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Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 01:46 PM
PG
SG
SF
PF
C

Which team had the best overall collection at each position?

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 01:47 PM
Not sure if this has been done before, but I got the idea from Chronz'a sig, though I would leave Kaman out....

JerseyPalahniuk
07-25-2013, 03:19 PM
As you mentioned Lakers at the Center position, but Houston is a pretty close second with Dikembe, Otis Thorpe, Yao Ming, Elvin Hayes (dominant 4 years with them to begin his career), Ralph Sampson, Moses Malone, Hakeem and possibly Dwight.

Chacarron
07-25-2013, 03:36 PM
Are we taking into account how those players played with the team, or take their best years in their careers.

For example, at PG the Lakers have had Magic, West, Payton and Nash, but Payton and Nash were not the same players they were in their prime. How do we factor this in?

Becks2307
07-25-2013, 03:40 PM
I think you gotta go with the franchise the player is best known for

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:42 PM
Are we taking into account how those players played with the team, or take their best years in their careers.

For example, at PG the Lakers have had Magic, West, Payton and Nash, but Payton and Nash were not the same players they were in their prime. How do we factor this in?

I would think a better way to do it, is how good the players were during their tenure, meaning Payton is a Sonic

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:44 PM
As you mentioned Lakers at the Center position, but Houston is a pretty close second with Dikembe, Otis Thorpe, Yao Ming, Elvin Hayes (dominant 4 years with them to begin his career), Ralph Sampson, Moses Malone, Hakeem and possibly Dwight.

great point. While I have the Lakers in front, Houston could be awesome if Dwight is awesome. But Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, and Mikan are tough to beat.

ztilzer31
07-25-2013, 03:59 PM
I would think a better way to do it, is how good the players were during their tenure, meaning Payton is a Sonic

**** yeah! Sonics! They win for best team ever.

TrueFan420
07-25-2013, 04:39 PM
As you mentioned Lakers at the Center position, but Houston is a pretty close second with Dikembe, Otis Thorpe, Yao Ming, Elvin Hayes (dominant 4 years with them to begin his career), Ralph Sampson, Moses Malone, Hakeem and possibly Dwight.
Very good point. If Yao didnt get hurt and Dwight returns to his old non-LA form you could make a great argument that this list is better than LA.

great point. While I have the Lakers in front, Houston could be awesome if Dwight is awesome. But Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, and Mikan are tough to beat.

That is very tough to beat

Chronz
07-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Maybe limit this to the last decade, otherwise, wouldn't it just be Lakers & Celtics?

Depending on where you classify West, the Lakers have the 1st and 2nd best PG's (Magic-West) or the 2nd and 3rd best SG (Kobe-West). They arguable have the best 1-2-5. Celtics have the best SF for sure, might even include PF's.

Becks2307
07-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Yeah its actually a lot more interesting if we do it from 2000+

Jumba
07-25-2013, 05:32 PM
PG = Utah Jazz
Ricky Green (all-star), John Stockton (AST/STL leader), Deron Williams (better in Utah)

PF= Utah Jazz
Karl Malone, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Derrick Favors

/end of my homerism rant.

I Rock Shaqs
07-25-2013, 05:36 PM
IM so confused as to what I'm supposed to be talking about lol.

LIke what team in a certain year had the best starting 5 compared to other teams in that year or in history? And is it like all the players in their prime even know when they played with each other they weren't in their prime?

OceanSpray
07-25-2013, 05:40 PM
I think you have to put the team who had the most amount best players in the position.

gwrighter
07-25-2013, 05:59 PM
Lakers & Celtics, my dark horse would be Philadelphia.

Iverson
Dr. J
Barkley
Moses
Wilt

asandhu23
07-25-2013, 06:07 PM
Warriors...

Wilt, Thurmond ( played PF while Wilt was still there ), Rick Barry, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:09 PM
SG: Lakers- Kobe, West, Cooper, Eddie Jones, Byron Scott, or the Bucks- Allen, Moncreif, Marques Johnson

SF: Celtics- Bird, Pierce, Havlicek, Cedric, Sam Jones, Toine (ugh)

PG: Thunder/Sonics- Payton, Wilkens, McMillan, Westbrook or the Suns- Nash, KJ, Kidd, DJ

just some examples

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:10 PM
Warriors...

Wilt, Thurmond ( played PF while Wilt was still there ), Rick Barry, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway.

Nah, I mean by position. Where does one teams all time SG's stack up to everyone else for example?

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:11 PM
IM so confused as to what I'm supposed to be talking about lol.

LIke what team in a certain year had the best starting 5 compared to other teams in that year or in history? And is it like all the players in their prime even know when they played with each other they weren't in their prime?

I hope my post above cleared it up.

The team that had the best collection of PG's in its history. SG's, SF, PF, C....

asandhu23
07-25-2013, 06:17 PM
Nah, I mean by position. Where does one teams all time SG's stack up to everyone else for example?

ok.

Small forwards for Warriors.


Rick Barry, Chris Mullin, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Purvis Short, Andre Iguodala

ManRam
07-25-2013, 06:28 PM
PG: Lakers with Magic, West edge out the C's with Cousy, DJ, Rondo
SG: Lakers with Kobe, West, Goodrich probably edge out Sharman, Sam Jones, Ray Ray
SF: Celtics with Bird, Hondo and Pierce beat out Baylor and Worthy
PF: I think the Celtics, with McHale and KG, are the only team with 2 top 10 PFs
C: Lakers with KAJ, Shaq, Mikan, Wilt



Non-Lakers/Celtics

PG: New York? Mark Jackson and Clyde. Maybe PHX with Nash and KJ. Detroit with Chauncey and Zeke. Utah with Stockton and Deron? Lots of choices.

SG: New York had Spree, Houston, Earl. Philly with a criminally underrated Hal Greer as well as AI. MJ makes up for a lot by himself.

SF: GS had Barry and Mullin and Philly with Dr. J and Iggy...and can both claim Arizin? I think he makes them the clear choices.

PF: I don't know.

C: If we're counting TD as a center, then it's the Spurs. If not Houston maybe with Hakeem, Malone, Yao, Dwight.



Don't murder my post...that was strictly off the top of my head. I'm sure I have some MAJOR omissions.

tredigs
07-25-2013, 06:29 PM
People are doing this differently, but if I'm interpreting you right...

PG = Suns: Kevin Johnson, Steve Nash and J. Kidd. Also Charlie Scott (one of the leagues top scorers + multiple All Star) and Paul Westphal (more of a SG but I think he played point there. And he was a multiple All NBA 1st Teamer).

SG = Spurs? They've got one of the best scorers of all time (Gervin), one of the best foreigners of all time (Manu), and one of the best defenders of all time (Bowen).

SF = Celtics: Pierce/Hondo/Bird.

PF = Celtics: Two of the top 5 PFs and a number of All Star PF's.

C = Lakers: Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Mikan. Yeah, nobody's touching that.

lpdunks8
07-25-2013, 06:29 PM
SG: Lakers- Kobe, West, Cooper, Eddie Jones, Byron Scott, or the Bucks- Allen, Moncreif, Marques Johnson

SF: Celtics- Bird, Pierce, Havlicek, Cedric, Sam Jones, Toine (ugh)

PG: Thunder/Sonics- Payton, Wilkens, McMillan, Westbrook or the Suns- Nash, KJ, Kidd, DJ

just some examples

SF: Lakers- Baylor, Worthy, Wilkes, Ceballos

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:31 PM
Maybe limit this to the last decade, otherwise, wouldn't it just be Lakers & Celtics?

Depending on where you classify West, the Lakers have the 1st and 2nd best PG's (Magic-West) or the 2nd and 3rd best SG (Kobe-West). They arguable have the best 1-2-5. Celtics have the best SF for sure, might even include PF's.

I am talking about the overall collection by position. It can go much deeper than 2 players.

Denver-boy
07-25-2013, 06:31 PM
The bulls are in it too

PG-Rose/Paxson
SG- Pippen/Sloan
SF- M. Jordan/Bob Love/Deng
PF-Rodman/Grant/Boozer
C-Gilmore/ Noah

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:31 PM
SF: Lakers- Baylor, Worthy, Wilkes, Ceballos

the Celtics is better, pretty easily.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:33 PM
PG: Lakers with Magic, West edge out the C's with Cousy, DJ, Rondo
SG: Lakers with Kobe, West, Goodrich probably edge out Sharman, Sam Jones, Ray Ray
SF: Celtics with Bird, Hondo and Pierce beat out Baylor and Worthy
PF: I think the Celtics, with McHale and KG, are the only team with 2 top 10 PFs
C: Lakers with KAJ, Shaq, Mikan, Wilt



Non-Lakers/Celtics

PG: New York? Mark Jackson and Clyde. Maybe PHX with Nash and KJ. Detroit with Chauncey and Zeke. Utah with Stockton and Deron? Lots of choices.

SG: New York had Spree, Houston, Earl. Philly with a criminally underrated Hal Greer as well as AI. MJ makes up for a lot by himself.

SF: GS had Barry and Mullin and Philly with Dr. J and Iggy...and can both claim Arizin? I think he makes them the clear choices.

PF: I don't know.

C: If we're counting TD as a center, then it's the Spurs. If not Houston maybe with Kareem, Malone, Yao, Dwight.



Don't murder my post...that was strictly off the top of my head. I'm sure I have some MAJOR omissions.

the PG one is the toughest, unless you classify West at PG, which makes it very interesting. The modern Lakers have never had a great PG, the triangle doesn't need one (hence why Chicago didn't need anything but a shooter there, like the Lakers).

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:34 PM
The bulls are in it too

PG-Rose/Paxson
SG- Pippen/Sloan
SF- M. Jordan/Bob Love/Deng
PF-Rodman/Grant/Boozer
C-Gilmore/ Noah

Despite having a great SG/SF combo during their 6 titles, I can't put the Bulls in any of the positions.

tredigs
07-25-2013, 06:39 PM
SF: Lakers- Baylor, Worthy, Wilkes, Ceballos

That's a tough one. For top 10 all time SF's I'd go:
Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor, Hondo, Pippen, Durant, Nique, Pierce. Three top 10's the way I see it.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:42 PM
That's a tough one. For top 10 all time SF's I'd go:
Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor, Hondo, Pippen, Durant, Nique, Pierce. Three top 10's the way I see it.

add Cedric, Sam Jones, and Toine for depth. Imagine if Bias had played as well..

asandhu23
07-25-2013, 07:30 PM
Forgot about Jamaal Wilkes for Warriors.

Jumba
07-25-2013, 07:33 PM
ok.

Small forwards for Warriors.


Rick Barry, Chris Mullin, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Purvis Short, Andre Iguodala

If I'm not mistaken its what each player did for the time at that franchise. Iggy really doesnt count, hasnt played a minute.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 07:36 PM
ok.

Small forwards for Warriors.


Rick Barry, Chris Mullin, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Purvis Short, Andre Iguodala

does that stack up to Bird/Hondo/Pierce/Cedric/Sam Jones though?

asandhu23
07-25-2013, 07:46 PM
does that stack up to Bird/Hondo/Pierce/Cedric/Sam Jones though?

with Jamaal Wilkes in the lineup... yes.

Shouldn't Sam Jones be shooting guard? He was more a SG than SF.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 07:53 PM
with Jamaal Wilkes in the lineup... yes.

Shouldn't Sam Jones be shooting guard? He was more a SG than SF.

To be fair, Iggy wouldn't count in this scenario. He hasn't played a minute.

And the C's had arguably three of the top SF's ever. I can't see how the Warriors stack up. And trust me, I am looking for anything outside Boston/LAL here.

asandhu23
07-25-2013, 08:04 PM
To be fair, Iggy wouldn't count in this scenario. He hasn't played a minute.

And the C's had arguably three of the top SF's ever. I can't see how the Warriors stack up. And trust me, I am looking for anything outside Boston/LAL here.


fine. Substitute Wilkes for Iggy.



Lineup: Rick Barry, Chris Mullin, Jamaal Wilkes is a pretty formidable trio.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 08:09 PM
fine. Substitute Wilkes for Iggy.



Lineup: Rick Barry, Chris Mullin, Jamaal Wilkes is a pretty formidable trio.

no doubt dude. But it's not hanging with Bird/Hondo/Pierce.

I Rock Shaqs
07-25-2013, 08:25 PM
Not sure if it's when they played in their prime on the team but Houston I guess with Hakeem, Motumbo & Howard.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 08:44 PM
PG = Utah Jazz
Ricky Green (all-star), John Stockton (AST/STL leader), Deron Williams (better in Utah)

PF= Utah Jazz
Karl Malone, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Derrick Favors

/end of my homerism rant.
I actually think you have a valid point for PG. Utah has had the best pure pg of all time, and two different all stars at the position in two different eras. If you count the years Utah has had a high level pg, the ratio has to be higher than any other franchise per year.

MickeyMgl
07-25-2013, 08:45 PM
Are we taking into account how those players played with the team, or take their best years in their careers.

For example, at PG the Lakers have had Magic, West, Payton and Nash, but Payton and Nash were not the same players they were in their prime. How do we factor this in?

West at PG or West at SG? 'Cause that could be a difference maker either way. (In truth, I've always understood it that they didn't distinguish the two G's and the two F's back in the day.... so.... I don't know.)

MickeyMgl
07-25-2013, 08:49 PM
Maybe limit this to the last decade, otherwise, wouldn't it just be Lakers & Celtics?

If you limit it to just a decade, then you're basically asking who has the best individual player at each position. I think this was intended to rate each team collectively.

MickeyMgl
07-25-2013, 08:50 PM
PG = Utah Jazz
Ricky Green (all-star), John Stockton (AST/STL leader), Deron Williams (better in Utah)

PF= Utah Jazz
Karl Malone, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Derrick Favors

/end of my homerism rant.

Utah Jazz for PF is not that homery a position.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 08:54 PM
Utah Jazz for PF is not that homery a position.

What's crazy is that Utah has a strong case for pg and pf. However, if you made a list for worst centers and sg's by team, Utah would probably lead that.

MickeyMgl
07-25-2013, 08:55 PM
Garnett shouldn't be counted as a Celtic, based on what has been stated.

tredigs
07-25-2013, 09:03 PM
Garnett shouldn't be counted as a Celtic, based on what has been stated.

Why not? He was there more than half a decade while being a perennial All Star, DPOY and helped lead a contender.

TrueFan420
07-25-2013, 10:30 PM
What's crazy is that Utah has a strong case for pg and pf. However, if you made a list for worst centers and sg's by team, Utah would probably lead that.

Hahaha what the beef with greg ostertag

JerseyPalahniuk
07-25-2013, 11:19 PM
Recent pic of Dwight with the great Rockets' Centers. Definitely sig worthy.

http://i.imgur.com/edGh39G.jpg

mrblisterdundee
07-25-2013, 11:58 PM
This is difficult. If Magic Johnson had been known more asa forward, I think the Lakers would have had the best small forward lineup of all time with him, Elgin Baylor and James Worthy.

PG - Bucks (Oscar Robertson for a while, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson)
SG - Lakers (Jerry West, Kobe Bryant)
SF - Celtics (Larry Bird, John Havlicek)
PF - Celtics (Kevin McHale, Kevin Garnett)
C - Lakers (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal)

mrblisterdundee
07-26-2013, 12:04 AM
Nah, I mean by position. Where does one teams all time SG's stack up to everyone else for example?

I got what you meant, and actually placed Milwaukie as the best overall at point guard, but you probably should have put more explanation into it.

Chacarron
07-26-2013, 12:22 AM
I like the Blazers depth at the PF/C spot: Bill Walton, Mychal Thompson, Maurice Lucas, Buck Williams, Brian Grant, LaMarcus Aldridge, Zach Randolph, Arvydas Sabonis, Rasheed Wallace, Clifford Robinson.

THE GIPPER
07-26-2013, 12:26 AM
Recent pic of Dwight with the great Rockets' Centers. Definitely sig worthy.

http://i.imgur.com/edGh39G.jpg

Great pic. Yao makes the other giants look like kids.

kblo247
07-26-2013, 12:29 AM
PG: Gail Goodrich - Magic Johnson - Nick Van Exel
SG: Jerry West - Norm Nixon - Byron Scott - Eddie Jones - Kobe Bryant
SF: Elgin Baylor - Jamal Wilkes- Jmes Worthy - Michael Cooper
C: Mikan - Wilt - Kareem - Vlade - Shaq - Pau (Paus titles numbers were more at C % wise)

LO may have the case for best PF based off numbers and longevity since Paus numbers in the b2b title run were with Lamar spending most the time at the 4. Only competition is old Malone, Horry, AC, Rambis, a short year of Dennis. His averages are better than Mikkelsons for the Lakers.

Lakers probably take SG and C all time. I can probably say Boston gets the F spots. PG is difficult for me, heck thenSuns have been blessed with Kidd, KJ, and Nash before for instance

Denver-boy
07-26-2013, 06:04 AM
Despite having a great SG/SF combo during their 6 titles, I can't put the Bulls in any of the positions.

Bulls are better than the Celtics. dont kid yourself. no one could guard Jordan.

As far as the best position team, Lakers hands down win this. but If I had to chose a ALL TIME team, Id take Bulls 10 times outta ten, Id know ALL TIME bulls could smash the lakers.

kblo247
07-26-2013, 07:32 AM
Bulls are better than the Celtics. dont kid yourself. no one could guard Jordan.

As far as the best position team, Lakers hands down win this. but If I had to chose a ALL TIME team, Id take Bulls 10 times outta ten, Id know ALL TIME bulls could smash the lakers.

Smash? Really!

Magic, West, Kobe, Godrich, Worthy, Mikan, Elgin, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt

That 10 some would Rolf stomp the damn league with Phil as the coach, and make no mistake he's the winningest laker coach ever so he's the coach.

We haven't even touched in on Pau, Odom, Cooper, Scott, Vlade, Green, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Van Exel (he shut down the Boston garden), Jones, Nixon, Wilkes, McAdoo.

Jordan is great, but Pippen is your second best guy ever and and its a ****ing cliff between most the Lakers and Pippen with everyone in their best day ... A ****ing universal size cliff

knicksfan42
07-26-2013, 07:48 AM
PG-Suns

Kevin Johnson

Jason Kidd

Steve Nash

Its like they just moved from great point guard to great point guard.

kblo247
07-26-2013, 08:21 AM
PG-Suns

Kevin Johnson

Jason Kidd

Steve Nash

Its like they just moved from great point guard to great point guard.

To think penny was there too and Marbury was no slouch

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 12:43 PM
Nah, I mean by position. Where does one teams all time SG's stack up to everyone else for example?

Hey Hawkeye,
Suggestion: Why don't you include this informtion / explanation into your OP; because otherwise, as has already been shown in the posts so far, instead of one understanding there are unlimited ones - yikes!

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 12:49 PM
Smash? Really!

Magic, West, Kobe, Godrich, Worthy, Mikan, Elgin, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt

That 10 some would Rolf stomp the damn league with Phil as the coach, and make no mistake he's the winningest laker coach ever so he's the coach.

We haven't even touched in on Pau, Odom, Cooper, Scott, Vlade, Green, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Van Exel (he shut down the Boston garden), Jones, Nixon, Wilkes, McAdoo.

Jordan is great, but Pippen is your second best guy ever and and its a ****ing cliff between most the Lakers and Pippen with everyone in their best day ... A ****ing universal size cliff

Yeah, Then if you go beyond Jordan, Pippen and Rodman/Grant you have an even hugh-er cliff.
THE only serious NBA-Historical-Franchise competition would have to be Lakers-Celtics: and THAT would be interesting. But isn't this more than a wee bit off-topic for this OP?

Even if for both the Lakers and the Celtics, you'd get to use only players who played the majority of their careers with THAT team (so for example, this eliminates Wilt from the Lakers); those two 12-man teams would DWARF any other team's Top 12.

Perhaps, a better competition would be a 3-Team round robin with these 3 "Teams":
All-Time Lakers;
All-Time Celtics;
All-Time Everybody Else.

DISCUSS (but in another thread?)

LoveMeOrHateMe
07-26-2013, 12:59 PM
PG-Lakers
Sg-Lakers Kobe,west, jones
Sf-? Lakers? Worthy Baylor
C- lakers rather easily Kareem Wilt Shaq Mikan

kblo247
07-26-2013, 01:45 PM
To me it always comes to what you call Gail and Jerry. If you label west the pg, Lakers win. If you label him the sg Lakers lose the pg debate, but still win sg easily.

I call West the SG just because Goodrich while working for nba tv said they always agreed Gail was the pg, just off the ball but he defended them and West was the sg in the vein of Fosher and Kobe. I figure no one knows better than those two what they were, but it can be argued they were just Gs

mrblisterdundee
07-26-2013, 02:53 PM
PG-Suns

Kevin Johnson

Jason Kidd

Steve Nash

Its like they just moved from great point guard to great point guard.

I forgot about Kidd. I put the Bucks the best at point guard, because they had something like three of the top 15 all-time that played there.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 03:12 PM
Bulls are better than the Celtics. dont kid yourself. no one could guard Jordan.

As far as the best position team, Lakers hands down win this. but If I had to chose a ALL TIME team, Id take Bulls 10 times outta ten, Id know ALL TIME bulls could smash the lakers.

that isn't what the thread is about though. At all.

TheMightyHumph
07-26-2013, 04:04 PM
Always liked the Nets trio of SFs.

Barry, Erving, Bernard King

Jumba
07-26-2013, 04:13 PM
I actually think you have a valid point for PG. Utah has had the best pure pg of all time, and two different all stars at the position in two different eras. If you count the years Utah has had a high level pg, the ratio has to be higher than any other franchise per year.

Sadly Lo, it appears our PG argument has been tossed over to argue the Lakers being the greatest team in every position.

I thought the thread was to talk about what teams were the best at which position, and it appears Laker fans have taken that and said, the Lakers are good at every position. :facepalm:

bagwell368
07-26-2013, 04:31 PM
In the "olden" days there were forwards, guards, and centers.

The Celtics own the forward position:

Bird*
Garnett+
McHale*
Havlicek*
Pierce+
Howell*
Nelson
Heinsohn*
Maxwell

All arguably in the top 95 all time per peak. 5 HOF'ers, 2 more to be (+), 2 other Celt retired numbers

In addition:

Paul Silas - short but excellent career for Celts - key in '73 title, nearly as key in '76.

Note: If the Celts had a real Center in the 70's Cowens would have went down as a 7th-12th best PF of all time as well.

JWorthy42
07-26-2013, 04:38 PM
Great thread idea.

SG - Kobe, West, Scott, Cooper, Eddie Jones, etc.

C - Shaq, Kareem, Dwight, Wilt, Mikan...

I feel like the Lakers are pretty weak at the PF position honestly. I mean who do we have that was a true PF? Pau, AC Green, LO, Worthy played SOME PF at times...

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 05:54 PM
PG: Lakers with Magic, West edge out the C's with Cousy, DJ, Rondo
SG: Lakers with Kobe, West, Goodrich probably edge out Sharman, Sam Jones, Ray Ray
SF: Celtics with Bird, Hondo and Pierce beat out Baylor and Worthy
PF: I think the Celtics, with McHale and KG, are the only team with 2 top 10 PFs
C: Lakers with KAJ, Shaq, Mikan, Wilt



Non-Lakers/Celtics

PG: New York? Mark Jackson and Clyde. Maybe PHX with Nash and KJ. Detroit with Chauncey and Zeke. Utah with Stockton and Deron? Lots of choices.

SG: New York had Spree, Houston, Earl. Philly with a criminally underrated Hal Greer as well as AI. MJ makes up for a lot by himself.

SF: GS had Barry and Mullin and Philly with Dr. J and Iggy...and can both claim Arizin? I think he makes them the clear choices.

PF: I don't know.

C: If we're counting TD as a center, then it's the Spurs. If not Houston maybe with Hakeem, Malone, Yao, Dwight.



Don't murder my post...that was strictly off the top of my head. I'm sure I have some MAJOR omissions.

ManRan,
imo This is the best post I've seen you post. (Ain't saying it's perfect; but pretty damn good).
P.S. You've had some posts that tempted me to put you on "invisible" (or whatever the correct term is) but you more than made up for them with this one (hehe). I enjoy laughing at myself so please take that last sentence as me making fun of me criticize you from "on high" as if I were way better / more knowledgeable than you.
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 05:59 PM
This is difficult. If Magic Johnson had been known more asa forward, I think the Lakers would have had the best small forward lineup of all time with him, Elgin Baylor and James Worthy.

PG - Bucks (Oscar Robertson for a while, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson)
SG - Lakers (Jerry West, Kobe Bryant)
SF - Celtics (Larry Bird, John Havlicek)
PF - Celtics (Kevin McHale, Kevin Garnett)
C - Lakers (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal)

Pretty reasonable; but I don't think the Big "O" should be included in Milwaukee for two reasons:
First, he was way better with the Royals;
Second, he spent much more of his career there.

Generally, I think a good guide-line for this thread would be:
Each player only gets listed for one team, the team where he played his best/longest;
Exceptions?: The very, very few cases where the guy played several years in two places AND was great in both.
But, I'm not the OP-guy. What do you-all think, especially Hawk?

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 06:13 PM
In the "olden" days there were forwards, guards, and centers.

The Celtics own the forward position:

Bird*
Garnett+
McHale*
Havlicek*
Pierce+
Howell*
Nelson
Heinsohn*
Maxwell

All arguably in the top 95 all time per peak. 5 HOF'ers, 2 more to be (+), 2 other Celt retired numbers

In addition:

Paul Silas - short but excellent career for Celts - key in '73 title, nearly as key in '76.

Note: If the Celts had a real Center in the 70's Cowens would have went down as a 7th-12th best PF of all time as well.

I agree. If there's one position that one single team has most "dominated" it's Forward for the Celtics. The first five you mention is enough to seal-the-deal; Bird, KG, McHale, Hondo and Pierce.

I tend to think that the Celtics still win with just the PF: Starting with KG and McHale.
Virtually everyone here knows how damn good KG has been; and respects him for it.
Many many NOT know just how McHale was. imho, he was the most UNIQUE player ever. He just didn't look "right" to be so good. His shoulders were "too" wide; while relatively skinny (including his upper chest). He did NOT have major "ups". But he was plenty good at defense; and he had a truly unique set of moves. Somehow, despite looking even more un-athletic and co-ordinated than Bird; he was UNSTOPPABLE. Literally, no one could stop him. I saw a high-percentage of all his games; and every single game I'd be telling myself that his game was not that remarkable and FINALLY the other team would figure him out and shut him down. But it never happened. For example: his up and under move was: automatic, super-simple yet no one ever forced him away from his regular use of it. But most of all, it was his almost-unlimited array of moves - he had so many, and went to them in so seemingly a random order; he befuddled opponents.

P.S. I didn't want to like him (especially after he clothes-lined Rambis); but I had to respect him.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 06:38 PM
Great thread idea.

SG - Kobe, West, Scott, Cooper, Eddie Jones, etc.

C - Shaq, Kareem, Dwight, Wilt, Mikan...

I feel like the Lakers are pretty weak at the PF position honestly. I mean who do we have that was a true PF? Pau, AC Green, LO, Worthy played SOME PF at times...

I agree with your analysis of these two positions:
SG Besides the Lakers, what other team has had 2 All-Time Greats?
C The Lakers are well-known for having gotten the greatest centers repeatedly. Don't include Dwight ONLY because one year is not enough, period (regardless of anyone's opinion of the quality of his play that one year). But Mikan (in his epoch, he was light-years the best player in the league, much less at Center. KAJ - a good 18 years as THE best center in (both) Leagues (including the 9-years of the ABA). Even if you disagree with this, he was certainly Top 3 for 18 years - no one in history can beat that (that Kobe may eventually). Shaq - who has ever had a better peak? Wilt (I'm not sure he should be included with the Lakers: did he play "enough" years there?)

PF - Lakers don't come close to KG + McHale (so the rest don't even come "into play"). Pau's a center. AC Green's biggest distinction was his longetivity (on the court; I have no idea, nor wanna know, about otherwise); i.e., his consequetive games playes streak. Lamar Odom didn't play enough great years to alter the over-all comparison. Worth WAS overwhelming a small forward. Basically, at PF, the Lakers got NADA, nothing.

kblo247
07-26-2013, 06:53 PM
I agree the lakers lack at PF. They basically have Mikkelson and Odom who were 14/9-15/10 guys. Its never been the strong position of the team. They shouldn't be in that debate.

I would always add Pau to the C list as he is a HOF lock, who played mostly C when winning rings and will finish his career as a C there.

Now the whole outside LA, who has had two great SGs? That's kinda hard I mean Orlando had two nice guys as number 1 in Penny and Tracy but they don't measure up, same with Tracy and Clyde. Sixers just have Iverson, same with Spurs and Manu, Bulls with MJ. Its weird really because most teams I think of have only had one great SG, while lakers had two wi Kobe and whoever you want to slice it with Goodrich/West, that and the non HOF ones like Scott, Jones, Nixon were good.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 06:56 PM
Utah Jazz for PF is not that homery a position.

Utah has got to be near the top of the PF list. Karl Malone by himself assures this. What more could he have done individually? If the NBA was like other major professional US leagues, he'd have been a multiple winner of the MVP and the Scoring race for the Western "League" (read Conference). Boozer's been no slouch either.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 07:12 PM
Let's say that the NBA has about 66 years of history 46-47 to 2012-13. (Close enough for our purposes here).
Boston has 17 Chips,
L.A. has 16 Chips (It's my own personal gripe that the NBA has all the power but no right to negate the Mikan-Laker Championship in the NBL. The NBL WAS definitely better than the pre-NBA, BAA, was; smaller cities but better players.) But for this discussion, let's leave it at 16
So Celtics + Lakers =33. Everybody else = 33
So, no wonder that the All-Time Lakers' "Team" and the All-Time Celtics' "Team" dominate.
I thought I had posted this suggestion earlier; but just in case I screwed up; or in the changing of the thread title it got lost: Maybe we should ALSO compare these 3 "Teams"
All-Time Lakers
All-Time Celtics
All-Time NBA (minus Lakers and Celtics)
still by position.

P.S. The Lakers and Celtics also pre-dominate in the regular season; gobbling up much more than their "fair share" of the total wins of the entire league. But that's off-topic for this OP.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 07:23 PM
I agree the lakers lack at PF. They basically have Mikkelson and Odom who were 14/9-15/10 guys. Its never been the strong position of the team. They shouldn't be in that debate.

I would always add Pau to the C list as he is a HOF lock, who played mostly C when winning rings and will finish his career as a C there.

Now the whole outside LA, who has had two great SGs? That's kinda hard I mean Orlando had two nice guys as number 1 in Penny and Tracy but they don't measure up, same with Tracy and Clyde. Sixers just have Iverson, same with Spurs and Manu, Bulls with MJ. Its weird really because most teams I think of have only had one great SG, while lakers had two wi Kobe and whoever you want to slice it with Goodrich/West, that and the non HOF ones like Scott, Jones, Nixon were good.

Boy how I wish my dad was still around. He watched every single televised game there was (way too few; but it was what it was). Any non-TV game he caught on radio if available. If not, he tracked down any and all newspaper stories (we lived just outside N.Y.City (so there was a plethora of newspapers, radio stations, and more TV stations (few as there were) than anywhere else back then). He constantly reveled in teaching me about Mikan. But he also used to fill my head with fine stories about the play of Mikkelson. He was NO slouch. That was far from a one-man team. Unfortunately I remember ZERO details that he told me about Vern. Sorry, I was too young; and it was too long ago.

Too bad he didn't tape-record his thoughts/opinions. He really knew his NBL/NBA stuff - we'd have opinions and description that are quite rare. And he wasn't a homer (he worked in N.J. and then N.Y.City) but his love was of the best players NOT of any particular team, including the Knickerbockers (though he definitely did like them).

Chronz
07-26-2013, 07:27 PM
I am talking about the overall collection by position. It can go much deeper than 2 players.

I know, I just dont see any overall collection surpassing that collection from the onset.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 08:22 PM
In the "olden" days there were forwards, guards, and centers.

The Celtics own the forward position:

Bird*
Garnett+
McHale*
Havlicek*
Pierce+
Howell*
Nelson
Heinsohn*
Maxwell

All arguably in the top 95 all time per peak. 5 HOF'ers, 2 more to be (+), 2 other Celt retired numbers

In addition:

Paul Silas - short but excellent career for Celts - key in '73 title, nearly as key in '76.

Note: If the Celts had a real Center in the 70's Cowens would have went down as a 7th-12th best PF of all time as well.

Yeah, Cowens - that's a whole nother discussion. The dude was "tiny" for a center; but played BIG. Great point; he should have been a forward; but they didn't have a better center; so center he was forced to be; at the time my nickname for him was "courageous"; he battled with guys WAY bigger than him and never ever backed down (Rodman before Rodman). In a way like Bosh is today; sure Bosh is tall enough; but way too slender; his position is clearly forward NOT center.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 10:01 PM
I like the Blazers depth at the PF/C spot: Bill Walton, Mychal Thompson, Maurice Lucas, Buck Williams, Brian Grant, LaMarcus Aldridge, Zach Randolph, Arvydas Sabonis, Rasheed Wallace, Clifford Robinson.

Hey Chacarron,
Nice. 10 MoFo's between PF/C.
btw How many complete years did Mountain Man / Big Red Walton play at Portland - iirc he couldn't have had more than 2. ???

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 01:04 AM
To me it always comes to what you call Gail and Jerry. If you label west the pg, Lakers win. If you label him the sg Lakers lose the pg debate, but still win sg easily.

I call West the SG just because Goodrich while working for nba tv said they always agreed Gail was the pg, just off the ball but he defended them and West was the sg in the vein of Fosher and Kobe. I figure no one knows better than those two what they were, but it can be argued they were just Gs

Cool, straight from the PG's (horse's) mouth. Thanx for that.

bagwell368
07-27-2013, 07:23 AM
Yeah, Cowens - that's a whole nother discussion. The dude was "tiny" for a center; but played BIG. Great point; he should have been a forward; but they didn't have a better center; so center he was forced to be; at the time my nickname for him was "courageous"; he battled with guys WAY bigger than him and never ever backed down (Rodman before Rodman). In a way like Bosh is today; sure Bosh is tall enough; but way too slender; his position is clearly forward NOT center.

From the start of Cowens first season until Bird he was my favorite Celt, and certainly an inspiration for me as an undersized C/PF in HS and college.

MickeyMgl
07-27-2013, 12:21 PM
Why not? He was there more than half a decade while being a perennial All Star, DPOY and helped lead a contender.

His best seasons were with Minnesota.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 03:16 PM
From the start of Cowens first season until Bird he was my favorite Celt, and certainly an inspiration for me as an undersized C/PF in HS and college.

bagwell, you certainly know your Celts. Can you explain what you think were the reasons why Cowens was so good despite being so small (beyond my simply pointing to his obvious smarts and guts)?

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 03:18 PM
I think, if any player(s) are "allowed" to be included in more than one team, KG would be for both the T-Wolves and the Celtics (imo he played enough top-quality years in both places). KAJ would certainly be another for both the Bucks and the Lakers. Others?

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 03:33 PM
Bulls are better than the Celtics. dont kid yourself. no one could guard Jordan.

As far as the best position team, Lakers hands down win this. but If I had to chose a ALL TIME team, Id take Bulls 10 times outta ten, Id know ALL TIME bulls could smash the lakers.

Hey Denver-boy,
The OP is NOT about any franchise's individual year; but how can you make the claim that the "Bulls are better than the Celtics ..."; when, even when he was in the beginning of perhaps the greatest peak-period of all-time, MJ could not get past the Celtics in the Play-Offs, despite being "God on the basketball court" - Larry Bird), scoring 63 points including overtime YET STILL LOSING the game and the series???

That Celtic team (that year) was one of the all-time greats.

Then you say, "As far as the best position team, Lakers hands down win this. but If I had to chose a ALL TIME team, Id take Bulls 10 times outta ten, Id know ALL TIME bulls could smash the lakers."

I'm not sure to what you are referring to:
A) a specific-year's Bulls team vs a specific-year's Lakers team? or
B) A theoretical All-Time Bulls Franchise Team vs its Lakers' (or Celtics') counterpart.

IF you mean a one-year team; maybe the Bulls win a 7-Game Series; BUT NOT 10 out of 10. YIKES !!!
(Afterall, against far-weaker teams, then didn't win a single Finals 4-0).

IF you are referring to a collection of each team's all-time best players; NO WAY do the Bulls win that! Instead, most likely, they get beaten in a 7-Game Series: 4-0 !!! (Sorry, but it is what it is).

Who would the Bulls have?
SG: Grant the Bulls win at SG: MJ
SF: Assume the Bulls win (or at least hold their own) at SF: Pippen;
but at the other 3 positions they would get slaughtered, no???
C: Boerwinkle, Longley, Cartwright, Perdue ??? VS Russell & Parrish OR VS KAJ, etc.
PG: (pick who ever you want) VS Magic & Goodrich & ... OR Cousy & ...
PF: (pick who ever you want) VS Kobe & West & ... OR McHale & KG & ...

I know I'm probably missing some important names; this IS just off the top of my head.

Remember, if MJ at his best (or near-best) could NOT beat the Celtics that one year in the play-offs; there's just NO WAY he (& the Bulls Franchise) beat the All-Time Celtics Franchise or the All-Time Lakers Franchise. NO WAY.

The ONLY people who are gonna be on your side in this "debate" are fellow Jordan-is-God homers. And, btw, are you (and they) going to be stuck holding onto that credo for the rest of your lives; even if someone eventually comes along who is clearly better career-wise than MJ? Do you really want to trap yourself into that hole?

abe_froman
07-27-2013, 03:45 PM
Despite having a great SG/SF combo during their 6 titles, I can't put the Bulls in any of the positions.
while not best,you could argue they'd be behind the celtics at sf(walker,pippen,artest,deng,kukoc,woolridge) and top 3-5 at sg

pg-suns easily,runner ups-sonics/thunder,c's,utah
sg-lakers
sf-c's
pf-suns(connie hawkins,barkley,amare)
c-lakers,with w's,76ers,c's,rockets not far behind

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 05:43 PM
while not best,you could argue they'd be behind the celtics at sf(walker,pippen,artest,deng,kukoc,woolridge) and top 3-5 at sg

pg-suns easily,runner ups-sonics/thunder,c's,utah
sg-lakers
sf-c's
pf-suns(connie hawkins,barkley,amare)
c-lakers,with w's,76ers,c's,rockets not far behind

Hey abe_froman,
pg: the Lakers had Magic (THE best NBA point guard for 10+ years); Slater Martin (best? in the beginning); just Magic (plus Slater) alone seem to me to get them ahead of almost everybody. I also think that John Stockton was phenomenal (his two individual stats: assists (on offense) and steals (on defense) may last forever). So I think Utah beats out the Sonics/Thunder (let's give Westbrook a few more years to help change our minds, no?)
So, overall, I'm not even sure I'd put the Suns as first. Is this the most-tightly contested of the 5 positions?

"pf-suns" iirc None of your 3 played enough great years at Phoenix (the Hawk got cheated out of some years, Barkley was way better and longer with the 76ers; Amare - I'd have to look it up). But even if they are thought to have played enough great years, I could never take them over the C's: McHale and KG.

"c" - imo the Lakers are WAY better (even not counting Wilt's years there): just these 3: Mikan, KAJ, Pau are way better imo than the others you mention (so I wouldn't use "not far behind")

abe_froman
07-27-2013, 06:18 PM
Hey abe_froman,
pg: the Lakers had Magic (THE best NBA point guard for 10+ years); Slater Martin (best? in the beginning); just Magic (plus Slater) alone seem to me to get them ahead of almost everybody. I also think that John Stockton was phenomenal (his two individual stats: assists (on offense) and steals (on defense) may last forever). So I think Utah beats out the Sonics/Thunder (let's give Westbrook a few more years to help change our minds, no?)
So, overall, I'm not even sure I'd put the Suns as first. Is this the most-tightly contested of the 5 positions?

"pf-suns" iirc None of your 3 played enough great years at Phoenix (the Hawk got cheated out of some years, Barkley was way better and longer with the 76ers; Amare - I'd have to look it up). But even if they are thought to have played enough great years, I could never take them over the C's: McHale and KG.

"c" - imo the Lakers are WAY better (even not counting Wilt's years there): just these 3: Mikan, KAJ, Pau are way better imo than the others you mention (so I wouldn't use "not far behind")
no it doesnt,magic is the best pg but you reaching with martin,who only played a couple years in the shot clock era(and no,martin wasnt best of his era, cousey was).def not better than the suns(nash,kidd,kj,marbury,westphal,ect.).no the most tightly,it takes more than one great to claim the position(or else bulls would own sg)...and contested spot is center,which i'll get to later

for pf-you knock the suns for getting barkley and hawkins after their prime,but hey were still very good,and you mention kg for the c's,who was past his prime with a more significant drop off than those guys had.

c-1.pau played pf with the lakers 2.your underrating the other teams wilt(in his prime),ray,parish,thurmond (just for the w's),rockets with moses,hakeem,yao,(dwight),i can go on.there have been way to many great centers for anyone in this category to be by far the best.its the deepest/most contested category with how centers ruled the league until the post mj era.nobody can own this by far

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 06:46 PM
no it doesnt,magic is the best pg but you reaching with martin,who only played a couple years in the shot clock era(and no,martin wasnt best of his era, cousey was).def not better than the suns(nash,kidd,kj,marbury,westphal,ect.).no the most tightly,it takes more than one great to claim the position(or else bulls would own sg)...and contested spot is center,which i'll get to later

for pf-you knock the suns for getting barkley and hawkins after their prime,but hey were still very good,and you mention kg for the c's,who was past his prime with a more significant drop off than those guys had.

c-1.pau played pf with the lakers 2.your underrating the other teams wilt(in his prime),ray,parish,thurmond (just for the w's),rockets with moses,hakeem,yao,(dwight),i can go on.there have been way to many great centers for anyone in this category to be by far the best.its the deepest/most contested category with how centers ruled the league until the post mj era.nobody can own this by far

PG: I KNOW Cousy was the best PG once he started playing *. I don't feel strongly-enough based to argue further about this position. I do think it's more tightly contested than Center (we could agree to disagree, no?)

PF: I do NOT knock the Suns for anything including getting Barkley and Hawking after their prime. I ONLY question (and not definitively answer myself) whether they played enough great years at Phoenix. I guess I should research further before pursuing this further. I certainly DO acknowledge that both were very, very good while with the Suns. My point about KG is specifically that he DID imo play enough great years at both Boston and Minnesota to "qualify" in this thread for both Franchises' All-Time Teams.

C. Paul's natural position is Center, no? He may have been shifted over due to Bynum's presence; but this was, imo, clearly not most of the time; because, among other things Bynum spent a lot of time off the floor injured. We could agree to disagree about the degree to which the Laker Centers (and I guess Wilt should be included to some extent, he played a few years there; and, to the end, he was way better than average) were superior to the W's and Rockets.

Overall, I'd bet our positions are much closer together than are the positions of most posters on here; so we ought to be "tender" (right word?) with each other's thoughts. I think our differences on PG and C, for instance, are quite small.

I admire both your knowledge and your tenacity in defending what you believe.

* Upon further research, I realized that Slater Martin did NOT start playing prior to Bob Cousy.

bagwell368
07-27-2013, 09:42 PM
bagwell, you certainly know your Celts. Can you explain what you think were the reasons why Cowens was so good despite being so small (beyond my simply pointing to his obvious smarts and guts)?

He was ferocious - something like KG, but, he always stood up for himself. He dove on the ground and fought guards for loose balls. He muscled everybody bigger than him, even guys with more muscles. He was fierce on every play in every game. His intensity was constant.

Here is a story for you. There was a TV program that granted people a wish if they won some drawing. Well a guy won and wanted to play Cowens 1 on 1. They had a hard time getting him to do it, but finally it came off. Well, Cowens played him like he was in an NBA game. Roughed him up, blocked his shots, stole the ball, dunked on him. The guy didn't get a basket. Most people would consider letting the guy have a few just to make him feel good - not Cowens.

But, Cowens burnt out physically young - he lost his jumping ability due to a collection of sprained ankles. I don't think he took great care of himself either - common in that time. At age 28 in 1976-77 he was headed into decline.

But then he burnt out mentally. He took a leave of absence in 1977 (the famous one night driving a cab). They had a title team in '75-'76, and here was Cowens letting the air out of the tire, causing Heinsohn to get fired and the team to spiral into the brutal late 70's teams of Wicks, Rowe, etc. - and leading to Bird, McHale, and Parish shortly after.

Cowens wasn't the same after his first six years. Retired for the first time at age 32. Played again for one year for the Bucks, but it wasn't him.

Cowens wasn't a quitter. He was a guy that had to play 100% at all times, and when his body and then his mind/will faltered, he was done.

Cowens, Havlickek, White, and Silas won two titles, the least respected and least remembered of the Celtic dynasties. I'll never forget them.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 10:35 PM
He was ferocious - something like KG, but, he always stood up for himself. He dove on the ground and fought guards for loose balls. He muscled everybody bigger than him, even guys with more muscles. He was fierce on every play in every game. His intensity was constant.

Here is a story for you. There was a TV program that granted people a wish if they won some drawing. Well a guy won and wanted to play Cowens 1 on 1. They had a hard time getting him to do it, but finally it came off. Well, Cowens played him like he was in an NBA game. Roughed him up, blocked his shots, stole the ball, dunked on him. The guy didn't get a basket. Most people would consider letting the guy have a few just to make him feel good - not Cowens.

But, Cowens burnt out physically young - he lost his jumping ability due to a collection of sprained ankles. I don't think he took great care of himself either - common in that time. At age 28 in 1976-77 he was headed into decline.

But then he burnt out mentally. He took a leave of absence in 1977 (the famous one night driving a cab). They had a title team in '75-'76, and here was Cowens letting the air out of the tire, causing Heinsohn to get fired and the team to spiral into the brutal late 70's teams of Wicks, Rowe, etc. - and leading to Bird, McHale, and Parish shortly after.

Cowens wasn't the same after his first six years. Retired for the first time at age 32. Played again for one year for the Bucks, but it wasn't him.

Cowens wasn't a quitter. He was a guy that had to play 100% at all times, and when his body and then his mind/will faltered, he was done.

Cowens, Havlickek, White, and Silas won two titles, the least respected and least remembered of the Celtic dynasties. I'll never forget them.

Beautiful "report". You remember him better than I do; but that is exactly how I remember him: didn't give an inch, just ferocious; class act. Just didn't last long enough (comes with playing tough every night, year after year, against guys way bigger than you.

We all know to whom to go for "All-Things Celtics".

bagwell368
07-28-2013, 06:26 AM
Beautiful "report". You remember him better than I do; but that is exactly how I remember him: didn't give an inch, just ferocious; class act. Just didn't last long enough (comes with playing tough every night, year after year, against guys way bigger than you.

We all know to whom to go for "All-Things Celtics".

Thanks.

I dunno, there are some people on the Celts board that would disagree since I never loved PP, and think Rondo is a dog, etc.... then again I've got Bill Russell, Cowens, Havlicek, Silas, Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, and KG to stack up against them.

Pablonovi
07-28-2013, 01:27 PM
Thanks.

I dunno, there are some people on the Celts board that would disagree since I never loved PP, and think Rondo is a dog, etc.... then again I've got Bill Russell, Cowens, Havlicek, Silas, Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, and KG to stack up against them.

Giggling I reply: After what I'm about to say, those "Celts board-ers" are gonna be accusing me of being your dupe. hehe

I admit, I never loved PP. I've got my reasons; but those reasons are not dear enough to me to even mention them; much less defend them strongly. BUT, I DO respect the f___ out of his longetivity at very good quality.

My opinion about Rondo is that he IS a dog, a team-chemistry wrecker. And IMO, there is no greater sin for an NBA player to commit on-court, than to wreck his own team's chemistry. BUT I also believe, WITH EXACTLY THE RIGHT COACH, with the strictest rules ever for one player's on-court behavior (i.e., every single time he might deviate from his-personal plan; he'd get pulled, until he'd finally get it); he could be a great PG.


About who you got "stacked up against them"; all I can do is ... bow down before those 9 Monsters.
A theoretical "Bulls All-Time Franchise Team" would lose a 7-Game Finals Series to those 9 guys (plus 3-6 "bums off the street") 4-0 all of them blow-outs. MJ would have to score 60 a game to even get close to them; and with their defense, even MJ don't get no 60 in even one game.

Likewise, a theoretical "Lakers all-Time Franchise Team" might need all 7 Games, and win the 7th in overtime to beat those 9 guys. Probably break the all-time 7-Game record for fewest points scored with THAT DEFENSE!

N.B. Not to mention a certain Mountain-Man Red-Head who played (at least) one fine year with them. I remember that whenever he subbed in for Parrish; there was ZERO decline in play; maybe even an improvement. And Parrish was NO slouch; he was a top-5 center "forever" (well at least for a lot of years).

FINAL THOUGHT: I have never visited the Celtics Board (or any other PSD board except the main NBA one; and the Lakers one); so I am in ZERO position to say anything about any of its other "inhabitants". ZERO.

Pablonovi
07-29-2013, 09:58 AM
PG
SG
SF
PF
C

Which team had the best overall collection at each position?

Hey Hawk,
A Suggestion with an alternative:
Why not re-do your OP so it includes either
1) Your top 3 teams (all-time) for each position; OR (better in imo)
2) This Threads proposed/running nominees for top 3 teams (all-time) for each position.

This has the advantage because it would be a summation of the thoughts expressed and spur more and probably better /more focused continuing discussion, no?
Thanx a lot for this thread,
Pablo

MickeyMgl
07-30-2013, 11:13 AM
If KG is a Celtic, then Bob McAdoo and Mychal Thompson are Lakers.

Chronz
07-30-2013, 01:16 PM
If KG is a Celtic, then Bob McAdoo and Mychal Thompson are Lakers.

Nothings stopping you, but they are well beneath KG anyways so its not like it changes this thread. So yea, pretty pointless.

IKnowHoops
07-30-2013, 02:42 PM
I don't need to even think about this one. LAKERS easily

bagwell368
07-30-2013, 10:22 PM
If KG is a Celtic, then Bob McAdoo and Mychal Thompson are Lakers.

KG's play for the Celts in year 1 in particular was much closer to his Minny peak than McAdoo was between Buffalo and LAL, and it's not close.

rhino17
07-31-2013, 12:58 AM
The rockets are a lot closer to the lakers than some of you are acknowledging

Elvin Hayes
Moses Malone
Ralph Sampson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

All hall of farmers or future hall of famers

Deke also finished his career there as a top notch backup for 5 years

kblo247
07-31-2013, 10:13 AM
The rockets are a lot closer to the lakers than some of you are acknowledging

Elvin Hayes
Moses Malone
Ralph Sampson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

All hall of farmers or future hall of famers


Deke also finished his career there as a top notch backup for 5 years
2 rings and not near the achievement list between them.*

We are talking Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and Mikan. 4 bugs who transcended the game. Mikan was the leagues first true original stat who they marketed. Kareem played for two decades, is the all time scorer, a 5x champ as a laker. Wilt is just wilt. Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks there was, he went to 4 finals in 5 years, three peated, got 3 finals Mvps, and was on the greatest playoff team in nba history.

Even barring them it still goes back to you can throw Vlade Divac into the list as he started on a finals team. You can throw in McAdoo and Thompson. You can even look at Elden who wasnt great but was serviceable.

And don't forget that Pau won his 2 titles playing most his minutes at C.

The C position isn't comparable and neither is the SG for any team. Its the two positions they have on lock in history

SpeeMN
07-31-2013, 10:31 AM
If KG is a Celtic, then Bob McAdoo and Mychal Thompson are Lakers.

Timberwolves:

PF- Kevin Garnett, Kevin Love, Joe Smith, Tom Gugliotta, Christian Laettner

That squad is legit.

Pablonovi
07-31-2013, 11:54 AM
2 rings and not near the achievement list between them.*

We are talking Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and Mikan. 4 bugs who transcended the game. Mikan was the leagues first true original stat who they marketed. Kareem played for two decades, is the all time scorer, a 5x champ as a laker. Wilt is just wilt. Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks there was, he went to 4 finals in 5 years, three peated, got 3 finals Mvps, and was on the greatest playoff team in nba history.

Even barring them it still goes back to you can throw Vlade Divac into the list as he started on a finals team. You can throw in McAdoo and Thompson. You can even look at Elden who wasnt great but was serviceable.

And don't forget that Pau won his 2 titles playing most his minutes at C.

The C position isn't comparable and neither is the SG for any team. Its the two positions they have on lock in history

Hey, kblo247
I gotta agree with you here that for all NBA Franchises Historically, Position-Wise:

The Lakers ARE #1: at SG (and it isn't even close): just Kobe + West crush any other Franchise;
The Lakers ARE #1: at C (and it isn't even close): just Mikan, KAJ, Wilt, Shaq crush any other Franchise.

also a pretty strong argument can be made that:
The Lakers ARE #1: at PG just because of Magic's majestic decade-long dominance.

But what's YOUR latest thinking about:
a) #1 for the other 3 positions; and
b) #2 and #3 for all 5 positions?

Kashmir13579
07-31-2013, 12:07 PM
Billups
Hamilton
Prince
Wallace
Wallace

I know there are probably better teams by position, but not since i've been watching.

Edit: I misunderstood the question

urban85disciple
07-31-2013, 12:17 PM
Hey, kblo247
I gotta agree with you here that for all NBA Franchises Historically, Position-Wise:

The Lakers ARE #1: at SG (and it isn't even close): just Kobe + West crush any other Franchise;
The Lakers ARE #1: at C (and it isn't even close): just Mikan, KAJ, Wilt, Shaq crush any other Franchise.

also a pretty strong argument can be made that:
The Lakers ARE #1: at PG just because of Magic's majestic decade-long dominance.

But what's YOUR latest thinking about:
a) #1 for the other 3 positions; and
b) #2 and #3 for all 5 positions?

Uh, Jerry West was a PG if I'm not mistaken. Him and Magic would make Lakers #1 at that spot though.

kblo247
07-31-2013, 12:42 PM
Goodrich gas called himself the pg. I mean it ain't shabby either way. If you call West a pg the lakers win because of him, Magic, and Van Exel. It doesn't really impact the sg legacy because Goodrich, Scott, Cooper, Eddie Jones, and Kobe were 2s.

But I am going with West as the SG, so
PG - Suns - KJ, Kidd, Marbury, and Nash (debatable what people want to call penny there)
SG - Lakers
SF - Boston
PF - Boston
C - Lakers

I really wanted to give the PF spot to Utah because of mailman but the Boston pfs deserve credit. Again I called west a sg so the suns are the easy win with their 4 PGs and penny in succession

Pablonovi
07-31-2013, 03:54 PM
The rockets are a lot closer to the lakers than some of you are acknowledging

Elvin Hayes
Moses Malone
Ralph Sampson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

All hall of farmers or future hall of famers

Deke also finished his career there as a top notch backup for 5 years

Hey rhino 17,
I think an excellent case for the Rockets' Franchise being the All-Time #2 at Center (or at worst #3 after the Celtics with Russell and Parrish just for starters); but your list here has some big problems in terms of being "a lot closer to the lakers":

PRE-CONDITIONS:
A) WHAT WE ARE NOT INCLUDING:
i) Any time they were not playing for the Rockets/Lakers;
ii) Any time they were not playing center for the Rockets/Lakers.

B) WHAT WE ARE COMPARING: THEIR ROCKETS/LAKERS CENTER "CAREERS":
i) PRIMARILY ONLY when the Top 4 Great Centers for either the Rockets/Lakers had Great Center-Years;
ii) secondarily when those top 4 had good Center-Years for the Rockets/Lakers;
iii) Great Center-Years by other (non-Top 4) Rockets/Lakers Centers

1) DWIGHT HOWARD: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 0 YEARS.
You GOTTA remove him; heck he hasn't even played a single game PLUS he DID play one season for the Lakers (and, even injured, was, at least, one of the 3 best centers in the League = small advantage to Lakers). Unless and until Dwight plays at least 5 great seasons for the Rockets; he CAN NOT be included in a list that is comparing each Franchise's Greatest All-Time Centers. At this moment, including him is just nonsense.

2) ELVIN HAYES: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 4 YEARS
Played 16 season; only 7 with the Rockets, only 4 of those 7 at Center.

3) MOSES MALONE: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 4-5 YEARS.
Played ONLY 6 of his 21 seasons with the Rockets; with ONLY 4-5 of those as great years.

4) RALPH SAMSON: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 0-1 YEAR! (21.0 ppg = not really Great).
All his other years for the Rockets were played as the PF, next to Hakeem playing at C.

5) YAO MING: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 6 YEARS. (NBA career only lasted 6 years plus 5 games of a seventh).

6) HAKEEM OLAJUWON: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER: 13 YEARS (at 20.0 ppg or better).
Played 17 of his 18 seasons with Rockets.

TOTAL OF THESE 6: GREAT ROCKETS CENTER-YEARS: 29 YEARS (maximum).

GREAT-CENTER YEARS FOR LAKERS:
MIKAN: 7 (NOT counting 1947-48, when he was the NBL's best player AND far better than any BAA/NBA player; also NOT counting 1946-47 when he played for the Chicago Gears)

WILT: 5

KAJ: 13

SHAQ: 8

TOTAL OF TOP 4 ALL-TIME LAKERS CENTERS = 33 GREAT YEARS.

OTHER GREAT YEARS BY (LESSER) LAKER CENTERS (or combos of centers):

ODOM + PAU + BYNUM = 5 GREAT YEARS (combined between them at Center (only))

Dwight HOWARD = 1 GREAT YEAR (2012-2013) (he was one of the top 3 Centers in the NBA)

THOMPSON + McADO + LOVELLETTE = 1-2 GREAT YEAR(s) (combined between them at Center (only))
Mychal THOMPSON (3 yrs X 10ppg) + Bob McAdoo (4 yr X 12ppg) + Clyde Lovellette (3 yr All-Star)
- - -
OVERALL ROCKET FRANCHISE = 29 GREAT CENTER-YEARS

OVERALL LAKER FRANCHISE = 40+ GREAT CENTER-YEARS

Am I leaving out any Great Center-Years by other Rockets. If NOT, then:
Lakers clearly win this comparison by a lot.
- - - - - - - - -
THE FOUR GREATEST ROCKETS CENTERS VS THE FOUR GREATEST LAKERS CENTERS
Regular Season:
H.Olajuwon (13) + E.Hayes (4) + M.Malone (4-5) + Y.Ming (6) = 28 Great Center Years VS
KAJ (13) + S.O'Neal (8) + G.Mikan (7) + W.Chamberlain (5) =33 Great Center Years

- - - - - - -
Generalized ALL-TIME CENTER RANK (only for Rockets/Lakers) (with number of great yrs)
1-2 TOP TIER: Hakeem (13) = Kareem (13) [1.5 points each]
3-4 2ND TIER: Shaq (8) = Mikan (7) [3.5 points each]
5-8 3RD TIER: Wilt (5) = Moses Malone (4-5) = Elvin Hayes (4) = Yao Ming (6) [6.5 points each]
so by A-T Ranking "Points" (low score wins):
ROCKETS: 21 points; LAKERS: 15 Based on each team's Top 4 Great Centers, Lakers win easily here.
- - - - - - -
A Couple More "Comparisons":
Reg. Season Games by each team's Top 4 Centers:
Rockets: 2699; Lakers 2385 (rounded to 2,700 vs 2,400 close enough to equal)

Post-Season Games:
N.B. Any post-season comparisons, whether: entire Play-Offs, OR only Finals, OR only Championships would totally favor the Lakers' Centers. (N.B. While it is true that, for either team, not every post-season appearance was mostly attributable to their center playing great; in the great majority of cases, this was true.)

Lakers have qualified for the Playoffs 60 times in 66 years (not including the NBL); have made the Finals 31 times (almost 1/2 of all years); and have won the Finals 16 times (almost 1/4 of all of them).

Rockets: have qualified for the Playoffs 27 times in 46 years with Finals 4 times; Champs: 2 times.

P.S. Your thinking seems to be that each player's entire career (even all those years where he DIDN'T play for either the Rockets or the Lakers) should be in consideration here; but then that would violate the OP "rules" of comparing Franchise vs Franchise AND of Comparing, in this case, Centers VS Centers.

For example, you can't include Howard before he has even played a single game. It's not impossible that he'd either get injured before the very 1st game of next season or not play great. If we tried to follow your thinking, then wouldn't we have to include Moses Malone's entire career as supposedly part of the L.A. Clippers? (Afterall, he was their property, when they were the Buffalo Braves, during a part of one summer.) Can you see how ridiculous that would be?

Similarly, it would certainly appear that you are including a player's career when he was NOT playing Center. But here's a great example of the problem with that: Who can forget that Magic Johnson started a Finals game jumping at Center? Based on that, should we include Magic Johnson amongst the Laker Centers? NO WAY.

Chronz
07-31-2013, 04:59 PM
The rockets are a lot closer to the lakers than some of you are acknowledging

Elvin Hayes
Moses Malone
Ralph Sampson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

All hall of farmers or future hall of famers

Deke also finished his career there as a top notch backup for 5 years
Cmon man, I love the Rockets lineage of centers but they dont stack up to LA.

Chronz
07-31-2013, 05:02 PM
Uh, Jerry West was a PG if I'm not mistaken. Him and Magic would make Lakers #1 at that spot though.

How would you even identify what guard position he played when nobody cared about that sort of thing back then?

You obviously have to retroactively pigeonhole him somewhere, I struggle with that sometimes. Hes prolly the first true combo guard, could play either spot depending on the talent.

D-Leethal
07-31-2013, 07:06 PM
Suns are a pretty good sleeper pick with Kidd, Nash, KJ, Marbury.

bagwell368
07-31-2013, 08:46 PM
The rockets are a lot closer to the lakers than some of you are acknowledging

Elvin Hayes
Moses Malone
Ralph Sampson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

All hall of farmers or future hall of famers

Deke also finished his career there as a top notch backup for 5 years

Elvin Hayes was a soft stat collector.

Sampson was a massive bust, it's a crime that he ended up on 4 AS teams, 2 was the max. A dog.

Howard hasn't played a minute for them.

Ming's career was blighted by injury shortened seasons.

Absolutely love the other two guys.... sorry, no dice.

bagwell368
07-31-2013, 08:48 PM
Uh, Jerry West was a PG if I'm not mistaken. Him and Magic would make Lakers #1 at that spot though.

PG? SG? No such thing back then. He was a guard that shot and made plays.

bagwell368
07-31-2013, 08:49 PM
Timberwolves:

PF- Kevin Garnett, Kevin Love, Joe Smith, Tom Gugliotta, Christian Laettner

That squad is legit.

Good for about 23rd place ahead of Buffalo...

Pablonovi
07-31-2013, 11:57 PM
JERRY WEST AS SG; PLUS GREATEST SF: BAYLOR VS BIRD

How would you even identify what guard position he played when nobody cared about that sort of thing back then?

You obviously have to retroactively pigeonhole him somewhere, I struggle with that sometimes. Hes prolly the first true combo guard, could play either spot depending on the talent.

High Horse,
I agree with both the fact that they didn't even treat/name guards as either PG or SG then; AND that West was a complete combo guard. But, particularly for the purposes of this thread, we should go ahead and "pigeonhole" him. My own opinion is that he should be treated as a SG:
1) GAIL GOODRICH WAS THE PG: For one thing, for 7 of his 14 years, he played with Gail Goodrich, and when they played together Gail was more the PG and Jerry more the SG (and Gail himself has said).

2) Then, at least according to "Basketball-Reference", they list him as the SG in 68-69 when Gail was, temporarily, no longer with the Lakers. So that's 8 years out of 14 right there.

3) Then, if he was half-and-half the other non-Goodrich 6 years, then that would make 11 as SG and 3 as PG.

Incidentally, for those who like the idea of the Lakers "doing their best" in this thread; if West is treated as a SG, then ...
Lakers = #1 All-Time Franchise SG Position: (starting with Kobe, West and Byron Scott); AND

are strongly in the running to win the
Lakers = #1 All-Time Franchise PG Position: (starting with Magic, Goodrich, Nixon, Fisher and Slater Martin).

For people's consideration, here is a possible ranked-list of the top All-Time Laker Franchise Players at forward:

PF: Lakers' All-Time Franchise Players:
A.C. Green, Happy Hairston, Lamar Odom, Vern Mikkelson, Rick Fox, Mychal Thompson, Bob McAdoo, Robert Horry, Jim Pollard (he had 7 pretty good years there so maybe he should rank higher here).
[imo Because the top PFs on this list were not greats (at least while playing for the Lakers), this is NOT a Top 3 Franchise PF group (for example, they are clearly inferior to the Celtics McHale-Garnett duo); but it could very well be Top 5]

SF: Lakers' All-Time Franchise Players:
Elgin Baylor, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, Jamaal Wilkes
[Looking at these 4 SFs, I think the Lakers could very well be Top 3 at this position too.]

GREATEST SF OF ALL-TIME: ELGIN BAYLOR VS LARRY BIRD
[I know that I am in a tiny minority on this, but I believe that Baylor's career was EQUAL to Larry Bird's career. Larry had 3 Chips; but Elgin had 8 Finals. Larry had 11.5 great seasons (with a 6-year Peak) and 10 great Play-Offs. Elgin had 11.5 great seasons (with a 5-year Peak) and 9 great Play-Offs.

MickeyMgl
08-01-2013, 04:46 AM
Nothings stopping you, but they are well beneath KG anyways so its not like it changes this thread. So yea, pretty pointless.

For the purposes of this discussion, they would not be well below KG combined. McAdoo alone is not far behind Garnett. The more pointless thing is that the Celtics could probably win that position without KG. They shouldn't have to pad by claiming KG.

utahjazzno12fan
08-01-2013, 06:35 AM
The Utah Jazz have a pretty good history at the point guard position. They obviously had John Stockton, but then you throw in Deron Williams, Pete Maravich (who was a combo PG/SG), Derek Fisher, and Mark Jackson (at the end of his career).

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 06:48 AM
JERRY WEST AS SG; PLUS GREATEST SF: BAYLOR VS BIRD


GREATEST SF OF ALL-TIME: ELGIN BAYLOR VS LARRY BIRD
[I know that I am in a tiny minority on this, but I believe that Baylor's career was EQUAL to Larry Bird's career. Larry had 3 Chips; but Elgin had 8 Finals. Larry had 11.5 great seasons (with a 6-year Peak) and 10 great Play-Offs. Elgin had 11.5 great seasons (with a 5-year Peak) and 9 great Play-Offs.

Baylor was in 8 Finals because the West was weak and the count of teams in the NBA was minuscule. There was the WCF and the Finals. bTW how did Baylor do record wise in the Finals? Baylor was a poor FG% shooter for his time, and not special with FT% either. Bird killed him shooting, and Bird killed him passing, and if you adjust rebounding to reflect the times, Baylors numbers shrink right down. You missteped here, Bird is clearly greater.

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 06:52 AM
For the purposes of this discussion, they would not be well below KG combined. McAdoo alone is not far behind Garnett. The more pointless thing is that the Celtics could probably win that position without KG. They shouldn't have to pad by claiming KG.

Lol. McAdoo was clearly not a team leader in terms of contribution on the floor or in the locker room anywhere near KG on LAL vs BOS.

Chronz
08-01-2013, 01:26 PM
For the purposes of this discussion, they would not be well below KG combined.
I dont agree with that at all. KG was the MVP for much of the year, before his injury sidelined him it was practically his. He wound up settling for DPOY and being the most productive player on a championship team. The guys you mentioned dont add up to all that, they were essentially brought in as 6th men to score or in Thompson's case, to defend McHale.


McAdoo alone is not far behind Garnett. The more pointless thing is that the Celtics could probably win that position without KG. They shouldn't have to pad by claiming KG.
You do realize this is about how the player performed when he was actually playing for the team in question. To get an idea of just how absurd your claim was, consider the fact that the Mac played 4475 total regular season minutes with the Lakers in 4 years. He averaged 20 MPG exactly for 4 years. KG nearly eclipsed that mark in 2 seasons despite the 2nd one being an injury riddled season.

So the Celtics aren't padding ****, they actually had a player that was that productive.

Jeffy25
08-01-2013, 01:34 PM
Lakers & Celtics, my dark horse would be Philadelphia.

Iverson
Dr. J
Barkley
Moses
Wilt

yup, this.

Chronz
08-01-2013, 01:47 PM
High Horse,
I agree with both the fact that they didn't even treat/name guards as either PG or SG then; AND that West was a complete combo guard. But, particularly for the purposes of this thread, we should go ahead and "pigeonhole" him. My own opinion is that he should be treated as a SG:
1) GAIL GOODRICH WAS THE PG: For one thing, for 7 of his 14 years, he played with Gail Goodrich, and when they played together Gail was more the PG and Jerry more the SG (and Gail himself has said).

2) Then, at least according to "Basketball-Reference", they list him as the SG in 68-69 when Gail was, temporarily, no longer with the Lakers. So that's 8 years out of 14 right there.

3) Then, if he was half-and-half the other non-Goodrich 6 years, then that would make 11 as SG and 3 as PG.

That seems to be the conclusion most have come to. What I always ask these people is what makes them choose the position. Does playing style matter? Height? What about who they defend and who defends them?

Its just hard for me to call a guy who led the league in assists a SG, and the guy who did most of his damage off the ball with his outside shooting a PG. It sounds backwards to me. Particularly when you consider their height and who defended whom. Its like the inverse of the relationship Eric Snow and Iverson had. Snow was the bigger player who checked guys that AI couldn't but he was still the primary set up guy while AI worked off the ball.

Still I suppose those are traditional labels that dont apply to non-traditional setups and older teams, we've seen scoring PG's and playmaking SG's before, like Wade+Damon Jones.

So yea, I guess Im inclined to agree with West as a SG. I want him at PG for selfish reasons, given the evidence, you guys are prolly right tho.


GREATEST SF OF ALL-TIME: ELGIN BAYLOR VS LARRY BIRD
[I know that I am in a tiny minority on this, but I believe that Baylor's career was EQUAL to Larry Bird's career. Larry had 3 Chips; but Elgin had 8 Finals. Larry had 11.5 great seasons (with a 6-year Peak) and 10 great Play-Offs. Elgin had 11.5 great seasons (with a 5-year Peak) and 9 great Play-Offs.
I feel both are overrated. Neither had a particularly long career. Given the state of sports medicine back in the day and the lack of quality athletic apparel , his recover from injury whilst remaining an All-Star is very impressive, but the sad truth is that it sapped him of athletic ability and would eventually turn him into a team killer. He should have never been ahead of Wilt in the offensive pecking order, but the 2 clashed immensely. Younger Elgin would have been just as egotistical but he would have at least had the athleticism to back it up and take advantage of the lanes Wilt created. As it were, his jumpshot was lacking and the 2 could not mesh at all. Bird would have made Wilt an MVP in the same position. Bird is like the ultimate glue player on top of being one of the most productive players of all time, thats a rare combo that not many wing players can claim. Pretty much just him and Magic IMO. Thats why in order for Elgin to top Bird, he would need to have superior numbers or superior team success because the intangibles surely dont favor him. It doesn't help any that the Lakers reeled off the greatest winning streak in professional team sports the minute Elgin retired.

Pablonovi
08-01-2013, 07:39 PM
On Elgin Baylor (in response to "High Horse" and bagwell)


[snip]

"High Horse" said:

"I feel both are overrated. Neither had a particularly long career. Given the state of sports medicine back in the day and the lack of quality athletic apparel , his recover from injury whilst remaining an All-Star is very impressive, but the sad truth is that it sapped him of athletic ability and would eventually turn him into a team killer. He should have never been ahead of Wilt in the offensive pecking order, but the 2 clashed immensely. Younger Elgin would have been just as egotistical but he would have at least had the athleticism to back it up and take advantage of the lanes Wilt created. As it were, his jumpshot was lacking and the 2 could not mesh at all. Bird would have made Wilt an MVP in the same position. Bird is like the ultimate glue player on top of being one of the most productive players of all time, thats a rare combo that not many wing players can claim. Pretty much just him and Magic IMO. Thats why in order for Elgin to top Bird, he would need to have superior numbers or superior team success because the intangibles surely dont favor him. It doesn't help any that the Lakers reeled off the greatest winning streak in professional team sports the minute Elgin retired."

bagwell said,
"Baylor was in 8 Finals because the West was weak and the count of teams in the NBA was minuscule. There was the WCF and the Finals. bTW how did Baylor do record wise in the Finals? Baylor was a poor FG% shooter for his time, and not special with FT% either. Bird killed him shooting, and Bird killed him passing, and if you adjust rebounding to reflect the times, Baylors numbers shrink right down. You missteped here, Bird is clearly greater."

Thanx to both of you High Horse and bagwell, for your well-reasoned responses.
I did NOT remember about the chemistry problems Baylor caused with Wilt.

Some research on the Lakers' PlayOff Performance during Baylor's 12 years and YES 12 P-Os:
N.B. 9 of the 12 years WERE 3 rounds NOT 2; only 3 years were 2 rounds: '63,'65,'66]

1. 58-59 .458 Lost FINALS 4-0 Boston (N.B. #1 P-O Scorer).
2. 59-60 .333 Lost SEMI-FINALS 4-3 Hawks
3. 60-61 .456 Lost SEMI-FINALS 4-3 Hawks (lost last 2 gms by 3 total pts;N.B.*#1 P-O Scorer!!)
4. 61-62 .675 Lost FINALS 4-3 Boston (N.B. #1 P-O Scorer). * 60-61 despite no Finals!
5. 62-63 .662 Lost FINALS 4-2 Boston (N.B. #1 P-O Scorer).
6. 63-64 .525 Lost Quarter-Finals Hawks 3-2
7. 64-65 .613 Lost FINALS 4-1 Boston
8. 65-66 .562 Lost FINALS 4-3 Boston (lost game 7, 95-93)
9. 66-67 .444 Lost Quarter-Finals San Fran.(who made the Finals) (3-0)
10.67-68 .634 Lost FINALS Boston 4-2
11.68-69 .671 Lost FINALS Boston 4-3 (game 7, 108-106)
12.69-70 .561 Lost FINALS New York 4-3

Sum-up:
Baylor's Lakers Lost 7 FINALS to that Boston "All-Star" Team (3X 4-3; 2X 4-2; 1X 4-1; 1X 4-0)
Baylor's Lakers Lost 1 FINALS to New York (4-3)
Baylor's Lakers Made The Playoffs in all 12 of his full-seasons; including 8 FINALS
12 Series They Lost:(6X 4-3 (3 gm 7s by 2pts or less); 1 X 3-2; 2X 4-2; 1X 4-1, 1X 4-0 1X 3-0)

Baylor was 4 X the over-all Playoffs' Leading Scorer (including once when he didn't even make the Finals; and another time, his first Finals, despite the fact that they lost all 4 games)
In 3 of the 4 years they didn't make it to the FINALS, they lost to a FINALS team.

13. 70-71 [due to injuries, only played 2 games]
14. 71-72 [due to injuries, only played 9 games; then retired right before 33 game win-streak]

Baylor made 10 All-NBA Teams
Baylor made 11 All-Star Teams
Baylor's Career Points/gm & Rebounds/gm were great (and almost identical) Reg. Season & P-Os
Reg. Season: 27.4 ppg 13.5 rpg
Playoffs: 27.0 ppg 12.9 rpg

ThaDubs
08-01-2013, 08:00 PM
PG = Utah Jazz
Ricky Green (all-star), John Stockton (AST/STL leader), Deron Williams (better in Utah)

PF= Utah Jazz
Karl Malone, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Derrick Favors

/end of my homerism rant.

Derrick Favors wut

Pablonovi
08-03-2013, 06:15 PM
[SNIP]

I feel both are overrated [Here you're referring to Bird & Baylor]. Neither had a particularly long career. Given the state of sports medicine back in the day and the lack of quality athletic apparel , his recover from injury whilst remaining an All-Star is very impressive, but the sad truth is that it sapped him of athletic ability and would eventually turn him into a team killer. He should have never been ahead of Wilt in the offensive pecking order, but the 2 clashed immensely. Younger Elgin would have been just as egotistical but he would have at least had the athleticism to back it up and take advantage of the lanes Wilt created. As it were, his jumpshot was lacking and the 2 could not mesh at all. Bird would have made Wilt an MVP in the same position. Bird is like the ultimate glue player on top of being one of the most productive players of all time, thats a rare combo that not many wing players can claim. Pretty much just him and Magic IMO. Thats why in order for Elgin to top Bird, he would need to have superior numbers or superior team success because the intangibles surely dont favor him. It doesn't help any that the Lakers reeled off the greatest winning streak in professional team sports the minute Elgin retired.

I wanted to return to this statement of yours because I think you really nailed the comparison here. I have a strong pro-Baylor personal bias; but your comparison points trump that bias. Additionally, I've re-reviewed Bird's MVP voting record: and it is far-superior to Baylor's. True Elgin finished behind: Wilt, West, Oscar and Russell (nothing to feel bad about); but Bird was #1 or #2 seven times (plus other lofty but lower-rankings). Elgin loses on both the Chips and the Reg. Season MVPs; case closed.

You said, "Bird would have made Wilt an MVP in the same position. Bird is like the ultimate glue player on top of being one of the most productive players of all time, thats a rare combo that not many wing players can claim. Pretty much just him and Magic IMO. "

As I think about this, I must also agree completely here. I can just picture what Bird would have done "with" Wilt. He WOULD have made him the MVP! Excellent point; because, after Magic he WAS the ultimate glue player - the team always came before his individual accomplishments.

At the same time, as usual, your opinions are measured. For example, I agree strongly that "... both are overrated..."; specifically because (only when compared to the All-Time Greats) they had short careers. When we get to comparing such All-Time Greats, length of career is a significant factor.

Kudos to you,
Pablo