PDA

View Full Version : 6th Annual PSD Player Rankings #2 SG In The NBA? (Volume: VI)



Mile High Champ
07-18-2013, 01:23 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings
1) James Harden
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Manu Ginobili
4) James Harden
5) Joe Johnson
6) Monta Ellis
7) Eric Gordon
8) Paul George
9) Kevin Martin
10) Ray Allen

2011 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5) Monta Ellis
6) Kevin Martin
7) Ray Allen
8) Eric Gordon
9) Jason Terry
10) James Harden

2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
07-18-2013, 01:25 AM
Mods please sticky.

Dade County
07-18-2013, 01:56 AM
Wade!

Chacarron
07-18-2013, 02:24 AM
Colby "Free as a Seagull" "B.B. Gun" "She says no should I stop?" Bryant.

SugeKnight
07-18-2013, 02:25 AM
Kobe

Guppyfighter
07-18-2013, 02:31 AM
Kobe was better offensively, same efficiency, but Kobe had more points. Dwade was far super on defense.

I abstain.

tyler55
07-18-2013, 03:51 AM
Kobe without a doubt.

kArSoN RyDaH
07-18-2013, 04:07 AM
Kobe.

Greet
07-18-2013, 04:24 AM
Prior to looking at any stats, I was leaning towards voting for Kobe. I know he had a great season, and I think Hawkeye put up great arguments for him in the last thread.

After looking at stats, it was clear to me that Dwyane Wade is the correct choice here.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2s91u6d.png

DWade had a higher PER, eFG%, WS/48. They had basically identical TS%.

I didn't want to use that as my only statistics, so I then decided to look at the RAPM stats.

Wade: +3.4 offensive, +1.1 defensive, +4.5 overall
Kobe: +4.4 offensive, -1.2 defensive, 3.2 overall

If it holds any value, if I used just RAPM, the rankings for SGs would be:
Harden
Wade
Ginobilli
Carter
Kobe

So I don't think it's right to just use RAPM, being said PSK has told me plenty of times that they are really good for defense.

NBA-GMaster
07-18-2013, 05:20 AM
The flash d' wade!!

sixers247
07-18-2013, 09:23 AM
Kobe then wade lets move on to number four

Swashcuff
07-18-2013, 09:43 AM
Prior to looking at any stats, I was leaning towards voting for Kobe. I know he had a great season, and I think Hawkeye put up great arguments for him in the last thread.

After looking at stats, it was clear to me that Dwyane Wade is the correct choice here.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2s91u6d.png

DWade had a higher PER, eFG%, WS/48. They had basically identical TS%.

I didn't want to use that as my only statistics, so I then decided to look at the RAPM stats.

Wade: +3.4 offensive, +1.1 defensive, +4.5 overall
Kobe: +4.4 offensive, -1.2 defensive, 3.2 overall

If it holds any value, if I used just RAPM, the rankings for SGs would be:
Harden
Wade
Ginobilli
Carter
Kobe

So I don't think it's right to just use RAPM, being said PSK has told me plenty of times that they are really good for defense.

Right there that's your problem you threw context out the window looked solely at the advanced numbers and came to an inaccurate conclusion. You've been doing that throughout all these threads.

Do you think there is any possibility that Wade benefitted from playing with LeBron James for the entire season? Do you think Kobe was hurt by playing with a broken down lakers team having to go through a coaching change a change in system all while doing every single thing that could be asked of him for the betterment of a severely injured/underperforming team.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 09:59 AM
K0be easily/then wade/Jr

Hawkeye15
07-18-2013, 10:19 AM
Kobe for sure here.

Chronz
07-18-2013, 10:39 AM
Same stance as last time, Kobe WAS the best SG, he did not have the best RS and was unable to prove his worth in the playoffs. Neither did Wade really. Wade and Kobe have comparable numbers, one is more efficient the other more durable.

Not really sure who to choose, Ill take Wade just because hes not currently crippled and might have an easier time returning to form.

JLynn943
07-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Should have been Wade at number 1 in my opinion, so I'm voting for him here again.

WadeKobe
07-18-2013, 11:17 AM
Lol. Even if people want to argue Kobe had a better season, Wade has been the better player for years now. This shouldn't e a question.

Swashcuff
07-18-2013, 11:21 AM
Lol. Even if people want to argue Kobe had a better season, Wade has been the better player for years now. This shouldn't e a question.

Well in case you don't understand that's kinda what this thread is about.

aTinyPanda
07-18-2013, 11:24 AM
Like one guy said in the #1 thread.. it's pretty much 1A, 1B, and 1C for Kobe, Harden, and Wade. I'm going Kobe for 1B.

Green_Monster
07-18-2013, 11:51 AM
K0be easily/then wade/Jr

What?

SportsFanatic10
07-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Should have been Wade at number 1 in my opinion, so I'm voting for him here again.

yep. wade's defense was head and shoulders better then kobe and harden last season.

SportsFanatic10
07-18-2013, 12:13 PM
K0be easily/then wade/Jr

you always talk about how melo has no help and how JR is his 2nd option and how bad he is, but now you have him as the 4th best shooting guard in the league? lol

JLynn943
07-18-2013, 12:17 PM
yep. wade's defense was head and shoulders better then kobe and harden last season.

yeah, and that's pretty much the only thing separating the three.

dolfan720
07-18-2013, 12:24 PM
Ill take Mr. Kobe please

Greet
07-18-2013, 03:52 PM
Right there that's your problem you threw context out the window looked solely at the advanced numbers and came to an inaccurate conclusion. You've been doing that throughout all these threads.

Do you think there is any possibility that Wade benefitted from playing with LeBron James for the entire season? Do you think Kobe was hurt by playing with a broken down lakers team having to go through a coaching change a change in system all while doing every single thing that could be asked of him for the betterment of a severely injured/underperforming team.

Well I didn't post this but a few things that also factored into my decision: The Lakers being as total flop this season.

But I do agree with you that LeBron James would clearly have an effect towards Wade's advanced numbers. But lets not forget that even with the Lakers terrible season, they still happened to have Dwight Howard (Top 5 player in the league, best Center), Pau Gasol (Top 10 PF in the league) and Steve Nash (Future HOFer, 4th all time in assists, voted #7 PG last year in the PSD poll). So if you're going to use Lebron as an argument for DWade having better statistics, then we should really be using Howard, Pau, Nash as an argument questioning why Kobe didn't succeed with some of the top players in the league.

ManRam
07-18-2013, 04:00 PM
Kirby. Wade's advanced numbers might be slightly better, but Kobe's the guy I'd rather have. As a #1 option leading a team in the playoffs I'd take him by a hair. I don't subscribe to the notion that Wade is "done" yet again. It was clear in 2012 that it was indeed injuries that slowed him and I think that explains his playoffs again. But still, Kobe in a #1 role is who I'd rather have right now.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 04:07 PM
yeah, and that's pretty much the only thing separating the three.

Games played + MPG/role/shooting ability also separates the three. Pretty close, but I'd give it to Kobe.

Swashcuff
07-18-2013, 04:08 PM
Well I didn't post this but a few things that also factored into my decision: The Lakers being as total flop this season.

But I do agree with you that LeBron James would clearly have an effect towards Wade's advanced numbers. But lets not forget that even with the Lakers terrible season, they still happened to have Dwight Howard (Top 5 player in the league, best Center), Pau Gasol (Top 10 PF in the league) and Steve Nash (Future HOFer, 4th all time in assists, voted #7 PG last year in the PSD poll). So if you're going to use Lebron as an argument for DWade having better statistics, then we should really be using Howard, Pau, Nash as an argument questioning why Kobe didn't succeed with some of the top players in the league.

And there you go yet again ignoring context.

1. How many games did those 4 players play together during the regular season
2. How healthy were those players when they were on the floor
3. Nash wasn't the same Nash he was in 2012

The Heat were one of the healthiest teams in the NBA while the Lakers were one of the most injury prone. How can you really sit there and say Dwight was a top 5 player when at no time during the entire season he managed to play like one due to injury and being used wrong by his coaching, Pau Gasol is a top 10 PF when he himself never played like one, Nash was a shell of his former self when he did play and they didn't even have a proven system or a half decent coaching philosophy in play, the only constant during last season for the Lakers was Kobe.

Wanna know why I say Kobe was a constant? He had WAY more good/productive games statistical than Wade did (if you want a stats argument), he did more to put his team in a position to stay competitive than Wade did (IMO) despite the fact that he was inferior defensively. Either way Wade's regression on that side of the floor made the argument tougher for him IMO.

On paper Kobe had a good cast but when it came to production on the day he NEEDED to be a one man wrecking crew for the Lakers to compete.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 04:12 PM
Well I didn't post this but a few things that also factored into my decision: The Lakers being as total flop this season.

But I do agree with you that LeBron James would clearly have an effect towards Wade's advanced numbers. But lets not forget that even with the Lakers terrible season, they still happened to have Dwight Howard (Top 5 player in the league, best Center), Pau Gasol (Top 10 PF in the league) and Steve Nash (Future HOFer, 4th all time in assists, voted #7 PG last year in the PSD poll). So if you're going to use Lebron as an argument for DWade having better statistics, then we should really be using Howard, Pau, Nash as an argument questioning why Kobe didn't succeed with some of the top players in the league.

It's definitely a valid argument, but also tough to put too much of that on Kobe. That team was just flat out dysfunctional and the lack of leadership from the top down (Owner to coach(es)) was a mess. I personally can't see Wade turning that tide if he's in Kobe's place there.

Oefarmy2005
07-18-2013, 04:13 PM
I dislike Kobe and the Lakers to put it nicely, but he was the 2nd best SG last year by a large margin. I might even put George before Wade for what each brings to their respective team all around.

Greet
07-18-2013, 04:40 PM
It's definitely a valid argument, but also tough to put too much of that on Kobe. That team was just flat out dysfunctional and the lack of leadership from the top down (Owner to coach(es)) was a mess. I personally can't see Wade turning that tide if he's in Kobe's place there.

Well I don't know if I can agree with that. Wade is obviously better defensively, and he doesn't shoot at the volume Kobe does. He would more than likely get his other teammates involved more than Kobe did. Plus he has the motor to play in D'Antoni's offensive system.

ewmania
07-18-2013, 04:44 PM
kobe, paul george, than wade

Greet
07-18-2013, 04:49 PM
And there you go yet again ignoring context.

1. How many games did those 4 players play together during the regular season
2. How healthy were those players when they were on the floor
3. Nash wasn't the same Nash he was in 2012

I don't think I can answer #1 and #2 because I don't really have the time to look each of these up. But I can agree with the point on Nash.


The Heat were one of the healthiest teams in the NBA while the Lakers were one of the most injury prone. How can you really sit there and say Dwight was a top 5 player when at no time during the entire season he managed to play like one due to injury and being used wrong by his coaching, Pau Gasol is a top 10 PF when he himself never played like one, Nash was a shell of his former self when he did play and they didn't even have a proven system or a half decent coaching philosophy in play, the only constant during last season for the Lakers was Kobe.

Well lets not forget that Wade did put up better statistics, while having a lingering injury most likely all season.


Wanna know why I say Kobe was a constant? He had WAY more good/productive games statistical than Wade did (if you want a stats argument), he did more to put his team in a position to stay competitive than Wade did (IMO) despite the fact that he was inferior defensively. Either way Wade's regression on that side of the floor made the argument tougher for him IMO.

On paper Kobe had a good cast but when it came to production on the day he NEEDED to be a one man wrecking crew for the Lakers to compete.

Well yeah it depends what you consider a productive game. I think it's quite obvious he scored at a higher volume, because he had the mindset that he needed to. But he showed no leadership this year, and the Lakers flopped.

Ezio
07-18-2013, 05:02 PM
Paul George is gonna be on the SG list? I thought he would be on the SF.

mrblisterdundee
07-18-2013, 05:22 PM
Prior to looking at any stats, I was leaning towards voting for Kobe. I know he had a great season, and I think Hawkeye put up great arguments for him in the last thread.

After looking at stats, it was clear to me that Dwyane Wade is the correct choice here.

You're advanced stats don't take into account that Dwyane Wade had a better supporting cast taking the heat off him – pun intended. Kobe Bryant, while he did get to play with Dwight Howard, had to do more for his team and face more defensive pressure. And at age 34, and through his own injuries, he still turned in an elite season.

5ass
07-18-2013, 05:25 PM
Taking Kobe over Wade here. I just cant give it to Wade. 16 ppg on 50% ts in the play offs is what killed his chances. He was the most inconsistent player in the post season.

mrblisterdundee
07-18-2013, 05:28 PM
K0be easily/then wade/Jr

J.R. Smith is closer to Paul George than people think, but I think George's performance in the playoffs makes him the fourth best. Smith, of course, has always been a head case with a lot of talent, a la Zach Randolph. I could see him as the third banana on a contender.

b@llhog24
07-18-2013, 05:57 PM
Bron hinders Wades game. Maybe not when Wade is hobbled but when he's right, their redundancy has been shown statistically for years now.

b@llhog24
07-18-2013, 05:58 PM
Taking Kobe over Wade here. I just cant give it to Wade. 16 ppg on 50% ts in the play offs is what killed his chances. He was the most inconsistent player in the post season.

Kobe didn't play in the postseason.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 06:05 PM
J.R. Smith is closer to Paul George than people think, but I think George's performance in the playoffs makes him the fourth best. Smith, of course, has always been a head case with a lot of talent, a la Zach Randolph. I could see him as the third banana on a contender.
I'd say the difference in their wing defense makes it a lot farther than people think. PG is like Sefalosha or Tony Allen out there, JR Smith is like... JR Smith.


Bron hinders Wades game. Maybe not when Wade is hobbled but when he's right, their redundancy has been shown statistically for years now.

True, but how often is Wade not hobbled by something?

b@llhog24
07-18-2013, 06:20 PM
I'd say the difference in their wing defense makes it a lot farther than people think. PG is like Sefalosha or Tony Allen out there, JR Smith is like... JR Smith.



True, but how often is Wade not hobbled by something?
I was solely addressing that point, Wade being injured is a recurring theme over his career while Kobe for the most part has been a machine. But if we're talkin for this season (with some consideration of how we think they'll be next season) who'd be the least hobbled at that point? My guess would be Wade.

LegendsNvrDie23
07-18-2013, 07:00 PM
Are these rankings for last year or the year coming up?

SportsFanatic10
07-18-2013, 09:44 PM
Bron hinders Wades game. Maybe not when Wade is hobbled but when he's right, their redundancy has been shown statistically for years now.

this is very, very true.

SportsFanatic10
07-18-2013, 09:46 PM
Taking Kobe over Wade here. I just cant give it to Wade. 16 ppg on 50% ts in the play offs is what killed his chances. He was the most inconsistent player in the post season.

he showed up when it mattered most and played through pain the entire time. he actually was the 2nd highest scorer in the finals behind lebron both teams included.

britteep
07-18-2013, 10:37 PM
Kobe for sure here.http://www.camj.info/7j1.jpg

Swashcuff
07-18-2013, 10:41 PM
I don't think I can answer #1 and #2 because I don't really have the time to look each of these up. But I can agree with the point on Nash.

You don't need to do any research dude, the answer is WAY more than any player who's going to feature on this poll. The Lakers were worse hit by the injury bug than the Heat, Rockets, Knicks, Pacers etc

Nash, Pau and Howard were no where near their norm when they were on the floor and to make things worse they were hardly ever on the floor together.


Well lets not forget that Wade did put up better statistics, while having a lingering injury most likely all season.

You realize the discussion we're having right? Why Wade's teammates help his statistics. Of course he put up better stats that's not what we're discussing we're discussing why. In other words putting those numbers into context.


Well yeah it depends what you consider a productive game.

How about we use BBRef's game score? A good game score is said to be 15+ so let's go a little better than good for these 2 superstars let's look at how many games each of these players had with a game score of 20 or greater.

Kobe had a game score of 20 or greater in 39 of his 78 (50%) games last season. In other words statistically speaking every other game Kobe played was a really good game.

Wade had a game score of 20 or greater in 24 of his 69 (34.7) games. In other words you were less likely to get a really good game out of Dwyane Wade than you were from Kobe Bryant. Of course this is just one box score measure but since we're talking stats I wanted to give you a concrete example of Kobe's consistency vs Wade's.

Now we can speak to the fact that Wade played hobbled/injured or whatever, but that is in no way helpful to Wade since if you're injured and can't play up to the level that is expected of you that can't be used as an excuse as to why you're better.


I think it's quite obvious he scored at a higher volume, because he had the mindset that he needed to. But he showed no leadership this year, and the Lakers flopped.

What you mean he had the mindset that he needed to? Of course he needed to look at the way that offense struggled to score when Kobe wasn't doing his thing, Nash wasn't running an ultra efficient offense as he's accustomed to, the team didn't respond well to D'Antoni's system and struggled for offense late in games. Of course he needed to score. Even so he was a better and more efficient passer statistically than Wade last season.

That idea that he showed no leadership is a complete and total fallacy, he was a great leader this past season, I have no idea how you'd come to that conclusion. Because some of his teammates were unresponsive? Kobe is a Kobe he wants to win at all costs either you shape up or ship out. He isn't going to baby anyone.

mngopher35
07-18-2013, 10:54 PM
Kobe

DR_1
07-18-2013, 11:25 PM
Kobe easily.

LoveMeOrHateMe
07-18-2013, 11:26 PM
Harden beat out Kobe lol the hate On PSD is real!

1st team people! Kobe should've been one!

LoveMeOrHateMe
07-18-2013, 11:27 PM
Lol. Even if people want to argue Kobe had a better season, Wade has been the better player for years now. This shouldn't e a question.

Better for years lol only one he had an argument over Kobe was 2009 and 2011 when Kobe was injured

kozelkid
07-18-2013, 11:30 PM
Given that that the two are so close numbers wise, the obvious answer (for me anyway) lies in which player can you better rely on as a number one option.

On one hand, we saw a broken down Wade throughout the playoffs (again!), which plainly shows that if Wade had the same workload as Kobe, that team isn't going far.

I know Lakers were bad, but it certainly wasn't much of the fault of Kobe's. And in the end of the day, context of who can still handle the load of carrying a team on his shoulders makes this choice fairly easy for me.

Mile High Champ
07-18-2013, 11:50 PM
Wow Kobe lovers pull it off again. No way he is better than Wade. Not a chance.

Mile High Champ
07-18-2013, 11:51 PM
I am debating skipping the next poll because it is obvious Wade would indeed win the next poll easily. Agreed?

seikou8
07-18-2013, 11:57 PM
Harden beat out Kobe lol the hate On PSD is real!

1st team people! Kobe should've been one!

because kobe is injured I agree with you for once

Greet
07-19-2013, 12:45 AM
Agree MHC

Matter.
07-19-2013, 12:56 AM
he showed up when it mattered most and played through pain the entire time. he actually was the 2nd highest scorer in the finals behind lebron both teams included.

Your saying that Wade has played through more pain then Kobe has?

5ass
07-19-2013, 01:51 AM
he showed up when it mattered most and played through pain the entire time. he actually was the 2nd highest scorer in the finals behind lebron both teams included.

Showing up "when it mattered" is a result of him not showing up earlier. I won't praise him for that.

ManRam
07-19-2013, 10:13 AM
Yes, skip #3.

Bruno
07-19-2013, 10:28 AM
Wow Kobe lovers pull it off again. No way he is better than Wade. Not a chance.

there plenty of non-Laker votes under Kobes name.

Wades post-season is doing the talking here. Wade posted nine games in the 2013 post-season where he posted a game score under 10.0.

for some perspective on how bad that is, Kobe has totaled nine playoff games with games scores under 10.0 dating back to 2005. You have to combine all of Bryants post-seasons from 2006-2012 to find nine games where he posted that low of game scores. Wade did it in a single post-season.

SportsFanatic10
07-19-2013, 11:32 AM
Your saying that Wade has played through more pain then Kobe has?

yep, but everyone thinks kobe is this great warrior based on rep.

SportsFanatic10
07-19-2013, 11:34 AM
Showing up "when it mattered" is a result of him not showing up earlier. I won't praise him for that.

that's fine, wade has the heart of a champion and injured or not he was gonna deliver when it was all on the line. you can be a hater if you want doesn't change a thing.

Chronz
07-19-2013, 12:25 PM
that's fine, wade has the heart of a champion and injured or not he was gonna deliver when it was all on the line. you can be a hater if you want doesn't change a thing.

Its not hate to contextualize his performance, winning and losing doesn't change poor play. Unless you're the kind of person who thinks 1 person controls a teams ultimate fate.

ChiSox219
07-19-2013, 02:08 PM
Tyreke is better than half the guys on the poll.

Allphakenny1
07-19-2013, 06:55 PM
Really doesn't matter if Tyreke Evans is better than anyone on the poll because he is not a top 10 SG right now. Him, just like many others on this list will not get voted in.