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View Full Version : Biogenesis Whistle-Blower can identify athletes from the NBA taking PED's



6deep
07-25-2013, 02:40 PM
LINK: ESPN OUTSIDE THE LINES (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9508288/biogenesis-whistleblower-broke-open-scandal-says-ncaa-mma-nba-other-athletes-used-clinic-mlb-investigation)

The man who turned the Biogenesis clinic from a quiet investigation in Miami into a national scandal says there are at least a dozen more athletes whose names haven't been exposed and that they come from across the sports world.

Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis of Miami clinic employee who turned boxes of documents over to the Miami New Times last year, declined to name the athletes. But in his first television interview, Fischer told "Outside the Lines" that numerous sports had at least one athlete who received performance-enhancing drugs from clinic founder Tony Bosch.

"This isn't a 2013 thing or a 2012 thing; some of these people have been on the books since 2009," Fischer said.

Fischer said he and associates have identified athletes from the NBA, NCAA, professional boxing, tennis and MMA, in addition to other professional baseball players who have not yet been identified. As far as he knows, Fischer said, Bosch had no clients from the NFL or NHL.

He said the only sports entity he has heard from was Major League Baseball.

The athletes not yet publicly named come from the documents Fischer took from the clinic, documents he said another employee asked him to take for safekeeping. The number of athletes involved with the clinic, based on what he saw and heard during his time with Biogenesis, is far more than people realize, he said.

"In just the four years that I know, it's got to be well over a hundred, easy," he said. "It's almost scary to think about how many people have gone through [Bosch's treatments] and how long he's gotten away with this."

Bosch has been cooperating with MLB for more than a month, providing what sources have said are extensive records of his connection to 20 to 25 players. The Milwaukee Brewers' Ryan Braun was already confronted with evidence, and he agreed to a season-ending 65-game suspension and forfeited his remaining salary for the year. Other suspensions, including for the New York Yankees' Alex Rodriguez, are expected within the next two weeks.

In Fischer's interview with "Outside the Lines," he said he never expected the insanity that turned his life "upside down" after he released the documents.

Fischer was a client of Bosch's for two years, believing the man known as "Dr. T" was a medical doctor. Bosch is not but has presented himself as one for years, treating patients like Fischer with weight-loss regimens of prescription drugs. Fischer, who worked in marketing for years, said he offered to start a marketing campaign for Biogenesis last year and that Bosch responded by asking him to invest in the company.

Fischer said he gave Bosch $4,000 in September with the promise he would get $4,800 in return. Fischer was named the company's marketing director. After receiving $1,200, he said the payments stopped. Several former Bosch associates said they were also owed money.

"When I would approach him for money, he'd be like, 'I don't have it. I don't have it.' And I was like, 'I want my money.' He was like, 'I'm Dr. Tony Bosch. What are you going to do about it?'" Fischer said. "So this is what I did about it."

He took some of the Biogenesis documents in his possession to the New Times. His intention, he said, was to spark a federal investigation. After seeing the names of local police, attorneys and a judge in the documents, Fischer said he wasn't comfortable going to law enforcement.

"I was really, really counting on somebody from law enforcement to come up and take me under their wing and have me as a witness in a criminal investigation, but that never happened," he said.

Fischer said he never asked the New Times for money and never went to any of the leagues for money.

A few days before the article was set to run in January, Fischer said he was threatened by someone who he thought was a friend.

"I received that threat that, 'If you don't stop the article, if certain people are mentioned, you're going to be killed. This is not somebody to mess around with,' and so on and so forth. That freaked me out enough," he said.

The friend said he would give Fischer the balance of the money owed him if Fischer would turn over documents. Fischer took $4,000 -- "I only wanted the $3,600 I was owed" -- and turned over some documents. He kept copies, however, and became one of the most wanted men in South Florida.

Major League Baseball sent investigators to his mother's house, pounding on the door and saying they would offer money, according to Fischer's sister, Suzanne. "Outside the Lines" reporters found an MLB investigator's business card at the home that said, "Please call -- We know time = $. Call ASAP."

Eventually, MLB investigators found him and asked for his cooperation, Fischer said. He said he was handed an envelope with $5,000 as a down payment and eventually was given another $500. Fisher said he was reluctant to turn over documents, that he would have to leave the Miami area to start a new life if he cooperated. Eventually, he said, MLB offered him $125,000, a figure confirmed by a source familiar with MLB's investigation, but he turned that down.

"Previously, I had been getting calls from them every day," he said. "Once I turned them down for the $125,000, two days later they wrote me a letter instructing me not to destroy any documents and to keep them around."

On March 24, he said, while transporting the documents, his car was broken into and four of the seven boxes he had were stolen. The Boca Raton Police Department report of the incident states a handgun and a laptop were also stolen. One night, Fischer said, he was chased by three cars until a friend and police intervened. He said someone tried to poison one of his dogs and that several times he found feces on his car.

Fischer said he is still willing to cooperate with Major League Baseball, although he felt harassed by investigators. What he can't believe, he said, is that law enforcement never took up the case and that the Florida Department of Health fined Bosch only $5,000.

"I don't have any friends anymore," Fischer said. "The people that I thought were my friends ended up abandoning me or they side with the things they've seen in the media and read that because I've tried to stay quiet.

"I don't go to the same locations I used to go to. My blinds are closed all the time. I have a concealed weapons permit, but now I continually carry a weapon. It's not what I expected. It's not what I got involved for."

ChitownBears22
07-25-2013, 02:41 PM
LeBron

Gators123
07-25-2013, 02:42 PM
Austin Daye

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 02:51 PM
Seriously though, Amare.

bucketss
07-25-2013, 02:51 PM
Drummond.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 02:52 PM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

mjm07
07-25-2013, 02:53 PM
Greg Oden.

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 02:54 PM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

PED's help anyone get stronger, depending on where you take them and what you train, they can help any athlete.

RowBTrice
07-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Probably half the Heat. I mean, both are in Miami so it just makes sense.

bucketss
07-25-2013, 03:00 PM
if rose took them maybe he would have returned when he was suppose to lol.

GunFactor187
07-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Austin Daye

This.

TheNumber37
07-25-2013, 03:03 PM
LeBron of course, but his name would never.come out.

Slug3
07-25-2013, 03:08 PM
What evidence does this person actually have? That is an honest question. Is he just saying names and people are running with it?

Sly Guy
07-25-2013, 03:09 PM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

honestly, get your head out of the sand. If you think the NBA isn't as full of PEDs as Lance Armstrong was, then you're seriously thick. Just because it isn't reported doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The day is almost at hand where the NBA will be dealing with the same issues baseball has in these regards.

PEDs help you jump higher, run faster, greater endurance, put on weight in the off season, whatever you need them to do. It can help any athlete. The most poignant example I can think of is chris bosh on his last season with the raptors. Dude was a stick his entire career up to that point, and he goes off in an offseason and looks like he put on 40lbs. Lifting weights and proper diet will help you gain weight, but not at that rate. He was totally getting help through some kinds of other means. Now, he's reverted back more in-line with his normal body weight in Miami, which to me indicated he's probably given them up, but if you look at a guy like Dwight, a 270lb monster who can propel his massive frame 40" into the air [when healthy], and it's hard to argue that the simple physics of the scenario is completely natural.

I personally don't have a problem with players using PEDs, simply because I think it's too hard to regulate effectively [the olympics has always been a race that the cheaters find a new way of masking their PEDs while the regulators are trying to come up with new method of testing for them], but my view is in the minority for certain, so I expect a major fallout if not from this story, than another one in the near future.

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 03:13 PM
Whistleblowers are gutsies. It takes a lot of guts to be a whistleblower. You always lose your career. You are black listed in your field. Your friends turn on you and you have to begin a new career completely from scratch.


I am glad the whistleblower stood up for what they think is right even though I disagree with the premise.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:16 PM
wouldn't be surprised if Corey Brewer shows up on that list

J4KOP99
07-25-2013, 03:19 PM
There's a reason Kobe drops like 20 lbs each time the summer Olympics start

FlakeyFool
07-25-2013, 03:21 PM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

Well hgh can make you taller

C_Mund
07-25-2013, 03:21 PM
Seriously though, Amare.

Something like this wouldn't surprise me. It's not always the ones trying to get bigger/faster, a lot of these drugs help people come back from major injury. I remember this is what Andy Pettis we through with the Yankees. Building up muscle tissue around injured ligaments/tendons/joints is a big part of rehab. Somebody like Amar'e may not have been trying to get a leg up on the competition so much as trying to regain their pre-injury strength.

deaner
07-25-2013, 03:23 PM
if rose took them maybe he would have returned when he was suppose to lol.

Or he used them and waited till he would clear a drug test before returning to the NBA.

Sly Guy
07-25-2013, 03:23 PM
as a follow up to my comment above, here's an article from espn on the NBA's drug testing policies:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/51305/gaps-in-nba-drug-testing

Yankeefan213
07-25-2013, 03:24 PM
Maybe this is why Kobe is always recovering from injuries so quickly

LeperMessiah
07-25-2013, 03:26 PM
Kobe.

LeperMessiah
07-25-2013, 03:27 PM
wouldn't be surprised if Corey Brewer shows up on that list

Why is that? (I'm not calling you out just genuinely curious)

gotoHcarolina52
07-25-2013, 03:28 PM
JJ Barea

Ill21
07-25-2013, 03:29 PM
Dwight Howard

Mr_Jones
07-25-2013, 03:33 PM
Well hgh can make you taller

Paul George! He's 6'10!

ThunderousDemon
07-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Wade

NYKnicks4511
07-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Von Wafer.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 03:45 PM
PED's help anyone get stronger, depending on where you take them and what you train, they can help any athlete.

but it cant help u put the ball in the net, u can give Brandon Jennings all the PED's in the world but it aint gonna make him shoot 50%. like I said its not really an issue in the NBA like other sports where it can play a huge role.

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 03:47 PM
Something like this wouldn't surprise me. It's not always the ones trying to get bigger/faster, a lot of these drugs help people come back from major injury. I remember this is what Andy Pettis we through with the Yankees. Building up muscle tissue around injured ligaments/tendons/joints is a big part of rehab. Somebody like Amar'e may not have been trying to get a leg up on the competition so much as trying to regain their pre-injury strength.

These are the situations that I don't really mind when players use them, but I know thats not really a popular opinion.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 03:48 PM
honestly, get your head out of the sand. If you think the NBA isn't as full of PEDs as Lance Armstrong was, then you're seriously thick. Just because it isn't reported doesn't mean it isn't an issue. The day is almost at hand where the NBA will be dealing with the same issues baseball has in these regards.

PEDs help you jump higher, run faster, greater endurance, put on weight in the off season, whatever you need them to do. It can help any athlete. The most poignant example I can think of is chris bosh on his last season with the raptors. Dude was a stick his entire career up to that point, and he goes off in an offseason and looks like he put on 40lbs. Lifting weights and proper diet will help you gain weight, but not at that rate. He was totally getting help through some kinds of other means. Now, he's reverted back more in-line with his normal body weight in Miami, which to me indicated he's probably given them up, but if you look at a guy like Dwight, a 270lb monster who can propel his massive frame 40" into the air [when healthy], and it's hard to argue that the simple physics of the scenario is completely natural.

I personally don't have a problem with players using PEDs, simply because I think it's too hard to regulate effectively [the olympics has always been a race that the cheaters find a new way of masking their PEDs while the regulators are trying to come up with new method of testing for them], but my view is in the minority for certain, so I expect a major fallout if not from this story, than another one in the near future.

so pro athletes with the help of world class personal trainers cant get bigger? happens all the time in all sports cleantly too. The NBA is full of freak athletes rather clean or not but the majority of them stink at playing the game. Obvioulsy they are in the NBA but its FAR from the same as the NFL or MLB

uptown0364
07-25-2013, 03:49 PM
http://www.totalprosports.com/2013/03/04/lebron-james-link-steroid-clinic-miami-report-incarcerated-bob-video/

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 03:51 PM
but it cant help u put the ball in the net, u can give Brandon Jennings all the PED's in the world but it aint gonna make him shoot 50%. like I said its not really an issue in the NBA like other sports where it can play a huge role.

PED's would help you in basketball more so than baseball.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 03:54 PM
What, how? it is an epidemic in baseball since the late 90's, hall of famers were made and records were broken from the use of PED's...

Cali4rnia
07-25-2013, 03:57 PM
Austin Daye
They should let Amare use it cuz he still sucks.

C_Mund
07-25-2013, 03:57 PM
These are the situations that I don't really mind when players use them, but I know thats not really a popular opinion.

I actually agree, but it would be super difficult to govern. Like, if you hurt your wrist really bad, you can still run and strengthen your legs while you're taking supplements to speed up your recovery so that would be quite the advantage for when you return. I dunno, very very slippery slope.

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 04:01 PM
What, how? it is an epidemic in baseball since the late 90's, hall of famers were made and records were broken from the use of PED's...

Statistically speaking, steroid users and nonusers have the same exact stats.

However, ignoring that, it's just common sense. Baseball is the most mechanical sport. It doesn't matter how strong you are, you can't learn how to hit a curveball with steroids. Steroids in basketball will help you be stronger than other players and increase your vertical.

A game based on mechanics means there will be less benefits with steroids. A game based on athleticism means the gains from steroids are much greater.

pd1dish
07-25-2013, 04:04 PM
its sad that these days if you try to uncover the truth, your life is at risk. and the biggest problem of all is that he is scared to go to law enforcement. terrible justice system we have here...

still1ballin
07-25-2013, 04:07 PM
Lebron

lamzoka
07-25-2013, 04:08 PM
Lebron

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 04:09 PM
but it cant help u put the ball in the net, u can give Brandon Jennings all the PED's in the world but it aint gonna make him shoot 50%. like I said its not really an issue in the NBA like other sports where it can play a huge role.

They can sure as hell help you get to the rim quicker, beat your man, jump higher, outmuscle your man in the paint...I think you are looking at the game a little narrowly in this regard.

ManRam
07-25-2013, 04:09 PM
Player I Don't Like

RLundi
07-25-2013, 04:10 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if Kobe was on them to heal through his injuries.

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 04:10 PM
Statistically speaking, steroid users and nonusers have the same exact stats.

However, ignoring that, it's just common sense. Baseball is the most mechanical sport. It doesn't matter how strong you are, you can't learn how to hit a curveball with steroids. Steroids in basketball will help you be stronger than other players and increase your vertical.

A game based on mechanics means there will be less benefits with steroids. A game based on athleticism means the gains from steroids are much greater.

It's impossible to know who all the steroid users are, so how can you even make a statistical comparison?

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 04:12 PM
I actually agree, but it would be super difficult to govern. Like, if you hurt your wrist really bad, you can still run and strengthen your legs while you're taking supplements to speed up your recovery so that would be quite the advantage for when you return. I dunno, very very slippery slope.

Very true, it would be nice to be able to trust people with that kind of stuff haha.

Shmontaine
07-25-2013, 04:14 PM
but it cant help u put the ball in the net, u can give Brandon Jennings all the PED's in the world but it aint gonna make him shoot 50%. like I said its not really an issue in the NBA like other sports where it can play a huge role.

You ever hear of Rashard Lewis???

suspended in beginning of '09 for use of PEDs... how has his career been post suspension?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 04:14 PM
It's impossible to know who all the steroid users are, so how can you even make a statistical comparison?

You take the aggregate. The caught steroid users will all be steroid users and the rest either won't be or will be that. That means if there is a difference between steroid users and nonsteroid users it would show up in the data no matter what.

Unless, 100 percent of players are taking steroids. That would be the only way the data doesn't matter.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 04:14 PM
They can sure as hell help you get to the rim quicker, beat your man, jump higher, outmuscle your man in the paint...I think you are looking at the game a little narrowly in this regard.

please half the NBA, the majority of the NBA has great speed, quickness, agility, etc. How many people on this forum say guys like Blake, Howard, etc are overrated and have no skill? How many Tyrus Thomas' are out there rotting away every day? Now how many players have shatted a baseball, a record, a higher batting avg? Hundreds easily. PED's do help incrase vision too.

Yankeefan213
07-25-2013, 04:14 PM
http://www.totalprosports.com/2013/03/04/lebron-james-link-steroid-clinic-miami-report-incarcerated-bob-video/
Hahahahahaha you have to be kidding. Incarcerated bob strikes again!

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 04:15 PM
You ever hear of Rashard Lewis???

suspended in beginning of '09 for use of PEDs... how has his career been post suspension?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html

Lewis was a gunner tho and for every Rashard Lewis there are 20 A-Rods

and Lewis' #'s didnt dip much after that

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 04:16 PM
please half the NBA, the majority of the NBA has great speed, quickness, agility, etc. How many people on this forum say guys like Blake, Howard, etc are overrated and have no skill? How many Tyrus Thomas' are out there rotting away every day? Now how many players have shatted a baseball, a record, a higher batting avg? Hundreds easily. PED's do help incrase vision too.

Statistically no. I just explained this.

The players that are good would likely be good again. Steroids aren't helping them with their mechanics, film study, or their ability to predict what a pitcher is gonna throw. A-Rod would have been ****ing badass without steroids.

Steroids in basketball would be far more beneficial.

Shmontaine
07-25-2013, 04:17 PM
Lewis was a gunner tho and for every Rashard Lewis there are 20 A-Rods

and Lewis' #'s didnt dip much after that

That's not the point. the point is, PED's help you in basketball, probably more so than baseball.

uptown0364
07-25-2013, 04:22 PM
One of the biggest tell tale signs of steroids is receding hair lines. Anyone have a pretty quick increase in their receding hair line the past few years?

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 04:23 PM
That's not the point. the point is, PED's help you in basketball, probably more so than baseball.

how is that mkaing your point? LEwis was a jump shooting 3pt gunner his whole career. PED's didnt help his shot. I cant believe i have to even argue this. PED's are literally an epidemic in baseball and nearly ruined the sport. Im telling you know that PED's are a much bigger issue in the MLB and NFL and its not even close

TrueFan420
07-25-2013, 04:24 PM
Seriously though, Amare.

They ain't working then

deaner
07-25-2013, 04:30 PM
My guess is ElleBJ leads the pack.

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 04:31 PM
please half the NBA, the majority of the NBA has great speed, quickness, agility, etc. How many people on this forum say guys like Blake, Howard, etc are overrated and have no skill? How many Tyrus Thomas' are out there rotting away every day? Now how many players have shatted a baseball, a record, a higher batting avg? Hundreds easily. PED's do help incrase vision too.

You don't think strength and endurance don't help in basketball? It seems like the optimal sport for roids.

Steroids don't help hand eye coordination but baseball players are hitting better while on them.

Two Magic players were busted for using and they just so happened to get to the finals. If they were not cheating, maybe they don't get by the Cavs and the Lakers play Cleveland that year. Steroids give anyone a MAJOR advantage in any physical activity.

Believe me, I know from experience. I did one cycle when I was 25. I dropped 30 pounds of body fat in a month and went from struggling to bench 225 ten times to benching 350 with no issues. It healed my shoulder injury to the point where I felt no pain. It is a miracle drug if it did not have the side affects. I would lose my temper to the point I would black out. But it did help me play basketball at the park. I was able to play non stop defense and never get tired. It helped my jump shot because I could get my legs into the shot without being tired. Thinking that b-ball players would not use roids is naïve.

KingPosey
07-25-2013, 04:36 PM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

PEDs would help a basketball player infinitely more than a baseball player. It's silly that people ignore that.

People just don't know a thing about them, but everyone acts like a doctor/chemist/ physical therapist/trainer.

colinskik
07-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Given his combination of massive size, strength, agility, quickness, and success and proximity to the clinic, you have to think that Lebron is a definite suspect. Would really be a blow to the game if that's the case.

Shmontaine
07-25-2013, 04:40 PM
how is that mkaing your point? LEwis was a jump shooting 3pt gunner his whole career. PED's didnt help his shot. I cant believe i have to even argue this. PED's are literally an epidemic in baseball and nearly ruined the sport. Im telling you know that PED's are a much bigger issue in the MLB and NFL and its not even close

how can you say PEDs didn't help his shot. he's never reached the level of play post suspension. his aggression and ability to get to the line have all but been eliminated. he was far more than the corner 3 player he is now. the fact that he's become strictly a corner shooter just backs up this point more

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rashard%20Lewis

his stats have declined greatly in every area post PED... it's pretty clear IMO..

J4KOP99
07-25-2013, 04:41 PM
Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Dwight... they're all on some ****.

heyman321
07-25-2013, 04:42 PM
Kobe for sure.

ManRam
07-25-2013, 04:44 PM
I think it's possible that maybe there are some freakishly natural athletes in the NBA. I mean, we are talking the best of the best athletes here...the top 0.0001%. If you're naming names just because a player is 1) good 2) hyper-athletic you're just going on a wild witch hunt, and that's dumb.

If the players busted already, and the players busted in baseball (remember, the majority have been scrubs/scrawny guys) are any sign, well, it shows that there's no reason to stereotype steroid users.

J4KOP99
07-25-2013, 04:49 PM
I think it's possible that maybe there are some freakishly natural athletes in the NBA. I mean, we are talking the best of the best athletes here...the top 0.0001%. If you're naming names just because a player is 1) good 2) hyper-athletic you're just going on a wild witch hunt, and that's dumb.

If the players busted already, and the players busted in baseball (remember, the majority have been scrubs/scrawny guys) are any sign, well, it shows that there's no reason to stereotype steroid users.

forget the good an hyper athletic parts. What about when some of these guys are healing from major injuries at a rate previously unheard of?

J4KOP99
07-25-2013, 04:51 PM
I agree that with modern technology and the workout regimens/trainers these athletes have, they have the ability to be in incredible shape but I focus more on their insane recovery time regarding injuries.

uptown0364
07-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Lebron Before Roids (http://crankuptheheat.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lebronrookie.jpg)

Chronz
07-25-2013, 05:01 PM
PEDs would help a basketball player infinitely more than a baseball player.

I dont know much about baseball but the radioheads that talk about it sure dont make it sound that way.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:04 PM
You don't think strength and endurance don't help in basketball? It seems like the optimal sport for roids.

Steroids don't help hand eye coordination but baseball players are hitting better while on them.

Two Magic players were busted for using and they just so happened to get to the finals. If they were not cheating, maybe they don't get by the Cavs and the Lakers play Cleveland that year. Steroids give anyone a MAJOR advantage in any physical activity.

Believe me, I know from experience. I did one cycle when I was 25. I dropped 30 pounds of body fat in a month and went from struggling to bench 225 ten times to benching 350 with no issues. It healed my shoulder injury to the point where I felt no pain. It is a miracle drug if it did not have the side affects. I would lose my temper to the point I would black out. But it did help me play basketball at the park. I was able to play non stop defense and never get tired. It helped my jump shot because I could get my legs into the shot without being tired. Thinking that b-ball players would not use roids is naïve.

nowhere didi i say they are not in bball or that they cant help a bball player bcuz they obviously can but they dont help as much as baseball. Bonds, A-rod, Clemens, McGuire, Sosa, Palmero, Braun, Canseco and the list goes on and on and on, these are hall of fame, MVP, record breaking players bcuz of PED's

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:05 PM
how can you say PEDs didn't help his shot. he's never reached the level of play post suspension. his aggression and ability to get to the line have all but been eliminated. he was far more than the corner 3 player he is now. the fact that he's become strictly a corner shooter just backs up this point more

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rashard%20Lewis

his stats have declined greatly in every area post PED... it's pretty clear IMO..

age wasnt involved in the decline? he was 10 years into the league by then

RLundi
07-25-2013, 05:06 PM
Player I Don't Like

:laugh2:

justinnum1
07-25-2013, 05:07 PM
Lebron Before Roids (http://crankuptheheat.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lebronrookie.jpg)

:dance:

LAKERMANIA
07-25-2013, 05:08 PM
Lebron easily

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 05:10 PM
I dont know much about baseball but the radioheads that talk about it sure dont make it sound that way.

Well in a way it is better to use roids in basketball or football then in baseball. In baseball, you only get to use this advantage of strength and added speed a very small amount of time. The three to four at bats per game and the few times the ball is hit your way. But in basketball, you get the advantage of the drug every trip down the defensive end of the floor and every time you shoot the ball. Depending who is using them that could be up to 20 times a game.

They make a much bigger deal about it in baseball because people are breaking records that old people hold so dear to the heart. So they get up in arms that players are playing better then the heroes of yesteryear. Baseball stats are generally regarded more sacred than any other sport.

Shmontaine
07-25-2013, 05:11 PM
age wasnt involved in the decline? he was 10 years into the league by then

you can make any excuse you'd like.

he was 28, what the general consensus is when players enter their prime... his 'prime' years, coinciding with his 'prime' contract, coinciding with the end of PED use, were his worst.

You're reaching here.

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 05:13 PM
nowhere didi i say they are not in bball or that they cant help a bball player bcuz they obviously can but they dont help as much as baseball. Bonds, A-rod, Clemens, McGuire, Sosa, Palmero, Braun, Canseco and the list goes on and on and on, these are hall of fame, MVP, record breaking players bcuz of PED's

Well we don't know what basketball players are using. Say this whistleblower names Kobe, Dwight, Lebron, Wade, and other big name guys. They would have the same stigma as the big name baseball players.

sammid21
07-25-2013, 05:13 PM
So thats why Lebron took his talents to south beach. i guess its the reason he never gets injured. Wade also has symptoms. Kobe might be on them too with how quick he recovers from injury

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Well in a way it is better to use roids in basketball or football then in baseball. In baseball, you only get to use this advantage of strength and added speed a very small amount of time. The three to four at bats per game and the few times the ball is hit your way. But in basketball, you get the advantage of the drug every trip down the defensive end of the floor and every time you shoot the ball. Depending who is using them that could be up to 20 times a game.

They make a much bigger deal about it in baseball because people are breaking records that old people hold so dear to the heart. So they get up in arms that players are playing better then the heroes of yesteryear. Baseball stats are generally regarded more sacred than any other sport.

this is just not true

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 05:19 PM
So thats why Lebron took his talents to south beach. i guess its the reason he never gets injured. Wade also has symptoms. Kobe might be on them too with how quick he recovers from injury

I think Kobe used about years ago when he gained about 25 to 30 pounds of muscle over one summer. I believe it was 02-03. Now his body looks kind of weak with no muscle definition. But I wouldn't put it past him.

That is the problem with so many "great" baseball payers getting caught. It made me suspicious of every athlete from then on out. I suspected Lance Armstrong, Kobe, Lebron, Howard, Tiger and many others before there was any evidence. Is that fair? No, but in some cases my suspicions were proven right. Time will tell about the others

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 05:21 PM
this is just not true

I think it is. Bruan got busted the same day that the NFL Bronco was busted. Who did they concentrate on? Football is a much more popular sport. But they hardly mention the Bronco and have not stopped about Bruan for 2 days

4milesperday
07-25-2013, 05:22 PM
The only drug ill be worried about is crack, they keep running and never get tired.

Slug3
07-25-2013, 05:23 PM
If its Lebron or Kobe or something I can't see the NBA doing something. I think it would hurt the league just as much as it does the player.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:24 PM
you can make any excuse you'd like.

he was 28, what the general consensus is when players enter their prime... his 'prime' years, coinciding with his 'prime' contract, coinciding with the end of PED use, were his worst.

You're reaching here.

your not reaching?

2009: 17ppg, 3pt FG 39.7%, FG% 43.9. 79GP, 36MPG
2010: 14ppg, 3pt FG 39.7%, FG% 43.5 72GP, 32MPG
2011: 12ppg, 3pt FG 31%, FG 41%. 25GP, 32MPG

looks to me more of 10 years of wear and tear combined with injuries leading to less minutes

BHF
07-25-2013, 05:24 PM
only player i can think of is Wade he came back from major injuries and he was bigger faster stronger and jumped higher than ever before he also started to have that roid monkey face.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:25 PM
I think it is. Bruan got busted the same day that the NFL Bronco was busted. Who did they concentrate on? Football is a much more popular sport. But they hardly mention the Bronco and have not stopped about Bruan for 2 days

that wasnt what i was reffering to. Besides Miller used pot not PED's.

Shmontaine
07-25-2013, 05:29 PM
your not reaching?

2009: 17ppg, 3pt FG 39.7%, FG% 43.9. 79GP, 36MPG
2010: 14ppg, 3pt FG 39.7%, FG% 43.5 72GP, 32MPG
2011: 12ppg, 3pt FG 31%, FG 41%. 25GP, 32MPG

looks to me more of 10 years of wear and tear combined with injuries leading to less minutes

I guess we can be done with this argument. we simply disagree. You don't think performance enhancing drugs actually enhance performance. he was probably just taking them by accident, and subsequently declined as a player due to age and not the fact that he was no longer taking performance enhancing drugs...

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:33 PM
I guess we can be done with this argument. we simply disagree. You don't think performance enhancing drugs actually enhance performance. he was probably just taking them by accident, and subsequently declined as a player due to age and not the fact that he was no longer taking performance enhancing drugs...

or how about the fact that Lewis (at least claims) he took an over the counter prodcut that ended up having a banned substance? the report was it was a vitamin supp

More-Than-Most
07-25-2013, 05:34 PM
3 guys I know who wouldnt... James/Kobe/Durant. Not joking either. Their work ethic is insane for them to ever rely on drugs. I could be wrong but I would bet my house on them being clean

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-25-2013, 05:36 PM
or how about the fact that Lewis (at least claims) he took an over the counter prodcut that ended up having a banned substance? the report was it was a vitamin supp

I think we have learned by now to not trust anybody when it comes to steroid use. SEE Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Braun, and so on and so forth. Everyone denies it. They always blame everybody else.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 05:39 PM
I think we have learned by now to not trust anybody when it comes to steroid use. SEE Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Braun, and so on and so forth. Everyone denies it. They always blame everybody else.

no doubt about that. but they lied bout their use all together but there are others that have taken over the counter prodcuts that shown up on drug tests. By from reading the Lewis article it didnt sound like it was something he had been doing for a while or had even done before at all

sammid21
07-25-2013, 05:42 PM
3 guys I know who wouldnt... James/Kobe/Durant. Not joking either. Their work ethic is insane for them to ever rely on drugs. I could be wrong but I would bet my house on them being clean

Dude, James has all the symptons, unless youre talking about Mike James, Kobe is probably off them by now, durant is the only one who you can tell he hasnt done them

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 05:46 PM
Dude, James has all the symptons, unless youre talking about Mike James, Kobe is probably off them by now, durant is the only one who you can tell he hasnt done them

Actually he doesn't. He's the same build as when he came in and his jaw line never got bigger.

Dwade is someone that's suspect because his jaw line did in fact get bigger while being in the league.

I found a picture.

http://www.lightlybraisedturnip.com/storage/sports/121009-wade-jaw-graph10K.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1349762644 741

ManRam
07-25-2013, 05:50 PM
Also, if we're comparing James in HS/as a rookie to now, well, there's no "evidence" there. He was a boy. Of course he was gonna fill out.

We knew since he was like 13 that he was gonna be an all-world athlete. Why is it hard to believe that he just could be the 0.000000001% of athletes. Someone has to be.

Nothing but wild (more like wishful) accusations.

rocket
07-25-2013, 05:54 PM
What evidence does this person actually have? That is an honest question. Is he just saying names and people are running with it?

Yeah he's just saying names and people are running with it

come on MAN!

D1JM
07-25-2013, 05:54 PM
Also, if we're comparing James in HS/as a rookie to now, well, there's no "evidence" there. He was a boy. Of course he was gonna fill out.

We knew since he was like 13 that he was gonna be an all-world athlete. Why is it hard to believe that he just could be the 0.000000001% of athletes. Someone has to be.

Nothing but wild (more like wishful) accusations.

no one is questioning the talent. they are questioning the strength.

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 05:59 PM
You take the aggregate. The caught steroid users will all be steroid users and the rest either won't be or will be that. That means if there is a difference between steroid users and nonsteroid users it would show up in the data no matter what.

Unless, 100 percent of players are taking steroids. That would be the only way the data doesn't matter.

But if there are users in the "rest" pool, depending upon how many, couldn't they potentially be bringing up the statistics of that pool so they are not actually equal?

Sly Guy
07-25-2013, 05:59 PM
so pro athletes with the help of world class personal trainers cant get bigger? happens all the time in all sports cleantly too. The NBA is full of freak athletes rather clean or not but the majority of them stink at playing the game. Obvioulsy they are in the NBA but its FAR from the same as the NFL or MLB

lol, you can put on weight, but are you seriously expecting me to believe that some guy spotting you in a gym is able to help you gain 25% of your body mass during the course of an off season? Remember, 82 games+ playoffs takes it's toll and these players need their rest to let their bodies recover as well, so it's not like it's a solid 4 months of time either. Do you really think 'world class trainers' make that much of a difference? Working out is a relatively simple concept, you put your body in a position to injure itself through high resistance, and your body responds by building muscle to minimize that risk. 'World class trainers' have more influence of tailoring those activities to best suit the game you play, not be able to magically add the muscle for you....

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 06:03 PM
this is just not true

No, it really is.

LoveMeOrHateMe
07-25-2013, 06:11 PM
Lebron they're coming for you

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 06:11 PM
But if there are users in the "rest" pool, depending upon how many, couldn't they potentially be bringing up the statistics of that pool so they are not actually equal?


The results wouldn't be exactly the same for both sides even if there is steroid users in the nonuser side of the results.

Caught Steroid Users
X Result

Noncaught Steroid Users and Nonusers
X Result

If steroids did make a difference in baseball we'd see it in the statistics regardless of how diluted the sample is.

IndyRealist
07-25-2013, 06:26 PM
but it cant help u put the ball in the net, u can give Brandon Jennings all the PED's in the world but it aint gonna make him shoot 50%. like I said its not really an issue in the NBA like other sports where it can play a huge role.

The conversation about MJ not being the greatest always devolves to, "Well these days players are just more athletic. They're stronger, faster, jump higher, etc." So, do you really think it PED wouldn't give people an advantage in the NBA?

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 06:31 PM
No, it really is.

its true that the past baseball players started alleging current players for using roids bcuz they're breaking their records? your a ****ing moron if u believe that especially since its ya know true that they were juicing

Guppyfighter
07-25-2013, 06:35 PM
its true that the past baseball players started alleging current players for using roids bcuz they're breaking their records? your a ****ing moron if u believe that especially since its ya know true that they were juicing

I am guessing you are 15.

KnickaBocka.44
07-25-2013, 06:38 PM
its true that the past baseball players started alleging current players for using roids bcuz they're breaking their records? your a ****ing moron if u believe that especially since its ya know true that they were juicing

Are you kidding? Obviously they are illegal in every sport but baseball prides itself on statistics. The fact that steroids distorted their statistics is part of the reason why it's such a big deal.

lpdunks8
07-25-2013, 06:40 PM
You guys all seem to be focusing on anabolic steroids (talking about bulking up and being stronger). The most effective PED for basketball players would probably be EPO. Look it up if you've never heard of it.

There would be no physical body change for anyone on it.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:45 PM
Why is that? (I'm not calling you out just genuinely curious)

it was a joke. Obviously not a good one.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:48 PM
Who would have thought a 6'7", 215 lb 17 year old would fill out?

Must be roids....

ManRam
07-25-2013, 06:52 PM
no one is questioning the talent. they are questioning the strength.

Did you read my post? I understand that :laugh2: I didn't once say anything about talent.


Maybe I'm being naive, but again, this guy was on the cover of SI when he was like 16. He was an elite athlete from day one. Why can't he just be that 0.00000001%. Someone's gotta be the best athlete in the world all-naturally, and I don't think it's foolish to think it is him. We knew he was gonna be a star before he got through puberty, let alone hit a gym with the best trainers in the world for years and years.

This is the NBA - using or not these guys are the best athletes in the world. Why is it that every one of them that is a great athlete has to be using?

NBA players use, and I'm sure a ton of them do, but LeBron's historic athleticism isn't an indictment. Someone's gotta be the best natural athlete, and that's LeBron (even if he does use).



And again, there's no stereotype that works. The guys busted thus far have been the lesser athletes, not the greater ones on a whole. Hell, our latest steroid user :laugh: http://deadspin.com/former-mlb-scrub-admits-steroid-use-914386565

numba1CHANGsta
07-25-2013, 06:59 PM
LeBron for sure

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 07:00 PM
Are you kidding? Obviously they are illegal in every sport but baseball prides itself on statistics. The fact that steroids distorted their statistics is part of the reason why it's such a big deal.

obvioulsy but thats not what was said in the post i responded to

UPRock
07-25-2013, 07:10 PM
LOL at the Lakers fans saying LeBron without mentioning Kobe at all.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 07:30 PM
Well in a way it is better to use roids in basketball or football then in baseball. In baseball, you only get to use this advantage of strength and added speed a very small amount of time. The three to four at bats per game and the few times the ball is hit your way. But in basketball, you get the advantage of the drug every trip down the defensive end of the floor and every time you shoot the ball. Depending who is using them that could be up to 20 times a game.

They make a much bigger deal about it in baseball because people are breaking records that old people hold so dear to the heart. So they get up in arms that players are playing better then the heroes of yesteryear. Baseball stats are generally regarded more sacred than any other sport.
Like I said, Im definitely biased so take what I say with little to no respect. The historical ramifications are definitely greater but that was never in contention, strictly the drugs ability to transform your career.
Just tell me, has there been cases of MLB players exploding out of nowhere, raising some eyebrows in the process, because thats the impression I get. I cant imagine that happening in the NBA with the simple addition of a drug.

Basketball has so much choreography to it that I find it hard to believe the drug would do more for your game than adding power to a hitters game, which in baseball, is essentially a 1 on 1 affair. Thus, you can have less at bats with a greater benefit of the drug because we aren't comparing baseball to basketball so much as you are comparing the separation the drug creates in the field.

Maybe I underrate the talent in baseball but you cannot deny it is FAR more of an individual based game, its basically a series of 1 on 1 battles with little interconnectivity. The addition of power seems far more profound to a players natural skillset than any comparison I can think of in basketball.

bullishsince87
07-25-2013, 07:31 PM
Russell westbrook

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 07:47 PM
Like I said, Im definitely biased so take what I say with little to no respect. The historical ramifications are definitely greater but that was never in contention, strictly the drugs ability to transform your career.
Just tell me, has there been cases of MLB players exploding out of nowhere, raising some eyebrows in the process, because thats the impression I get. I cant imagine that happening in the NBA with the simple addition of a drug.

Basketball has so much choreography to it that I find it hard to believe the drug would do more for your game than adding power to a hitters game, which in baseball, is essentially a 1 on 1 affair. Thus, you can have less at bats with a greater benefit of the drug because we aren't comparing baseball to basketball so much as you are comparing the separation the drug creates in the field.

Maybe I underrate the talent in baseball but you cannot deny it is FAR more of an individual based game, its basically a series of 1 on 1 battles with little interconnectivity. The addition of power seems far more profound to a players natural skillset than any comparison I can think of in basketball.

agreed. good post. also the fact that the league doesnt have a strict policy like the others shows they dont think it is that big of an issue or creates that big of an advantage

6deep
07-25-2013, 07:52 PM
You ever hear of Rashard Lewis???

suspended in beginning of '09 for use of PEDs... how has his career been post suspension?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html

Turkoglu too?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/sports/basketball/nba-roundup.html?_r=0

Lakers Ghost
07-25-2013, 07:55 PM
LOL at the Lakers fans saying LeBron without mentioning Kobe at all.

Lebron

not kobe

Lakers Ghost
07-25-2013, 07:57 PM
agreed. good post. also the fact that the league doesnt have a strict policy like the others shows they dont think it is that big of an issue or creates that big of an advantage

how big of a deal would it be if we found out that a player that had just won a championship did this.it would hurt the nba and create a big problem, i dont see the nba doing anything anytime soon.

RipCity32
07-25-2013, 07:59 PM
Don't Roids cause balding as well.

sfattahian
07-25-2013, 08:11 PM
Whistleblowers are gutsies. It takes a lot of guts to be a whistleblower. You always lose your career. You are black listed in your field. Your friends turn on you and you have to begin a new career completely from scratch.


I am glad the whistleblower stood up for what they think is right even though I disagree with the premise.

This!

jp611
07-25-2013, 08:12 PM
Lebron James and Jameer Nelson were 2 names that were linked

Lakers Ghost
07-25-2013, 08:13 PM
Don't Roids cause balding as well.

premature balding is an effect of roids.:hat-tip:

6deep
07-25-2013, 09:07 PM
Lebron James and Jameer Nelson were 2 names that were linked

Source?

Pacerlive
07-25-2013, 09:17 PM
Like I said, Im definitely biased so take what I say with little to no respect. The historical ramifications are definitely greater but that was never in contention, strictly the drugs ability to transform your career.
Just tell me, has there been cases of MLB players exploding out of nowhere, raising some eyebrows in the process, because thats the impression I get. I cant imagine that happening in the NBA with the simple addition of a drug.

Basketball has so much choreography to it that I find it hard to believe the drug would do more for your game than adding power to a hitters game, which in baseball, is essentially a 1 on 1 affair. Thus, you can have less at bats with a greater benefit of the drug because we aren't comparing baseball to basketball so much as you are comparing the separation the drug creates in the field.

Maybe I underrate the talent in baseball but you cannot deny it is FAR more of an individual based game, its basically a series of 1 on 1 battles with little interconnectivity. The addition of power seems far more profound to a players natural skillset than any comparison I can think of in basketball.
You don't have to take just roids it could also be stuff like the cyclist take to get through endurance challenges. Stuff like epo or even stuff that helps you focus.

Pacerlive
07-25-2013, 09:19 PM
Lebron

not kobe
There is a reason why Kobe went out of thee states to get his treatment for his knees.

2-ONE-5
07-25-2013, 09:27 PM
how big of a deal would it be if we found out that a player that had just won a championship did this.it would hurt the nba and create a big problem, i dont see the nba doing anything anytime soon.

the MLB jsut suspended their MVP from 2 years ago and is rumored to put a lifetime ban on one their best players of this generation

king4day
07-25-2013, 10:02 PM
In the event LeBron does get named, I wonder if the league will try to sweep it under the rug. That would devastate the growth of the NBA.

Pacerlive
07-25-2013, 10:29 PM
In the event LeBron does get named, I wonder if the league will try to sweep it under the rug. That would devastate the growth of the NBA.

Well we all know how sweeping it under the rug worked for baseball. I think the league would be fine since they can just promote another superstar like Durant.

your-mama-ugly
07-26-2013, 12:51 AM
This would suck if Lebron is named! The difference between NBA and MLB is that NBA players get to represent there country and this would tarnish USA basketball gold medals.

6deep
07-26-2013, 01:07 AM
NBA does not test for HGH. If they do test players, it is not random. They test during every training camp period. When asked why the drug testing program is not improved, the NBA responds that a drug testing program must be collectively bargained with the Union.

HuffPost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/why-has-the-nba-never-had_b_1879225.html)

Also, FWIW only one basketball player has ever failed an olympic drug test. (1972 olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games))

shep33
07-26-2013, 01:09 AM
The NBA is not going to do anything about this

JNA17
07-26-2013, 01:36 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the following players were taking PEDs:

Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis (I'm serious. Look at him right now, the guy is jacked! He was a freaking twig not even a year ago)
Amare Studemire
Carlos Boozer
Kennith Faried(I probably spelled his name wrong)
Reggie Evans
Paul George
The entire Pheonix Suns team.

JNA17
07-26-2013, 01:41 AM
In the event LeBron does get named, I wonder if the league will try to sweep it under the rug. That would devastate the growth of the NBA.

Baseball already tried that with guys like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, etc. If the NBA suddenly became serious about drug testing (don't count on it) and Lebron's name comes up, Lebron will pretty much be what A-Rod is now...be facing a life time suspension XD. And the sport will just move on to other players...only difference is now every player forever will be questioned about PEDs whenever they have a career year.

Laker Legend42
07-26-2013, 02:00 AM
I think there are more athletes doing than we will ever know. If Rashad Lewis was taking them why wouldn't bigger better players.

Tiger woods,Serena Williams,Albert puljos,Kobe Bryant,lebron James (his test tube was soaked in it before he was born) dwight Howard and koby Karl (just threw that one in) just to name a few. The nfl hasn't gone all out on testing because they may have to shut down. Roids are here to stay

sixer04fan
07-26-2013, 03:09 AM
Gilbert Arenas and Metta World come to mind as who I'd suspect

jerellh528
07-26-2013, 03:12 AM
Lebron has all the symptoms, early balding, growth of his brow plate, acne prone skin, and his muscle growth in traps and shoulders are very pronounced, I hope it's all coincidence because that would be horrid for the nba.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 03:29 AM
Lebron for sure. Wade would be next on my list of suspects.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 03:30 AM
In the event LeBron does get named, I wonder if the league will try to sweep it under the rug. That would devastate the growth of the NBA.

Of course they would. I bet Stern is working on a pay off as we speak.

ztilzer31
07-26-2013, 03:35 AM
Source?

There's a video on you tube with the interview. It's very obviously a fraud.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 03:39 AM
Lebron has all the symptoms, early balding, growth of his brow plate, acne prone skin, and his muscle growth in traps and shoulders are very pronounced, I hope it's all coincidence because that would be horrid for the nba.

What about the growth Lebron had removed from his mouth?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4226010


LeBron James was playing with a health issue through the end of the season and the playoffs, a situation that was taken care of Tuesday.

The Cleveland Cavaliers star underwent surgery at the Cleveland Clinic to remove a benign growth in his mouth, the team said. Dr. Frank Papay performed a five-hour procedure on James' parotid gland, which produces saliva. Surgery for such conditions often takes time because of the numerous nerves and blood vessels in that area of the jaw.

The Cavaliers released a statement saying doctors were "pleased with the outcome of the procedure, and at this time, are confident that no further treatment will be needed as LeBron is expected to make a full and complete recovery."

James and his family have been aware of this medical issue for several months but, with the clearance of the treating doctors and medical staff, decided to wait until the conclusion of the Cavaliers' season to undergo the procedure. Cleveland was eliminated from the NBA playoffs on Saturday by Orlando in the Eastern Conference finals.

James was recovering comfortably at the Cleveland Clinic and is expected to return home soon.

The 24-year-old James was the league MVP this season after leading the Cavs to 66 regular-season wins and their second Central Division title. He averaged 38.5 points, 8.3 assists and 8.0 rebounds in Cleveland's series against the Magic, who won in six games.

James caused a minor controversy after Game 6 for not shaking hands with Orlando's players and for skipping the postgame news conference.

And of course he was linked to a Steroid Clinic in Miami.

http://www.totalprosports.com/2013/03/04/lebron-james-link-steroid-clinic-miami-report-incarcerated-bob-video/


One of the biggest issues in the world of sports today is the rampant use of performance enhancing drugs.

Major League Baseball seems to have one steroid controversy after another. McGwire, Bonds, and A-Rod were all cheaters. Then Andy Pettite, and allegedly Roger Clemens. Then Manny Ramirez, twice, followed by a positive result for Ryan Braun (which was overturned on a technicality) and a 50-game suspension for All-Star Game MVP Melky Cabrera.

On top of those, let us not forget folks like U.S. sprinter Marion Jones, or Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson. And of course, there is also the biggest case of them all: Lance Armstrong.

Anyway, all of these cases of PED use were big deals. But none of them could hold a flame to the firestorm that would erupt if, say, LeBron James were ever caught taking steroids. I mean, just think about that for a minute. This is the guy people say is the greatest athlete of his generation, the guy some say might end up being greater than Michael Jordan. If we ever found out LeBron was doping, that would be huge.

Well, there’s one source out there on the internet who claims that he has uncovered definite evidence linking LeBron James to the infamous miami clinic run by biochemist Anthony Bosch. A guy who goes by the name of Incarcerated Bob and runs the self-titled website Incarcerated Bob’s Sports Wrap claims to have interviewed a woman who used to work for Anthony Bosch. And that woman, who we know only as Jessica, claims that payments were made to the clinic from a man she called “Mr. Paul” for somebody with the initials LJ.

Now, as you may or may not know, LeBron’s close personal friend and agent is a guy named Rich Paul. So Incarcerated Bob makes the logical inference that this Mr. Paul must be Rich Paul, and that the LJ must be LeBron James.

Obviously, if this woman did indeed work for Anthony Bosch and did indeed record the entries she said she recorded in his records, then this would indeed be very interesting evidence.

However, those are big, huge, gigantic ifs. Who is this woman? How does Incarcerated Bob know she worked for Bosch? And how does he know she’s not just mad because he didn’t pay her enough?

So, yeah, there’s absolutely no reason for people to go nuts defending or attacking LeBron at this point. However, this is still an interesting story, so I guess we’ll all have to stay tuned.

Here is an Updated Video from “Incarcerated Bob” – NBA steroids – what you need to know (LeBron’s steroid rumor addressed)

You know what they say... where there is smoke, there is fire.

Kevj77
07-26-2013, 04:23 AM
What evidence does this person actually have? That is an honest question. Is he just saying names and people are running with it?Obviously, enough evidence to get Ryan Braun suspended for 65 games by MLB.

The MLBPA didn't even fight the suspension the evidence has to be strong at least in that one case.

HowFit
07-26-2013, 04:25 AM
im sure he has names for all sports. PED's arent a problem in the NBA like they are MLB or even the NFL so I'm not sure if the NBA is going to get involved. I mean how much can PED's help a basketball player?

Seriously?

HowFit
07-26-2013, 04:27 AM
Lebron for sure. Wade would be next on my list of suspects.

So just the Heat? D Howard is someone I always suspected, hgh to say the least...

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 04:43 AM
What about the growth Lebron had removed from his mouth?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4226010





You know what they say... where there is smoke, there is fire.


HAHAHAHAHAHA

Using Incarcerated Bob as a source.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 04:56 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Using Incarcerated Bob as a source.

Either way, Lebron is the number one suspect.

All the tell tale signs are there. Plus the growth in his mouth... I mean come on.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 04:57 AM
So just the Heat? D Howard is someone I always suspected, hgh to say the least...

Howard for sure. Probably injects straight into his shoulders. Would explain the mood swings too.

amos1er
07-26-2013, 05:14 AM
Roid rage?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MVVl54XvSo

Six-8-TheWizard
07-26-2013, 05:44 AM
David West looks like hes on roids for sure

_Supreme_
07-26-2013, 05:50 AM
Oh my, amos1er is STILL here posting the same old hate-stuffs.

You are 40+ years old by now, and yet this is how you spend your days... trolling and arguing with (mostly) teenagers on an internet sports forum.

We already had this conversation back in 2006, but it is clear that the Niagara Falls of Hatorade is still flowing strong, unfortunately.

I genuinely hope that the day will come when you find actual purpose in life, and perhaps the religious people reading this message can mention amos in their prayers tonight so that the Higher Power might take him to a better place where he can have a happy mindset at last.

eso
07-26-2013, 06:05 AM
Would explain the size of most of these athletes. But seriously who cares it's sport and for our entertainment...

R. Johnson#3
07-26-2013, 06:31 AM
Mike James

Badluck33
07-26-2013, 07:10 AM
Dan Dickau

MTar786
07-26-2013, 08:40 AM
Steve Nash obviously

FYL_McVeezy
07-26-2013, 09:18 AM
Is anyone shocked?

Any we all know Stern/Silver will turn a blind eye to this....I have my suspicions on who was implicated and if I'm right it wouldn't look good to have the face of the NBA implicated on this....

I know certain posters might accuse me of trolling, but let's be honest you and me both know why we should be suspicious of that particular player.....

BklynKnicks3
07-26-2013, 09:32 AM
I dont think anyone would be confident betting there money that Lebron is clean. We will not find out about it for years just like baseball turned a blind eye during the homerun chase. I would bet he is not clean wish there was a way. I never seen a guy sprain his ankle limp 10 feet run full speed and block somebody. He is a great athlete we all know this but some things just arent human. Idc how strong u are or how good of shape u are in You sprain a ankle it should take time to heal. I seen him hurt his knee pretty bad and not even leave the game. Seems like with Lebron injuries arent 7-10 days but 7-10 seconds. Just look at his actions joining wade and bosh. Iam 100% sure he will either have another star join him n wade in miami or join another ready to win team. This guy is all about shortcuts to win. There is no proof yet u have the growth removed in his mouth a clear steroid symptom. If it ever comes u fan boys better hide

NJrockPD
07-26-2013, 09:49 AM
Lebron went down to Miami to get closer to his PEDs. No doubt in my mind Lebron is on that list. I bet his name isn't revealed until after he retires though. He means too much to the NBA for that to come out.

2-ONE-5
07-26-2013, 09:51 AM
Seriously?

ooutside of the obvious, yes im serious. but i already had this doscussion a few pages back, feel free to go back and comment on them

yoseppii12
07-26-2013, 09:53 AM
I bet 50% of the NBA does PEDS and the other 50% smokes pot.

BklynKnicks3
07-26-2013, 09:55 AM
Lebron went down to Miami to get closer to his PEDs. No doubt in my mind Lebron is on that list. I bet his name isn't revealed until after he retires though. He means too much to the NBA for that to come out.

is hair loss another steroid symptom? you have the growth in the mouth already

BklynKnicks3
07-26-2013, 09:55 AM
the pot part def Idk about 50% on peds but def 25%
I bet 50% of the NBA does PEDS and the other 50% smokes pot.

NJrockPD
07-26-2013, 09:56 AM
Oh my, amos1er is STILL here posting the same old hate-stuffs.

You are 40+ years old by now, and yet this is how you spend your days... trolling and arguing with (mostly) teenagers on an internet sports forum.

We already had this conversation back in 2006, but it is clear that the Niagara Falls of Hatorade is still flowing strong, unfortunately.

I genuinely hope that the day will come when you find actual purpose in life, and perhaps the religious people reading this message can mention amos in their prayers tonight so that the Higher Power might take him to a better place where he can have a happy mindset at last.


This seems like a valid argument to me. Don't get mad a amos1er for pointing out the obvious, get mad at yourself for being a mindless fanboy that refuses to see facts that slap you in the face.

NJrockPD
07-26-2013, 09:58 AM
I brought this up a month or two ago and my thread was closed, I'm glad it's coming out.

C_Mund
07-26-2013, 09:59 AM
I bet 50% of the NBA does PEDS and the other 50% smokes pot.

That's sandbagging.

But as much as I don't want to agree with the first half I kind of have to. Basketball isn't exclusive among pro sports.

C_Mund
07-26-2013, 10:01 AM
Dan Dickau

CAN THIS MAN BE STOPPED? Probably the reason the NBA is on 'roids is because without them, nobody will willingly step into the path of the machine that is Dan Dickau.

boboo73
07-26-2013, 10:17 AM
LeBron of course, but his name would never.come out.

If A-Rods name came out then Lebron's could (if he actually used).

boboo73
07-26-2013, 10:18 AM
is hair loss another steroid symptom? you have the growth in the mouth already

Ask Barry Bonds about hair loss.

BklynKnicks3
07-26-2013, 10:19 AM
When aroid wAS in his prime nothing came out when he started to decline it did.
if a-rods name came out then lebron's could (if he actually used).

boboo73
07-26-2013, 10:25 AM
http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/2774/20130605/lebron-james-steroids-miami-heat-star-implicated-ped-scandal-former-anthony-bosch.htm

Brew Crew
07-26-2013, 10:34 AM
Dwight Howard is number 1 on this list.

Tony_Starks
07-26-2013, 11:01 AM
Is it me or does the "whistleblower" seem kind of slimy for snitching basically out of spite? You started this whole mess over $3,600 but you turned down 125k? Really?

Nats_vcu-Okc35
07-26-2013, 11:07 AM
Hahaha, was I the only one who watched the actual TJ Quinn interview with this guy? He said he wasn't revealing the names "any time soon" because, THEY WERE NO ONE OF NOTE IN ANY OF THE OTHER SPORTS.

Chronz
07-26-2013, 11:37 AM
Hahaha, was I the only one who watched the actual TJ Quinn interview with this guy? He said he wasn't revealing the names "any time soon" because, THEY WERE NO ONE OF NOTE IN ANY OF THE OTHER SPORTS.

Interesting. .....

ztilzer31
07-26-2013, 12:20 PM
Just to let everyone know that is sourcing incarcerated bob...

There is no proof of what he's saying. His source is some girl that claims to of worked at (as Bob calls it) at "Biogenetics". She has never shown proof of the information she had. She said she saw it on a piece of paper one time....

The whole thing is a fraud. The whole interview is on you tube. It's very obviously a fraud.

Maybe LBJ does take steroids, but that source is not reliable.

ztilzer31
07-26-2013, 12:50 PM
Dammit even when I have him on my ignore list I still have to read that **** Amosier's posts sometimes...

The guys Amosier posted actually refuted what he said, and said he had no idea of LBJ was taking steroids, and when he made the video he didn't know it was going to get so many hits (if you check his youtube page) he said the only reason he doesn't take down the video is because it has so many hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBylELX8hoo

Here it is right here. Him basically saying he was just bulllshitting, and he himself thinks incarcerated Bob's source is a fraud...

I can't find the interview with her anymore, but it's somewhere out there. It is very obviously a staged telephone interview as the guy definitely leads her directly into her answers.

She comes off as full of ****.

Like I said whether Lebron is someone who took steroids or not this is not a good source to go off of as "proof".

KingPosey
07-26-2013, 01:30 PM
I dont know much about baseball but the radioheads that talk about it sure dont make it sound that way.

Ya, no ****.

PED talk drives me nuts because so many people know absolutely nothing about them, the human body, kinesiology, the human body. From PSD posters to well known radio and TV anchors, everyone looks so stupid when they comment on the subject matter.

It would be like how I would look to scientists if I sat here ******** on plane engines and rockets because I heard someone on TV say a couple things about them. I would look like a total
Uneducated dip ****.

KingPosey
07-26-2013, 01:40 PM
lol, you can put on weight, but are you seriously expecting me to believe that some guy spotting you in a gym is able to help you gain 25% of your body mass during the course of an off season? Remember, 82 games+ playoffs takes it's toll and these players need their rest to let their bodies recover as well, so it's not like it's a solid 4 months of time either. Do you really think 'world class trainers' make that much of a difference? Working out is a relatively simple concept, you put your body in a position to injure itself through high resistance, and your body responds by building muscle to minimize that risk. 'World class trainers' have more influence of tailoring those activities to best suit the game you play, not be able to magically add the muscle for you....
"Some guy spotting you In the gym..." Lol
Jesus, your whole post is uneducated. Just stop trying to discuss any topic regarding fitness/ PEDs/ nutrition. Your jaded 17 year old point of view is ridiculous, and worse its uneducated in the matter.

Chronz
07-26-2013, 01:42 PM
Ya, no ****.

PED talk drives me nuts because so many people know absolutely nothing about them, the human body, kinesiology, the human body. From PSD posters to well known radio and TV anchors, everyone looks so stupid when they comment on the subject matter.

It would be like how I would look to scientists if I sat here ******** on plane engines and rockets because I heard someone on TV say a couple things about them. I would look like a total
Uneducated dip ****.
The saddest part is, there is no expert in quantifying how these drugs influence player performance. Ive yet to see a case study, just numerous single examples (like Sosa) of guys who erupted when juicing, but nothing of fringe players barely staying on.

KingPosey
07-26-2013, 01:51 PM
I dont think anyone would be confident betting there money that Lebron is clean. We will not find out about it for years just like baseball turned a blind eye during the homerun chase. I would bet he is not clean wish there was a way. I never seen a guy sprain his ankle limp 10 feet run full speed and block somebody. He is a great athlete we all know this but some things just arent human. Idc how strong u are or how good of shape u are in You sprain a ankle it should take time to heal. I seen him hurt his knee pretty bad and not even leave the game. Seems like with Lebron injuries arent 7-10 days but 7-10 seconds. Just look at his actions joining wade and bosh. Iam 100% sure he will either have another star join him n wade in miami or join another ready to win team. This guy is all about shortcuts to win. There is no proof yet u have the growth removed in his mouth a clear steroid symptom. If it ever comes u fan boys better hidelol steroids aren't a super soldier serum. They won't heal a sprained ankle in 10 seconds.

And a mild sprain is nothing, you can play on it. Every sprain is no where near = to one another.

KingPosey
07-26-2013, 01:53 PM
The saddest part is, there is no expert in quantifying how these drugs influence player performance. Ive yet to see a case study, just numerous single examples (like Sosa) of guys who erupted when juicing, but nothing of fringe players barely staying on.

And you probably never will, people don't even realize there has never been any study done on the long term affects of steroid use. Not a single one. It's because they're afraid of the risks associated with it, but it just hasn't been done.

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 01:59 PM
The saddest part is, there is no expert in quantifying how these drugs influence player performance. Ive yet to see a case study, just numerous single examples (like Sosa) of guys who erupted when juicing, but nothing of fringe players barely staying on.

There have been case studies on Barry Bonds actually. His homerun followed any normal spike patterns for a player. His homerun record breaking year can mathematically be shown to random chance.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

And this is also great, it views the pool of steroid users and nonusers. It found that there is absolutely no difference in the stats between the two groups.

Although, the only critique is there is no control group, but I think the data speaks for itself.

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 02:01 PM
Is it me or does the "whistleblower" seem kind of slimy for snitching basically out of spite? You started this whole mess over $3,600 but you turned down 125k? Really?

Whistleblowers almost always lose their close friends in the field, their career, and are blacklisted in the field.

They will basically have to start their entire career and life over. It's a tough thing to do.

Chronz
07-26-2013, 02:12 PM
There have been case studies on Barry Bonds actually. His homerun followed any normal spike patterns for a player. His homerun record breaking year can mathematically be shown to random chance.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

And this is also great, it views the pool of steroid users and nonusers. It found that there is absolutely no difference in the stats between the two groups.

Although, the only critique is there is no control group, but I think the data speaks for itself.
Just give me the run down (cant read all that right now), how do they know when a player began juicing, which period he stopped? Could Sosa's eruption be random? Any other comparable spikes to Bonds? (I heard Bonds was great prior to the juice).

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 05:19 PM
Just give me the run down (cant read all that right now), how do they know when a player began juicing, which period he stopped? Could Sosa's eruption be random? Any other comparable spikes to Bonds? (I heard Bonds was great prior to the juice).

To my understanding their samples are every player who got caught vs every nonuser and players who haven't got caught. But this would still have a difference in the statistics if steroids did affect play.

Yes, Sammy's was random chance as well.

The explanation given to why steroids doesn't effect the stats at all is because the game is dominated by hand eyed coordination and mechanics. And steroids heavily favor upper body when developing muscles. Power is through the lower body, so the torso, hips, and legs. That means, being beefed up doesn't help you hit homeruns because it doesn't matter how big your biceps, triceps, or deltoids are. That's not a matter of phsyics, anyone who has played baseball knows it is lower body strength.

And they explained the spike in offense through out the eras is the ball is slightly different now, we don't overuse balls and they simply go farther. Quote from the article "It is absolutely essential that any analysis of batting performance take explicit cognizance of that fact. Batting stats from the period 1977 - 1992 and the period 1993 - 2007 are simply incommensurable: comparisons can only be made within those eras, not across them."

Here is the steroid era visualized: http://steroids-and-baseball.com/GRAPHICS/SteroidEra.png

It's a flat power curve.


Anyways, there is way too much to summarize. It's almost a thesis paper in length. It's a good read and gives historical perspective as well as explanations to the mathematical conclusions.

Read it when you get a chance.

2-ONE-5
07-26-2013, 05:23 PM
sre u trying to say Sosa wasnt juicing and his spike was by random chance?

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 05:26 PM
sre u trying to say Sosa wasnt juicing and his spike was by random chance?

He was juicing. And his homerun numbers were fairly consistent, so he just worked out the parts of the body that help homerun hitting. Something steroids don't do as they heavily help upperbody strength.

If you mean a spike for four years, yeah, definitely.

His four year stat period where he went insane is only one standard deviation away from his career average.

ztilzer31
07-26-2013, 06:21 PM
He was juicing. And his homerun numbers were fairly consistent, so he just worked out the parts of the body that help homerun hitting. Something steroids don't do as they heavily help upperbody strength.

If you mean a spike for four years, yeah, definitely.

His four year stat period where he went insane is only one standard deviation away from his career average.

No idea what that line means.

Steroids do 2 things.

1. Increase the amount of protein in your cells causing more muscle growth.

2. They increase your testosterone.

Steroids don't make you stronger. They make you recover quicker. Makes your muscles rebuild quicker.

You can't just take a steroid and develop a six pack without working out. However it will make it happen quicker.

Pacerlive
07-26-2013, 06:55 PM
He was juicing. And his homerun numbers were fairly consistent, so he just worked out the parts of the body that help homerun hitting. Something steroids don't do as they heavily help upperbody strength.

If you mean a spike for four years, yeah, definitely.

His four year stat period where he went insane is only one standard deviation away from his career average.

Just taking a stab at things here but doesn't that just mean pitchers were also taking it?