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Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 01:19 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings
1) James Harden
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Paul George
5) Manu Ginobili
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Manu Ginobili
4) James Harden
5) Joe Johnson
6) Monta Ellis
7) Eric Gordon
8) Paul George
9) Kevin Martin
10) Ray Allen

2011 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5) Monta Ellis
6) Kevin Martin
7) Ray Allen
8) Eric Gordon
9) Jason Terry
10) James Harden

2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 01:22 AM
mods please sticky

Kashmir13579
07-24-2013, 01:25 AM
JR Kush.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 01:55 AM
Vince Carter, do it all utility player

yungincome
07-24-2013, 02:06 AM
JR Spliff

Chacarron
07-24-2013, 02:29 AM
Tony Allen should be included in the next poll.

jimm120
07-24-2013, 02:30 AM
Klay is definitely rising. Next season will define if he'll be a top 10 SG for years to come to me.


Went with JR Smith. 6th man and pretty good defense.


Vince Carter deserves to go in the top 10 this year.

jimm120
07-24-2013, 02:31 AM
Tony Allen should be included in the next poll.

Tony's not added? wow. TC first with the no Rose thing, then the Paul George thing, then the Wilson Chandler thing...and no Tony Allen?

End of the day, Tony was in the all nba 3rd team, no matter what.

bholly
07-24-2013, 03:08 AM
Tony's not added? wow. TC first with the no Rose thing, then the Paul George thing, then the Wilson Chandler thing...and no Tony Allen?

End of the day, Tony was in the all nba 3rd team, no matter what.

?

Do you mean defensive 1st team?

5ass
07-24-2013, 03:12 AM
I'm going with Afflalo here. He was asked to do too much last season and his stats suffered as a result, but I'm 100% sure the Knicks would trade JR right now for Afflalo if they could. So would the Clippers with Crawford. So would the Nets, but thats mostly due to his Joe's contract.

Bruno
07-24-2013, 03:17 AM
tony allen mhc. he's the only all-nba team player left at the position.

SugeKnight
07-24-2013, 03:17 AM
JJ
Ellis
Klay

JLynn943
07-24-2013, 03:23 AM
Still no Tyreke? :pity: He even has a legitimate argument here after the season he had. If not here, at least top 10.

These are a joke given what players are and aren't classified at each position.

NBA-GMaster
07-24-2013, 03:54 AM
Im voting for Iguodala but he's not on the list, im going for JR..

Guppyfighter
07-24-2013, 04:49 AM
Affalo or Vince Carter

Knicks21
07-24-2013, 04:51 AM
Not Joe Johnson. Going to go Vince here over JR and Allen. Then it should be Johnson after these 3.

NYYCowboys
07-24-2013, 06:00 AM
I voted for JR Smith simply for the fact that he had the highest PER last season (way higher than Joe Johnson who actually had under the PER of an average player) out of all the remaining options besides VC, and I like that he said "you tryna get the pipe?"

BirdIsTheWord
07-24-2013, 07:04 AM
Why no Tony Allen? I'd have put him 5th. Actually Iguodala should be here at 5 and T. Allen at 6.

Wilson Chandler was SF/PF, no idea why he's on the SG list.

Jesse2272
07-24-2013, 07:13 AM
JR Spliff:smoking:

LTBaByyy
07-24-2013, 07:54 AM
Monta Ellis have it all

Ellis
JJ
Klay
Carter
JR Smith

bloomis1307
07-24-2013, 08:27 AM
Iggy and Tony Allen I think are both ahead of Manu......

HowFit
07-24-2013, 09:27 AM
Vince or Smith...

LINsation
07-24-2013, 09:27 AM
JR.
Next year klay

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 09:30 AM
JR beats out JJ is almost every category, despite playing less minutes. If you do PER 36 JR blows away JJ.

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 09:32 AM
Vince Carter, do it all utility player

Unless he's CLEARLY better than everyone else, I don't see how you can pick a guy that played only 25mpg on a lottery team over guys that had much bigger roles on winning teams.

FYL_McVeezy
07-24-2013, 09:44 AM
I voted for Spliffy :smoking: :clap:

SteBO
07-24-2013, 10:03 AM
Even the league depth at C is better than this......

Anyways, I'll take the 6MOY here.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 10:24 AM
Still no Tyreke? :pity: He even has a legitimate argument here after the season he had. If not here, at least top 10.

These are a joke given what players are and aren't classified at each position.

Evans will be on the SF list. That is where he spent the majority of last season and next year he is starting at SF for the Pelicans with Gordon already entrenched at SG. Relax.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 10:25 AM
Tony Allen will be added next poll. My apologies for not putting him on this time.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Im voting for Iguodala but he's not on the list, im going for JR..

Iggy is a SF for next season if you consider that Curry and Thompson are the starters next season at PG and SG respectively.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 10:37 AM
Wilson Chandler was SF/PF, no idea why he's on the SG list.

ESPN had him listed as a SG. Faried was clearly the starting PF. Gallinari when he was healthy was the SF leaving Chandler tio grab minutes at 2 or 3 different positions. I do believe he really does not have a true position. The logic is not flawed.

ESPN has him as a SG
Rotoworld as a G/F
CBS as a SF
Fox Sports as SF
Yahoo Sports as G/F
NBA.com as a F
SI as a G/F

NYKnicks4511
07-24-2013, 10:49 AM
Joe Johnson should not be getting any votes, the guy is bona fide garbage. J.R. Smith here for me, there is no logical argument against him. He should have gone at #5 honestly.

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 10:54 AM
ESPN had him listed as a SG. Faried was clearly the starting PF. Gallinari when he was healthy was the SF leaving Chandler tio grab minutes at 2 or 3 different positions. I do believe he really does not have a true position. The logic is not flawed.

ESPN has him as a SG
Rotoworld as a G/F
CBS as a SF
Fox Sports as SF
Yahoo Sports as G/F
NBA.com as a F
SI as a G/F

Watched him on the Knicks for 5 years, he's 6'8 230, Melo's size. He rarely played SG, mostly PF or SF.

Your poll, but Chandler and a 6'10 George at SG make no sense to me or the vast majority here.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Watched him on the Knicks for 5 years, he's 6'8 230, Melo's size. He rarely played SG, mostly PF or SF.

Your poll, but Chandler and a 6'10 George at SG make no sense to me or the vast majority here.

Running this for 6 years and I have had no significant issues. Time to relax. You are the only one with the issue with it my friend. He was not going to get top 10 anyway.

Pacers have already stated that George will move to SG next year and start alongside Granger.

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 11:21 AM
Evans will be on the SF list. That is where he spent the majority of last season and next year he is starting at SF for the Pelicans with Gordon already entrenched at SG. Relax.

Tyreke spent most of his time at SG last year. NOLA is not sure how they will use him yet but i thought this was all based on last season not next season?

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 11:25 AM
Tyreke spent most of his time at SG last year. NOLA is not sure how they will use him yet but i thought this was all based on last season not next season?

Positions have typically been based on where the player will be starting next season. Very few players have these position discrepancies. This year the only discrepancies have been George, Chandler and Evans. Either way it is not altering the poll in a significant way.

More than happy to hear a discussion on where Evans should be put since he like Chandler is a player that typically plays multiple positions throughout the game and season.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 11:29 AM
Evan last year Salmons started 72 games for the Kings and both him and Evans are near identical size. Both started on wing so it is very much a toss up. Also many early rumblings have the Pelicans potentially starting Evans next to Gordon but as it has been said this is undetermined.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 11:33 AM
The problem is that many players don't have true positions anymore. Many guys are classified as simply a wing or a forward. Players play multiple positions now which makes it that much harder to distinguish.

For example melo may start at PF but he may not be the PF for the majority of the game. Also because the Knicks chose to start melo at PF is that where he belongs or is at the SF position. People are getting way too caught up on one position for each player.

ManRam
07-24-2013, 01:44 PM
Tony Allen should be included in the next poll.

yeah. I might have voted for him here.

ManRam
07-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Holy hell...if Vince Carter is getting votes here, well, the SG position is a sad lot of players.

With that said, I actually think it's Vince. Either him, Joe or JR. Vince is a bit better defensively and brings more to the table than JR. JR had a good year, but the only thing he's above average at is scoring, and even that's debatable. 16 shots a game to get 18 points? Not very efficient at all.

I can't believe I'm gonna vote Vince...he was so bad in Orlando. But yeah. He's a better player than JR, because there's more to the game than just scoring.


Joe's defense is too big of a detriment right here, and he wasn't a huge asset offensively either last season. RAPM rates his and Vince's offense equally.

tredigs
07-24-2013, 02:06 PM
Holy hell...if Vince Carter is getting votes here, well, the SG position is a sad lot of players.

With that said, I actually think it's Vince. Either him, Joe or JR. Vince is a bit better defensively and brings more to the table than JR. JR had a good year, but the only thing he's above average at is scoring, and even that's debatable. 16 shots a game to get 18 points? Not very efficient at all.

I can't believe I'm gonna vote Vince...he was so bad in Orlando. But yeah. He's a better player than JR, because there's more to the game than just scoring.


Joe's defense is too big of a detriment right here, and he wasn't a huge asset offensively either last season. RAPM rates his and Vince's offense equally.

Haha, Vince was pretty dope last year to be honest. He fully excepted his limited role and excelled in it. I just checked and he posted his highest TS% of his career too (57% on 13+ ppg - that's solid).

JLynn943
07-24-2013, 02:20 PM
I voted for JR Smith simply for the fact that he had the highest PER last season (way higher than Joe Johnson who actually had under the PER of an average player) out of all the remaining options besides VC, and I like that he said "you tryna get the pipe?"

and Tyreke had a higher PER than JR

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-24-2013, 02:26 PM
Joe Johnson should not be getting any votes, the guy is bona fide garbage. J.R. Smith here for me, there is no logical argument against him. He should have gone at #5 honestly.

Joe Johnson's eFG% and 3 point% are better than JR's and his TS% is equal with his.

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 02:29 PM
Holy hell...if Vince Carter is getting votes here, well, the SG position is a sad lot of players.

With that said, I actually think it's Vince. Either him, Joe or JR. Vince is a bit better defensively and brings more to the table than JR. JR had a good year, but the only thing he's above average at is scoring, and even that's debatable. 16 shots a game to get 18 points? Not very efficient at all.

I can't believe I'm gonna vote Vince...he was so bad in Orlando. But yeah. He's a better player than JR, because there's more to the game than just scoring.


Joe's defense is too big of a detriment right here, and he wasn't a huge asset offensively either last season. RAPM rates his and Vince's offense equally.

That's a pretty bold statement.

If you look at the numbers the only thing VC really did better was shoot the 3 ball at a career high clip. When you post a career high TS% at 36 in your 16th year, I'd say that's an aberration. I wouldn't say that makes him a better player than JR... I'm not a big fan of JR, but i'll take him over a guy that played 25mpg in a limited role for a lottery team.

He had a more efficient offensive season in a much smaller role than JR with much less volume. I think we're over valuing advanced stats if we're going to say that makes him a better player.

Swap those 2 players and DAL prob makes the playoffs and NY prob drops to a #5 seed.

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 02:30 PM
Joe Johnson's eFG% and 3 point% are better than JR's and his TS% is equal with his.

The numbers heavily favor JR overall.

NYKnickFanatic
07-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Wilson Chandler is not a SG...

NYKnickFanatic
07-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Are people serious about Carter for #6?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-24-2013, 02:37 PM
The numbers heavily favor JR overall.

The ones that matter don't

knicksfan42
07-24-2013, 02:39 PM
Joe Johnson's eFG% and 3 point% are better than JR's and his TS% is equal with his.

eFG% and 3p% are irrelevant TS% is the only stat that accurately measures efficiency. FG% + 3P% + FT% = TS%. There TS% is pretty much the same (Smith is better by .001) but Smith is a better defender and rebounder than Johnson while also being the 2nd option on a 54 win team.

IversonIsKrazy
07-24-2013, 02:40 PM
Give me JJ .

Kashmir13579
07-24-2013, 02:41 PM
Joe Johnson's eFG% and 3 point% are better than JR's and his TS% is equal with his.


You've sold me.

FOBolous
07-24-2013, 03:07 PM
it's really hard to decide after #4

jericho
07-24-2013, 03:11 PM
I just have 2 questions where is tony Allen and what is Wilson chandler doing here?? Scratch more questions didn't Paul George play sf this yr what bout iggy he played sg this yr 2. No disrespect to the op I've been following this thing every yr but last yr you had a better system implemented where only the top choices where available to be picked. This yr you are moving players around and making players available who have no business been in a top 10 conversation. Sorry I'm just giving my 10 cents on this.

NYKnicks4511
07-24-2013, 03:38 PM
Joe Johnson's eFG% and 3 point% are better than JR's and his TS% is equal with his.

J.R. played better defense, rebounded better, had more Win Shares than Joe. All while playing fewer minutes per game, and being more durable.

Additionally, J.R. had a higher PER (18) to JJ's 14. This means that JJ was essentially a below average player last year.

By the way, I'd say that the discrepancy between their eFG% is neglible. Only argument I'd consider is that J.R. had a poor postseason, and JJ had his moments vs the Bulls. Still, there's far too much tipping the scales in J.R.'s favor IMHO.

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 03:57 PM
Positions have typically been based on where the player will be starting next season. Very few players have these position discrepancies. This year the only discrepancies have been George, Chandler and Evans. Either way it is not altering the poll in a significant way.

More than happy to hear a discussion on where Evans should be put since he like Chandler is a player that typically plays multiple positions throughout the game and season.

Tyreke logged nearly 4x more minutes at SG than he did at SF. I agree he's versatile and the positional lines are blurred today more than ever. I think if you look at his skillset and the position where's he been most successful and then compare him to the type of players listed in the poll, this is where Tyreke fits.

Mile High Champ
07-24-2013, 03:58 PM
I just have 2 questions where is tony Allen and what is Wilson chandler doing here?? Scratch more questions didn't Paul George play sf this yr what bout iggy he played sg this yr 2. No disrespect to the op I've been following this thing every yr but last yr you had a better system implemented where only the top choices where available to be picked. This yr you are moving players around and making players available who have no business been in a top 10 conversation. Sorry I'm just giving my 10 cents on this.

The system is the same but it in applies go the top players in the league poll. I have already addressed the other players directly.

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 04:09 PM
The next time I watch JR Smith drop 28 points on 27 shots, I will don a Knicks jersey and proudly proclaim: "this guy is the 6th best SG in the NBA!"

jimm120
07-24-2013, 04:14 PM
Are people serious about Carter for #6?

Carter deserves to be in the top 10 for what he did this past season.

Maybe not #6 but in the top10. Will he stay there after this season, probably not. But still, he did a lot this year.


Ellis should also be in the top 10, imo.

In no specific order...

JR, Joe Johnson, Vince Carter, Ellis.


and I don't know....maybe Klay THompson or Joe Crawford.

jimm120
07-24-2013, 04:14 PM
The next time I watch JR Smith drop 28 points on 27 shots, I will don a Knicks jersey and proudly proclaim: "this guy is the 6th best SG in the NBA!"

I think you need to look at the box scores again. He NEVER takes that many shots.

Just checked out his game log....he shot 20 or more shots in 7 (SEVEN) games! wtf are you talking about? that's few in the course of a whole season!

EDIT:

Sorry, just checked again to make sure. He took 20 or more shots 12 times during the season. 12 out of 82 games is NOT a lot...considering he was the Knicks #2 scorer!

mrblisterdundee
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
Although he stunk it up in the playoffs, J.R. Smith was the third best player on the Knicks last year.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-24-2013, 04:26 PM
J.R. played better defense, rebounded better, had more Win Shares than Joe. All while playing fewer minutes per game, and being more durable.

Additionally, J.R. had a higher PER (18) to JJ's 14. This means that JJ was essentially a below average player last year.

By the way, I'd say that the discrepancy between their eFG% is neglible. Only argument I'd consider is that J.R. had a poor postseason, and JJ had his moments vs the Bulls. Still, there's far too much tipping the scales in J.R.'s favor IMHO.

Fair points, but I don't look at PER as the end all be all like some people do. I agree that JR's better on the defensive end though. Joe Johnson is a better shooter. And I really don't use rebounding as a factor for SG's, especially seeing that Joe had a much better rebounding front court than JR which helps JR's rebounding stats.

nycericanguy
07-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Fair points, but I don't look at PER as the end all be all like some people do. I agree that JR's better on the defensive end though. Joe Johnson is a better shooter. And I really don't use rebounding as a factor for SG's, especially seeing that Joe had a much better rebounding front court than JR which helps JR's rebounding stats.

JR shot 42% and 36% from 3 and got to the line almost twice as much as JJ

JJ shot 42% and 38% from 3.

ChiSox219
07-24-2013, 04:55 PM
I think you need to look at the box scores again. He NEVER takes that many shots.

Just checked out his game log....he shot 20 or more shots in 7 (SEVEN) games! wtf are you talking about? that's few in the course of a whole season!

EDIT:

Sorry, just checked again to make sure. He took 20 or more shots 12 times during the season. 12 out of 82 games is NOT a lot...considering he was the Knicks #2 scorer!

It was a reference to the Knicks April 11th OT loss at Chicago. JR Smith was a -32 in a 7 point loss.

KnickaBocka.44
07-24-2013, 04:56 PM
tony allen mhc. he's the only all-nba team player left at the position.

what are you talking about?

Iggz53
07-24-2013, 05:13 PM
So Wilson Chandler and Dion Waiters are in this poll, while Jimmy Butler and Tony Allen are not. No words.

Hawkeye15
07-24-2013, 08:54 PM
it was between Vince and Tony Allen. I went Vince.

D-Leethal
07-24-2013, 09:50 PM
JR was the 2nd best player and iron man who didn't miss a game for a 54 win team last year and won 6MOY and dudes are voting for ****ing Vince Carter over him? (anyone that wants to make a case for Chandler please get your head out of the stat sheet and take a look at the tear the team went on while he was sidelined). Without JR, the Knicks were barely a .500 team last year and he had more big time game clinching shots than the rest of our team combined last year.

JLynn943
07-24-2013, 10:20 PM
Evan last year Salmons started 72 games for the Kings and both him and Evans are near identical size. Both started on wing so it is very much a toss up. Also many early rumblings have the Pelicans potentially starting Evans next to Gordon but as it has been said this is undetermined.

No, it's not a toss-up. Evans started at and primarily played SG.

lukass
07-24-2013, 11:18 PM
Thompson for sure, with JR a close 2nd and Gordon the biggest mystery should be the 6th if he was just Eric Gordon again.... but I don't think Ginoboli should be in the top 5 anymore

Kashmir13579
07-25-2013, 05:37 AM
JR was the 2nd best player and iron man who didn't miss a game for a 54 win team last year and won 6MOY and dudes are voting for ****ing Vince Carter over him? (anyone that wants to make a case for Chandler please get your head out of the stat sheet and take a look at the tear the team went on while he was sidelined). Without JR, the Knicks were barely a .500 team last year and he had more big time game clinching shots than the rest of our team combined last year.
Chandler was no doubt our second best player in my eyes, but Vince Carter?? lmfao

Anyone but the Knickerbocker i guess. JR should've went at 5.