime, leaving Kareem to lead the Bucks on his own. And outside of Mickey Davis (who averaged 16 mpg), no one on the Bucks had a TS% above 52% (below league average in most years). In the playoffs in 74, Kareem averaged 32-16-5 on a 58.3% TS% while leading the Bucks to the Finals against the Celts led by Cowens. I’m sure many may remember the fact that the Cowens led Celtics won the series, however Kareem pretty much owned him for the entire series. Cowens averaged 22.7ppg-9.9rpg-4.6apg-0.3bpg in addition to 4.9 fouls per game (including fouling out twice) with an efficiency of 46.95% TS% (atrocious efficiency). On the other side, Kareem averaged 32.6ppg-12.1rpg-5.4apg-2.1bpg on a 55.2% TS%. Kareem had his way with Cowens (who guarded him one on one) until game 7 where the Celtics triple teamed Kareem and Kareem’s teammates couldn’t do squat which led to a Celtics win.

The reason I mention this is because I’m sure at times Santa Monica will want to have Cowens guard Kareem and as we saw in that 74 Finals, unless Cowens gets help, he’ll get creamed by Kareem. And because of this, Santa Monica will have to have Hakeem guarding Kareem the whole game, where we already know Hakeem is inferior. On the other hand, Death Star will be capable of giving Kareem a rest by putting Laimbeer on Hakeem, who can play him physical.

Total everything up and we believe Kareem has the edge here. He was simply a better player in his peak and the statistics and accolades back this fact up. Outside of MJ, there is no one with a well-rounded resume like Kareem.

Offensive Philosophy
The offensive philosophy of Death Star will be much the same as it has been in the past. We’ll run P&Rs with Price + Kareem in addition to utilizing Price’s playmaking abilities by having players such as Sloan, Pierce and Laimbeer cut to the basket. We’ll get some isolations for Pierce in addition to lots and lots of post ups for Kareem. As mentioned in past write-ups, we believe Death Stars’ spacing is excellent with 2 great 3 point shooters in Price and Pierce and another good one in Laimbeer (career best 36% from 3 inarguably his best year). In addition, Death Star has some excellent shooters off the bench in Bowen and even Carmelo who can space the floor as a stretch 4. We’ll have Kareem go to work down low and have 4 shooters around him to space the floor (think Orlando Magic offense in 09 with Dwight except Kareem is a million times better). While Hakeem is an excellent defender, we do not see Hakeem stopping Kareem who has several inches on him and the unblockable sky hook. Death Star will also look to get stud scorer Carmelo Anthony lots of touches off the bench. Much like he came off the bench for the Olympic team, we feel Carmelo can light it up off the bench vs. Santa Monica. There is simply no one on the Santa Monica bench who can guard Carmelo. Christie is a good defender but he gives up a few inches and 30 pounds. On the other hand, Carmelo is simply too quick for Cowens while Amare doesn’t play any defense anyways. In fact, when Amare is in the game, we plan to constantly attack him with either Carmelo who is too quick for him or bully him on the block with Laimbeer (averaged 18ppg in his prime) who is simply too physical for Amare. Either way, Amare sucks on defense and will be attacked by very capable offensive players.

Finally, we’d also like to mention that Carmelo has gotten the best of Durant in head 2 head matchups over their careers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=duranke01) averaging 30.2 ppg-6.9rpg-3.8apg on a 58.8% TS% while Durant averaged 26.8ppg-6.5rpg-3.3apg on a 57.0% TS%. Melo’s teams also happen to be 11-1 in these games. This also includes recent matchups (prime Durant) where Durant has shot 45%, 35.7%, 42.9%, 33.3% and 41.2% while Carmelo was up over 50% in 3 of those matchups.

Defensive Philosophy
We’ll play a lot of man defense and mix in some zone when they have fewer 3 point shooters out on the court. We feel like our strengths and weaknesses tend to match up with each other. We aren’t too worried about Mookie Blaylock or Dough Christie beating us offensively, regardless of whoever starts at PG. So Mark Price’s defense shouldn’t be much of an issue. In regards to Jerry Sloan, having to go against a contemporary of his in Sam Jones is just perfect. We feel Sloan can shut down Jones. With Pierce on Kevin Durant, we feel Pierce’s underrated defense, physical play and toughness can cause problems for the lanky Durant. In addition, Death Star will throw Bruce Bowen at Kevin Durant, who we have full confidence can and will frustrate KD. Up front with Kareem, Laimbeer and the assholiness of Rick Mahorn, we are excellent up front defensively. We feel we can match up with Hakeem and Cowens with our bigs. Simply put, we do not believe that Santa Monica has any advantages offensively since their best players are matched up with our best defenders. Also, just like we had a stud scorer in Carmelo, Death Star has a STUD defender in Bruce Bowen off the bench. One of the greatest defenders of all-time, we believe Bowen will be capable of frustrating KD and slowing him down. He slowed down Lebron in the 2007 NBA Finals when Lebron was just a youngling, holding Bron to 22ppg on 35.6% shooting with an efficiency of 42.8% TS%. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bowenbr01&p2=jamesle01#stats_playoffs) Kevin Durant is just a few years older than Lebron was in 2007 and we believe with a great defender like Bowen on him in addition to the veteran savy Paul Pierce, Kevin could struggle to perform at the levels needed for Santa Monica to take down the nets.

Finally, I’m sure Santa Monica will mention that while Carmelo will score at will against Amare, that Amare would return the favor. While we won’t say Carmelo is a great defender, he is a better defender than Amare. Simple fact. In addition, Amare won’t have Steve Nash feeding him passes like he did in his prime. For those reasons, we feel Carmelo can outproduce Amare in this series.

Summary
Death Star just feels it is slightly better at a number of positions. We feel we have an advantage at Center (Kareem had a better peak, see above) and an advantage at SF due to Paul Pierce’s playoff experience and KD’s lack of accomplishments from an all-time sense. In addition, we feel the scoring of Carmelo and the defense of Bruce Bowen off the bench will be a big difference maker. The rest of the teams are fairly similar. While Brandon Roy was lethal in his prime, so was Gus Williams who actually led the 79 championship winning Sonics in scoring (something Roy can’t say). Finally, we’ll finish on this note: Death Star has 26 championships, 25 All-defensive teams and tons of scoring with 2 separate scoring champs in addition to Pierce who averaged 27 in his prime. Santa Monica simply cannot compete with the championship experience of Death Star in addition to the potent scoring it brings and its excellent defense. In the Finals, having that championship experience is important. Death Star believes Kevin Durant doesn’t quite have that in him yet while its stars- Kareem and Pierce- have already experienced what it takes to get the job done. For this reason, Death Star believes it will take home the Larry O’Brien trophy.


Congrats to the Death Star.

What we want you to know:
Depth Chart
C: Hakeem Olajuwon (40) || Dave Cowens (8) || Manute Bol
PF: Dave Cowens- (30) || Amare Stoudemire (18)
SF: Kevin Durant (40) || Brandon Roy (8) || Toni Kukoc
SG: Sam Jones (30) ||Brandon Roy (18) || Otis Birdsong
PG: Mookie Blaylock30) || Doug Christie (10) || Brandon Roy (8) || Nate McMillan

Doug Christie or Kevin Durant will bring the ball up when Mookie is not in the game

3 MVP Awards
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
29 All NBA team Awards
24 All NBA Defensive awards

Offensive philosophy:
We are going to employ the use of our talented passing bigs and run the Princeton offense. Here’s a little bit about the offense.
The Princeton offense is an offensive basketball strategy which emphasizes constant motion, passing, back-door cuts, picks on and off the ball, and disciplined teamwork. The offense is designed for a unit of 5 players who can each pass, shoot and dribble at an above average level. It attempts to isolate and exploit a mismatch using these skills.
This offense fits our personal like a glove. All 5 of our starters are extremely unselfish and are above average passers. We feel very comfortable with both Cowens or Hakeem in the high post and letting the offense run through either of them over the course of the game. This offensive set will also create favorable match-ups for Hakeem in the post and give him easy looks or give players off him wide open shots or easy cuts. This also does not make Durant an “off ball” player either. What this will do is give Durant an easier time getting 1on1 match-ups against Paul Pierce, who Durant has a significant size and athletic advantage over.
A considerable focus for us will be getting Hakeem the ball 15-18 feet away from the basket where he can face up. We want to take KAJ away from the hoop where he will be much more exposed in the open floor. This is absolute crucial as we think Hakeem’s quickness is the big advantage that he has over KAJ. Getting him away from the rim and having KAJ have to guard him in the open floor is away to maximize that advantage. The beauty of this is that the Princeton offensive set almost always starts with a pass to the high post. So Hakeem will have the offense run through him the entire game.

Defensive philosophy:
Santa Monica is worried about 2 players in this series: Kareem and Paul Pierce. Luckily, we are extremely well equipped to deal with them. We’re not going to pretend we can stop Kareem… No one can. But we do have several advantages we can use against him starting with the greatest defensive C of all time in Hakeem. And to add in former MVP Dave Cowens for help defense and Kareem is going to have his hands full. With Pierce, we want to attack him with a variety of different defenders all game long. Durant’s length and athleticism is well equipped the smaller Pierce some issues. Also, Nate McMillan, Kukoc, and Brandon Roy might see some time on Pierce throughout the game. Our defensive versatility is another big plus factor for why Santa Monica wins this series.

PG: Mookie Blaylock || Doug Christie || Brandon Roy VS Mark Price || Gus Williams

A Classic All Offense VS All defense match-up. However, we are very confident in 6x All Defensive member to slow down Price. And Price is far more important to the success of Death Star than Mookie is to us. Mookie has not been able to be effective this playoffs because he’s VS’ giant Point-Forward type PG’s. He finally gets a match-up where his defensive prowess can be put on display and lock up Price all series long. It’s not like Price can get a break either with Doug Christie coming off the bench in relief of Blaylock. On offense, Blaylock remains in his role as a spot-up 3pt shooter and occasional playmaker. He fits our team perfectly because he can stay out of the way of Durant and Hakeem playmaking.

SG: Sam Jones || Brandon Roy VS Jerry Sloan || Bruce Bowen
Two old guys going at it. How exciting! Here’s the difference. Sam Jones is used as our veteran presence on this roster and are consummate winner and professional. This match-up is not crucial to deciding this series, but we feel very comfortable with our advantage here.

SF: Kevin Durant || Brandon Roy VS Paul Pierce || Carmelo Anthony

Another great match-up to watch and one that would produce a lot of points. However, Durant has the athletic and the height/length advantage over Prince. This will play well into his hands on both ends of the floor. And while Pierce has had a long successful career, he’s never achieved the numbers Durant has in a much shorter amount of time. That is absolutely something that should be taken into consideration when evaluating this match-up. Can Pierce keep up with the length of Durant?
The Princeton will keep Durant in constant motion; running off screens, back-door cuts etc. However, we will not be afraid to get Durant in ISO situations early and often against Pierce and get him in foul trouble. With the motion of the Princeton, as well as the attention Hakeem commands, Durant will have many opportunities to go 1 on 1. That’s HUGE for our offense

PF: Dave Cowens || Amare Stoudemire VS Bill Laimbeer || Carmelo Anthony
Another incredibly close and similar match-up. Cowens and Laimbeer play the tough guy/enforcer/rebounder role for their respective teams. Cowens just does it a lot better. Cowens, as one of the leaders of 70’s Celtics teams took on the true team leader role and often outplayed his opponents through energy and hustle. Not to mention, being a lock-down defender and rebounder. This is another match-up that won’t decide the series, but one that is extremely important. Cowens ability to be our “glue guy” and do all the little things for our squad is something that makes this team a title contender. He provides energy/hutle/passing/rebounding and on-floor leadership that every team needs and values.

C: Hakeem Olajuwon || Dave Cowens VS Kareem Abdul-Jabbar || Bill Laimbeer
These are the reason ATRD’s are fun. We get to compare how 2 all-time great C’s in their prime, would match up with each other. There’s no doubt this is one of those titan match-ups. It’s almost impossible to predict who would come out ahead in this match-up, but as we described earlier, we feel Hakeem has a few physical advantages he can take advantage of: His defensive help ability and his quickness. We’re going to bring KAJ away from the basket as much as possible and get him away from his comfort level as a rim protector.
Defensively, we will provide help with Cowens all game long. This is an important distinction and another big factor in this series

Bench:
This is another deciding factor in this series. We feel Death Star’s bench is very lackluster outside of Melo and Bowen. They simply do not have the bigs depth necessary to deal with offensive players as aggressive as Hakeem, Amare, and Durant penetration. We on the other hand can go 9 deep with Amare, Roy, Christie, and Kukoc with defenders such as Bol and Nate McMillan to turn to if necessary. We anticipate both sides getting into some foul trouble, so bench production is very important. We have the advantage here

Conclusion:
Congrats to Death Star on making the finals. They’ve done a great job in this redraft and deserve to be commended. However, they simply do not have the tools to overcome Santa Monica. Here’s what we want you to remember.

-Mookie Blaylock locking up Mark Price

-Sam Jones and Dave Cowens advantages in their match-ups

-Can Pierce hang with the length/athleticism of Durant?

-Hakeem’s defense on KAJ and Cowens ability to play help defense on.

-Bench advantage for Santa Monica

Thank you for reading. Please Vote!

I Rock Shaqs
07-26-2013, 02:01 PM
Yall Gotta start putting the teams next to each other, I shouldn't have to scroll up and down the whole damn page trying to remember who the heck is on the other team while looking at the positions.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-26-2013, 02:08 PM
If Santa Monica's bench is superior, then why are they only playing 3 players off its bench, while Death Star is playing 4? Also, Santa Monica vastly underrates Gus Williams.

In their peak 3 seasons, which is what we are using for this game:

PER Total WS WS/season
Gus 21.2 30.1 10.0
Roy 21.6 30.6 10.2


Virtually the same. And then factor in the fact that Gus Williams led the 79 championship winning Sonics team in scoring and was actually it's best player, not DJ. Should've won Finals MVP too. Anyways, Roy and Gus are basically the same. And Santa Monica acknowledge Carmelo and Bowen. So how is their bench better? They aren't even using Kukoc or Nate McMillan. And Rick Mahorn was a key contributor to the 89 Pistons championship team while making an All-Defensive team the next year. One of those Bad Boy Pistons who no one wanted to cross. We're actually giving him some minutes.

Chronz
07-26-2013, 02:32 PM
If Santa Monica's bench is superior, then why are they only playing 3 players off its bench, while Death Star is playing 4?

good point, of course it didnt help me win my series...

The_Jamal
07-26-2013, 02:42 PM
If Santa Monica's bench is superior, then why are they only playing 3 players off its bench, while Death Star is playing 4? Also, Santa Monica vastly underrates Gus Williams.

In their peak 3 seasons, which is what we are using for this game:

PER Total WS WS/season
Gus 21.2 30.1 10.0
Roy 21.6 30.6 10.2


Virtually the same. And then factor in the fact that Gus Williams led the 79 championship winning Sonics team in scoring and was actually it's best player, not DJ. Should've won Finals MVP too. Anyways, Roy and Gus are basically the same. And Santa Monica acknowledge Carmelo and Bowen. So how is their bench better? They aren't even using Kukoc or Nate McMillan. And Rick Mahorn was a key contributor to the 89 Pistons championship team while making an All-Defensive team the next year. One of those Bad Boy Pistons who no one wanted to cross. We're actually giving him some minutes.

Give me a break. You're playing Mahorn 4 freaking minutes. I'll respond later

Sadds The Gr8
07-26-2013, 02:55 PM
I liked SM the whole game but DS matches up well. this is tough

The_Jamal
07-26-2013, 04:13 PM
-Pierce has an advantage because he's played longer? At no time in his career as he been as dominant as Durant. And with Pierce getting 33 minutes trying to defend Durant, Pierce is going to be tired out to try and carry that DS offense. Which he absolutely has to do

-These are just projected minutes. Even so, my projected bench is playing a much larger role and is more talented at any rate. Death Star simply cannot match my depth or talent off the bench.

- What the hell do 2 H-H match-ups prove? Stupidly low sample size aside, there's no reason to use H-H match-ups in an All-time setting. It makes absolutely no sense. I'll leave it at that.

-Durant is one of the most gifted scorers in NBA history. He's shown up in the playoffs and dominated. I see no reason why Pierce should get credit over him because he's played longer. And let's not forget, Pierce only achieved anything in the playoffs after getting joined by KG and Allen.

-I find it insane he's trying to claim KAJ superior to Hakeem. These 2 are about as equal as it gets. "While Hakeem is an excellent defender?" Are u kidding me? Hakeem has a case as the greatest defender of all time at any position. That is a gross underestimation of Hakeem's prowess on the defensive end. Also, how is KAJ going to defend Hakeem as we have him setting up at the high post? Can he keep up with his quickness on the offensive end? we doubt it

-Also, Death Star has not addressed Cowens help defense on KAJ. Will KAJ really be as effective with 2 all-time great defenders smothering him all series? We will gladly let Laimbeer beat us

tredigs
07-26-2013, 06:03 PM
-Pierce has an advantage because he's played longer? At no time in his career as he been as dominant as Durant. And with Pierce getting 33 minutes trying to defend Durant, Pierce is going to be tired out to try and carry that DS offense. Which he absolutely has to do


If by “played longer” you mean to say that Pierce has totaled nearly 2 seasons worth of playoff games, gone through his peak and learned through trial and error how to be the leader of a champion, then yes, because he's played longer. KD's already a more potent scorer, but he still has some to learn on the leadership front and in rounding out his defense (something Pierce and others didn't fully maximize until their late 20's). And who can blame him? It's not as if we can expect a finished product from the 24 yr old KD. If PP can go toe to toe with Lebron and Kobe in legendary playoff series, there's no reason to expect Durant to tire him out in 33 minutes. Also, a team with Price, Melo, Laimbeer, Pierce and Kareem along with the greatest 3&D player of all time (Bowen) and another potent bench scoring option in Gus Williams (an All NBA 1st Teamer from the 80's who put up 26+ ppg in multiple playoff runs) does not need to be “carried” on offense. That's grasping big time.



-These are just projected minutes. Even so, my projected bench is playing a much larger role and is more talented at any rate. Death Star simply cannot match my depth or talent off the bench.


Death Star has arguably the best scoring 6th man in Team USA history coming off the bench in Melo (to illustrate how potent and efficient he can be when surrounded by a cast of this caliber, tho' obviously this matchup is better competition), arguably the best 3 and D player ever in Bowen (8 consecutive All Defensive Teams and a career 42.2% 3pt shooter in 135 post season games), and another All NBA 1st Teamer + potent/efficient scorer and facilitator with big time playoff experience in Gus Williams who could do work on young Brandon Roy anytime they're in iso.

Your bench in nice, but has significant flaws in that your key cog is a BIG who can't play D, something that will haunt you in a game of this caliber (Amare), another is a solid offensive player with limited defense who got injured before his peak and before he accrued any meaningful playoff minutes (B. Roy), and then you have a crafty 2 way player (tho' middling offensively) who would simply get overpowered by Pierce and Melo (Christie). Can't help but notice that none of your playing bench ever reached a finals, either. That's telling and IMO a huge detriment in an All Time series.



- What the hell do 2 H-H match-ups prove? Stupidly low sample size aside, there's no reason to use H-H match-ups in an All-time setting. It makes absolutely no sense. I'll leave it at that.

-Durant is one of the most gifted scorers in NBA history. He's shown up in the playoffs and dominated. I see no reason why Pierce should get credit over him because he's played longer. And let's not forget, Pierce only achieved anything in the playoffs after getting joined by KG and Allen.


That's like saying Durant never achieved anything in the playoffs before getting Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka. And at 25 Pierce was able to take carry his highly weak cast (Antoine Walker and Tony Delk as the #2 and #3...) to upset the 3 seeded Pacers while putting up 27/9/7 with ~2stl and 1blk through those 2 series. Pierce can beast if he's left to his own, but his greater strength comes in his leadership and championship experience.




-I find it insane he's trying to claim KAJ superior to Hakeem. These 2 are about as equal as it gets. "While Hakeem is an excellent defender?" Are u kidding me? Hakeem has a case as the greatest defender of all time at any position. That is a gross underestimation of Hakeem's prowess on the defensive end. Also, how is KAJ going to defend Hakeem as we have him setting up at the high post? Can he keep up with his quickness on the offensive end? we doubt it

-Also, Death Star has not addressed Cowens help defense on KAJ. Will KAJ really be as effective with 2 all-time great defenders smothering him all series? We will gladly let Laimbeer beat us

Kareem was ultra long and fast in his youth, and the most dominant defender in the league for about a decade; leading the league in blocks + D. Win Shares multiple times while recognized on the All Defensive Team from '69 through to the mid 80's. Hakeem setting up at the high post would be fit right into a young KAJ's wheelhouse. And whle KAJ dominated his league to a level Hakeem obviously never approached, it's fine to make an era argument there. But let's remember that an old man Kareem (37 yrs old) was still leading Showtime Lakers in scoring + rebounding and taking home hardware as Finals MVP in arguably the toughest basketball era. If he was still young? You'd have seen the 30/15/5 games with 4+ blocks a night throughout those playoffs like he always did. Which brings us to Cowens help D. 6'9” Cowens is your main presence to help stop the 7'3” sky hook shooting Kareem? GL, but assuming it could work a bit, to underestimate the passing ability of Kareem and how easy of looks he could get the very offensively sound Bill Laimbeer would probably render the double useless pretty quickly. Kareem could pass right over Cowens with ease, which to a cutting Laimbeer (or an open 3pt shooting one) would get ugly.

Chronz
07-26-2013, 07:41 PM
I think Pierce's playoff rep is overblown tbh

As much as I dislike H2H, when its against 2 interior players, I feel like their play more often influences the play of the counterpart, tho context still trumps all.

Thats why Kareem vs Hakeem should be revisited. How closely does the matchup of an old Kareem dropping 30+ on young Ralph+Hakeem approximate their peak performances? I think its obvious that a younger Kareem would have an easier time against these cat quick centers but I also think an older Hakeem would have fared better on both ends as well. The question is which do you think would have improved the most and which do you think won the matchups between them to begin with...

Chronz
07-26-2013, 07:52 PM
Which brings us to Cowens help D. 6'9” Cowens is your main presence to help stop the 7'3” sky hook shooting Kareem? GL, but assuming it could work a bit, to underestimate the passing ability of Kareem and how easy of looks he could get the very offensively sound Bill Laimbeer would probably render the double useless pretty quickly. Kareem could pass right over Cowens with ease, which to a cutting Laimbeer (or an open 3pt shooting one) would get ugly.

This is where I contradict myself, you know the whole H2H matters when its between bigmen, well you also have to make a playoff adjustment sometimes (or not). Cowens vs Kareem was usually a one sided affair (similar to Wilt vs Russ) but come playoff time, the refs let alot more contact go it and the domination was stunted. No idea what the numbers for their series were but I do remember a big deal being made about the Celtics changing up their 1 on 1 philosophy upon beating them. That the decision to swarm Kareem was what led to the Celtics victory should tell us how utterly incapable he was in defending him I suppose.

And in a game like this, throwing the kitchen sink at Kareem is what you dont want to do.

tredigs
07-26-2013, 08:12 PM
This is where I contradict myself, you know the whole H2H matters when its between bigmen, well you also have to make a playoff adjustment sometimes (or not). Cowens vs Kareem was usually a one sided affair (similar to Wilt vs Russ) but come playoff time, the refs let alot more contact go it and the domination was stunted. No idea what the numbers for their series were but I do remember a big deal being made about the Celtics changing up their 1 on 1 philosophy upon beating them. That the decision to swarm Kareem was what led to the Celtics victory should tell us how utterly incapable he was in defending him I suppose.

And in a game like this, throwing the kitchen sink at Kareem is what you dont want to do.
Yeah, I mean they did eventually beat the Bucks in 7 in those finals, but Kareem still averaged 33 and 13 against Cowens and co., he just couldn't get any help from old man Oscar and his 12 ppg when it came. Cowens was good but they still couldn't contain Kareem, Hondo and the casts ended up being the difference.

tredigs
07-26-2013, 11:35 PM
Yall Gotta start putting the teams next to each other, I shouldn't have to scroll up and down the whole damn page trying to remember who the heck is on the other team while looking at the positions. Here, for your viewing pleasure:

Death Star (1). With HCA:

C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (40 mins) | Bill Laimbeer (8)
PF: Bill Laimbeer (28) | Carmelo Anthony (16) | Rick Mahorn (4) | Tommy Heinsohn (0)
SF: Paul Pierce (33) | Carmelo Anthony (8)| Bruce Bowen (7)
SG: Jerry Sloan (30) | Bruce Bowen (13) | Paul Pierce (5) | Steve Smith (0)
PG: Mark Price (38)| Gus Williams (10) | BJ Armstrong (0)

Santa Monica (3).

C: Hakeem Olajuwon (40) || Dave Cowens (8) || Manute Bol
PF: Dave Cowens- (30) || Amare Stoudemire (18)
SF: Kevin Durant (40) || Brandon Roy (8) || Toni Kukoc
SG: Sam Jones (30) ||Brandon Roy (18) || Otis Birdsong
PG: Mookie Blaylock (30) || Doug Christie (10) || Brandon Roy (8) || Nate McMillan

tredigs
07-27-2013, 04:26 PM
MVP's
Led in PER
Led in WS
All D Teams
Rings
Lord Of Rings
Led Playoffs WS/48
Led Playoffs PER
Led Playoffs TS%


Kareem
6
9
9
11
6
2
5
7
2


Hakeem
1
0
0
9
2
2
1
2
0

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 04:37 PM
MVP's
Led in PER
Led in WS
All D Teams
Rings
Lord Of Rings
Led Playoffs WS/48
Led Playoffs PER
Led Playoffs TS%


Kareem
6
9
9
11
6
2
5
7
2


Hakeem
1
0
0
9
2
2
1
2
0



Cool.

Lets just ignore the bast difference in C talent level between the 2 eras. But that's fine

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 04:44 PM
Cool.

Lets just ignore the bast difference in C talent level between the 2 eras. But that's fine

Not like Nate Thurmond, Artils Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, older Wilt, etc. were chopped liver...Unless you want to say Dave Cowens was chopped liver, which I'm totally fine with.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 04:49 PM
Cool.

Lets just ignore the bast difference in C talent level between the 2 eras. But that's fine





Kareem was ultra long and fast in his youth, and the most dominant defender in the league for about a decade; leading the league in blocks + D. Win Shares multiple times while recognized on the All Defensive Team from '69 through to the mid 80's. Hakeem setting up at the high post would be fit right into a young KAJ's wheelhouse. And whle KAJ dominated his league to a level Hakeem obviously never approached, it's fine to make an era argument there. But let's remember that an old man Kareem (37 yrs old) was still leading Showtime Lakers in scoring + rebounding and taking home hardware as Finals MVP in arguably the toughest basketball era. If he was still young? You'd have seen the 30/15/5 games with 4+ blocks a night throughout those playoffs like he always did. Which brings us to Cowens help D. 6'9” Cowens is your main presence to help stop the 7'3” sky hook shooting Kareem? GL, but assuming it could work a bit, to underestimate the passing ability of Kareem and how easy of looks he could get the very offensively sound Bill Laimbeer would probably render the double useless pretty quickly. Kareem could pass right over Cowens with ease, which to a cutting Laimbeer (or an open 3pt shooting one) would get ugly.
Already addressed it. But to be more specific, as a 35 yr old in the 80's Kareem put up 27/8/3 (on 57/76%) +1.1stl and 3.7blks in the playoffs. That was good enough to still lead all players in PPG + blocks. Two years later in the playoffs as a 37 yr old he put up 22/8/4 (on 56/78%) + 1.2stl 1.9blk, and then won Finals MVP. He was All NBA 1st Team while averaging 23/6/4 on elite %'s until the age of 38. Something tells me he still would've CRUSHED that era if he was a young Buck.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 04:51 PM
Not like Nate Thurmond, Artils Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, older Wilt, etc. were chopped liver...Unless you want to say Dave Cowens was chopped liver, which I'm totally fine with.

KAJ got owned by Moses.

And those are nothing compared to Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Old Moses, old KAJ, Mourning. Not to mention Hakeem had to contend with a much better era of basketball who took awards away from him.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 05:08 PM
KAJ got owned by Moses.

And those are nothing compared to Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Old Moses, old KAJ, Mourning. Not to mention Hakeem had to contend with a much better era of basketball who took awards away from him.

"Owned him". That's such a classic basketball misnomer. Kareem's team won the vast majority of the games while they put up similar ppg on similar %'s. The RPG for their h2h's aren't even counted until Kareem was well into their 30's and Malone was in his prime (putting up 26 and 15 while leading the league in rpg every year), but younger Kareem handled him just fine (and he never did get to see Kareem's most dominant years).

The whole idea that his competition was weaker, but yet he was still killing it in the 80's and winning Finals MVP's, being placed on all D teams and All NBA 1st Teams as late as 38 yrs old in the late 80's when Bird, Jordan, Barkley, DREAM, Samspson, McHale + Parish, the Bad Boy Pistons etc were all in the league is just a laughable argument. If Wilt Chamberlain says he was the only player he ever needed help to guard, and he still did work in the 80's and made 1st teams when most were retired (and young Dream was taking 2nd team to the 38 yr old), I have to assume he'd dominate them if in his prime.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Also as tredigs said, young Buck Kareem was fairly quick in his youth on defense and is certainly capable of guarding Hareem in the high post. Also with his height and length (he's actually taller than reported), he's certainly capable of recovering fast if Hakeem attempts to drive by him. Let's not make Kareem to be this slow lumbering center cause he's not. In addition, while Kareem is best near the basket, Death Star has Laimbeer as a bruiser to protect the paint should Kareem get pulled away from the basket. He did it for those 2 Bad Boy Pistons teams so Santa Monica isn't exploiting that.

In addition, while KD has gotten better defensively, we do feel like Carmelo and Pierce can post him up and attack him that way. And Carmelo has had a ton of success doing that against KD in their matchups, even recently. And while KD is longer and more athletic, Pierce has always been a very good defender. Even from 2010-2012, when he was out of his prime, he ranked in the top 25% of defenders via synergy ppp. Not to mention KD will see a ton of Bruce Bowen on him, and there's no doubt Bowen won't let KD go off.

Also, we feel Santa Monica ignored the questionable fit on offense of a volume scorer like Cowens in their lineup. Look at Cowens' efficiency over his career. He had a number of seasons where his TS% was less than 50%. For Death Star, Laimbeer was much more efficient and fits in better with the DS team as he can be more of a complimentary player.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 05:30 PM
Also as tredigs said, young Buck Kareem was fairly quick in his youth on defense and is certainly capable of guarding Hareem in the high post. Also with his height and length (he's actually taller than reported), he's certainly capable of recovering fast if Hakeem attempts to drive by him. Let's not make Kareem to be this slow lumbering center cause he's not. In addition, while Kareem is best near the basket, Death Star has Laimbeer as a bruiser to protect the paint should Kareem get pulled away from the basket. He did it for those 2 Bad Boy Pistons teams so Santa Monica isn't exploiting that.

In addition, while KD has gotten better defensively, we do feel like Carmelo and Pierce can post him up and attack him that way. And Carmelo has had a ton of success doing that against KD in their matchups, even recently. And while KD is longer and more athletic, Pierce has always been a very good defender. Even from 2010-2012, when he was out of his prime, he ranked in the top 25% of defenders via synergy ppp. Not to mention KD will see a ton of Bruce Bowen on him, and there's no doubt Bowen won't let KD go off.

Also, we feel Santa Monica ignored the questionable fit on offense of a volume scorer like Cowens in their lineup. Look at Cowens' efficiency over his career. He had a number of seasons where his TS% was less than 50%. For Death Star, Laimbeer was much more efficient and fits in better with the DS team as he can be more of a complimentary player.

Are u kidding me? Cowens is one of the greatest teammates/energy/hustle/rebounder type players in NBA history. His balls-to the wall playing was infectious and a big reason why he was a leader for his Celtics rosters. Players around the league actually respect Cowens. Laimbeer was well.. not. For the roles they are in, these guys Cowens does it far better.


And while we're talking about "questionable fit". Lets talk about Mark Price. How's he going to work with Pierce/Melo/KAJ? Price was effective because he was in total control of the ball all the time.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 05:41 PM
Are u kidding me? Cowens is one of the greatest teammates/energy/hustle/rebounder type players in NBA history. His balls-to the wall playing was infectious and a big reason why he was a leader for his Celtics rosters. Players around the league actually respect Cowens. Laimbeer was well.. not. For the roles they are in, these guys Cowens does it far better.

I was talking about Cowens offensive fit, not his defensive fit. Look it up, he had a number of lower efficiency seasons. He was more of a volume scorer. The rest of the stuff you said there can still be true. Never disputed his intangibles.



And while we're talking about "questionable fit". Lets talk about Mark Price. How's he going to work with Pierce/Melo/KAJ? Price was effective because he was in total control of the ball all the time.

We addressed this in our write-up. We'll get Price involved in the P&R with basically everyone plus he's a great shooter too. Don't see how he doesn't fit offensively. This isn't the same at all with Cowens since there's no questioning Price's ability to shoot or his efficiency. All I questioned with Cowens was his lower efficiency and how that'd work with 2 higher USG players like Durant and Hakeem.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 05:44 PM
Are u kidding me? Cowens is one of the greatest teammates/energy/hustle/rebounder type players in NBA history. His balls-to the wall playing was infectious and a big reason why he was a leader for his Celtics rosters. Players around the league actually respect Cowens. Laimbeer was well.. not. For the roles they are in, these guys Cowens does it far better.


And while we're talking about "questionable fit". Lets talk about Mark Price. How's he going to work with Pierce/Melo/KAJ? Price was effective because he was in total control of the ball all the time.

How could anyone think Mark Price would be a questionable fit for a team? Haha. We're talking about a guy who was among the top 10 in Assists + AST% many times while never in his life cracking the top 10 in Usage% and averaged 11 FGA for his career. And when you are a deadly 3pt shooter of his caliber, it's an automatic floor spacer for your teammates and players like Pierce + Melo love nothing more than a little extra space to work with.

He was an ULTRA efficient pass-first PG who literally coined the "split" in the pick 'n roll and never got to play with elite teammates. This isn't AI. Fuzzy memory.

KnicksorBust
07-27-2013, 06:07 PM
I find the fact that STAT and Melo will be guarding each other at some point in this series hilarious.

As usual I've probably spent more time debating these two teams in my head than anyone except Jamal-PSK.

I think Death Star has the superior backcourt (Mark Price is historically underrated) and Santa Monica has the edge with the forwards. Hakeem vs. Kareem is a virtual wash. That being said I have issues with how Santa Monicia will be using Hakeem in their writeup. Why are they taking one of the greatest low post players of all-time and sticking him in the high post running the Princeton offense? He's not a Bill Walton type. Are they that worried about KAJ's defense on the block? On the other hand, both have strong team chemistry. Kareem gets plenty of room to operate on the block surrounded by plenty of talented shooters. However, I'm not entirely sold on this Pierce > Durant argument and I think Dave Cowens is getting very underrated here. Laimbeer has never been on his level. My gut says look at the bench. Melo vs. Amar'e in their prime would be an offensive slugfest. Could go either way. I prefer Brandon Roy's overall skillset over Bruce Bowen but then conversely Gus Williams was a far superior PG than Doug Christie who is naturally more of a 2. They seem to wipe each other out with each successive argument.

I'll give each GM a chance to respond to my post and before making my final decision.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 06:09 PM
How could anyone think Mark Price would be a questionable fit for a team? Haha. We're talking about a guy who was among the top 10 in Assists + AST% many times while never in his life cracking the top 10 in Usage% and averaged 11 FGA for his career. And when you are a deadly 3pt shooter of his caliber, it's an automatic floor spacer for your teammates and players like Pierce + Melo love nothing more than a little extra space to work with.

He was an ULTRA efficient pass-first PG who literally coined the "split" in the pick 'n roll and never got to play with elite teammates. This isn't AI. Fuzzy memory.

What does USG% have to do with a pass-first PG like Price? Does Rondo not dominate the ball because his USG% has hovered around 20 is whole career? He's made everything happen for that Celtics team for a long time now.

How about John Stockton? His USG% was under 20% for his career. Are we going to say he didn't dominate the ball during his career as well? Because of USG%?

Price wasn't the same passer those guys were, but he followed the same mold and actually had a higher USG% than both of them. I never called him AI. But he is a guy who needs the rock to be effective. And I greatly question how effective Price can be if he can run the team like he's used to doing. Mookie, provides excellent value defensively and on the boards.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 07:51 PM
What does USG% have to do with a pass-first PG like Price? Does Rondo not dominate the ball because his USG% has hovered around 20 is whole career? He's made everything happen for that Celtics team for a long time now.

How about John Stockton? His USG% was under 20% for his career. Are we going to say he didn't dominate the ball during his career as well? Because of USG%?

Price wasn't the same passer those guys were, but he followed the same mold and actually had a higher USG% than both of them. I never called him AI. But he is a guy who needs the rock to be effective. And I greatly question how effective Price can be if he can run the team like he's used to doing. Mookie, provides excellent value defensively and on the boards.

Rondo? Plenty of that offense ran through Pierce and KG, as both of them were #1's and great playmakers for the majority of their career. Stockton played with one of the highest Usage/scoring bigs in NBA history, obviously his was lower as a result. Price had nobody like that, but still found a way to rack up assists and score in the high teens on extreme efficiency while only turning it over on average 2.5 per-36. Rondo off the ball can't hurt you because he can't shoot. Do you not feel there's a difference between one of the worst shooting guards of the modern era and one of the best? Hint: One demands attention at all times. IE, he does not need the ball in his hands to affect an opposing defense. Wasn't a fluke that Dream Team II asked him to play point and they went on to Gold.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 09:23 PM
Rondo? Plenty of that offense ran through Pierce and KG, as both of them were #1's and great playmakers for the majority of their career. Stockton played with one of the highest Usage/scoring bigs in NBA history, obviously his was lower as a result. Price had nobody like that, but still found a way to rack up assists and score in the high teens on extreme efficiency while only turning it over on average 2.5 per-36. Rondo off the ball can't hurt you because he can't shoot. Do you not feel there's a difference between one of the worst shooting guards of the modern era and one of the best? Hint: One demands attention at all times. IE, he does not need the ball in his hands to affect an opposing defense. Wasn't a fluke that Dream Team II asked him to play point and they went on to Gold.

So Price is a spot-up shooter? Got it. Also, why do I care about Olympic play?

You take the ball out of his hands, and all your left with his a spot-up shooter (albeit, an elite one). He doesn't help you on the boards, he doesn't rebound, and he was never an "Off-ball scorer" Ala Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, and he's a complete albatross defensively. Price has 2 elite skill sets going for him and you guys are eliminating one of them.

And don't come back with "Pierce can play offball!" when his USG has been in the upper 20's/lower 30's his whole career and you just said yourself that plenty of offense goes through Pierce and not just Rondo.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 09:46 PM
So Price is a spot-up shooter? Got it. Also, why do I care about Olympic play?

You take the ball out of his hands, and all your left with his a spot-up shooter (albeit, an elite one). He doesn't help you on the boards, he doesn't rebound, and he was never an "Off-ball scorer" Ala Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, and he's a complete albatross defensively. Price has 2 elite skill sets going for him and you guys are eliminating one of them.

And don't come back with "Pierce can play offball!" when his USG has been in the upper 20's/lower 30's his whole career and you just said yourself that plenty of offense goes through Pierce and not just Rondo.

What do you care about Olympic play? Because this is a theoretical game and when looking for parallels, it allows you to see a situation where he excelled as the teams point on a roster with this level of potency. And who cares if he's weak defensively? Your PG is Mookie ****ing Blaylock, we couldn't have asked for a better situation there. As for the boards, I don't think prime KAJ + Laimbeer would need too much help from a point.

He's far from the only playmaker, but the ball would be in Price's hands plenty in a series like this, and if it was like the other time the two met in the playoffs, he would turn Mookie inside out every game.

That's definitely not a matchup I'd worry about, Death Star crushes it.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 09:52 PM
I was talking about Cowens offensive fit, not his defensive fit. Look it up, he had a number of lower efficiency seasons. He was more of a volume scorer. The rest of the stuff you said there can still be true. Never disputed his intangibles.



We addressed this in our write-up. We'll get Price involved in the P&R with basically everyone plus he's a great shooter too. Don't see how he doesn't fit offensively. This isn't the same at all with Cowens since there's no questioning Price's ability to shoot or his efficiency. All I questioned with Cowens was his lower efficiency and how that'd work with 2 higher USG players like Durant and Hakeem.

Why do I care about Cowens efficiency? For starters, different era where shooting % are lower than today. Next, he shot 78% from the FT line. NEXT he's behind Durant, Hakeem, and Roy on the offensive hierarchy. Next, Cowens is a consumate teammate and professional and would have no problem deferring to the big guns. So I see no issue there.

While we're at it, let's talk about the Cowens-Laimbeer match-up. Which is severely getting overlooked in a lot of cases.

Dave Cowens:
1972 MVP
3x All NBA 2nd team
2x All NBA Defensive 2nd team
1x All NBA Defensve 1st team
8x All-Star
2x NBA Champion
1x NBA ROY
95 career DRTG (3rd All-time)


Bill Laimbeer:
4x All-Star
2x NBA Champion
Career DRTG 104 (Not ranked)

And let's talk about Laimbeer's incredibly overrated floor spacing that they claim he has as a "better fit". The first 9 years of his career, Laimbeer took 129 total 3 over the first 8 years of his career. This comes out to shooting 16 3s a year for an average of 25%. Interestingly enough, this was during Laimbeer's prime years as well. So what version of Laimbeer are we getting here? They can't have the prime version of him (which they claim to be using) and also the version who shot a bunch of 3s at the end of hi s career / So can Laimbeer really be described as a floor spacer shooting 16 3s a year at a 25% clip?

Even so, lets look at later in his career. The last 5 real years of his career, he was taking 96 3s a season. Again, hardly a sample size to qualify him as someone who can space the floor for KAJ. He hit these at a 34% clip. Decently respectable, but is this supposed to scare me from doubling KAJ? I'll gladly let Laimbeer try and beat me from deep.

So in sumation.

-Laimbeer has no business being a floor spacer for KAJ

-Cowens is the superior rebounder on both ends of the court and is a far superior passer.

-Cowens absolutely destroys Laimbeer defensively in both man and team defense

-Cowens provides far more intangibles to a team with hustle/energy style of play and the type of teammate he was.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 10:22 PM
Why do I care about Cowens efficiency? For starters, different era where shooting % are lower than today. Next, he shot 78% from the FT line. NEXT he's behind Durant, Hakeem, and Roy on the offensive hierarchy. Next, Cowens is a consumate teammate and professional and would have no problem deferring to the big guns. So I see no issue there.

While we're at it, let's talk about the Cowens-Laimbeer match-up. Which is severely getting overlooked in a lot of cases.

Dave Cowens:
1972 MVP
3x All NBA 2nd team
2x All NBA Defensive 2nd team
1x All NBA Defensve 1st team
8x All-Star
2x NBA Champion
1x NBA ROY
95 career DRTG (3rd All-time)


Bill Laimbeer:
4x All-Star
2x NBA Champion
Career DRTG 104 (Not ranked)

And let's talk about Laimbeer's incredibly overrated floor spacing that they claim he has as a "better fit". The first 9 years of his career, Laimbeer took 129 total 3 over the first 8 years of his career. This comes out to shooting 16 3s a year for an average of 25%. Interestingly enough, this was during Laimbeer's prime years as well. So what version of Laimbeer are we getting here? They can't have the prime version of him (which they claim to be using) and also the version who shot a bunch of 3s at the end of hi s career / So can Laimbeer really be described as a floor spacer shooting 16 3s a year at a 25% clip?

Even so, lets look at later in his career. The last 5 real years of his career, he was taking 96 3s a season. Again, hardly a sample size to qualify him as someone who can space the floor for KAJ. He hit these at a 34% clip. Decently respectable, but is this supposed to scare me from doubling KAJ? I'll gladly let Laimbeer try and beat me from deep.

So in sumation.

-Laimbeer has no business being a floor spacer for KAJ

-Cowens is the superior rebounder on both ends of the court and is a far superior passer.

-Cowens absolutely destroys Laimbeer defensively in both man and team defense

-Cowens provides far more intangibles to a team with hustle/energy style of play and the type of teammate he was.


#1 - him starting off with a "different era with lower%'s" as an excuse off the bat is a cop out. Their careers overlapped and right out of the gate as a rookie Laimbeer posted a higher TS% than Cowens' career high. A TS% that only grew as he developed and was given a bigger role.

#2 - At age 32 Laimbeer was still a highly efficient double double player (only losing a couple boards from his league leading rebound #'s due to Rodman's presence) with a line of 48/36/85 (119 Orating + 100 Drating), and defensively through the playoffs he led the league in both defensive rating and defensive win shares. He did this en route to their 2nd straight championship in 1990 (marking the last team to take out MJ + Pippen's Bulls in the ECF's). So, we'll take that version - which was also his career high WinShare/48 @ .182 - higher than Cowens career high.

Knowing these two, they'd probably be fighting at mid-court by halftime. And don't underestimate just how much fire and overall presence Laimbeer gave to his championship teams. These two would fight it out all game, unless of course you just leave Laimbeer wide open and double Kareem as he easily passes over the 6+" shorter Cowens to a cutting Bill. That works for us too.

KnicksorBust
07-27-2013, 10:34 PM
Are both of you closing games with your starting lineups?

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 10:45 PM
#1 - him starting off with a "different era with lower%'s" as an excuse off the bat is a cop out. Their careers overlapped and right out of the gate as a rookie Laimbeer posted a higher TS% than Cowens' career high. A TS% that only grew as he developed and was given a bigger role.

#2 - At age 32 Laimbeer was still a highly efficient double double player (only losing a couple boards from his league leading rebound #'s due to Rodman's presence) with a line of 48/36/85 (119 Orating + 100 Drating), and defensively through the playoffs he led the league in both defensive rating and defensive win shares. He did this en route to their 2nd straight championship in 1990 (marking the last team to take out MJ + Pippen's Bulls in the ECF's). So, we'll take that version - which was also his career high WinShare/48 @ .182 - higher than Cowens career high.

Knowing these two, they'd probably be fighting at mid-court by halftime. And don't underestimate just how much fire and overall presence Laimbeer gave to his championship teams. These two would fight it out all game, unless of course you just leave Laimbeer wide open and double Kareem as he easily passes over the 6+" shorter Cowens to a cutting Bill. That works for us too.

Well done. You basically ignored everything I just said :laugh2:

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 10:46 PM
Are both of you closing games with your starting lineups?

Mookie-Roy-Durant-Cowens-Hakeem

That's my closing roster

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 10:49 PM
Cowens is the superior rebounder on both ends of the court


So first, off, I want to expose the lie that Jamal told about Cowens being a better rebounder, cause thats just not true ;). But the proof is in the pudding. Since we're looking at peak, here's a nice table with the top 5 seasons rebounding wise for Laimbeer and Cowens:

Bill L Dave C Bill L Dave C Bill L Dave C
TRB% TRB% ORB% ORB% DRB% DRB%
19.7% 19.8% 13.6% 10.6% 28.9% 29.0%
18.7% 18.1% 11.8% 8.7% 27.0% 28.3%
18.6% 18.1% 11.4% 8.3% 26.3% 27.9%
18.3% 18.1% 10.9% 26.1% 27.3%
18.0% 17.5% 10.2% 26.1% 25.6%

Bolded led the league in DRB%


But since these are just random years and not 3 consecutive years peak, I looked at the 3 consecutive year peak as well and the results:

TRB% ORB% DRB%
Dave C 18.8% 9.2% 28.2%
Bill L 18.9% 11.5% 27.4%


So Laimbeer is actually the better overall rebounder (slightly) while Cowens was better as a defensive rebounder and Laimbeer better on the offensive glass. So all Santa Monica did in regards to bringing up the rebounding is make light of the fact that Laimbeer is actually better on the offensive boards and is more likely to clean up some misses.

So there's another advantage for Death Star. Laimbeer is better on the offensive glass than Cowens.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Well done. You basically ignored everything I just said :laugh2:
Nice cop out emoji laugh for not having a response. I addressed your message and frankly **** on it, letting you know what version we'd be using and how dominant he was at both spacing the floor and leading a defense en route to a back 2 back title against some of the toughest competition the playoffs have seen to this day.

You're better than that.


Are both of you closing games with your starting lineups?


No, normally we mention that but the team would close with:

PG: Price
SG: Pierce
SF: Melo [historically outplays KD h2h, even recently as mentioned in the OP, which we like to close here]
PF: Laimbeer
C : Kareem

Size + Playmaking + Defense + Rebounding + Offensive Beasts. Multiple guys who have both proven to be able to defer to others in championship situations or finish in iso. We love this lineup to close.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 10:54 PM
Are both of you closing games with your starting lineups?

As tredigs said, we'll close with Price-Pierce-Melo-Laimbeer-KAJ. And since we'll be seeing Melo vs. Durant, I think it's worth pointing out the h2h matchups:


Finally, we’d also like to mention that Carmelo has gotten the best of Durant in head 2 head matchups over their careers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=duranke01) averaging 30.2 ppg-6.9rpg-3.8apg on a 58.8% TS% while Durant averaged 26.8ppg-6.5rpg-3.3apg on a 57.0% TS%. Melo’s teams also happen to be 11-1 in these games. This also includes recent matchups (prime Durant) where Durant has shot 45%, 35.7%, 42.9%, 33.3% and 41.2% while Carmelo was up over 50% in 3 of those matchups.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 10:57 PM
So first, off, I want to expose the lie that Jamal told about Cowens being a better rebounder, cause thats just not true ;). But the proof is in the pudding. Since we're looking at peak, here's a nice table with the top 5 seasons rebounding wise for Laimbeer and Cowens:

Bill L Dave C Bill L Dave C Bill L Dave C
TRB% TRB% ORB% ORB% DRB% DRB%
19.7% 19.8% 13.6% 10.6% 28.9% 29.0%
18.7% 18.1% 11.8% 8.7% 27.0% 28.3%
18.6% 18.1% 11.4% 8.3% 26.3% 27.9%
18.3% 18.1% 10.9% 26.1% 27.3%
18.0% 17.5% 10.2% 26.1% 25.6%

Bolded led the league in DRB%


But since these are just random years and not 3 consecutive years peak, I looked at the 3 consecutive year peak as well and the results:

TRB% ORB% DRB%
Dave C 18.8% 9.2% 28.2%
Bill L 18.9% 11.5% 27.4%


So Laimbeer is actually the better overall rebounder (slightly) while Cowens was better as a defensive rebounder and Laimbeer better on the offensive glass. So all Santa Monica did in regards to bringing up the rebounding is make light of the fact that Laimbeer is actually better on the offensive boards and is more likely to clean up some misses.

So there's another advantage for Death Star. Laimbeer is better on the offensive glass than Cowens.

I was simply using career numbers, since I did not want to put words in your mouth of which Laimbeer prime you're using. Career wise, Cowens tops Laimbeer

With that said, Stop changing your story.

Your Co just said Your using the 32 Year old version of Laimbeer. Who's 3 year peak averaged to about 16% TRB than what you're claiming. So you don't get to have the 16-12 version of Laimbeer and the one who could shoot roughly a league average 3PT % on a very small sample size. Your Laimbeer (who your Co just clarified for us) is worse on the boards than Cowens.

Cowens is flat out a better rebounder than Laimbeer, plain and simple. And that doesn't include all the other factors that Cowens brought to a team that Laimbeer does not.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 10:59 PM
Nice cop out emoji laugh for not having a response. I addressed your message and frankly **** on it, letting you know what version we'd be using and how dominant he was at both spacing the floor and leading a defense en route to a back 2 back title against some of the toughest competition the playoffs have seen to this day.

You're better than that.




No, normally we mention that but the team would close with:

PG: Price
SG: Pierce
SF: Melo [historically outplays KD h2h, even recently as mentioned in the OP, which we like to close here]
PF: Laimbeer
C : Kareem

Size + Playmaking + Defense + Rebounding + Offensive Beasts. Multiple guys who have both proven to be able to defer to others in championship situations or finish in iso. We love this lineup to close.

Im better than what? I addressed the faulty argument that Laimbeer can space the floor. He can't. Dude had a stupid small sample size and even then, he was incredibly average at it. Im supposed to be scared of someone who hits 34% of his 3s taking 96 of them a year?

You went off on a tangent that addressed nothing I brought up

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:05 PM
As tredigs said, we'll close with Price-Pierce-Melo-Laimbeer-KAJ. And since we'll be seeing Melo vs. Durant, I think it's worth pointing out the h2h matchups:

Again, way to cherrypick numbers that make you attempt to look good. 2 game sample size means nothing to me. Also, Melo has "gotten the best of" Durant in 2 match-ups, but his teams went 11-1? What happened to the rest of those games?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 11:05 PM
I was simply using career numbers, since I did not want to put words in your mouth of which Laimbeer prime you're using.

Stop changing your story.

Your Co just said Your using the 32 Year old version of Laimbeer. Who's 3 year peak averaged to about 16% TRB than what you're claiming. So you don't get to have the 16-12 version of Laimbeer and the one who could shoot roughly a league average 3PT % on a very small sample size. Your Laimbeer (who your Co just clarified for us) is worse on the boards than Cowens.

Cowens is flat out a better rebounder than Laimbeer, plain and simple.

Even if we don't use the Laimbeer who was shooting excellent from 3, the fact is that he can still hit a mid-range J. Besides, Cowens is basically the same exact way so if Laimbeer not shooting 3s is a weakness for us, Cowens not shooting 3s is a weakness for you guys. Now I don't think you're attempting to say that but our point is that Laimbeer is capable of spacing the floor even if it's not all the way out to the 3 point line. And as we also mentioned in our write-up, our offense isn't limited to only KAJ post ups and kick outs to Laimbeer. I highly doubt that happens all game long. And hey, we can always play you guys the exact same way since Cowens has similar range (worse really) to Laimbeer.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 11:09 PM
Even if we don't use the Laimbeer who was shooting excellent from 3, the fact is that he can still hit a mid-range J. Besides, Cowens is basically the same exact way so if Laimbeer not shooting 3s is a weakness for us, Cowens not shooting 3s is a weakness for you guys. Now I don't think you're attempting to say that but our point is that Laimbeer is capable of spacing the floor even if it's not all the way out to the 3 point line. And as we also mentioned in our write-up, our offense isn't limited to only KAJ post ups and kick outs to Laimbeer. I highly doubt that happens all game long. And hey, we can always play you guys the exact same way since Cowens has similar range (worse really) to Laimbeer.

Or let him pick his poison:

Either you're getting the better rebounder who is still a more efficient scorer than Cowens, or you're getting a very slightly lesser rebounder (while having boards eaten up by a 28 yr old Dennis Rodman and still leading their team in rpg) with a higher TS% who also spreads it to 3pt land. We'll let you choose.


Im better than what? I addressed the faulty argument that Laimbeer can space the floor. He can't. Dude had a stupid small sample size and even then, he was incredibly average at it. Im supposed to be scared of someone who hits 34% of his 3s taking 96 of them a year?

You went off on a tangent that addressed nothing I brought up
You must've seen a different Pistons team contending if you don't think Bill Laimbeer can both anchor a D (or maybe leading the league in D. Win Shares + D Rating through the playoffs en route to a ship was a fluke?) and space the floor.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 11:11 PM
Again, way to cherrypick numbers that make you attempt to look good. 2 game sample size means nothing to me. Also, Melo has "gotten the best of" Durant in 2 match-ups, but his teams went 11-1? What happened to the rest of those games?

Huh? He's quite clearly gotten the best of Durant for their whole careers. In that snippet, I posted their h2h career numbers, which is a 12 game sample (hence Melo being 11-1). Durant is clearly better now then he was earlier in his career which is why I posted the shooting %'s of the last 5 matchups which is basically KD's prime. In any case, the link is fairly obvious in showing Melo has gotten the best of Durant.

I can post every matchup if you'd really like but I think most people can just click on the link and see for themselves. In those 12 matchups, Melo has owned Durant. No way around it.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:14 PM
Even if we don't use the Laimbeer who was shooting excellent from 3, the fact is that he can still hit a mid-range J. Besides, Cowens is basically the same exact way so if Laimbeer not shooting 3s is a weakness for us, Cowens not shooting 3s is a weakness for you guys. Now I don't think you're attempting to say that but our point is that Laimbeer is capable of spacing the floor even if it's not all the way out to the 3 point line. And as we also mentioned in our write-up, our offense isn't limited to only KAJ post ups and kick outs to Laimbeer. I highly doubt that happens all game long. And hey, we can always play you guys the exact same way since Cowens has similar range (worse really) to Laimbeer.


We’ll have Kareem go to work down low and have 4 shooters around him to space the floor (think Orlando Magic offense in 09 with Dwight except Kareem is a million times better).

You said yourself you're running the Magic offense. Our offense (the Princeton) Utilizies the passing ability of our bigs and Hakeem's ability to score and create from 15-18 feet as well. That in itself creates tremendous spacing, cutting, and ball movement.

Your main offensive structure involves KAJ post ups, or KAJ PnR's. In which case, we have arguably the greatest defensive player ever (Hakeem) and one of the best help-defenders in NBA History, Cowens, to defend both of those situations.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:20 PM
Huh? He's quite clearly gotten the best of Durant for their whole careers. In that snippet, I posted their h2h career numbers, which is a 12 game sample (hence Melo being 11-1). Durant is clearly better now then he was earlier in his career which is why I posted the shooting %'s of the last 5 matchups which is basically KD's prime. In any case, the link is fairly obvious in showing Melo has gotten the best of Durant.

I can post every matchup if you'd really like but I think most people can just click on the link and see for themselves. In those 12 matchups, Melo has owned Durant. No way around it.

What.
Does.
This
Mean.

Im going to maintain the position that H-H match-ups make absolutely 0 sense in an All-time redraft. Zero! I've said this the entire playoffs and basically the entire game. The context of how these numbers were obtained is completely different. These players would play completely different roles on the ATRD teams. I have yet to see a time when the 3 year primes we're using for a player matches up with the 3 year prime of a player that the other team is using. It flat out makes zero sense to think you can learn anything from them.

Here's another thing. How many minutes were Melo and Durant matched up? Melo was a PF more this season according to 82 games. He got 48% of the PF minutes, 8% of the SF minutes and 4% of the C minutes. So you can't tell me with clarity that they were even matched up on one another.

And EVEN if I cared AT ALL about H-H match-ups, Melo is seeing 8 total minutes at the SF position. So if Melo really did own Durant (which it's not even close) then why would I be scared of him? I can simply switch Durant out of the game when Melo is at SF. Not a huge deal to me.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 11:22 PM
What.
Does.
This
Mean.

Im going to maintain the position that H-H match-ups make absolutely 0 sense in an All-time redraft. Zero! I've said this the entire playoffs and basically the entire game. The context of how these numbers were obtained is completely different. These players would play completely different roles on the ATRD teams.

And EVEN if I cared AT ALL about H-H match-ups, Melo is seeing 8 total minutes at the SF position. So if Melo really did own Durant (which it's not even close) then why would I be scared of him? I can simply switch Durant out of the game when Melo is at SF. Not a huge deal to me.

Awesome. In which case, what's your new closing lineup?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 11:22 PM
What.
Does.
This
Mean.

Im going to maintain the position that H-H match-ups make absolutely 0 sense in an All-time redraft. Zero! I've said this the entire playoffs and basically the entire game. The context of how these numbers were obtained is completely different. These players would play completely different roles on the ATRD teams.

And EVEN if I cared AT ALL about H-H match-ups, Melo is seeing 8 total minutes at the SF position. So if Melo really did own Durant (which it's not even close) then why would I be scared of him? I can simply switch Durant out of the game when Melo is at SF. Not a huge deal to me.

KoB asked for our closing lineups, where Melo is in our closing lineup. Hence why we brought it up. Also, like any playoff game, minutes will vary a bit depending on the flow of the game, whose hot etc. If Durant is going off and Melo is having a poor game, we may put in Bowen instead. Conversely, if Melo is scorching hot, we'll leave him in.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:29 PM
Awesome. In which case, what's your new closing lineup?

Are you kidding me. Please tell me you're attempting to troll me.

Please read every sentence you conveniently did not bold.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:30 PM
KoB asked for our closing lineups, where Melo is in our closing lineup. Hence why we brought it up. Also, like any playoff game, minutes will vary a bit depending on the flow of the game, whose hot etc. If Durant is going off and Melo is having a poor game, we may put in Bowen instead. Conversely, if Melo is scorching hot, we'll leave him in.

Which is fine. I'd do the same with funnelling Roy, CHristie, McMllian, Amare etc. The depth charts are just rough estimates.

I just flat out 100% disagree that those Melo VS Durant numbers mean anything in ANY context

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 11:32 PM
You said yourself you're running the Magic offense. Our offense (the Princeton) Utilizies the passing ability of our bigs and Hakeem's ability to score and create from 15-18 feet as well. That in itself creates tremendous spacing, cutting, and ball movement.

Your main offensive structure involves KAJ post ups, or KAJ PnR's. In which case, we have arguably the greatest defensive player ever (Hakeem) and one of the best help-defenders in NBA History, Cowens, to defend both of those situations.

Why can't we still run the Magic offense even if Laimbeer is slightly in a few feet into his range? The principles are still the same. And as we mentioned, it's not our only offense. We aren't limiting ourselves to just the Magic offense when we have the talents of players like Pierce and Melo to iso or Price in the P&R or cutters like Sloan + Pierce receiving passes from Price. It's a part of the offense, big part but not our only offense.

Also, it's funny you mention Princeton offense and talking about Hakeem's passing ability. The irony is that Kareem was actually a better passer over his career than Hakeem was (Hakeem apg topping out at 3.6, AST% topping out at 18.3% vs. Kareem's apg topping out at 5.4 apg, AST% topping out at 19.4%) so if anyone should be running the Princeton offense it's Death Star. But we want Kareem posting up and shooting his unblockable sky hook. Frankly, if SM wants to let Hakeem initiate the offense, we're more then happy to let him do so, his passing is being overrated. The guy isn't Chris Webber. He'll get his fair share of turnovers doing that too.

tredigs
07-27-2013, 11:34 PM
Are you kidding me. Please tell me you're attempting to troll me.

Please read every sentence you conveniently did not bold.

Haha - of course it was a joke dude. I'm JP - though I put more stock in those h2h's than you do, regardless if they're different team dynamics and a smaller sample size. They're both prime, and it's a rare instance in these games where we know exactly how they've gone. I've actually seen nearly all of their games as well and KD has a lot of trouble with Melo's size and varying moves. It's just not his ideal matchup.

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:37 PM
Why can't we still run the Magic offense even if Laimbeer is slightly in a few feet into his range? The principles are still the same. And as we mentioned, it's not our only offense. We aren't limiting ourselves to just the Magic offense when we have the talents of players like Pierce and Melo to iso or Price in the P&R or cutters like Sloan + Pierce receiving passes from Price. It's a part of the offense, big part but not our only offense.

Also, it's funny you mention Princeton offense and talking about Hakeem's passing ability. The irony is that Kareem was actually a better passer over his career than Hakeem was (Hakeem apg topping out at 3.6, AST% topping out at 18.3% vs. Kareem's apg topping out at 5.4 apg, AST% topping out at 19.4%) so if anyone should be running the Princeton offense it's Death Star. But we want Kareem posting up and shooting his unblockable sky hook. Frankly, if SM wants to let Hakeem initiate the offense, we're more then happy to let him do so, his passing is being overrated. The guy isn't Chris Webber. He'll get his fair share of turnovers doing that too.

Remember that Dave Cowens guy? Yea, pretty DAMN good passer.

Hakeem will, of course, be all over the floor over the course of the game. On the Low block. High post. 15-18 on the baseline. The plan is to never let Kareem get a break defensively and test his ability to defend away from the hoop. He of course is an all-time great rim protector. But does that extend to 15-18 feet against a player with Hakeem's quickness/arsenal of offensive moves? His offensive versatility and quickness is something we plan to take advantage of. We are perfectly comfortable letting Cowens or Hakeem intiate the offense. Which we stated in our write-up, if you'd care to read it a little more carefully :)

The_Jamal
07-27-2013, 11:40 PM
Haha - of course it was a joke dude. I'm JP - though I put more stock in those h2h's than you do, regardless if they're different team dynamics and a smaller sample size. They're both prime, and it's a rare instance in these games where we know exactly how they've gone. I've actually seen nearly all of their games as well and KD has a lot of trouble with Melo's size and varying moves. It's just not his ideal matchup.

Figured lol. But I still addressed that.

Even if someone flat out puts ALL their stock into H-H match-ups, Melo is only getting 8 minutes at SF. That's hardly something to be worried about. EVEN THEN, they pretty much play each other to an equal setting. It's not like Durant has been an utter scrub in his match-ups VS Melo teams.

And then there's the issue of how much Durant-Melo matched up at any rate. As I noted before, Melo played a majority of his minutes at PF this season. So how much did they really defend each other? B-ball reference H-H match-ups don't tell you that, which is why it's such a weak piece of data to use.

KnicksorBust
07-27-2013, 11:45 PM
Remember that Dave Cowens guy? Yea, pretty DAMN good passer.

Hakeem will, of course, be all over the floor over the course of the game. On the Low block. High post. 15-18 on the baseline. The plan is to never let Kareem get a break defensively and test his ability to defend away from the hoop. He of course is an all-time great rim protector. But does that extend to 15-18 feet against a player with Hakeem's quickness/arsenal of offensive moves? His offensive versatility and quickness is something we plan to take advantage of. We are perfectly comfortable letting Cowens or Hakeem intiate the offense. Which we stated in our write-up, if you'd care to read it a little more carefully :)

Nowhere else he should be.

Glad to see both teams taking the gloves off and really diving into this matchup. Good to see some real debate in one of these again.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-27-2013, 11:52 PM
Remember that Dave Cowens guy? Yea, pretty DAMN good passer.

Hakeem will, of course, be all over the floor over the course of the game. On the Low block. High post. 15-18 on the baseline. The plan is to never let Kareem get a break defensively and test his ability to defend away from the hoop. He of course is an all-time great rim protector. But does that extend to 15-18 feet against a player with Hakeem's quickness/arsenal of offensive moves? His offensive versatility and quickness is something we plan to take advantage of. We are perfectly comfortable letting Cowens or Hakeem intiate the offense. Which we stated in our write-up, if you'd care to read it a little more carefully :)

Ok, so even if Cowens initiates the offense, he's still going to be more prone to turnovers than a PG which well help us get out and run with Price + KAJ with Pierce as a trailer to hit a 3.

As for Kareem, we're using the young Buck Kareem, who is definitely capable of moving all around the court and defending. And as mentioned, Laimbeer served as a rim protector for those Bad Boy Pistons teams. Everyone knows what he's about so SM isn't going to have a clear path to the hoop without getting knocked on their ***.

mightybosstone
07-28-2013, 03:17 AM
I admit that since he drafted Hakeem, Santa Monica has been my favorite team and he did absolutely nothing to change that, as his entire starting five is composed of players I love and admire. That being said, PSK's team is also stacked, and he brings up a number of good points in his write-up and some of the debate here (which I admit I did not read all of).

But I just love the defensive tenacity and versatility of this Santa Montica team. Hakeem-Durant is an absolute monster duo, and while Death Star feels they have an edge at those two positions, I still don't buy it. Screw regular season numbers or head-to-head match-ups. Hakeem was at his best when he had to go up against other elite centers in the postseason, and this would be the mother of all match-ups. I just think he steps up to the occasion, and I think he has an athletic and strength advantage over Kareem. Also, I don't buy that experience gives Pierce an edge in that match-up. Durant is longer, a more deadly and versatile scorer, and just an overall better basketball player.

I like that Jamal has his squad running a Princeton offense and trying to keep Kareem out of the paint, and I like that he brings up Cowens' help defense on Kareem, which is a monster advantage in this game. I also like Santa Monica's bench a little more, although I don't think it makes a huge difference either made.

Both teams are incredible, but I'm giving it to Santa Monica in 7.

cmellofan15
07-28-2013, 03:39 AM
Voted Deathstar and kinda regretting that seeing as how I could have tied it :laugh2:

Jk. Still backing my vote.

The_Jamal
07-28-2013, 03:49 AM
Gee, I wonder who the poster "cmellofan15" is going to vote for....

The_Jamal
07-28-2013, 04:02 AM
Please vote guys.

18 votes in the finals is absolutely horrid

PatsSoxKnicks
07-28-2013, 04:10 AM
Please vote guys.

18 votes in the finals is absolutely horrid

This

Sadds The Gr8
07-28-2013, 11:45 AM
closest final i can remember

xnick5757
07-28-2013, 01:35 PM
what's the current score

The_Jamal
07-28-2013, 01:43 PM
Current score is correct. Both teams are 1-1 with <100 votes

cmellofan15
07-28-2013, 02:38 PM
Gee, I wonder who the poster "cmellofan15" is going to vote for....

after reading three and a half pages of posting I decided to pick the team with the better argument.

And considering I made that username 5 years ago when Carmelo was apart of my favorite team, the Nuggets, it seems pretty irrelevant now.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-28-2013, 04:34 PM
Statistically, Cowens and Laimbeer were fairly similar :
Top 3 seasons in their peak:

Dave C Bill L Dave C Bill L Dave C Bill L
PER PER WS WS WS/48 WS/48
19.3 19.2 12.0 10.8 0.173 0.182
18.9 18.0 10.8 10.5 0.168 0.181
18.6 17.6 10.7 10.1 0.165 0.176


Playoffs:

PER TS% WS/48
Dave C 16.6 48.00% 0.119
Bill L 14.4 52.60% 0.138


Also, lets be honest, defensively Laimbeer never got the recognition he deserved cause of the way he played. The guy might've been an ******* but he was still very good defensively. Cowens might've been better on defense but those All-defensive team awards don't do justice to Laimbeer because he would never make one of those teams because of his reputation.

In any case, Laimbeer was clearly the more efficient player over their careers and also, in his peak was the better rebounder. So Cowens was the better passer? We don't need Laimbeer for his passing so Death Star doesn't care about that. As for defensively Cowens being better, again, Laimbeer isn't one of our main options on offense. In the context of this matchup, Laimbeer actually does what both teams need better- offensive rebounding. With Kareem, Pierce, Hakeem, Durant, Melo, Roy, etc., neither of these teams are going to Cowens or Laimbeer as main options. They're there to clean up the glass and the fact is that Laimbeer was a better rebounder and more importantly for Death Star, a better offensive rebounder.

And hey, you brought up that era argument earlier. Well Cowens played in a weaker era while Laimbeer played in an era where there were tons of centers (Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Ewing, etc.). Little unfair to bring that up for Kareem but ignore that for Cowens who played in the same era as Kareem.

And while I'm at it, may as well mention the fact that Kareem dominated Cowens so Death Star will certainly try to play Kareem some of those minutes Cowens is getting at Center.

tredigs
07-28-2013, 04:37 PM
Gus Williams' 5 year playoff prime for the late 70s + 80's Sonics: 64 games (ie about equal to the entire career playoff experience of Christie + Roy) - All as a #1. Included 2 Finals runs, one loss to Showtime in the WCF's, and a championship (The Sonics ONLY Championship).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willigu01.html


23/5/4 (48/73%) +2.0 STL. Advanced: WS/48 = .180 (8.5 total WS in 64 games) + PER: 22.2

We could only find him 10-13 minutes. Brandon Roy will be playing 28 for Santa Monica...



Remember, a vote for Death Star is a vote for your galaxy. #DS2013

knicks=love
07-28-2013, 07:22 PM
anyone else find it odd that the two commishes are in the finals? :eyebrow:

The_Jamal
07-28-2013, 07:35 PM
Let's talk about bench player minutes:

Death Star:

Melo-- 24 MPG
Bowen-- 20 MPG
Gus Williams-- 10 MPG
Rick Mahorn-- 4 MPG


Santa Monica:

Brandon Roy-- 34 MPG
Amare--- 18 MPG
Doug Christie-- 10 MPG


The only person on your bench I have to game plan for is Melo. Bowen offers nothing offensively and Gus Williams MPG are inconsequential. He's a very good player, don't get me wrong. But why should I focus any attention on a guy who's getting 10 MPG? That would be like the Spurs game planning on how to stop Norris Cole off the Heat bench in the finals. There's no reason for it because he plays such a small role in this series.



If Santa Monica's bench is superior, then why are they only playing 3 players off its bench, while Death Star is playing 4? Also, Santa Monica vastly underrates Gus Williams.

In their peak 3 seasons, which is what we are using for this game:

PER Total WS WS/season
Gus 21.2 30.1 10.0
Roy 21.6 30.6 10.2


Virtually the same. And then factor in the fact that Gus Williams led the 79 championship winning Sonics team in scoring and was actually it's best player, not DJ. Should've won Finals MVP too. Anyways, Roy and Gus are basically the same.


PSK did my work for me. The difference is, Roy is actually getting minutes where he can actually make a difference in this series. Not to mention, Roy's positional versatility where he can see mismatches at various different positions. Could you imagine Mark Price trying to defend Roy? That's a huge advantage for Santa Monica

Let's also address the Melo VS Amare match-up. In which Death Star "claims" to hold an advantage.

3 year peak:

Amare:

23.8 PPG || 9.2 RPG || 1.3 APG || 1.6 BPG || .636 TS% || .575 eFG% || 27.4% USG || 13.4 WS/Year || .235 WS/48 || 25.7 PER[/B]

Accolades---6x NBA All Star || 4x All NBA 2nd team || 1x All NBA 1st team


[B]Carmelo:

25.6 PPG || 6.8 RPG || 3.0 APG || .53 TS% || .484 eFG% || 7.8 WS/Year || .160 WS/48 || 33.1 USG% || 22.5 PER

Accolades--- 4x All NBA 3rd team || 2x All NBA 2nd team || 6x NBA All Star

We might ask our friends of Death Star. How does Melo have an advantage over Amare in the post? Melo is superior in every statistical category outside of PPG (close) while maintaining a MUCH lower USG% than Melo does. Fact of the matter is that Melo does not know how to play team ball. The guy is an absolute ball-stopper and has no concept of playing defense. Neither does Amare, but it's clear who the superior offensive player is.

KnicksorBust
07-28-2013, 11:27 PM
Congrats to both teams this is a well-deserved final. :)
After a lot of thought I’ve decided that the following were key factors in my decision:

1.) Mookie Blaylock / Doug Christie tandem is far too mediocre to be starting at PG for an All-Time Redraft. Santa Monica backed up their worst starter with their worst backup who is even playing out of position.

2.) Hakeem and Kareem could theoretically slow each other down. Durant and Pierce could wash each other out. Yet I don’t see how Santa Monica combats 24 minutes of Carmelo Anthony. They have no one on defense to slow him down. You could argue that STAT would have his way as well but STAT thrives in PnR and in 18 limited minutes with Doug Christie/Roy running the show I don’t see STAT reaching his potential.

3.) I don’t understand why Santa Monica is using a dated college offense that has had extremely limited success at the pro level. The fact that the Princeton offense puts Hakeem at the high post is a huge issue for me. The Dream had more turnovers in his career than assists. That is a waste of his true talents. The Princeton offense also relies heavily on perimeter shooting and Durant is truly the only sharpshooter on that team. The others are inconsistent or average.

With those three factors in mind, I have decided to vote for Death Star.

The_Jamal
07-29-2013, 05:43 AM
Grats to PSk and Tre :) We had this tied up at one point and then DS just went on a rampage of 6 straight votes.
Happy to see the final score not be 11-9 or some crap like that. But anyway, fun debate for once in the playoffs and I have no issues losing to a great team like DS.

Cheers!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2013, 02:13 PM
Grats to PSk and Tre :) We had this tied up at one point and then DS just went on a rampage of 6 straight votes.
Happy to see the final score not be 11-9 or some crap like that. But anyway, fun debate for once in the playoffs and I have no issues losing to a great team like DS.

Cheers!

Agree, this was one of the best Finals we've had. Some great debate and a close matchup, couldn't have asked for a better end to the All-time. And Jamal, no doubt you had one of my favorite teams in this game.

:cheers:

roshan3ai
07-29-2013, 02:22 PM
On the real. How did PSK win?


:p Just kidding, congratulations PSK

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-29-2013, 02:34 PM
On the real. How did PSK win?


:p Just kidding, congratulations PSK

Because it's rigged.

tredigs
07-29-2013, 02:49 PM
Grats to PSk and Tre :) We had this tied up at one point and then DS just went on a rampage of 6 straight votes.
Happy to see the final score not be 11-9 or some crap like that. But anyway, fun debate for once in the playoffs and I have no issues losing to a great team like DS.

Cheers!

Much better debate than I was expecting, impressive stuff Jamal. The first and probably last of these that I will do haha, but that was fun. Cheeeeeerio

Sadds The Gr8
07-29-2013, 03:04 PM
Because it's rigged.
yea he rigged it.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2013, 03:46 PM
Much better debate than I was expecting, impressive stuff Jamal. The first and probably last of these that I will do haha, but that was fun. Cheeeeeerio

How come? :(

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2013, 03:46 PM
Because it's rigged.


yea he rigged it.

;)

tredigs
07-29-2013, 04:02 PM
How come? :(

I don't know I never do them and am normally a ton more busy than I am this summer, but because you asked HOW COULD I turn ya down PSK ; ]

Plus, I get to go out w/ a 100% victory rate!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-30-2013, 12:41 AM
I don't know I never do them and am normally a ton more busy than I am this summer, but because you asked HOW COULD I turn ya down PSK ; ]

Plus, I get to go out w/ a 100% victory rate!

Well the NBA re-draft might work out with your schedule better than if you aren't as busy after the summer. Hope you do it because it's just as much fun :)