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View Full Version : Is it necessary to be good on offense AND defense to b among the best players in NBA?



sunsfan88
07-20-2013, 05:27 PM
I only ask this cause when we look at guys like LeBron, Durant, CP3, Howard, Kobe, Kidd, Garnett, Pierce, Duncan, Wade in their primes they played good on both ends of the court. Sure, they all dominated offensively but defensively, they were pretty damn good on defense also. For Howard, its dominating defensively and then playing pretty good or decently on offense.

So then there are those players who dominate offensively and don't do anything on the other end of the court: Dirk, Nash, Harden, Carmelo, Allen among others.

Then there those who dominate defensively but don't do anything on offense: Wallace, Mutombo, Bowen among others

My question is this, can you still be among the best players in the NBA even if you only play well on one end of the court and then play like absolute crap on the other end?

Comparing strictly based on them when they were in their prime, is Dirk, Nash, Harden, Carmelo, Allen, Wallace, Mutombo, and Bowen in the same class and tier of players such as LeBron, Durant, CP3, Howard, Kobe, Kidd, Garnett, Pierce, Duncan, Wade?

Also, my apologies if I left out players above, I only mean to use that as a brief example.

Goose17
07-20-2013, 05:29 PM
My question is this, can you still be among the best players in the NBA even if you only play well on one end of the court and then play like absolute crap on the other end?


Yes.

abe_froman
07-20-2013, 05:32 PM
yes you can be among the best and suck on d.see: steve nash,amare(in his prime),melo,ect.

on defense,it harder to be considered among the best as the game is so tilted towards favoring offense,i dont think any defensive monster/limited on offense player has been seen as a top 15 player since russell

so it only works with good offensive players

TrueFan420
07-20-2013, 05:33 PM
In some cases yes. Bowen was nothing more than a role player tho. However, how he never won defensive MVP is beyond me.

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 05:37 PM
In my opinion, No. I like well balanced players. Personal accolades are great but if you want to be the best you need to achieve at a high level on both ends.

TrueFan420
07-20-2013, 05:40 PM
In my opinion, No. I like well balanced players. Personal accolades are great but if you want to be the best you need to achieve at a high level on both ends.

For the most part I agree but I think dirk was different.

More-Than-Most
07-20-2013, 05:41 PM
Depends. You cant be a top elite player but you can still be a very good player. Someone like Nash is the perfect example but I myself have always thought his defense was underrated. Not great or even good for that matter but not as bad as people made him out to be.

To be one of the best in the sport you need to be good on both sides of the ball. Its literally half the game of basketball.

elledaddy
07-20-2013, 05:53 PM
All I know is ppl keep saying Melo " cant play D" but I have yet to see somebody light him up. On the other hand, EVERYBODY the OP named for defense would get 40 put on them by Melo with a fair amount of ease. Just sayin.

And to say that Dirk,Melo and Harden " PLAY LIKE CRAP" on the other end is just silly. Playing defense is part skill,part want to and part scheme. KG wasnt known for defense until he went to a Thibbs scheme, same goes for Pierce. The OP said CP3 can play defense, FOH. I have friends that are Spurs and Bulls fans and I hear EVERY TIME Tony Parker and D Rose lite CP3 *** up. Getting steals dont equal being able to play D. Getting chase down Blocks dont equal to being able to play D. I applaud Paul George cuz he D'd Melo up. I applaud KD cuz he atleast tried this yr to D Melo. But the Lebron guy stays as far away as he can when it comes to Melo. Just saying.......

Theres my 1 defending the knicks rant for the year

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 05:56 PM
All I know is ppl keep saying Melo " cant play D" but I have yet to see somebody light him up. On the other hand, EVERYBODY the OP named for defense would get 40 put on them by Melo with a fair amount of ease. Just sayin.

And to say that Dirk,Melo and Harden " PLAY LIKE CRAP" on the other end is just silly. Playing defense is part skill,part want to and part scheme. KG wasnt known for defense until he went to a Thibbs scheme, same goes for Pierce. The OP said CP3 can play defense, FOH. I have friends that are Spurs and Bulls fans and I hear EVERY TIME Tony Parker and D Rose lite CP3 *** up. Getting steals dont equal being able to play D. Getting chase down Blocks dont equal to being able to play D. I applaud Paul George cuz he D'd Melo up. I applaud KD cuz he atleast tried this yr to D Melo. But the Lebron guy stays as far away as he can when it comes to Melo. Just saying.......

Theres my 1 defending the knicks rant for the year

Melo could score 40 in the regular season, but if it was the playoffs........

More-Than-Most
07-20-2013, 05:56 PM
All I know is ppl keep saying Melo " cant play D" but I have yet to see somebody light him up. On the other hand, EVERYBODY the OP named for defense would get 40 put on them by Melo with a fair amount of ease. Just sayin.

And to say that Dirk,Melo and Harden " PLAY LIKE CRAP" on the other end is just silly. Playing defense is part skill,part want to and part scheme. KG wasnt known for defense until he went to a Thibbs scheme, same goes for Pierce. The OP said CP3 can play defense, FOH. I have friends that are Spurs and Bulls fans and I hear EVERY TIME Tony Parker and D Rose lite CP3 *** up. Getting steals dont equal being able to play D. Getting chase down Blocks dont equal to being able to play D. I applaud Paul George cuz he D'd Melo up. I applaud KD cuz he atleast tried this yr to D Melo. But the Lebron guy stays as far away as he can when it comes to Melo. Just saying.......

Theres my 1 defending the knicks rant for the year

I could be wrong but Melo has shown he can play D but he is lazy and 90 percent of the time plays like crap on that end. If he would just put in the effort and time like say a Durant/James I think he could become a much better all around player.

Kobe over the past several seasons has become pretty lazy on D as well... But he is um older so that is expected. Melo seems content with just being the player he is and that is why he has never been and will never be top five in a season

Guppyfighter
07-20-2013, 05:59 PM
The reason Melo is bad at defense is because you get tired from creating shots. It takes a lot of effort. I bet he's gassed and just goes "**** it."

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 06:09 PM
The reason Melo is bad at defense is because you get tired from creating shots. It takes a lot of effort. I bet he's gassed and just goes "**** it."

Yeah that is the spirit!

Bostonjorge
07-20-2013, 06:17 PM
Durant has never been an elite defender.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 06:19 PM
you had better be legendary on one end if you suck on the other to be considered an elite player.

Btw, Durant is above average on defense, and as elite of a scorer as you get, hence why he is the 2nd best player in the game. LeBron is elite at almost every aspect of the game, hence him being the best.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 06:19 PM
Yes, you can still be one of the game's best even if you can't play defense, but that mainly applies to guards. Big men can't be great without playing great defense...it's just way too important to a team.

Guys like Kobe, Westbrook, Harden and Rose have all rated out as bad defenders during parts of recent years and were all universally considered top 10 players despite that.

Baller1
07-20-2013, 06:21 PM
Durant has never been an elite defender.

He's also an offensive legend already, and a solid defender regardless.

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 06:21 PM
Durant has never been an elite defender.

And that is why Durant should never be called an Elite basketball player. He is an elite offensive player.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 06:21 PM
Yes, you can still be one of the game's best even if you can't play defense, but that mainly applies to guards. Big men can't be great without playing great defense...it's just way too important to a team.

Guys like Kobe, Westbrook, Harden and Rose have all rated out as bad defenders during parts of recent years and were all universally considered top 10 players despite that.

agree. However, there is a difference in any given year obviously, but there are tiers even in the top 10. In 2011-12, Kevin Love was a top 10 player, but the difference between him, and LeBron for example, was huge.

carlthack
07-20-2013, 06:22 PM
It absolutely is necessary, offense is only one side of the basketball court, its only half the game. Defense should never be over looked because it requires athleticism and skill too.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 06:37 PM
And that is why Durant should never be called an Elite basketball player. He is an elite offensive player.


All-time great offensive play + good-enough defense = elite basketball player.

Durant isn't LeBron defensively, but he's not below average, nor is he close. He's at the very worst an average defender, and pair that with historically great offense and he's easily a "great" basketball player.

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 07:02 PM
All-time great offensive play + good-enough defense = elite basketball player.

Durant isn't LeBron defensively, but he's not below average, nor is he close. He's at the very worst an average defender, and pair that with historically great offense and he's easily a "great" basketball player.

He is a below average defender IMO.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 07:05 PM
He is a below average defender IMO.

by what measure? By no means is Durant elite on defense, but he is well above average, and his offense is ridiculous good. Hence why he is elite.

Matrix3132
07-20-2013, 07:06 PM
All I know is ppl keep saying Melo " cant play D" but I have yet to see somebody light him up. On the other hand, EVERYBODY the OP named for defense would get 40 put on them by Melo with a fair amount of ease. Just sayin.

And to say that Dirk,Melo and Harden " PLAY LIKE CRAP" on the other end is just silly. Playing defense is part skill,part want to and part scheme. KG wasnt known for defense until he went to a Thibbs scheme, same goes for Pierce. The OP said CP3 can play defense, FOH. I have friends that are Spurs and Bulls fans and I hear EVERY TIME Tony Parker and D Rose lite CP3 *** up. Getting steals dont equal being able to play D. Getting chase down Blocks dont equal to being able to play D. I applaud Paul George cuz he D'd Melo up. I applaud KD cuz he atleast tried this yr to D Melo. But the Lebron guy stays as far away as he can when it comes to Melo. Just saying.......

Theres my 1 defending the knicks rant for the year

That's because he rarely guards anyone who could light him up, Woodson hides him

ManRam
07-20-2013, 07:07 PM
He is a below average defender IMO.

Elaborate. Because most metrics would suggest the opposite.

bOOyah916
07-20-2013, 07:11 PM
I dont think Nash won two MVPs for his defensive ability

Hellcrooner
07-20-2013, 07:17 PM
yes you can even be consensus top 3 ALL TIME and suck in one end, Ask Magic.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 07:19 PM
I think if we're going the other way it would be guys like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace that could be considered "great" players rather than the wings like Bowen. Their impact on a game night in and night out was almost incomprehensible. Defense matters a lot and being big men they could take over games on that side of the court.

Ben Wallace lead the league in RAPM in 2006, and did so entirely because of his defense. -0.1 offense and +9.2 defense. I think he very well was one "among the best players" in the league that year.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-20-2013, 07:21 PM
All I know is ppl keep saying Melo " cant play D" but I have yet to see somebody light him up. On the other hand, EVERYBODY the OP named for defense would get 40 put on them by Melo with a fair amount of ease. Just sayin.

And to say that Dirk,Melo and Harden " PLAY LIKE CRAP" on the other end is just silly. Playing defense is part skill,part want to and part scheme. KG wasnt known for defense until he went to a Thibbs scheme, same goes for Pierce. The OP said CP3 can play defense, FOH. I have friends that are Spurs and Bulls fans and I hear EVERY TIME Tony Parker and D Rose lite CP3 *** up. Getting steals dont equal being able to play D. Getting chase down Blocks dont equal to being able to play D. I applaud Paul George cuz he D'd Melo up. I applaud KD cuz he atleast tried this yr to D Melo. But the Lebron guy stays as far away as he can when it comes to Melo. Just saying.......

Theres my 1 defending the knicks rant for the year


HAHAHA. Dude had 6 First team all-defensive team awards before joining the Celtcs. This has to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen on PSD to make a point.

Iggz53
07-20-2013, 07:30 PM
Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson

Iggz53
07-20-2013, 07:31 PM
by what measure? By no means is Durant elite on defense, but he is well above average, and his offense is ridiculous good. Hence why he is elite.

Are you seriously responding to the guy who said Kawhi Leonard's defense was "trash"?

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 07:39 PM
Are you seriously responding to the guy who said Kawhi Leonard's defense was "trash"?

Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

Iggz53
07-20-2013, 07:43 PM
Yeah. Leonard is the reason the Spurs lost Game 7 for his trash defense. Right on.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 07:43 PM
HAHAHA. Dude had 6 First team all-defensive team awards before joining the Celtcs. This has to be one of the worst examples I've ever seen on PSD to make a point.

KG was also an elite defender in Minnesota. Not sure how someone could say otherwise.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 07:44 PM
Are you seriously responding to the guy who said Kawhi Leonard's defense was "trash"?

was unaware of that.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 07:44 PM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

He guarded LeBron about as good as anyone could over the span of that series.

"Oh no! The best player in the world went NOVA against Leonard...that must mean Leonard is trash!"

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 07:44 PM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

what individual defender has had success against LeBron?

Answer: none

tredigs
07-20-2013, 07:53 PM
Yes, the two most overt examples in the past decade are Steve Nash and Ben Wallace. They were two of the most impactful players in the game at their peak, and neither were positives on the other end of the floor.

5ass
07-20-2013, 07:54 PM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.
He played him well. Lebron was hitting his jumpshots. He was unguardable.

5ass
07-20-2013, 07:56 PM
Yes, the two most overt examples in the past decade are Steve Nash and Ben Wallace. They were two of the most impactful players in the game at their peak, and neither were positives on the other end of the floor.
Speaking of wallace, do you think he was the best player on the 04 pistons?

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 07:57 PM
Speaking of wallace, do you think he was the best player on the 04 pistons?

I think Billups was.

tredigs
07-20-2013, 08:05 PM
Speaking of wallace, do you think he was the best player on the 04 pistons?

Probably could not have won without either, but that teams dominance was centered around its D, and that D was centered around Wallace. It was one of the greatest defensive seasons of all time IMO. Via RAPM, he rated 4th in the league behind Shaq/Duncan/KG, and WAY ahead of everyone on the defensive side. League leading D-Rating of 87 and leading the league in D Win Shares as well. And just watching him... wow, he was a straight up beast. Billups was a hog, but that D from Big Ben was legendary.

Also Dirk for the purpose of this conversation would get a nod from me. Which is all the more impressive because of what ManRam was talking about earlier with defense from a big being all the more important. He wasn't TERRIBLE on that end, though.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 08:07 PM
I'm not sure Wallace was the "best" player on that team but I do think he was the most important. That team's M.O. was defense, defense, defense.

ChitownBears22
07-20-2013, 08:07 PM
He played him well. Lebron was hitting his jumpshots. He was unguardable.

Easy to hit jumpshots with no hand in your face. KL made a poor decision to play off of LeBron. It bit him in the ***, he played well all series overall, but in the end his trash defense in game 7 cost them, just like I predicted.

5ass
07-20-2013, 08:14 PM
I think Billups was.

I'd go with wallace, but its debatable for sure. What about "the missing piece", sheed? How about rip? Do you think any of these 2 could be considered the best?

5ass
07-20-2013, 08:16 PM
I'm not sure Wallace was the "best" player on that team but I do think he was the most important. That team's M.O. was defense, defense, defense.
You're right. when i said best i meant most impactful.

PhillyFaninLA
07-20-2013, 08:23 PM
You have to be an all around player to be one of the best

5ass
07-20-2013, 08:25 PM
Easy to hit jumpshots with no hand in your face. KL made a poor decision to play off of LeBron. It bit him in the ***, he played well all series overall, but in the end his trash defense in game 7 cost them, just like I predicted.

And if lebron went cold and stopped hitting his jumpshots and the spurs won, people would be talking about him as a potential dpoy next year. Theres only so much you can do to lebron.

tredigs
07-20-2013, 08:31 PM
You have to be an all around player to be one of the best

Do you think Nash in his MVP years was one of the best players? Dirk? Kobe the past half decade?

Jamiecballer
07-20-2013, 08:33 PM
My question is this, can you still be among the best players in the NBA even if you only play well on one end of the court and then play like absolute crap on the other end?

as many many people have already said if you aren't capable on the other end you will never be one of the truly elite players in the league.

i suppose you have to define what it means to be "among the best players in the NBA".

top 20, sure. top 5, never.

seikou8
07-20-2013, 08:47 PM
Yes, you can still be one of the game's best even if you can't play defense, but that mainly applies to guards. Big men can't be great without playing great defense...it's just way too important to a team.

Guys like Kobe, Westbrook, Harden and Rose have all rated out as bad defenders during parts of recent years and were all universally considered top 10 players despite that.

:eyebrow:

ztilzer31
07-20-2013, 08:48 PM
I want defensive players at every postion besides PF. If you're a PF and are an excellent rebounder/scorer I'll let your defense slide... but every other position on the floor demands good defense IMO to be great.

ManRam
07-20-2013, 08:50 PM
I think you can cover up individual weaknesses on defense to make a more offensive-oriented player a huge asset. Defense is HUGELY important, but you can easily work around having a weak defender or two. Again, especially with guards, I think it's OK to cut some slack to some of these stars who aren't quite great defenders. It's not gonna hurt most teams much at all...and the gains made from their offensive ability far supersede anything they do negatively defensively.

So yeah, I think Nash was "among the best players" during his MVP years, despite not playing a lick of defense. Same with Dirk and Kobe who weren't terrible defenders (up until the last few years with Kobe at least).

I guess after all my out-loud thinking I'd again say "no", it isn't necessary. And this is coming from a guy who worships defense like I'm SVG (my idol).

ManRam
07-20-2013, 08:51 PM
:eyebrow:

He was a negative defender in 2011-2012. Last year he was above average, for sure.

I'm a Westbrook stan too. Love the kid almost as much as anyone else. But he didn't rate out too well two years ago.

RiceOnTheRun
07-20-2013, 09:05 PM
I could be wrong but Melo has shown he can play D but he is lazy and 90 percent of the time plays like crap on that end. If he would just put in the effort and time like say a Durant/James I think he could become a much better all around player.

Kobe over the past several seasons has become pretty lazy on D as well... But he is um older so that is expected. Melo seems content with just being the player he is and that is why he has never been and will never be top five in a season

^ this, pretty much


Yes, you can still be one of the game's best even if you can't play defense, but that mainly applies to guards. Big men can't be great without playing great defense...it's just way too important to a team.

Guys like Kobe, Westbrook, Harden and Rose have all rated out as bad defenders during parts of recent years and were all universally considered top 10 players despite that.

I don't think Kobe's a bad defender. He's definitely better than average. Not like a Nash type defender at all.

I think being great at one aspect makes you a great player. Nash is a great player. Melo's a great player. Amare (was) a great player.

Being great at both makes you a legendary player. Jordan was notorious for his defense. Lebron is also well known for his defense. Guys like Shaq, his offense clearly outclasses his defense by a long shot, but he is also by no means a "bad defender" he was actually still above average. Overall, I think being great defensively is more of a given for a big man because they already have the height and strength advantage needed for defense. For example, if Kobe dunks on Shaq, it's a huge deal because Shaq is literally twice Kobe's size. On the contrary, if Shaq dunks on Kobe, it's basically to be expected because he's held to a higher standard because of his size.

seikou8
07-20-2013, 09:14 PM
He was a negative defender in 2011-2012. Last year he was above average, for sure.

I'm a Westbrook stan too. Love the kid almost as much as anyone else. But he didn't rate out too well two years ago.

your right but he is better defender than all those guy mentioned

Bostonjorge
07-20-2013, 11:03 PM
Y is Durant and above average defender? What does he do that makes him better then melo on D? OKC puts Durant on the weakest players and have sefoloaha guard the better players . During the finals Durant was guarding chalmers and chalmers still got his. He is still an elite player cause his offensive game is at an elite level.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 11:09 PM
I'd go with wallace, but its debatable for sure. What about "the missing piece", sheed? How about rip? Do you think any of these 2 could be considered the best?

dude, that team had the perfect combination to stop the Lakers. There was no star, but if we rank the players all time, Billups is the best.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2013, 11:11 PM
Y is Durant and above average defender? What does he do that makes him better then melo on D? OKC puts Durant on the weakest players and have sefoloaha guard the better players . During the finals Durant was guarding chalmers and chalmers still got his. He is still an elite player cause his offensive game is at an elite level.

Was Jordan guarding the best perimeter players nightly? Answer, nope. Does that make him a poor defender? Quite the opposite.

3RDASYSTEM
07-20-2013, 11:26 PM
Of course it does matter on both sides

the best could play the other side of the ball, team d is what counts the most not 1 on 1 because everybody has embarrassed the best defenders but its all about effort and team defense

JORDAN was considered a lockdown defender but it was more of crunchtime defense than actually shutting down a player for entire game, he hardly ever shutdown ZEKE-DREXLER-MILLER-RICHMOND-NIQUE-S.SMITH and others, he just outscored those players for most part also being the better player, JORDAN would have 40 while they would have 18-25pts or so, that's not shutting anybody down

if you are unstoppable on offense then its pretty much a given you will be at worst half of that on defense, im speaking on behalf of the top 20 or so best players to ever play the game

it also depends on how people look at defense

if a player leads the league in blocks does that mean he's elite?

if a player leads the league in steals does that mean he's elite?

but you have to take into account deflections and charges

usually defenders are 1 dimensional, every now and then you find a combo of scorer or rebounder to go along with it but they will be gritty and do the dirty work pretty much everytime, you need both on at least good level to be considered best of the best, offense more so

3RDASYSTEM
07-20-2013, 11:38 PM
And if lebron went cold and stopped hitting his jumpshots and the spurs won, people would be talking about him as a potential dpoy next year. Theres only so much you can do to lebron.

Exactly, when you're as good as BRON or AI or TMAC or JORDAN its pick your poison or get the ball out they hands with quick doubles all game, nothing you can do if you think about it, imagine how the dominant big man felt, even more unstoppable

Kyben36
07-21-2013, 12:17 AM
NO IMO, lots of players who play well and are considered allstars arnt great defenders,

Carmelo
Kevin Love
Chris Bosh
James Hardin ( dont think anyone would call him great )
Lamarcus Aldridge ( OK, not great)
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobli
zack randolph
dirk
blake Griffin
demarcus cousins
stephen curry
Kevin durrant ( not IMO a great defensive player )

SportsFanatic10
07-21-2013, 12:30 AM
you can be one of the best players in the nba one sided, but it pretty much needs to be on the offensive side example melo. top defenders as skilled as they are almost never get considered elite if they have no offense. but to truly be elite like top 5 in the league, you have to have a solid all around game.

I Rock Shaqs
07-21-2013, 12:51 AM
Well to me basketball isn't just Offense and Defense. Rebounding is just as important so players like Melo, Love, David Lee, Al Jefferson are considered great players even know they all suck defensively maybe minus Melo but since they all rebound at a high rate it's not as a big deal.

RiceOnTheRun
07-21-2013, 02:21 AM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

Boo hoo, Lebron played well against him.

Guess the rest of the league sucks at defense too huh?

SportsFanatic10
07-21-2013, 03:31 AM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

if anyone is to blame it's pop. it was his game plan to force the heat stars to shoot from the outside. and it worked well enough to force a game 7 and nearly won it for them in 6, but the shots are gonna fall eventually especially at home and lebron got it going and found his confidence in the knick of time. leonard played solid d all series.

3RDASYSTEM
07-21-2013, 11:52 AM
Speaking of wallace, do you think he was the best player on the 04 pistons?

I think he was the most important piece(RASHEED helped a lot,imagine a young Portland SHEED with that core), BIG BEN was like 4x DPOY or something like that but couldn't do anything on other side so he was not a top player, he was a top or near it defender on interior

I think the best on that squad was the combo backcourt of BILLUPS-RIP, both could drop 20 a piece and hit big shots and played they part in team d scheme, had they drafted MELO they would have went to many more ECF and possible FINALS app.

sunsfan88
07-23-2013, 06:34 PM
Leonard cost the Spurs the title in game 7. Did you see how he guarded lebron.

That's cause Popvich told him to guard him LBJ like that. Only way SAS could have beat Miami was through limiting LeBron from driving to the rim and making him shoot hoping he misses.

lamzoka
07-23-2013, 06:50 PM
Kobe is a "great defender" is the biggest myth in NBA history.

sunsfan88
02-19-2014, 04:58 PM
I guess Kevin Love can be another guy who is considered a superstar but only plays on one end of the court...though in his defense, he does rebound well.



Guys like Kobe, Westbrook, Harden and Rose have all rated out as bad defenders during parts of recent years and were all universally considered top 10 players despite that.

Westbrook has rated out as a bad defender?

Interesting.

ManRam
02-19-2014, 05:01 PM
Kobe is a "great defender" is the biggest myth in NBA history.

The Derek Jeter of basketball. He had great years, but the hype outlived the actuality of the matter.


Westbrook has rated out as a bad defender?

Interesting.

I was scrolling through this thread and saw that. Not sure what I was looking at at the time. Because I had the same reaction :laugh:

Also, curious bump....

sunsfan88
02-19-2014, 05:03 PM
The Derek Jeter of basketball. He had great years, but the hype outlived the actuality of the matter.



I was scrolling through this thread and saw that. Not sure what I was looking at at the time. Because I had the same reaction :laugh:

Also, curious bump....

I bumped cause I have been thinking about Love's defense lately and how he is the "hot" star player that everyone and their mom wants now.

ShockerArt
02-19-2014, 05:22 PM
I think Billups was.

Followed by Rasheed Wallace, IMO. 'Sheed could defend bigger post guys which freed up Ben Wallace to wreak havok with his athleticism (shot-blocking, rebounding, jumping passing lanes, help defender, etc).

JasonJohnHorn
02-19-2014, 05:30 PM
Steve Nash's two MVP awards say no.

P&GRealist
02-19-2014, 05:30 PM
Well Steve Nash was MVP for 2 straight yrs and couldn't play a lick of D.

Tells you how overrated the League MVP trophy really is.

Jamiecballer
02-19-2014, 05:42 PM
IMO the answer is yes but there is a caveat. I don't think you can be one of the best players in the game and be ****** on one end unless

a) that end is offence, and

b) you have the good sense to pass the ball instead of trying to make something out of nothing.

for example, i think Tyson Chandler in his prime was one of the most valuable players in the game, and he was almost an afterthought offensively. BUT, he was also quite valuable offensively for the fact that he took and made only high percentage shots and did so at an extraordinary rate, as well as gobbled up offensive rebounds.

D-Leethal
02-19-2014, 05:59 PM
I don't think its a simple yes or no answer.

It depends on the position. Is anyone going to consider a 7 foot C who doesn't play defense elite? I don't think so. Is anyone going to consider a 6' PG who doesn't play defense elite? Certainly. Defense matters more at different positions. For the wings it gets tricky. I think if your a 2-3-4 you need to bring SOMETHING other than your offense to the table. Rebounding, defense, passing ability etc...

Barkley is a HOFer because his offense and his rebounding, certainly NOT his defense. Magic was a horrid defender at the PG spot and pretty much average when he cross matched anywhere else. Bird was brilliant with his positioning but wasn't stopping anyone on defense. Those guys all contributed in many other ways so their defense never really came into question as far as their HOF status.

In short, I think guards, wings and forwards need to be multi dimensional but it doesn't necessarily have to be defense in one of those dimensions. Centers pretty much have to play great defense to be considered HOF/elite IMO.

Da Knicks
02-19-2014, 06:09 PM
I don't think so, you really have to be a freak of nature like Lebron to not get tired. Lebron is not a defender like say a Battier but he tries which is the biggest part on defense. Melo getting hid on defense is a funny one last night he took on Marc Gasol and did better than the overrated Tyson Chandler. People just repeat the same garbage about Melos defense and preach it as gospel. Nash was not a horrible defender just lacked strength. Now players like Amare prime, Dirk, Arenas, Love look lost on defense even when they try.

SeoulBeatz
02-19-2014, 06:17 PM
No, it is not necessary to be a two-way player to be in the top 5 or so any given year.

But to be the best, you have to be great on both sides of the ball.

Yes, I realize Nash and Iverson won MVP, but when Nash won, he wasn't the best player in basketball. Same goes for A.I's MVP year, Shaq was the best player in the league in '01 and IMHO he was the most physically dominant player of all time.

But it is possible to be a top 3-10 player with below stellar defense.

Tony_Starks
02-19-2014, 06:27 PM
You can but you have to be at least capable one end. AI was great, Melo is great, but Ben Wallace was great, Noah is great....

thenaj17
02-20-2014, 06:29 AM
I think you can cover up individual weaknesses on defense to make a more offensive-oriented player a huge asset. Defense is HUGELY important, but you can easily work around having a weak defender or two. Again, especially with guards, I think it's OK to cut some slack to some of these stars who aren't quite great defenders. It's not gonna hurt most teams much at all...and the gains made from their offensive ability far supersede anything they do negatively defensively.

So yeah, I think Nash was "among the best players" during his MVP years, despite not playing a lick of defense. Same with Dirk and Kobe who weren't terrible defenders (up until the last few years with Kobe at least).

I guess after all my out-loud thinking I'd again say "no", it isn't necessary. And this is coming from a guy who worships defense like I'm SVG (my idol).



Kobe was an elite defender until a few years ago