PDA

View Full Version : Who Were The Greatest One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew Guys



Pablonovi
07-23-2013, 09:18 PM
"Greatest One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew Guys": NEW DRAFT (Hollinger-Based) LIST

HEY GUYS/GALS: PLEASE SEE: PAGE 5, POSTS: 161, 162, 163, AND 165 thru to 173 FOR IMPORTANT INFO. This new revised OP is basically an exact copy of post 178.

N.B. A lot of the stuff in this post is copied from the OP post. The stuff that is new for this post is almost exclusively presented here in the form of a chart titled, "THE NEXT 20 ARE PROBABLE CANDIDATES"/

Pablonovi:
Who Were The Greatest One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew Guys

[SNIP]

1 Russel 1965 Celtics (his best Finals year?; more pros/cons please' but Sam Jones his "1b"?)
2 Wilt 1967 76ers (VERY STRONG; more pros/cons please)
3 Greer 196_ 76ers (missing: his best year?; Wilt & other teammates AND vs opponent's best)
4 West 1969 * (VERY STRONG; was fMVP despite being on the Finals-Losers)
5 KAJ 1971 Bucks (VERY STRONG; more pros/cons please)
6 Barry 1975 Warriors (VERY STRONG)
7 ____________
8 ____________
9 ____________
10 ____________

PLEASE MAKE SUGGESTIONS ABOUT THE FIRST 6 AND HELP ADD 4 MORE FOR THE PERIOD 1960-1976.

THE NEXT 20 ARE PROBABLE CANDIDATES (originally from Hollinger's "Top 50 Finals Performers"; but re-arranged to better reflect "One-Man Finals Wrecking-Crew Guys")
a=#1 that yr's Finals; b=#2 that yr's Finals; c=#3 that yr's Finals

PER#..NAME; This List: Xs; TM YR;#/Yr PER
..1.. Wade, Dwyane...... 1 Mia 2006 1 33.8
..2.. Duncan, Tim......... 1 S A 2003 1 32.0
..3.. Jordan, Michael..... 1 Chi. 1997 1 29.5
..4.. Olajuwon, Hakeem 1 Hou 1994 1 27.1
..5.. Johnson, Magic..... 1 LAL 1987 1 28.2
..6.. Jordan, Michael..... 2 Chi. 1991 1 31.5
..7.. O'Neal, Shaquille... 1 LAL 2000 1 31.1
..8.. O'Neal, Shaquille... 2 LAL 2002 1 31.4
..9.. O'Neal, Shaquille... 3 LAL 2001 1 29.4
10.. Bryant, Kobe......... 1 LAL 2009 1 28.3
11.. Malone, Moses....... 1 Phi. 1983 1 26.0
12.. Abdul-Jabbar, K..... 1 LAL 1985 1 23.8
13.. Bird, Larry............ 1 Bos 1984 1 23.0
14.. Olajuwon, Hakeem 2 Hou 1995 1 22.2
15.. Dumars, Joe......... 1 Det 1989 1 26.0
16a Wade, Dwyane...... 2 Mia 2011 1 30.2 1 10.1 PER gap over #2 that year
16b Nowitzki, Dirk....... 1 Dal. 2011 2 20.1 2
17a Jordan, Michael..... 3 Chi. 1992 1 29.2 1.. 7.7 PER gap over #2 that year
17b Pippen, Scottie...... 1 Chi. 1992 2 21.5 2
18a Johnson, Magic...... 2 LAL 1988 1 27.5 1.. 7.0 PER gap over #2 that year
18b Thomas, Isiah....... 1 Det 1988 2 20.5 2
19a Jordan, Michael..... 4 Chi. 1993 1 27.6 1.. 5.1 PER gap over #2 that year
19b Barkley, Charles.... 1 Pho 1993 2 22.5 2
20a Jordan, Michael..... 5 Chi. 1998 1 30.8 1.. 4.0 PER gap over #2 that year
20b Malone, Karl......... 1 Uta 1998 2 26.8 2

B: "LONG-SHOT CANDIDATES"
a 21 Kemp, Shawn 1 OKC(Sea)1996 1 25.8 1of2
b 21 Jordan, Michael 6 Chicago 1996 2 23.1 2.7
a 22 Malone, Moses 2 Houston 1981 1 22.5 1of2
b 22 Maxwell, Cedric 1 Boston 1981 2 20.4 2.1
a 23 Billups, Chauncey 1 Detroit 2005 1 23.7 1of2
b 23 Duncan, Tim 2 San An 2005 2 21.8 1.9
a 24 Bird, Larry 2 Boston 1986 1 22.4 1of2
b 24 Olajuwon, Hakeem 3 Houston 1986 2 21.2 1.2
a 25 Thomas, Isiah 2 Detroit 1990 1 27.1 1of2
b 25 Drexler, Clyde 1 Portland 1990 2 26.0 1.1
a 26 Bryant, Kobe 2 L.A.Laker 2010 1 26.3 1of2
b 26 Gasol, Pau 1 L.A.Laker 2010 2 25.5 0.8
a 27 Parker, Tony 1 San An 2007 1 26.0 1of2
b 27 Duncan, Tim 3 San Ant 2007 2 25.2 0.8
a 28 Walton, Bill 1 Portland 1977 1 23.3 1of2
b 28 Erving, Julius 1 Philadel 1977 2 24.4 -1.1
a 29 Duncan, Tim 4 San An 1999 1 30.7 1of3
b 29 Robinson, David 1 San An 1999 2 26.3 4.4
c 29 Sprewell, Latrell 1 N.Y. Knic 1999 3 23.3 3.0
a 30 Abdul-Jabbar, Kar. 2 L.A.Laker 1980 1 27.3 1of3
b 30 Johnson, Magic 3 L.A.Laker 1980 2 23.3 4.0
c 30 Erving, Julius 2 Philadel 1980 3 21.4 1.9
a 31 Billups, Chauncey 2 Detroit 2004 1 27.1 1of3
b 31 O'Neal, Shaquille 4 L.A.Laker 2004 2 25.7 1.4
c 31 Wallace, Ben 1 Detroit 2004 3 16.5 9.2

C: "HONORABLE-MENTION CANDIDATES (from my/our OP earlier):
[SNIP]
32 Iverson 2000 76errs (for guts+gunning; MOST CONTROVERSIAL)
33 Kidd 2001 Nets (for his team's clear "fMVP")
34 Kidd 2002 Nets (for his team's clear "fMVP")
35 KG 2008 Celtics (for his team's fMVP (slighted?); few comments so far)
36 LeBron 2013 Heat (strong qualifier?; more pros/cons please; ?WAY better than: Duncan, Parker, Wade?)
- - - - - - - -
[SNIP]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MY 2 CRITERIA: EITHER:
1) The best player (by a wide margin) on the winning team; OR
2) The best player (by a wide margin) on the losing team AND decidedly better than any player on the winning team.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
P.S. On this, page 5 of this thread, I've given a ton of information, hopefully as a relatively good scientific basis (using Holllinger's expert opinions) upon which each of us can more thoroughly analyze each candidate. IF you have any questions about ANY aspect of any of these pg 5 posts; please don't hesitate to ask.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND: I HAVE NOT RE-WORKED THIS NEW LIST IN ANY WAY - i.e., it does NOT reflect my own personal opinions vis-à-vis any would-be final OP Rankings. I feel it is better to just present Hollinger's (Adjusted to better reflect our OP) Rankings and let everyone start opinionating from there. From here on in, I will, as well, start giving my own opinions either in response to you-all's posts or in separate posts.

I hope you-all enjoy the f_ck out of the coming discussion; I bet I will too.
Pablo

kdspurman
07-23-2013, 09:36 PM
Duncan in 03?

D-Leethal
07-23-2013, 09:40 PM
If you're counting West because Baylor/Wilt had a poor playoff than you really gotta count LeBron this year too because Bosh/Wade were trash for the larger majority of it.

el hidalgo
07-23-2013, 09:45 PM
shaq in the 2000 playoffs

Kush McDaniels
07-23-2013, 09:50 PM
Duncan in 03?by the standards laid out up top^ - fo sho.

TrueFan420
07-23-2013, 10:10 PM
Dude how AI not on the list

JerseyPalahniuk
07-23-2013, 10:13 PM
Dude how AI not on the list

Look at the stats and articles from the seasons and finals performances these players had before making that assumption. I thought the same about Jason Kidd in 01 and 02 but these players had greater Finals performances.

TrueFan420
07-23-2013, 10:19 PM
Look at the stats and articles from the seasons and finals performances these players had before making that assumption. I thought the same about Jason Kidd in 01 and 02 but these players had greater Finals performances.

Not even honorable mention tho. Those players also had better cast around them than AI. He took the the worse supporting cast in the history of the NBA to the finals.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-23-2013, 10:28 PM
Not even honorable mention tho. Those players also had better cast around them than AI. He took the the worse supporting cast in the history of the NBA to the finals.

There ya go, added a reason. But the thread title was top 5. Not top 5 plus honorable mention. And it discussed their performance in the Finals itself. Getting to the Finals wasn't a criteria.

Although Iverson scored a ton of points (35.6) he was the only option there. He took 162 shots in 5 games, averaged only 3.8 assists and shot 40%. And again LOST in 5 games.

While Jerry West also Lost in the 1969 finals, his performance was so incredible that he was named NBA Finals MVP. He is the ONLY player to ever receive that "honor."

EDIT: Checked, he is indeed the only player to get the MVP on a losing team.

Chronz
07-23-2013, 10:31 PM
Yea, mentioning West opens the door for quite a few players.

Pablonovi
07-23-2013, 10:33 PM
Thanx all for your first responses.

Perhaps I should have reworded this so that it would more "readily" ask for more candidates. But that WAS my intention; not to insist that this list of 5 is the final word.

So, about AI. IF we look at his over-all Play-off performance, I agree - he took a team that had no business (without his heroics) even being in the play-offs really. Somehow he dragged them to the finals (iirc thru more than one 7 game grind-out series). His performance that year definitely should be in a Top 10; again if we don't primarily focus on the Finals. One counter argument is a technical one and is NOT his fault: that the West was WAY THE F___ better than the East that year. But a greater counter argument, if we DO focus on the finals is that he was in NO WAY the best player in those finals; and so would not qualify.

In my memory, I can't recall anyone (other than 1969's West) who came close to being the fMVP while on the losing Finals team. IF we agree that to qualify for this list your team either has to win the Finals that year OR you have to be the fMVP (or should have been; but were wrongly slighted).

Duncan in 2003? What do people say?

JerseyPalahniuk
07-23-2013, 10:42 PM
Yea, mentioning West opens the door for quite a few players.

BTW that Finals series: Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

Jerry West in the 1969 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics:

Game 1 he scored 53 points, Game 2 he scored 42 points. Game 4-5? 40 and 39 points respectively.
Game 7: "He posted a triple-double of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists, keeping his team in the game despite the fact that he was battling a hamstring pull and Wilt Chamberlain was inexplicably riding the bench late in the fourth quarter." They lost 108-106!!!

I couldn't find other stats besides the points for the rest of the games but I'm sure he had all around games too. IMO Iverson and any players mentioned on a losing effort won't come near that impact, considering who he played against (Celtics) and how close he was to winning it all (TWO POINTS).

And he took these losses BADLY:


No one was affected more by those defeats [referring to the Celtics losses] than West. "He took a loss harder than any player I've ever known," said longtime Lakers broadcaster Chick Hearn in the National Sports Daily. "He would sit by himself and stare into space. A loss just ripped his guts out." It's no wonder. West held himself to seemingly impossible standards. "I'm surprised when the ball doesn't go into the hoop," West said toward the end of his career. "I think I should make every shot."

-Kinda reminds you of Jordan and Kobe's tenacity doesn't it?

Chronz
07-23-2013, 10:46 PM
LOL AI had the best help in his conference.

TrueFan420
07-23-2013, 10:56 PM
There ya go, added a reason. But the thread title was top 5. Not top 5 plus honorable mention. And it discussed their performance in the Finals itself. Getting to the Finals wasn't a criteria.

Although Iverson scored a ton of points (35.6) he was the only option there. He took 162 shots in 5 games, averaged only 3.8 assists and shot 40%. And again LOST in 5 games.

While Jerry West also Lost in the 1969 finals, his performance was so incredible that he was named NBA Finals MVP. He is the ONLY player to ever receive that "honor."

EDIT: Checked, he is indeed the only player to get the MVP on a losing team.

First of all I don't need the attitude. Second of all the OP says only big star on the team as a criteria. But two of his players on the list, west and Hakeem, have other stars.

Yes what west did was fantastic and to be the only finals MVP to lose is damn impressive but if AI was playing with players with the talent level of Baylor and chamberlain or drexlor I bet he'd have won a ring during his career.

asandhu23
07-23-2013, 10:56 PM
Can't really say Jerry West was the only star of 1969. Wilt did great except for game 6. in Game 7, he injured his knee and had to be replaced by Mel Counts.

asandhu23
07-23-2013, 11:03 PM
BTW that Finals series: Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

Jerry West in the 1969 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics:

Game 1 he scored 53 points, Game 2 he scored 42 points. Game 4-5? 40 and 39 points respectively.
Game 7: He posted a triple-double of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists, keeping his team in the game despite the fact that he was battling a hamstring pull and Wilt Chamberlain was inexplicably riding the bench late in the fourth quarter. They lost 108-106!!!

I couldn't find other stats besides the points for the rest of the games but I'm sure he had all around games too. IMO Iverson and any players mentioned on a losing effort won't come near that impact, considering who he played against (Celtics) and how close he was to winning it all (TWO POINTS).

And he took these losses BADLY:



-Kinda reminds you of Jordan and Kobe's tenacity doesn't it?


really? Van Breda Kolff came out and defended Wilt when the media came out and pushed that BS.

also this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU

JerseyPalahniuk
07-23-2013, 11:06 PM
really? Van Breda Kolff came out and defended Wilt when the media came out and pushed that BS.

also this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU

My choice of words was from a quote from NBA.com. I forgot to put the quotes around that segment, I'll add it in now. My point wasn't to demean Chamberlain for any reason (saying he faked an injury or whatever), just to highlight West's performance by saying he led his team to within 2 points of the championship with Wilt on the bench for a important portion of the 4th quarter.

Pablonovi
07-23-2013, 11:07 PM
BTW that Finals series: Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

Jerry West in the 1969 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics:

Game 1 he scored 53 points, Game 2 he scored 42 points. Game 4-5? 40 and 39 points respectively.
Game 7: He posted a triple-double of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists, keeping his team in the game despite the fact that he was battling a hamstring pull and Wilt Chamberlain was inexplicably riding the bench late in the fourth quarter. They lost 108-106!!!

I couldn't find other stats besides the points for the rest of the games but I'm sure he had all around games too. IMO Iverson and any players mentioned on a losing effort won't come near that impact, considering who he played against (Celtics) and how close he was to winning it all (TWO POINTS).

And he took these losses BADLY:



-Kinda reminds you of Jordan and Kobe's tenacity doesn't it?

Yes, in the 1969 Finals, despite being obvious exhausted before its start, Jerry West was just ridiculously good. Russell (as coach) chose NOT to double cover vs West in the first two games, and as a result, he scorched the Celtics. His game 7 performance is one of, if not THE greatest Game 7 AND Final Performances ever. NO ONE ELSE ON EITHER TEAM, played anywhere near his level. His fMVP was totally deserved, despite his team losing the series.

So, even though he was on the losing team; his being on this list is two things:
1) Totally deserved;
2) NOT a door-opener for other players on losing Finals teams; why not?: they didn't win the fMVP; i.e. they WEREN'T the best player in the series. IF anyone can make the argument that a losing-team player (other than West in 1969) was the best player from either team in a Finals series (but was "cheated" out of the fMVP just because his team lost); then we should discuss that. No?

El Hidalgo: About Shaq in 2000; though he was clearly inferior to Shaq, was Kobe NOT a Big-Star in the Finals that year? I think he was. Please make a good argument that he wasn't. I doubt that 1% of posters here will agree with you.

D-Leethal: Would you please expand on the merits of LeBron's case for this past year? I'm not arguing against you at this point; just looking for more/better arguments in his favor. Consider too, that even if LeBron was clearly his team's #1; can we honestly say that Wade was just average, i.e., not a Big-Star in that series? I agree about Bosh; I'd like to see more discussion about Wade.

kdspurman: Why not take the opportunity to argue your case for Duncan in 2003? My guess is that you'll claim that Parker hadn't reached the Big-Star level and that Ginobili wasn't quite there either. Correct me if I'm wrong; care to make a more/better case; than just mentioning Timmy's name? Please do.

A REMINDER: To qualify for this list you have to either be on the winning team OR a worthy fMVP candidate from the losing team.
N.B. You don't necessarily have to be in the very top 5, forcing one of the guys I listed in the OP off the list; you could be a Top 10-er; nothing to feel bad about!

LASTLY, Anyone who wants to can certainly address "my" first 5 candidates; i.e., talk about just how great they did (more specifically); or, argue that they weren't that outstanding and, if so, please say why you feel that way.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-23-2013, 11:09 PM
First of all I don't need the attitude. Second of all the OP says only big star on the team as a criteria. But two of his players on the list, west and Hakeem, have other stars.

Yes what west did was fantastic and to be the only finals MVP to lose is damn impressive but if AI was playing with players with the talent level of Baylor and chamberlain or drexlor I bet he'd have won a ring during his career.

I'm sorry for the attitude. It seemed as though you were one of the posters who merely just adds a name to a thread with absolutely no reasoning. Got the vibe from "dude how AI not on the list". I wasn't trying to demean AI with my reasoning but trying to compare West's performance with AI's. The AI teammate issue is a giant IF that we may never know but it's not safe to assume that he would have won a ring though with his style of play.

LAKobeBryant
07-23-2013, 11:17 PM
lol im dead..you tried to bold the title.

asandhu23
07-23-2013, 11:18 PM
My choice of words was from a quote from NBA.com. I forgot to put the quotes around that segment, I'll add it in now. My point wasn't to demean Chamberlain for any reason (saying he faked an injury or whatever), just to highlight West's performance by saying he led his team to within 2 points of the championship with Wilt on the bench for a important portion of the 4th quarter.


That same knee of his was messed up again next year causing him to miss most of the 1970 regular season. People forget that.

asandhu23
07-23-2013, 11:28 PM
I agree with the Rick Barry being the only true superstar on his team. Jamaal Wilkes was no schmuck though.

JordansBulls
07-23-2013, 11:47 PM
MJ 1991 and 1998. only allstar on the team.

JordansBulls
07-23-2013, 11:49 PM
Putting Jerry West is a joke here considering the Lakers had 3 guys who made the allstar that season in 1969 in

1968-69
Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West

TheMightyHumph
07-23-2013, 11:50 PM
BTW that Finals series: Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

Jerry West in the 1969 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics:

Game 1 he scored 53 points, Game 2 he scored 42 points. Game 4-5? 40 and 39 points respectively.
Game 7: "He posted a triple-double of 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists, keeping his team in the game despite the fact that he was battling a hamstring pull and Wilt Chamberlain was inexplicably riding the bench late in the fourth quarter." They lost 108-106!!!

I couldn't find other stats besides the points for the rest of the games but I'm sure he had all around games too. IMO Iverson and any players mentioned on a losing effort won't come near that impact, considering who he played against (Celtics) and how close he was to winning it all (TWO POINTS).

And he took these losses BADLY:



-Kinda reminds you of Jordan and Kobe's tenacity doesn't it?

Do Wilt's 25 rpg and defense mean nothing?

JerseyPalahniuk
07-24-2013, 12:02 AM
MJ 1991 and 1998. only allstar on the team.


Putting Jerry West is a joke here considering the Lakers had 3 guys who made the allstar that season in 1969 in

1968-69
Elgin Baylor
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West

All-star teams are all that matter to you, eh? Not the impact of the players and how they actually played in the Finals (what the thread is asking for).

JerseyPalahniuk
07-24-2013, 12:03 AM
Do Wilt's 25 rpg and defense mean nothing?

Obviously it means something, but there must've been a reason that he was chosen as the finals MVP, no? I never said Wilt had no impact whatsoever.

TheMightyHumph
07-24-2013, 12:16 AM
Obviously it means something, but there must've been a reason that he was chosen as the finals MVP, no? I never said Wilt had no impact whatsoever.

There is no question that The Logo was MVP of that Finals.

But I don't believe West fits the criteria of the OP.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:32 AM
About West in 1969. I'm have recently claimed that Wilt, during his best years, was way better than all his contemporaries. And no one wants to claim that Wilt disappeared. But, the facts are, that in the 1969 Finals, he averaged less than 14 points a game; and despite his good defense and rebounds; that isn't close to what West did. No way was he a 1a to West's 1b.

The argument about Wilt and Baylor being All-Stars earlier that year just has no bearing on how they actually performed in the Finals; where together they averaged less than 30 points (TOGETHER!); while West averaged over 38! by himself. West also did other things extremely well. His Finals performance was all-sided. That's why he was voted the fMVP despite being on the losing team; the only one in history.

Wilt's injured knee: The question is not whether he was injured or not; the question is not whether he might have faked how bad it was or not. Similarly the thing about the coach keeping him (or not) on the bench is irrelevant. The only question here is: Compared to West, how did Wilt actually perform in that series? And the answer, imo, is that West was way better than him. Therefore, West was the only truly Big-Star based on actual performance.

btw for your info: I rank Wilt higher all-time than all his main contemporaries: West, Baylor, the Big "O" and Russell. In fact, higher than everybody he ever played with or against except for KAJ. And I have stated repeatedly that he was in fact WAY better than West, Baylor, O and Russell. Just one of my arguments: Russell basically always had an All-Star Team PLUS the best coach who was WAY better than Hannum and the others; and yet; Wilt (with much less player and coach help) pushed Russell's Celtics thru series that were like wars; and that the Celtics only barely won despite all those huge advantages. Further, that Russell NEVER shut Wilt down, never.

TrueFan420
07-24-2013, 12:37 AM
I'm sorry for the attitude. It seemed as though you were one of the posters who merely just adds a name to a thread with absolutely no reasoning. Got the vibe from "dude how AI not on the list". I wasn't trying to demean AI with my reasoning but trying to compare West's performance with AI's. The AI teammate issue is a giant IF that we may never know but it's not safe to assume that he would have won a ring though with his style of play.
Fair enough. I was on my phone at the time so I didn't want to make a big in depth post. I just feel that the OP didn't stick with his own criteria and feel that AI should be on the list.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:44 AM
Hey JordansBulls,
About MJ in 1991 and 1998. Are you saying that Scottie Pippen DID NOT play huge in those two Finals? I'm not dis-agreeing with you here at this moment; just asking you to please explain your reasons for each of those two cases.

I would hope that people here would know about me that I have no axes to grind; am a homer of no player, ever in NBA history; and am open to be convinced, based on sound arguments, about any number of possible candidates for this list. I would hope that we average a little more civility in this thread than we might average generally in PSD NBA discussions. It's all only for fun, no? I do have the advantage of having seen every NBA (and ABA) great play (except for Mikan); and believe that after 55 years of being a rabid NBA fan (of various players on many teams); that I would rather learn from what everyone has to say and change my position gracefully, if convinced; rather than, fight to defend a previous opinion I've held, just or mainly because I did in fact think I was right before.

N.B. Almost every body we're discussing (or mentioned) I've got in my top 15 GOAT list (not in order here, not in this thread): Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, O, KAJ, MJ. So no one should assume that I've an anti-homer (?) against their favorite player. Further, I admit to being sharper about some important things; while being weaker about others (for example, I far from an expert on understanding, much less applying with skill analysis based on the advanced stats. I look forward to understanding the things I am weaker on exactly thru your participation.
Thanx

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:54 AM
Fair enough. I was on my phone at the time so I didn't want to make a big in depth post. I just feel that the OP didn't stick with his own criteria and feel that AI should be on the list.

I have deep respect for AI for one special reason in particular. That year the Lakers steam-rolled a series of very good to great teams; including the Robinson-Duncan Spurs. They won 16 games; and most of them were, as is so often said here, NOT EVEN CLOSE. But in one game, someone did something astonishing against that juggernaut. In that game, iirc, AI was a one-man whirling-dervish that the Lakers were just powerless to slow down much less stop. He had killed his butt in 3 tough series to get to the Finals, and still he fought like crazy. All these other fine teams barely made the Lakers sweat; but the 76ers, mostly because of AI; beat them in overtime - I listened to the game on radio (no TV reception there) and I still can hardly believe what the man did. He never quit.

fyi I'm a smallish kind of guy; so, if anything, I have special sympathy towards the small super-stars like AI (Mugsy Boogs, Isiah Thomas, ...; all else being equaled. *
STILL, he was NOT the fMVP; not even close. Both Kobe and Shaq (or to stay clear of any silliness); both Shaq and Kobe outplayed him. AI was not even close to being Shaq's equal. Therefore, based on my criteria: EITHER:
1) The best player (by a wide margin) on the winning team; OR
2) The best player I(by a wide margin) on the losing team AND better than any player on the other team.

AI doesn't qualify for the top of my list. Outstanding performance? Clearly. Top 15 "One-Man" Shows in the Finals? Maybe yes (let's discuss this further, no?). Top 5? No way. Better than the five in the OP? NO WAY.

* I played a ton of basketball from late grammar school, thru every single day for hours in high school and college and for decades afterwards: I was the typical crazy gym rat.

Was I any good? No! Why? Just too short, too slow, and I had so little lift, we used to joke about my "negative vertical leap" hehe. But I was always a great team-mate; and I often got picked up to play in games where other better-individual players weren't. In other words, if I have one single over-riding bias (bias as in a less than 100% objective outlook); it would be in favor of a better teammate over a lesser one. That's why I have Magic way up on the GOAT list; Larry as well ... Perhaps more than most, I emphasize assist-men and great passers.

Cracka2HI!
07-24-2013, 12:54 AM
What's up Pablo! I see you're starting threads now. I don't have much to add to the conversation. I don't really remember anyone that hasn't been brought up. Still enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work!

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:30 AM
MODS, A LITTLE HELP, OR AT LEAST ADVICE, PLEASE.
What seemed self-evident to me; is clearly NOT to almost everybody else. I had in mind two criteria as the qualifying "rules" for this list; but I did NOT include them in the OP until just now.

I have tried to make the change easy to see; by adding it to the bottom of the OP; and separating it from the above earlier stuff with a dashed line, like: "- - - - - - - - - ".

My question/request: if there is any way that people can be better alerted to this necessary clarification on my part, I sure would appreciate it if you could "get that done", carry that out for me.
Thanx
Pablo

TheMightyHumph
07-24-2013, 01:36 AM
About West in 1969. I'm have recently claimed that Wilt, during his best years, was way better than all his contemporaries. And no one wants to claim that Wilt disappeared. But, the facts are, that in the 1969 Finals, he averaged less than 14 points a game; and despite his good defense and rebounds; that isn't close to what West did. No way was he a 1a to West's 1b.

The argument about Wilt and Baylor being All-Stars earlier that year just has no bearing on how they actually performed in the Finals; where together they averaged less than 30 points (TOGETHER!); while West averaged over 38! by himself. West also did other things extremely well. His Finals performance was all-sided. That's why he was voted the fMVP despite being on the losing team; the only one in history.

Wilt's injured knee: The question is not whether he was injured or not; the question is not whether he might have faked how bad it was or not. Similarly the thing about the coach keeping him (or not) on the bench is irrelevant. The only question here is: Compared to West, how did Wilt actually perform in that series? And the answer, imo, is that West was way better than him. Therefore, West was the only truly Big-Star based on actual performance.

btw for your info: I rank Wilt higher all-time than all his main contemporaries: West, Baylor, the Big "O" and Russell. In fact, higher than everybody he ever played with or against except for KAJ. And I have stated repeatedly that he was in fact WAY better than West, Baylor, O and Russell. Just one of my arguments: Russell basically always had an All-Star Team PLUS the best coach who was WAY better than Hannum and the others; and yet; Wilt (with much less player and coach help) pushed Russell's Celtics thru series that were like wars; and that the Celtics only barely won despite all those huge advantages. Further, that Russell NEVER shut Wilt down, never.

With West playing so well, should Wilt and Baylor have taken shots away from Zeke?

TrueFan420
07-24-2013, 01:49 AM
I have deep respect for AI for one special reason in particular. That year the Lakers steam-rolled a series of very good to great teams; including the Robinson-Duncan Spurs. They won 16 games; and most of them were, as is so often said here, NOT EVEN CLOSE. But in one game, someone did something astonishing against that juggernaut. In that game, iirc, AI was a one-man whirling-dervish that the Lakers were just powerless to slow down much less stop. He had killed his butt in 3 tough series to get to the Finals, and still he fought like crazy. All these other fine teams barely made the Lakers sweat; but the 76ers, mostly because of AI; beat them in overtime - I listened to the game on radio (no TV reception there) and I still can hardly believe what the man did. He never quit.

fyi I'm a smallish kind of guy; so, if anything, I have special sympathy towards the small super-stars like AI (Mugsy Boogs, Isiah Thomas, ...; all else being equaled. *
STILL, he was NOT the fMVP; not even close. Both Kobe and Shaq (or to stay clear of any silliness); both Shaq and Kobe outplayed him. AI was not even close to being Shaq's equal. Therefore, based on my criteria: EITHER:
1) The best player (by a wide margin) on the winning team; OR
2) The best player I(by a wide margin) on the losing team AND better than any player on the other team.

AI doesn't qualify for the top of my list. Outstanding performance? Clearly. Top 15 "One-Man" Shows in the Finals? Maybe yes (let's discuss this further, no?). Top 5? No way. Better than the five in the OP? NO WAY.

* I played a ton of basketball from late grammar school, thru every single day for hours in high school and college and for decades afterwards: I was the typical crazy gym rat.

Was I any good? No! Why? Just too short, too slow, and I had so little lift, we used to joke about my "negative vertical leap" hehe. But I was always a great team-mate; and I often got picked up to play in games where other better-individual players weren't. In other words, if I have one single over-riding bias (bias as in a less than 100% objective outlook); it would be in favor of a better teammate over a lesser one. That's why I have Magic way up on the GOAT list; Larry as well ... Perhaps more than most, I emphasize assist-men and great passers.

According to your new criteria it makes more sense but you should have a mod change the title too or re word it. It comes off like your saying the players on the list have to have been the only big star but go on to list two players that had significant players on their team. Now if they struggled in the series ok but please clarify.

Swift Game
07-24-2013, 02:10 AM
MODS, A LITTLE HELP, OR AT LEAST ADVICE, PLEASE.
What seemed self-evident to me; is clearly NOT to almost everybody else. I had in mind two criteria as the qualifying "rules" for this list; but I did NOT include them in the OP until just now.

I have tried to make the change easy to see; by adding it to the bottom of the OP; and separating it from the above earlier stuff with a dashed line, like: "- - - - - - - - - ".

My question/request: if there is any way that people can be better alerted to this necessary clarification on my part, I sure would appreciate it if you could "get that done", carry that out for me.
Thanx
Pablo

I have to say man there are a lot of idiot posters in these forums that post garbage and never make a case for the point they are trying to make.

Cheers for making valid points to your opinion and being as unbiased as possible. Much respect for basketball knowledge as I did not personally get to see the greats of the past. I started following basketball and sports in the late 80's and I am in my early 30's now. I can talk ball for hours and one topic that always draws my attention is the greats of the 80's vs the superstars of today. My comparison is the top 5 of the 80's vs the top 5 of this era.

I would assume the starting 5 of the 80's would be..

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Barkley- K. Malone - McHale or worthy or you take you pick here..
Kareem or Hakeem...Honorable mentions Moses Malone/Ewing

vs.

Kobe
Lebron
Nowitski -- Garnett honorable mention...Dirk was always the main guy on his squad..
Duncan
Shaq

I think this would be a very close matchup and kind of cool to compare. How do you see this one playing out...

I think Lebron vs. Magic would be interesting because Lebron is sort of a hybrid and can hurt you a lot of different ways...Magic however was probably the best combo big to ever play the game and he would find a way to measure and exploit weakness in the defense. Always respect Magic for his Rookie Performance in the Finals against the Sixers on the road...Some say he may be the greatest of all time with that performance...

Wait a minute...I think I accidenty stumbled on a point to this thread...lol...that was no intentional...You have to include Magic as having arguably the best Finals performance on the road in Philly...I got to see tape of that game...Very impressive for Rookie to do that...I think I found your answer.. Any other rookies come to mind that did what Magic did?

MJ vs. Kobe would be interesting...almost cancel each other out on the offensive end, and I would give Kobe the edge on shooting range and ball handling skills..Give the edge to Jordan on defense and his will to get to the basket, and the clutch play has to go to Jordan as well even though kobe is not to bad himself...

Bird vs. Dirk...not sure which way to go here but I am pretty sure that Bird could not guard Dirk and vice versa...need some insight on this one...I know Bird was one of the ultimate competitors even though he did not have the athletic ability. Toss up.

Duncan vs ...Barkley of Malone...I think here is where the new school has the advantage and Duncan would be impossible to stop...Not sure if any of these guys can hold him especially of Kareem would have to check shaq...this is where the scales would tip in my opinion..

Shaq vs. Kareem....Kareem is arguably one of the greatest centers of all time if not the greatest. I have to say though I have never seen a force Like Shaq before. I mean I have seen shaq take 2,3 even 4 guys to the basket and literally go over them or carry them for the ride...Can kareem hold shaq at all? I don't know about that...Kareem was also almost unguardable with his sky hook and that would be his main advantage against shaq...I would take shaq personally but please convince me other wise....

Let me know what you guys think..

Swift Game
07-24-2013, 02:18 AM
There are a lot of great PG's that I did not mention, but for the sake of argument we can throw in Isiah Thomas or john stockon vs...Steve Nash Chris Paul or Ai.. I would take Nash/Paul over AI myself as volume scoring pg's do not last that long.

And the teams mentioned above absolutely do no need a scoring pg but a floor leader that can get others involved.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-24-2013, 03:42 AM
MODS, A LITTLE HELP, OR AT LEAST ADVICE, PLEASE.
What seemed self-evident to me; is clearly NOT to almost everybody else. I had in mind two criteria as the qualifying "rules" for this list; but I did NOT include them in the OP until just now.

I have tried to make the change easy to see; by adding it to the bottom of the OP; and separating it from the above earlier stuff with a dashed line, like: "- - - - - - - - - ".

My question/request: if there is any way that people can be better alerted to this necessary clarification on my part, I sure would appreciate it if you could "get that done", carry that out for me.
Thanx
Pablo

Try posting the criteria in the beginning of the post instead and THEN posting the players. Be forewarned though that many posters here just read the title and hit reply, barely reading the post and sometimes skipping it all together. Sad, I know, but nothing we can do about it. Just ignore some of the one line answers from posters that clearly have put no thought into their responses.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-24-2013, 03:52 AM
Swift game, I hope posters don't just quote your post and point out one or two sentences thy dont like (Kobe, mj) and disregard everything else.

Some points I wanted to make though: shouldn't Jason Kidd qualify as part of that point guard list. You mentioned you didn need a scoring pg wih that lineup, yet you included AI. Kidd was a walkin triple double in his prime an could help guard the likes of magic compared to the shorter and lighter modern PGs you mentioned.

I also believe that if you include a younger KG, he could easily play at the 3 and help guard bird and be an all around guy on both ends of the court. You said that dirk has always been the best player but many would argue that Garnett always was too except for when Rondo got better. dirk just never had the luxury of playing with a rising young star as he aged. A lineup of Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan, and shaq would be a dominant force against that 80s team. Kobe and shaq could provide the bulk of the scorin while the other 3 focus on the passing and defense and intangibles

Swift Game
07-24-2013, 04:09 AM
Swift game, I hope posters don't just quote your post and point out one or two sentences thy dont like (Kobe, mj) and disregard everything else.

Some points I wanted to make though: shouldn't Jason Kidd qualify as part of that point guard list. You mentioned you didn need a scoring pg wih that lineup, yet you included AI. Kidd was a walkin triple double in his prime an could help guard the likes of magic compared to the shorter and lighter modern PGs you mentioned.

I also believe that if you include a younger KG, he could easily play at the 3 and help guard bird and be an all around guy on both ends of the court. You said that dirk has always been the best player but many would argue that Garnett always was too except for when Rondo got better. dirk just never had the luxury of playing with a rising young star as he aged. A lineup of Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan, and shaq would be a dominant force against that 80s team. Kobe and shaq could provide the bulk of the scorin while the other 3 focus on the passing and defense and intangibles

Yeah, not trying to make this about MJ vs. Kobe debate.

More trying to have some insight on the total comparison of the players mentioned. I also incorporated magic as one of ghe greatest performances in the finals.

Your right though, Jason Kidd did slip my mind, he would also be great with that lineup. Kidd was also an under rated defender. I know some of the old school fans would have a lot to say about the 80's 5 mentioned. Just trying to have fun with this comparison.

No doubt about kg being great, the best I saw of him was when he was mvp with the wolves, he was unstoppable at one time. Just mentioned dirk because they would need to spread the floor with potential doubles on shaq or Duncan. Kg one of the best players of this era no doubt about it.

PhillyFaninLA
07-24-2013, 06:07 AM
deleted. gave incorrect information

PhillyFaninLA
07-24-2013, 06:08 AM
Allen Iverson was the only star and had a nice finals, Lebron in Cleveland was the only star.....1 star does not typically win a title.

PhillyFaninLA
07-24-2013, 06:14 AM
69 Lakers roster, multiple stars

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
40 Cliff Anderson SG 6-2 200 September 7, 1944 1 Saint Joseph's University
22 Elgin Baylor SF 6-5 225 September 16, 1934 10 Seattle University
52 Jay Carty PF 6-8 220 July 4, 1941 R Oregon State University
13 Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 275 August 21, 1936 9 University of Kansas
31 Mel Counts PF 7-0 230 October 16, 1941 4 Oregon State University
12 Freddie Crawford SG 6-4 189 December 23, 1941 2 St. Bonaventure University
21 Johnny Egan PG 5-11 180 January 31, 1939 7 Providence College
24 Keith Erickson SG 6-5 195 April 19, 1944 3 University of California, Los Angeles
33 Tom Hawkins SF 6-5 210 December 22, 1936 9 University of Notre Dame
30 Bill Hewitt PF 6-7 210 August 8, 1944 R University of Southern California
44 Jerry West SG 6-2 175 May 28, 1938 8 West Virginia University

75 Warrios, You can make a case for Barry

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
24 Rick Barry SF 6-7 205 March 28, 1944 8 University of Miami
21 Butch Beard PG 6-3 185 May 4, 1947 4 University of Louisville
22 Steve Bracey SG 6-1 175 August 1, 1950 2 University of Tulsa
32 Bill Bridges PF 6-6 228 April 4, 1939 12 University of Kansas
40 Derrek Dickey PF 6-7 218 March 20, 1951 1 University of Cincinnati
15 Charles Dudley PG 6-2 180 March 5, 1950 1 University of Washington
10 Charles Johnson SG 6-0 170 March 31, 1949 2 University of California
52 George Johnson C 6-11 205 December 18, 1948 2 Dillard University
34 Frank Kendrick SF 6-6 198 September 11, 1950 R Purdue University
23 Jeff Mullins SG 6-4 190 March 18, 1942 10 Duke University
44 Clifford Ray C 6-9 230 January 21, 1949 3 University of Oklahoma
20 Phil Smith SG 6-4 185 April 22, 1952 R University of San Francisco
41 Jamaal Wilkes SF 6-6 190 May 2, 1953 R University of California, Los Angeles

77 Trailblazers, like Warriors its debatel

10 Corky Calhoun SF 6-7 210 November 1, 1950 4 University of Pennsylvania
16 Johnny Davis SG 6-2 170 October 21, 1955 R University of Dayton
3 Herm Gilliam SG 6-3 190 May 5, 1946 7 Purdue University
30 Bob Gross SF 6-6 200 August 3, 1953 1 California State University, Long Beach
14 Lionel Hollins PG 6-3 185 October 19, 1953 1 Arizona State University
34 Robin Jones C 6-9 225 February 2, 1954 R Saint Louis University
20 Maurice Lucas PF 6-9 215 February 18, 1952 2 Marquette University
22 Clyde Mayes PF 6-8 225 March 17, 1953 1 Furman University
36 Lloyd Neal PF 6-7 225 December 10, 1950 4 Tennessee State University
15 Larry Steele SG 6-5 180 May 5, 1949 5 University of Kentucky
13 Dave Twardzik PG 6-1 175 September 20, 1950 4 Old Dominion University
42 Wally Walker SF 6-7 190 July 18, 1954 R University of Virginia
32 Bill Walton C 6-11 210 November 5, 1952 2 University of California, Los Angeles

94 Rockets, multiple stars

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
1 Scott Brooks PG 5-11 165 July 31, 1965 5 University of California, Irvine
50 Matt Bullard PF 6-10 215 June 5, 1967 3 University of Iowa
10 Sam Cassell PG 6-3 185 November 18, 1969 R Florida State University
35 Earl Cureton PF 6-9 210 September 3, 1957 10 University of Detroit Mercy
17 Mario Elie SF 6-5 210 November 26, 1963 3 American International College
7 Carl Herrera PF 6-9 215 December 14, 1966 2 University of Houston
25 Robert Horry SF 6-9 220 August 25, 1970 1 University of Alabama
21 Chris Jent SF 6-7 220 January 11, 1970 R Ohio State University
11 Vernon Maxwell SG 6-4 180 September 12, 1965 5 University of Florida
34 Hakeem Olajuwon C 7-0 255 January 21, 1963 9 University of Houston
3 Richard Petruska C 6-10 260 January 25, 1969 R University of California, Los Angeles
42 Eric Riley C 7-0 245 June 2, 1970 R University of Michigan
20 Larry Robinson SG 6-3 180 January 11, 1968 3 Centenary College of Louisiana
30 Kenny Smith PG 6-3 170 March 8, 1965 6 University of North Carolina
33 Otis Thorpe PF 6-9 225 August 5, 1962 9 Providence College

Mavs 2011

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
8 Alexis Ajinca C 7-0 220 May 6, 1988 2
11 Jose Barea PG 6-0 175 June 26, 1984 4 Northeastern University
3 Rodrigue Beaubois PG 6-0 170 February 24, 1988 1
13 Corey Brewer SG 6-9 185 March 5, 1986 3 University of Florida
4 Caron Butler SF 6-7 217 March 13, 1980 8 University of Connecticut
35 Brian Cardinal SF 6-8 245 May 2, 1977 10 Purdue University
6 Tyson Chandler C 7-1 235 October 2, 1982 9
33 Brendan Haywood C 7-0 268 November 27, 1979 9 University of North Carolina
20 Dominique Jones PG 6-4 215 October 15, 1988 R University of South Florida
2 Jason Kidd PG 6-4 205 March 23, 1973 16 University of California
28 Ian Mahinmi C 6-11 230 November 5, 1986 2
0 Shawn Marion SF 6-7 220 May 7, 1978 11 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
21 Steve Novak SF 6-10 220 June 13, 1983 4 Marquette University
41 Dirk Nowitzki PF 7-0 237 June 19, 1978 12
7 Sasha Pavlovic SF 6-8 220 November 15, 1983 7
92 DeShawn Stevenson SG 6-5 210 April 3, 1981 10
16 Peja Stojakovic SF 6-9 220 June 9, 1977 12
31 Jason Terry SG 6-2 176 September 15, 1977 11 University of Arizona

JerseyPalahniuk
07-24-2013, 07:28 AM
Dude you just copied and pasted the rosters of the teams that the 5 players the OP played on. That doesn't help your case in any way. Read his criteria, post any sort of reasoning or analysis or your post will be ignored

PhillyFaninLA
07-24-2013, 07:41 AM
Dude you just copied and pasted the rosters of the teams that the 5 players the OP played on. That doesn't help your case in any way. Read his criteria, post any sort of reasoning or analysis or your post will be ignored

Ignored like you are here...no wait you are commenting on it

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:08 PM
What's up Pablo! I see you're starting threads now. I don't have much to add to the conversation. I don't really remember anyone that hasn't been brought up. Still enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work!

What's up Cracka! Look at my amazing history on PSD NBA.
(I say all the following with the "tone" of self-mockery and the spirit of sharing some good fun and laughs):
Day 1: (already) WIN THE AWARD OF: WEIRDEST POSTER ON PSD (I kick *** don't I; weird = good?)
Day 2: (already) GRADUATE UP TO THE AWARD OF: MOST UNIQUE PERSON ON THE PLANET (good or bad?)
Day 3: OPEN MY FIRST THREADS
(in 3 days no less; phew! and now for the near-future):
Day 4: ??? I'M AIMING FOR MOD-SHIP! (Look out "fellow" mods!)
Day 5: I'M THE NEW OWNER OF PSD NBA (afterall weird and unique are good, no?)
Day 6: I KICK-THE-CAN ("The old 'fart' just ran out of gas")

What'd ya say Cracka ???

btw The NBA has been around for almost 70 years. And yet despite all those years; the possible candidates for the OP, let's call it, "Run-Away fMVP" are very, very few.
We've identified 4 clear Run-Away fMVP's on winning teams: Barry, Walton, Olajuwon & Nowitski (only 4); and
We've identified 1 clear Run-Away fMVP on a losing team: West.

Pretty darn interesting wouldn't you all say? We've got 4-5 total Run-Away MVP's in 70 years. Wow.
LESSON 1: THE NBA GAME IS A TEAM GAME (almost without exceptions; especially the higher you look);
LESSON 2: West, Barry, Walton, Olajuwon & Nowitski, once each, accomplished something amazing.

I'm enjoying the hell out of this discussion; even with those who either strongly disagree with something I've posited OR seem to be trolling (almost nothing serious in this last case, hurrah!).

So, why don't we focus secondarily on whether/how West, Barry, Walton, Olajuwon & Nowitski did their special thing; and focus primarily on 5-10 Second-Tier Candidates for "NEAR Run-Away fMVP" of HONORARY MENTION:

The following "candidates" have been "nominated" (most with little or no argumentation, as yet)

Magic Johnson 1980 (rookie year)
MJ 1991, 1998
AI 2000
Jason Kidd 2001, 2002
Duncan 2003

FRIENDS (real ones or not-so real ones included): Think guys/gals. Is this really it? Are there no other possibly worth candidates for HONORABLE MENTION in the tiny Pantheon Of The Greats Known As:
"THE TOP RUNAWAY-fMVP 's * IN NBA FINALS HISTORY. [* or NEAR "Runaway-fMVP 's]

About the proposed candidates:

Magic 1980: YES he had a game 7 for the ages. YES he had a rookie whole-Finals for the ages. True he was awarded the fMVP. BUT I strongly disagree with that year's award going to Magic (love him though I do). KAJ was the strong fMVP for the first six games. Magic's good games 1-6 PLUS his monster game 7, imo were NOT MORE VALUABLE than KAJ's very good games 1-6. So, if I'm right, than KAJ should have gotten the fMVP and Magic wouldn't qualify for this list. In fact, because both played so outstandingly, each cancels the other out for a list of "RUNAWAY" STAR. No? BUT I don't necessarily want to shut-down any further discussion of this.

MJ: 1991 and 1998. Certainly, MJ was such a dominant force (as indicated by the fact that MJ is virtually every single GOAT list as at least top 3). But what about Scottie Pippen. Pippen was almost unique by 1991: his defense was legendary with people debating to this day whether he might have been even better than MJ. And with MJ carrying such a massive % of the scoring-load; Pippen often took the assignment of trying to shut down their opponents main scoring threat. But Pippen was much more than just one of the all-time great defenders. He was a max. teammate: passing, switching, graciously taking the 2nd spot, attacking the basket when needed. He did it all. I could be wrong; but I'm pretty sure, that by 1991 Pippen was already so great a player that me effectively eliminates MJ from this particular list (there aren't many lists MJ gets eliminated from). Pippen is virtually universally regarded as one of the Top 50 NBA All-Timers; and 1991-1998 were, by far, his best years. Still, exactly how well did he play in the 1991 and 1998 Finals; especially compared to MJ's monster series-long performances - for only this can really answer the question of whether MJ should be on this list.
So PSD-ers, please remind us of MJ "VS" Pippen in the 1991 and 1998 Finals.

AI 2000: I and we've have already discussed this a lot. My main point: AI was NOT the "Runaway Best-Player" in those finals; Shaq was. This dis-qualifies AI from this list. However, Honorable Mention?

Kidd 2001, 2002: Only JerseyP... has raised this. My "objection" would be that, while he DID play great AND was Clearly YES the Runaway Star of his team, the Nets; He was far from being the Runaway Star of the Finals Series; both Shaq and Kobe outplayed him. No? So, agreeing with Jersey, he can't be near the top of this list; but Honorable Mention?

Duncan 2003: I have to admit that I DIDN'T see that year's finals. No one has commented on if Duncan was the Runaway fMVP; was he was better than both Parker and Ginobili? If so, he DOES qualify for the list; Top 5? I'd guess NOT; Top 10, Maybe? What say ye PSD NBA posters?

A NOTE ABOUT RECENT-TIMES BIAS. As is plainly seen from this list of possible candidates, they all come from the last 33 years (let's round this out and call it, the Second Half of NBA History); so that's automatically biased against the First Half of NBA History. Can any of our "older-timers" here suggest some possibly worthy candidates from the NBA's first 35 or so years? An even stronger "Recent-Times" Bias is that we have 4 of these 6 "candidates" from just the last 15 years or less. I am NOT criticizing those who proposed these "candidates"; afterall you mostly work with what you know / have experienced. Actually I thank these "proposers". Let's just keep in mind that, statistically & logically, there were probably a near-equal number of worth candidates from earlier NBA eras.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:28 PM
lol im dead..you tried to bold the title.

Hey LAKobeBryant, what's up?
Would you be so kind as to explain what you meant here? Are you expressing surprise that I (finally) figured out how to bold the title? Well, I can't even claim much credit for that (if that's indeed what you're joking about). JerseyP... sent me a note that explained to me how to do it ... so "all honor to Jersy" and all laughs on me!
Fair enough? Please do write back.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:30 PM
I agree with the Rick Barry being the only true superstar on his team. Jamaal Wilkes was no schmuck though.

YES, they didn't call him "Silk" for nothing - what a sweet, sweet stroke!

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:33 PM
LOL AI had the best help in his conference.

Hey Chronz, what's up?
Care to elaborate about AI's help being the best. Were they pretty good; or did they just seem pretty good because the East was just so god-awful that year? You're one of my favorite posters (when you're not being such an .... hehe).
Thanx,
Pablo

kdspurman
07-24-2013, 12:34 PM
Duncan 2003: I have to admit that I DIDN'T see that year's finals. No one has commented on if Duncan was the Runaway fMVP; was he was better than both Parker and Ginobili? If so, he DOES qualify for the list; Top 5? I'd guess NOT; Top 10, Maybe? What say ye PSD NBA posters?

A NOTE ABOUT RECENT-TIMES BIAS. As is plainly seen from this list of possible candidates, they all come from the last 33 years (let's round this out and call it, the Second Half of NBA History); so that's automatically biased against the First Half of NBA History. Can any of our "older-timers" here suggest some possibly worthy candidates from the NBA's first 35 or so years? An even stronger "Recent-Times" Bias is that we have 4 of these 6 "candidates" from just the last 15 years or less. I am NOT criticizing those who proposed these "candidates"; afterall you mostly work with what you know / have experienced. Actually I thank these "proposers". Let's just keep in mind that, statistically & logically, there were probably a near-equal number of worth candidates from earlier NBA eras.

It wasn't even close (regarding Duncan in 03) he was easily the runaway FMVP. He made everyone on that team better, passing was great and dominant defensively. (set the record for most blocks in an NBA finals series 32 total in 6 games)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#playoffs_advanced::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#playoffs_per_game::none

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:46 PM
With West playing so well, should Wilt and Baylor have taken shots away from Zeke?

Hey, MightyHumph - what's happnin' dude?
I was lucky enough to watch every second of that series. iirc it wasn't so much that Wilt and Elgin deferred to West because he was so hot (although it certainly could appear that way). It was the both of them were simply NOT as ALMIGHT-HOT as was West. They had sub-par series (for them; not for most very-good-quality NBA players). It happens to almost everybody. When a player is faced with a teammate going ballistic, their best move is to contribute in the most complimentary way(s) possible. Wilt and Elgin had NO ego problem taking on those roles. While, at the beginning of that year, there were the inevitable small-frictions and choppiness-of-play that accompanies the joining together of new teammates (especially if they're stars; particularly if they're super-stars); by the end of the season and into those play-offs, West, Baylor and Wilt were "clicking" on all cylinders. From game to game they'd "take turns".

I'm sure each of them didn't really "give-a-sh__" by that time in their careers, about being jealous due to another's hot-hand; all they wanted, perhaps more desperately than any other super-stars in history, was the CHIP; and each would do anything to get it together (along with their teammates, coaches and fans). People here should know that I rank Wilt way up there; and that I love Baylor as much as West and rank them exactly equally; so, if, in speaking of the 1969 Finals, I rate Elgin (and Wilt) as lower than "1b" to West's "1"; there were other years and Finals; where the roles were reversed and I recognize those occurences fact without resistance.
Thanx,
Pablo

P.S. Thanx for reminding me/us of that nickname. In those days, everybody knew. But others have since acquired it; and I had temporarily forgotten. Failing memory will do that to; so, wait 'til you're my age, hehe.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 12:51 PM
It wasn't even close (regarding Duncan in 03) he was easily the runaway FMVP. He made everyone on that team better, passing was great and dominant defensively. (set the record for most blocks in an NBA finals series 32 total in 6 games)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#playoffs_advanced::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#playoffs_per_game::none

Thanx so much for this quick response and the links. ThIS IS exactly what I/we were hoping for from you. Now all we need is for other posters to respond to your position pro/con. Meanwhile, would you mind addressing how Parker and Ginobili DID perform; i.e., how would you rate their performances, given that, for you, neither was a "1b" to Duncan's "1".
Thanx for both what you've just posted and, in advance, if you post some more,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:17 PM
I have to say man there are a lot of idiot posters in these forums that post garbage and never make a case for the point they are trying to make.

Cheers for making valid points to your opinion and being as unbiased as possible. Much respect for basketball knowledge as I did not personally get to see the greats of the past. I started following basketball and sports in the late 80's and I am in my early 30's now. I can talk ball for hours and one topic that always draws my attention is the greats of the 80's vs the superstars of today. My comparison is the top 5 of the 80's vs the top 5 of this era.

I would assume the starting 5 of the 80's would be..

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Barkley- K. Malone - McHale or worthy or you take you pick here..
Kareem or Hakeem...Honorable mentions Moses Malone/Ewing

vs.

Kobe
Lebron
Nowitski -- Garnett honorable mention...Dirk was always the main guy on his squad..
Duncan
Shaq

I think this would be a very close matchup and kind of cool to compare. How do you see this one playing out...

I think Lebron vs. Magic would be interesting because Lebron is sort of a hybrid and can hurt you a lot of different ways...Magic however was probably the best combo big to ever play the game and he would find a way to measure and exploit weakness in the defense. Always respect Magic for his Rookie Performance in the Finals against the Sixers on the road...Some say he may be the greatest of all time with that performance...

Wait a minute...I think I accidenty stumbled on a point to this thread...lol...that was no intentional...You have to include Magic as having arguably the best Finals performance on the road in Philly...I got to see tape of that game...Very impressive for Rookie to do that...I think I found your answer.. Any other rookies come to mind that did what Magic did?

MJ vs. Kobe would be interesting...almost cancel each other out on the offensive end, and I would give Kobe the edge on shooting range and ball handling skills..Give the edge to Jordan on defense and his will to get to the basket, and the clutch play has to go to Jordan as well even though kobe is not to bad himself...

Bird vs. Dirk...not sure which way to go here but I am pretty sure that Bird could not guard Dirk and vice versa...need some insight on this one...I know Bird was one of the ultimate competitors even though he did not have the athletic ability. Toss up.

Duncan vs ...Barkley of Malone...I think here is where the new school has the advantage and Duncan would be impossible to stop...Not sure if any of these guys can hold him especially of Kareem would have to check shaq...this is where the scales would tip in my opinion..

Shaq vs. Kareem....Kareem is arguably one of the greatest centers of all time if not the greatest. I have to say though I have never seen a force Like Shaq before. I mean I have seen shaq take 2,3 even 4 guys to the basket and literally go over them or carry them for the ride...Can kareem hold shaq at all? I don't know about that...Kareem was also almost unguardable with his sky hook and that would be his main advantage against shaq...I would take shaq personally but please convince me other wise....

Let me know what you guys think..

Hey Swift Game, how they hangin'? (below = if you're male; hopefully not too low = if you're a female)
Please believe me that I'm joking in what I say next:
"Damn dude, it's gonna take a damn book to respond to you!"
"And besides, who gave you the right to post such a long one; I though I only got to do that???"

YOU SAID: "Cheers for making valid points to your opinion and being as unbiased as possible. Much respect for basketball knowledge as I did not personally get to see the greats of the past."

I ANSWER: Thanx for the "cheers". I like to think I'm about as unbiased as can be, thanx for thinking so. Thanx for the "much respect"; Me being such a rabid fan that I became "knowledgeable": First, it was my dad's fault; then, later, as I grew from boy to man, it was the fault of the NBA greats - the general beauty of them performing their skills PLUS the individual skills themselves: just wouldn't let me take my eyes off the TV or the NBA magazines; or my ears away from the radio (when, infrequently there was no TV).

Anyway, we gotta move this, your post, to a new thread, no? As soon as I get the chance, I will very enthusiastically respond to your "All-Star Team vs All-Star Team", 80's VS Today. I can hardly wait; it's gonna be a blast! To tell you the truth, I JUST LOVE Decade-Team VS Decade-Team Comparisons; (especially, if we can all keep our "My Decade Was The Best" biases down to a dull-roar, hehe).

Just one example AND using just 2 of the 5 positions: West & the Big "O" VS MJ & Magic (LET HER RIP, Mo'Fo's!).

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:20 PM
There are a lot of great PG's that I did not mention, but for the sake of argument we can throw in Isiah Thomas or john stockon vs...Steve Nash Chris Paul or Ai.. I would take Nash/Paul over AI myself as volume scoring pg's do not last that long.

And the teams mentioned above absolutely do no need a scoring pg but a floor leader that can get others involved.

I agree with these thoughts, pretty much completely. Keep up the good work Swifty.

bagwell368
07-24-2013, 01:24 PM
BTW that Finals series: Baylor averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting...while Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg (his lowest BY FAR at that point in his career), on .545 shooting.

.385 shooting while not that good, isn't that far off of .441 the league average. 15.4/9.2/4.1 is what Baylor averaged.

Still obviously West was intense. Did anyone mention the injury he sustained around game 5? Don't forget that the Celts were on fumes that year. The old guard was all but finished (Russell, Sam Jones were poor that year). They were led by Don Nelson (shooting %, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell)

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:29 PM
Seeing as I've (hopefully) responded to everybody else who has so graciously posted in this thread, that leaves only "Jersey".

Hey Jersey,
Thanx a lot for your whole series of comments, responses, defenses, and explanations (both here and separately). A very minor point: You may have noticed that I, basically, never get upset. Notice that? Especially given that people type things they don't mean OR don't explain themselves so well * OR do get upset only to be less upset later ... so perhaps you could take it just a bit "softer"; a very, very very minor suggestion in the face of your exemplary over-all behavior. Of course, the same suggestion (not so minor in many cases) applies to many, many of us here at PSD NBA; even to almost all of society.

We agree so much it's almost like you're my alter-ego here. Could it be that one of is the dupe of the other; or even more interestingly that both of us are??? But, if true, how will we ever get to the bottom of that???

Keep it up, my new and good friend,
Pablo

* Witness my very first post here at PSD NBA. How I wish I could just erase one particular (and unintended) insulting part of it.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:34 PM
.385 shooting while not that good, isn't that far off of .441 the league average. 15.4/9.2/4.1 is what Baylor averaged.

Still obviously West was intense. Did anyone mention the injury he sustained around game 5? Don't forget that the Celts were on fumes that year. The old guard was all but finished (Russell, Sam Jones were poor that year). They were led by Don Nelson (shooting %, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell)

Hey Bagwell,
Thanx for posting. This gives the opportunity to say that, imo, you are one of the sharpest posters here. Well, of course, we don't/won't always agree; you usually provide analysis that is deeper-than-average and well-reasoned.
Thanx,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 01:34 PM
To all,
Am I kissing some serious butt, or what?

MY LATEST AWARD (I AM averaging one a day!) BROWN-NOSER OF THE WEEK (it's unanimous folks!!!)

In the same (self-mocking) spirit, I wanna nominate someone for PSD NBA MVP. Who? Who else, Me!

Check it out. I just like MJ; I'm racking up all the "Mid-Week" awards on my way to unanimous selection; unstoppable (barring "kicking the can" - but then I'd get the "sympathy, post-morten" vote).


Another Likely (?) Award: Most Grandpa-ish MoFo On Here?
Thanx for your votes, hehe
Pablo

3RDASYSTEM
07-24-2013, 01:35 PM
There ya go, added a reason. But the thread title was top 5. Not top 5 plus honorable mention. And it discussed their performance in the Finals itself. Getting to the Finals wasn't a criteria.

Although Iverson scored a ton of points (35.6) he was the only option there. He took 162 shots in 5 games, averaged only 3.8 assists and shot 40%. And again LOST in 5 games.

While Jerry West also Lost in the 1969 finals, his performance was so incredible that he was named NBA Finals MVP. He is the ONLY player to ever receive that "honor."

EDIT: Checked, he is indeed the only player to get the MVP on a losing team.

That's why I know you and half the people haven't played a lick of ball

who did WEST have as a supporting cast, now if he had players on the lowest level of MCKIE/SNOW as individual players then its no doubt better, but SHAQ and la only lost to IVERSON that yr alone in playoffs, he had to shoot 40x in game 1 against la

if that isn't the worst supporting cast ever than I don't know what is, and last I checked LA always had a stacked team in the FINALS, so im sure he blows IVERSON out the water far as team support

let me know when 1 player has to shoot 40x just to keep his team in the game, not to win the game, but he was able to 'win' games as the only scorer, under 6ft

you guys amaze me for penalizing players who have to shoot 30x a game for his team to compete, they usually don't even sniff the playoffs let alone a FINALS app.

3RDASYSTEM
07-24-2013, 01:40 PM
Hey Chronz, what's up?
Care to elaborate about AI's help being the best. Were they pretty good; or did they just seem pretty good because the East was just so god-awful that year? You're one of my favorite posters (when you're not being such an .... hehe).
Thanx,
Pablo

chronz probably said the same thing about TMAC in ORL and KG in MINNY

funny thing about people like chronz is they say todays defense is better but that's what IVERSON leaned on? the defensive scheme that IVERSON led the league in steals for 3 straight yrs and a 10 steal playoff game record

the same gamble that shot blockers and other players take, he gets penalized for it

you know he is too damn good

sometimes I feel people say things on here to get a reaction, they follow my suit, copy cats

kdspurman
07-24-2013, 02:08 PM
Thanx so much for this quick response and the links. ThIS IS exactly what I/we were hoping for from you. Now all we need is for other posters to respond to your position pro/con. Meanwhile, would you mind addressing how Parker and Ginobili DID perform; i.e., how would you rate their performances, given that, for you, neither was a "1b" to Duncan's "1".
Thanx for both what you've just posted and, in advance, if you post some more,
Pablo

That was only Parker's 2nd season in the league, so he was still pretty raw in terms of being able to play at a very high level. In fact, in Game 6 of the finals, he was benched for Speedy Claxton during critical stretches of the game because he just was not playing well at all.

That was also Manu's first season, so though he came in the league @ 25 years old with a lot of experience playing overseas, he was still new to the NBA and like TP went thru a bit of a learning curve. He still got decent minutes about 28-29 a game in the finals, but he was one who also struggled during several games. He had easily his best finals performance against the Pistons in 05 after he had a couple years under his belt and gotten more trust from Pop & the team.

Some have even argued Stephen Jackson was the 2nd best player, each of these 3 guys (TP, MG, SJ) all had games where they were decent/good and all had games where they were flat out bad. Jackson had his best game in Game 6 where he hit several big 3's to get the Spurs back in the game and give them the lead for good. (Duncan also had a near quadruple double that game with 21 pts, 20 reb, 10 asts, and 8 blocks)

Here's the #'s for a few guys from that finals series. The links I put before were for the playoffs in general, but these are strictly the finals:

Tony Parker:
14 ppg
4.1 ast
3.1 rpg
35%FG

Manu Ginobili:
8.6 ppg
4.5 reb
2 ast
34%FG

Stephen Jackson
10.3 ppg
2.6 ast
4.16 rpg
35FG%

David Robinson
10.8 ppg
7.3 rbp
1.8 bpg
58%FG

Tim Duncan
24.1 ppg
17 rpg
5.3 bpg
5.3 ast
49.5%FG

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 02:21 PM
.385 shooting while not that good, isn't that far off of .441 the league average. 15.4/9.2/4.1 is what Baylor averaged.

Still obviously West was intense. Did anyone mention the injury he sustained around game 5? Don't forget that the Celts were on fumes that year. The old guard was all but finished (Russell, Sam Jones were poor that year). They were led by Don Nelson (shooting %, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell)

I gotta seriously disagree with you here about Elgin. .385 IS significantly lower than .441 (the league average; shooting at more than 50 points below league average is BAD.) And, for Elgin himself - far below his peak, or even his career average.

You say: "15.4/9.2/4.1 is what Baylor averaged." But those first two numbers are pretty close to only HALF of his career-averages: 27.0 ppg, and way more rpg (excuse me for not looking this up; but he was a great, high-quantity rebounder in a high-rebound era.)
My point: this was far below vintage Elgin; quite good for 90% of players; but NOT for him; especially in the Finals. This DOES further strengthen the case for West, though.

On the other hand, you're absolutely right that the Celtics were transitioning from their old-guard to the new. But still, Nelson and Bailey were very good players; and Hondo ends up being ranked in virtually everybody's All-Time Top 25 for good reason; talk about a complete player and completely accepting doing what-ever-it-takes complimentary-wise. Near the end of that Celtic dynasty, Hondo was clearly the team MVP.

About West's injury in Game 5. It boggles the mind what he did based on what he went thru.
First, CAREER-WISE: prior to these play-offs he had endured the almost-un-endurable (so many Finals losses; so many Game 7 Finals losses. After so many heart-breaks, who, but he, would have continued to battle and with such excellence. He never quit, never.

Second, 1969 FINALS-WISE: He entered the Finals seriously EXHAUSTED (everybody knew this; that's why Russell didn't double-team him the first two games).

Third: WILT & ELGIN PLAY BELOW-PAR FOR THEM: Then both Wilt and Elgin played below their expected normal levels of greatness.

Fourth: THE GAME 4 LOSS. Still another heart-breaker.
Fifth: THE GAME 5 INJURY: 'nuff said.

These 7 games were like 7Xs MJ's "Flu" Game. Yet he cranked it at equal to MJ's Finals best ever. Remarkable.

West had 5 MONSTER games in that one series. Who has ever surpassed that?

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 02:27 PM
That was only Parker's 2nd season in the league, so he was still pretty raw in terms of being able to play at a very high level. In fact, in Game 6 of the finals, he was benched for Speedy Claxton during critical stretches of the game because he just was not playing well at all.

That was also Manu's first season, so though he came in the league @ 25 years old with a lot of experience playing overseas, he was still new to the NBA and like TP went thru a bit of a learning curve. He still got decent minutes about 28-29 a game in the finals, but he was one who also struggled during several games. He had easily his best finals performance against the Pistons in 05 after he had a couple years under his belt and gotten more trust from Pop & the team.

Some have even argued Stephen Jackson was the 2nd best player, each of these 3 guys (TP, MG, SJ) all had games where they were decent/good and all had games where they were flat out bad. Jackson had his best game in Game 6 where he hit several big 3's to get the Spurs back in the game and give them the lead for good. (Duncan also had a near quadruple double that game with 21 pts, 20 reb, 10 asts, and 8 blocks)

Here's the #'s for a few guys from that finals series. The links I put before were for the playoffs in general, but these are strictly the finals:

Tony Parker:
14 ppg
4.1 ast
3.1 rpg
35%FG

Manu Ginobili:
8.6 ppg
4.5 reb
2 ast
34%FG

Stephen Jackson
10.3 ppg
2.6 ast
4.16 rpg
35FG%

David Robinson
10.8 ppg
7.3 rbp
1.8 bpg
58%FG

Tim Duncan
24.1 ppg
17 rpg
5.3 bpg
5.3 ast
49.5%FG

kdspurs
NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You not only responded quickly with all the necessary data/stats; but you have, imo, made your case exquisitely. Duncan 2003 fully deserves inclusion in the:
All-Time Finals One-Man-Wrecking-Crew Performers.
Thanx to you and Timmy,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 02:33 PM
69 Lakers roster, multiple stars

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
40 Cliff Anderson SG 6-2 200 September 7, 1944 1 Saint Joseph's University
22 Elgin Baylor SF 6-5 225 September 16, 1934 10 Seattle University
52 Jay Carty PF 6-8 220 July 4, 1941 R Oregon State University
13 Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 275 August 21, 1936 9 University of Kansas
31 Mel Counts PF 7-0 230 October 16, 1941 4 Oregon State University
12 Freddie Crawford SG 6-4 189 December 23, 1941 2 St. Bonaventure University
21 Johnny Egan PG 5-11 180 January 31, 1939 7 Providence College
24 Keith Erickson SG 6-5 195 April 19, 1944 3 University of California, Los Angeles
33 Tom Hawkins SF 6-5 210 December 22, 1936 9 University of Notre Dame
30 Bill Hewitt PF 6-7 210 August 8, 1944 R University of Southern California
44 Jerry West SG 6-2 175 May 28, 1938 8 West Virginia University

75 Warrios, You can make a case for Barry

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
24 Rick Barry SF 6-7 205 March 28, 1944 8 University of Miami
21 Butch Beard PG 6-3 185 May 4, 1947 4 University of Louisville
22 Steve Bracey SG 6-1 175 August 1, 1950 2 University of Tulsa
32 Bill Bridges PF 6-6 228 April 4, 1939 12 University of Kansas
40 Derrek Dickey PF 6-7 218 March 20, 1951 1 University of Cincinnati
15 Charles Dudley PG 6-2 180 March 5, 1950 1 University of Washington
10 Charles Johnson SG 6-0 170 March 31, 1949 2 University of California
52 George Johnson C 6-11 205 December 18, 1948 2 Dillard University
34 Frank Kendrick SF 6-6 198 September 11, 1950 R Purdue University
23 Jeff Mullins SG 6-4 190 March 18, 1942 10 Duke University
44 Clifford Ray C 6-9 230 January 21, 1949 3 University of Oklahoma
20 Phil Smith SG 6-4 185 April 22, 1952 R University of San Francisco
41 Jamaal Wilkes SF 6-6 190 May 2, 1953 R University of California, Los Angeles

77 Trailblazers, like Warriors its debatel

10 Corky Calhoun SF 6-7 210 November 1, 1950 4 University of Pennsylvania
16 Johnny Davis SG 6-2 170 October 21, 1955 R University of Dayton
3 Herm Gilliam SG 6-3 190 May 5, 1946 7 Purdue University
30 Bob Gross SF 6-6 200 August 3, 1953 1 California State University, Long Beach
14 Lionel Hollins PG 6-3 185 October 19, 1953 1 Arizona State University
34 Robin Jones C 6-9 225 February 2, 1954 R Saint Louis University
20 Maurice Lucas PF 6-9 215 February 18, 1952 2 Marquette University
22 Clyde Mayes PF 6-8 225 March 17, 1953 1 Furman University
36 Lloyd Neal PF 6-7 225 December 10, 1950 4 Tennessee State University
15 Larry Steele SG 6-5 180 May 5, 1949 5 University of Kentucky
13 Dave Twardzik PG 6-1 175 September 20, 1950 4 Old Dominion University
42 Wally Walker SF 6-7 190 July 18, 1954 R University of Virginia
32 Bill Walton C 6-11 210 November 5, 1952 2 University of California, Los Angeles

94 Rockets, multiple stars

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
1 Scott Brooks PG 5-11 165 July 31, 1965 5 University of California, Irvine
50 Matt Bullard PF 6-10 215 June 5, 1967 3 University of Iowa
10 Sam Cassell PG 6-3 185 November 18, 1969 R Florida State University
35 Earl Cureton PF 6-9 210 September 3, 1957 10 University of Detroit Mercy
17 Mario Elie SF 6-5 210 November 26, 1963 3 American International College
7 Carl Herrera PF 6-9 215 December 14, 1966 2 University of Houston
25 Robert Horry SF 6-9 220 August 25, 1970 1 University of Alabama
21 Chris Jent SF 6-7 220 January 11, 1970 R Ohio State University
11 Vernon Maxwell SG 6-4 180 September 12, 1965 5 University of Florida
34 Hakeem Olajuwon C 7-0 255 January 21, 1963 9 University of Houston
3 Richard Petruska C 6-10 260 January 25, 1969 R University of California, Los Angeles
42 Eric Riley C 7-0 245 June 2, 1970 R University of Michigan
20 Larry Robinson SG 6-3 180 January 11, 1968 3 Centenary College of Louisiana
30 Kenny Smith PG 6-3 170 March 8, 1965 6 University of North Carolina
33 Otis Thorpe PF 6-9 225 August 5, 1962 9 Providence College

Mavs 2011

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
8 Alexis Ajinca C 7-0 220 May 6, 1988 2
11 Jose Barea PG 6-0 175 June 26, 1984 4 Northeastern University
3 Rodrigue Beaubois PG 6-0 170 February 24, 1988 1
13 Corey Brewer SG 6-9 185 March 5, 1986 3 University of Florida
4 Caron Butler SF 6-7 217 March 13, 1980 8 University of Connecticut
35 Brian Cardinal SF 6-8 245 May 2, 1977 10 Purdue University
6 Tyson Chandler C 7-1 235 October 2, 1982 9
33 Brendan Haywood C 7-0 268 November 27, 1979 9 University of North Carolina
20 Dominique Jones PG 6-4 215 October 15, 1988 R University of South Florida
2 Jason Kidd PG 6-4 205 March 23, 1973 16 University of California
28 Ian Mahinmi C 6-11 230 November 5, 1986 2
0 Shawn Marion SF 6-7 220 May 7, 1978 11 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
21 Steve Novak SF 6-10 220 June 13, 1983 4 Marquette University
41 Dirk Nowitzki PF 7-0 237 June 19, 1978 12
7 Sasha Pavlovic SF 6-8 220 November 15, 1983 7
92 DeShawn Stevenson SG 6-5 210 April 3, 1981 10
16 Peja Stojakovic SF 6-9 220 June 9, 1977 12
31 Jason Terry SG 6-2 176 September 15, 1977 11 University of Arizona

Thanx philyfaninLA,
It's more than a little useful to be able to look back over those rosters to help clarify this discussion.
Helps the memory banks considerably (at least speaking for myself).
Here's what I remember (better) from those 5 finals, based on those rosters:
1) In all five case, all of them, only one guy played super (the five on our list);
2) In any case where the Finals "super-guy" had other great players on their team, in that series they played below their par; those "isolating" the excellence, by comparison, of the super guy.
3) "Below" the "super-guys" performance; there is a pretty-generalized equality of performance amongst the rest of his more important teammates; i.e., they were pretty equal to each other, as second tier performers.

EXAMPLES:
1 WEST: Baylor and Wilt played at the level of second tier to his brilliance.
2 BARRY: Silk, Beard, Bridges, Ray = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
3 WALTON: Hollins, Lucas, Twardik = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
4 OLAJUWON: Casell, Horry, Thorpe, Ellie, Maxwell = all 2nd tier to his brilliance
5 NOWITSKI: Kidd, Marion, Terry = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
and now, recently added:
6 DUNCAN 2003: Parker and Ginobili = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.

See a pattern, guys/gals?!!
btw If I've over/under -emphasized any of the people listed (or not listed); I don't mind it being pointed out. If I've erred, it's probably a case where I list a possible 2nd-tier performer who really was less than that; a 3rd tier performer in that particular Finals series.

Just let's remember that none of them were all that important; so, let's not flame over clearly secondary issues on a secondary forum which is PSD NBA, ok?

Again, thanx for this, philyfaninLA
Pablo

N.B. I didn't list the 5-6 of them in any particular order, except chronologically for the first 5; then adding Duncan because he's the newest (if you all generally agree) addition. Now, re-reading the list; it occurs to me that it would NOT be the worst ordering/ranking of the 6 of them. What do you-all think?

Shlumpledink
07-24-2013, 02:47 PM
Olajuwon forever.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 03:10 PM
Olajuwon forever.

MJ would agree with you. What a COMPLETE player; and he made all that look so graceful, so effortless.

bagwell368
07-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Let's chop down Iverson.

In the playoffs that year (2000-01) Iverson was (compared to his teammates):

4th in TS% for players at 222 minutes or above. 8th in TS% for players 100 or more minutes

5th in eFG% for players at 222 minutes or above, 8th in eFG% for players at or above 100 minutes

Iverson was FGA: 9.1 for FGM: 23.4 (389%)

Since shooting is Iverson's prime claim to fame, that isn't very good at all, is it?

Can't we agree that if he didn't take his worst 7 FGA's per game, and instead passed off that they would have done better? How come Iverson never thought of that?

According to WS, WS48, ORtg > DRtg difference, Mutombo crushed Iverson

This team was pushed to two 7 games series vs the Raptors (very meh) and the Bucks (not bad, but far from great), and decimated by the Lakers in 5 (beat them 4 straight by an average of 10). Outside of Iverson's impressive Game 1 OT performance he sucked. How can he be nominated or taken seriously when he was pathetic in the Finals 4 out of 5 games?

Wake up.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 07:07 PM
Let's chop down Iverson.

In the playoffs that year (2000-01) Iverson was (compared to his teammates):

4th in TS% for players at 222 minutes or above. 8th in TS% for players 100 or more minutes

5th in eFG% for players at 222 minutes or above, 8th in eFG% for players at or above 100 minutes

Iverson was FGA: 9.1 for FGM: 23.4 (389%)

Since shooting is Iverson's prime claim to fame, that isn't very good at all, is it?

Can't we agree that if he didn't take his worst 7 FGA's per game, and instead passed off that they would have done better? How come Iverson never thought of that?

According to WS, WS48, ORtg > DRtg difference, Mutombo crushed Iverson

This team was pushed to two 7 games series vs the Raptors (very meh) and the Bucks (not bad, but far from great), and decimated by the Lakers in 5 (beat them 4 straight by an average of 10). Outside of Iverson's impressive Game 1 OT performance he sucked. How can he be nominated or taken seriously when he was pathetic in the Finals 4 out of 5 games?

Wake up.

Anyone can propose a player; AI was proposed; I said he had a great game 1; but was not even the second best player in the series; so as a candidate for this very exclusive 5-10 person list could NOT be taken seriously. I left open the possibility of a possible Honorable Mention and called for discussion on this.

You have replied with very useful info; both about the previous series; but especially about the Finals. This Finals info clearly ERASES him from consideration for even Honorable Mention - thanx for the exact kind of info needed in this case.

The two things that stick out the most from the info you provide:
1) AI shot horribly;
2) AI shot worse than all the other 7 Phily players that got any meaningful minutes at all.
THUS, AI shot down his own team. (His one "claim to fame" was his (volume shooting) scoring. It's one thing if everybody can't hit the side of a barn; then there'd be some justification for chucking; but, Phily would have been off if AI had passed instead of shot. imo even more than 7 per game you correctly emphasize.)

"Chop Down" seems about right.

P.S. In your opinion was Mutombo Phily's best player (maybe even by default?) in that Finals?

Any possible rebuttal(s) from AI - supporters?

TheMightyHumph
07-24-2013, 07:25 PM
Thanx philyfaninLA,
It's more than a little useful to be able to look back over those rosters to help clarify this discussion.
Helps the memory banks considerably (at least speaking for myself).
Here's what I remember (better) from those 5 finals, based on those rosters:
1) In all five case, all of them, only one guy played super (the five on our list);
2) In any case where the Finals "super-guy" had other great players on their team, in that series they played below their par; those "isolating" the excellence, by comparison, of the super guy.
3) "Below" the "super-guys" performance; there is a pretty-generalized equality of performance amongst the rest of his more important teammates; i.e., they were pretty equal to each other, as second tier performers.

EXAMPLES:
1 WEST: Baylor and Wilt played at the level of second tier to his brilliance.
2 BARRY: Silk, Beard, Bridges, Ray = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
3 WALTON: Hollins, Lucas, Twardik = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
4 OLAJUWON: Casell, Horry, Thorpe, Ellie, Maxwell = all 2nd tier to his brilliance
5 NOWITSKI: Kidd, Marion, Terry = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.
and now, recently added:
6 DUNCAN 2003: Parker and Ginobili = all 2nd tier to his brilliance.

See a pattern, guys/gals?!!
btw If I've over/under -emphasized any of the people listed (or not listed); I don't mind it being pointed out. If I've erred, it's probably a case where I list a possible 2nd-tier performer who really was less than that; a 3rd tier performer in that particular Finals series.

Just let's remember that none of them were all that important; so, let's not flame over clearly secondary issues on a secondary forum which is PSD NBA, ok?

Again, thanx for this, philyfaninLA
Pablo

N.B. I didn't list the 5-6 of them in any particular order, except chronologically for the first 5; then adding Duncan because he's the newest (if you all generally agree) addition. Now, re-reading the list; it occurs to me that it would NOT be the worst ordering/ranking of the 6 of them. What do you-all think?

Gonna disagree on West. Wilt pulled down 25 rpg in the Finals and anchored the defense.

Walton was phenomenal, but Lucas was the backbone of that team.

Nowitzki needed Tyson Chandler. Chandler was the difference.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 08:16 PM
Hey Chronz, what's up?
Care to elaborate about AI's help being the best. Were they pretty good; or did they just seem pretty good because the East was just so god-awful that year? You're one of my favorite posters (when you're not being such an .... hehe).
Thanx,
Pablo

Who is Pablo? Have you been lurking for years or something? And no, I would not care to elaborate on Iverson having the best help in the conference, that is a tired argument that no doubt will wind up with me and aisystem arguing over chicken vs egg scenarios. Might be a case of me being a jerk right now... but I will add try to add to the thread topic instead.

Sad thing is, sometimes the NBA Finals is truly in the Conference Finals.

Chronz
07-24-2013, 08:29 PM
West had so many Finals appearances vs Russell's Celtics, its hard to distinguish them really. I know Wilt has had better series vs Russ, tho not in the Finals.

bagwell368
07-24-2013, 09:01 PM
I gotta seriously disagree with you here about Elgin. .385 IS significantly lower than .441 (the league average; shooting at more than 50 points below league average is BAD.) And, for Elgin himself - far below his peak, or even his career average.

Sorry. It is close. If Baylor shot .441, rather than .385, it would have taken .89 more FGM per game. Also, I don't have a source for league playoff FG - chances are very good it's lower then .441, meaning it would take even less than .89 FGM per game. That's not BAD I'm afraid. His scoring, rebounds, assists, and general play were still quite high.


You say: "15.4/9.2/4.1 is what Baylor averaged." But those first two numbers are pretty close to only HALF of his career-averages: 27.0 ppg, and way more rpg (excuse me for not looking this up; but he was a great, high-quantity rebounder in a high-rebound era.)

He was an aging player. What do you want? Rebound averages sank league wide from when he started to play because shooting got better. He had 16.6 RPG when he was 26 years old in 1960-61 (.415 FG), and was down to 10.6 (.441 FG%) at age 34.5.


My point: this was far below vintage Elgin; quite good for 90% of players; but NOT for him; especially in the Finals.

Baylor was done being an elite player in 1962-63. His myth well outstripped his deeds. 1968-69 was his 4th best shooting season per TS% and THIRD in eFG%.


On the other hand, you're absolutely right that the Celtics were transitioning from their old-guard to the new. But still, Nelson and Bailey were very good players; and Hondo ends up being ranked in virtually everybody's All-Time Top 25 for good reason; talk about a complete player and completely accepting doing what-ever-it-takes complimentary-wise. Near the end of that Celtic dynasty, Hondo was clearly the team MVP.

Nelson was a good shooter, and a good trailer on the break - but never great. Howell was nearing the end of a short career which had about 5 really excellent years - which got him in the HOF by the skin of his teeth. I've watched more havlicek live than everyone here combined, he's in the 27-34 bracket someplace - although he's clearly a HOF.


About West's injury in Game 5. It boggles the mind what he did based on what he went thru.
First, CAREER-WISE: prior to these play-offs he had endured the almost-un-endurable (so many Finals losses; so many Game 7 Finals losses. After so many heart-breaks, who, but he, would have continued to battle and with such excellence. He never quit, never.

It was fated. The Western Conference was inferior to the East most of his career, and Red/Russell/etc/ was the death knell for everyone but the Hawks and Warriors in one year each.


West had 5 MONSTER games in that one series. Who has ever surpassed that?

I already said I was with him in the top 5. But Balyor and Wilt by presence and reality were far from average.

bagwell368
07-24-2013, 09:16 PM
I'll have to put in an honorable mention for Wilt in 1966-67.

Wilt's sidekick - Chet Walker was more effective in the playoffs than Wilt and Baylor in 1968-69, but Greer, Cunningham, Jones, and Jackson were not much better than a lot of teams, and worse than most.

The big claim to fame is buzz sawing through the Celts in the ECF, and then taking care of Rick Barry, Thurmond, and Mullins in six for the title.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 10:01 PM
Who is Pablo? Have you been lurking for years or something? And no, I would not care to elaborate on Iverson having the best help in the conference, that is a tired argument that no doubt will wind up with me and aisystem arguing over chicken vs egg scenarios. Might be a case of me being a jerk right now... but I will add try to add to the thread topic instead.

Sad thing is, sometimes the NBA Finals is truly in the Conference Finals.

If you look at my earliest 5-6 posts you can see who I am (for example Introduce Yourself Thread). Yes, as I've stated I lurked about 2 years here; was tempted to join; was waiting to prepare my version of the
GOAT rankings; but then a very funny post provoked me to post -about a week ago. Another explanation for why I might appear knowledgeable is because I'm a 55-years long NBA fan; and have seen all the greats except Mikan. (If you just peruse some of my posts; you'll get a pretty good idea of who I am).

I know that AI is near the top of the list here for heated controversy. But you did state he had the most help in the East; and, following your excellent example, I simply asked you to expand on that. I'm not interested in re-opening old "flame wars" here.

I've responded to most of the posts from others in this thread asking them for their reasons or for further explanations. I didn't see any reason to make an exception with you. On the contrary, you are one of my favorite, most respected posters here. Sorry if it was something you didn't want to explain, or go back over.

TheMightyHumph
07-24-2013, 10:12 PM
I'll have to put in an honorable mention for Wilt in 1966-67.

Wilt's sidekick - Chet Walker was more effective in the playoffs than Wilt and Baylor in 1968-69, but Greer, Cunningham, Jones, and Jackson were not much better than a lot of teams, and worse than most.

The big claim to fame is buzz sawing through the Celts in the ECF, and then taking care of Rick Barry, Thurmond, and Mullins in six for the title.

Don't know much about Hal Greer and The Hamster (Billy Cunningham), I see.

And in that particular season Mr. Jones was known as 'Wali Wonder'.

And Luke Jackson was a VERY tough PF.

And some are of the opinion that they were the best team in NBA history. I'll assume you are not one of them.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 10:20 PM
I'll have to put in an honorable mention for Wilt in 1966-67.

Wilt's sidekick - Chet Walker was more effective in the playoffs than Wilt and Baylor in 1968-69, but Greer, Cunningham, Jones, and Jackson were not much better than a lot of teams, and worse than most.

The big claim to fame is buzz sawing through the Celts in the ECF, and then taking care of Rick Barry, Thurmond, and Mullins in six for the title.

I've been hoping someone would present a case for a player (in this case Wilt) from that era, thanx.

YOU SAY: "Wilt's sidekick - Chet Walker was more effective in the playoffs than Wilt and Baylor in 1968-69, but Greer, Cunningham, Jones, and Jackson were not much better than a lot of teams, and worse than most."

In the second half of this sentence are you referring to Greer, Cunningham, Jones & Jackson - their play in the 1967 Finals? Assuming that your answer is yes, are you saying that Wilt played way better than they did? I ask these questions because if both answers are YES, they Wilt would definitely be at least Honorable Mention; and might qualify for a top 10 Ranking in this list.

All I'm trying to do here is, carefully, grasp what each person is saying/contributing and trying to compare it to our criteria here. Seems to me, that with your knowledge, if you'd give us a little more info about the degree to which Wilt dominated the Finals - this would have a strong bearing on how high he should be ranked near the top of the list.

P.S. For some reason, (some minor mis-understandings) you're responding a little touchy towards me. Forgive me if I'm wrong about that. But, in your previous post, for example, you said, "What do you want" in seeming exasperation. I understand you've had your "fair share" of sharp-struggles and un-deserved attacks. But that is not me; I am new here (and not anybody's dupe); and I'm trying to be extra careful with every single person who responds to my thread with as much care as possible to avoid heat and unnecessary mis-understandings. If it appears to you that I am coming down too hard on you; I just hope you believe me when I say that, based on my two years lurking here, before finally joining about a week ago, I recognized you as one of the most knowledgeable and least biased here.

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 10:26 PM
Don't know much about Hal Greer and The Hamster (Billy Cunningham), I see.

And in that particular season Mr. Jones was known as 'Wali Wonder'.

And Luke Jackson was a VERY tough PF.

And some are of the opinion that they were the best team in NBA history. I'll assume you are not one of them.

MightyHumph,
Taking what you know about that team, and focusing mostly on the playoffs, but particularly on the Finals, how would you rank Wilt's performance compared to his teammates. Was he a clear 1 and there was not even really anyone who was a 1b? Or was he barely better than somebody else? Also as compared to the Warriors, did Wilt play better than everyone one of them? And if so, by a little or by a lot?

I ask these questions to try to help nail down whether Wilt might belong on our main list of say 5-10 most dominant Finals Performers, OR only qualify as an Honorable Mention OR not even that.
Thanx for your input so far, looking forward to more,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 10:50 PM
Sorry. It is close. If Baylor shot .441, rather than .385, it would have taken .89 more FGM per game. Also, I don't have a source for league playoff FG - chances are very good it's lower then .441, meaning it would take even less than .89 FGM per game. That's not BAD I'm afraid. His scoring, rebounds, assists, and general play were still quite high. END QUOTE.

PABLO: I don't know if we'll be able to clarify our differences here; but let me try. It seems to me that if the league average is .441 (i.e. 44.1%) and Baylor shot .385 (i.e., 38.5%) that that is 5.6 % below league average and is NOT a small nor negligible drop off. I guess I don't understand your view of how it would not be. If you do not care to explain further, that's ok; we can agree to disagree. But I believe that I am convinceable to any reasonably argued position; so if you care to try again, you might win me over.

BAGWELL: He was an aging player. What do you want? Rebound averages sank league wide from when he started to play because shooting got better. He had 16.6 RPG when he was 26 years old in 1960-61 (.415 FG), and was down to 10.6 (.441 FG%) at age 34.5.

PABLO: I loved Elgin from when I first started watching the NBA as a pre-teenager. He and West were my two favorites for their entire careers from then on. I have zero against him. All I'm trying to do is to try to, as accurately as possible, determine how well he played in those 1969 finals as compared to West - principally to help determine if West's performance was truly as outstanding as I think it was. My sense has been that Elgin (nor Wilt) didn't have one of his/their average great Finals that year while West went ballistic. I recognize your very developed knowledge and analytical skills; and am just trying to pick your brains to help ensure that I get things as close to correct as I can.

BAGWELL: Baylor was done being an elite player in 1962-63. His myth well outstripped his deeds. 1968-69 was his 4th best shooting season per TS% and THIRD in eFG%.

PABLO: So, here you're saying that he went downhill after 62-63; but had a one-year resurgence in 68-69? Yes? Assuming I'm understanding you correctly to this point; what is you opinion of how Elgin did in the those 69 playoffs and particularly the Finals, especially compared to his regular season i.e., did he play pretty much at the same level, above or below, a little or a lot? Thanx in advance.

BAGWELL: Nelson was a good shooter, and a good trailer on the break - but never great. Howell was nearing the end of a short career which had about 5 really excellent years - which got him in the HOF by the skin of his teeth. I've watched more havlicek live than everyone here combined, he's in the 27-34 bracket someplace - although he's clearly a HOF.

PABLO: I thought this is what I said too about Nelson (very good, not great) and Howell (still good those particular finals) and Hondo (that he was great). So aren't we in agreement about all three? btw When you say you watched Hondo live - do you mean at the Garden or just on TV or some combination of the two. I ask because I lived just outside Boston for four of those years, and I watched every Celtic game that was televised all four of those years; plus I went to some games at the Garden.

BAGWELL: It was fated. The Western Conference was inferior to the East most of his career, and Red/Russell/etc/ was the death knell for everyone but the Hawks and Warriors in one year each.

PABLO: We are in complete agreement, as usual.

BAGWELL: I already said I was with him in the top 5. But Balyor and Wilt by presence and reality were far from average.

PABLO: Let's assume that you are right that Baylor and Wilt were far from average, ok? Still, to address the OP, the question still needs to be asked: Compared to these two, how much better was West: a little or a lot? I will accept anyway you answer (I have no reason not to). I'm just trying to ask one of the people most qualified to know, what his evaluation of this question. is.

P.S. When I first joined and started posting, one of the things I was most looking forward to was gradually being integrated into the "team" of the most-reasonable and knowledgeable posters; and this, in my mind, did and does include you. I am looking forward to continuing to work with you (and as many of everybody else as possible).
Thanx for your patience if I have mis-understood you or aggravated you in any way. It was unintentional.
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-24-2013, 11:07 PM
West had so many Finals appearances vs Russell's Celtics, its hard to distinguish them really. I know Wilt has had better series vs Russ, tho not in the Finals.

Yes, iirc West lost 8 Finals to the Celtics and, I'd agree, that it is hard to distinguish them much; with the one exception being 1969; because I tend to think that that was at least one of the 5 Greatest Individual Finals Series-Long Performances ever.

To lose the Finals and still be voted the fMVP has only happened that once. Any memories you have of those 69 Finals, I would appreciate. And yes, Wilt had much more dominant series vs Boston.

TheMightyHumph
07-24-2013, 11:24 PM
MightyHumph,
Taking what you know about that team, and focusing mostly on the playoffs, but particularly on the Finals, how would you rank Wilt's performance compared to his teammates. Was he a clear 1 and there was not even really anyone who was a 1b? Or was he barely better than somebody else? Also as compared to the Warriors, did Wilt play better than everyone one of them? And if so, by a little or by a lot?

I ask these questions to try to help nail down whether Wilt might belong on our main list of say 5-10 most dominant Finals Performers, OR only qualify as an Honorable Mention OR not even that.
Thanx for your input so far, looking forward to more,
Pablo

Actually,if there had been a Finals MVP in the '67, Hal Greer would have probably won it.

Greer was the leading scorer and assist man. Wilt's stats all went down, and he was the 5th leading Sixer scorer in the Finals, and his asisits went down significantly.

But there is one thing that MAY qualify him as a top 10 FINALS performer. His rebounding and defense picked up significantly in the Finals, and won him a Finals MVP in '72.

But on offense, he wasn't playing against inferior players anymore, and his scoring numbers went down.

I believe he is the greatest rebounder that ever played the game.

bagwell368
07-25-2013, 07:27 AM
Don't know much about Hal Greer and The Hamster (Billy Cunningham), I see.

And in that particular season Mr. Jones was known as 'Wali Wonder'.

And Luke Jackson was a VERY tough PF.

And some are of the opinion that they were the best team in NBA history. I'll assume you are not one of them.

I think it's a badly under rated /forgotten team. It's probably one of the 15 best of all time. But there is a difference between the regular season and the playoffs. Several of the stalwarts of that team did not come through in the playoffs. Given Wilt's history a lot might have guessed him, but, he was superb, and his % of the team's playoff wins rivals anybody. Jabbar for the Bucks (with his aging side kick much like Chet Walker for this team) taking off enough pressure to make Jabbar and Wilt hard to argue for in this context - hard to argue as #1. Hakeem has the same story with his side kick, but since it's more recent, and that team was so bloody weak, Hakeem has to go ahead of these two.

bagwell368
07-25-2013, 07:47 AM
I spend a lot of time talking about how Bill Russell was a product of his team/coach-gm more than anyone.

But if there was a year to suggest Bill, it's got to be 1964-65. In his prime at age 30. In the playoffs he posted the rather insane line of 16.5/25.2/6.3 - the next closest Celt on rebounds was Sanders at 8.5, Russell also led the team in assists per game. Bill also led the Celts with a .527 FG% (although his FT's were a poor .526).

Sam Jones a big scorer in his day was the right hand man with 28.6 PPG. All the Celts besides Russell had a 5.3 WS, Bill had 3.3 on his own. That's 38% of his teams playoff WS - Hakeem in '94 was 31%. Wilt in '66-67 was 34%. Now, WS was a less accurate measure in 1965 than 1994, so we have to be careful. I didn't see the '65 Finals, my first was in '66, so to some extent I'm going off of what I have heard and seen later. Still this has to be Russell's most dominant year.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 12:58 PM
YES, they didn't call him "Silk" for nothing - what a sweet, sweet stroke!

Referring to Jamaal Wilkes' shot: Chick Hearn (Lakers super-quality, very un-biased game announcer) used to call it the "20 foot lay-up"; it was that steady/automatic.

N.B. These two posts of mine were in response to this original post:

Quote Originally Posted by asandhu23 View Post

"I agree with the Rick Barry being the only true superstar on his team. Jamaal Wilkes was no schmuck though."

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 01:11 PM
I think it's a badly under rated /forgotten team. It's probably one of the 15 best of all time. But there is a difference between the regular season and the playoffs. Several of the stalwarts of that team did not come through in the playoffs. Given Wilt's history a lot might have guessed him, but, he was superb, and his % of the team's playoff wins rivals anybody. Jabbar for the Bucks (with his aging side kick much like Chet Walker for this team) taking off enough pressure to make Jabbar and Wilt hard to argue for in this context - hard to argue as #1. Hakeem has the same story with his side kick, but since it's more recent, and that team was so bloody weak, Hakeem has to go ahead of these two.

Let me give you the breakdown

Greer 26 ppg, 8 rpg, 6.2 apg
Chet 23.3 ppg 8.8 rpg 3.3 apg
Wali 20.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.3 apg
Cunningham 19.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.0 apg (in 25.3 mpg)
Wilt 17.7 ppg, 28.6 rpg, 6.8 apg
Luke Jackson 9.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.8 apg

There's 4 HOFers in there

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 01:27 PM
I think it's a badly under rated /forgotten team. It's probably one of the 15 best of all time. But there is a difference between the regular season and the playoffs. Several of the stalwarts of that team did not come through in the playoffs. Given Wilt's history a lot might have guessed him, but, he was superb, and his % of the team's playoff wins rivals anybody. Jabbar for the Bucks (with his aging side kick much like Chet Walker for this team) taking off enough pressure to make Jabbar and Wilt hard to argue for in this context - hard to argue as #1. Hakeem has the same story with his side kick, but since it's more recent, and that team was so bloody weak, Hakeem has to go ahead of these two.

Great post.
Just to be clear, are you referring to Wilt's 69-win team? If so, then hell yeah it's one of the 15 top teams of all time; I wouldn't keep it out of my top 10; maybe even top 5-6; afterall, 69 wins has only been beaten once and only equaled once; AND they did go on to win the Chip.

So, given your comments (and encouraging any further delineation, for sure!) I'm adding both for discussion as to whether they should be included in the All-Time Top 10 Finals-Series Dominant-Star Performers:
Wilt 1967 76ers
KAJ 1971 Bucks (until the next day, formerly known as Lew Alcindor)

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 01:30 PM
Actually,if there had been a Finals MVP in the '67, Hal Greer would have probably won it.

Greer was the leading scorer and assist man. Wilt's stats all went down, and he was the 5th leading Sixer scorer in the Finals, and his asisits went down significantly.

But there is one thing that MAY qualify him as a top 10 FINALS performer. His rebounding and defense picked up significantly in the Finals, and won him a Finals MVP in '72.

But on offense, he wasn't playing against inferior players anymore, and his scoring numbers went down.

I believe he is the greatest rebounder that ever played the game.

Hey MightyHumph,
Seeing as I "was raised" on the early NBA; I'm not gonna penalize those stars for working in a period that did not yet have a fMVP award.
So thanx for this post about Hal Greer (I definitely do remember him, and was greatly impressed with his play; a small guy that got it done in a big way).
If you would, go ahead and make the strongest case for him being included in our list, OK?
Thanx so much,
Pablo

P.S. You will get ZERO argument from me about Wilt being the greatest rebounder of all-time. Heck, when asked what his greatest achievement personal-pride-wise was, he said: My 55 rebound-game (I believe vs Russ?). He has history's greatest rebound average and total career rebounds WHILE, by only a tiny fraction, missing out on the all-time #1 scoring average.

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 01:35 PM
Hey MightyHumph,
Seeing as I "was raised" on the early NBA; I'm not gonna penalize those stars for working in a period that did not yet have a fMVP award.
So thanx for this post about Hal Greer (I definitely do remember him, and was greatly impressed with his play; a small guy that got it done in a big way).
If you would, go ahead and make the strongest case for him being included in our list, OK?
Thanx so much,
Pablo

I'm not making a case for Greer.

I'm saying Wilt didn't win '67 Finals alone. Greer was an All-Star that season, and nine others

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 01:35 PM
I spend a lot of time talking about how Bill Russell was a product of his team/coach-gm more than anyone.

But if there was a year to suggest Bill, it's got to be 1964-65. In his prime at age 30. In the playoffs he posted the rather insane line of 16.5/25.2/6.3 - the next closest Celt on rebounds was Sanders at 8.5, Russell also led the team in assists per game. Bill also led the Celts with a .527 FG% (although his FT's were a poor .526).

Sam Jones a big scorer in his day was the right hand man with 28.6 PPG. All the Celts besides Russell had a 5.3 WS, Bill had 3.3 on his own. That's 38% of his teams playoff WS - Hakeem in '94 was 31%. Wilt in '66-67 was 34%. Now, WS was a less accurate measure in 1965 than 1994, so we have to be careful. I didn't see the '65 Finals, my first was in '66, so to some extent I'm going off of what I have heard and seen later. Still this has to be Russell's most dominant year.

Bagwell,
Thanx a lot for this.
The way I'm trying to work this is that, any time anybody makes a serious case for a candidate for the list; I'll immediate (though temporarily) include him in the list as a proposed candidate, to encourage further discussion and get all the help all knowledgeable posters can contribute. Then I'll propose whether he should be included in say: The Top 10 (at least); perhaps the Top 20; or, for some special reason: for Honorable Mention.

Seeing as Russell won 11 Chips, we must determine his best finals-series year performance; and include it in this discussion - even if it "ONLY" ends up getting him in the Honorable Mention Category. Honorable Mention is afterall very exclusive and totally an honor.

Thanx, you're great,
Pablo

P.S. I DID see those Finals, didn't miss a single minute. (I'm one up on you here, hehe). On the other hand, I admit my memory banks have relatively gone to sh__. (So usually you've got me there - and that's the more important of these two comparisons!)

P.S. 2. I've just re-read your post; and realize that I missed its most important point imo. Russ had 3/8 of the winshares of the entire team! And you have shown that (while ws was less accurate then) at the very least, by his winshare being higher than other list-members; he qualifies for serious consideration. Can you provide us with the ws for the 2nd ranked Celtic that year. If it's a lot lower; then RUSSELL IS IN, PERIOD!

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 01:54 PM
Let me give you the breakdown

Greer 26 ppg, 8 rpg, 6.2 apg
Chet 23.3 ppg 8.8 rpg 3.3 apg
Wali 20.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.3 apg
Cunningham 19.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.0 apg (in 25.3 mpg)
Wilt 17.7 ppg, 28.6 rpg, 6.8 apg
Luke Jackson 9.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.8 apg

There's 4 HOFers in there

MightyHumph, Thanx for this.
My one important question: are these stats:
regular season OR
entire playoffs OR
Finals only.

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 01:56 PM
MightyHumph, Thanx for this.
My one important question: are these stats:
regular season OR
entire playoffs OR
Finals only.

Finals only

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 01:58 PM
I'm not making a case for Greer.

I'm saying Wilt didn't win '67 Finals alone. Greer was an All-Star that season, and nine others

Thanx muchly for this clarification.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:01 PM
Finals only

Thanx again,
You guys make me feel like I'm the secretary of a really-fine analytical team.
Do you have the winshares (or any other advanced stuff) on these guys in those finals?
So we can make the clearest possible determination as to how much better Wilt performed in the entire Finals Series as compared to his 2nd best teammate (and also versus the best opposing player).

el hidalgo
07-25-2013, 02:01 PM
lebron james anybody? his teammates were TRASH this year in the playoffs. wade averaged 16 on a 45.9 TS%. Bosh went for 12 points 7 rebounds on 45.8% shooting. garbage.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:05 PM
MightyHumph AND bagwell,
If you guys would only stop posting super-useful stuff for a moment (hehe); you'll give me the chance to update the OP with your mighty contributions!

WTF, give me a break, hehehehehe

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:09 PM
lebron james anybody? his teammates were TRASH this year in the playoffs. wade averaged 16 on a 45.9 TS%. Bosh went for 12 points 7 rebounds on 45.8% shooting. garbage.

Thanx el hidalgo for re-raising your previous point about LeBron.
I'm being too lazy to go back and look it up; but if you remember iirc when you first suggested LeBron, I responded right away encouraging to make the strongest case for him (especially relative to Wade; I was flat-out agreeing about Bosh). I'm still encouraging you whole-heartedly, to make the strongest case for LeBron (as far better than Wade AND far better than the best San Antonio Finals-Series Player). Please continue and expand.

I'm a HUGE LeBron fan; I anticipate that'll he'll end up THE GOAT barring career-ending injury SOON (IF he keeps this incredible sh__ up for 3 more years with 2 more reg. season MVPs and 2-3 fMVP s; then it might already be too late, even for an injury, to keep him out of the top 3 spots or even #1). And I love all the guys he has to pass to get to the top!

el hidalgo
07-25-2013, 02:14 PM
Thanx el hidalgo for re-raising your previous point about LeBron.
I'm being too lazy to go back and look it up; but if you remember iirc when you first suggested LeBron, I responded right away encouraging to make the strongest case for him (especially relative to Wade; I was flat-out agreeing about Bosh;). I'm still encouraging you whole-heartedly, to make the strongest case for LeBron (as far better than Wade AND far better than the best San Antonio Finals-Series Player). Please continue and expand.

I'm a HUGE LeBron fan; anticipating that'll he'll end up THE GOAT barring career-ending injury SOON (he keeps this incredible sh__ up aY 3 more years with 2 more reg. season MVPs and 2-3 fMVP s; and it might already be too late, even for an injury, to keep him out of the top 3 spots or even #1). And I love all the guys he has to pass to get to the top!

i never said anything about lebron in this thread. read better bro. i said shaq in the 2000 playoffs.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:15 PM
Here's a question for anybody/everybody reading/posting on this thread. It may not be important to you-all but is it definitely important to me (I am afterall just a newbie here at PSD NBA):

AM I DOING A DECENT ENOUGH JOB OF "GUIDING" THIS DISCUSSION; or am I screwing things up?
(Notice how I sneakily put what I hope you will answer in CAPITAL LETTERS and tried to hide its opposite????) hehe

P.S. I may not respond for a few minutes to anything said for awhile; I'm going to try to accurately update the OP; and I don't have high confidence that I'll do it well or quickly. Please bear with me.

P.S. I'm a humble-type guy. So any mod or anybody else who has ANY SUGGESTION AT ALL; about the correct way to update an OP; please guide me with all the skill and "love" you've got.

el hidalgo
07-25-2013, 02:17 PM
Here's a question for anybody/everybody reading/posting on this thread. It may not be important to you-all but is it definitely important to me (I am afterall just a newbie here at PSD NBA):

AM I DOING A DECENT ENOUGH JOB OF "GUIDING" THIS DISCUSSION; or am I screwing things up?
(Notice how I sneakily put what I hope you will answer in CAPITAL LETTERS and tried to hide its opposite????) hehe

aside from the fact that you're trying way too hard, you're good

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:22 PM
i never said anything about lebron in this thread. read better bro. i said shaq in the 2000 playoffs.

MY BAD, PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY el hidalgo. (Can I get away with my already much-used excuse of bad-memory?) btw I was NOT trying to imply any ridicule or derision WHATSOEVER in that comment.

But, in this thread, someone DID propose LeBron, didn't they? My memory isn't this badly turned to sh__ is it?

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:26 PM
aside from the fact that you're trying way too hard, you're good

About me "trying way too hard". GUILTY. But maybe I've got a 2-3 good reasons:
1) I'm new at this, so I'm trying super-hard to do things fairly and right IS a top priority for me;
2) I lurked here for 2 years and saw tons of "flame-wars"; I'd do almost anything to help prevent that;
3) The subject itself can lend itself to super-strong opinions; I'm trying to both: accommodate strong opinions, and give opposing views the chance to "temper" the impact of such strong opinions on my thinking.

Thanx for the nice compliment,
Yours sincerely,
Pablo

P.S. Before I forget: AND
4) I love numbers, especially NBA-related numbers and comparisons; AND (because I've never seen it done):
5) I would just love to "know" who were the greatest MONSTER Finals-Series Performers.

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 02:26 PM
Thanx again,
You guys make me feel like I'm the secretary of a really-fine analytical team.
Do you have the winshares (or any other advanced stuff) on these guys in those finals?
So we can make the clearest possible determination as to how much better Wilt performed in the entire Finals Series as compared to his 2nd best teammate (and also versus the best opposing player).

Well, the best opposing player was obviously Barry, but Wilt was going up against the 3rd best rebounder and 2nd or 3rd best defensive bigman in the league, Nate Thurmond.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 02:33 PM
Please all,
Give me about 15 minutes; then please review my new update to the OP to ensure that I HAVE INDEED included, at least for general preliminary discussion, ALL the various proposed candidates for our OP list.

I'm going to go over all the posts and take notes; then update the OP - I anticipate 15 minutes to accomplish this.

ALSO, If any MOD wants to weigh in on if I'm screwing up the thread by updating the OP; please do let me know asap; or whenever you can get around to it.

Vincent33
07-25-2013, 02:47 PM
Thanx all for your first responses.

Perhaps I should have reworded this so that it would more "readily" ask for more candidates. But that WAS my intention; not to insist that this list of 5 is the final word.

So, about AI. IF we look at his over-all Play-off performance, I agree - he took a team that had no business (without his heroics) even being in the play-offs really. Somehow he dragged them to the finals (iirc thru more than one 7 game grind-out series). His performance that year definitely should be in a Top 10; again if we don't primarily focus on the Finals. One counter argument is a technical one and is NOT his fault: that the West was WAY THE F___ better than the East that year. But a greater counter argument, if we DO focus on the finals is that he was in NO WAY the best player in those finals; and so would not qualify.

In my memory, I can't recall anyone (other than 1969's West) who came close to being the fMVP while on the losing Finals team. IF we agree that to qualify for this list your team either has to win the Finals that year OR you have to be the fMVP (or should have been; but were wrongly slighted).

Duncan in 2003? What do people say?

Well in defense of Iverson's run in the 2001 playoffs, you already hit on the fact that he carried that team to the finals. While he clearly wasn't the best player in those finals behind Shaq, the fact that he was able to carry his team to a victory in game 1 and give the Lakers their only loss in that playoffs despite running through the much tougher West at a pretty 11-0 run to the finals and give the Lakers a decent series despite losing in 5 games. Pretty amazing.

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 02:49 PM
Well in defense of Iverson's run in the 2001 playoffs, you already hit on the fact that he carried that team to the finals. While he clearly wasn't the best player in those finals behind Shaq, the fact that he was able to carry his team to a victory in game 1 and give the Lakers their only loss in that playoffs despite running through the much tougher West at a pretty 11-0 run to the finals and give the Lakers a decent series despite losing in 5 games. Pretty amazing.

Only thing is that the team carried Iverson to the Finals. That's how it was designed.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 03:12 PM
OK, guys. Maybe it took 30 minutes (instead of 15)
but it occurs to me that before I start messing around with the OP and then probably needing to change and re-change my "Latest Addition"; it'd be a lot better to Post here first.
Here's the results of my notes from all of ours FIRST 100 POSTS (yes I know this is #106 or so; but let's round it to 100, ok?)

NOTES ON OUR FIRST 100~ POSTS on this thread
A GENERAL AGREEMENT (few big disagreements) about THE INITIAL 5:West *, Barry, Walton, Olajuwon, Nowitski
B MOST "DISAGREEMENTS": about West. Two main reasons: he lost; he had Baylor&Wilt.
C ALMOST NO DISAGREEMNT VS: Barry, Walton, Olajuwon & Nowitski
D PROPOSED ADDITIONS (in this thread's chronological order) (with comments by me in ()'s:

6 Duncan 2003 Spurs (looks like a qualifier; more pros/cons please)
7 LeBron 2013 Heat (strong qualifier?; more pros/cons please; was he WAY better than Wade)
8 Shaq 2000 Lakers (probable qualifier; but was Kobe his "1b" OR less; and VS the Spurs "fMVP")
9 Iverson 2000 76errs (NON-qualifier; possible Honorable Mention for guts+ gunning)
10 Kidd 2001, 2002 Nets (NON-qualifier; possible Honorable Mention for his team's clear "fMVP")
11 MJ 1991, 1998 Bulls (definite qualifier IF Pippen was NOT his clear "1b"; otherwise Honorable Mention?)
12 KG 2008 Celtics (there's been zero comments on this candidacy so far; but he was mentioned)
13 Wilt 1967 76ers (looks like a qualifier; more pros/cons please)
14 Greer 1969 76ers (I need more info; comparing him to Wilt & other teammates AND vs opponent's best)
15 KAJ 1971 Bucks (looks like a qualifier; more pros/cons please; a TOP new candidate)
16 Russel 1965 Celtics (looks like a qualifier; more pros/cons please' but was Sam Jones his "1b"?)

I took lots more notes.
What I'm asking for from all of you at this moment, is:
Did I inadvertently leave any proposed candidates out?
Did I list the wrong year or team for any of them.
IS ANY BODY ELSE MISSING???

How about we let this post be a kind of sub-OP for a little while; letting everybody correct it if necessary and comment on it if they want. Then I'll add (more) notes and then re-update the OP.

Sound OK?, then, as they say,

DISCUSS

* The very-early discussion about West as a fMVP but Finals loser; prompted my first set of changes to the OP. I made a block addition (which hopefully is self-explanatory enough that I don't need to repeat it here).

N.B. It WAS almost inevitable that the new additions would heavily emphasize the most recent 16 years: 1998-2013. I'll keep this, "current-favorable-bias" in mind; when eventually updating the OP. Feel free to address this either directly, or by proposing other older candidates (especially from the first half of NBA History (its first 35 years: 1946-1980 or so)

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 03:22 PM
I'm sure I'm heavily biased in favor of the worthiness of my own thread; but regardless, it seems to me,
YOU GUYS ARE DOING ONE GREAT JOB;
LET'S KEEP IT UP

All-In
07-25-2013, 04:00 PM
Dwayne Wade!!!! The 2006 Finals!!!! On 47% FG, 44 MPG, 35 PPG, 8 REB, 4 AST, 3 STL, 1 BLK…….Shaq was the next best with 35 MPG, 14 PPG, and 10 REB…..Wade single handedly won them the finals that year……People putting Lebron 2013 over Wade 2006 is a joke….wade had **** as his supporting cast compared to Lebron

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 04:05 PM
Dwayne Wade!!!! The 2006 Finals!!!! On 47% FG, 44 MPG, 35 PPG, 8 REB, 4 AST, 3 STL, 1 BLK…….Shaq was the next best with 35 MPG, 14 PPG, and 10 REB…..Wade single handedly won them the finals that year……People putting Lebron 2013 over Wade 2006 is a joke….wade had **** as his supporting cast compared to Lebron

MY GOODNESS, of course, how could I forget.
Please: GIVE US MORE ARGUMENTS (if you like) for his being far better than his teammates and/or far better than the best opponents players.
Again, thanx so much for this; the list would have been seriously flawed without Wade 2006
Pablo

P.S. Didn't he have an all-time top Finals-Series "per" too?

All-In
07-25-2013, 04:17 PM
1965 Russell had Sam Jones(26ppg) and John Havlicek(19ppg)
1971 KAJ had Oscar Roberston (19ppg) and Bob Dandrige(18ppg)
1967 Wilt had Hal Greer(22ppg) and Chet Walker(19ppg)
2008 KG had PP who was Finals MVP
MJ had Pippen

Wade had Shaq(14ppg) and ANTOINE WALKER LOL

All of those old superstars had plenty of help look it up.

All-In
07-25-2013, 04:21 PM
I think Dwades PER was like 27

Federal Reserve
07-25-2013, 04:26 PM
Lebron helped two terrible teams win back-to-back championships.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 04:29 PM
here's a link to Hollinger's Top 50 Finals Performances since the ABA-NBA merger; an invaluable tool for helping us analize "Run-Away" One-Man Wrecking-Ball Finals-Series Performers

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

Boy would it be helpful, for this thread especially, if we had the same information for the #2 teammate (and #1 opponent) for each of those 50 performers!!! Anybody got this???

I hope I'm not violating the rules by posting this link.

All-In
07-25-2013, 04:37 PM
I guess Dwade had a 33.8 per in the 2006 Finals.

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 04:49 PM
1965 Russell had Sam Jones(26ppg) and John Havlicek(19ppg)
1971 KAJ had Oscar Roberston (19ppg) and Bob Dandrige(18ppg)
1967 Wilt had Hal Greer(22ppg) and Chet Walker(19ppg)
2008 KG had PP who was Finals MVP
MJ had Pippen

Wade had Shaq(14ppg) and ANTOINE WALKER LOL

All of those old superstars had plenty of help look it up.

First, Thanx for the quick and detailed reply, All-In,

Second, let's me and you assume that you've more than made your excellent point about Wade;
Given this, then why not evaluate each of the other possible candidates on their own merits (even if they don't beat Wade 2006), OK?

And, keep in mind, this list is NOT trying to downplay the #2, and #3 Finals teammates; INSTEAD it is merely trying to ascertain: DID the #1 Star outplay everyone else in the Finals-Series by a significant enough margin to merit inclusion in our OP list of 5-10 Comparatively-Greatest "1-Man" Finals-Series Performances.

so, here's my step-by-step responses/questions for your other points"

Third, 1965 Russell (true; but his per was way better than those two)
Fourth, 1971 KAJ (True; but KAJ was WAY BETTER than either of them; wasn't he?)
Fifth, 1967 Wilt (True; but Wilt was WAY BETTER than either of them; wasn't he?)
Sixth, 2008 KG (true; MY BAD (very bad = sloppy, non-research on my part) THANX
Seventh, MJ has Pippen (true; I, in fact, have, more than once, asked for anyone to try to prove that MJ was in fact WAY BETTER than Pippen; no one has yet made a case either way; so ... still waiting)

BACK TO: WADE'S CASE:
How WAY BETTER would you, yourself, rate Wade's 2006 Finals-Series Performance over Shaq's?
And over Dirk's too?

Thanx a lot for your contributions,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Lebron helped two terrible teams win back-to-back championships.

I encourage you to expand upon your position. Please do make your case for either or both PLUS remember, per the criteria of the OP, try to make the case that he outplayed the other team's best player BY A LOT.
Please believe that I am not opposed, at this point, to LeBron for either or both cases.

bagwell368
07-25-2013, 09:09 PM
1965 Russell had Sam Jones(26ppg) and John Havlicek(19ppg)

Take a look at the assists, rebounds, and FG%...


1971 KAJ had Oscar Roberston (19ppg) and Bob Dandrige(18ppg)

Oscar was a major "side kick", Dandridge was also very good


1967 Wilt had Hal Greer(22ppg) and Chet Walker(19ppg)

Walker was the guy. Greer was the third banana.


2008 KG had PP who was Finals MVP

KG shouldn't be here, not because he wasn't great - IMO he should have gotten the Finals MVP, and he certainly was the Celts MVP in season and playoffs overall. The Celts were loaded. Ray. Rondo, Perkins, Posey, Powe...
MJ had Pippen

Pablonovi
07-25-2013, 09:24 PM
Take a look at the assists, rebounds, and FG%...



Oscar was a major "side kick", Dandridge was also very good



Walker was the guy. Greer was the third banana.



KG shouldn't be here, not because he wasn't great - IMO he should have gotten the Finals MVP, and he certainly was the Celts MVP in season and playoffs overall. The Celts were loaded. Ray. Rondo, Perkins, Posey, Powe...
MJ had Pippen

I agree 100% with everything you say here.
You're one sharp cookie,
Pablo

TheMightyHumph
07-25-2013, 10:08 PM
Walker was the guy. Greer was the third banana

Greer was an all-star, player voted.

In the '67 Finals, he led the Sixers in ppg (26), assists (6.2 pg) and averaged 8 rpg.

And ignoring Cunningham's contributions is ridiculous

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 10:24 AM
Greer was an all-star, player voted.

In the '67 Finals, he led the Sixers in ppg (26), assists (6.2 pg) and averaged 8 rpg.

And ignoring Cunningham's contributions is ridiculous

Yeah, the Kangaroo Kid was awesome; every time he jumped, something about it always reminded me of a "Pogo Stick"; like he was launching off of one. His "ups" were special. One testimony to his "worth" to that team is that when he jumped leagues, they set the all-time record for worst record (only recently, percentage-wise "beaten" by Charlotte). He had the kind the Magic Johnson kind of joy for the game, long before Magic.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 10:27 AM
here's a link to Hollinger's Top 50 Finals Performances since the ABA-NBA merger; an invaluable tool for helping us analize "Run-Away" One-Man Wrecking-Ball Finals-Series Performers

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

Boy would it be helpful, for this thread especially, if we had the same information for the #2 teammate (and #1 opponent) for each of those 50 performers!!! Anybody got this???

I hope I'm not violating the rules by posting this link.

I'm BUMPING this because I'm really hoping we can get some contributions on both:
Hollinger's List (SPECIFICALLY as it relates to the OP) AND
Who was the 2nd Best Player in those Finals (behind the Hollinger #1s).
Thanx in advance,
Pablo

P.S. In a few cases, Hollinger himself provides (further down his list) the name of that #2 behind his #1.
I'm thinking it would be super-useful to our discussion here if part (just the 50 Names in order) or all (including his explanations with stats) could be included in our thread. But I don't know how to do that (or even if it is allowed by: Hollinger, his host site, and by PSD). If allowed, can one of you transfer that info to here?

All-In
07-26-2013, 02:56 PM
Yeah, the Kangaroo Kid was awesome; every time he jumped, something about it always reminded me of a "Pogo Stick"; like he was launching off of one. His "ups" were special. One testimony to his "worth" to that team is that when he jumped leagues, they set the all-time record for worst record (only recently, percentage-wise "beaten" by Charlotte). He had the kind the Magic Johnson kind of joy for the game, long before Magic.

You also got to remember that back in the 60s there were 10 teams in the league and 3 rounds in the playoffs. Each team was filled with great players. I don’t think it’s fair to put guys like Wilt and Russell on the list, even though they were the best of that era, but guys like Wade and Dirk and MJ had 28-30 teams 4 playoff rounds different rules.

All-In
07-26-2013, 03:15 PM
First, Thanx for the quick and detailed reply, All-In,

Second, let's me and you assume that you've more than made your excellent point about Wade;
Given this, then why not evaluate each of the other possible candidates on their own merits (even if they don't beat Wade 2006), OK?

And, keep in mind, this list is NOT trying to downplay the #2, and #3 Finals teammates; INSTEAD it is merely trying to ascertain: DID the #1 Star outplay everyone else in the Finals-Series by a significant enough margin to merit inclusion in our OP list of 5-10 Comparatively-Greatest "1-Man" Finals-Series Performances.

so, here's my step-by-step responses/questions for your other points"

Third, 1965 Russell (true; but his per was way better than those two)
Fourth, 1971 KAJ (True; but KAJ was WAY BETTER than either of them; wasn't he?)
Fifth, 1967 Wilt (True; but Wilt was WAY BETTER than either of them; wasn't he?)
Sixth, 2008 KG (true; MY BAD (very bad = sloppy, non-research on my part) THANX
Seventh, MJ has Pippen (true; I, in fact, have, more than once, asked for anyone to try to prove that MJ was in fact WAY BETTER than Pippen; no one has yet made a case either way; so ... still waiting)

BACK TO: WADE'S CASE:
How WAY BETTER would you, yourself, rate Wade's 2006 Finals-Series Performance over Shaq's?
And over Dirk's too?

Thanx a lot for your contributions,
Pablo

I watched the 2006 Finals and YES Wade’s performance was that better than anyone else on the court. Shaq was 33 tired and slow. The heat were down 2-0 and game 3 they were down 13pts with 7min left in the 4th…AND WON. He finished that game with 42pts 13 rebs on 54% shooting. Dirk shot 39% from the field and 25% from 3 lol I just don’t recall ONE player lifting there team to a championship the way Wade did. MJ in 92, 93, 97, 98, lol Dirk in 2011, Bill Walton in 1977(19pts 19rebs 5Ast 4 blk), Hakeem in 1994, Moses Malone in 1983 (26pts 18rebs) those are the ones that come to my mind.

TheMightyHumph
07-26-2013, 05:46 PM
Shaq in 2000, 2001, 2002

flea
07-26-2013, 05:51 PM
The list begins with Duncan in 03 in my mind.

Guppyfighter
07-26-2013, 05:55 PM
Shaq averaged 38 points on 60 percent shooting in the finals for one of his finals.

All-In
07-26-2013, 07:16 PM
The list begins with Duncan in 03 in my mind.

The list begins with wade in 06 in my mind....but I like Duncan 03 too(24 pts 17rebs 5 blks 5 ast) the numbers are crazy. I just like wade more becuase he was down 2-0 and 13pts down in the 4th game 3 and then put them on his back for 4 in a row. But yea Duncan 03 is great.

All-In
07-26-2013, 07:22 PM
Shaq averaged 38 points on 60 percent shooting in the finals for one of his finals.

Yea if there is one Shaq finals it will be the 2000 finals not just because of those numbers, 38pts 16rebs, but also since Kobe avg 16 ppg and just wasn't near Shaq....but in 01 and 02 Kobe avg 26 ppg. Shaq was great in 01 and 02 but Kobe wasn't that much worse...in 02 Kobe avg 27ppg on 51%FG and 55% from 3.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 07:38 PM
I think it's a badly under rated /forgotten team. It's probably one of the 15 best of all time. But there is a difference between the regular season and the playoffs. Several of the stalwarts of that team did not come through in the playoffs. Given Wilt's history a lot might have guessed him, but, he was superb, and his % of the team's playoff wins rivals anybody. Jabbar for the Bucks (with his aging side kick much like Chet Walker for this team) taking off enough pressure to make Jabbar and Wilt hard to argue for in this context - hard to argue as #1. Hakeem has the same story with his side kick, but since it's more recent, and that team was so bloody weak, Hakeem has to go ahead of these two.

Perhaps a wee bit off-topic; but that photo sure is distracting!

flea
07-26-2013, 07:50 PM
The list begins with wade in 06 in my mind....but I like Duncan 03 too(24 pts 17rebs 5 blks 5 ast) the numbers are crazy. I just like wade more becuase he was down 2-0 and 13pts down in the 4th game 3 and then put them on his back for 4 in a row. But yea Duncan 03 is great.

Wade had help from his non-team members in his win. That finals might have been worse than when the Kings got gypped.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 07:55 PM
You also got to remember that back in the 60s there were 10 teams in the league and 3 rounds in the playoffs. Each team was filled with great players. I don’t think it’s fair to put guys like Wilt and Russell on the list, even though they were the best of that era, but guys like Wade and Dirk and MJ had 28-30 teams 4 playoff rounds different rules.

Thanx for your thoughts. I strongly disagree with you; please consider my reasoning; as far as I know I have a unique position on how to evaluate different decades (I may only have lurked here at PSD NBA for 2 years); but I read Sports Illustrated for decades; and have reads (heard/watched) tons of other mags/sites/tape/radio/video....; with THE specific aim of getting the best understanding of this question possible:

1) THERE WILL NEVER BE REAL, SIGNIFICANT AGREEMENT AMONGST ANY SIZEABLE % OF NBA-FANS as long as rankings are based on the supposed superiority of one/some decade(s) over other(s). For every argument that seems reasonable (thus discounting surely whack-o ideas); there is/are an equal number of very valid arguments against it/them.
2) just one example: ATHLETES TODAY ARE BETTER THAN BEFORE. Think what future NBA fans are going to say? They're gonna say (absent some Earth-wide nuclear-type disaster; or some such that sets-back human health hugely), "ATHLETES TODAY ARE BETTER THAN BEFORE". Sound familiar. I said the same thing back in the late 50s (comparing those greats to the late 40's players; actually my dad DID say this; I had to agree, he know way more than me then). So, anybody who wants to claim that THIS ONE THING is THE DECIDING FACTOR - is gonna get plenty bitter 15 or more years from now; when most of the greats will be like LeBron physically. See what I mean? More teams, less playoff rounds, ABA, watered-down due to expansion, better defense then/now, better/worse rules, more/less great players, ... you name it EVERY SINGLE CRITERIA EXCEPT ONE DOES/WILL AND CAN ONLY DIVIDE US (for ever). Thus:

THE ONLY FAIR WAY TO COMPARE NBA DECADES IS TO TREAT THEM AS EQUALS !!!
So, the 50s = 60s = 70s = 80s = 90s = 2000s.

The late 1940's are a special case for two reasons:
1) it's a most (including the NBL) only a half-decade; and
2) with the exception of a minority of top players; the overall average player was WAY inferior even to the 50s.

The 2010s aren't even half-way played yet - so we basically gotta leave them out.

What do you all think of my thinking here?

Remember, nobody really cares about the role players and the bench players. Our focus is nearly-exclusively on the starters, the stars among them, the super-stars among them and the All-Time Greats among them.
You'll have a hard time comvincing me that these 5 would NOT have been big stars in any later decade(s):
Wilt, West, Baylor, the Big "O" and Russell (although Russ would have probably been shifted to forward).
Nor could you easily convince me that later big-stars would NOT have been big-stars in the 50s and 60s.

WadeKobe
07-26-2013, 08:10 PM
Wade '06. End of story.

tredigs
07-26-2013, 08:40 PM
Rick Barry in '75 - took a weak cast to the finals and SWEPT a loaded 60 win Bullets team w/ out another teammate averaging over 12 ppg.

Duncan in '03 - Led the team in pts/rbs/asts and anchored their D while he carried them to the title through some of the toughest comp in NBA history.

Dream in '04 - The year before Drexler got there. Possibly the best player on both ends in these playoffs.

Shaq's still too big of a presence at that point for me to include Wade. But if we're including him, I can see the argument for Lebron in this season as being in that next tier. He had well over 2x the Win Shares of anyone else, and he was by far their best player on both ends.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 08:46 PM
Wade '06. End of story.

WadeKobe,
Succinct!

But please don't forget, our OP speaks of 5(-10); so even if he ends up #1 (and he DOES have a very strong case, what with the greatest PER ever; and his #2, Shaq, who did play very well, still WAY behind him); still what about other worthy candidates for the top 5-10? Any other thoughts,
Again, Thanx,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 08:49 PM
Rick Barry in '75 - took a weak cast to the finals and SWEPT a loaded 60 win Bullets team w/ out another teammate averaging over 12 ppg.

Duncan in '03 - Led the team in pts/rbs/asts and anchored their D while he carried them to the title through some of the toughest comp in NBA history.

Dream in '04 - The year before Drexler got there. Possibly the best player on both ends in these playoffs.

Shaq's still too big of a presence at that point for me to include Wade. But if we're including him, I can see the argument for Lebron in this season as being in that next tier. He had well over 2x the Win Shares of anyone else, and he was by far their best player on both ends.

tredigs
Thanx, good points.
You give me the opportunity to repeat a "Thank You" to Chronz and then Hawkeye for pointing out my huge oversight by not including the "underhand man" in the original OP.

I'm definitely NOT discouraging the proposing of candidates for "2nd Tier" of this list. Such candidates might move up, into the top 10; or down, into Honorable Mention. Anybody who ends up in the final list was a Monster that year on his team in the finals - pure honor, nothing to be negative about. No?

Dream 1994 (not 04, right?). Are you saying that he was more "One-Man Wrecking-Crew-ish" in 94 without Clyde the Glide than he was in 95 with him? I'm not making any argument here one way or the other; but would you care to expound on your reasons for emphasizing his play in 94? Thanx

I have stated elsewhere how much I "loved" Barry (in the ABA too for that matter). What he did in those finals against THAT team, WOW.

Pablonovi
07-26-2013, 09:03 PM
I watched the 2006 Finals and YES Wade’s performance was that better than anyone else on the court. Shaq was 33 tired and slow. The heat were down 2-0 and game 3 they were down 13pts with 7min left in the 4th…AND WON. He finished that game with 42pts 13 rebs on 54% shooting. Dirk shot 39% from the field and 25% from 3 lol I just don’t recall ONE player lifting there team to a championship the way Wade did. MJ in 92, 93, 97, 98, lol Dirk in 2011, Bill Walton in 1977(19pts 19rebs 5Ast 4 blk), Hakeem in 1994, Moses Malone in 1983 (26pts 18rebs) those are the ones that come to my mind.

As Will Smith in MIB (1) said, "NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT!"

Thanx All-In.
This is the kind of stuff I was hoping for.
I really hope that everybody here realizes that (at least for this thread) my attitude is 100% that I'd rather have been originally wrong/incorrect/off AND get a final list that is GOOD TO GREAT; then insist on my "rightness" and end up harming the list.

Keep it up dude.

naps
07-27-2013, 08:20 AM
Is this only for the finals or for the whole season? If only for the finals then why isn't Wade mentioned there Pablo? Wade had one of the most legendary finals of all-time while his second best player was something like 13/9 in the finals.

MickeyMgl
07-27-2013, 09:27 AM
shaq in the 2000 playoffs

Kobe played too big a role. Game 7 vs Trailblazers. Game 4 vs Pacers. Game 2 vs Suns. Etc.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 10:41 AM
Yea if there is one Shaq finals it will be the 2000 finals not just because of those numbers, 38pts 16rebs, but also since Kobe avg 16 ppg and just wasn't near Shaq....but in 01 and 02 Kobe avg 26 ppg. Shaq was great in 01 and 02 but Kobe wasn't that much worse...in 02 Kobe avg 27ppg on 51%FG and 55% from 3.

Thanx All-In,
I completely agree with you. Shaq's 2000 Finals WAS a One-Man Wrecking-Crew; while the other years were Two-Man Wrecking-Crews (1a & 1b). Neither could be stopped; every single time one was double-teamed the other PLUS the rest of the team would make you pay. I like your analysis.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 10:43 AM
Kobe played too big a role. Game 7 vs Trailblazers. Game 4 vs Pacers. Game 2 vs Suns. Etc.

MickeyMgl,
Permit me to say, "You're right and you're wrong". If we're talking about the PLAY-OFFS, Kobe was huge; especially in "Hack-A-Shaq" time *. But in the ** FINALS, while Kobe was still great; Shaq was WAY better than him. Agree?

And afterall, the OP focuses on the Finals-Series, rather than the entire Play-offs, no?

* Which Magic would call "winning time"; no way should we downplay what Kobe did during those crucial end-of-game minutes game after game.

** 2000 Finals specifically

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 10:53 AM
Is this only for the finals or for the whole season? If only for the finals then why isn't Wade mentioned there Pablo? Wade had one of the most legendary finals of all-time while his second best player was something like 13/9 in the finals.

naps,
Excellent point. First your questions: the OP is NOT about the:
Regular Season;
Play-Offs in their entirety; but instead almost exclusively about the:
Entire Finals-Series (thus not about any number of Finals games but rather all of them together).

Non-owner of PSD NBA and this particular thread, that I am ... I am "allowing" and encouraging secondary comments about any and all of the proposed candidates' non-Finals-Series yes Play-Off performances.

Your other question: Why isn't Wade at least on the OP list? This is a most-worthy criticism! It should be; and soon will be. My "excuse": I got really busy in the last few hours (and in my busy-ness, I overlooked what I had clearly set out to do "Next" in this thread: update the OP. So many good/great comments have been flowing in that I "got lost" in answering them; rather than that update.

Hopefully, very soon, this problem will be corrected: the OP will be updated.

P.S. Please keep up the good work (I have liked your commenting from long before I joined and/or started this thread).
Yours sincerely,
Pablo

3RDASYSTEM
07-27-2013, 11:04 AM
I'd love to see perimeter player lead snow/mckie to a finals trip and have to shoot 30-40x per game to compete

i'd love to see any so called best of the best take a core they inherited of 5-6ppg(that was his core for 7yrs) and one of those players managed win a 6th man award with 11.7ppg, talk about a miracle worker BROWN and IVERSON were as a player/coach duo

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 12:17 PM
Wade had help from his non-team members in his win. That finals might have been worse than when the Kings got gypped.

flea,
Thanx for contributing your thoughts. My thoughts: He very well could be right. On the other hand, as they say "It was what it was". Ultimately, imo, vis-à-vis the OP, Wade (and despite some/lots of help from non-players on the court) played way better than anybody else in that Finals; AND holds the All-Time Finals-Series PER; so he's gotta be on the OP list. No?

In the two cases you mentioned, I favored one team (Lakers) that the refs also favored, and favored one team (Dallas) that the refs "screwed"; but, in both cases equally, it ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED ME that the refs would be allowed to have such a one-sided influence on the outcomes. In the case of the Lakers-Kings series; these were not one but two top teams, worthy opponents, the refs should have been told to stuff their damn whistles. The fact that the Lakers got more than one critical call; basically, at least for me, myself and I, SPOILED the joy I was expecting to feel with the Lakers' victory - I felt EMPTY. But "it was .... ".

MickeyMgl
07-27-2013, 12:17 PM
MickeyMgl,
Permit me to say, "You're right and you're wrong". If we're talking about the PLAY-OFFS, Kobe was huge; especially in "Hack-A-Shaq" time. But in the FINALS, while Kobe was still great; Shaq was WAY better than him. Agree?

And afterall, the OP focuses on the Finals-Series, rather than the entire Play-offs, no?

Yes, I was and am fully aware of how the OP phrased the question. However, I was replying to another post on its own terms. That one said "Shaq in 2000 playoffs".

Secondly, I think Kobe's Game 4 OT performance would still disqualify Shaq from this discussion. All your other assertions are more or less correct. I might quibble and say "more valuable than" instead of "better than".

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 12:30 PM
I'd love to see perimeter player lead snow/mckie to a finals trip and have to shoot 30-40x per game to compete

i'd love to see any so called best of the best take a core they inherited of 5-6ppg(that was his core for 7yrs) and one of those players managed win a 6th man award with 11.7ppg, talk about a miracle worker BROWN and IVERSON were as a player/coach duo

Most people will grant you that AI did something pretty unique (through-out those Play-Offs and Finals): he gunned and gunned and gunned his team TO the Finals and STOLE a win from probably the greatest Play-Off Team of All-Time (afterall no other team even made the Lakers' Steamroller even sweat. That Duncan-Robinson Team was one of the all-time great teams; and Shaq just humiliated them; and they had ZERO answer for Kobe too). So AI (& company) beat them that first game. But don't forget, the Lakers had a huge, too-long, lay-off between wining the last game of the WCF and playing the first game of the Finals. The Sixers caught them as cold as could be; and barely eked out an overtime win.

BUT, I think the ONLY major problem most people (including myself) have about AI in that Play-Off and Finals run (and most of us would add: throughout his career), is this: he gunned, and gunned and gunned, regardless of what it might have done to his own team's chemistry (and ultimately, its chances to win). AND he gunned at a very low percentage (compared to virtually ALL of the NBA's big-time shooters; AND he even gunned when his teammates were shooting higher percentages than he was - and that was NOT infrequent by any means.

So, I would say this: Love AI to your heart's content (every homer does that with his/her favorite(s); this is what fans tend to do; more power to them/us/me). BUT try NOT to let that love completely-blind you * to AI's obvious and not-small flaws. Just a suggestion.
* And this applies to tons of other fans as well, I'm not by any means singling you out.

SportsFanatic10
07-27-2013, 12:33 PM
wade, his performance in 06 was too good to ignore, shaq wasn't his dominant self anymore and wade just went off in ridiculous fashion. can't ignore that kind of showing.

flea
07-27-2013, 12:48 PM
wade, his performance in 06 was too good to ignore, shaq wasn't his dominant self anymore and wade just went off in ridiculous fashion. can't ignore that kind of showing.

It was a fine performance, to be sure, but the help from the refs both affects his PER and perception of what he did. PER is a pretty crappy stat anyway - Dirk in '06 had a better PER than Wade did (over the whole playoffs, not just the finals). For perspective, of the top 100 FT attempts in a playoffs game in league history Wade has 3 of them in that one series alone (games 3, 5, and 6). Unsurprisingly, the Heat won all 3 of those. Even players like Jordan and Lebron who are notorious for drawing fouls don't have 3 games from one series on that list.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 01:21 PM
Yes, I was and am fully aware of how the OP phrased the question. However, I was replying to another post on its own terms. That one said "Shaq in 2000 playoffs".

Secondly, I think Kobe's Game 4 OT performance would still disqualify Shaq from this discussion. All your other assertions are more or less correct. I might quibble and say "more valuable than" instead of "better than".

MickeyMgl,
I admire the fact that you stick to your guns here. Your points are both: worthy of serious consideration AND being seriously considered.
Thanx,

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 01:22 PM
wade, his performance in 06 was too good to ignore, shaq wasn't his dominant self anymore and wade just went off in ridiculous fashion. can't ignore that kind of showing.

Exactly.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 01:25 PM
It was a fine performance, to be sure, but the help from the refs both affects his PER and perception of what he did. PER is a pretty crappy stat anyway - Dirk in '06 had a better PER than Wade did (over the whole playoffs, not just the finals). For perspective, of the top 100 FT attempts in a playoffs game in league history Wade has 3 of them in that one series alone (games 3, 5, and 6). Unsurprisingly, the Heat won all 3 of those. Even players like Jordan and Lebron who are notorious for drawing fouls don't have 3 games from one series on that list.

flea,
I admire you stick to your guns; and AM GLAD that your post is part of this discussion. We need such a post here to "represent" if you will; the wide-spread sense that the refs "Wade-homered" the series. I can't argue with such a position with such a defense/explanation as yours.

On the other hand, no way can I exclude Wade's overall performance from the OP.

So, let's treat this, your post, as an "official" legitimate "asterix" type "objection. OK? I'm seriously considering including your point as an actual "asterix" note at the bottom of my (hopefully) soon-to-be-redone OP. Would you (and all others who have been justifiably upset (to not use a much strong word)) be at least somewhat comfortable/assuaged with this?
Thanx

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 01:40 PM
You also got to remember that back in the 60s there were 10 teams in the league and 3 rounds in the playoffs. Each team was filled with great players. I don’t think it’s fair to put guys like Wilt and Russell on the list, even though they were the best of that era, but guys like Wade and Dirk and MJ had 28-30 teams 4 playoff rounds different rules.

All-In,
Another thank-you to you (from me & others) is in order.

While I have recently given my general response to the question of Ranking One-Decade Over Others; this, your post, is filled with so many worthy points; I feel the need to respond directly to it.

1) "back in the 60s there were 10 teams in the league ... Each team was filled with great players.."
But this can be as strong an argument AGAINST you as FOR you. Permit me to explain. Given that the talent was more concertrated PER-TEAM; then whenever one of those extra-talented teams had a player that went "One-Man Wrecking Crew" in the Finals; it actually would tend to mean more, than today when many claim that the talent-pool is more diluted. [Myself I don't accept this claim about a supposedly "more diluted" talent-pool. On the contrary, imho, the NBA has never been more popular US-wide and World-wide. Athletes have never been better-conditioned (diet, exercise, stretching, physical-assistants, medicine, machines ...); the $ has never been higher - thus more motivation to try (and try harder) ...) ]

2) "... 3 rounds in the playoffs." At first look, who can argue against 3 rounds being easier than 4 rounds? BUT, given what you've just claimed (and with which I (and most fans who are knowledgeable about those "days") agree); due to that concentrated talent-level, each series tended to be more competitive - increasing the chances noticeably that the "better" team didn't actually win (for any number of reasons; even minor reasons play a bigger role when the talent-level on both sides is higher than otherwise). Further, in the NBA period since the 4-round system was adopted, almost every year with a few but very notable exceptions, the NBA Finals 2 teams have beaten at least one "un-worthy" team. If so, then it really isn't that much QUALITATIVELY different is it? No?

3) Given the two points above, if we can identify any year where people from that era, including but not limited to Wilt and Russ, WHEN IN THE FINALS, they were "One-Man Wrecking-Crews"; then they, imo, HAVE TO BE ON THE OP LIST. Even if you still don't agree, wouldn't you at least admit that this is a worthy-enough counter argument to your position?
Thanx, keep it up,
Pablo

Sly Guy
07-27-2013, 02:04 PM
lebron in cleveland should be added too. Dude had nothing, and I mean NOTHING helping him out.

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 03:49 PM
OP ANNOUNCEMENT:
I've just up-dated the OP, based on all the wonderful suggestions made so far. In an attempt to make the OP as clear and useful as possible, I've re-worked it in a major way; and listed some 19 "candidates" in chronological order (with my initial comments about their merits).
N.B. It is STILL only a work-in-progress; much appreciate everyone's contributions; please keep it up!

Here's the link back to page 1:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?830621-Who-Were-The-Greatest-One-Man-Finals-Series-Wrecking-Crew-Guys&p=26744939#post26744939

Pablonovi
07-27-2013, 03:54 PM
lebron in cleveland should be added too. Dude had nothing, and I mean NOTHING helping him out.

Sly Guy,
Thanx. But here's the problem. IF we look at his non-Finals Play-Offs he'd be way near the top of the OP list; but, that is specifically NOT what the OP is about. It IS about the Finals; and about that year's Finals, I'd guess even LeBron is not super-proud. No?

There IS a general consensus through-out PSD NBA (excepting of course the rabid LeBron haters) that LeBron DID do "More With Less" in his Cleveland years, than almost anyone else in NBA history. I concur with this assessment - he WAS THE KING. That's plenty for a LeBron-iac to be super-proud of * (without needing any exaggerated claims about his one Finals there). No?

* Not even taking into account his first 3 Miami Heat seasons.

Pablonovi
07-29-2013, 07:55 PM
A Special Request For Help In Posting Here A ESPN John Hollinger Multi-Part Article

I've recently read a super-awesome multi-part article by ESPN's John Hollinger that would add hugely to our discussion. Here is the Title (with its date written in parentheses) and Link:

Greatest Finals performances (June 15, 2012 = immediately after the 2012 Finals; N.B. His list covers the entire post ABA-NBA "modern" era ONLY; except of course this years just-played 2013 Finals);

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

I would attempt to post it here in this thread; but I'm NOT betting that I have the necessary skills to do a good-enough job of it.

So, what I'd like to do is delay my probable-botching of this task; in the hopes that one of you better-skilled posters can "do it right". Any takers?

If no one does do it; I'll take my best shot at it in a day or two.

Thanx in advance kindly PLUS skilled poster, if you help us with this,
Pablo

N.B. No knowledgeable NBA Fan is going to agree 100% with Hollinger's rankings; but I'm sure his are way better than mine would have been if I had attempted such a task. He's an NBA Analytic Genius in my book.

P.S. I have asked the "Owners" of PSD NBA if it is OK to post the article in its entirety; and they informed me that it is OK as long as two things apply: the article is from a reputable author (Hollinger sure qualifies) AND the LINK is included. So, if you take this on, please DO include the LINK.

Sports Illustrator
07-29-2013, 10:07 PM
I agree with that list for the most part. I do think its very important to take into account the types of players that the stars were surrounded by, as well as which era these players were performing in during that time period. Remember, the game changes in every single decade. The game of today is very different that the game 10 years ago, as well as 20 years ago and etc. What trends and associations can we make with the time periods? Statistics is very important, but some times it will not tell the whole story.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that I am glad Iverson was added to that list as of recently, referring to when he outperformed everyone in the year 2000. I don't think we should take into account the problems that the players may have had in general, but how well they've performed as well as how much did they contribute towards their teams getting as far as they did. Using the example of Allen Iverson, I can confidently say that the team might not have made the playoffs if he was not in that roster. The Sixers were not a terrible team without Allen Iverson in the year 2000, but there is no doubt that he was the heart and soul of that team.

bagwell368
07-29-2013, 10:20 PM
Comments on the NBA in the 60's:

1. there were no international players in the NBA.
2. the difference between Russell, Wilt, West, and the top tier of stars compared to the 7th-10th players on the average roster was much bigger then than today.
3. players in the 60's were athletically inferior overall (the NBA paid poorly to all but a few, meaning most players had to hold down a 2nd job, so less time to work out; less technology in film study, and coaching.
4. there were not 10 teams through the 60's. 14 teams by the end of the decade. 12 towards the middle.

bagwell368
07-29-2013, 10:30 PM
Greer was an all-star, player voted.

In the '67 Finals, he led the Sixers in ppg (26), assists (6.2 pg) and averaged 8 rpg.

And ignoring Cunningham's contributions is ridiculous

In the playoffs, which this thread is about, Cunnigham was terrible (he may have been hurt, I know he was this year or the following year). Also Greer took a big tumble in the playoffs.

Greer was 27.7/5.9/5.3 which sounds great until you factor in the ahem .429% FG

I know the team real well, I watched them stop Russell's run of rings.

Pablonovi
07-29-2013, 11:01 PM
Comments on the NBA in the 60's:

1. there were no international players in the NBA.
2. the difference between Russell, Wilt, West, and the top tier of stars compared to the 7th-10th players on the average roster was much bigger then than today.
3. players in the 60's were athletically inferior overall (the NBA paid poorly to all but a few, meaning most players had to hold down a 2nd job, so less time to work out; less technology in film study, and coaching.
4. there were not 10 teams through the 60's. 14 teams by the end of the decade. 12 towards the middle.

bagwell,
1. TRUE;
2. QUITE TRUE (the gap WAS BIG);
3. QUITE TRUE (I remember being taught what virtually everyone believed: "Working with weights will throw off your shooting touch."
4. So there was an average, decade-wise, of 12 or so teams per year? Thanx a lot for this particular piece of info. I kept forgetting to challenge the 10-team idea; and was either too busy (I'd like to think) or too lazy (shame on me) for not looking it up.

Thank goodness we only (have to) focus on the best of the best per decade. Based on what you've just laid out, would you agree with my thinking that the only fair way to compare NBA decades is to treat them as equals to each other (even if this can NOT be completely true; it's better than any alternative proposal I've seen, No?)

Mucho thanx as usual Belichick, err I mean bagwell,
Pablo

Pablonovi
07-29-2013, 11:07 PM
I agree with that list for the most part. I do think its very important to take into account the types of players that the stars were surrounded by, as well as which era these players were performing in during that time period. Remember, the game changes in every single decade. The game of today is very different that the game 10 years ago, as well as 20 years ago and etc. What trends and associations can we make with the time periods? Statistics is very important, but some times it will not tell the whole story.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that I am glad Iverson was added to that list as of recently, referring to when he outperformed everyone in the year 2000. I don't think we should take into account the problems that the players may have had in general, but how well they've performed as well as how much did they contribute towards their teams getting as far as they did. Using the example of Allen Iverson, I can confidently say that the team might not have made the playoffs if he was not in that roster. The Sixers were not a terrible team without Allen Iverson in the year 2000, but there is no doubt that he was the heart and soul of that team.

SI, thanx for your reply,
An immediate question of clarification: Are you saying, "I agree with that list for the most part..." referring to our OP here? I ask this because the post immediately before yours was addressing Hollinger's List; and I just want to make sure that what I suspect is true (that you ARE referring to our OP and NOT Hollinger) is indeed true.

About AI. I think that there will ALWAYS be more controversy about his role/contributions than about just about any other top NBA star. I myself go back-and-forth. On the one hand, he could gun his own team down to defeat; on the other hand, NO OTHER TEAM came close to beating those Lakers - so that IS something special. Thanx for sharing your thoughts about AI. (Golly, how dare I compliment you for contributing - well, I did didn't I?!)

It is an honor having you here, even if only temporarily, in this thread,
Mucho thanx,
Pablo

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 04:50 PM
Here is ESPN's Hollinger's Top 50 All-Time Finals Performances (from 1977 onwards; that is, since the ABA-NBA merger). I've divided it up into pieces (due to its length); the first piece is his introduction.
N.B. He does NOT address our OP subject "NBA Finals' 'One-Man Wrecking-Crew' "; but his information is an invaluable resource for our discussion. Keep in mind that his chart (within the introduction is a list of the Top 10 Finals Performers in terms of PER) is NOT the same as his listing for Greatest Finals Performers - he just adds the chart as extra information.

Here's the link:
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

Greatest Finals performances: No. 1
Updated: June 15, 2012, 4:35 AM ET
By John Hollinger | ESPN.com
Editor's note: We're ranking the best Finals performances since the NBA-ABA merger. This list was originally published during the 2008 Finals and is now updated through the 2011 Finals.
The NBA Finals have produced a ton of incredible performances in the three decades since the NBA-ABA merger, starting with Bill Walton's supreme effort against the Sixers in 1977 and going all the way through to Dirk's heroics against the Heat in this year's series.
But inevitably, some of them made more of an impact than others, both on the stat sheet and in other, more subjective terms. And for that reason, some resonate much more than others when we talk about the great moments in Finals history.
That's where this project comes in. Using both numbers and a healthy dose of opinion, my task is to rank the top 50 individual NBA Finals performances since the merger. I've included the player efficiency rating (PER) of every player in the top 50 as a guide, but this wasn't my only measuring stick. Basically, everything counts: competition, defense, clutch play, winning, durability ... it all matters.
From that, we can whittle down a list of top performances. Subjectively, you may agree or disagree with where a given effort ranks -- this isn't the type of exercise where there are right and wrong answers. But in at least one man's view, here's how the 50 best performances since the merger go, from 1 to 50:
Name Team Year PPG RPG APG FG% PER
Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 34.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8
Tim Duncan SA 2003 24.2 17.0 5.3 49.5 32.0
Michael Jordan Chi 1991 31.2 6.6 11.4 55.8 31.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 36.3 12.3 3.8 59.5 31.4
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 38.0 16.7 2.3 61.1 31.1
Michael Jordan Chi 1998 33.5 4.0 2.3 42.7 30.8
Tim Duncan SA 1999 27.4 14.0 2.4 53.7 30.7
Dwyane Wade Mia 2011 26.5 7.0 5.2 54.6 30.2
Michael Jordan Chi 1997 32.3 7.0 6.0 45.6 29.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 33.0 15.8 4.8 57.3 29.4
- - - - - - - - - -

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 05:05 PM
ESPN'S HOLLINGER'S Top 50 Finals Performers (since the ABA-NBA Merger)
N.B. I was unable to copy into this the photos that accompany the original article; but I did go ahead anyway and include the captions that went with the photos - because they ARE part of the description.
You can find my "Part 1" in my previous post;
and here is the link to the overall series:
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

PART 2: The Top 10

Greatest Finals performances: No. 1

Noah Graham/NBAE/Getty ImagesD-Wade was a force in the '06 Finals, rallying the Heat from down 0-2 to bring Miami its first NBA title.
1. Dwyane Wade, Miami, 2006
It's hard to overstate how awesome Wade was in leading the Heat to their lone championship, particularly in the final four games when Miami rallied from a 2-0 deficit to stun the Mavs.
Wade started the comeback by leading the Heat back from a 13-point fourth quarter deficit in Game 3, scoring 12 points in the final 6½ minutes to send the game to OT. He also made the biggest play of the series with his crazy dribbling foray to the rim at the end of overtime in Game 5 that -- controversially -- earned a whistle from referee Bennett Salvatore and a trip to the line for the winning free throws.
For the series, Wade averaged 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 2.7 steals -- and this in a slow-paced series (neither team cleared the century mark in regulation in any of the six games). His basket attacks were so deadly because the Mavs couldn't stop fouling him. Wade shot a whopping 97 free throws in the six games -- the most of any player since the merger -- including 25 in Game 5.
Overall, Wade's 33.8 PER is easily the best of any Finals performer since the merger. While it seems strange to have somebody besides Michael Jordan in the top spot, the truth is Jordan never dominated a Finals to this extent. At the time, many called Wade's performance Jordanesque. It turns out they might have been selling him short.
2006 FINALS Miami 4 Dallas 2
WADE'S STATS: Points pg: 34.7; Boards pg: 7.8; Steals pg 2.7; PER: 33.8
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 2

Fernando Medina/Getty ImagesDoesn't get any prettier than this: MJ hitting the game-winner to clinch the Bulls' 1998 Finals victory.
2. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1998
If any Finals performance can be defined by a single image, it's this one: Jordan at the free-throw line in Salt Lake City, simultaneously holding his form on the game-winning basket in the clinching Game 6 and waving goodbye to the game of basketball … at least for a while.
This would be his final effort in a Bulls uniform as well as his last championship. Jordan was huge in both of Chicago's road wins -- victories the Bulls needed, since Utah had home-court advantage -- with 37 points in a 93-88 Game 2 win and 45 in the clincher. That included the final two baskets, bracketing a strip of the ball from Karl Malone and helping Chicago overcome a debilitating back injury to Scottie Pippen.
Jordan's numbers in the other games weren't too shabby, either, as he averaged 33.5 points and nearly 12 free-throw attempts per game overall. His 30.8 PER for the series is superhuman by anyone else's standards, especially in the Finals. And because of how good he was in the most important moments, his performance earns the No. 2 spot on the list.
1998 FINALS
Chicago 4 Uah 2
JORDAN'S STATS: Points pg: 33.5; Boards pg: 4.0; Assists pg 2.3; PER: 30.8
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 3

3. Tim Duncan, San Antonio, 2003
The single most underrated Finals performance of all time, hands down, belongs to Duncan in 2003.
Relatively few viewers saw it because of the Spurs-Nets pairing, and because of the general consensus that the East was something of a minor league. But Duncan was unbelievable.
Despite going up against two top-notch defensive players in Kenyon Martin and Dikembe Mutombo, and despite lacking a superstar teammate to deflect attention (Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were just getting their feet wet, while David Robinson was on his way out), Duncan completely dominated. His averages of 24.2 points, 17.0 boards and 5.3 assists were impressive enough, but what really sealed the deal was his defense.
Duncan averaged 5.3 blocks per game for the series, the most of any player since the merger, and was at his best in the clinching Game 6 as San Antonio rallied from an eight-point fourth-quarter deficit. He fell two blocks shy of a quadruple-double and forced the Nets' Martin into a 3-for-23 disaster from the floor. Overall, his 32.0 PER for the series is the second-best since the merger.
2003 FINALS
San Antonio 4 New Jersey 2
DUNCAN'S STATS: Points pg: 24.2; Boards pg: 17.0; Assists pg 5.3; PER: 32.0
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 4

Andy Hayt/NBAE/Getty Images Somehow MJ carried the Bulls past the Jazz, even if he had to lean on Scottie Pippen in the Flu Game.
4. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1997
Yes, Jordan produced another strong series overall, but the reason this one resonates is because of the Flu Game.
With the series tied at 2 and Utah looking to steal the momentum, Jordan was weak and nauseated and in no shape to play Game 5. Somehow, he still did.
And man, did he play well. I would argue it is still the most amazing performance I've ever seen, a night when the Jordan legend went to yet another ridiculous level. Fighting exhaustion and dehydration and practically needing to be carried to the bench during timeouts in the fourth quarter, Jordan led the Bulls back from an early 16-point deficit by scoring 38 points in a 90-88 victory that gave them the upper hand.
He surrounded that heroic Game 5 effort with two game-winning plays. In the opener, he hit a game-winning jumper at the buzzer over Bryon Russell and finished with 31. And in the clincher, during a 39-point, 11-rebound effort, he waited for a double-team and found a wide-open Steve Kerr for the series-winning jumper.
For the series, Jordan had another amazing line -- 32.3 points, 7.0 rebounds, 6.0 assists and a 29.5 PER. But it was the clutch plays and the Flu Game that put this one so high in the stratosphere.
1997 FINALS Chicago 4 Uah 2
JORDAN'S STATS: Points pg: 32.3; Boards pg: 7.0; Assists pg 6.0; PER: 29.5
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 5

Nathaniel S. Butler/NBAE/Getty ImagesWhy is Olajuwon entering the Hall of Fame in 2008? Start with his 1994 Finals domination of Ewing.
5. Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston, 1994
This series didn't strike a chord with casual fans, except when the O.J. Simpson car chase interrupted Game 5. But Olajuwon's performance was unquestionably historic.
The 1993-94 Knicks were one of the best defensive teams of all time; you could argue, in fact, that no team has ever defended better than those Riley-era Knicks. Furthermore, Olajuwon was going up against not only a great D, but also its linchpin in fellow 2008 Hall of Famer Patrick Ewing. Their matchup was one of the few times in recent history that two all-timers went head-to-head in a Finals and guarded each other nearly the entire time.
And Olajuwon absolutely crushed Ewing. The Dream hardly came off the floor, averaging 43.1 minutes per game for the series, and his freakish stat line included 26.9 points, 9.1 boards, 3.9 blocks and 3.6 assists.
Included in those numbers were a game-saving block of a John Starks jumper in Game 6, and an assist on the series-clinching 3-pointer by Vernon Maxwell in Game 7. Given the level of the competition and the defensive nature of the series, Olajuwon produced an amazing effort that transcended his 27.1 PER.
As for Ewing? He shot 36.9 percent with a 15.5 PER, and Olajuwon outscored him in all seven games. If not for such total domination in the battle of Hall of Fame centers, Houston wouldn't have come close to the title.
1994 FINALS Houston 4 New York 3
OLAJUWON'S STATS: Points pg: 26.9; Boards pg: 9.1; Blocks pg 3.9; PER: 27.1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 6

Getty Images Magic's baby hook and big smile were two things that made this Lakers-Celtics matchup memorable.
6. Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers, 1987
Quick: Name another point guard whose most famous shot is a sky hook in the lane over a 6-11 Hall of Famer.
That's the shot Magic Johnson made to win Game 4 in Boston Garden, nailing a 10-foot flip over Kevin McHale to cap a rally from 16 points down that crushed Boston's hopes of repeating as champion.
He wasn't too shabby the rest of the series, either. Johnson had 29 points, 13 assists, eight rebounds and no turnovers in the opener and, in the clincher, again fell just two rebounds shy of a triple-double. For the series, he averaged 26.2 points, 13 assists, eight boards and 2.3 steals, with a Game 4 shot spiked by journeyman backup center Greg Kite the only indignity in an otherwise masterful performance. Johnson also was remarkably mistake-proof, with only 13 turnovers in the six games, a 24-for-25 effort from the free-throw line and a 54.1 percent shooting mark.
Plus, he has to get bonus points for the quality of the competition. Given the high level of play of both the Lakers and the Celtics in the late 1980s, dominating a series to this extent was an impressive accomplishment.
1987 FINALS Los Angeles 4 Boston 2
JOHNSON'S STATS: Points pg: 26.2; Boards pg: 8.0; Assists pg 13.0; PER: 28.2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 7

Ken Levine/Getty Images It took seven hard years for MJ to win a title. And then it took him only seven years to win five more.
7. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1991
We remember Jordan's first championship as much for the crying jag that followed as for what he did on the court, but he was at the peak of his powers and produced an impressive effort.
He pumped in 31.2 points per game for the series, but he was a more active passer than usual: He averaged 11.4 assists, including several dishes to John Paxson down the stretch of Game 5, when Jordan took a rare backseat to a hot teammate.
Nonetheless, His Airness dominated throughout. His 31.5 PER for the series was the third-best since the merger, and he practically won Game 3 by himself -- he played all but one minute, hit the game-tying shot at the end of regulation and scored six points in the overtime.
Game 2 was highlighted by "Oh, a spectacular move ... by Michael Jordan!" as he drove down the middle and went up with the right hand, then brought the ball down and finished with the left, all at his usual cruising altitude.
1991 FINALS Chicago 4 Los Angeles 1
JORDAN'S STATS: Points pg: 31.2; Boards pg: 6.6; Assists pg 11.4; PER: 31.5
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Greatest Finals performances: No. 8

Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE/Getty Images Shaq's teammates seem in disbelief at the Diesel's mind-bending 38 ppg decimation of the Pacers.
8. Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers, 2000
The Diesel was at the top of his powers in 2000, dominating the Pacers in the paint to help L.A. claim its first of three straight titles.
Shaq had 43 in the opener and 41 in the clincher, and he wasn't too shabby in between. Thanks to Indiana's Hack-a-Shaq strategy, O'Neal took an absurd 39 free throws in Game 2 -- even more absurd, he made only 18 -- on his way to a 40-point night in a Lakers win.
For the series, O'Neal shot 61.1 percent from the floor … but only 38.7 percent from the line. Despite the missed freebies, his averages were superhuman -- Shaq's 38.0 points were the second-most ever by a player on a winning team. He also netted 16.7 boards and 2.7 blocks -- and he played more than 45 minutes a game in the series, an insane total for a low-post player.
O'Neal did miss out on one key moment, as he fouled out with 2:33 left in overtime in the pivotal Game 4. But the Lakers prevailed behind Kobe Bryant to go up 3-1, and they clinched the series two games later.
2000 FINALS Los Angeles 4 Indiana 2
O’NEAL'S STATS: Points pg: 38.0; Boards pg: 16.7; Blocks pg 2.7; PER: 31.1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 9

AP Photo/Adrees Latif Shaq must have looked 12 feet tall to the Nets, who were steamrolled as the Lakers threepeated.
9. Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers, 2002
These Finals didn't exactly set hearts racing, not with the Lakers entering as an overwhelming favorite for a third straight title before cruising to a four-game sweep.
Still, what O'Neal accomplished was noteworthy. Those Nets weren't much to look at offensively, but they made the Finals with an elite defensive squad. Yet O'Neal obliterated them in the four games, earning a whopping 17 free-throw attempts per contest while averaging 36.3 points and 12.3 rebounds and shooting 59.5 percent from the floor. He even made his foul shots this time, converting 66.2 percent.
Shaq had his opponents demoralized by Game 2, when he scored 36 points in the first three quarters in a 106-83 rout, and he set records for points and free throw attempts in a four-game series. Amazingly, he was whistled for only seven fouls in the four games.
2002 FINALS Los Angeles 4 New Jersey 0
O’NEAL'S STATS: Points pg: 36.3; Boards pg: 12.3; Blocks pg 3.8; PER: 31.4

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: No. 10

AP Photo/John Swart The Shrug … 35 points in a half … 46 points in Game 5 … a big steal in Game 6. Just MJ being MJ.
10. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1992
We remember it now simply as The Shrug.
In the first half of Game 1, a scorching-hot Michael Jordan hit his sixth 3-pointer and then looked over to the broadcast table and gave a disbelieving, palms-up shrug. As good as he was, not even Jordan could believe how hot he'd become -- he had a Finals-record 35 points in the first half.
The rest of his series wasn't quite as good. In fact, a silly fourth-quarter tech on Jordan helped Portland rally from 10 down to steal Game 2 in overtime.
But in the end, Jordan still produced a Finals to remember. He pumped in 35.8 points per game, handed out 6.5 assists, shot 52.5 percent from the floor and posted an insane 61.7 True Shooting Percentage. Forget that it was Jordan for a second, and his PER of 29.2 for the series looks pretty amazing, too, given that the Blazers were an elite defensive team that year.
Jordan also came up biggest when needed most. He scored 46 points in Game 5 as Chicago's 119-106 win snapped a 2-2 series tie, and he picked Buck Williams clean under the basket to get a key dunk as the Bulls rallied from 14 down in the fourth to win Game 6 and claim the title.
1992 FINALS Chicago 4 Portland 2
JORDAN'S STATS: Points pg: 35.8; Boards pg: 4.8; Assists pg 6.5; PER: 29.2
Greatest Finals performances: 11-20

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 05:16 PM
ESPN's Hollinger's Top 50 Finals Performers
This is my Part 3: #s 11-30

Greatest Finals performances: 11-20
11. TIM DUNCAN, SAN ANTONIO, 1999
San Antonio 4 New York 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.4
Boards per game: 14.0
Blocks per game: 2.2
PER: 30.7
With the NBA reeling from missing part of the season due to a lockout, and with two defensive-minded teams squaring off in the Finals, a lot of fans gave this one a pass.
Those who stuck around witnessed a dominating effort on both ends by Duncan, who averaged 27.4 points and 14.0 rebounds, shot 53 percent from the floor and even went 35-for-44 from the line. Included in Duncan's tally were 33 and 16 in the opener and a run in the second half of the clinching Game 5 when he scored 14 of San Antonio's 15 points.
Meanwhile, he keyed one of the best defensive efforts in Finals history -- New York didn't clear 90 points the entire series and mustered only 67 in a suffocating Game 2 Spurs win.
With Duncan leading the way, San Antonio set an NBA record by winning 12 straight playoff games, and his series PER of 30.7 is the seventh-best since the merger. He also is one of only four players -- Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Dwyane Wade are the others -- to have two or more Finals series with a 30-plus PER.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
12. MAGIC JOHNSON, LOS ANGELES, 1988
Los Angeles 4 Detroit 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 21.0
Boards per game: 5.7
Assists per game: 13.0
PER: 27.5
James Worthy won the '88 Finals MVP award because people were sick of voting for Magic and Worthy had a monstrous Game 7 … or maybe it was because they were so freaked out by Magic's pregame smooches with Isiah Thomas.
Nonetheless, Johnson was again at his best in L.A.'s seven-game white-knuckler against Detroit. In fact, I nominate his effort as the best non-MVP performance in a Finals.
It's a testament to how good he was that 21.1 points and 13.0 assists could be taken for granted, especially when he battled through the flu to score 23 in the must-win Game 2 after Detroit won the opener at the Forum. Magic also shot 55 percent from the floor against the Pistons' vaunted D and had a whopping 67.6 true shooting percentage.
In doing so, he helped the Lakers become the first team in two decades to repeat as champions.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
13. SHAQUILLE O'NEAL, LOS ANGELES, 2001
Los Angeles 4 Philadelphia 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 33.0
Boards per game: 15.8
Blocks per game: 3.4
PER: 29.4
The Lakers made one of the most dominating runs in playoff history in 2001, losing only once, and the Diesel again led the way. He averaged 33 points and 15.8 rebounds in a five-game dismantling of Philly, even though he was going against an all-time great defensive player, the Sixers' Dikembe Mutombo. In fact, the Sixers had acquired Mutombo specifically to play Shaq.
Lots of good that did. Even in the Lakers' one defeat, a Game 1 upset in L.A., Shaq rocked and rolled to 44 points and 20 rebounds. In Game 2, he expanded his repertoire by finishing two blocks and an assist short of a quadruple double.
For the series, he averaged 15.2 free-throw attempts per game and 6.2 offensive rebounds, highlighting the behemoth center's physical domination in the middle.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
14. MICHAEL JORDAN, CHICAGO, 1993
Chicago 4 Phoenix 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 41.0
Boards per game: 8.5
Assists per game: 6.3
PER: 27.6
Everyone now forgets because of the ending, but before John Paxson's jumper went in to win the series, Jordan had all nine of Chicago's fourth-quarter points in Game 6. And of course, the only reason Paxson was so open was that the Suns doubled Jordan in the backcourt -- no way were they letting him shoot.
Jordan became the first player to score 40 or more points in four straight Finals games, and he exploded for 55 in Game 4 -- the only one won by the home team in the series. He averaged 41.0 for the series, along with 8.5 boards and 6.3 assists, and amazingly committed only 16 turnovers in the six games.
It's a testament to how good Jordan was that this effort ranks only fifth on his personal list.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
15. KOBE BRYANT, LOS ANGELES, 2009
Los Angeles 4 Orlando 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 32.4
Boards per game: 5.6
Assists per game: 7.4
PER: 28.3
Bryant averaged 32 points in leading the Lakers to their first title of the post-Shaq era, setting the tone with a dominant effort in the Lakers' Game 1 rout and then sticking the knife in at the end with two buckets in overtime of Game 4 to give L.A. a 3-1 series lead over the Magic. He capped it with 30 points, six rebounds, five assists and four blocks in the Game 5 clincher.
And he shared the rock, too -- Bryant averaged 7.4 assists per game for the series, helping L.A. carve up a stout Orlando defense led by Defensive Player of the Year Dwight Howard.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
16. ISIAH THOMAS, DETROIT, 1990
Detroit 4 Portland 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.6
Boards per game: 5.2
Assists per game: 7.0
PER: 27.1
Isiah's performance in this series tends to get lost in the shuffle -- it was a repeat championship with little drama, and of course our primary Isiah memory from the Finals is his third-quarter performance in Game 6 in 1988.
But as far as an entire series goes, this was his greatest moment. He took charge in Game 1 when the Blazers threatened to upset Detroit, scoring 14 points in a 19-4 fourth-quarter run after Portland led by 10 with seven minutes left. He also exploded for a 22-point third quarter in Game 3.
For the series, Thomas averaged 27.6 points, seven assists and 5.2 rebounds, and shot 54.2 percent. Not known as a 3-point shooter, he also went 11-for-16 from downtown.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
17. CHAUNCEY BILLUPS, DETROIT, 2004
Detroit 4 Los Angeles 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 21.0
Boards per game: 3.2
Assists per game: 5.2
PER: 27.1
Billups led the way in one of the most shocking Finals ever, keying Detroit's surprise rout of the Lakers.
He was at his best in the opener, scoring 11 first-quarter points to put L.A. on its heels and finishing with 22 points and three steals in the 87-75 win. For the series, he averaged 21.0 points and 5.2 assists, and he played a big role in the Pistons' suffocating defensive effort that humiliated the vaunted Lakers attack in four of the five games.
The per-game averages aren't that eye popping, so to really appreciate Billups' effort, you have to check out the fine print. He scored 105 points with only 57 field goal attempts -- chew on that one for a second. Factoring in his 92.3 percent shooting from the line, his true shooting percentage was 69.5. Plus, in a series that was played at a snail's pace, his per-game stats don't nearly do justice to how well he played.
Not bad for a guy who'd been cast off by five teams before coming to Detroit.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
18. KARL MALONE, UTAH, 1998
Chicago 4 Utah 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.0
Boards per game: 10.5
Assists per game: 3.8
PER: 26.8
The Mailman doesn't have a great playoff rep, but he was outstanding in the '98 Finals.
Going up against one of the all-time great defenders, Dennis Rodman, Malone racked up 25.0 points, 10.5 boards and 3.8 assists, and went off for 39 points in Game 5 in Chicago -- mostly on high-difficulty baseline jumpers over Rodman -- to postpone the Bulls' title celebration.
No, the series didn't have a happy ending for Malone, but his effort is my choice as the best by a losing player in the post-merger era. Against almost any other opponent, it likely would have produced a trophy.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
19. MOSES MALONE, PHILADELPHIA, 1983
Philadelphia 4 Los Angeles 0

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.8
Boards per game: 18.0
Blocks per game: 1.5
PER: 26.0
Philly's attempt to go fo', fo' and fo' didn't make for riveting theater, but Malone's 1983 Finals was the high point in one of the league's most underrated careers.
Matched up against one of the all-time greats, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Malone utterly dominated. He averaged 25.8 points and 18.0 boards in the four-game sweep, out-rebounding Kareem 72-30 for the series. In fact, Moses had nearly as many offensive boards (27) as Kareem had total rebounds (30).
This performance might rank higher had the Lakers been at full strength, but James Worthy, Bob McAdoo and Norm Nixon all were on the shelf for part or all of it. Nonetheless, Malone's effort capped one of the most dominating playoff runs in league history.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
20. DWYANE WADE, MIAMI, 2011
Dallas 4 Miami 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.5
Boards per game: 7.0
Assists per game: 5.2
PER: 30.2
Wade's Miami team came up short, but it wasn't his fault. He was one of the few players in history to post a PER above 30 in the NBA Finals, and he might have done more if he hadn't hurt his hip midway through Game 5 -- for the final six quarters of the series he was dramatically less effective.
Wade can also lament a crucial missed free throw at the end of Game 4, but otherwise he was brilliant -- averaging 26.5 points, 7.0 boards, 5.2 assists, 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks. Included in that total was perhaps the highlight of the series -- a spectacular rejection of a dunk try by 7-foot-1 Dallas center Tyson Chandler.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: 21-30
21. SHAWN KEMP, SEATTLE, 1996
Chicago 4 Seattle 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 23.3
Boards per game: 10.0
Blocks per game: 2.0
PER: 25.8
This might have been the only series in Michael Jordan's career in which he wasn't the best player on the floor. Although the Bulls still won in a relatively easy six games, Kemp was a force of nature throughout.
Reign Man averaged 23.3 points, 10.0 boards and two blocks, and shot 55.1 percent for the series. He did this, mind you, against the greatest team of all time, showcasing his freakish athleticism along with a surprisingly smooth midrange J and seemingly stamping himself as a superstar for the next decade.
As we all know, it didn't quite turn out that way for Kemp, but his was one of the best performances ever by a player on a losing team.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
22. BILL WALTON, PORTLAND, 1977
Portland 4 Philadelphia 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.5
Boards per game: 19.0
Blocks per game: 3.7
PER: 23.3
While the rest of Walton's career was wrecked by injuries, it all came together for him in 1976-77 -- good health, a perfect system and perfect teammates.
The result was one of the classic whole-greater-than-the-parts teams in league history, with Big Red leading the way. In the Finals, he stuffed the stat sheet with 19.0 boards, 5.2 assists and 3.7 blocks per game, and he wasn't too shabby as a scorer, either, with 18.5 points a game on 54.5 percent shooting.
He did his best after Portland fell behind 2-0, going for 20-18-9 in Game 3 and an unbelievable 20-23-8-7 in the clinching Game 6.
Walton's 114 total rebounds and 19.0 per game are the most by any player since the merger, and his final PER of 23.3 probably underestimates things a bit. We don't have individual turnover data for the 1977 Finals; since bad players make more turnovers than good ones, that tends to skew everyone's numbers toward the middle.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
23. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, L.A. LAKERS, 1980
Los Angeles 4 Philadelphia 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 33.4
Boards per game: 13.6
Blocks per game: 4.6
PER: 27.3
What about Magic? We'll get to him later down the list.
But through five games, Kareem was the dominating force in the 1980 Finals -- that's why everyone thought the Lakers were screwed in Game 6 with him out of the lineup.
Abdul-Jabbar averaged 33.4 points in the first five games and would have had more if he hadn't gone down with an ankle injury early in the second half of Game 5.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
24. KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS, 2010
Los Angeles 4 Boston 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 28.6
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 3.9
PER: 26.3
Everyone remembers the 6-for-24 in Game 7, but what they all forget is how well Bryant played in the first six games of the series. That's why he won Finals MVP despite the stinker in the finale, and that's why he's so far up this list. Bryant averaged 28.6 points per game and took an impressive 60 free throws over the seven games. He also chipped in on the glass, yanking down eight boards a game -- more than any Celtic.
And while he shot poorly in the finale, he made a couple at the end to fuel the Lakers' comeback from a 13-point deficit in the second half. Meanwhile, he did plenty of damage early -- his 30-7-6 in the opener gave L.A. the early series lead.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
25. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, L.A. LAKERS, 1985
Los Angeles 4 Boston 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.7
Boards per game: 9.0
Assists per game: 5.2
PER: 23.8
It was Celtics versus Lakers in Boston Garden, which meant the leprechauns were supposed to lead Boston to victory. Kareem had other ideas. He dominated the clinching Game 6 with 29 points, and at one point the 38-year-old big man took a rebound and led a 2-on-1 break before dishing to Kurt Rambis for a layup.
It was quite a turnaround after he'd been held to 12 points and three boards in the 148-114 Memorial Day Massacre in Game 1. But he averaged 28.8 points over the final five games and shot 60.6 percent for the series, earning MVP honors for ending L.A.'s Gah-den curse.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
26. PAU GASOL, LOS ANGELES, 2010
Los Angeles 4 Boston 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.6
Blocks per game: 2.6
PER: 25.5
The Lakers couldn't make a shot for most of Game 7 against Boston, but it didn't matter because Gasol was always there to clean it up. His 18 rebounds against Boston -- nine of them offensive -- allowed L.A. to overcome ice-cold 32.5 percent shooting and win the title anyway.
Maligned for his effort against Boston in 2008, Gasol was consistently excellent all series. He filled the stat sheet with 18.6 points, 11.6 rebounds, 3.7 assists and 2.6 blocks, an especially impressive performance given the low-scoring series. While Kobe Bryant won the Finals MVP, Gasol had a legitimate argument on the strength of his Game 7.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
27. LARRY BIRD, BOSTON, 1984
Boston 4 Los Angeles 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.4
Boards per game: 14.0
Assists per game: 3.4
PER: 23.0
Bird was the best player in what was quite possibly the best series ever. That alone deserves respect. He also came up big in the two most crucial wins, shooting 15-for-20 in a 34-point effort in Game 5, and then coming back with 20 points and 12 boards in the clinching Game 7.
For the series he averaged 27.4 points and 14.0 rebounds. Though his PER was lower than that of several other players in this portion of the list, once you adjust for the high level of competition, it merits a top-30 position.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
28. CLYDE DREXLER, PORTLAND, 1990&
Detroit 4 Portland 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.4
Boards per game: 7.8
Assists per game: 6.2
PER: 26.0
The Blazers lost in five, but don't blame the Glide. He filled the stat sheet with 26.4 points, 7.8 boards and 6.2 assists, and shot 54.3 percent on the series. Unfortunately, the Blazers lost three games at the wire and ended up succumbing in five, but that shouldn't tarnish what was an outstanding Finals debut by Drexler.
He also was huge in the Blazers' only win, scoring 33 points and making the game-winning foul shots at the end of overtime in Game 2. He nearly pulled a similar feat in Game 4 before Detroit responded with a last-second bucket.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
29. SHAQUILLE O'NEAL, L.A. LAKERS, 2004
Detroit 4 Los Angeles 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.6
Boards per game: 10.8
Blocks per game: 2.8
PER: 25.7
The Lakers' implosion in 2004 was, in part, a byproduct of the Shaq-Kobe feud that simmered just below the surface, and occasionally above it, all season.
But in the Finals it appeared to affect Kobe much more than Shaq. Though he was going against one of the great defenses of all time, O'Neal shot 63.1 percent from the floor and averaged 26.6 points per game.
Alas, Kobe was off his game and the supporting cast was brutal, so the Pistons dismissed L.A. in five surprisingly easy games. Also, Shaq's record string of 21 straight Finals games with 25 or more points finally ended in the Lakers' Game 3 defeat at the Palace.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
30. MICHAEL JORDAN, CHICAGO, 1996
Chicago 4 Seattle 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 5.3
Assists per game: 4.2
PER: 23.1
The '96 Bulls were the greatest team in history, but Jordan's Finals effort was the least impressive of his six.
Of course, this is a bit like being the least shiny of the crown jewels -- Jordan averaged 27.3 points per contest and took 11 free throws a game.
And though the series didn't give us any of the last-second Jordan heroics we saw in his other Finals games, that's partly because they weren't needed -- all but one of the games were well in hand by the final minute. Instead, our main memory of this one is Jordan running to the locker room and weeping after the clinching game in his first Finals since the death of his father.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

el hidalgo
08-13-2013, 05:17 PM
you keep bumping this, ima report you

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 05:18 PM
ESPN's Hollinger's Top 50 Finals Performers
This is my Part 4: #s 31-50

Greatest Finals performances: 31-40
31. HAKEEM OLAJUWON, HOUSTON, 1995
Houston 4 Orlando 0

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 32.8
Boards per game: 11.5
Assists per game: 5.5
PER: 22.2
The Dream went up against Shaq in the 1995 Finals, his second straight head-to-head Finals against an elite Hall of Famer, and once again Olajuwon got the better of it. This time his domination wasn't as thorough as it was against Patrick Ewing a year earlier, but it didn't need to be.
Once the Magic kicked away a 20-point lead at home in the opener, with Olajuwon's overtime tip-in with 0.3 left providing the winning margin, the Rockets were home free and cruised to a four-game sweep. Olajuwon averaged 32.8 points, 11.5 boards and 5.5 assists, and while Shaq got his (28 and 12), the Dream anchored a defense that held the rest of Orlando's vaunted attack in check.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
32. MAGIC JOHNSON, L.A. LAKERS, 1980
Los Angeles Lakers 4 Philadelphia 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.0
Boards per game: 6.6
Assists per game: 2.6
PER: 23.3
It was one of the most impressive one-game performances in NBA history: Magic Johnson, a 20-year-old rookie, moved from point guard to center, scored 42 points and grabbed 15 rebounds, and led L.A. to a title-clinching Game 6 win on the road.
For his efforts, he won Finals MVP and instant adulation, but he's this low in these rankings because we're ranking the series as a whole, and his first five games weren't nearly as dominant. He did, however, make several big baskets in Game 5 while Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was sidelined with a sprained ankle.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
33. DIRK NOWITZKI, DALLAS, 2011
Dallas 4 Miami 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.0
Boards per game: 9.7
Assists per game: 2.0
PER: 20.1
Nowitzki's overall numbers don't rank as highly as some of the others on this list, but he gets extra points for timing. Dirk made the winning shot in Game 2 and another last-second field goal to clinch Game 4 -- one a left-handed layup, one a right-handed layup -- as the Mavs pulled off a pair of surprise comebacks to even the series. The Game 4 win, with Nowitzki battling the flu and a torn finger tendon, was particular notable -- as was the ensuing "snifflegate" with Miami's Dwyane Wade and LeBron James.
But Dirk wasn't done. Another Mavs comeback in Game 5 featured a Nowitzki dunk as the go-ahead bucket, moments after he'd found Jason Terry for a game-tying triple. Cementing his rep as one of the game's great shooters, Nowitzki went 47-of-48 from the line for the series to lead Dallas to its first-ever championship.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
34. LARRY BIRD, BOSTON, 1986
Boston 4 Houston 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 24.0
Boards per game: 9.7
Assists per game: 9.5
PER: 22.4
The '86 Celtics were one of the great all-time teams, and Bird topped off his MVP regular season with a strong Finals. What was impressive about this one was the completeness of it -- he averaged nearly a triple-double with 24 points, 9.7 boards and 9.5 assists, and he went 31-of-33 from the stripe as Boston topped the Rockets in six games.
Bird's effort included a Game 3 triple-double in a loss, and he hit the go-ahead 3-pointer late in Game 4 in Houston. In the Game 6 clincher, he had 16 points, eight rebounds and eight assists -- by halftime. He finished with another triple-double as Boston won in a rout.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
35. JULIUS ERVING, PHILADELPHIA, 1977
Portland 4 Philadelphia 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 30.3
Boards per game: 6.8
Assists per game: 5.0
PER: 24.4
The Doctor had a big offensive series against the Blazers, and perhaps it would have turned out differently if his teammates had been able to get him the ball at the end of Game 6. In his first Finals after coming over from the ABA, Erving got loose for 30.3 points per game and shot 54.3 percent on the series. Included in the effort was a 33-point outburst in Game 1 and a 37-point night as the Sixers fell just short in the pivotal Game 5.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
36. ISIAH THOMAS, DETROIT, 1988
Los Angeles 4 Detroit 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 19.7
Assists per game: 9.0
Steals per game: 2.9
PER: 20.5
Few can forget the sight of Thomas doggedly hopping up and down the court in the third quarter of Game 6, when he finished off a 25-point outburst with a driving lay-up despite a sprained ankle. And not enough people remember the crazy four-point play he banked in a moment earlier. The Pistons nearly upset L.A. for the crown.
Alas, a final-minute lead evaporated in Game 6, and a gimpy Thomas couldn't quite muster enough in the seventh game and had to check out in the third quarter. But his series as a whole was still a strong one -- 19.7 points, 9.0 assists, 2.9 steals -- and he would get his ring a year later.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
37. DAVID ROBINSON, SAN ANTONIO, 1999
San Antonio 4 New York 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.6
Boards per game: 11.8
Blocks per game: 3.0
PER: 26.3
What made this edition of the Spurs so dangerous is that both the Admiral and Tim Duncan were near the peak of their powers. Once Robinson's back loosened up, San Antonio shook off a 6-8 start to finish the season on a 46-7 tear.
He was a lethal second weapon against the Knicks in the Finals, too, with 18.6 points, 11.8 boards and 3.0 blocks, and he piled up 48 free-throw attempts in five games on his way to his first championship. In Game 4, Duncan (18) and Robinson (17) combined to outrebound the entire Knicks team.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
38. CHAUNCEY BILLUPS, DETROIT, 2005
San Antonio 4 Detroit 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 20.4
Boards per game: 5.0
Assists per game: 6.3
PER: 23.7
No losing player has won the Finals MVP since the merger, but Billups probably should have. Detroit narrowly lost in seven games, and Billups was the most effective player in the series, averaging 20.4 points and 6.3 assists per game, hitting 40-of-44 from the line and grossly outplaying San Antonio counterpart Tony Parker.
Billups was so effective that San Antonio switched defensive ace Bruce Bowen onto him at the end of Game 7, resulting in one of his few cold stretches -- a badly timed one that allowed the Spurs to claim the series.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
39. TONY PARKER, SAN ANTONIO, 2007
San Antonio 4 Cleveland 0

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 24.5
Boards per game: 5.0
Assists per game: 3.3
PER: 26.0
This was an absolute dog of a series, with Cleveland overmatched against the mighty Spurs, but let's give Parker credit for shooting better than ever. He scored 24.5 points per game and shot 56.8 percent from the floor by continually punishing the Cavs for conceding long jumpers to him in order to stop his drives.
That's been the game plan against Parker his whole career, but for four games that June his shooting stroke gave him the perfect antidote.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
40. JOE DUMARS, DETROIT, 1989
Detroit 4 Los Angeles 0

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 1.8
Assists per game: 6.0
PER: 26.0
As with Parker in 2007, Dumars' outstanding play is diminished a bit by the mismatch that took place on the court. Had he posted his 27.2 points and 6.0 assists per game against Magic Johnson and Byron Scott, we could put him much further up the list.
As it was, he did most of it against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp. Dumars did, however, score 22 points as the Pistons smoked the Lakers in Game 1 with Magic still in the lineup, and he made a game-saving block at the end of Game 3.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Greatest Finals performances: 41-50
41. TIM DUNCAN, SAN ANTONIO, 2007
San Antonio 4 Cleveland 0

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 18.3
Boards per game: 11.5
Blocks per game: 2.25
PER: 25.2
Some felt Duncan should have been the series MVP instead of Parker, and those folks had a case. While Duncan struggled offensively in the Game 4 clincher, it was his rock-solid defense that provided the backbone of a scheme to suffocate Cavs star LeBron James. Additionally, he posted his usual solid numbers -- 18.3 points, 11.5 boards, 2.3 blocks -- and nearly matched Parker in terms of PER.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
42. MOSES MALONE, HOUSTON, 1981
Boston 4 Houston 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 22.2
Boards per game: 16.3
Blocks per game: 2.17
PER: 22.5
Malone famously boasted that he could get four guys from his hometown of Parkersburg, Va., and beat the Celtics after the upstart Rockets, who were only 40-42 in the regular season, evened the series at 2-2. Houston ultimately fell short, but not before Malone averaged 22.2 points, 16.3 boards and 2.2 blocks. Although Malone only shot 40.3 percent, he was clearly the best player on the floor in this series and was another Finals loser who nonetheless had a strong case for MVP.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
43. CHARLES BARKELY, PHOENIX, 1993
Chicago 4 Phoenix 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.3
Boards per game: 13.0
Assists per game: 5.5
PER: 22.5
Sir Charles wasn't quite the equal of the Bulls, but his 27.3 points, 13.0 boards and 5.5 assists kept Phoenix in the series right up until John Paxson's jumper at the end of Game 6.
Barkley had a crucial steal and basket that clinched an epic triple-OT victory in Game 3, a turning point in the series after the Suns had dropped the first two games at home. Then he led Phoenix to another win in his "save the city" Game 5, after some in Chicago had warned that championship celebrations might get out of hand.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
44. SCOTTIE PIPPEN, CHICAGO, 1992
Chicago 4 Portland 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 20.8
Boards per game: 8.3
Assists per game: 7.7
PER: 21.5
Pippen was always the second banana to Michael Jordan, but he had his best Finals performance in the '92 series against Portland.
Scottie was effectively the Bulls' point guard, finishing with 20.8 points and 7.7 assists on the series, and he saved his best for the end. In the crucial Game 5 win at Portland, Pippen was an assist shy of a triple-double, and a major component of a defense that forced 28 Blazer turnovers. And in the clincher, he came up big again, with 26 points.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
45. TIM DUNCAN, SAN ANTONIO, 2005
San Antonio 4 Detroit 3

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 20.6
Boards per game: 14.1
Blocks per game: 2.14
PER: 21.8
Duncan averaged 20.6 points and 14.1 boards for the series, though he didn't dominate against the Pistons' imposing front line of Ben and Rasheed Wallace. But he took over when needed.
That was especially true in Game 7, when he put the Spurs on his back in the second half to lead them to the title. Duncan finished with 25 points, 11 rebounds and three assists, including a cross-court find of Manu Ginobili for a game-icing 3-pointer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
46. LATRELL SPREWELL, NEW YORK, 1999
San Antonio 4 New York 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 26.0
Boards per game: 6.6
Assists per game: 2.6
PER: 23.3
The Knicks lost in five games and set records for offensive ineptitude, but Sprewell was one of the few bright spots.
He averaged 26.0 points and 6.6 rebounds a game for the series, including 24 in the Knicks' lone win, and scored 14 straight Knicks points in the second half of Game 5 before New York ultimately fell short.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
47. JULIUS ERVING, PHILADELPHIA, 1980
Los Angeles 4 Philadelphia 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 25.5
Boards per game: 7.0
Assists per game: 5.0
PER: 21.4
This one was all about The Swoop -- Erving's unbelievable reverse layup where he seemed to stay in midair for about 15 seconds while navigating around Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Mark Landsberger to the far side of the backboard.
That play was a key one in Philadelphia's Game 4 victory that tied the series at two games apiece, though the Sixers ultimately faltered in six. But don't blame Doc -- he was solid throughout with 25.5 points per game on 52.2 percent shooting, and had a good argument for series MVP.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
48. BEN WALLACE, DETROIT, 2004
Detroit 4 Los Angeles 1

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 10.8
Boards per game: 13.6
Blocks per game: 1.0
PER: 16.5
The Pistons were arguably the single best defensive team of the past 30 years, and Wallace was the linchpin.
The four-time NBA Defensive Player of the Year was at his apex with the "play the right way" Pistons of 2004, helping Detroit slam the door on the Lakers' offense in a shocking five-game rout. Wallace dominated the glass with 13.6 boards per game, and was feeling chipper enough to contribute 10.8 a game on the offensive end. Had he not shot 10-of-34 from the line for the series, his ranking would be even higher.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
49. CEDRIC MAXWELL, BOSTON, 1981
Boston 4 Houston 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 17.7
Boards per game: 9.5
Assists per game: 2.8
PER: 20.4
The Celtics had Bird, Parish and McHale, but in the big three's first Finals it was Maxwell who stole the show.
With Bird struggling to score against Houston's Robert Reid, Maxwell blew up for 17.7 points per game on 56.8 percent shooting. Cornbread led the team in points and free throws and yanked down 34 offensive boards in the six games to take MVP honors.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
50. HAKEEM OLAJUWON, HOUSTON, 1986
Boston 4 Houston 2

FINALS STATS
Points per game: 24.7
Boards per game: 11.8
Blocks per game: 3.17
PER: 21.2
Although Houston fell short, Olajuwon was fabulous, becoming the only player since the merger to average better than two blocks and two steals in the Finals.
He had 33 and 12 in a losing effort in the opener, and went off for 32 points, 14 rebounds and 8 assists to help Houston stave off elimination in Game 5 after frontcourt cohort Ralph Sampson was ejected. Even in the blowout loss in Game 6, his three straight steals for breakaway dunks in the first half left the Boston crowd in awe.

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 05:48 PM
Hey All,
I'm going to try to do a summation post of my preceding posts re:
ESPN's Hollinger's Top 50 Finals Performances.

This will probably include:
1. A simplified 1-50 list (so everyone can see who is on the list and how they are ranked, one-by-one;
2) Subtotals for each Performer;
3) Any cases where, for the same Finals, more than one performer is listed (this affects our OP analysis of possible "One-Man Wrecking-Crew" Finals Performers).
4) List members from the Losing Team.

Hope you all find the information useful.

Pablonovi
08-13-2013, 05:50 PM
you keep bumping this, ima report you

Hey "el hidalgo",
You're joking, right?
I mean, I am the OP-author; and this IS completely relevant to the discussion.
The only reasons I took so long are:
1) I was hoping someone else with more experience might be able to post this info quicker and better;
but seeing as that didn't happen;
2) I finally posted it myself.

Hopefully you are joking.

SportsFanatic10
08-13-2013, 11:27 PM
you keep bumping this, ima report you

lol

amos1er
08-14-2013, 12:02 AM
Wade should not be on that list due to the amount of assistance he had from the refs in setting a record for finals free throw attempts. Or at the very least an asterisk giving a shout out to Bennett Salvatore for the assist.

SportsFanatic10
08-14-2013, 12:09 AM
Wade should not be on that list due to the amount of assistance he had from the refs in setting a record for finals free throw attempts. Or at the very least an asterisk giving a shout out to Bennett Salvatore for the assist.

:bla::dance:

Pablonovi
08-14-2013, 03:50 AM
"PRE-ANNOUNCEMENT"
I am just so excited. I just spent the last 10 hours work on Hollinger's List:
1) Transferring its raw data to an Excel Document;
2) Processing that Excel Document to an organized presentation of Hollinger's data; and
3) Re-processing that Excel Document so that it "corresponds" to our OP.

I believe we can have a really excellent discussion about the OP Question now:
"Who Were The Greatest One-Man Finals Wrecking-Crew Guys".

What I Am Not Going To Do:
Make any final decisions about new/updated OP Rankings for the OP Question:


What I Am Going To Do:
Present a new/updated DRAFT of the OP Rankings in two parts:
A) Pre-1977 (about 17 years = 1960-1976) * = 6 Candidates ** (from my/our OP, we need about 4 more!); and
B) 1977-2013 (37 years) = 20 Candidates (based on my re-working of Hollinger);
PLUS
C) 1977-2013 = 20 or so possible Honorable Mentions (11 Hollinger's remainders + 9 my/our OP remainders).

* I'm not including the 1950s because that was pre-integration so the quality of play was decidedly inferior to all subsequent decades. The only Great Player this greatly negatively affects is George Mikan. But, then again, probably NONE of us actually got to see him play (due to not being old enough and/or so little of NBA Finals being televised back then.) So it is not really much of a loss to not include him and/or that period.

So, my next 2 posts:
1st Post: An Overview of Hollinger's List presented:
CHRONOLOGICALLY by Year: (he has candidates from 31 of the 37 years (1977-2013);
PLAYER-NAME: (he has 27 players (occupying his Top 50 Performances);
RANKING: (using his own Ranking System).

In my 2nd post, I will take his Ranking System and adjust it for the following two facts:
1) For 15 Years he has only one Player Ranked in his Top 50 - so I will list these first (according to his ranking-system);
2) For 13 other Years he has two Players Ranked in his Top 50 - so I will list these second (according to his ranking-system); and
3) For 3 other Years he has three Players Ranked in his Top 50 - so I will list these last (according to his ranking-system).

Why am I "re-organizing" his list? Because in years where he has more than one player listed, the second (and third where applicable) player "competes" with the top-ranked guy, thus reducing his chances of being a "One-Man Finals Wrecking-Crew" guy.

So my 2nd Post will include: A) "Serious Candidates" and B) "Long-Shot Candidates"
26 "Serious Candidates" (6 from 1960-1976; 20 from 1977-2013);
A call out to all of you to suggest 4 or so more "Serious Candidates" from 1960-1976;
20 or so "Long-Shot Candidates (from Hollinger and from my/our OP).

YOUR "TASK":
A) Suggest (4 or so) possible "missing" candidates from 1960-1976;
B) "Fire Away" with your opinions and suggestions about the entire list.

Let's Have Some Fun !

BUT, first, I've got to get some sleep. So please bear with me. I'll get to it right after I wake up.

Pablonovi
08-14-2013, 06:56 AM
Hollinger's "50 Greatest Finals Performances": Different Presentations Of His List

N.B. Each Player listed below is Hollinger-Ranked #1 AND on the Winning-Team unless:
after the Year is listed, the following appears: Rank: #1, #2 or #3 AND/OR (Finals-Loser)

Presentation A: His Rankings [Player, Team, Year]:
1. Wade, Dwyane Miami 2006
2. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1998
3. Duncan, Tim San Antonio 2003
4. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1997
5. Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 1994
6. Johnson, Magic L.A. Lakers 1987
7. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1991
8. O'Neal, Shaquille L.A. Lakers 2000
9. O'Neal, Shaquille L.A. Lakers 2002
10. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1992
11. Duncan, Tim San Antonio 1999
12. Johnson, Magic L.A. Lakers 1988
13. O'Neal, Shaquille L.A. Lakers 2001
14. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1993
15. Bryant, Kobe L.A. Lakers 2009
16. Thomas, Isiah Detroit 1990
17. Billups, Chauncey Detroit 2004
18. Malone, Karl Utah 1998 #2, (Finals-Loser)
19. Malone, Moses Philadelphia 1983
20. Wade, Dwyane Miami 2011 #1, (Finals-Loser)
21. Kemp, Shawn OKC (Seattle) 1996 #1, (Finals-Loser)
22. Walton, Bill Portland 1977
23. Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem L.A. Lakers 1980
24. Bryant, Kobe L.A. Lakers 2010
25. Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem L.A. Lakers 1985
26. Gasol, Pau L.A. Lakers 2010 #2
27. Bird, Larry Boston 1984
28. Drexler, Clyde Portland 1990 #2, (Finals-Loser)
29. O'Neal, Shaquille L.A. Lakers 2004 #2, (Finals-Loser)
30. Jordan, Michael Chicago 1996 #2
31. Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 1995
32. Johnson, Magic L.A. Lakers 1980 #2
33. Nowitzki, Dirk Dallas 2011 #2
34. Bird, Larry Boston 1986
35. Erving, Julius Philadelphia 1977 #2, (Finals-Loser)
36. Thomas, Isiah Detroit 1988 #2 (Finals-Loser)
37. Robinson, David San Antonio 1999 #2
38. Billups, Chauncey Detroit 1989 #1 (Finals-Loser)
39. Parker, Tony San Antonio 2007
40. Dumars, Joe Detroit 1989
41. Duncan, Tim San Antonio 2007 #2
42. Malone, Moses Houston 1981 #1 (Finals-Loser)
43. Barkley, Charles Phoenix 1993 #2 (Finals-Loser)
44. Pippen, Scottie Chicago 1992 #2
45. Duncan, Tim San Antonio 2005 #2
46. Sprewell, Latrell N. Y. Knicks 1999 #3 (Finals-Loser)
47. Erving, Julius Philadelphia 1980 #3 (Finals-Loser)
48. Wallace, Ben Detroit 2004 #3
49. Maxwell, Cedric Boston 1981 #2
50. Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 1986 #2 (Finals-Loser)

Please notice about the above and/or the next Presentations that there are:
27 Players from 31 of the 37 Years; and
00 Players from 6 Years (1978, 1979, 1982, 2008, 2012, 2013).

15 Years with 1 Player Only (all = best player on Finals-Winning Team) ST 15
13 Years with 2 Players each ST 26
3 Years with 3 Players each (1980, 1999, 2004) ST 9 .... 15+26+9=50.

37 Players from Finals-Winning Teams
13 Players from Finals-Losing Teams ... 37+13=50.

4 Years with the #1 Player from the Finals-Losing Team (1981, 1996, 2005, 2011); and
27 Years with the #1 Player from the Finals-Winning Team ... 4+27=31 Years.

Presentation B: CHRONOLOGICAL:
1977: Walton, Erving
1978: x
1979: x
1980 Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson (Magic), Erving
1981 Malone (Moses), Maxwell
1982: x
1983: Malone (Moses)
1984: Bird
1985: Abdul-Jabbar
1986: Bird, Olajuwon
1987: Johnson (Magic)
1988: Johnson (Magic), Thomas
1989: Dumars
1990: Thomas, Drexler
1991: Jordan
1992: Jordan, Pippen
1993: Jordan, Barkley
1994: Olajuwon
1995: Olajuwon
1996: Kemp, Jordan
1997: Jordan
1998: Jordan, Malone (Karl)
1999: Duncan, Robinson, Sprewell
2000: O'Neal (Shaq)
2001: O'Neal (Shaq)
2002: O'Neal (Shaq)
2003: Duncan
2004: Billups, O'Neal (Shaq), Wallace (Ben)
2005: Billups, Duncan
2006: Wade
2007: Parker, Duncan
2008: x
2009: Bryant
2010: Bryant, Gasol
2011: Wade, Nowitski
2012: x
2013: x

Presentation C: ALPHABETICAL (with each Player's Years in Rank Order)
1. Abdul-Jabbar x2: 1980, 1985
2. Barkley x1 1993
3. Billups x2 2004, 2005
4. Bird x2 1984, 1986
5. Bryant x2 2009, 2010
6. Drexler x1 1990
7. Dumars x1 1989
8. Duncan x4 2003, 1999, 2007, 2005
9. Erving x2 1977, 1980
10. Gasol x1 2010
11. Johnson (Magic) x3 1987, 1988, 1980
12. Jordan x6 1998, 1997, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996
13. Kemp x1 1996
14. Malone (Karl) x1 1998
15. Malone (Moses) x2 1983, 1981
16. Maxwell x1 1981
17. Nowitzki x1 2011
18. Olajuwon x3 1994, 1995, 1986
19. O'Neal (Shaq) x4 2000, 2002, 2001, 2004
20. Parker x1 2007
21. Pippen x1 1992
22. Robinson x1 1999
23. Sprewell x1 1999
24. Thomas x2 1990, 1988
25. Wade x2 2006, 2011
26. Wallace x1 2004
27. Walton x1 1977

Presentation D: TEAMS:
1. Boston x3 1984, 1986, 1981
2. Chicago x7 1998, 1997, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1992
3. Dallas x1 2011
4. Detroit x6 1990, 2004, 1988, 2005, 1989, 2004
5. Houston x 4 1994, 1995, 1981, 1986
6. L.A. Lakers x12 1987, 2000, 2002, 1988, 2001, 2009, 1980, 2010, 1985, 2010, 2004, 1980
7. Miami x2 2006, 2011
8. N.Y. Knicks x1 1999
9. OKC (Seattle) x1 1996
10. Philadelphia x 3 1983, 1977, 1980
11. Phoenix x1 1993
12. Portland x2 1977, 1990
13. San Antonio x6 2003, 1999, 1999, 2007, 2007, 2005
14. Utah x1 1998. 3+7+1+6+4+12+2+1+1+3+1+2+6+1=50

Pablonovi
08-14-2013, 08:17 AM
N.B. A lot of the stuff in this post is copied from the OP post. The stuff that is new for this post is almost exclusively presented here in the form of a chart titled, "THE NEXT 20 ARE PROBABLE CANDIDATES"/

Pablonovi:
Who Were The Greatest One-Man Finals-Series Wrecking-Crew Guys

[SNIP]

1 Russel 1965 Celtics (his best Finals year?; more pros/cons please' but Sam Jones his "1b"?)
2 Wilt 1967 76ers (VERY STRONG; more pros/cons please)
3 Greer 196_ 76ers (missing: his best year?; Wilt & other teammates AND vs opponent's best)
4 West 1969 * (VERY STRONG; was fMVP despite being on the Finals-Losers)
5 KAJ 1971 Bucks (VERY STRONG; more pros/cons please)
6 Barry 1975 Warriors (VERY STRONG)
7 ____________
8 ____________
9 ____________
10 ____________

PLEASE MAKE SUGGESTIONS ABOUT THE FIRST 6 AND HELP ADD 4 MORE FOR THE PERIOD 1960-1976.

THE NEXT 20 ARE PROBABLE CANDIDATES (originally from Hollinger's "Top 50 Finals Performers"; but re-arranged to better reflect "One-Man Finals Wrecking-Crew Guys")
a=#1; b=#2; c=#3
DRAFT New Ranking; NAME & Times TEAM YEAR; Times/Yr PER & PER GAP
a 1 Wade, Dwyane 1 Miami 2006 1 33.8 X
a 2 Duncan, Tim 1 San An 2003 1 32.0 X
a 3 Jordan, Michael 1 Chicago 1997 1 29.5 X
a 4 Olajuwon, Hakeem 1 Houston 1994 1 27.1 X
a 5 Johnson, Magic 1 L.A.Laker 1987 1 28.2 X
a 6 Jordan, Michael 2 Chicago 1991 1 31.5 X
a 7 O'Neal, Shaquille 1 L.A.Laker 2000 1 31.1 X
a 8 O'Neal, Shaquille 2 L.A.Laker 2002 1 31.4 X
a 9 O'Neal, Shaquille 3 L.A.Laker 2001 1 29.4 X
a 10 Bryant, Kobe 1 L.A.Laker 2009 1 28.3 X
a 11 Malone, Moses 1 Philadel 1983 1 26.0 X
a 12 Abdul-Jabbar, Kar. 1 L.A.Laker 1985 1 23.8 X
a 13 Bird, Larry 1 Boston 1984 1 23.0 X
a 14 Olajuwon, Hakeem 2 Houston 1995 1 22.2 X
a 15 Dumars, Joe 1 Detroit 1989 1 26.0 X
a 16 Wade, Dwyane 2 Miami 2011 1 30.2 1of2
b 16 Nowitzki, Dirk 1 Dallas 2011 2 20.1 10.1
a 17 Jordan, Michael 3 Chicago 1992 1 29.2 1of2
b 17 Pippen, Scottie 1 Chicago 1992 2 21.5 7.7
a 18 Johnson, Magic 2 L.A.Laker 1988 1 27.5 1of2
b 18 Thomas, Isiah 1 Detroit 1988 2 20.5 7.0
a 19 Jordan, Michael 4 Chicago 1993 1 27.6 1of2
b 19 Barkley, Charles 1 Phoenix 1993 2 22.5 5.1
a 20 Jordan, Michael 5 Chicago 1998 1 30.8 1of2
b 20 Malone, Karl 1 Utah 1998 2 26.8 4.0

B: "LONG-SHOT CANDIDATES"
a 21 Kemp, Shawn 1 OKC(Sea)1996 1 25.8 1of2
b 21 Jordan, Michael 6 Chicago 1996 2 23.1 2.7
a 22 Malone, Moses 2 Houston 1981 1 22.5 1of2
b 22 Maxwell, Cedric 1 Boston 1981 2 20.4 2.1
a 23 Billups, Chauncey 1 Detroit 2005 1 23.7 1of2
b 23 Duncan, Tim 2 San An 2005 2 21.8 1.9
a 24 Bird, Larry 2 Boston 1986 1 22.4 1of2
b 24 Olajuwon, Hakeem 3 Houston 1986 2 21.2 1.2
a 25 Thomas, Isiah 2 Detroit 1990 1 27.1 1of2
b 25 Drexler, Clyde 1 Portland 1990 2 26.0 1.1
a 26 Bryant, Kobe 2 L.A.Laker 2010 1 26.3 1of2
b 26 Gasol, Pau 1 L.A.Laker 2010 2 25.5 0.8
a 27 Parker, Tony 1 San An 2007 1 26.0 1of2
b 27 Duncan, Tim 3 San Ant 2007 2 25.2 0.8
a 28 Walton, Bill 1 Portland 1977 1 23.3 1of2
b 28 Erving, Julius 1 Philadel 1977 2 24.4 -1.1
a 29 Duncan, Tim 4 San An 1999 1 30.7 1of3
b 29 Robinson, David 1 San An 1999 2 26.3 4.4
c 29 Sprewell, Latrell 1 N.Y. Knic 1999 3 23.3 3.0
a 30 Abdul-Jabbar, Kar. 2 L.A.Laker 1980 1 27.3 1of3
b 30 Johnson, Magic 3 L.A.Laker 1980 2 23.3 4.0
c 30 Erving, Julius 2 Philadel 1980 3 21.4 1.9
a 31 Billups, Chauncey 2 Detroit 2004 1 27.1 1of3
b 31 O'Neal, Shaquille 4 L.A.Laker 2004 2 25.7 1.4
c 31 Wallace, Ben 1 Detroit 2004 3 16.5 9.2

C: "HONORABLE-MENTION CANDIDATES (from my/our OP earlier):
[SNIP]
32 Iverson 2000 76errs (for guts+gunning; MOST CONTROVERSIAL)
33 Kidd 2001 Nets (for his team's clear "fMVP")
34 Kidd 2002 Nets (for his team's clear "fMVP")
35 KG 2008 Celtics (for his team's fMVP (slighted?); few comments so far)
36 LeBron 2013 Heat (strong qualifier?; more pros/cons please; ?WAY better than: Duncan, Parker, Wade?)
- - - - - - - -
[SNIP]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MY 2 CRITERIA: EITHER:
1) The best player (by a wide margin) on the winning team; OR
2) The best player (by a wide margin) on the losing team AND decidedly better than any player on the winning team.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
P.S. On this, page 5 of this thread, I've given a ton of information, hopefully as a relatively good scientific basis (using Holllinger's expert opinions) upon which each of us can more thoroughly analyze each candidate. IF you have any questions about ANY aspect of any of these pg 5 posts; please don't hesitate to ask.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND: I HAVE NOT RE-WORKED THIS NEW LIST IN ANY WAY - i.e., it does NOT reflect my own personal opinions vis-à-vis any would-be final OP Rankings. I feel it is better to just present Hollinger's (Adjusted to better reflect our OP) Rankings and let everyone start opinionating from there. From here on in, I will, as well, start giving my own opinions either in response to you-all's posts or in separate posts.

I hope you-all enjoy the f_ck out of the coming discussion; I bet I will too.
Pablo