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IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 07:24 AM
This video is making the rounds (from Yahoo Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/nine-minute-reminder-michael-jordan-really-good-finishing-215404671.html) and Reddit). Dunno if it's been on PSD yet, but for all the people who didn't get a chance to see him play in his prime, this is an awesome montage. Everybody that says MJ wouldn't be able to score against the zone needs to count how many times he is double, triple, and quadruple teamed and still gets to the rim, scoring over and around waiting shot blockers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4

KingstonHawke
07-24-2013, 08:11 AM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.

king4day
07-24-2013, 09:26 AM
Highlights can make anyone look good ;)

Seriously though, I don't think there ever was a doubt he could hang in todays game. And Lebron isn't winning MVP's his entire career. MJ would have been just as capable to take some during Lebrons reign as well. Maybe not as many, but not a chance he doesn't grab some.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 10:38 AM
I mean, anyone who thinks Jordan wouldn't dominate today like he did then just doesn't understand how good he is. Sure the paint was more open then, but he would still find a way, and his athletic ability just shed would be defenders at the rim, in the paint, from mid-range, etc.

Sly Guy
07-24-2013, 10:52 AM
the thing about jordan as shown in those highlights was that he was just as capable of making the circus shot as he was throwing it down. That made him an absolute nightmare for defenders. He was going to the rim, you knew that, but when he got there, he just had so many angles available to him to finish, so even just fouling him to send him to the line was hard, let alone the good chance that he'd still finish through contact.

I have yet to see any other player to finish around the rim as well as Jordan. Guys like vince, kobe, lebron, all at one point had the ability to elevate as well, if not better than jordan did, but none could finish like him.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 11:05 AM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.

It isn't just the highlight reel, this was almost every game he played. What does it say that a reel of 15 second of just one type of play is clips is 9 minutes long? He beat triple teams regularly, zone is not going to affect him the way it's played in the NBA. No handchecking helps his case. Without the ability to hand check and push him off angle, no one's staying in front of MJ consistently. The rules are simply easier now than they were in the 90s for slashing wing players. 50ppg if he tried for it.

dnl123
07-24-2013, 11:09 AM
It isn't just the highlight reel, this was almost every game he played. What does it say that a reel of 15 second of just one type of play is clips is 9 minutes long? He beat triple teams regularly, zone is not going to affect him the way it's played in the NBA. No handchecking helps his case. Without the ability to hand check and push him off angle, no one's staying in front of MJ consistently. The rules are simply easier now than they were in the 90s for slashing wing players. 50ppg if he tried for it.

I totally understand what you're saying, but you could put a similar type of video together for Lebron for sure or even Kobe for that matter, and I don't think that means either of them is as good as Jordan. Jordan would never score 50 per game in the modern NBA haha, but he would be dominant. I think he could average 35 or so year to year. That's still incredible when it comes down to it.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Zones without handchecking would definitely help MJ's game, but he aint approaching 50PPG. If anything his scoring rate gos down with the decrease in transition opportunities and overall possessions. I also believe defenses are better nowadays. Still, I could see his already deadly scoring efficiency go up quite abit.

bartron_44
07-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Lets not also forget that Michael was an incredible defender, and could score from just about anywhere effectively... not just at the rim. He also rebounded extremely well for a guard, and averaged over 5 assists per game. With no hand checking I don't think anyone would be able to stop him from getting to the basket... no one.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 11:15 AM
I totally understand what you're saying, but you could put a similar type of video together for Lebron for sure or even Kobe for that matter, and I don't think that means either of them is as good as Jordan. Jordan would never score 50 per game in the modern NBA haha, but he would be dominant. I think he could average 35 or so year to year. That's still incredible when it comes down to it.

The video is mostly for people who didn't get the opportunity to see him play. Truth be told, as time went by my mind kind of glazed over how impossible it was to stop MJ back then, until I saw this. I appreciate it now, HATED it when my Pacers could never take the Central Division because of him.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 11:23 AM
Zones without handchecking would definitely help MJ's game, but he aint approaching 50PPG. If anything his scoring rate gos down with the decrease in transition opportunities and overall possessions. I also believe defenses are better nowadays. Still, I could see his already deadly scoring efficiency go up quite abit.

I disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% TS, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(Numbers from Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).

boboo73
07-24-2013, 11:25 AM
The video is mostly for people who didn't get the opportunity to see him play. Truth be told, as time went by my mind kind of glazed over how impossible it was to stop MJ back then, until I saw this. I appreciate it now, HATED it when my Pacers could never take the Central Division because of him.

When Lebron had his sick six game run this year of 30+ PPG and 60% FGP Magic Johnson said he thought it was the greatest run he ever saw. Then Magic and Wilbon went over some of MAGIC'S streaks and Magic said he had forgotten about a lot of them.

Point being is people have such short term memory when it comes to sports that video reels like this are needed sometimes to remind us why the general consensus is that Jordan is the greatest of all time.

***Side note on the 50PPG. That may be a little high but Jordan would also be getting to the line a lot more often under the current rules. Therefore diminished amount of easy transition points is irrelevant when the clock is stopped and you are taking a bunch of free throws.

C_Mund
07-24-2013, 11:40 AM
When Lebron had his sick six game run this year of 30+ PPG and 60% FGP Magic Johnson said he thought it was the greatest run he ever saw. Then Magic and Wilbon went over some of MAGIC'S streaks and Magic said he had forgotten about a lot of them.

Point being is people have such short term memory when it comes to sports that video reels like this are needed sometimes to remind us why the general consensus is that Jordan is the greatest of all time.

***Side note on the 50PPG. That may be a little high but Jordan would also be getting to the line a lot more often under the current rules. Therefore diminished amount of easy transition points is irrelevant when the clock is stopped and you are taking a bunch of free throws.

I agree. MJ was able to thrive in an era that was otherwise dominated by big men protecting the paint. Nowadays there's small-ball, plus defensive 3 keeps weak side help from being under the rim all the time.

Becks2307
07-24-2013, 11:47 AM
"It's so easy to average 32, just 8,8,8,8" - Michael Jordan.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 11:52 AM
"It's so easy to average 32, just 8,8,8,8" - Michael Jordan.

Steve Prefontaine reference?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 11:55 AM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.

:facepalm:

boboo73
07-24-2013, 11:59 AM
:facepalm:

What he said!

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 11:59 AM
lets not also forget that michael was an incredible defender, and could score from just about anywhere effectively... Not just at the rim. He also rebounded extremely well for a guard, and averaged over 5 assists per game. With no hand checking i don't think anyone would be able to stop him from getting to the basket... No one.^


i disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% ts, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(numbers from basketball-reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).

zing!!!!!!!!!!

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 11:59 AM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.

This comment alone let's me know u are about 17yrs old.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 12:02 PM
Highlights can make anyone look good ;)

Seriously though, I don't think there ever was a doubt he could hang in todays game. And Lebron isn't winning MVP's his entire career. MJ would have been just as capable to take some during Lebrons reign as well. Maybe not as many, but not a chance he doesn't grab some.


Huh? Please, all of Jordan's numbers from back then would be even more now!! He would dominate this league moreso now than he did before.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 12:05 PM
This comment alone let's me know u are about 17yrs old.
Lol.

Huh? Please, all of Jordan's numbers from back then would be even more now!! He would dominate this league moreso now than he did before.

100 percent this. These kids are delusional Legend. Jordan would have owned this league.

ewing
07-24-2013, 12:08 PM
you would need to find a new species not just a new group of players for there to be a possibility that prime Jordan would not be a dominate force

raiddalake
07-24-2013, 12:16 PM
OK lets keep it real in here i been saying all along that Jordan wasn't checked by anyone with his athleticism. Look at those bums guarding him. He would have a hard time scoring because of the athlete in the NBA now. Jordan was a freak of nature back then just like Lebron now. I'm not saying he wouldn't score he is a scorer but lets be real Kobe Lebron and even Wade would have put numbers up back then also. Could u image Lebron in that era who could hold him you put a big man on him he drives by you put a small on him he post him up. Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders back then and Lebron would crush him on the box. Food for thought The Pistons use to put Rodman on Jordan sometimes. Lmao

boboo73
07-24-2013, 12:23 PM
OK lets keep it real in here i been saying all along that Jordan wasn't checked by anyone with his athleticism. Look at those bums guarding him. He would have a hard time scoring because of the athlete in the NBA now. Jordan was a freak of nature back then just like Lebron now. I'm not saying he wouldn't score he is a scorer but lets be real Kobe Lebron and even Wade would have put numbers up back then also. Could u image Lebron in that era who could hold him you put a big man on him he drives by you put a small on him he post him up. Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders back then and Lebron would crush him on the box. Food for thought The Pistons use to put Rodman on Jordan sometimes. Lmao

The exact opposite of what you posted is true. You seemingly thrown out a known fact that all NBA players in today's league are somehow all better than they were 15 years ago.

Please look at Jordan's numbers in the late 80's and early 90's and then rescind your comment that somehow Wade and Kobe could touch those numbers.

Sly Guy
07-24-2013, 12:24 PM
I disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% TS, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(Numbers from Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).

I was going to raise the exact same points, thank you for saving me time.

Just watch the video, half of those layups, MJs was crying for a foul, and in today's NBA, he'd get every single one of those calls. Also, keep in mind the pace of play during Jordan's era. The bulls' weren't winning 110-100 games, they were winning by scoring 85-95 a game, and that is with Jordan scoring 35 of them.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 12:30 PM
My God!! "Own" is a understatement. If Jordan was playing right now Lebron might be retiring with zero ships just like other superstars like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Reggie, etc..

What I don't like about a lot of members here, is that they make comments about how Jordan wouldn't do this or that, but they were 2 when Jordan was winning. So it's like what gives u the right to make a comment when u was barely able to walk. That's like me saying Ali couldn't beat Hollyfield. Ali was dominating before my time so I can't speak on such. But everybody here wants to try and act like they know something when they really simply don't know.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 12:31 PM
My God!! "Own" is a understatement. If Jordan was playing right now Lebron might be retiring with zero ships just like other superstars like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Reggie, etc..

What I don't like about a lot of members here, is that they make comments about how Jordan wouldn't do this or that, but they were 2 when Jordan was winning. So it's like what gives u the right to make a comment when u was barely able to walk. That's like me saying Ali couldn't beat Hollyfield. Ali was dominating before my time so I can't speak on such. But everybody here wants to try and act like they know something when they really simply don't know.

Love the Ali analogy.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 12:35 PM
Wow

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 12:36 PM
OK lets keep it real in here i been saying all along that Jordan wasn't checked by anyone with his athleticism. Look at those bums guarding him. He would have a hard time scoring because of the athlete in the NBA now. Jordan was a freak of nature back then just like Lebron now. I'm not saying he wouldn't score he is a scorer but lets be real Kobe Lebron and even Wade would have put numbers up back then also. Could u image Lebron in that era who could hold him you put a big man on him he drives by you put a small on him he post him up. Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders back then and Lebron would crush him on the box. Food for thought The Pistons use to put Rodman on Jordan sometimes. Lmao

Excuse me sir, no disrespect non-whatsoever, but how old are you??

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 12:40 PM
You can tell when a youngster is posting. They will post something that's common knowledge to the veteran fan like its some special knowledge.


Like the guy who said. " food for thought, the pistons would put Rodman on Jordan sometimes."


Really? You think!? Now u feel older?

Lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 12:43 PM
My God!! "Own" is a understatement. If Jordan was playing right now Lebron might be retiring with zero ships just like other superstars like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Reggie, etc..

What I don't like about a lot of members here, is that they make comments about how Jordan wouldn't do this or that, but they were 2 when Jordan was winning. So it's like what gives u the right to make a comment when u was barely able to walk. That's like me saying Ali couldn't beat Hollyfield. Ali was dominating before my time so I can't speak on such. But everybody here wants to try and act like they know something when they really simply don't know.

Usually the ones who claim this are under the age of 21, and have accounts made after 2010.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 12:52 PM
Zones without handchecking would definitely help MJ's game, but he aint approaching 50PPG. If anything his scoring rate gos down with the decrease in transition opportunities and overall possessions. I also believe defenses are better nowadays. Still, I could see his already deadly scoring efficiency go up quite abit.
I disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% TS, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(Numbers from Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).
95.8 would still be second in the league in today's NBA. Every team Jordan played on would've been 1st or 2nd in the league in terms of pace until 1991-92 season despite him being on a relatively slow paced team.

There is more to the story than that, it's just harder to be a volume scorer today. Fist off, stars don't play as many minutes, because heavy minutes tend to hurt your chances at a title. Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35752/heavy-minutes-hurt-title-chances

1986-87 Jordan 40.0 minutes per game.
1992-93 Jordan 39.3 minutes per game.
2012-13 Luol Deng led league with 38.7.

I think we've established he'd likely be playing at a slower pace and less minutes. What about percentage of team shots, here are the usage rates and shot attempts, compared to high scorers now:

86-87 Jordan 2279 shot attempts 38.3% usage
92-93 Jordan 2003 shot attempts 34.7% usage

2012-13 points leaders:
12-13 Durant 1433 shot attempts 29.8%
12-13 Carmelo 1489 shot attempts 35.6% usage
12-13 Kobe 1595 shot attempts 31.9% usage
12-13 LeBron 1354 shot attempts 30.2% usage

Seems like a combination of factors would ultimately lead him to take significantly less shots. I just don't think it's reasonable to think he'd find a way to take 400-800 more shots than players considered hero hogballers like Kobe & Melo.

I just don't see how he'd get to 50PPG, unless he was shooting in the mid-60% range.

No hand checking would be fantastic for him, but I think it would be hard on Jordan when modern ball side flooding tightened the lanes and to make it worse Jordan didn't have a great 3 point shot to keep defenders honest. In fact, the only player in the NBA this season that averaged 20 points per game while shooting as badly on 3 point shots as Michael Jordan did in 1986-87 is LaMarcus Aldridge. I just don't think his shooting percentage would be a lot higher than it was.

It's not about him as much as it is about the game has changed and 20 point scorers as a whole have went down over the years.

Number of players averaging over 20PPG:
1986-87: 29
1992-93: 21
2012-13: 11

And to clarify, I'm certain Jordan would be destined to be great in any era because of his natural athleticism combined with an incredible work ethic and determination. I'm just saying the game changed.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 12:58 PM
I was going to raise the exact same points, thank you for saving me time.

Just watch the video, half of those layups, MJs was crying for a foul, and in today's NBA, he'd get every single one of those calls. Also, keep in mind the pace of play during Jordan's era. The bulls' weren't winning 110-100 games, they were winning by scoring 85-95 a game, and that is with Jordan scoring 35 of them.Jordan would definitely get more calls to the rack, but modern defenses are tuned to prevent it. In fact, the NBA as a whole has a lot less free throws now than during Jordan's era:

1986-87-- 30.5
1992-93-- 27.7
2012-13-- 22.2

I assume, the reduction is due to a variety of reasons... Slower pace/less shots, defenses squeezing driving lanes forcing more shots away from the rack and most of all a dramatic increase in 3 pointers. The average team took 4.7 3pt shots per game in 1986-87. In 2012-13, Steph Curry averaged 7.2 and the average team averaged 20.0.

KingPosey
07-24-2013, 12:59 PM
People try to make WAY too much about the physical changes of the game. Jordan played against some of these players today.

The human body has not physically crossed a threshold so drastically different in the last 15 years, even 20. We aren't talking about Babe Ruth in the MLB today. A very solid amount of players are every bit on par athletically.

It's such an overblown notion.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 01:03 PM
Usually the ones who claim this are under the age of 21, and have accounts made after 2010.

I agree. Someone around 35 wouldn't dare make those claims because they simply know better. And they also act like Jordan's era is so different than today, it is but it's not. For example, Kobe played in Jordan era, so did Duncan. Jordan's era wasn't that long ago. The rules have changed the game but I don't think there's this major difference in athleticsm. Jermaine O Neal and VC is close to Jordan's era as well. The game is played differently but I think it's easier now with all the rules.


And I also feel players was even more skilled back then. Look at the lack of big men. We have big men but they are simply not as skilled with their footwork and fundamentals. Back then u could draft a player at the mid to end of the first round and he could produce something the 1st year. Now u draft a player in that draft slot and he's not productive until year 2 if ur lucky. I remember when the bulls drafted Bj Armstrong, he was able to play and he had solid PG fundamentals, now these players have to go through the summer leaugue a few times before u know who they are. I'm not talking lotto pics but guys drafted 18 or so. It's just different era. The athleticsm is the about same IMO but the fundamentals are definitely a step down. I'm a bulls fan but a guy like Noah isn't a star in Jordan's time. Now I see ppl claiming he's the 2nd or 3rd best center in the league.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 01:11 PM
95.8 would still be second in the league in today's NBA. Every team Jordan played on would've been 1st or 2nd in the league in terms of pace until 1991-92 season despite him being on a relatively slow paced team.

There is more to the story than that, it's just harder to be a volume scorer today. Fist off, stars don't play as many minutes, because heavy minutes tend to hurt your chances at a title. Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-title-chances

1986-87 Jordan 40.0 minutes per game.
1992-93 Jordan 39.3 minutes per game.
2012-13 Luol Deng led league with 38.7.

I think we've established he'd likely be playing at a slower pace and less minutes. What about percentage of team shots, here are the usage rates and shot attempts, compared to high scorers now:

86-87 Jordan 2279 shot attempts 38.3% usage
92-93 Jordan 2003 shot attempts 34.7% usage

2012-13 points leaders:
12-13 Durant 1433 shot attempts 29.8%
12-13 Carmelo 1489 shot attempts 35.6% usage
12-13 Kobe 1595 shot attempts 31.9% usage
12-13 LeBron 1354 shot attempts 30.2% usage

Seems like a combination of factors would ultimately lead him to take significantly less shots. I just don't think it's reasonable to think he'd find a way to take 400-800 more shots than players considered hero hogballers like Kobe & Melo.

I just don't see how he'd get to 50PPG, unless he was shooting in the mid-60% range.

No hand checking would be fantastic for him, but I think it would be hard on Jordan when modern ball side flooding tightened the lanes and to make it worse Jordan didn't have a great 3 point shot to keep defenders honest. In fact, the only player in the NBA this season that averaged 20 points per game while shooting as badly on 3 point shots as Michael Jordan did in 1986-87 is LaMarcus Aldridge. I just don't think his shooting percentage would be a lot higher than it was.

It's not about him as much as it is about the game has changed and 20 point scorers as a whole have went down over the years.

Number of players averaging over 20PPG:
1986-87: 29
1992-93: 21
2012-13: 11

And to clarify, I'm certain Jordan would be destined to be great in any era because of his natural athleticism combined with an incredible work ethic and determination. I'm just saying the game changed.


Lmaaooo. So there's a big difference between 40.0 and 39.3 mins? The mins played have zero correlation to when Jordan started winning championships. He started winning because the players around him grew a lot better, especially Pippen coming into his own.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 01:16 PM
People try to make WAY too much about the physical changes of the game. Jordan played against some of these players today.

The human body has not physically crossed a threshold so drastically different in the last 15 years, even 20. We aren't talking about Babe Ruth in the MLB today. A very solid amount of players are every bit on par athletically.

It's such an overblown notion.

Totally agree. But when people say things like, "the players of today are physically better." It's just a slogan to make them feel better and make them look older like they know something. When really they are about 16 yrs old behind the computer trying to play grown-up. Some of these posters remind me of my daughter wanting to wear kids fake make-up trying to play grown. I wish they cut-it-out and just be yourself.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 01:27 PM
Lmaaooo. So there's a big difference between 40.0 and 39.3 mins? The mins played have zero correlation to when Jordan started winning championships. He started winning because the players around him grew a lot better, especially Pippen coming into his own.Think you missed the point. Players today do not play as many minutes, the article (which I've fixed the link on) is about the value of limiting minutes in the regular season. The point was Jordan's minutes per game would be considered an outlier in today's game and if he was on a competitive team his coach would be questioned for overworking him like Tom Thibodeau is with Luol Deng and the Bulls.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 01:28 PM
People try to make WAY too much about the physical changes of the game. Jordan played against some of these players today.

The human body has not physically crossed a threshold so drastically different in the last 15 years, even 20. We aren't talking about Babe Ruth in the MLB today. A very solid amount of players are every bit on par athletically.

It's such an overblown notion.overblown to put it mildy, they act like Jordan's era was like late 1800s baseball players into today's game comparison. the NBA had well evolved by Jordan's time(you didn't see people getting 28 RPG & 50 ppg, etc. wasn't possible because the athletes were bigger stronger faster smarter & better defenders, & the althetes were just as good then. there's a reason why the Bulls Celtics & Lakers from then are more respected than today's best teams, & why the dream team is looked at as unbeatable, especially by today's usa teams. idiots act like he played 100 years ago. really he was putting up 45 & 43 points on zone defense at age 40, just 10 years ago(51 points age 39 with zone in the league) with not 1 shred of prime left in him. it's freakin scary to think what he could do now in his prime. in 96-98 he won 3 straight titles in a slowed down, more defensive minded NBA, slower than recent times. though I still think defense overall as a 1 on 1 scorer(not a team) was harder to score against all the way through Jordan's whole career than it is now days. less 30 ppg guys in his day

if his best 2 ppg years then were 37.1 & 35 ppg, then I think today he could get 40-42 ppg his top years now. and I might be low balling that. now if he was on a good team he wouldn't try for those kinda numbers, but on a bad team his numbers would get real scary real quick

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:30 PM
It isn't just the highlight reel, this was almost every game he played. What does it say that a reel of 15 second of just one type of play is clips is 9 minutes long? He beat triple teams regularly, zone is not going to affect him the way it's played in the NBA. No handchecking helps his case. Without the ability to hand check and push him off angle, no one's staying in front of MJ consistently. The rules are simply easier now than they were in the 90s for slashing wing players. 50ppg if he tried for it.

Disagree. While they had harder fouls in that era, the defense is better now. The lanes were wide open then compared to now.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:33 PM
I disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% TS, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(Numbers from Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).

and that pace would be above league average now. We are also seeing a drop in FTA/FGA ratio. Jordan would still score in the 30's, but he isn't approaching 40 a night, let alone 50. He would still be the best scorer in the game pretty easily.

Longhornfan1234
07-24-2013, 01:34 PM
LOL...MJ was going against tooth pick Reggie Miller and underperforming Drexler.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:35 PM
Lmaaooo. So there's a big difference between 40.0 and 39.3 mins? The mins played have zero correlation to when Jordan started winning championships. He started winning because the players around him grew a lot better, especially Pippen coming into his own.

did you completely blow over the rest of his post?

boboo73
07-24-2013, 01:39 PM
Disagree. While they had harder fouls in that era, the defense is better now. The lanes were wide open then compared to now.

Lanes didnt look to open in the highlight reel....maybe you should watch it again.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 01:41 PM
Lanes didnt look to open in the highlight reel....maybe you should watch it again.they weren't open by any means, people just say that kinda garbage to try & diminish MJ. also the paint was protected by the best era of bigmen ever in the history of the game in his era, that's all

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Lanes didnt look to open in the highlight reel....maybe you should watch it again.

Highlight reels? Nah, I actually watched that era. Know what I saw? No zone defense, breakneck pace compared to today, hence, open lanes. More fouls calls. Do you know how those happen? Undisciplined defense. Big men not paying attention, and then reacting to a guard coming down the pipe when it's too late.


they weren't open by any means, people just say that kinda garbage to try & diminish MJ. also the paint was protected by the best era of bigmen ever in the history of the game in his era, that's all

Yet, I have said twice now that he would be just as dominant in today's game. Defenses are better now. The game is slower, allowing defense time to set up. Specialists, both on the sidelines, and the floor, on that end. Advanced metric scouting (don't tell me you haven't heard Battier for instance comment on how he studies his opponents and knows where their low percentages are, which way to send them, etc), and the development of defense becoming as big a part as offense now, unlike the 80's, and much of the 90's.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 01:47 PM
LOL...MJ was going against tooth pick Reggie Miller and underperforming Drexler.yea 2 HOF bums, sure

funny Reggie's last year 2005 he was still lighting guys up & he was like 40 years old, no prime left whatsoever. him in his prime now, lol, he'd score a lot more ppg than he did in the 90s

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:48 PM
the handcheck is overrated when discussing an aggressive player. Many offensive players liked it. If forced gambling and crowding by the defender, so the offensive player could then handcheck right back as he went by. It worked on a lot of perimeter players, but to someone like Jordan, he just swiped you away.

Mataro41
07-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Jordan put up some good numbers as a wizard what makes you think he cant hang today

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Wade gets to the lane like crazy, especially in his prime (he can't really shoot a lick), zone didn't slow him down, & he's not nearly as skilled at driving & slashing as MJ was, & doesn't have half the moves & smarts to get by players(including the best ball fake of all time, & a jumper you had to fear). MJ would get to the basket no problem now, in fact much easier without handchecking, & defensive 3 secs

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 01:54 PM
Jordan put up some good numbers as a wizard what makes you think he cant hang todayyea, after 3 years off rusty as all hell, & at ages 39 & 40 no prime left in him whatsoever, he still wasn't held under 20 ppg, lol.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;26749124]Highlight reels? Nah, I actually watched that era. Know what I saw? No zone defense, breakneck pace compared to today, hence, open lanes. More fouls calls. Do you know how those happen? Undisciplined defense. Big men not paying attention, and then reacting to a guard coming down the pipe when it's too late.

I watched that era too. The reel (which started the message board) is not emphasizing how Jordan got all of his points, but rather those specific points, at the rim, with several defenders in the way. I guess you are missing the point of the thread.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 01:57 PM
I watched that era too. The reel (which started the message board) is not emphasizing how Jordan got all of his points, but rather those specific points, at the rim, with several defenders in the way. I guess you are missing the point of the thread.

Not at all. Jordan can score in traffic. He would today. But most can't which is why offensive efficiency is down, defensive efficiency is up.

But to act like Jordan could average 40 a game today is being an absolute homer/or MJ protector, and he is my favorite player of all time.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:04 PM
Think you missed the point. Players today do not play as many minutes, the article (which I've fixed the link on) is about the value of limiting minutes in the regular season. The point was Jordan's minutes per game would be considered an outlier in today's game and if he was on a competitive team his coach would be questioned for overworking him like Tom Thibodeau is with Luol Deng and the Bulls.

Some players need more rest, some don't. Some can go 40 mpg and still win ships. What's ur point?

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 02:05 PM
Not at all. Jordan can score in traffic. He would today. But most can't which is why offensive efficiency is down, defensive efficiency is up.

But to act like Jordan could average 40 a game today is being an absolute homer/or MJ protector, and he is my favorite player of all time.I don't think you're giving MJ enough credit if he's your fav all time. just think, he scored 37.1 ppg at his highest (no one else around then even came close to that, nowhere near, so it wasn't like it was easy & just anyone could do it. highest ppg in the past 50 years). to say he couldn't score 2.9 more ppg now for at least 1 season if he tried, means you don't know Jordan very well. the new rules were made for 1 on 1 players to score easier

I don't think he could score 50 ppg now or anything, but 40-42 ppg would be possible for sure, if he wanted it

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 02:05 PM
Lanes didnt look to open in the highlight reel....maybe you should watch it again.The popular defensive coaching philosophy is flooding the ball-side box. When the ball is on one side of the court, an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. Previous to the zone rule, that was not legal. Driving lanes are tighter, more defenders have more ability to get hands in faces and it's more difficult to get to the spot you want on the floor.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 02:06 PM
Not at all. Jordan can score in traffic. He would today. But most can't which is why offensive efficiency is down, defensive efficiency is up.

But to act like Jordan could average 40 a game today is being an absolute homer/or MJ protector, and he is my favorite player of all time.

If he could average 35 PPG its not far fetched to think he couldnt get 40. Durant/Kobe/Melo average near 30 and their PER is not even close to Jordan's.

I dont think it would be as easy as some people are stating, but great players exploit any system and as another poster pointed out, a younger Wade was able to get to drive to the hoop quite often with these modern defenses. Wade does not have nearly the same shooting ability as Jordan.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 02:12 PM
The popular defensive coaching philosophy is flooding the ball-side box. When the ball is on one side of the court, an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. Previous to the zone rule, that was not legal. Driving lanes are tighter, more defenders have more ability to get hands in faces and it's more difficult to get to the spot you want on the floor.they were doing that even without zone D. hidden zone. refs didn;t wanna call a 100 illegal defenses a game, so a lot of hidden zone wasn't called. as long as you were somewhat close to your man, they'd let you drift off quite a bit though. the knicks for example used a lot of spacing/hidden zone stuff. incredible spacing. all the time guys trying to drive would be swarmed

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:14 PM
Disagree. While they had harder fouls in that era, the defense is better now. The lanes were wide open then compared to now.

How is defense better when u can't use two hands and aren't allowed the kind of physical contact u were back then? There is no one outside of Lebron that played Pippen-like defense in today's game. Defense is subjective, rules and officiating has a lot to do with how u can play defense. IMO, there is no team in today's NBA that play the type of defense of Riley's Knicks or Jodans bulls. Not even close dude.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 02:20 PM
Some players need more rest, some don't. Some can go 40 mpg and still win ships. What's ur point?My point was teams, especially competitive teams, do not play their star players as much. :eyebrow: If you read the rest of the post it was about a variety of factors leading to a situation where Jordan be a serious outlier in terms of shots taken even compared to Kobe or Melo. It's logical to assume he'd take less shots because that's the trend in the league; less shots would make it harder to make more shots.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:20 PM
Lanes didnt look to open in the highlight reel....maybe you should watch it again.


Lol Amen. He wasn't watching NBA back then because Jordan clearly went above, around, and through people. Even Daleys pistons had to formulate the infamous Jordan's Rules to try and stop Mike. Ppl act like players moved to the side and let Jordan fly down the lane lol

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:26 PM
Highlight reels? Nah, I actually watched that era. Know what I saw? No zone defense, breakneck pace compared to today, hence, open lanes. More fouls calls. Do you know how those happen? Undisciplined defense. Big men not paying attention, and then reacting to a guard coming down the pipe when it's too late.



Yet, I have said twice now that he would be just as dominant in today's game. Defenses are better now. The game is slower, allowing defense time to set up. Specialists, both on the sidelines, and the floor, on that end. Advanced metric scouting (don't tell me you haven't heard Battier for instance comment on how he studies his opponents and knows where their low percentages are, which way to send them, etc), and the development of defense becoming as big a part as offense now, unlike the 80's, and much of the 90's.

Lmaoooo so why is the best defensive teams are not of this era??? No team in this league matches Jordan's Bulls or Riley Knicks defensively !! Not even close!! Even Birds Celtics played better defense than 95% of today's teams.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:32 PM
The popular defensive coaching philosophy is flooding the ball-side box. When the ball is on one side of the court, an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. Previous to the zone rule, that was not legal. Driving lanes are tighter, more defenders have more ability to get hands in faces and it's more difficult to get to the spot you want on the floor.

Huh?? This isn't nothing new bro. I mean seriously, u killing me. What do u think Chuck Daleys Jordan Rules were? I suggest u go google it and u will find out a old pistons team played that exact same defense a long time ago bro. The NBA didn't just start 4 years ago dude. U guys act like teams just started playing defense. Lmaaooo

boboo73
07-24-2013, 02:33 PM
My point was teams, especially competitive teams, do not play their star players as much. :eyebrow: If you read the rest of the post it was about a variety of factors leading to a situation where Jordan be a serious outlier in terms of shots taken even compared to Kobe or Melo. It's logical to assume he'd take less shots because that's the trend in the league; less shots would make it harder to make more shots.

I dont know if that is the "logical" assumption. I dont think Melo is thinking "well Kobe only took 1450 shots last year so I better stay in line with that trend." If players really are thinking about the number of shots they are taking in comparison to other players in the league at that time then I apologize for incorrectly assuming, but I just find that far fetched.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 02:36 PM
People try to make WAY too much about the physical changes of the game. Jordan played against some of these players today.

The human body has not physically crossed a threshold so drastically different in the last 15 years, even 20. We aren't talking about Babe Ruth in the MLB today. A very solid amount of players are every bit on par athletically.

It's such an overblown notion.


I agree. Someone around 35 wouldn't dare make those claims because they simply know better. And they also act like Jordan's era is so different than today, it is but it's not. For example, Kobe played in Jordan era, so did Duncan. Jordan's era wasn't that long ago. The rules have changed the game but I don't think there's this major difference in athleticsm. Jermaine O Neal and VC is close to Jordan's era as well. The game is played differently but I think it's easier now with all the rules.


And I also feel players was even more skilled back then. Look at the lack of big men. We have big men but they are simply not as skilled with their footwork and fundamentals. Back then u could draft a player at the mid to end of the first round and he could produce something the 1st year. Now u draft a player in that draft slot and he's not productive until year 2 if ur lucky. I remember when the bulls drafted Bj Armstrong, he was able to play and he had solid PG fundamentals, now these players have to go through the summer leaugue a few times before u know who they are. I'm not talking lotto pics but guys drafted 18 or so. It's just different era. The athleticsm is the about same IMO but the fundamentals are definitely a step down. I'm a bulls fan but a guy like Noah isn't a star in Jordan's time. Now I see ppl claiming he's the 2nd or 3rd best center in the league.



they weren't open by any means, people just say that kinda garbage to try & diminish MJ. also the paint was protected by the best era of bigmen ever in the history of the game in his era, that's all


Jordan put up some good numbers as a wizard what makes you think he cant hang today


How is defense better when u can't use two hands and aren't allowed the kind of physical contact u were back then? There is no one outside of Lebron that played Pippen-like defense in today's game. Defense is subjective, rules and officiating has a lot to do with how u can play defense. IMO, there is no team in today's NBA that play the type of defense of Riley's Knicks or Jodans bulls. Not even close dude.

The correct postings in this thread^

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:42 PM
My point was teams, especially competitive teams, do not play their star players as much. :eyebrow: If you read the rest of the post it was about a variety of factors leading to a situation where Jordan be a serious outlier in terms of shots taken even compared to Kobe or Melo. It's logical to assume he'd take less shots because that's the trend in the league; less shots would make it harder to make more shots.

You can't assume what someone of THAT ability wouldn't do. It's like assuming if I have 800 hp that I wouldn't max it in a race. If I got those horses I'm burning u up!!! If you are Jordan and knowing no one could stop u, u are doing what u want. Correct? You can't make those claims when it comes to a guy like MJ. A guy like Jordan is doing what he wants when he wants just like he did.

If u know no one can stop You u are not shooting less dude.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 02:44 PM
they weren't open by any means, people just say that kinda garbage to try & diminish MJ. also the paint was protected by the best era of bigmen ever in the history of the game in his era, that's allAt what point was anyone trying to diminish MJ? My quote was: "I'm certain Jordan would be destined to be great in any era because of his natural athleticism combined with an incredible work ethic and determination. I'm just saying the game changed." And I doubt anyone would argue that.

The notion that MJ would walk on the court and average 50 points a game today is ridiculous. I think today's defenses are better at preventing penetration because of rule changes; you want to disagree and say hand checking is a bigger deal than legalizing zone defense completely? That's fine. But the reality is:

1.) Star players play less minutes.
2.) The game is a slower pace.
3.) 1 and 2 mean a lot less shots.
4.) Defenses are tuned to prevent penetration.
5.) Top scorers are able to shoot the three and Jordan couldn't.
6.) 4 and 5 means there are lower ratio of free throws to field goal attempts.

Maybe he'd learn to shoot decently from outside faster. I have no idea, but if you just transplant him into today then it's that the game has changed and it's difficult to imagine Jordan to score 40 in a season, much less 50. Is the NBA somehow become so bad he can now shoot 65%-70%? Statistically, it would be incredible for him to score 37.1. This is just like the claim that he'd be able to score 100 in a game. (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/20458/taking-air-out-of-mjs-100-point-claim)

It doesn't mean he's "diminished". Scoring is great, but just scoring doesn't make one great.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 02:46 PM
Huh?? This isn't nothing new bro. I mean seriously, u killing me. What do u think Chuck Daleys Jordan Rules were? I suggest u go google it and u will find out a old pistons team played that exact same defense a long time ago bro. The NBA didn't just start 4 years ago dude. U guys act like teams just started playing defense. Lmaaooono joke, people don't know their history. defense was getting so good in the mid-late 90s that they had to change the rules to make scoring easier. SGs/wing players benifited the most from it. 6 were able to avg 30 ppg or more, Kobe, Wade, TMac, LeBron, Iverson, & Durant. just 3 wing players could scored 30ppg against the handchecking defenses of MJ's era. MJ, Wilkins, & Bernard King. Stackhouse scored 29.8 ppg in 2001, the year handchecking was taken out. think he could have scored that much in the 90s? I sure don't. Kobe's avgs skyrocketed too once the rules changed(not even 20 ppg in the 90s). tmac as well

Dade County
07-24-2013, 02:50 PM
Jordan would still dominate in todays game BUT, he wouldn't have it soooo easy.

I mean, everyone should no by now, that today's players are more athletic, from top to bottom, compared with some of the non-athletic players we all SEE in that video that the OP put up.

And for the people that say that Jordan will rack up foul calls in todays game, yes he would, but he would get the same foul calls as any other super star player ( Wade, Lbj, KD...ect); and why I say that is because Jordan is the creator of the super star treatment foul call; so every time a fan got mad, when Kobe or whoever went to the line for no damn reason, blame MJ.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 02:51 PM
You can't assume what someone of THAT ability wouldn't do. It's like assuming if I have 800 hp that I wouldn't max it in a race. If I got those horses I'm burning u up!!! If you are Jordan and knowing no one could stop u, u are doing what u want. Correct? You can't make those claims when it comes to a guy like MJ. A guy like Jordan is doing what he wants when he wants just like he did.

If u know no one can stop You u are not shooting less dude.You're going to shoot less if you're not on the floor as much. You're going to shoot less if there less possessions in a game.

Dade County
07-24-2013, 02:53 PM
I wish sports science did a episode on this, and collected all the data of the 80's & early 90's players... And compared them to today's players, from top to bottom.

It would be a very, very, very, big difference in athleticism, speed...etc

boboo73
07-24-2013, 02:54 PM
At what point was anyone trying to diminish MJ? My quote was: "I'm certain Jordan would be destined to be great in any era because of his natural athleticism combined with an incredible work ethic and determination. I'm just saying the game changed." And I doubt anyone would argue that.

The notion that MJ would walk on the court and average 50 points a game today is ridiculous. I think today's defenses are better at preventing penetration because of rule changes; you want to disagree and say hand checking is a bigger deal than legalizing zone defense completely? That's fine. But the reality is:

1.) Star players play less minutes.
2.) The game is a slower pace.
3.) 1 and 2 mean a lot less shots.
4.) Defenses are tuned to prevent penetration.
5.) Top scorers are able to shoot the three and Jordan couldn't.
6.) 4 and 5 means there are lower ratio of free throws to field goal attempts.

Maybe he'd learn to shoot decently from outside faster. I have no idea, but if you just transplant him into today then it's that the game has changed and it's difficult to imagine Jordan to score 40 in a season, much less 50. Is the NBA somehow become so bad he can now shoot 65%-70%? Statistically, it would be incredible for him to score 37.1. This is just like the claim that he'd be able to score 100 in a game. (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/20458/taking-air-out-of-mjs-100-point-claim)

It doesn't mean he's "diminished". Scoring is great, but just scoring doesn't make one great.

I agree he wouldnt walk on the court and average 50 a game. Your first point about less minutes is deceiving, as someone else pointed out, Deng (a 2 time all star) plays almost identical minutes to what Jordan played.

Ask the Heat about their regular season transition game before we assume that the entire league plays a slower pace.

Point 4, as someone else pointed out, defenses have played this way for years.

92-93, 94-95, 96-97, 97-97 Jordan shot the three ball rather well. Lebron is a clear star in this league and shoots a similar average.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 02:55 PM
I wish sports science did a episode on this, and collected all the data of the 80's & early 90's players... And compared them to today's players, from top to bottom.

It would be a very, very, very, big difference in athleticism, speed...etc

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So you wish that someone compiled this information, but somehow you already know there is a huge difference in athleticism....logical post!

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:55 PM
no joke, people don't know their history. defense was getting so good in the mid-late 90s that they had to change the rules to make scoring easier. SGs/wing players benifited the most from it. 6 were able to avg 30 ppg or more, Kobe, Wade, TMac, LeBron, Iverson, & Durant. just 3 wing players could scored 30ppg against the handchecking defenses of MJ's era. MJ, Wilkins, & Bernard King. Stackhouse scored 29.8 ppg in 2001, the year handchecking was taken out. think he could have scored that much in the 90s? I sure don't. Kobe's avgs skyrocketed too once the rules changed(not even 20 ppg in the 90s). tmac as well

Some obvioulsly just started watching the NBA 7 years ago so everything else before than is irrelevant. Oh, and teams just so happen to start playing defense in the 7 years they been watching to. Lol

dnl123
07-24-2013, 02:55 PM
no joke, people don't know their history. defense was getting so good in the mid-late 90s that they had to change the rules to make scoring easier. SGs/wing players benifited the most from it. 6 were able to avg 30 ppg or more, Kobe, Wade, TMac, LeBron, Iverson, & Durant. just 3 wing players could scored 30ppg against the handchecking defenses of MJ's era. MJ, Wilkins, & Bernard King. Stackhouse scored 29.8 ppg in 2001, the year handchecking was taken out. think he could have scored that much in the 90s? I sure don't. Kobe's avgs skyrocketed too once the rules changed(not even 20 ppg in the 90s). tmac as well

Tracy McGrady and Kobe were teenagers for most of their time playing in the 90's. They were still learning the game. I don't think that's a fair comparison to make that their scoring jumped because of hand checking being eliminated. I think we overstate how much the hand checking rule impacted the game. I do think it made a difference but not as drastic as you are implying. Jerry Stackhouse was a very solid NBA player and scorer for many years, he wasn't a scrub by any means. The biggest difference between the modern NBA and the old NBA in my opinion is the physicality. In the 90's you could bump people a bit and it wasn't always a foul, but now a days the game is much less physical. Plus there wasn't nearly as many lame fragrant foul calls.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 02:57 PM
Jordan would still dominate in todays game BUT, he wouldn't have it soooo easy.

I mean, everyone should no by now, that today's players are more athletic, from top to bottom, compared with some of the non-athletic players we all SEE in that video that the OP put up.

And for the people that say that Jordan will rack up foul calls in todays game, yes he would, but he would get the same foul calls as any other super star player ( Wade, Lbj, KD...ect); and why I say that is because Jordan is the creator of the super star treatment foul call; so every time a fan got mad, when Kobe or whoever went to the line for no damn reason, blame MJ.

More athletic??? How?

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 02:59 PM
I don't think Stackhouse was even close to being a scrub, I just know he wouldn't have even sniffed 29.8 ppg in the 90s (& he sure didn't)

dnl123
07-24-2013, 02:59 PM
I have to add this in as well. The guys on here that watched the 90's NBA remember that certain teams home court advantage did mean something and will appreciate this. I remember watching the Bulls at Knicks knowing before the game that it was going to be VERY physical because the Knicks were at home. Somebody here has to know what I'm talking about! Same thing with the Pacers/Knicks series, not to mention the Bulls/Pistons. In all honesty the Bulls were not as physical as most teams during their first three peat before Rodman came in.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:01 PM
You're going to shoot less if you're not on the floor as much. You're going to shoot less if there less possessions in a game.


U assume to much. Is there some rule now that says Jordan can't play 39 or 40 mpg??? Jordan is not Loul deng dude.. Just because Deng gets burned down by the end of the season doesn't hold true for MJ.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 03:03 PM
I have to add this in as well. The guys on here that watched the 90's NBA remember that certain teams home court advantage did mean something and will appreciate this. I remember watching the Bulls at Knicks knowing before the game that it was going to be VERY physical because the Knicks were at home. Somebody here has to know what I'm talking about! Same thing with the Pacers/Knicks series, not to mention the Bulls/Pistons. In all honesty the Bulls were not as physical as most teams during their first three peat before Rodman came in.

You are right about that. The Bulls crowd was a huge factor this year when they broke Miami's 27 game streak. The Bulls team got up for the game and they knew they were going to play physical. What was Lebron's reaction after the game. He complained they played him too hard.

Clearly hard physical play is not the norm in today's NBA as compared to the 80's and 90's.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I agree he wouldnt walk on the court and average 50 a game. Your first point about less minutes is deceiving, as someone else pointed out, Deng (a 2 time all star) plays almost identical minutes to what Jordan played.

Ask the Heat about their regular season transition game before we assume that the entire league plays a slower pace.

Point 4, as someone else pointed out, defenses have played this way for years.

92-93, 94-95, 96-97, 97-97 Jordan shot the three ball rather well. Lebron is a clear star in this league and shoots a similar average.Jordan always shot the 3 pointer well when he attempted enough 3s. years that he didn't shoot it much his % sucked most likely cause more of them were half court/full court heaves at the buzzer, or shot clock running out heaves. only 4 times did he shoot threes very often in a season, when he shot it 2.9 times or more his % was 35% 37% 37% 42%, so he actually could shoot the 3 fairly well. he was just smart enough to know it's a lesser % shot, & to not fall in love with it like Kobe does. it's fools gold. you live by the 3, you die by the 3. but he was pretty good at 3s when he shot enough of them

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I have to add this in as well. The guys on here that watched the 90's NBA remember that certain teams home court advantage did mean something and will appreciate this. I remember watching the Bulls at Knicks knowing before the game that it was going to be VERY physical because the Knicks were at home. Somebody here has to know what I'm talking about! Same thing with the Pacers/Knicks series, not to mention the Bulls/Pistons. In all honesty the Bulls were not as physical as most teams during their first three peat before Rodman came in.

The bulls were finesse, teams like Riley Knicks went physical because that was their edge. If they were going to beat Jordan they were going to have to beat him up. Pound him. Make the refs think a foul wasn't a foul.
Riley's philosophy was if u drive and we grab and foul Every time eventually the refs will stop calling it because its natural. And it worked. But If u weren't physical u were NOT beating MJ. Remember Barkleys Suns? They were a finesse team. A very explosive and high powered offensive team. And Jordan's bulls took that team apart like they were nothing.

sammid21
07-24-2013, 03:17 PM
You are right about that. The Bulls crowd was a huge factor this year when they broke Miami's 27 game streak. The Bulls team got up for the game and they knew they were going to play physical. What was Lebron's reaction after the game. He complained they played him too hard.

Clearly hard physical play is not the norm in today's NBA as compared to the 80's and 90's.


This, i remember seeing that game and thinking "this is 90s B-ball" and LBJ faultered. Lebron is the best in the world right now and he was too frustrated that game playing against an injured bulls team. Imagine him or any great player from this era playing the Knicks, pacers, or bulls of the 90s with that tough physical D? that game shows you the difference between today D and 80-90s D.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 03:19 PM
I have to add this in as well. The guys on here that watched the 90's NBA remember that certain teams home court advantage did mean something and will appreciate this. I remember watching the Bulls at Knicks knowing before the game that it was going to be VERY physical because the Knicks were at home. Somebody here has to know what I'm talking about! Same thing with the Pacers/Knicks series, not to mention the Bulls/Pistons. In all honesty the Bulls were not as physical as most teams during their first three peat before Rodman came in.i'd say you're right, the Bulls weren't quite as physical, but they were still really physical. in my opnion the were the best defensive team of the era, because they played shutdown D without really getting ugly & boarder line dirty like the Pistons/knicks. not many cheapshots from them, just nightmarish clean straight up defense. good lucky getting past pippen/Jordan/grant. or pippen/Jordan/rodman/harper. they were just so fundamentally great at defense, they didn't need any cheat shots

knicks/Pacers was always great to watch too

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:21 PM
Jordan always shot the 3 pointer well when he attempted enough 3s. years that he didn't shoot it much his % sucked most likely cause more of them were half court/full court heaves at the buzzer, or shot clock running out heaves. only 4 times did he shoot threes very often in a season, when he shot it 2.9 times or more his % was 35% 37% 37% 42%, so he actually could shoot the 3 fairly well. he was just smart enough to know it's a lesser % shot, & to not fall in love with it like Kobe does. it's fools gold. you live by the 3, you die by the 3. but he was pretty good at 3s when he shot enough of them

My Man U nailed it. To say Jordan isn't a 3pt shooter is hideous. I wouldn't give MJ that shot and dare him to beat me because he's going to embarrass u. Go ask Drexler how that philosophy worked out.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:23 PM
I disagree, he had 37ppg one year and 7 straight years of 30+ppg. The year he scored 37ppg, it was on the slowest paced team in the league at 95.8. The next year was actually probably better, 35ppg on 60% TS, again at the league's slowest pace of 95.5. He already played at an extremely low pace, even if the league was faster overall back then.

(Numbers from Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html), as usual).

Im well aware of MJ's stats in his environment, translate them (without changing efficiency) to todays pace and what do you get? What kind of increase in usage would you need to reach 50. I mean that sounds ridik bro. The sheer ballhoggery necessary gos beyond anything Iverson ever did. Not to mention todays defenses are meant to stagnate isolation sets.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:25 PM
Jordan put up some good numbers as a wizard what makes you think he cant hang today
They actually werent that good. He just hogged the hell out of the ball

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:28 PM
Lmaoooo so why is the best defensive teams are not of this era??? No team in this league matches Jordan's Bulls or Riley Knicks defensively !! Not even close!! Even Birds Celtics played better defense than 95% of today's teams.

Based on what?

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 03:30 PM
They actually werent that good. He just hogged the hell out of the ballnot really, Stackhouse avg more ppg than him in 2002-03, 21.5 to his 20.0 ppg. and Rip Hamilton scored 20 ppg in 01-02 to his 22.9. so he wasn't hoggin enough to keep other guys on the team from 20+ ppg. he was sharing the main scoring load

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:30 PM
This, i remember seeing that game and thinking "this is 90s B-ball" and LBJ faultered. Lebron is the best in the world right now and he was too frustrated that game playing against an injured bulls team. Imagine him or any great player from this era playing the Knicks, pacers, or bulls of the 90s with that tough physical D? that game shows you the difference between today D and 80-90s D.


Now I will say this, like Jordan, Lebron is also a great player and could do what he doing in any area. Lebron just wasn't use to that type of defense. Guys grabbing and fighting, but it's not to say he couldn't adjust at some point. Lebron's issue to me is mental. That's his only weakness IMO. If u watched his career closely, one would know that when things don't go well Lebron mentally almost checks out. You can see it in his face. He did it with the cavs, with the heat against Dallas, and again against the spurs for a moment in game 6 until they went on a run and then he perked up. But I have no doubt Lebron is still Lebron in the 90s.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:32 PM
How is defense better when u can't use two hands and aren't allowed the kind of physical contact u were back then? There is no one outside of Lebron that played Pippen-like defense in today's game. Defense is subjective, rules and officiating has a lot to do with how u can play defense. IMO, there is no team in today's NBA that play the type of defense of Riley's Knicks or Jodans bulls. Not even close dude.

Scouting, athletes and zones have made it an argument, at least.

Its not like there aren't coaches today who have agreed that defenses are more intricate today. Maybe the best defensive teams were better back then, but as awhole, its arguable IMO.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 03:35 PM
LeBron is awesome, & he would be great any era. he's not as good as MJ, but he's the best of this era for sure. 06-now i'd say, before that it was Shaq & Tim Duncan

epic game 7 for Lebron against the Spurs. seems he always has killer game 7s

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:36 PM
Based on what?

Name a team that played better defense than Jordan's Bulls or Ewings Knicks?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 03:40 PM
They actually werent that good. He just hogged the hell out of the ball

21/5/5 for a 40 year old isn't good enough for you?:laugh2:

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 03:40 PM
Name a team that played better defense than Jordan's Bulls or Ewings Knicks?

Thibodeau's Bulls

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:42 PM
Scouting, athletes and zones have made it an argument, at least.

Its not like there aren't coaches today who have agreed that defenses are more intricate today. Maybe the best defensive teams were better back then, but as awhole, its arguable IMO.

They had scouts back then to, they had athletes then to, and they had zones then to. I see ur point but nothing u see today is new.

And not specifically directed at u but teams didn't just suddenly start playing defense when u started watching NBA basketball.

Shlumpledink
07-24-2013, 03:43 PM
Derp, scoring around more than one defender = scoring against the zone. Learn more about zone defense and defense in general before you make ridiculous arguments like that. Sure Jordan would be great in any era, but to say Jordan would be the greatest of all time in any era is wishful thinking and a statement made in fandom more than in reality

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:47 PM
Thibodeau's Bulls

Lol boy u just had to be the lame chicken that fell for this debate. I was waiting on someone to take the fall and sure enough, here u come. If u think the current Bulls played better defense than Jordan's bulls u are out of ur mind. Please tell me u don't believe this?

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 03:47 PM
21/5/5 for a 40 year old isn't good enough for you?:laugh2:we may never see another 40 year old score 20ppg, I believe he's the only one that's done it. his name was still Michael Jordan at that time, but he was far far far past his prime, yet still scored 20 ppg at age 40

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:47 PM
not really, Stackhouse avg more ppg than him in 2002-03, 21.5 to his 20.0 ppg.
Thats just how sad MJ was at that stage. Stackhouse was outpacing him in the scoring department even with MJ hogging the ball to a higher degree (accounting for minutes) but yes that was his best/healthiest year. The year before he had the 7th highest usage in LEAGUE HISTORY, and he did so by being the least efficient of the bunch.

sammid21
07-24-2013, 03:48 PM
Now I will say this, like Jordan, Lebron is also a great player and could do what he doing in any area. Lebron just wasn't use to that type of defense. Guys grabbing and fighting, but it's not to say he couldn't adjust at some point. Lebron's issue to me is mental. That's his only weakness IMO. If u watched his career closely, one would know that when things don't go well Lebron mentally almost checks out. You can see it in his face. He did it with the cavs, with the heat against Dallas, and again against the spurs for a moment in game 6 until they went on a run and then he perked up. But I have no doubt Lebron is still Lebron in the 90s.

Ive said it before, he would be Dominique Wilkins (not a bad thing as he is my 2nd fav player alltime), LBJs mentality is his down fall and i would think in that era and how hyped he was, NBA players would be harder on him. Just like Kukoc got dominated against the USA team by Pip and Jordan. He wouldnt have developed as he has now, probably a slower developement. Players used to like getting inside each others heads back then and with LBJs weak mentality, he wouldnt be as dominant, but he would still be a superstar

boboo73
07-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Derp, scoring around more than one defender = scoring against the zone. Learn more about zone defense and defense in general before you make ridiculous arguments like that. Sure Jordan would be great in any era, but to say Jordan would be the greatest of all time in any era is wishful thinking and a statement made in fandom more than in reality

Thanks for providing specifics as to why no zones existed at all in Jordan's era and what the difference is between scoring THROUGH several defenders and a zone.

Typically when someone tells you to learn something, they dont actually know themselves.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:50 PM
Derp, scoring around more than one defender = scoring against the zone. Learn more about zone defense and defense in general before you make ridiculous arguments like that. Sure Jordan would be great in any era, but to say Jordan would be the greatest of all time in any era is wishful thinking and a statement made in fandom more than in reality

Can someone handle this crap please?? I got a chicken I'm about to roast real quick.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 03:52 PM
They had scouts back then to, they had athletes then to, and they had zones then to. I see ur point but nothing u see today is new.Scouting has improved. The focus on weight training has improved athleticism, not saying athleticism is the end all. Zone defense was illegal, you can say the rules were bent, but it was illegal.


I dont know if that is the "logical" assumption. I dont think Melo is thinking "well Kobe only took 1450 shots last year so I better stay in line with that trend." If players really are thinking about the number of shots they are taking in comparison to other players in the league at that time then I apologize for incorrectly assuming, but I just find that far fetched.The point was there are multiple league wide trends that contribute to high scorers today taking significantly less shots; I think it's logical to assume those environmental factors would have the same impact on Jordan.


U assume to much. Is there some rule now that says Jordan can't play 39 or 40 mpg??? Jordan is not Loul deng dude.. Just because Deng gets burned down by the end of the season doesn't hold true for MJ.I'm not saying he couldn't. I'm saying that the trend in the league is for players not to play 39 or 40 minutes, Luol Deng is an outlier and considered to be overworked. Coaches on competitive teams sit players more.


92-93, 94-95, 96-97, 97-97 Jordan shot the three ball rather well. Lebron is a clear star in this league and shoots a similar average.The point I was making was about scoring 50ppg or 40ppg or whatever. He averaged over 30ppg in only 2 of those years.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 03:53 PM
21/5/5 for a 40 year old isn't good enough for you?:laugh2:
Actually its plenty good enough for me, I loved every minute of MJ's comeback. But what do my emotions have to do with statistical assessments?


Name a team that played better defense than Jordan's Bulls or Ewings Knicks?
Well not the prime Knicks, I have them pegged as a top3-4 defense of the shot clock era. But you mentioned other teams (like Bird's) and Im wondering what you are basing this on.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 03:54 PM
Ive said it before, he would be Dominique Wilkins (not a bad thing as he is my 2nd fav player alltime), LBJs mentality is his down fall and i would think in that era and how hyped he was, NBA players would be harder on him. Just like Kukoc got dominated against the USA team by Pip and Jordan. He wouldnt have developed as he has now, probably a slower developement. Players used to like getting inside each others heads back then and with LBJs weak mentality, he wouldnt be as dominant, but he would still be a superstar

I can see ur point on this. I know against the likes of Jordan he would've been effected mentally. Lebron is at his absolute best when he know he has u sort of against the ropes, but if u can get the best of him and his team, it's like doubt creeps In. In comparison, if u start getting the best of Jordan it's like here comes a 60 pt onslaught.

boboo73
07-24-2013, 03:54 PM
Scouting has improved. The focus on weight training has improved athleticism, not saying athleticism is the end all. Zone defense was illegal, you can say the rules were bent, but it was illegal.

The point was there are multiple league wide trends that contribute to high scorers today taking significantly less shots; I think it's logical to assume those environmental factors would have the same impact on Jordan.

I'm not saying he couldn't. I'm saying that the trend in the league is for players not to play 39 or 40 minutes, Luol Deng is an outlier and considered to be overworked. Coaches on competitive teams sit players more.

The point I was making was about scoring 50ppg or 40ppg or whatever. He averaged over 30ppg in only 2 of those years.

Your last point only strengthens the case. He averaged 30ppg on good 3 point shooting and higher point totals on lesser 3 point shooting, showing stars dont need 3's to get a lot of points in a game.

Your league wide trend argument is still a realllllllll stretch.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:01 PM
They had scouts back then too
Technology has made parsing data/video so much easier. Back then you had coaches rewinding and pausing VCR's, I remember some stories of tapes getting stuck and teams being unable to prepare fully. Trust me, things are different.


and they had zones then to.
Yea but they were mostly trapping zones and required more attention to detail to avoid the illegal zone call. Its not like today where you can literally position someone on the strongside box and have him stand there for eternity, just plugging the lane. Its easier to get to the rim 1 on 1, but its also easier for teams to build a wall at the rim too. Thats why shooting has gone up, you see alot more drive and kick. Isolation has become less prevalent. Personally, I think the primary reason stud swings have gone down (in preference of PG's) is because most swings lack the vision-playmaking to make these defenses pay.

Im with the crowd that says the game isn't soo drastically different that MJ would see his impact reduced, I actually think he would be more effective, but that isn't the same as saying hes going to score more ppg. He can be more efficient, accrue more assists etc...

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 04:01 PM
Actually its plenty good enough for me, I loved every minute of MJ's comeback. But what do my emotions have to do with statistical assessments?


Well not the prime Knicks, I have them pegged as a top3-4 defense of the shot clock era. But you mentioned other teams (like Bird's) and Im wondering what you are basing this on.

Oh ok. Yeah them kincks was NASTY!! Them celtics had a very good defensive front with McHale and parish. And with bird they had 3 guys on their front line that constantly got double digs in rebounds. Dennis Johnson was good to. Ainge was pesky. They was pretty good defensively, I just threw them out there but I wouldn't use them in a debate tho. I was more so talking about Jordan's bulls or Ewings Knicks.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:03 PM
we may never see another 40 year old score 20ppg, I believe he's the only one that's done it. his name was still Michael Jordan at that time, but he was far far far past his prime, yet still scored 20 ppg at age 40

So basically, MJ at 40 = Stackhouse in his prime.

You dont get extra credit for being old either.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=Chronz;26750110]Actually its plenty good enough for me, I loved every minute of MJ's comeback. But what do my emotions have to do with statistical assessments?

Obviously not. Your sitting there trying to down grade Mjs stats at 40 freaking years old. The emo face was to point out what a terrible post you made.

TheLegend
07-24-2013, 04:05 PM
Technology has made parsing data/video so much easier. Back then you had coaches rewinding and pausing VCR's, I remember some stories of tapes getting stuck and teams being unable to prepare fully. Trust me, things are different.


Yea but they were mostly trapping zones and required more attention to detail to avoid the illegal zone call. Its not like today where you can literally position someone on the strongside box and have him stand there for eternity, just plugging the lane. Its easier to get to the rim 1 on 1, but its also easier for teams to build a wall at the rim too. Thats why shooting has gone up, you see alot more drive and kick. Isolation has become less prevalent. Personally, I think the primary reason stud swings have gone down (in preference of PG's) is because most swings lack the vision-playmaking to make these defenses pay.

Im with the crowd that says the game isn't soo drastically different that MJ would see his impact reduced, I actually think he would be more effective, but that isn't the same as saying hes going to score more ppg. He can be more efficient, accrue more assists etc...

Lmaoooo one reason defenses are better because we're not using VCRs any more. Lol to funny. Thanks man!!! Keep it up.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:10 PM
Scouting has improved. The focus on weight training has improved athleticism, not saying athleticism is the end all. Zone defense was illegal, you can say the rules were bent, but it was illegal.

The point was there are multiple league wide trends that contribute to high scorers today taking significantly less shots; I think it's logical to assume those environmental factors would have the same impact on Jordan.

I'm not saying he couldn't. I'm saying that the trend in the league is for players not to play 39 or 40 minutes, Luol Deng is an outlier and considered to be overworked. Coaches on competitive teams sit players more.

The point I was making was about scoring 50ppg or 40ppg or whatever. He averaged over 30ppg in only 2 of those years.
Grantland has touched on this theory before, minutes have gone down not only because we value mileage more, but because of the increased defensive effort. I dont think people give enough credit to the defensive workload players have nowadays. It must be exhausting playing this type of scrambling defense.


The point was there are multiple league wide trends that contribute to high scorers today taking significantly less shots; I think it's logical to assume those environmental factors would have the same impact on Jordan.

Couldn't say it any better. Nobody wants to hear that his game would have to acclimate itself in any way or even that MJ could be a better player with less shots, no, hes has to score 45-50, its almost as if they feel its the only way to ensure today's stars look like a disgrace in comparison.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:11 PM
Lmaoooo one reason defenses are better because we're not using VCRs any more. Lol to funny. Thanks man!!! Keep it up.
My mistake, I remember a story of a projector being used and it burning up the tape.

But hey, not having access to your equipment and added information that the digital age has provided is surely an irrelevant part of scouting.

LMFAO

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 04:14 PM
Your last point only strengthens the case. He averaged 30ppg on good 3 point shooting and higher point totals on lesser 3 point shooting, showing stars dont need 3's to get a lot of points in a game.We're talking about today's game, not the 1980s when teams took less than 5 3 point shots a game. In today's game, scoring perimeter players shoot the three better than Jordan did when he average 35+ppg. I can't even think of the last perimeter player to average 20 points a game and shoot worse than Jordan from 3, maybe Dwyane Wade in 2005-06?


Your league wide trend argument is still a realllllllll stretch.Seriously? This was said regarding 50ppg. Jordan took 2,279 shots in 1986-87. Leading the league this year was Kobe with 1,595. Players play in slower offenses and they play less minutes. It's going to be hard for him to take more shots. I don't know how that's even debatable.

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 04:14 PM
So basically, MJ at 40 = Stackhouse in his prime.

You dont get extra credit for being old either.yea you do, you gotta take someone's age into consideration. the dude was gone 3 years, then played at 39 & freakin 40 still scoring with ease, with no speed or hops left, prime long gone, just scoring on smarts/ fundementals. gotta give him credit for that

then he beat Kidd-Gilchrist at age 50. wtf... shouldn't be possible

BHF
07-24-2013, 04:15 PM
anyone notice the whole 8 minutes there was not one guy trying to take a charge people actually tried to block shots back then, hope that stupid rule get taken out soon its slows down the game and its dangerous when people slide under you and you are mid air.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:16 PM
Obviously not.
LOL, you dont get to tell me what I enjoy sorry.


Your sitting there trying to down grade Mjs stats at 40 freaking years old.
If you were to say his stats were great for a 40 year old, I would agree. Sadly, statistical assessment doesn't work that way. The points you score aren't worth more because you are older and rely on less efficient methods than you did in your youth.



The emo face was to point out what a terrible post you made.
Yet all you accomplished was prove how badly out of your element you are when discussing stats. Emotions have absolutely zero barring on statistical analysis so try another form of rebuttal.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:21 PM
yea you do, you gotta take someone's age into consideration.
I dont think we are having the same conversation, if you just want to compare MJ to other players with his mileage or age, then go ahead. But when I see somewhat praise stats, I compare them to the league at large.
You dont get more pts for your made shots just because youre older


the dude was gone 3 years, then played at 39 & freakin 40 still scoring with ease, with no speed or hops left, prime long gone, just scoring on smarts/ fundementals. gotta give him credit for that
LOL, if he was scoring with ease, why was he so inefficient? If you mean he had to rely on easier methods for scoring, I agree. Thats part of the problem, he simply couldn't get the down and dirty buckets he used to.




then he beat Kidd-Gilchrist at age 50. wtf... shouldn't be possible

Its amazing for his age yes. But for the NBA? Beating Kidd-Gilchrist is nothing.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
anyone notice the whole 8 minutes there was not one guy trying to take a charge people actually tried to block shots back then, hope that stupid rule get taken out soon its slows down the game and its dangerous when people slide under you and you are mid air.
What stupid rule? The lack of players willing to absorb punishment defensively doesn't sound like the kind of defense I want to see.

RiLoc
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
Lmaoooo one reason defenses are better because we're not using VCRs any more. Lol to funny. Thanks man!!! Keep it up.It's way more than VCRs; things like player tracking and statistical analytics are large advances forward. The player movement tracking is really awesome: Grantland story (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9068903/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution).

hidalgo
07-24-2013, 04:23 PM
anyone notice the whole 8 minutes there was not one guy trying to take a charge people actually tried to block shots back then, hope that stupid rule get taken out soon its slows down the game and its dangerous when people slide under you and you are mid air.i'm with you, that stupid run up in front of the circle real quick to draw a charge crap has gotta go. it's cheap & they're usually still movin a tad when the offense guy hits them. weak. and it is a tad dangerous too. it was so much better when that happened way less. those 8 mins are beautiful wthout that crap

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:24 PM
yea you do, you gotta take someone's age into consideration. the dude was gone 3 years, then played at 39 & freakin 40 still scoring with ease, with no speed or hops left, prime long gone, just scoring on smarts/ fundementals. gotta give him credit for that

then he beat Kidd-Gilchrist at age 50. wtf... shouldn't be possible

Good to see you drop the hogging argument tho.

smiddy012
07-24-2013, 04:25 PM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.

Lol

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:36 PM
Lmaoooo so why is the best defensive teams are not of this era??? No team in this league matches Jordan's Bulls or Riley Knicks defensively !! Not even close!! Even Birds Celtics played better defense than 95% of today's teams.

Can you actually provide any evidence of your claims? Or will just you continue to spat out what you believe you saw?

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE=hidalgo;26749269]I don't think you're giving MJ enough credit if he's your fav all time.

That is what separates rational fans from irrational.


just think, he scored 37.1 ppg at his highest (no one else around then even came close to that, nowhere near, so it wasn't like it was easy & just anyone could do it. highest ppg in the past 50 years). to say he couldn't score 2.9 more ppg now for at least 1 season if he tried, means you don't know Jordan very well. the new rules were made for 1 on 1 players to score easier

If he wanted to, at the expense of his team, I am sure he could. But that was not the Michael Jordan I remember. The rules changed, because the frantic pace of the game was starting to slow, and teams that actually started to get that defense was important, were boring to watch. What happened next? The rules changed again, to allow zone defense, since taking away hand checking gave perimeter players too much of an advantage. The league rules right themselves.


I don't think he could score 50 ppg now or anything, but 40-42 ppg would be possible for sure, if he wanted it

I don't. The pace the Bulls played at would still be a high pace in today's game. Because of all the studies of limiting minutes making players more effective, Jordan's minutes drop. Back then, there were how many guys who averaged 20 a night? (answer, 29). Today? (answer, 11). Defenses now are better, period. They do more research. More specialists, like I have addressed, are both on the sideline (See Thibs), and on the floor.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:45 PM
How is defense better when u can't use two hands and aren't allowed the kind of physical contact u were back then? There is no one outside of Lebron that played Pippen-like defense in today's game. Defense is subjective, rules and officiating has a lot to do with how u can play defense. IMO, there is no team in today's NBA that play the type of defense of Riley's Knicks or Jodans bulls. Not even close dude.

Teams employ far more scouts, both on the eye test, and the stat test. The level of athletic ability is better today. The application of zone defense made lanes smaller. As I stated before, the hand checking didn't bother elite athletes, they simply pushed the defender aside.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:47 PM
Lol boy u just had to be the lame chicken that fell for this debate. I was waiting on someone to take the fall and sure enough, here u come. If u think the current Bulls played better defense than Jordan's bulls u are out of ur mind. Please tell me u don't believe this?

again, can you provide any evidence of your claims, or are you going to act like an immature teenager in every response?

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:48 PM
how is MJ scoring 50 today, with the slower pace, and teams that are excellent at stopping isolation hogs? Jordan would have to become the biggest ballhog in the history of basketball.

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Lol boy u just had to be the lame chicken that fell for this debate. I was waiting on someone to take the fall and sure enough, here u come. If u think the current Bulls played better defense than Jordan's bulls u are out of ur mind. Please tell me u don't believe this?

The way you speak as if there's no debate to be had tells me you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

BHF
07-24-2013, 04:51 PM
What stupid rule? The lack of players willing to absorb punishment defensively doesn't sound like the kind of defense I want to see.

no you are right its much better when a player slides down under you seems to be very safe :) it doesn't slow down the game at all its actually fun to watch i mean id rather see a nice charge taken than a stupid dunk, we can watch the nba top10 charges of the day on nba.com.

on a serious note maybe they shouldn't take out the rule but it definitely needs to be changed in some way

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Quick comparison

2-peat Bad Boys defensive efficiency : 104.7 per 100 possessions, and 103.5 points per 100 possessions

11-12' Bulls: 98.3 points per 100 possessions

12-13' Pacers: 99.8 points per 100 possessions

Chronz
07-24-2013, 04:56 PM
no you are right its much better when a player slides down under you seems to be very safe :) it doesn't slow down the game at all its actually fun to watch i mean id rather see a nice charge taken than a stupid dunk, we can watch the nba top10 charges of the day on nba.com

Coo. we agree then

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 05:13 PM
95.8 would still be second in the league in today's NBA. Every team Jordan played on would've been 1st or 2nd in the league in terms of pace until 1991-92 season despite him being on a relatively slow paced team.

There is more to the story than that, it's just harder to be a volume scorer today. Fist off, stars don't play as many minutes, because heavy minutes tend to hurt your chances at a title. Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35752/heavy-minutes-hurt-title-chances

1986-87 Jordan 40.0 minutes per game.
1992-93 Jordan 39.3 minutes per game.
2012-13 Luol Deng led league with 38.7.

I think we've established he'd likely be playing at a slower pace and less minutes. What about percentage of team shots, here are the usage rates and shot attempts, compared to high scorers now:

86-87 Jordan 2279 shot attempts 38.3% usage
92-93 Jordan 2003 shot attempts 34.7% usage

2012-13 points leaders:
12-13 Durant 1433 shot attempts 29.8%
12-13 Carmelo 1489 shot attempts 35.6% usage
12-13 Kobe 1595 shot attempts 31.9% usage
12-13 LeBron 1354 shot attempts 30.2% usage

Seems like a combination of factors would ultimately lead him to take significantly less shots. I just don't think it's reasonable to think he'd find a way to take 400-800 more shots than players considered hero hogballers like Kobe & Melo.

I just don't see how he'd get to 50PPG, unless he was shooting in the mid-60% range.

No hand checking would be fantastic for him, but I think it would be hard on Jordan when modern ball side flooding tightened the lanes and to make it worse Jordan didn't have a great 3 point shot to keep defenders honest. In fact, the only player in the NBA this season that averaged 20 points per game while shooting as badly on 3 point shots as Michael Jordan did in 1986-87 is LaMarcus Aldridge. I just don't think his shooting percentage would be a lot higher than it was.

It's not about him as much as it is about the game has changed and 20 point scorers as a whole have went down over the years.

Number of players averaging over 20PPG:
1986-87: 29
1992-93: 21
2012-13: 11

And to clarify, I'm certain Jordan would be destined to be great in any era because of his natural athleticism combined with an incredible work ethic and determination. I'm just saying the game changed.

In 2009 Monta Ellis averaged 41mpg, and in 2010 he averaged 40mpg, and Rudy Gay 39.9. In 2011 Luol Deng managed 39.4mpg, and Kevin Love 39mpg. The modern era of basketball is not preventing players from playing more minutes.

The league's highest usage is consistently around 35%-36% for the last several years, from the likes of Monta, Kobe, and Melo. Only Kobe lays a claim to being anywhere close to Jordan's level. So why is it unbelievable that MJ could have a usage around 38-40% now? By most accounts, the league is easier for slashing wing players to score now, so if it was in his team's best interests to have him score that much then, it would only be more so now. Far less able players were able to lead the league in usage.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 05:16 PM
how is MJ scoring 50 today, with the slower pace, and teams that are excellent at stopping isolation hogs? Jordan would have to become the biggest ballhog in the history of basketball.

Between him and Chamberlain....

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 05:17 PM
Teams employ far more scouts, both on the eye test, and the stat test. The level of athletic ability is better today. The application of zone defense made lanes smaller. As I stated before, the hand checking didn't bother elite athletes, they simply pushed the defender aside.

I contend zone wouldn't be substantially different for Jordan. If he had the ball within 20ft of the basket, he was triple teamed anyway.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 05:26 PM
[QUOTE]
I don't. The pace the Bulls played at would still be a high pace in today's game.

But it is still a POSSIBLE pace in today's game.


Because of all the studies of limiting minutes making players more effective, Jordan's minutes drop

Putting it in perspective, the Bulls were not a good team when Jordan scored 37.1ppg. They went 40-42 that year. So any limiting factors we're placing on him (optimal mpg, ballhogging, etc) implies that he's trying to win a championship and will do what gives his team the best chance to win. That's not what he was doing that year, he was looking to score, score, score.

No handchecking, restricted circle, teams already zoned him, touch fouls for star players, it's not hard to imagine him getting 50ppg in 2013.

IndyRealist
07-24-2013, 05:27 PM
It's funny. This is the first thread I've ever posted that went past 2 pages.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 05:28 PM
Between him and Chamberlain....

translate a pace in the mid 120's, at 47.6 mpg, and Chamberlain's scoring numbers don't like anything like they did in his per game averages.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 05:29 PM
I contend zone wouldn't be substantially different for Jordan. If he had the ball within 20ft of the basket, he was triple teamed anyway.

Disagree. Maybe in remote situations, but nobody triple teams anyone 20 feet from the rim dude.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 05:32 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;26750573]

But it is still a POSSIBLE pace in today's game.



Putting it in perspective, the Bulls were not a good team when Jordan scored 37.1ppg. They went 40-42 that year. So any limiting factors we're placing on him (optimal mpg, ballhogging, etc) implies that he's trying to win a championship and will do what gives his team the best chance to win. That's not what he was doing that year, he was looking to score, score, score.

No handchecking, restricted circle, teams already zoned him, touch fouls for star players, it's not hard to imagine him getting 50ppg in 2013.

It is impossible to imagine him getting 50 ppg today. That would be a usage never seen, and taking 2 shots a minute, while being the entire defensive focus. Account that today's defenses are exponentially better at suffocating isolation players, and there is no way a player can approach that number.

AIRMAR72
07-24-2013, 05:55 PM
No one thinks he couldn't score against the zone, or under any other circumstances. The argument is, would he still be the "best ever" playing in the league today.

Between the zone, no hand-checking, far more athletic players, and the CBA...

I say he'd score a ton of points, win a few awards, and championships. But he's not beating out Lebron for MVPs.
look kid you talking rubbish NOBODY in todays NBA could guard mike(THE BLUEPRINT) mike was illmatic the video here on PSD showing his layups was routine we used to called that the air reverse NOBODY till this day do it like mike he did it with grace and style the man was automatic when it comes to layup I like bron but I dout he could do jordan for MVP and scottie Would shut lebron down but bron IQ for is better than scottie...go buy a time machine youngster

Knick bag
07-24-2013, 06:15 PM
Anyone who thinks MJ would not dominate in the league today is a kid who never saw him play except on commercials. The NBA during that time was a GROWN MANs league. Defenses would simply beat you up in the paint & on the perimeter. MJ would have a much easier time scoring at will in a "soft as a baby's butt " league that we have now. He played every aspect of the game exceptionally well and every time critics said Jordan couldn't do something, he came back the next season and crushed them. Most of all he dominated the competetion "Mentally " as well. Teams lost games/series to Jordan's Bulls not only because Jordan's Bulls were better, but also because of an overwhelming feeling that they couldn't beat them. NO player/team has that effect on other teams in the league today. ........ And I'm a die-hard Knicks fan that HATED MJ!!! Much respect tho.

kblo247
07-24-2013, 06:17 PM
Zone doesn't take away those mitts for fn hands.

AIRMAR72
07-24-2013, 06:18 PM
TRUE! futhermore old george foreman came back and destroy modernday younger boxers knocking them out with one blow from a jab like he used do fighting in ali era

Lo Porto
07-24-2013, 06:22 PM
OMG with the MJ idol worship AGAIN.

Nobody was really any good at defending guys like Jordan in Jordan's day because Jordan was the first guy of his kind. In today's game, EVERY wing is taught do defend guys like Jordan. He wouldn't be guarded by guys like Hornacek and Craig Ehlo like he was in his time. In today's game, those guys are specialists. In Jordan's day, they were starters. Athleticism is light years ahead now. That would get in Jordan's way.

Jordan would be great in today's game, but he wouldn't dominate.

Lo Porto
07-24-2013, 06:24 PM
Anyone who thinks MJ would not dominate in the league today is a kid who never saw him play except on commercials. The NBA during that time was a GROWN MANs league. Defenses would simply beat you up in the paint & on the perimeter. MJ would have a much easier time scoring at will in a "soft as a baby's butt " league that we have now. He played every aspect of the game exceptionally well and every time critics said Jordan couldn't do something, he came back the next season and crushed them. Most of all he dominated the competetion "Mentally " as well. Teams lost games/series to Jordan's Bulls not only because Jordan's Bulls were better, but also because of an overwhelming feeling that they couldn't beat them. NO player/team has that effect on other teams in the league today. ........ And I'm a die-hard Knicks fan that HATED MJ!!! Much respect tho.


Whatever. The league was more physical in the 90's. You're absolutely right. You could be physical with everybody but Michael Jordan. He was babied then and he'd be babied now. The only difference between then and now is that the league was 10X slower then than it is now. One on one defending is light years better than then. The speed in rotation on the defensive end is so much better because everything doesn't rely on slow, methodical post ups.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 07:09 PM
LOL, you dont get to tell me what I enjoy sorry.


If you were to say his stats were great for a 40 year old, I would agree. Sadly, statistical assessment doesn't work that way. The points you score aren't worth more because you are older and rely on less efficient methods than you did in your youth.



Yet all you accomplished was prove how badly out of your element you are when discussing stats. Emotions have absolutely zero barring on statistical analysis so try another form of rebuttal.

Yet 21/5/5 is better than 95 percent of players in the nba. You're cute Chronz!

I can't help but laugh at how smart you think you are. From now on I'll think of you as a watered down wannabe Sheldon Cooper.

Knick bag
07-24-2013, 07:20 PM
Whatever. The league was more physical in the 90's. You're absolutely right. You could be physical with everybody but Michael Jordan. He was babied then and he'd be babied now. The only difference between then and now is that the league was 10X slower then than it is now. One on one defending is light years better than then. The speed in rotation on the defensive end is so much better because everything doesn't rely on slow, methodical post ups.

First of all Jordan cannot be guarded one on one. No player then could do it, no player now can especially the way the rules were changed to remove the "one on one" ball & allow a zone where you don't have to guard players one on one but more "team" oriented defense. This was done to speed up the game. Only a handful of teams still play man -on-man so how you can say "one on one defending is light years better" is beyond me. The speed in rotation in todays game is ineffective with a player that has a consistent jump shot from anywhere on the court and vision to pass and beat the defenses before rotation. jordan excelled at both. Second, Jordan was babied. Being a Knicks fan I hated all the "Phantom Fouls" he would get. But let's not forget it didn't start that way. He earned his way to stardom beating legendary teams in the process. He was not "anointed" before he even played 1 NBA game. The league is very different now some for the better some for the worst but Jordan is Jordan regardless.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-24-2013, 07:20 PM
Teams employ far more scouts, both on the eye test, and the stat test. The level of athletic ability is better today. The application of zone defense made lanes smaller. As I stated before, the hand checking didn't bother elite athletes, they simply pushed the defender aside.

This is your way of saying Lebron would have made hand checking irrelevant while Mj would have trouble with Zones. You and Chronz are to much.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 07:52 PM
This is your way of saying Lebron would have made hand checking irrelevant while Mj would have trouble with Zones. You and Chronz are to much.

So, now not only are you completely full of it as a Kobe homer, you are putting words in the mouths of subjective NBA fans who actually watched players most here didn't.

Gotcha.

lol, please
07-24-2013, 08:10 PM
Wait...people haven't seen Jordan play? What is this, elementary school? Or did I just wake from a 70+ year coma?

smiddy012
07-24-2013, 10:01 PM
Funny how posters complain about MJ getting babied when players like Malone & Barkley, along with Kobe and Lebron have gotten to the line plenty more throughout their careers.

smiddy012
07-24-2013, 10:04 PM
Go watch The Bad Boys employ their Jordan Rules on MJ in the playoffs, then tell me the rules of today's game would have made it easier to defend against MJ.......

king4day
07-24-2013, 11:22 PM
Huh? Please, all of Jordan's numbers from back then would be even more now!! He would dominate this league moreso now than he did before.

I was kidding. People like to say how highlights can make anyone look good.

TheNumber37
07-24-2013, 11:41 PM
he'd still be the.best ever. a huge part of that was winning.. the bulls playing today woulda won more than 72 and taken out the heat in the playoffs solidifying the greatness.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 11:22 AM
Can you actually provide any evidence of your claims? Or will just you continue to spat out what you believe you saw?

If you watched basketball back then you would know. I mean, I'm not wasting my time posting anything stats or data. If u don't already know how good Jordan's bulls or Riley's Knicks were defensively then it's a lost cause anyway. So why even bother.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 11:40 AM
Teams employ far more scouts, both on the eye test, and the stat test. The level of athletic ability is better today. The application of zone defense made lanes smaller. As I stated before, the hand checking didn't bother elite athletes, they simply pushed the defender aside.

lol far more scouts now huh? You keep track the number amount of scouts teams use now vs then? What's the "eye test"? Ability better? Hmmmmm, how? Explain that one. And I'm not sure what u mean by ability because players today is less fundamental in skil sets. Look at today's centers. How many true post-up bigs in the league vs then? Noah is a top 2 or 3 center now. In Jordans area, Noah is not even on the all star team.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 11:48 AM
how is MJ scoring 50 today, with the slower pace, and teams that are excellent at stopping isolation hogs? Jordan would have to become the biggest ballhog in the history of basketball.

What u seem to fail to realize is that the game is not that much different than it was back then. We're not talking about now vs the early 80s. It wasn't that long ago when Kobe scores 50 I believe 9 games in a row. It probably appear to be along time ago if a person is 16 years old. Lol

DetroitBadBoy
07-25-2013, 11:49 AM
This video was mesmerizing. His ball control and ability to fly make it unfair.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 11:52 AM
The way you speak as if there's no debate to be had tells me you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Lol it's no debate!, what kind of person thinks Thibs Bulls plays better defense than Jordan's bulls? Lmaaoo. To funny. That's someone that didn't see Jordan's bulls play obviously

ewing
07-25-2013, 11:54 AM
Micheal Jordan scores against other basketball players in any era from past, present, or future. I do not see why this is hard for some to understand. Do you just like to argue dumb things?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 12:00 PM
So, now not only are you completely full of it as a Kobe homer, you are putting words in the mouths of subjective NBA fans who actually watched players most here didn't.

Gotcha.

Oh stop it Hawkeye. We are aware of your subliminal attack methods. I actually can't wait until your retire as a mod so we can really see what you have to say without covering it up with ninja talk.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 12:01 PM
anyone who thinks mj would not dominate in the league today is a kid who never saw him play except on commercials. The nba during that time was a grown mans league. Defenses would simply beat you up in the paint & on the perimeter. Mj would have a much easier time scoring at will in a "soft as a baby's butt " league that we have now. He played every aspect of the game exceptionally well and every time critics said jordan couldn't do something, he came back the next season and crushed them. Most of all he dominated the competetion "mentally " as well. Teams lost games/series to jordan's bulls not only because jordan's bulls were better, but also because of an overwhelming feeling that they couldn't beat them. No player/team has that effect on other teams in the league today. ........ And i'm a die-hard knicks fan that hated mj!!! Much respect tho.

amen!!!

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 12:05 PM
OMG with the MJ idol worship AGAIN.

Nobody was really any good at defending guys like Jordan in Jordan's day because Jordan was the first guy of his kind. In today's game, EVERY wing is taught do defend guys like Jordan. He wouldn't be guarded by guys like Hornacek and Craig Ehlo like he was in his time. In today's game, those guys are specialists. In Jordan's day, they were starters. Athleticism is light years ahead now. That would get in Jordan's way.

Jordan would be great in today's game, but he wouldn't dominate.

Ouch!!! Wow! My GOD! I knew we had some questionable characters on the site but this one takes the cake.

raiddalake
07-25-2013, 12:07 PM
35

valade16
07-25-2013, 12:08 PM
I happened to watch the first half of the 1992 Dream Team movie/biography on NBA TV last night. They showed some highlights of Jordan vs the Pistons in the late 80s when they used the "Jordan Rules".

Simply put: every single foul I saw the Pistons commit against Jordan would've been a Flagrant today. Further, most of them would've resulted in Isiah's rejection from the game. I saw several where he close fist swung/punched MJ and Larry.

It was pretty crazy just to watch considering I started watching Basketball in the mid-90s.

raiddalake
07-25-2013, 12:23 PM
I agree. Someone around 35 wouldn't dare make those claims because they simply know better. And they also act like Jordan's era is so different than today, it is but it's not. For example, Kobe played in Jordan era, so did Duncan. Jordan's era wasn't that long ago. The rules have changed the game but I don't think there's this major difference in athleticsm. Jermaine O Neal and VC is close to Jordan's era as well. The game is played differently but I think it's easier now with all the rules.


And I also feel players was even more skilled back then. Look at the lack of big men. We have big men but they are simply not as skilled with their footwork and fundamentals. Back then u could draft a player at the mid to end of the first round and he could produce something the 1st year. Now u draft a player in that draft slot and he's not productive until year 2 if ur lucky. I remember when the bulls drafted Bj Armstrong, he was able to play and he had solid PG fundamentals, now these players have to go through the summer leaugue a few times before u know who they are. I'm not talking lotto pics but guys drafted 18 or so. It's just different era. The athleticsm is the about same IMO but the fundamentals are definitely a step down. I'm a bulls fan but a guy like Noah isn't a star in Jordan's time. Now I see ppl claiming he's the 2nd or 3rd best center in the league.

So im 35 i watched Jordan win Championships in the 90 but where was he in the 80's When Magic, Isiah, and Bird were dominating. Let me tell you as an eye witness Chucking shots up ala Allen Iverson. You guys cant name a legit 6-6 defender in the 90's. Go back and find the film when Jordan was not being played by some one that was physically terrible. Who name one and be careful like i said i watched those games also. John Starks lol give me a break. Dumars played Jordan the best and he was only 6-4 the pistons would send hard doubles and rough him up. The Celtics would let him score and shut everyone else out that's why the emergence of pippen was so important. You guys make me sound like a Jordan Hater but I promise you im not he is the greatest. but the idea that no one could ever hold that guy is nuts. The game is evolving. When Doctor J was doing his thing nobody had seen that before. Wilt Chamberlin was on stoppable Kareem was agile with a great touch around the rim. So after Doc came Jordan, After Wilt came chocolate thunder then the Shaq, after Kareem came Hakeem the dream and Tim Duncan. When you see the blueprint you have a chance to evolve that is why there are so many athletic guards and forwards in the NBA.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 12:29 PM
I happened to watch the first half of the 1992 Dream Team movie/biography on NBA TV last night. They showed some highlights of Jordan vs the Pistons in the late 80s when they used the "Jordan Rules".

Simply put: every single foul I saw the Pistons commit against Jordan would've been a Flagrant today. Further, most of them would've resulted in Isiah's rejection from the game. I saw several where he close fist swung/punched MJ and Larry.

It was pretty crazy just to watch considering I started watching Basketball in the mid-90s.

Yup, Jordan would have made this league his ***** if he had the sissy rules of today. The rules are tailor made for someone like MJ. Lebron would have never get to the basket like he does today if he played in a real defensive era. Everyone lives in the now! It amazes me how much people forget as the years go by.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:42 PM
Yet 21/5/5 is better than 95 percent of players in the nba. You're cute Chronz!
Aww look, its trying to use stats ...... lmfao, sorry but you really should leave the intellectual aspects of trolling to amiloser, you talking stats doesn't fool anyone, everyone already knows your only role in the duo is to chime in with the +1's. Stick to what you do best


I can't help but laugh at how smart you think you are. From now on I'll think of you as a watered down wannabe Sheldon Cooper.
Awesome +1, +2, -3!!!!

BHF
07-25-2013, 12:43 PM
OMG with the MJ idol worship AGAIN.

Nobody was really any good at defending guys like Jordan in Jordan's day because Jordan was the first guy of his kind. In today's game, EVERY wing is taught do defend guys like Jordan. He wouldn't be guarded by guys like Hornacek and Craig Ehlo like he was in his time. In today's game, those guys are specialists. In Jordan's day, they were starters. Athleticism is light years ahead now. That would get in Jordan's way.

Jordan would be great in today's game, but he wouldn't dominate.

really? you dont think Jefferson was athletic in his prime or Marion this was the old Jordan at the age 38-40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jTqASSo4RU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuHwgo61IAhttp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J32vYgoHM1shttp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtYJC3mWo

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:45 PM
Yup, Jordan would have made this league his ***** if he had the sissy rules of today.
So is your argument that MJ would have had a harder time in the 60's-70's? Compared to those eras, the 80-90's were sissy ball.



The rules are tailor made for someone like MJ. Lebron would have never get to the basket like he does today if he played in a real defensive era. Everyone lives in the now! It amazes me how much people forget as the years go by.

LOL everyone knows you werent alive in the 90's bro stop playing

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:47 PM
really? you dont think Jefferson was athletic in his prime or Marion this was the old Jordan at the age 38-40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jTqASSo4RU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuHwgo61IAhttp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J32vYgoHM1shttp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQtYJC3mWo

You do realize MJ was EXTREMELY inefficient with the Wizards right. Why are you showing him vids of an old MJ? Would it be fair for him to show you all the horrible games MJ had because considering the stats, they will outnumber your selective sample set.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 12:50 PM
Aww look, its trying to use stats ...... lmfao, sorry but you really should leave the intellectual aspects of trolling to amiloser, you talking stats doesn't fool anyone, everyone already knows your only role in the duo is to chime in with the +1's. Stick to what you do best


Awesome +1, +2, -3!!!!


So is your argument that MJ would have had a harder time in the 60's-70's? Compared to those eras, the 80-90's were sissy ball.



LOL everyone knows you werent alive in the 90's bro stop playing

Failden Cooper strikes again.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:53 PM
This is your way of saying Lebron would have made hand checking irrelevant while Mj would have trouble with Zones. You and Chronz are to much.

LMFAO

What do I have to do with this? Im the SAME GUY who said MJ would be BETTER in this era. LOL, do you EVER have a clue of the argument at hand or do you just swing from straw to straw out of desperation ....

valade16
07-25-2013, 12:53 PM
Yup, Jordan would have made this league his ***** if he had the sissy rules of today. The rules are tailor made for someone like MJ. Lebron would have never get to the basket like he does today if he played in a real defensive era. Everyone lives in the now! It amazes me how much people forget as the years go by.

Now I think we're tipping too far in the other direction. LeBron is one of the best players to ever play the game. Dude could get to the rim in any era. Heck, with his physique he would be well suited for a more physical league...


You do realize MJ was EXTREMELY inefficient with the Wizards right. Why are you showing him vids of an old MJ? Would it be fair for him to show you all the horrible games MJ had because considering the stats, they will outnumber your selective sample set.

Being a little harsh on MJ aren't we? Yes he was inefficient, but how many 40 year olds have been more efficient than MJ was at that age?

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:53 PM
Failden Cooper strikes again.

Queen sidestep cowers away yet again

raiddalake
07-25-2013, 12:55 PM
Now I think we're tipping too far in the other direction. LeBron is one of the best players to ever play the game. Dude could get to the rim in any era. Heck, with his physique he would be well suited for a more physical league...



Being a little harsh on MJ aren't we? Yes he was inefficient, but how many 40 year olds have been more efficient than MJ was at that age?
Kareem

Chronz
07-25-2013, 12:56 PM
Being a little harsh on MJ aren't we? Yes he was inefficient, but how many 40 year olds have been more efficient than MJ was at that age?
Thats my point, you aren't showing him proof of anything by posting vids of an old MJ.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 12:57 PM
You do realize MJ was EXTREMELY inefficient with the Wizards right. Why are you showing him vids of an old MJ? Would it be fair for him to show you all the horrible games MJ had because considering the stats, they will outnumber your selective sample set.

44% for a 40 year old is beyond legit. No one else will ever replicate that. This shows you how much skill Mj possessed. Keep reaching into your bag of fail tricks.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 12:59 PM
Thats my point, you aren't showing him proof of anything by posting vids of an old MJ.

You're expecting an old man to still be a lock down defender? Lets see how your lover Lebron plays when he's 40,

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:00 PM
44% for a 40 year old is beyond legit. No one else will ever replicate that. This shows you how much skill Mj possessed. Keep reaching into your bag of fail tricks.
Your ignorance knows no bounds, who said anything about FG%?

Im talking about EFFICIENCY.

Keep grasping at them straws broski, your supply is limitless

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:01 PM
You're expecting an old man to still be a lock down defender? Lets see how your lover Lebron plays when he's 40,
Who said I was expecting him to be a lockdown defender? MO STRAWSZZZ


KEEP THEM STRAWS COMING

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=valade16;26756777]Now I think we're tipping too far in the other direction. LeBron is one of the best players to ever play the game. Dude could get to the rim in any era. Heck, with his physique he would be well suited for a more physical league...



QUOTE]

http://youtu.be/1ZpGKC62qvs
http://youtu.be/KoRCSwaRHkg
Sorry, but I fail to see how Lebron would be better in a physical era when he can't even handle playing today.

BHF
07-25-2013, 01:02 PM
You do realize MJ was EXTREMELY inefficient with the Wizards right. Why are you showing him vids of an old MJ? Would it be fair for him to show you all the horrible games MJ had because considering the stats, they will outnumber your selective sample set.

you do realize he was 40 years old? do you do anything but post negative on these forums the guy scored 22.9 pts first season and 20 pts the next season after taking a long break from basketball and you are talking about inefficiency :laugh:

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:06 PM
Your ignorance knows no bounds, who said anything about FG%?

Im talking about EFFICIENCY.

Keep grasping at them straws broski, your supply is limitless

Is Fg% not part of efficiency? Mj was not the same, but he still got the job done. Your clinging to this argument because you don't have anything else to down play Mj on, how sad! FC is on fire today.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:07 PM
you do realize he was 40 years old? do you do anything but post negative on these forums the guy scored 22.9 pts first season and 20 pts the next season after taking a long break from basketball and you are talking about inefficiency :laugh:

Chronz has nothing else to cling too, It's the only thing he has. Chronz will go to worlds end to push his silent Lebron agenda.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:08 PM
you do realize he was 40 years old? do you do anything but post negative on these forums the guy scored 22.9 pts first season and 20 pts the next season after taking a long break from basketball and you are talking about inefficiency :laugh:
I post plenty of positive things, you're just suffering from selective bias. How else would you explain the fact that you missed the part where I said MJ would be better in this league, I only question the evidence he used.

Being 40 years old doesn't exonerate inefficiency. He played great for a 40 year old, not the kind of ball thats conducive to winning but still better than any 40 year old I've seen (though it should not be forgotten that he took numerous break from basketball), funny how you mention that as a negative in your post when in reality, its what prevented the mileage from mounting on his body.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:09 PM
Chronz has nothing else to cling too, It's the only thing he has. Chronz will go to worlds end to push his silent Lebron agenda.
A +1 would have sufficed. Lemme know when you run out of straws.


LOL, hes 40, leave BRITTNEY ERR I MEAN MJ ALONE, HES 40 YEARS OLD!!! CLING TO THAT INSTEAD PLZ lmfao

5ass
07-25-2013, 01:10 PM
you do realize he was 40 years old? do you do anything but post negative on these forums the guy scored 22.9 pts first season and 20 pts the next season after taking a long break from basketball and you are talking about inefficiency :laugh:

He's looking at his production and impact as a player while ignoring all the other factors. If you want to talk about how good he was for a 40 year old then you have a point, but if we're talking about how good he was as a basketball player you dont take that into account.

5ass
07-25-2013, 01:12 PM
Is Fg% not part of efficiency? Mj was not the same, but he still got the job done. Your clinging to this argument because you don't have anything else to down play Mj on, how sad! FC is on fire today.

Have you ever heard of TS% or are you just playing dumb?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:16 PM
I post plenty of positive things, you're just suffering from selective bias. How else would you explain the fact that you missed the part where I said MJ would be better in this league, I only question the evidence he used.

Being 40 years old doesn't exonerate inefficiency. He played great for a 40 year old, not the kind of ball thats conducive to winning but still better than any 40 year old I've seen (though it should not be forgotten that he took numerous break from basketball), funny how you mention that as a negative in your post when in reality, its what prevented the mileage from mounting on his body.

He's the one suffering for selective bias???? LMFAO!!!!! Only a Lebronite would claim such things. Is your lame efficiency argument the only thing you got Mr Cooper?

mlisica19
07-25-2013, 01:16 PM
The league now has far more rules pertaining to "defense". Everything seems to be called nowadays where back in the day it was known as proper defense.

So, now the rules give more power to the attack.

Are guys more athletic? How much more athletic are we talking about. Jordan only stopped playing 10 years ago or about. He dominated the league a decade ago. What? All of a sudden everyone is faster, stronger and better? He played against some of the best of all time.

I would say guys like Barkley, Ewing, Pippen, Stockton are the best of all time and it was in one era of play. The Jordan Era.... he dominated the elite of all time. Simple as that.

I abs think he wins more MVPs than James.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:18 PM
Is Fg% not part of efficiency?
No, its a stand alone barometer that does the worst job of capturing efficiency.


Mj was not the same, but he still got the job done.
"Still got the job done"? LOL do you even remember why Washington refused to bring him back?
Were you even following the league at the time? He absolutely did not accomplish what he set out to do, he wanted to groom the younger players and help their development into winners, mostly tho, he wanted to see if he could get these into the playoffs. He failed on both accounts.


Your clinging to this argument because you don't have anything else to down play Mj on, how sad! FC is on fire today.
Why would I care about your unsubstantiated opinion? Lemme know when you have FACTS to refute my claims.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 01:22 PM
So im 35 i watched Jordan win Championships in the 90 but where was he in the 80's When Magic, Isiah, and Bird were dominating. Let me tell you as an eye witness Chucking shots up ala Allen Iverson. You guys cant name a legit 6-6 defender in the 90's. Go back and find the film when Jordan was not being played by some one that was physically terrible. Who name one and be careful like i said i watched those games also. John Starks lol give me a break. Dumars played Jordan the best and he was only 6-4 the pistons would send hard doubles and rough him up. The Celtics would let him score and shut everyone else out that's why the emergence of pippen was so important. You guys make me sound like a Jordan Hater but I promise you im not he is the greatest. but the idea that no one could ever hold that guy is nuts. The game is evolving. When Doctor J was doing his thing nobody had seen that before. Wilt Chamberlin was on stoppable Kareem was agile with a great touch around the rim. So after Doc came Jordan, After Wilt came chocolate thunder then the Shaq, after Kareem came Hakeem the dream and Tim Duncan. When you see the blueprint you have a chance to evolve that is why there are so many athletic guards and forwards in the NBA.

Fantastic post. Thank you

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:22 PM
He's the one suffering for selective bias???? LMFAO!!!!! Only a Lebronite would claim such things. Is your lame efficiency argument the only thing you got Mr Cooper?
God your so bad at insulting people, heres a clue, the degrading labeling has to be relevant to the discussion at hand. LeBron has NOTHING to do with this argument, the only one bringing him up is you (shocker).

Ill take efficiency aka factual arguments over your straws so why would I have to offer anything else in the face of such pathetic rebuttals?

Again, Ill copy and paste what you were unable to refute.

you're just suffering from selective bias. How else would you explain the fact that you missed the part where I said MJ would be better in this league

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:26 PM
Have you ever heard of TS% or are you just playing dumb?

Hes not playing man.
In his world, the credibility of statistics and its terminology are not defined by you know.... statisticians, but by his god, am1loser.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 01:26 PM
Jordan was one of the best scorers we've ever seen, but Pippen made him a winner. MJ won one entire series without Pippen in his career. Great, great scorer.

There's nothing wrong with saying that Jordan was simply one of the best 5 players of all time and not the GOAT because no GOAT exists in basketball. I don't understand why people get so insecure and defensive when you mention that fact.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:27 PM
No, its a stand alone barometer that does the worst job of capturing efficiency.


"Still got the job done"? LOL do you even remember why Washington refused to bring him back?
Were you even following the league at the time? He absolutely did not accomplish what he set out to do, he wanted to groom the younger players and help their development into winners, mostly tho, he wanted to see if he could get these into the playoffs. He failed on both accounts.


Why would I care about your unsubstantiated opinion? Lemme know when you have FACTS to refute my claims.

Develop who??? Larry Hughes??? How could Mj get them to the playoffs if the team is filled with D leaguers?
Get real FC.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:29 PM
Jordan was one of the best scorers we've ever seen, but Pippen made him a winner. MJ won one entire series without Pippen in his career. Great, great scorer.

There's nothing wrong with saying that Jordan was simply one of the best 5 players of all time and not the GOAT because no GOAT exists in basketball. I don't understand why people get so insecure and defensive when you mention that fact.

:facepalm: Worst post so far in this thread.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 01:30 PM
:facepalm: Worst post so far in this thread.

Douchebag using facepalm ^

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:33 PM
Douchebag using facepalm ^

Your post was beyond stupid. If I were a Lebron fan I would have reported this post, but I'm not in high school like most of the rats. Keep it classy San Diego.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 01:33 PM
If you watched basketball back then you would know. I mean, I'm not wasting my time posting anything stats or data. If u don't already know how good Jordan's bulls or Riley's Knicks were defensively then it's a lost cause anyway. So why even bother.

I did watch basketball back then. I am 37. So no, you can not provide any evidence. That is all I was asking.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 01:36 PM
Your post was beyond stupid. How classy btw.

Jordan holds one record in the history of the NBA but everyone annoints him as the GOAT. The guy won one series his entire career without playing with another member of the top 50 of all time. He also had to have the best coach ever for success.

Yet there is still false idol worship over MJ. People can just realize he was good without having to say he was a god without ridicule from the likes of you. I'm have the right to an opinion.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 01:37 PM
So im 35 i watched Jordan win Championships in the 90 but where was he in the 80's When Magic, Isiah, and Bird were dominating. Let me tell you as an eye witness Chucking shots up ala Allen Iverson. You guys cant name a legit 6-6 defender in the 90's. Go back and find the film when Jordan was not being played by some one that was physically terrible. Who name one and be careful like i said i watched those games also. John Starks lol give me a break. Dumars played Jordan the best and he was only 6-4 the pistons would send hard doubles and rough him up. The Celtics would let him score and shut everyone else out that's why the emergence of pippen was so important. You guys make me sound like a Jordan Hater but I promise you im not he is the greatest. but the idea that no one could ever hold that guy is nuts. The game is evolving. When Doctor J was doing his thing nobody had seen that before. Wilt Chamberlin was on stoppable Kareem was agile with a great touch around the rim. So after Doc came Jordan, After Wilt came chocolate thunder then the Shaq, after Kareem came Hakeem the dream and Tim Duncan. When you see the blueprint you have a chance to evolve that is why there are so many athletic guards and forwards in the NBA.

U said it yourself he is the greatest, correct? Then why are u talking ?

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:38 PM
Develop who??? Larry Hughes??? How could Mj get them to the playoffs if the team is filled with D leaguers?
Get real FC.
LOL so you weren't following the NBA. Why are you acting like those were the jobs I set out for him? Get real indeed, time to face reality and stop with the strawmen. I didn't expect anything from MJ.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 01:42 PM
lol far more scouts now huh? You keep track the number amount of scouts teams use now vs then?
Wait, you are actually arguing against the heightened use of advanced scouts that were unavailable back then? Tell me, how did those scouts scour league wide per possession data from various leagues? You're the guy who thought the VCR vs a PC was a negligible difference right? LMFAO




What's the "eye test"? Ability better? Hmmmmm, how? Explain that one. And I'm not sure what u mean by ability because players today is less fundamental in skil sets. Look at today's centers. How many true post-up bigs in the league vs then? Noah is a top 2 or 3 center now. In Jordans area, Noah is not even on the all star team.
Do the same for perimeter players and you have the alternate argument. A guy like BJ Armstrong or Starks aint no All-Star.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 01:44 PM
Jordan holds one record in the history of the NBA but everyone annoints him as the GOAT. The guy won one series his entire career without playing with another member of the top 50 of all time. He also had to have the best coach ever for success.

Yet there is still false idol worship over MJ. People can just realize he was good without having to say he was a god without ridicule from the likes of you. I'm have the right to an opinion.

MJ owns one record????????????????????????????????LMFAO!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So MJ isn't Goat because he played with another great player? So what does that make Shaq, Kobe, Lebron etc? Your logic is pathetic.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 01:48 PM
Jordan was one of the best scorers we've ever seen, but Pippen made him a winner. MJ won one entire series without Pippen in his career. Great, great scorer.

There's nothing wrong with saying that Jordan was simply one of the best 5 players of all time and not the GOAT because no GOAT exists in basketball. I don't understand why people get so insecure and defensive when you mention that fact.

Oh lawd!!!! To funny.

BHF
07-25-2013, 01:51 PM
I post plenty of positive things, you're just suffering from selective bias. How else would you explain the fact that you missed the part where I said MJ would be better in this league, I only question the evidence he used.

Being 40 years old doesn't exonerate inefficiency. He played great for a 40 year old, not the kind of ball thats conducive to winning but still better than any 40 year old I've seen (though it should not be forgotten that he took numerous break from basketball), funny how you mention that as a negative in your post when in reality, its what prevented the mileage from mounting on his body.

the fact that he was doing this at the age of 40 who is to say he wouldn't be able to dominate the game today if he was in his prime? That is the point i was making because the poster i was quoting said he didn't play against athletic wing players.

this is what it feels like talking to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

effen5
07-25-2013, 02:01 PM
The league now has far more rules pertaining to "defense". Everything seems to be called nowadays where back in the day it was known as proper defense.

So, now the rules give more power to the attack.

Are guys more athletic? How much more athletic are we talking about. Jordan only stopped playing 10 years ago or about. He dominated the league a decade ago. What? All of a sudden everyone is faster, stronger and better? He played against some of the best of all time.

I would say guys like Barkley, Ewing, Pippen, Stockton are the best of all time and it was in one era of play. The Jordan Era.... he dominated the elite of all time. Simple as that.

I abs think he wins more MVPs than James.

As athletic as some of these players are, majority of the players in the league lack fundamentals. Look at players like McGee and Tyrus Thomas, all the athletism in the world but they are dumb as rocks. At least in the 80s and 90s, almost every player was fundmentally sound....still blows my mind how many freethrows Dwight Howard missed last year...

I also wanted to add that I would take Tim Duncan over 99.9999999999 percent of the players from the last decade, and he is far from being the biggest, strongest, or even the fastest.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 02:04 PM
Wait, you are actually arguing against the heightened use of advanced scouts that were unavailable back then? Tell me, how did those scouts scour league wide per possession data from various leagues? You're the guy who thought the VCR vs a PC was a negligible difference right? LMFAO




Do the same for perimeter players and you have the alternate argument. A guy like BJ Armstrong or Starks aint no All-Star.

So having more data and advnced statistical data means better??? If that's the case then why do scouts say guys like Darko milicic is going to be NBA star and he ends up garbage? Thus costing the pistons a guy like melo. But thats better scouts huh? Scouts make mistakes all the time. Numbers don't give u knowledge. All these number crunching stats that u guys refer to is severely overrated because the past doesn't predict future in every situation.

To say this era is better because of scouting is a very weak argument. U can have all the advance scouting reports u want and u still can end up dead wrong

And far as the Bj armstrong and Starks comment, look I can say the same about Jrue Holiday or Loul Deng.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 02:08 PM
the fact that he was doing this at the age of 40 who is to say he wouldn't be able to dominate the game today if he was in his prime? That is the point i was making because the poster i was quoting said he didn't play against athletic wing players.

this is what it feels like talking to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Rofl!

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-25-2013, 02:10 PM
As athletic as some of these players are, majority of the players in the league lack fundamentals. Look at players like McGee and Tyrus Thomas, all the athletism in the world but they are dumb as rocks. At least in the 80s and 90s, almost every player was fundmentally sound....still blows my mind how many freethrows Dwight Howard missed last year...

I also wanted to add that I would take Tim Duncan over 99.9999999999 percent of the players from the last decade, and he is far from being the biggest, strongest, or even the fastest.

Great point.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 02:13 PM
What was the scouting report on Danny Green before the finals? No one knew he would play like that before be went cold. For a few games he was looking like finals MVP. I bet the scouting report didn't predict that did it? Now granted, he went cold but u see the point. Human nature can change at any moment. So stop trying to make it seem like that because we have this advanced data that it makes teams that much better or something.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 02:15 PM
the fact that he was doing this at the age of 40 who is to say he wouldn't be able to dominate the game today if he was in his prime? That is the point i was making because the poster i was quoting said he didn't play against athletic wing players.

this is what it feels like talking to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

Literally in tears !!!!!! Lmao

Chronz
07-25-2013, 02:17 PM
the fact that he was doing this at the age of 40 who is to say he wouldn't be able to dominate the game today if he was in his prime? That is the point i was making because the poster i was quoting said he didn't play against athletic wing players.
I know the point you were trying to make, that was never in contention. The point he made remains true however, MJ (in his prime) didn't play against the kind of length and athleticism you see today. How significant is that? I dont have a ****ing clue, surely not enough to get me to say MJ wouldn't dominate today. The era's arent so different that MJ would become a radically different impact player, different rules have advantages/disadvantages to them, Im sure MJ could adapt regardless. I personally think he would play better but there is no denying that one of those disadvantages MJ would have to deal with are the superior athletes and (IMO) better players at his own position. Showing a video of MJ past his prime dealing with those athletes and struggling with his efficiency doesn't really tell me anything.

And show me the post where someone said MJ wouldn't dominate, thats such a vague/general term that could mean anything. Its one of those meaningless expressions like "getting the job done" that doesn't directly attack the points raised.

Saying MJ never faced the caliber of athletes we have today doesn't mean he wouldn't dominate.


this is what it feels like talking to you [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
Except in this case you dont have common knowledge aka factual evidence on your side, you have an opinion.

Chronz
07-25-2013, 02:27 PM
So having more data and advnced statistical data means better???
Do you know what the word advanced implies? Of course its better, scouting has come such a long way that only a complete fool would rather work with limited supplies and outdated technology.



If that's the case then why do scouts say guys like Darko milicic is going to be NBA star and he ends up garbage?
Because busts have always, and will always exist. And scouting isn't just limited to young prospects, scouting entails alot more than that. You scout OTHER NBA TEAMS TOO. A guy like Shane Battier wouldn't have access to all the shooting reports we have nowadays back in the 80's.


To say this era is better because of scouting is a very weak argument. U can have all the advance scouting reports u want and u still can end up dead wrong

I quoted your remarks towards scouting and not the league for a reason. The fact that you were even questioning something so obvious as advancements in an area of scouting made me not care about the rest of your argument. I kept my post within that scope. Why would I care about what differences you think you see when you cant even admit that something as obvious as scouting has come a long way?



And far as the Bj armstrong and Starks comment, look I can say the same about Jrue Holiday or Loul Deng.

No, you really cant because the first 2 are clearly inferior players. If you were too look at the league wide production levels at different positions, Im sure our bigs today dont stack up (particularly centers, as you mentioned) but I have a feeling we have our advantages elsewhere. You dont think we have improved guard skills?

Chronz
07-25-2013, 02:34 PM
What was the scouting report on Danny Green before the finals? No one knew he would play like that before be went cold. For a few games he was looking like finals MVP. I bet the scouting report didn't predict that did it?
lmfao scouting reports dont predict the future, they never have. They give you a guideline to follow about that player. And the scouting report on Green surely mentioned his shooting prowess.

lmfao Im still trying to wrap my head around what you just said, are you seriously trying to argue that teams should stop making scouting reports because they dont predict the future? LMFAO cmon man, the point remains, regardless of what you think about scouting reports, THEY HAVE GOTTEN MORE ADVANCED. Whatever argument you have against their predictive power is irrelevant because of that fact.


Lets think this through logically, lets pretend you had a point. If todays scouting reports cant tell you whos going to be the MVP (lol I cant believe Im entertaining this childish point) then what makes you think scouting reports from the archaic 80's are going to be more predictive?


Now granted, he went cold but u see the point. Human nature can change at any moment. So stop trying to make it seem like that because we have this advanced data that it makes teams that much better or something.
I dont have to make it seem like anything, its common knowledge that the field has ADVANCED. Hence the term, ADVANCED.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:20 PM
What was the scouting report on Danny Green before the finals? No one knew he would play like that before be went cold. For a few games he was looking like finals MVP. I bet the scouting report didn't predict that did it? Now granted, he went cold but u see the point. Human nature can change at any moment. So stop trying to make it seem like that because we have this advanced data that it makes teams that much better or something.

His scouting report was that he led the NBA in three point percentage on open looks. He is the last man in the NBA you leave open.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02/shooting/2013/

And he went cold because everyone, over time, falls to their mean. He played way over his head, not surprising he then played well under his usual self.

72 Wins
07-25-2013, 03:39 PM
Seeing the dozens and dozens of acrobatic moves in the highlight clip makes me remember how much of an impact and influence MJ had. We used to play like that ALL the time in playground. No one was playing like that at the time.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 03:45 PM
Do you know what the word advanced implies? Of course its better, scouting has come such a long way that only a complete fool would rather work with limited supplies and outdated technology.



Because busts have always, and will always exist. And scouting isn't just limited to young prospects, scouting entails alot more than that. You scout OTHER NBA TEAMS TOO. A guy like Shane Battier wouldn't have access to all the shooting reports we have nowadays back in the 80's.


I quoted your remarks towards scouting and not the league for a reason. The fact that you were even questioning something so obvious as advancements in an area of scouting made me not care about the rest of your argument. I kept my post within that scope. Why would I care about what differences you think you see when you cant even admit that something as obvious as scouting has come a long way?


No, you really cant because the first 2 are clearly inferior players. If you were too look at the league wide production levels at different positions, Im sure our bigs today dont stack up (particularly centers, as you mentioned) but I have a feeling we have our advantages elsewhere. You dont think we have improved guard skills?

I know that u are trying to say; perimeter play is better, but how when there was guys like Jordan, Drexler, penny, magic, Isaiah, Tim hardaway, Jim Jackson, Bernard king, Dominique Wilkins, Mcgrady, grant hill, Reggie Lewis, Chris Mullen, Reggie miller, Mitch richmond. guys like harden isnt a top sg he is now, U act like what u see now is something new. Lol

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 03:50 PM
lmfao scouting reports dont predict the future, they never have. They give you a guideline to follow about that player. And the scouting report on Green surely mentioned his shooting prowess.

lmfao Im still trying to wrap my head around what you just said, are you seriously trying to argue that teams should stop making scouting reports because they dont predict the future? LMFAO cmon man, the point remains, regardless of what you think about scouting reports, THEY HAVE GOTTEN MORE ADVANCED. Whatever argument you have against their predictive power is irrelevant because of that fact.


Lets think this through logically, lets pretend you had a point. If todays scouting reports cant tell you whos going to be the MVP (lol I cant believe Im entertaining this childish point) then what makes you think scouting reports from the archaic 80's are going to be more predictive?


I dont have to make it seem like anything, its common knowledge that the field has ADVANCED. Hence the term, ADVANCED.


Never said teams shouldn't use scouting reports. All I'm saying that just because we have superior scouting data, doesn't makes teams so much better than before. You act like when Jordan was playing that teams were so ancient and couldn't scout other teams that well. Lol. I think computers and technology was relevant in the 90s bro.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:51 PM
I know that u are trying to say; perimeter play is better, but how when there was guys like Jordan, Drexler, penny, magic, Isaiah, Tim hardaway, Jim Jackson, Bernard king, Dominique Wilkins, Mcgrady, grant hill, Reggie Lewis, Chris Mullen, Reggie miller, Mitch richmond. guys like harden isnt a top sg he is now, U act like what u see now is something new. Lol

wrong. As the zone has been employed, and big men have started to become better outside players, the talent level, and perimeter play, has gotten better, as the interior play has gotten worse. Nobody is forgetting the players from yesterday, why are you trying so hard to protect them? It's like I am talking to my dad here.

"Larry Bird is the best ever"
"yeah, but dad, there is so much evidence pointing to MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem"
"I don't care what the evidence is, I am too hard headed to acknowledge that the glory days were just that, the glory days"

Dude, sports evolve. nobody is saying the GOAT wouldn't still be wrecking shop. He would in all likelihood be the best player in the game today, there is nothing to prove otherwise. But the game evolves. Defenses ARE better. We have proof. And you will have to forgive people for trusting the numbers, over your eyes.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 03:51 PM
Never said teams shouldn't use scouting reports. All I'm saying that just because we have superior scouting data, doesn't makes teams so much better than before. You act like when Jordan was playing that teams were so ancient and couldn't scout other teams that well. Lol.

They are more prepared now, and have a better understanding of a player/teams game going in. Fact.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 03:56 PM
His scouting report was that he led the NBA in three point percentage on open looks. He is the last man in the NBA you leave open.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02/shooting/2013/

And he went cold because everyone, over time, falls to their mean. He played way over his head, not surprising he then played well under his usual self.

The point was there was no data that ever suggested he was going to be on fire like be was. At one point I think he was something like 18-25 on 3s. Nobody shoots like that dude. Like u said, he was way over his head.

TheLegend
07-25-2013, 04:07 PM
wrong. As the zone has been employed, and big men have started to become better outside players, the talent level, and perimeter play, has gotten better, as the interior play has gotten worse. Nobody is forgetting the players from yesterday, why are you trying so hard to protect them? It's like I am talking to my dad here.

"Larry Bird is the best ever"
"yeah, but dad, there is so much evidence pointing to MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem"
"I don't care what the evidence is, I am too hard headed to acknowledge that the glory days were just that, the glory days"

Dude, sports evolve. nobody is saying the GOAT wouldn't still be wrecking shop. He would in all likelihood be the best player in the game today, there is nothing to prove otherwise. But the game evolves. Defenses ARE better. We have proof. And you will have to forgive people for trusting the numbers, over your eyes.

Saying perimeter play has gotten better is ur opinion. And I respectfully disagree. Like I said, there is nothing new today that wasn't done in yesteryears. I believe it's worst because players are less fundamental now and are quick to leave school early. There was a reason stern had to stop all these kids from jumping straight to the NBA. If stern allowed that to continue the game was going to ultimately suffer. Everybody can't be Lebron, Kobe, or kg. A player like josh smith is much better had he went to college IMO. Because he would've bad the fundamentals to go along with the athletic ability. U have your opinion and I have mines. And far as perimeter, there is nothing I see that wasn't done before. I see a drop off actually. And far as post play, the lack of fundamentals is most evident there.

Lo Porto
07-25-2013, 04:18 PM
Players are less skilled now without a doubt, but the athleticism is so much better. In Jordan's day, you didn't have that many freak athletes because the league demanded skill. In today's game, the league puts more value in athleticism. There are a ton of guys with Jordanesque athleticism. In his day there were maybe 5 and two were on his team.

That athleticism would get in Jordan's way. Lack of athleticism allowed mj to have such a dominant impact. Look at Durant - the guy scores so well, but he doesn't dominate games like mj did. He gets swarmed and tons of guys thrown at him. And Durant is four inches taller and can shoot the three.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:36 PM
The point was there was no data that ever suggested he was going to be on fire like be was. At one point I think he was something like 18-25 on 3s. Nobody shoots like that dude. Like u said, he was way over his head.

Scouting, no matter how advanced, can not predict a hot streak. But anyone in their right mind knows that last man on the Spurs, or the NBA, you leave open from anywhere behind the three point line is Danny Green. Why do we know that?

ADVANCED SCOUTING MEASURES.

Did you blow over the link I posted? It shows exactly what I am referring to. They didn't have those measures back in the day. They just knew, "Reggie can shoot". Der. But if you examine it more, you find the optimal areas to make him shoot, because those present you with better scenarios for misses. Which way should you force his dribble? Well, we know that now.

Hawkeye15
07-25-2013, 06:39 PM
Saying perimeter play has gotten better is ur opinion. And I respectfully disagree. Like I said, there is nothing new today that wasn't done in yesteryears. I believe it's worst because players are less fundamental now and are quick to leave school early. There was a reason stern had to stop all these kids from jumping straight to the NBA. If stern allowed that to continue the game was going to ultimately suffer. Everybody can't be Lebron, Kobe, or kg. A player like josh smith is much better had he went to college IMO. Because he would've bad the fundamentals to go along with the athletic ability. U have your opinion and I have mines. And far as perimeter, there is nothing I see that wasn't done before. I see a drop off actually. And far as post play, the lack of fundamentals is most evident there.

Right. And the difference is my opinions have facts and evidence behind it, yours have nostalgia and bias, with no merit.

At least you dropped the "LMFAOOOOOOO" to start every post now.

IKnowHoops
07-26-2013, 12:29 AM
Im 34 years old. I think there are some youngsters that don't understand how good Mike was. But this whole argument just gets me thinking. I talk to dudes that are older and they swear up and down that Rocky Marciano would of killed Mike tyson. For some reason they just can't understand the difference in athletic ability from then to now. When I look at that tape, there is one super athlete (Mike) and then everyone else. Like dudes can't even jump around him. Noone is seeking him in the air as he is gliding around. There were definately better bigs back then. But the actually people that would be guarding him are way more athletic now. When you are watching back then you think how can mike be so much more athletic than all these super athletes. Watching it now I say, dang there are no athletes out there. Now everyone is playing above the Rim. Mike would have still dominated the league. I think he scores the same.

IKnowHoops
07-26-2013, 12:39 AM
As athletic as some of these players are, majority of the players in the league lack fundamentals. Look at players like McGee and Tyrus Thomas, all the athletism in the world but they are dumb as rocks. At least in the 80s and 90s, almost every player was fundmentally sound....still blows my mind how many freethrows Dwight Howard missed last year...

I also wanted to add that I would take Tim Duncan over 99.9999999999 percent of the players from the last decade, and he is far from being the biggest, strongest, or even the fastest.

Yeah which is why he would still dominate today. He had supreme athletic ability and supreme fundamentals. There are a few guys that can match him today and Lebron is above him in that, but no one could match his fundamentals. Jordan would still be unguardable. He would have to work a little harder to get some of his shots, but he has the tools to do the work.

JNA17
07-26-2013, 01:17 AM
"Everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages." (guess the guy who said the quote for cookie)

"Players today are so much better! Their like...more athletic and stuff..."

All I know is, if Wilt Chamberlin played in today's NBA, no one would talk about Lebron being a freak physical specimen. I don't care what era he played in. Any 7'2 center that can bench 500 pounds, have an almost 8'0 wingspan, 40+ inch vertical, run almost if not as fast as the point guards of today AND have the skills of a great post up center as well as a great passing center is going to dominate in ANY ERA GUARANTEED!

faze38
07-26-2013, 01:26 AM
Some of these comments are just plane old crazy. Jordan not as dominate because of Lebron are u crazy! No one could stop Jordan without being able to hand check him or smack him to the floor. LeBron would be ringless in the Jordan era. Jordan would trash the zone. I mean the biggest weakness in the zones is the three ball and the mid-range jumpshot thats not a problem Jordan can torch you from everywhere. That attacking the rim game is only a fraction of Jordan's game! The man is no questions the greatest ever!

OceanSpray
07-26-2013, 02:57 AM
I'm sorry. Watch those highlights, 80% of them looked like no contact. Where was the defense? Great moves but a lot of them were done because they just let him slip past them.

RiceOnTheRun
07-26-2013, 04:28 AM
They had scouts back then to, they had athletes then to, and they had zones then to. I see ur point but nothing u see today is new.

And not specifically directed at u but teams didn't just suddenly start playing defense when u started watching NBA basketball.

But his point is that scouts and strategies became much better within the last decade. The Spurs used to be one of a kind with their scouting and player development, now you see their assistants and interns becoming GMs among other positions throughout the league. Reports were definitely much less in-depth back then than they are now. Before, it would be "don't let him shoot jumpers" now it's more like "make him shoot a jumper from this particular spot" and the whole Shane Battier thinking process.

To say that basketball and it's players haven't improved much would be an understatement. With advances in science and medicine, trainers have without a doubt found ways to improve the bodies and skills of players. Jordan would still be a top athlete today, but he wouldn't be as unrivaled as he was back then. He would be elite, but he'd be a totally different player.

TheLegend
07-26-2013, 11:48 AM
But his point is that scouts and strategies became much better within the last decade. The Spurs used to be one of a kind with their scouting and player development, now you see their assistants and interns becoming GMs among other positions throughout the league. Reports were definitely much less in-depth back then than they are now. Before, it would be "don't let him shoot jumpers" now it's more like "make him shoot a jumper from this particular spot" and the whole Shane Battier thinking process.

To say that basketball and it's players haven't improved much would be an understatement. With advances in science and medicine, trainers have without a doubt found ways to improve the bodies and skills of players. Jordan would still be a top athlete today, but he wouldn't be as unrivaled as he was back then. He would be elite, but he'd be a totally different player.

This is just silly, u actually believe this crap? It's amazing some of the things u kids say on this forum. So players and coaches in Jordan's time wasn't advanced to know to "not let a player shoot from this spot or that particular spot"? That's Absolutely insane!!!

To suggest Jordan would be rivaled in today's game is just hideous. Who would rivaled MJ? Harden? What a lot of you young teens dont understand is that Jordans passion, hunger, and desire was second to none. And he would be a totally different player? Huh? U must be 16? And how is skill level improved when most players lack the fundamentalist of a post game?? Lebron is 6'8" and it took him years to even want to develope a post game. And that's even though he had the size and power for it. Players today lack all kinds of skill. In Jordans era the post was all about fundamentals and skill, which is severely lacked today. That's why an old Tim Duncan can torch the heat down low because of his fundamental skill set. You guys are killing me and its amazing how uneducated u young teenagers are about the game, I'm done.

effen5
07-26-2013, 11:48 AM
I'm sorry. Watch those highlights, 80% of them looked like no contact. Where was the defense? Great moves but a lot of them were done because they just let him slip past them.

Here kid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o Here's 47 minutes of Jordan getting flagrant fouled on.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 11:51 AM
This is just silly, u actually believe this crap? It's amazing some of the things u kids say on this forum. So players and coaches in Jordan's time wasn't advanced to know to "not let a player shoot from this spot or that particular spot"? That's Absolutely insane!!!

To suggest Jordan would be rivaled in today's game is just hideous. Who would rivaled MJ? Harden? What a lot of you young teens dont understand is that Jordans passion, hunger, and desire was second to none. And he would be a totally different player? Huh? U must be 16? And how is skill level improved when most players lack the fundamentalist of a post game?? Lebron is 6'8" and it took him years to even want to develope a post game. And that's even though he had the size and power for it. Players today lack all kinds of skill. In Jordans era the post was all about fundamentals and skill, which is severely lacked today. That's why an old Tim Duncan can torch the heat down low because of his fundamental skill set. You guys are killing me and its amazing how uneducated kids like u are about the game, I'm done.

you never started to prove anything though dude. Just your eyeball views, which simply don't stack up. If you think the game stopped evolving in 1995 (clearly you do with your posts), can't help you man.

effen5
07-26-2013, 11:52 AM
I'm just going to say this. Jordan would have a field day going to the rim in this era (especially with the 3 second rule) and his fade away jumper in this era would be unguardable. I really don't know why there is a 16 page thread on this.

effen5
07-26-2013, 12:07 PM
The fact that PGs get to the rim at will now a days (Rose, Parker, Westbrook), I'd be scared to see what Jordan would do.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 12:18 PM
I'm just going to say this. Jordan would have a field day going to the rim in this era (especially with the 3 second rule) and his fade away jumper in this era would be unguardable. I really don't know why there is a 16 page thread on this.

Well, it's because Jordan, while the GOAT, is protected like a god that does no wrong on this site, and in general. I have no doubt he would dominate today, and be the best player in the game, but to act like the game hasn't evolved, is just nonsense.

valade16
07-26-2013, 12:30 PM
Well, it's because Jordan, while the GOAT, is protected like a god that does no wrong on this site, and in general. I have no doubt he would dominate today, and be the best player in the game, but to act like the game hasn't evolved, is just nonsense.

But if anything, hasn't the game evolved to make it a more slasher, wing player centric league? Wouldn't that not, if anything, help Jordan?

Also, as to this athleticism thing. I agree on average, players are more athletic than in eras past, but people are seriously over-exagerrating the extent of the athletic superiority. Simply put: evolution doesn't happen that fast.

I just watched some highlights again of David Robinson and Clyde Drexler. Those guys were every bit as athletic as the players of today. More to the point, a 40 year old Jordan could hang with the "athletic" freaks of 2002, and a 36 year old Kobe can hang with the athletic "freaks" of today. Well Kobe came in in the mid-90's, Jordan in the mid-08's. Heck, Bird and Magic were able to play exceptionally well when they were old and hobbled in the early 90's and they came from the late 70's. And KAJ was able to hang and play well in the late 80's and he came from the early 60's. And back and back it goes.

Clearly, guys who came in 15-25 years prior to their last game and were still able to not only play, but play well should disprove this idea that all the players of today are just flat out so superior athletically...

Chronz
07-26-2013, 01:13 PM
But if anything, hasn't the game evolved to make it a more slasher, wing player centric league? Wouldn't that not, if anything, help Jordan?
Agreed.

ewing
07-26-2013, 01:21 PM
But if anything, hasn't the game evolved to make it a more slasher, wing player centric league? Wouldn't that not, if anything, help Jordan?

Also, as to this athleticism thing. I agree on average, players are more athletic than in eras past, but people are seriously over-exagerrating the extent of the athletic superiority. Simply put: evolution doesn't happen that fast.

I just watched some highlights again of David Robinson and Clyde Drexler. Those guys were every bit as athletic as the players of today. More to the point, a 40 year old Jordan could hang with the "athletic" freaks of 2002, and a 36 year old Kobe can hang with the athletic "freaks" of today. Well Kobe came in in the mid-90's, Jordan in the mid-08's. Heck, Bird and Magic were able to play exceptionally well when they were old and hobbled in the early 90's and they came from the late 70's. And KAJ was able to hang and play well in the late 80's and he came from the early 60's. And back and back it goes.

Clearly, guys who came in 15-25 years prior to their last game and were still able to not only play, but play well should disprove this idea that all the players of today are just flat out so superior athletically...


I agree. the guys today are so much more athletic thing is BS. The average player is more athletic today then he was when Jordan entered the league but prime Micheal is a top shelf athlete in today's league, tomorrow league, and so on. Same for D Rob, Shawn Kemp, Nique, young grant hill, etc etc etc

RiLoc
07-26-2013, 02:36 PM
So having more data and advnced statistical data means better???Yes, it does. Statistical analytics has impacted the game.


If that's the case then why do scouts say guys like Darko milicic is going to be NBA star and he ends up garbage?The Pistons made a mistake; the difference between drafting in the 80s is that most players were 22 years old. Dwyane Wade was the only player over 19 in the top 5 of that draft. The Pistons made a serious mistake, but projecting a person's future when's 22 is a lot easier than at 19 in any walk of life.


I think computers and technology was relevant in the 90s bro.Not like it is now. Technologies like player tracking are changing the game. Being able to see on average how many feet a player puts between him, a player or how many miles a person runs in a game... It's endless and it's changing the game.


Saying perimeter play has gotten better is ur opinion. And I respectfully disagree. Like I said, there is nothing new today that wasn't done in yesteryears.Comparing players from different eras is difficult for the very reason you're denying. The game has continually changed. Just to point at an easy example, something that has majorly changed is the 3 point shot. 2012-13 teams average 20 3-point shot attempts per contest, in 1992-93 it was 8 shot attempts, in 1986-87 it was 5, in 1980-91 it was 2.



But his point is that scouts and strategies became much better within the last decade. The Spurs used to be one of a kind with their scouting and player development, now you see their assistants and interns becoming GMs among other positions throughout the league. Reports were definitely much less in-depth back then than they are now. Before, it would be "don't let him shoot jumpers" now it's more like "make him shoot a jumper from this particular spot" and the whole Shane Battier thinking process.

To say that basketball and it's players haven't improved much would be an understatement. With advances in science and medicine, trainers have without a doubt found ways to improve the bodies and skills of players. Jordan would still be a top athlete today, but he wouldn't be as unrivaled as he was back then. He would be elite, but he'd be a totally different player.

This is just silly, u actually believe this crap? It's amazing some of the things u kids say on this forum. So players and coaches in Jordan's time wasn't advanced to know to "not let a player shoot from this spot or that particular spot"? That's Absolutely insane!!!NBA organizations and medical professional that serve the professional sports have improved through experience. Scouting is better through experience, statistical analytics has come into existence, scouting databases have improved, personal trainers once rare are now common, medical procedures have improved, athletic/weight training has improved and so on... Perhaps any one of these factors is small, perhaps there are elements that didn't improve, but as a whole there has been improvement in the NBA.


I really don't know why there is a 16 page thread on this.Because some believe if high scoring Jordan of 80s was dropped into today's game he would automatically average 50 points per game.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 03:04 PM
But if anything, hasn't the game evolved to make it a more slasher, wing player centric league? Wouldn't that not, if anything, help Jordan?

Also, as to this athleticism thing. I agree on average, players are more athletic than in eras past, but people are seriously over-exagerrating the extent of the athletic superiority. Simply put: evolution doesn't happen that fast.

I just watched some highlights again of David Robinson and Clyde Drexler. Those guys were every bit as athletic as the players of today. More to the point, a 40 year old Jordan could hang with the "athletic" freaks of 2002, and a 36 year old Kobe can hang with the athletic "freaks" of today. Well Kobe came in in the mid-90's, Jordan in the mid-08's. Heck, Bird and Magic were able to play exceptionally well when they were old and hobbled in the early 90's and they came from the late 70's. And KAJ was able to hang and play well in the late 80's and he came from the early 60's. And back and back it goes.

Clearly, guys who came in 15-25 years prior to their last game and were still able to not only play, but play well should disprove this idea that all the players of today are just flat out so superior athletically...

I think the new rules would quite possibly favor Jordan.

The thing is, this thread became about more than trying to translate Jordan into today. It became about a handful of posters going nostalgia on everyone, and acting like the league was more difficult back then, and the defenses were better, which is just not true.

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 03:06 PM
I agree. the guys today are so much more athletic thing is BS. The average player is more athletic today then he was when Jordan entered the league but prime Micheal is a top shelf athlete in today's league, tomorrow league, and so on. Same for D Rob, Shawn Kemp, Nique, young grant hill, etc etc etc

and nobody has argued that Jordan, as an athlete, would STILL be superior. But you keep acting like Jordan went against the best possible defenses he could have gone against, in timeline, when that isn't the case. Though, a player like Jordan, as I stated on page 1 or 2, is going to dominate no matter what, period.

ewing
07-26-2013, 03:12 PM
and nobody has argued that Jordan, as an athlete, would STILL be superior. But you keep acting like Jordan went against the best possible defenses he could have gone against, in timeline, when that isn't the case. Though, a player like Jordan, as I stated on page 1 or 2, is going to dominate no matter what, period.

I have done nothing but compare Micheal Jordan to potential competition. When Micheal played he was the best against that competition. If Micheal played today he would be the best against this comp. The only other comment I made was that the those guys were so nonathletic line is BS and it is.

take Mr Russel for instance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

Hawkeye15
07-26-2013, 03:14 PM
I have done nothing but compare Micheal Jordan to potential competition. When Micheal played he was the best against that competition. If Micheal played today he would be the best against this comp. The only other comment I made was that the those guys were so nonathletic line is BS and it is.

take Mr Russel for instance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

whoops, I thought I was responding to someone else ewing, my b. The poster I thought I was replying to had posted about 30 posts in here just blowing off any possible chance at the defenses being better today.

The athletes now are better, league wide. But guys like Jordan, and others, you know, the great athletes of the era, would still be considered great athletes.