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JordansBulls
07-17-2013, 03:46 PM
What seasons was Carmelo Anthony a top 5 player?

BklynKnicks3
07-17-2013, 03:50 PM
probably every season except like 2. It depends what your rankings are based on if its stats/ability/impact on game/box office. Of the players who are ranked in the top 10 he has had the least help year in year out excpet lebron in cleveland

DanG
07-17-2013, 03:52 PM
Last season was his best season and he wasn't top 5 IMO.

kozelkid
07-17-2013, 03:53 PM
Last season was the only one he even had a case for being top 5.

SportsFanatic10
07-17-2013, 03:54 PM
last year maybe

conway429
07-17-2013, 03:54 PM
never imo (debatable last year, but i dont think so)

bucketss
07-17-2013, 03:59 PM
he was never a top 5 player, its hilarious just thinking about it.

BigBlueCrew
07-17-2013, 04:01 PM
probably every season except like 2. It depends what your rankings are based on if its stats/ability/impact on game/box office. Of the players who are ranked in the top 10 he has had the least help year in year out excpet lebron in cleveland

exactly.....:shrug:

DanG
07-17-2013, 04:02 PM
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

PhillyFaninLA
07-17-2013, 04:05 PM
Lets there was......errrrr.....ummmmm.....and then......hmmmmm....I got no answer

He is a one dimensional player that is great at hitting the last shot after being the reason his team needs to hit the last just because of heartless defense in important situations.

elledaddy
07-17-2013, 04:19 PM
Lets there was......errrrr.....ummmmm.....and then......hmmmmm....I got no answer

He is a one dimensional player that is great at hitting the last shot after being the reason his team needs to hit the last just because of heartless defense in important situations.


When the **** did being able to score become bad? Its not one other scoring champ in the history of basketball that was looked down on because he scores a lot.

bucketss
07-17-2013, 04:24 PM
When the **** did being able to score become bad? Its not one other scoring champ in the history of basketball that was looked down on because he scores a lot.

its not because he scores a lot, thats just all he does, and to top it of he does it inefficiently.

GiantsSwaGG
07-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Never

JerseyPalahniuk
07-17-2013, 04:28 PM
When the **** did being able to score become bad? Its not one other scoring champ in the history of basketball that was looked down on because he scores a lot.

AI was, TMac was at times. Dude was SURROUNDED by 3 point shooters (broke the damn NBA record) and one of the most efficient big men in terms of easy buckets/alley oops/drives in the entire league and he couldn't even get 3 assists per game? hahaha

The very FIRST season he gets just 5 assists per game (which he has every opportunity to since his usage percentages is one if not the highest in the league), then I will hands down call him a top 5 player in the league.

NyMik3
07-17-2013, 04:29 PM
Damn this guy makes a Carmelo Anthony thread once a week

MinnesotaFtw
07-17-2013, 04:34 PM
If I'm building a team right now, there is not too many people I take over Melo. I'd take Lebron, I'd take CP3, And I'd take Durant. But he's my number four that I'd take. I think last year he was top 5.

Delrayhc
07-17-2013, 04:36 PM
Never because every year since his rookie season there have been at the very least 5 players that were or are better than him.

JerseyPalahniuk
07-17-2013, 04:37 PM
If I'm building a team right now, there is not too many people I take over Melo. I'd take Lebron, I'd take CP3, And I'd take Durant. But he's my number four that I'd take. I think last year he was top 5.

If that's the criteria then I'll take Harden, Love, and Howard first then Melo.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 04:38 PM
He hasn't been a top 5 player in any season he has played.

Riodagoat
07-17-2013, 04:38 PM
Never?

Delrayhc
07-17-2013, 04:47 PM
Never?

Never!

valade16
07-17-2013, 04:48 PM
its not because he scores a lot, thats just all he does, and to top it of he does it inefficiently.

Really? I wouldn't call him an overly efficient player but I don't think he's inefficient either.

valade16
07-17-2013, 04:49 PM
Never!

Never, ever, ever *In Taylor Swift music*

GiantsSwaGG
07-17-2013, 04:51 PM
Really? I wouldn't call him an overly efficient player but I don't think he's inefficient either.

He's actually right, even in his best season he was stil inefficient

nycericanguy
07-17-2013, 04:54 PM
Last season wasn't his best, the year he played with AI was his best.

ClearSoulForce
07-17-2013, 04:57 PM
The same amount of times that Steve Novak has been a top 5 player in the NBA.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 04:59 PM
Based on, ON-COURT performance... never, maybe last year

IndyRealist
07-17-2013, 05:03 PM
Glad people are finally coming around. High volume, low efficiency chuckers do not help your team if they don't do anything else. Talent does not equal production. Just because he can score for anywhere doesn't mean he SHOULD.

colinskik
07-17-2013, 05:05 PM
I don't know that's he's ever been a top 5 player in a given year, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player. And it also doesn't take away from him being a great player.

Can we try, just try, to consider other things besides numbers? Just because he doesn't rack up assists doesn't mean he doesn't pass the ball. I'm not going to claim that passing is necessarily a strength in his game, but with so much attention paid to him by opposing defenses, his first pass will lead to another pass that swings to an open man who gets the hoop. Melo didn't get the assist but his pass led to the assist. This was more evident to begin the season last year, and eventually tailed off, resulting in more Melo ISO ball. Still not sure what the reason for that is ... you would think a coach would coach him out of that, unless said coach is asking him to do that. Think about that one.

Whatever you may think of Melo, he's still an unbelievable player and one of the best players I've seen on any Knicks squad throughout my years. Bottom line is you need to score the ball to win and Melo does that as well as 4 other players in the league.

xxplayerxx23
07-17-2013, 05:05 PM
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

Lol melo has Kobe beaten on almost every advanced stat. Melo was better then wade and harden last year

xxplayerxx23
07-17-2013, 05:07 PM
Based on, ON-COURT performance... never, maybe last year

Well I haven't looked but he had a great year in what was it 08? Not sure where he was ranked. I think top 5 last year IMO

Lebron
Durant
Paul
Melo/Parker
Parker/melo

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-17-2013, 05:09 PM
VERY close last season but besides that, never.

SluggeR
07-17-2013, 05:13 PM
Kobe is efficient?

xxplayerxx23
07-17-2013, 05:14 PM
VERY close last season but besides that, never.

Last year he was. He has the stats and advance stats to back it up

THE MTL
07-17-2013, 05:15 PM
I say he was always top 10 besides two seasons ago/rookie year and he was top 5 last season.

Federal Reserve
07-17-2013, 05:16 PM
Kobrick and Durant couldn't score as well as Melo did, last season. Melo is the second best player in the NBA; and it will remain that way until the Heat disband.

LAKobeBryant
07-17-2013, 05:18 PM
*which

xxplayerxx23
07-17-2013, 05:22 PM
Kobrick and Durant couldn't score as well as Melo did, last season. Melo is the second best player in the NBA; and it will remain that way until the Heat disband.

Nobody cares about your biased opinion

justinnum1
07-17-2013, 05:24 PM
probably every season except like 2. It depends what your rankings are based on if its stats/ability/impact on game/box office. Of the players who are ranked in the top 10 he has had the least help year in year out excpet lebron in cleveland

lol

Max.This
07-17-2013, 05:26 PM
i dont understand why threads with knicks or players playing for them ever go up. All that happens is kids want to bait and bash the knicks. If melo was playing for the mavs or any other team besides the knicks he'd be considered top 5.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 05:27 PM
Kobrick and Durant couldn't score as well as Melo did, last season. Melo is the second best player in the NBA; and it will remain that way until the Heat disband.

Melo was not even in the conversation with KD from a scoring standpoint last year, and that is the closest thing he has on KD.

I've always felt Melo would be used best as an elite 6th man role for his scoring punch ala how he was utilized for Team USA.

When you're one dimensional offensively, and not highly efficient, you had better be a top 10 defender if you want to be in the conversation for top 5. In this scenario, we're talking about a negative defender. It's one of the reasons why the best stat out there for offensive+defensive impact (eg, it knows Tony Allen and Sefalosha are monsters defensively on the wing, but are negatives on the other end) does not rank Melo in the top 30; he was top 10 on the offensive side, and in the bottom 20% defensively). Being that PER does not account for D in any way, that's where he shines brightest, and even then he was significantly behind Lebron and KD.

Anyway, long story short. Never. Duncan is still producing more for his team than Melo. And don't turn this into a "woe is me u just dont like the Knicks" thread. People had these comments about Melo since he's been in the league.

PhillyFaninLA
07-17-2013, 05:28 PM
i dont understand why threads with knicks or players playing for them ever go up. All that happens is kids want to bait and bash the knicks. If melo was playing for the mavs or any other team besides the knicks he'd be considered top 5.

no that's just not true....people are giving there opinions and you just disagree, top 5 players need to be well rounded and not hurt there team defensively in clutch situations

Max.This
07-17-2013, 05:31 PM
Melo was not even in the conversation with KD from a scoring standpoint last year, and that is the closest thing he has on KD.

I've always felt Melo would be used best as an elite 6th man role for his scoring punch ala how he was utilized for Team USA.

When you're one dimensional offensively, and not highly efficient, you had better be a top 10 defender if you want to be in the conversation for top 5. In this scenario, we're talking about a negative defender. It's one of the reasons why the best stat out there for offensive+defensive impact (eg, it knows Tony Allen and Sefalosha are monsters defensively on the wing, but are negatives on the other end) does not rank Melo in the top 30; he was top 10 on the offensive side, and in the bottom 20% defensively). Being that PER does not account for D in any way, that's where he shines brightest, and even then he was significantly behind Lebron and KD.

Anyway, long story short. Never. Duncan is still producing more for his team than Melo. And don't turn this into a "woe is me u just dont like the Knicks" thread. People had these comments about Melo since he's been in the league.


Sir, you've said some of the dumbest things to ever hit PSD all in one post. Not in the conversation from a scoring standpoint? i'm not a huge melo fan as an all around player but the guy can flat out score. You're just a hater when you say he's not in the same convo as KD. 6th man role? theres not one team that would put melo on the bench for the 6th man role. Theres soo many dumb things you've said in that post its impossible to correct without getting banned

Federal Reserve
07-17-2013, 05:32 PM
Melo was not even in the conversation with KD from a scoring standpoint last year, and that is the closest thing he has on KD.

I've always felt Melo would be used best as an elite 6th man role for his scoring punch ala how he was utilized for Team USA.

When you're one dimensional offensively, and not highly efficient, you had better be a top 10 defender if you want to be in the conversation for top 5. In this scenario, we're talking about a negative defender. It's one of the reasons why the best stat out there for offensive+defensive impact (eg, it knows Tony Allen and Sefalosha are monsters defensively on the wing, but are negatives on the other end) does not rank Melo in the top 30; he was top 10 on the offensive side, and in the bottom 20% defensively). Being that PER does not account for D in any way, that's where he shines brightest, and even then he was significantly behind Lebron and KD.

Anyway, long story short. Never. Duncan is still producing more for his team than Melo. And don't turn this into a "woe is me u just dont like the Knicks" thread. People had these comments about Melo since he's been in the league.

Melo's best teammate was J.R. Smith. Melo carried his team, unlike any other player in the NBA. Melo could beat any player you mentioned in a 1 vs 1 game.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 05:47 PM
Sir, you've said some of the dumbest things to ever hit PSD all in one post. Not in the conversation from a scoring standpoint? i'm not a huge melo fan as an all around player but the guy can flat out score. You're just a hater when you say he's not in the same convo as KD. 6th man role? theres not one team that would put melo on the bench for the 6th man role. Theres soo many dumb things you've said in that post its impossible to correct without getting banned

If Melo ever wants to win a championship, the team would have to be stacked with defensive juggernauts and a highly skilled playmaker in order to shore up the holes that his paltry D and massive USG% currently take up. To have a scorer of that caliber coming off the bench would be a great/dangerous combo. He probably had the highest USG% by a non center in NBA history to fail to average 3apg, so just let him come in and do what he does best. And obviously I realize that his ego and perceived star power would never allow this to actually happen. But it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a smart way to play to his strengths and hide his defensive struggles a bit with more time against a 2nd unit.

And you think that a guy who scores .6ppg more on a .560 TS% is in the same league as one who does it on .647 TS%? Hell no. Just look at what happened in the playoffs against tougher competition who had the ability to gameplan heavily focused on him without Westbrook. He put up 31/9/6 on .574 TS%. More points and more efficient against playoff squads, one of them being the best defensive team in the game. Melo? 28.8/6.6/1.1 on a cringe worthy .497 TS%. Smoked. And that was on a MASSIVE 38% USG%. 1.1 assists? That's so absurd for that level of time with the ball in your hands.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 05:50 PM
Sir, you've said some of the dumbest things to ever hit PSD all in one post. Not in the conversation from a scoring standpoint? i'm not a huge melo fan as an all around player but the guy can flat out score. You're just a hater when you say he's not in the same convo as KD. 6th man role? theres not one team that would put melo on the bench for the 6th man role. Theres soo many dumb things you've said in that post its impossible to correct without getting banned

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2013&p2=duranke01&y2=2013

It's worse than I thought it was. Durant's scoring efficiency takes a dump on Melo's. That being said, it takes a dump on pretty much any wing player. Durant scores about the same amount per game on 4 less attempts. His TS% is ridiculously high, as is his eFG%. While Melo is a very good scorer, Durant is the elite of the elite in scoring.

HouRealCoach
07-17-2013, 05:50 PM
ONLY last season.. Only because Wade fell off, Rose was out & Dwight wasn't Dwight

tredigs
07-17-2013, 05:53 PM
And some of you Knicks fans need to take a step back and realize that your team is not good enough to warrant hate. You're not the Yankees. You're the Mets. Nobody hates the Mets. And I can't speak for others, but it's not like I don't like Melo, either. He's ridiculously fun to watch sometimes, I just wouldn't want him leading my team, and I'm aware of the glaring holes in his game that separate him from the best of the best.

LegendsNvrDie23
07-17-2013, 05:54 PM
Maybe never, but people have got to stop hating. Melo has been a top level player for years now and gets undeserved hate for some reason.

HouRealCoach
07-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Melo's scoring is overrated.. Yes he can score inside & out in every way possible but with all of that talent, how is it that he takes so many stupid shots? Contested fade aways with big men on him? I can't stress how many times, watching Knicks & Pacers series. This guy had David West on him 20 feet out and took a jumper.. Really? There's a reason for his poor FG%'s

With that talent he should be a 50/40/90 player

justinnum1
07-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Melo's best teammate was J.R. Smith. Melo carried his team, unlike any other player in the NBA. Melo could beat any player you mentioned in a 1 vs 1 game.

Thats special.

bootypants
07-17-2013, 05:58 PM
Melo's best teammate was J.R. Smith. Melo carried his team, unlike any other player in the NBA. Melo could beat any player you mentioned in a 1 vs 1 game.

Ill take Lebron over Melo 1v1 every day of the week.

smood999
07-17-2013, 05:59 PM
Looking at Denver before Melo and after Melo..and the Knicks before and after...I would call that impact not many players can provide for a team...for that reason, he'll always be considered one of the best during his time period whether that's 5 or 10. Judging by the impact he's had on both franchises and looking at the stats that ppl throw out there, I would say the stats don't accurately reflect what he does for a team on the court or vice versa...so which is it?

HouRealCoach
07-17-2013, 06:00 PM
Maybe never, but people have got to stop hating. Melo has been a top level player for years now and gets undeserved hate for some reason.

Is he Top 5 though?

2004-2008 he wasn't
2009 it was LeBron, Kobe, CP3, D12, Wade
2010 it was LeBron, Kobe, Wade, D12, Durant
2011 it was LeBron, Kobe, Rose, D12, Durant
2012 it was LeBron, Durant, CP3, Rose, D12
2013 I'd give him a spot but other than that he hasn't came near the top 5

Kashmir13579
07-17-2013, 07:25 PM
Never.

Kashmir13579
07-17-2013, 07:27 PM
And some of you Knicks fans need to take a step back and realize that your team is not good enough to warrant hate. You're not the Yankees. You're the Mets. Nobody hates the Mets. And I can't speak for others, but it's not like I don't like Melo, either. He's ridiculously fun to watch sometimes, I just wouldn't want him leading my team, and I'm aware of the glaring holes in his game that separate him from the best of the best.

PSD hates the Knicks.

ManningToTyree
07-17-2013, 07:36 PM
Jb trolling hard lol

I Rock Shaqs
07-17-2013, 07:36 PM
Maybe the year they went far with Chauncey?

IBleedPurple
07-17-2013, 07:38 PM
He has sniffed the top 5, but never been there. Been 5-10 several times.

LegendsNvrDie23
07-17-2013, 07:40 PM
Is he Top 5 though?

2004-2008 he wasn't
2009 it was LeBron, Kobe, CP3, D12, Wade
2010 it was LeBron, Kobe, Wade, D12, Durant
2011 it was LeBron, Kobe, Rose, D12, Durant
2012 it was LeBron, Durant, CP3, Rose, D12
2013 I'd give him a spot but other than that he hasn't came near the top 5

No but top 10. You made this to prove he's not a top 5 player which isn't really a knock. you're just trying to troll the Knick fans.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 07:45 PM
PSD hates the Knicks.

I think there's a backlash because of the size of the fanbase and how many outspoken fans there are about how amazing they thought the team was/is, but it became very annoying very quick when Carmelo was traded there and many claimed that this was the tipping point for people to claim he was in fact NOT the best of the best like some were claiming. I saw that comment quite a bit, and the fact of the matter is that Melo's deficiencies were put on blast any time his name came up in MVP or best player talks dating back to his 3rd or 4th year in the league.

jimm120
07-17-2013, 07:47 PM
What seasons was Carmelo Anthony a top 5 player?

Melo's a top 10 player with top 5 talent.

Is there a reason why you're asking if he has ever been a top 5 player in the league?


Also, if you go by MVP votes, he's been in the top 5 2 times at least.

But yeah...we'll need more on what you consider a top 5 player.


And as said, I consider him a top 10 player, not top 5.

jimm120
07-17-2013, 07:51 PM
All I know is that Melo became a top 20 player to PSD members once he was traded to NY.

Melo was a top 10 player when he was in Denver.

I'm telling you. All. Of. A. Sudden.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 07:52 PM
Probably could have been top five if he played defense or chose to take better shots.

D-Leethal
07-17-2013, 08:11 PM
Melo's a top 10 player with top 5 talent.

Thats probably the best way of putting it.

It really depends on your definition though, I don't think there are 5 guys capable of shouldering an entire team like Melo can. You can't throw many guys on that Knicks team from last year and expect anywhere near 54 wins.

When it comes to the elite top 5-ish totem pole in the NBA, I think Melo is at the bottom of that totem pole, but I think he is on there. I don't think a guy like Blake Griffin is on there, I don't think Blake Griffin could carry a team to the playoffs like he can.

It depends if you like stats and consistency or you like impact and peak play. Guys who put up efficient numbers against single coverage and occasional doubles or guys who are gonna draw 3-4 eyes and double teams every possession?

Melo is basically the gatekeeper, the guy that rests in between the elite of the elite and the 2nd tier superstars. I think most of Melo's peers, and coaches in the NBA respect him a hell of a lot more than fans and media. 2nd tier superstars can't carry a team like Melo can.

And his poor D might be the most overstated overused regurgitation of anything in the basketball world. His D is not that bad. Its average at worst and plenty of average defenders don't get called out near as much as he does. He has his lapses in effort, but you can say that about almost anyone nowadays.

I think hes the guy who rests in between the CP3/Westbrooks and the Love/Blake Griffins.

JasonJohnHorn
07-17-2013, 08:13 PM
I'm still waiting for him to crack my top five actually ;-)

ClearSoulForce
07-17-2013, 08:19 PM
All I know is that Melo became a top 20 player to PSD members once he was traded to NY.

Melo was a top 10 player when he was in Denver.

I'm telling you. All. Of. A. Sudden.


Maybe because:

A. He is nothing more than a scorer
B. Is a huge chucker
C. SHoots 40% for his postseason career, he isn't a big game player
D. Is extremely overrated by Knicks fans

The reason you guys get so much hate is because you act like he is without question the best player in the NBA and is as good as Michael Jordan all time.

RLundi
07-17-2013, 08:20 PM
Last season was his best season and he wasn't top 5 IMO.

This.

ClearSoulForce
07-17-2013, 08:21 PM
Thats probably the best way of putting it.

It really depends on your definition though, I don't think there are 5 guys capable of shouldering an entire team like Melo can. You can't throw many guys on that Knicks team from last year and expect anywhere near 54 wins.

When it comes to the elite top 5-ish totem pole in the NBA, I think Melo is at the bottom of that totem pole, but I think he is on there. I don't think a guy like Blake Griffin is on there, I don't think Blake Griffin could carry a team to the playoffs like he can.

It depends if you like stats and consistency or you like impact and peak play. Guys who put up efficient numbers against single coverage and occasional doubles or guys who are gonna draw 3-4 eyes and double teams every possession?

Melo is basically the gatekeeper, the guy that rests in between the elite of the elite and the 2nd tier superstars. I think most of Melo's peers, and coaches in the NBA respect him a hell of a lot more than fans and media. 2nd tier superstars can't carry a team like Melo can.

And his poor D might be the most overstated overused regurgitation of anything in the basketball world. His D is not that bad. Its average at worst and plenty of average defenders don't get called out near as much as he does. He has his lapses in effort, but you can say that about almost anyone nowadays.

I think hes the guy who rests in between the CP3/Westbrooks and the Love/Blake Griffins.

Only few players in the league can completely carry a team, Melo is not one of them. Players who carry their teams carry them in the postseason as well.

LeBron
Dirk
Duncan
Kobe
Durant

that's it.

Bruno
07-17-2013, 08:35 PM
:laugh2:

maybe last year. never at any point before that. he just had a great season though.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 08:42 PM
Only few players in the league can completely carry a team, Melo is not one of them. Players who carry their teams carry them in the postseason as well.

LeBron
Dirk
Duncan
Kobe
Durant

that's it.

Well, to be honest, the only teams Kobe really carried were 1st round losers or did not make the post-season. Durant did carry OKC past Houston without Westbrook, so I suppose we can include him too. Also, D. Howard definitely carried Orlando on that finals run. But yeah, Melo obviously can't carry a team being that he offers so little in so many aspects of it. When everything was thrown at KD when Westbrook went down, he responded by becoming the teams top playmaker, rebounder, scorer and a force on defense. Melo got to the post-season and responded by somehow becoming even less of a playmaker, a light rebounder, meh D, and even his scoring devolved into bonafide chucker status.

D-Leethal
07-17-2013, 08:48 PM
Only few players in the league can completely carry a team, Melo is not one of them. Players who carry their teams carry them in the postseason as well.

LeBron
Dirk
Duncan
Kobe
Durant

that's it.

Dirk is the only guy there you can legitimately say carried his team to a title (current players and on your list). LeBron is the only one you can say carried his team to the Finals (in a conference where for the larger part of a decade the teams LeBron would play in round 3 were as good if not worse than the teams Melo would face in round 1).

You did absolutely nothing to prove your point or disprove mine there.

D-Leethal
07-17-2013, 08:56 PM
Well, to be honest, the only teams Kobe really carried were 1st round losers or did not make the post-season. Durant did carry OKC past Houston without Westbrook, so I suppose we can include him too. Also, D. Howard definitely carried Orlando on that finals run. But yeah, Melo obviously can't carry a team being that he offers so little in so many aspects of it. When everything was thrown at KD when Westbrook went down, he responded by becoming the teams top playmaker, rebounder, scorer and a force on defense. Melo got to the post-season and responded by somehow becoming even less of a playmaker, a light rebounder, meh D, and even his scoring devolved into bonafide chucker status.

How many guys in this league can be the first banana on a team with Felton, Chandler, JR Smith as your main supporting weapons and win 54 games? The only reason we were any good last year is because of the attention Melo garners on offense, which few others do, and the wide open 3s our supporting cast would get as a result.

HouRealCoach
07-17-2013, 09:03 PM
No but top 10. You made this to prove he's not a top 5 player which isn't really a knock. you're just trying to troll the Knick fans.

Well I thought the thread said Top 5... & I'm trying to troll myself? I guess just because I'm a Knicks fan means I have to think Melo is the best player ever

NewjackNY
07-17-2013, 09:12 PM
29 and 7 with the Knicks roster, yes Melo was definitely top 5 last year.

FYL_McVeezy
07-17-2013, 09:12 PM
2008-2009
2012-2013

naztrack
07-17-2013, 09:14 PM
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

lmao....cmon man (chris carter voice)

afman
07-17-2013, 09:28 PM
melo's years in nyk except 1st year

chitownredbulls
07-17-2013, 09:29 PM
None tbh....Kobe lebron wade Paul rose and others have always been better than melo IMO...lol

Da Knicks
07-17-2013, 09:29 PM
Lmao, most of the geeks can't rank him in the top 5. Most of these guys are the ones that don't rank Kobe very high either. Bet most of those posters played video games instead of actually playing the game growing up.

alexander_37
07-17-2013, 09:35 PM
Every year.

In his dreams.

alexander_37
07-17-2013, 09:36 PM
lmao....cmon man (chris carter voice)

Yeah man. There were a couple more guys better than Melo as well.

HouRealCoach
07-17-2013, 09:39 PM
2008-2009
2012-2013

2009? LeBron, Kobe, Dwight, CP3, Wade?

tredigs
07-17-2013, 09:44 PM
How many guys in this league can be the first banana on a team with Felton, Chandler, JR Smith as your main supporting weapons and win 54 games? The only reason we were any good last year is because of the attention Melo garners on offense, which few others do, and the wide open 3s our supporting cast would get as a result.

Nah that's not true. Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end. There was one guy who cracked the top 10 in RAPM (adjusted plus/minus) for New York and it wasn't Melo. That does say something.

And the bottom line is that you can't carry a team when you're one dimensional. Helping to create spacing by drawing attention like you say is all well and good, but how does that end up as only 2.6 assists a night? He can't run an offense, he just shoots a lot, but he's good at that much. At least until the playoffs this year.

If you want to see a player who truly carried a team, look at '03 Duncan.

Bubba313
07-17-2013, 09:54 PM
Nah that's not true. Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end. There was one guy who cracked the top 10 in RAPM (adjusted plus/minus) for New York and it wasn't Melo. That does say something.

And the bottom line is that you can't carry a team when you're one dimensional. Helping to create spacing by drawing attention like you say is all well and good, but how does that end up as only 2.6 assists a night? He can't run an offense, he just shoots a lot, but he's good at that much. At least until the playoffs this year.

If you want to see a player who truly carried a team, look at '03 Duncan.

It really is so obvious when people don't watch the games, but simply look at stats.

Also, hockey assists

010957
07-17-2013, 09:55 PM
carmello's best season was this one that has passed. If you don't think he was top 5 in 2012-13 season, then he was never top 5

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 09:58 PM
probably every season except like 2. It depends what your rankings are based on if its stats/ability/impact on game/box office. Of the players who are ranked in the top 10 he has had the least help year in year out excpet lebron in cleveland

Are you kidding? He has never been a top 5 player in the NBA, not even top 10 - in a single season. He's a high volume shooting selfish pile.

OMG... what rubbish...

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 10:01 PM
Lmao, most of the geeks can't rank him in the top 5. Most of these guys are the ones that don't rank Kobe very high either. Bet most of those posters played video games instead of actually playing the game growing up.

Well... I played and coached, and 'Melo has NEVER been a top 10 player in the NBA. Kobe is far better, but he shoots too much too.

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 10:05 PM
How come his appearance on the leaderboards is:

FGA - but not FG%
FTA - but not FT%
TOV's - but not steals or assists
USG% .....

You people are dreaming - led on by idiot announcers, and ESPN's idea of hoops, and more puerile "hero ball" fantasies.

He could be great, he chooses not to be. He's easily one of the 15 most overrated players going back to 1960 - easily, maybe top 8.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 10:06 PM
It really is so obvious when people don't watch the games, but simply look at stats.

Also, hockey assists

No, I just have to use good stats for people that have no ability to be objective. There's not many people I know that play and watch more ball than I do.

Everybody gets hockey assists. It's still no excuse to deliver 2.6apg while leading the entire NBA with a Usage rate over 35%. And what happened in the playoffs when he was gameplanned for? He **** the bed with an even higher Usage rate and even lower apg. Only his scoring was ruined, too. All you have to do is compare him to Durant to see the difference between top 5 and not top 5 impact.

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 10:10 PM
No, I just have to use good stats for people that have no ability to be objective. There's not many people I know that play and watch more ball than I do.

Everybody gets hockey assists. It's still no excuse to deliver 2.6apg while leading the entire NBA with a Usage rate over 35%. And what happened in the playoffs when he was gameplanned for? He **** the bed with an even higher Usage rate and even lower apg. Only his scoring was ruined, too. All you have to do is compare him to Durant to see the difference between top 5 and not top 5 impact.

Nice post - the past 3 out of 4 years Durant put up seasons that Carmelo never has and never will touch.

ArmLaker
07-17-2013, 10:20 PM
I can't believe the sheer amount of disrespect that Carmelo Anthony receives from fans. He was easily a top 5 player last season.

Bubba313
07-17-2013, 10:24 PM
No, I just have to use good stats for people that have no ability to be objective. There's not many people I know that play and watch more ball than I do.

Everybody gets hockey assists. It's still no excuse to deliver 2.6apg while leading the entire NBA with a Usage rate over 35%. And what happened in the playoffs when he was gameplanned for? He **** the bed with an even higher Usage rate and even lower apg. Only his scoring was ruined, too. All you have to do is compare him to Durant to see the difference between top 5 and not top 5 impact.

The question was Top 5, not Top 2. Nobody's comparing him to Durant.

You said Chandler was a huge impact for us last year, yet we closed the season on a 16-2 run without him. Any Knick fan will tell you he was not the same player this year.

Also, I don't understand how people can have such tunnel vision with regard to scorers in general. Do people not see how Melo opens up opportunities for other players by just being on the floor? You give him the ball in the post, and the entire defense has to react. Yea, there's no stat for that, and it may not net him an assist, but there's a reason we led the league in 3 PT FG's with an average to below average PG.

And with regard to the playoffs, no excuses he didn't play well. He also had a torn labrum and the second option just had surgery on an injury to his knee that he played through the entire season with. What I'm getting at is, we didn't make shots. Melo took it into his own hands, and it didn't work out. Do I think we would of won if J.R. shot above 30% and Tyson didn't get manhandled by Hibbert? Yes, I do.

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 10:24 PM
I can't believe the sheer amount of disrespect that Carmelo Anthony receives from fans. He was easily a top 5 player last season.

By what measure?

Bubba313
07-17-2013, 10:31 PM
No, I just have to use good stats for people that have no ability to be objective. There's not many people I know that play and watch more ball than I do.

Everybody gets hockey assists. It's still no excuse to deliver 2.6apg while leading the entire NBA with a Usage rate over 35%. And what happened in the playoffs when he was gameplanned for? He **** the bed with an even higher Usage rate and even lower apg. Only his scoring was ruined, too. All you have to do is compare him to Durant to see the difference between top 5 and not top 5 impact.

Also, lets revisit the Pacer series. According to you, he "****" the bed. How in the world were we winning in Game 6 with less than two minutes left if Melo **** the bed. J.R. gave us nothing. Tyson was a negative on the court. Amar'e was non-existent. Felton got destroyed by Hill in all but one game.

Yet, there we were, Game 6 ready to bring it back to the Garden for Game 7, but we couldn't pull through. I'm just wondering how we get there when our next two best players were a rookie (Chris Copeland) and a 2nd year guy coming off an ACL (Shump).

ArmLaker
07-17-2013, 10:34 PM
By what measure?

Idk, the fact that made the Knicks are very formidable team last season while having a superb year. His talent and skill offensively is beyond the charts.

I mean who was better than him last season?

Kobe
LeBron
Durant

Who else?

juggla53
07-17-2013, 10:45 PM
PSD hates the Knicks.

Haha typical knicks fan, why on earth would anyone hate the knicks? they have not been relevant in terms of championship contenders in the last 15 years, nobody hates the knicks they just laugh at them

JordansBulls
07-17-2013, 10:47 PM
2009? LeBron, Kobe, Dwight, CP3, Wade?

You can make a case of 2009 Melo based only on how bad CP3 played in the playoffs.

bagwell368
07-17-2013, 11:07 PM
Idk, the fact that made the Knicks are very formidable team last season while having a superb year. His talent and skill offensively is beyond the charts.

I mean who was better than him last season?

Kobe
LeBron
Durant

Who else?

Obviously better:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Harden
Westbrook
Bryant
DWill
M Gasol
Curry


Close:

Blake, Conley, Hill, Wade, Carmelo

Cermelo obviously has skill, but it's how he uses it, or misuses it that makes me object to him.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 11:13 PM
The question was Top 5, not Top 2. Nobody's comparing him to Durant.

You said Chandler was a huge impact for us last year, yet we closed the season on a 16-2 run without him. Any Knick fan will tell you he was not the same player this year.

Also, I don't understand how people can have such tunnel vision with regard to scorers in general. Do people not see how Melo opens up opportunities for other players by just being on the floor? You give him the ball in the post, and the entire defense has to react. Yea, there's no stat for that, and it may not net him an assist, but there's a reason we led the league in 3 PT FG's with an average to below average PG.

And with regard to the playoffs, no excuses he didn't play well. He also had a torn labrum and the second option just had surgery on an injury to his knee that he played through the entire season with. What I'm getting at is, we didn't make shots. Melo took it into his own hands, and it didn't work out. Do I think we would of won if J.R. shot above 30% and Tyson didn't get manhandled by Hibbert? Yes, I do.

Many of his fans compare him to Durant. And there's no doubt that he and NY killed it in that last month. If he could do that for a whole season we'd be having a different discussion right now.

And the top 3pt shooters were JR, Novak, Kidd and Melo himself. They weren't taking any more because of Melo than they did in any other situation or hitting them at a higher rate, so not buying that one.

Like I said, nobody in the history of the game has done less creating for his team with a Usage% at that level.

Kashmir13579
07-17-2013, 11:15 PM
Haha typical knicks fan, why on earth would anyone hate the knicks? they have not been relevant in terms of championship contenders in the last 15 years, nobody hates the knicks they just laugh at them
I've been on this site long enough to see the obvious trend. :shrug:

Your post falls right in-line with PSDs consensus attitude towards the Knicks and their fans.

I think its simply because there are so many of us.

Kashmir13579
07-17-2013, 11:24 PM
Many of his fans compare him to Durant. And there's no doubt that he and NY killed it in that last month. If he could do that for a whole season we'd be having a different discussion right now.

And the top 3pt shooters were JR, Novak, Kidd and Melo himself. They weren't taking any more because of Melo than they did in any other situation or hitting them at a higher rate, so not buying that one.

Like I said, nobody in the history of the game has done less creating for his team with a Usage% at that level.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Also, acknowledge Felton and Shumpert had a remarkable season from 3pt range, and that the Knicks were i believe 2nd in offensive efficiency behind OKC.

Not that i'm arguing for 'Melo's sake vs Durant. i think he's top 10 at his very best, routinely takes months off and possessions off. I'm just not buying your hyperbole, or perhaps you could define better what you mean by "creating", especially in regards to this last season, which was no doubt 'Melo's finest overall effort.

beasted86
07-17-2013, 11:32 PM
Never, ever, ever *In Taylor Swift music*

It's sad that you get whatever reference you are trying to make. :(

The only "ever ever" reference I even know of is Outkast Ms. Jackson.

tredigs
07-17-2013, 11:36 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Also, acknowledge Felton and Shumpert had a remarkable season from 3pt range, and that the Knicks were i believe 2nd in offensive efficiency behind OKC.

Not that i'm arguing for 'Melo's sake vs Durant. i think he's top 10 at his very best, routinely takes months off and possessions off. I'm just not buying your hyperbole, or perhaps you could define better what you mean by "creating", especially in regards to this last season, which was no doubt 'Melo's finest overall effort.

He was arguably the most one dimensional player in the games history to post a usage% at that level (which isn't even factoring in that he's often absent all together on D) is what I'm saying. It's unheard of to accrue a 35% USG% with 14.1Assist% (down to 9.3% in the playoffs where he was posting 1.6apg with a wild 38% USG%). KD for example had a 21.7% Assist% (4.3 apg) on a 29.8% USG%. Ballooned up 29.2% Assist% in the playoffs (6.3 apg).

Knicks21
07-17-2013, 11:36 PM
By what measure?

The God of all PSD statistics, PER.

Bubba313
07-17-2013, 11:44 PM
Many of his fans compare him to Durant. And there's no doubt that he and NY killed it in that last month. If he could do that for a whole season we'd be having a different discussion right now.

And the top 3pt shooters were JR, Novak, Kidd and Melo himself. They weren't taking any more because of Melo than they did in any other situation or hitting them at a higher rate, so not buying that one.

Like I said, nobody in the history of the game has done less creating for his team with a Usage% at that level.

So how did these people get open? You think Kidd and Novak could get off a shot by themselves? J.R. was the only other player who could actually create a shot for himself, and we all know how 1) his handle is shady at best, and 2) whenever he does put it on the floor, he usually pulls up from just inside the 3 point line testing mine and all other Knicks' fans sanity.

But, even more importantly, during a game last year, Breen brought up some pretty important statistics with regard to J.R. It was something like he shot below 25% off the dribble on 3 point attempts, but that percentage sky rocketed to around 40% on spot up situations.

Take all of this info together, nobody was creating their own shots on this team. So I'm wondering how they shot so well?

One more caveat, we were a team that operated almost entirely in the half-court. So, again, how did they get open and how did they shoot so well?

smood999
07-17-2013, 11:48 PM
it's really as simple as where were the Knicks before Melo and where would they be now without him? He may not be top 5 but the way his impact is downplayed by some is ridiculous...

Becks2307
07-17-2013, 11:51 PM
Nah that's not true. Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end. There was one guy who cracked the top 10 in RAPM (adjusted plus/minus) for New York and it wasn't Melo. That does say something.

And the bottom line is that you can't carry a team when you're one dimensional. Helping to create spacing by drawing attention like you say is all well and good, but how does that end up as only 2.6 assists a night? He can't run an offense, he just shoots a lot, but he's good at that much. At least until the playoffs this year.

If you want to see a player who truly carried a team, look at '03 Duncan.

Wait you're talking about last season?

L-M-A-O

Jesus christ, PSD people need to stop talking about teams they dont watch.

smood999
07-17-2013, 11:52 PM
Obviously better:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Harden
Westbrook
Bryant
DWill
M Gasol
Curry


Close:

Blake, Conley, Hill, Wade, Carmelo

Cermelo obviously has skill, but it's how he uses it, or misuses it that makes me object to him.

Deron Williams is still ranked that high?! Mike Conley is as good as Melo and Wade?! Would anyone trade Melo straight up for Marc Gasol? Take Melo off the Knicks and put Gasol on it...the Knicks are nowhere near as good as they were this season...some of your other arguments I can see your point although I think it's a bit exaggerated...but this list..

Becks2307
07-17-2013, 11:53 PM
Obviously better:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Harden
Westbrook
Bryant
DWill
M Gasol
Curry


Close:

Blake, Conley, Hill, Wade, Carmelo

Cermelo obviously has skill, but it's how he uses it, or misuses it that makes me object to him.


JEEZUS CHRIST.

Wow. The trolling is ridiculous.

smood999
07-17-2013, 11:57 PM
Nah that's not true. Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end. There was one guy who cracked the top 10 in RAPM (adjusted plus/minus) for New York and it wasn't Melo. That does say something.

And the bottom line is that you can't carry a team when you're one dimensional. Helping to create spacing by drawing attention like you say is all well and good, but how does that end up as only 2.6 assists a night? He can't run an offense, he just shoots a lot, but he's good at that much. At least until the playoffs this year.

If you want to see a player who truly carried a team, look at '03 Duncan.

Chandler's impact was nowhere near what it was during his first season here...he dropped off a lot...he was not deserving of a first team all defense spot...he was good the first half of the season but still not the same from the previous yr. He was almost non existent after the All Star break.

ArmLaker
07-17-2013, 11:58 PM
Seriously, this Carmelo hating has got to stop. He's better than most of the players you named either way.

Outside of Kobe, LeBron, and possibly Durant......who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Who has that offensive firepower of Carmelo. This guy has never failed to take a team to the playoffs his entire career including his rookie year in a tough western conference.

lol @ Harden, Gasol, Curry

tredigs
07-17-2013, 11:59 PM
So how did these people get open? You think Kidd and Novak could get off a shot by themselves? J.R. was the only other player who could actually create a shot for himself, and we all know how 1) his handle is shady at best, and 2) whenever he does put it on the floor, he usually pulls up from just inside the 3 point line testing mine and all other Knicks' fans sanity.

But, even more importantly, during a game last year, Breen brought up some pretty important statistics with regard to J.R. It was something like he shot below 25% off the dribble on 3 point attempts, but that percentage sky rocketed to around 40% on spot up situations.

Take all of this info together, nobody was creating their own shots on this team. So I'm wondering how they shot so well?

One more caveat, we were a team that operated almost entirely in the half-court. So, again, how did they get open and how did they shoot so well?

You're acting like they were shooting in ways we haven't come to expect from all of them throughout their career. The team just had a lot of shooters. It's not tough to find your shot throughout the course of a game, they've all been doing it in various different situations throughout their career.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 12:03 AM
Chandler's impact was nowhere near what it was during his first season here...he dropped off a lot...he was not deserving of a first team all defense spot...he was good the first half of the season but still not the same from the previous yr. He was almost non existent after the All Star break.

I realize he wasn't as good as his first year and fell off/got injured, but he was still the best defensive center you guys have had in more than a decade and still a strong paint presence. He mattered for NY last year. It's not like Carmelo is capable of going Nova offensively like he did in that final month for an entire season.


Seriously, this Carmelo hating has got to stop. He's better than most of the players you named either way.

Outside of Kobe, LeBron, and possibly Durant......who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Who has that offensive firepower of Carmelo. This guy has never failed to take a team to the playoffs his entire career including his rookie year in a tough western conference.

lol @ Harden, Gasol, Curry
Laugh all you want, all of those guys are better than Melo. What's truly laughable is having Kobe next to Lebron and Durant like that.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 12:09 AM
Lol melo has Kobe beaten on almost every advanced stat. Melo was better then wade and harden last year

What qualifies as "almost every advanced stat"? PER, which is known to reward volume of missed shots?


"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating#Problems_With_PER

OceanSpray
07-18-2013, 12:11 AM
LeBron
Kobe
Durant
CP3
TP

Better than Melo. He's nothing but a scorer.

ArmLaker
07-18-2013, 12:11 AM
I realize he wasn't as good as his first year and fell off/got injured, but he was still the best defensive center you guys have had in more than a decade and still a strong paint presence. He mattered for NY last year. It's not like Carmelo is capable of going Nova offensively like he did in that final month for an entire season.


Laugh all you want, all of those guys are better than Melo. What's truly laughable is having Kobe next to Lebron and Durant like that.

Kobe
Durant
LeBron
Melo
throw in whoever you want...

Carmelo is elite, any objective person can see that. I'm not even a Knicks fan as you can tell.

ArmLaker
07-18-2013, 12:12 AM
LeBron
Kobe
Durant
CP3
TP

Better than Melo. He's nothing but a scorer.

Carmelo is easily better than Tony Parker and I think better than Paul

OceanSpray
07-18-2013, 12:12 AM
Seriously, this Carmelo hating has got to stop. He's better than most of the players you named either way.

Outside of Kobe, LeBron, and possibly Durant......who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Who has that offensive firepower of Carmelo. This guy has never failed to take a team to the playoffs his entire career including his rookie year in a tough western conference.

lol @ Harden, Gasol, Curry

Who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Are you kidding me? Carmelo has been to the playoffs but how far has he gotten? Not very far. Carmelo is overrated. Great scorer at times. High volume shooter.

ArmLaker
07-18-2013, 12:14 AM
Who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Are you kidding me? Carmelo has been to the playoffs but how far has he gotten? Not very far. Carmelo is overrated. Great scorer at times. High volume shooter.

Unlike Paul, Harden, Curry etc Carmelo has at least made it to a conference final.....I don't get how these players are better than Carmelo.......I mean individually. Harden as top 1 or 2 I should say

tredigs
07-18-2013, 12:16 AM
Deron Williams is still ranked that high?! Mike Conley is as good as Melo and Wade?! Would anyone trade Melo straight up for Marc Gasol? Take Melo off the Knicks and put Gasol on it...the Knicks are nowhere near as good as they were this season...some of your other arguments I can see your point although I think it's a bit exaggerated...but this list..
The "Take X player off and put him on Y team" makes zero sense. Certain teams are built for certain players, and NY is very much tailored to Melo right now. But Gasol is a MASSIVE defensive presence while also being a very solid offensive player. He plays both ends and is even a better passer than Melo. It's not that surprising that he totaled more winshares and crushed Melo in RAPM.

OceanSpray
07-18-2013, 12:16 AM
Unlike Paul, Harden, Curry etc Carmelo has at least made it to a conference final.....I don't get how these players are better than Carmelo.......I mean individually. Harden as top 1 or 2 I should say

What... Harden made it to the NBA finals, what are you talking about.

Becks2307
07-18-2013, 12:17 AM
I realize he wasn't as good as his first year and fell off/got injured, but he was still the best defensive center you guys have had in more than a decade and still a strong paint presence. He mattered for NY last year. It's not like Carmelo is capable of going Nova offensively like he did in that final month for an entire season.


Laugh all you want, all of those guys are better than Melo. What's truly laughable is having Kobe next to Lebron and Durant like that.

Wait do you really? because you just said:

"Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end."

and thats a shocking statement if you watched the Knicks last season/playoffs.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 12:17 AM
So how did these people get open? You think Kidd and Novak could get off a shot by themselves? J.R. was the only other player who could actually create a shot for himself, and we all know how 1) his handle is shady at best, and 2) whenever he does put it on the floor, he usually pulls up from just inside the 3 point line testing mine and all other Knicks' fans sanity.

But, even more importantly, during a game last year, Breen brought up some pretty important statistics with regard to J.R. It was something like he shot below 25% off the dribble on 3 point attempts, but that percentage sky rocketed to around 40% on spot up situations.

Take all of this info together, nobody was creating their own shots on this team. So I'm wondering how they shot so well?

One more caveat, we were a team that operated almost entirely in the half-court. So, again, how did they get open and how did they shoot so well?

Yup. Because NO ONE ever set a screen for Melo to shake off a defender or provide a better matchup on a switch, or boxed out a post defender to open up the lane, and Melo didn't benefit from floor spacing provided by Novak and Kidd. It's all interrelated, and to focus on one and ignore the others is biased. I will consider the Melo effect when the Novak effect and the Chandler effect are accounted for.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 12:19 AM
What qualifies as "almost every advanced stat"? PER, which is known to reward volume of missed shots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating#Problems_With_PER

Read Hollinger's rebuttal. That guy was totally wrong in his article. The threshold point is 48.5%, not 30.4%. PER's a great stat for offensive performance after minutes and team role are factored in, but it doesn't tell you a thing about overall impact on the defensive end.

Becks2307
07-18-2013, 12:22 AM
I was never one of those "Woe is us" knick posters regarding PSD but it's becoming really apparent. For a team that you all claim is "irrelevant" there is alot of hate.

1)JR Smith wins 6th man of the year and gets BASHED in the thread
2) Melo wins the scoring title and gets lambasted for...scoring? (I've never seen so much hate on PSD for a scoring title winner.
3) JR smith gets signed to a VERY reasonable 6 mil a year, and the thread is overrun by posters saying "wow what a waste," "i can't believe he got that" etc etc.

Then Knick fans have to come and defend their team and get chastised for "overrating the knicks and being homers."

ClearSoulForce
07-18-2013, 12:23 AM
Seriously, this Carmelo hating has got to stop. He's better than most of the players you named either way.

Outside of Kobe, LeBron, and possibly Durant......who can lead a franchise like Carmelo? Who has that offensive firepower of Carmelo. This guy has never failed to take a team to the playoffs his entire career including his rookie year in a tough western conference.

lol @ Harden, Gasol, Curry


Uhh Dirk....

11 straight 50 win seasons with subpar talent around him including 2 trips to the Finals, and one title.

In the playoffs, he has averaged 25.9 points and 10.3 rebounds, which only Hakeem Olajuwon, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor have managed to do. In the most pressure packed games, such as playoff elimination games he averages 28.8 points, 11.8 rebounds. He has had 14 elimination games where he scored 30 or more points, which ties him with Jerry West for most all time. Of the top 100 elimination game performances in the last 20 years, Nowitzki has had the best performances in 8 of them, more than any other player in the NBA in that same time frame.[98]

GO ahead and disagree with me and sound like an idiot. I bet Melo's 40% FG in his postseason career and 8 out of 10 first round exits are better though right?

tredigs
07-18-2013, 12:23 AM
Wait do you really? because you just said:

"Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end."

and thats a shocking statement if you watched the Knicks last season/playoffs.

Where did the Knicks get what defense they had last year? Who was it coming from? Felton, Melo, JR, Novak? The corpse of Kidd and Amare? Shumpert's 20 minutes for half the season?

Becks2307
07-18-2013, 12:30 AM
Where did the Knicks get what defense they had last year? Who was it coming from? Felton, Melo, JR, Novak? The corpse of Kidd and Amare? Shumpert's 20 minutes for half the season?

You said:

"Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end."

then you said:

"I realize he wasn't as good as his first year and fell off/got injured, but he was still the best defensive center you guys have had in more than a decade and still a strong paint presence."

It seems you only "realized" after someone told you.

Would we have been worse defensively without Chandler last year? Probably, but he was decidedly average last year. "Massive" and "only" - thats hyperbole if i've ever seen it.

It's just shocking to me that someone would say that if they watched the Knicks last season.

ArmLaker
07-18-2013, 12:40 AM
Uhh Dirk....

11 straight 50 win seasons with subpar talent around him including 2 trips to the Finals, and one title.

In the playoffs, he has averaged 25.9 points and 10.3 rebounds, which only Hakeem Olajuwon, Bob Pettit and Elgin Baylor have managed to do. In the most pressure packed games, such as playoff elimination games he averages 28.8 points, 11.8 rebounds. He has had 14 elimination games where he scored 30 or more points, which ties him with Jerry West for most all time. Of the top 100 elimination game performances in the last 20 years, Nowitzki has had the best performances in 8 of them, more than any other player in the NBA in that same time frame.[98]

GO ahead and disagree with me and sound like an idiot. I bet Melo's 40% FG in his postseason career and 8 out of 10 first round exits are better though right?

I'll give you Dirk.....I can't disagree with that......but I just hate when posters hate on a great player for having flaws. Criticizing is one thing but disrespect is another.

HesterJordan23
07-18-2013, 12:45 AM
What seasons "were" melo considered top 5 not "was" sorry just bugs me.

NYJ - NYY
07-18-2013, 12:49 AM
This is ugly ... Go my ***** melo and go my ****in Knicks **** everyone else

tredigs
07-18-2013, 12:52 AM
You said:

"Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end."

then you said:

"I realize he wasn't as good as his first year and fell off/got injured, but he was still the best defensive center you guys have had in more than a decade and still a strong paint presence."

It seems you only "realized" after someone told you.

Would we have been worse defensively without Chandler last year? Probably, but he was decidedly average last year. "Massive" and "only" - thats hyperbole if i've ever seen it.

It's just shocking to me that someone would say that if they watched the Knicks last season.

He WAS massive for you guys defensively even though he wasn't the player he was in 2012. You'd have been a bottom 5 team on that end without him being that virtually every Knick outside of him was crap on that end. http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/NYK.html R+Adjusted +/- for your team last year.

He also led you guys in WS/48 and averaged a double double with the league leading TS% and Offensive rating. Stop acting like he was Eddy Curry just to talk up your boy.

Bookey
07-18-2013, 01:03 AM
Melo haters say never, but the truth is every year but his first 2 or 3

tredigs
07-18-2013, 01:05 AM
Melo haters say never, but the truth is every year but his first 2 or 3

Hahahahahah - OK, I'm out.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 01:20 AM
Read Hollinger's rebuttal. That guy was totally wrong in his article. The threshold point is 48.5%, not 30.4%. PER's a great stat for offensive performance after minutes and team role are factored in, but it doesn't tell you a thing about overall impact on the defensive end.

Link? Because looking at Hollinger's Game Score, the simplified, quick calculating version of PER (which has a 99% correlation to PER) has: PTS + 0.4*FGM -0.7*FGA. That means a player who takes 24 2pt FGs and make 7 would have:

14+0.4*7-0.7*24= 0

So the break even point is 29.1% on 2pt FGs. Just to reiterate, this is not PER. This is the simplified formula of PER, also developed by Hollinger, which correlates 99% with PER. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hollinger

PER is, some would say, purposefully a pain in the butt to calculate, to obscure the ability to analyze it.

NewjackNY
07-18-2013, 01:25 AM
Nah that's not true. Chandler was massive for you guys defensively and the only reason why you guys weren't flat terrible on that end. There was one guy who cracked the top 10 in RAPM (adjusted plus/minus) for New York and it wasn't Melo. That does say something.

And the bottom line is that you can't carry a team when you're one dimensional. Helping to create spacing by drawing attention like you say is all well and good, but how does that end up as only 2.6 assists a night? He can't run an offense, he just shoots a lot, but he's good at that much. At least until the playoffs this year.

If you want to see a player who truly carried a team, look at '03 Duncan.

It really depends on your team. There aren't many guys that can affect the outcome of games in so many ways like Lebron or CP3, but to say Melo isn't top 5 because he's a scorer is ridiculous. All of the guys that were in your top 5 last year play on better teams than the Knicks. Melo is playing with a bunch of role players and he still got to the 2nd round. He's not a playmaker and may not fill up the stat sheet but he definitely carried the Knicks last year. Put any of your top 5 other than CP3 or Lebron on the Knicks last year, they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 01:42 AM
Link? Because looking at Hollinger's Game Score, the simplified, quick calculating version of PER (which has a 99% correlation to PER) has: PTS + 0.4*FGM -0.7*FGA. That means a player who takes 24 2pt FGs and make 7 would have:

14+0.4*7-0.7*24= 0

So the break even point is 29.1% on 2pt FGs. Just to reiterate, this is not PER. This is the simplified formula of PER, also developed by Hollinger, which correlates 99% with PER. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hollinger

PER is, some would say, purposefully a pain in the butt to calculate, to obscure the ability to analyze it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating



Hollinger responded, via a post on ESPN's TrueHoop blog:
Berri leads off with a huge misunderstanding of PER — that the credits and debits it gives for making and missing shots equate to a “break-even” shooting mark of 30.4% on 2-point shots. He made this assumption because he forgot that PER is calibrated against the rest of the league at the end of the formula. Actually, if we took a player was completely average in every other respect for the 2006-07 season — rebounds, free throws, assists, turnovers, etc. — and gave him a league-average rate of shots, and all of them were 2-pointers, and he shot 30.4%, he’d end up with a PER of 7.18. As long-time PER fans know, that would make him considerably worse than nearly every player in the league. To end up with a league-aveage PER of 15.00, the actual break-even mark in this case is 48.5%, which is exactly what the league average is on 2-point shots this season.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 01:45 AM
It really depends on your team. There aren't many guys that can affect the outcome of games in so many ways like Lebron or CP3, but to say Melo isn't top 5 because he's a scorer is ridiculous. All of the guys that were in your top 5 last year play on better teams than the Knicks. Melo is playing with a bunch of role players and he still got to the 2nd round. He's not a playmaker and may not fill up the stat sheet but he definitely carried the Knicks last year. Put any of your top 5 other than CP3 or Lebron on the Knicks last year, they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Ridiculous/laughable/false.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 01:55 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating

Thanks for finding it for me!

That is a classic straw man argument, as he controls for the NUMBER of 2pt FGs in this instance. The argument is not that he would be an average player, but rather that should he shoot that percentage, that his PER would not go down by increasing his shots. And by extension, if he were to shoot even slightly above that percentage, his PER would go up the more shots he takes, despite being a poor shooter. So, PER does in fact reward poor shooting.

It does not matter that the formula is normalized to 15.00, as Hollinger claims. It is an additive formula with linear weights. Unless you change the individual weights between uPER and PER, there is no difference in the relative value of a made shot versus a missed shot.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 02:03 AM
This is the adjustment from uPER to PER, and nowhere does it change the coefficients

PER = [uPER*(lgPace/tmPace)] * (15/lguPER)

Kashmir13579
07-18-2013, 02:17 AM
He was arguably the most one dimensional player in the games history to post a usage% at that level (which isn't even factoring in that he's often absent all together on D) is what I'm saying. It's unheard of to accrue a 35% USG% with 14.1Assist% (down to 9.3% in the playoffs where he was posting 1.6apg with a wild 38% USG%). KD for example had a 21.7% Assist% (4.3 apg) on a 29.8% USG%. Ballooned up 29.2% Assist% in the playoffs (6.3 apg).
I get all that. KD is in a different category. Are we passed that now? I made it a point to say i was.

You sidestepped the issue of his teammates spiked shooting percentages from outside, and a top three offense centered around a guy your assist percentages claim doesn't create anything for his teammates. Unless your position is that Tyson Chandler and his ORtg created this machine of an offense, there is more to talk about than your assist percentages.

Bringing 'Melo's playoff numbers into the conversation shows your agenda and unfamiliarity with the Knicks' context and post season circumstances. You would agree JR Smith and Chandler are 'Melo's #2 and #3? Look at their futility in the postseason, and subsequently the burden 'Melo shouldered. Then know not all of this fits into your vaacum.

I say all of this as a full-blown skeptic of 'Melo.

TrueFan420
07-18-2013, 02:41 AM
Put any of your top 5 other than CP3 or Lebron on the Knicks last year, they wouldn't have made the playoffs.
Your tripping. Any top 10 player can take that Knicks line up to the playoffs in the east.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 02:51 AM
I get all that. KD is in a different category. Are we passed that now? I made it a point to say i was.

You sidestepped the issue of his teammates spiked shooting percentages from outside, and a top three offense centered around a guy your assist percentages claim doesn't create anything for his teammates. Unless your position is that Tyson Chandler and his ORtg created this machine of an offense, there is more to talk about than your assist percentages.

Bringing 'Melo's playoff numbers into the conversation shows your agenda and unfamiliarity with the Knicks' context and post season circumstances. You would agree JR Smith and Chandler are 'Melo's #2 and #3? Look at their futility in the postseason, and subsequently the burden 'Melo shouldered. Then know not all of this fits into your vaacum.

I say all of this as a full-blown skeptic of 'Melo.

Not following you, are we supposed to ignore his playoff woes because his teammates also struggled? I understand that he had a huge offensive burden, and it was one that he expectedly collapsed under in the end.

I didn't sidestep his teammates spiked shooting percentages from the outside. I made mention of the fact that it didn't occur.


This is the adjustment from uPER to PER, and nowhere does it change the coefficients

That's interesting, I'm going to look into it a little more tomorrow and see what Berri's counter to Hollinger was.

RLundi
07-18-2013, 03:09 AM
Obviously better:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Harden
Westbrook
Bryant
DWill
M Gasol
Curry


Close:

Blake, Conley, Hill, Wade, Carmelo

Cermelo obviously has skill, but it's how he uses it, or misuses it that makes me object to him.

Um what?? I'll spot the rest but the bolded? Absolutely not. And Wade should be in the first list, not the "close."

RiceOnTheRun
07-18-2013, 03:21 AM
its not because he scores a lot, thats just all he does, and to top it of he does it inefficiently.

Funny, because his career stats are nearly identical with a certain other players'.

25.0 ppg/ 6.4 rpg/ 3.1 apg/ 1.1 spg/ .5 bpg/ 45% fg/ 33% 3p/ 36.3 mpg

25.5 ppg/ 5.3 rpg/ 4.8 apg/ 1.5 spg/ .5 bpg/ 45% fg/ 33% 3p/ 36.6 mpg

I mean they're basically the same player, with the exception of rebounds and assists of course. I don't get how you one could label one of them an inefficient chucker who can only score in the clutch while the other gets praise for being a "killer". Yeah, one of them has championships, but it's not too much to say that neither the Nuggets nor Knicks have ever had a team as good as some of the other players' championship teams right? Both are great players, not trying to put down either of their legacies, just saying that many of the reputations some players have are pretty stupid once you really look at the stats.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:19 AM
The God of all PSD statistics, PER.

PER favors players that hoist a lot of shots. The guy that invented it was going for advanced stats like in baseball, but the wiki page will show you that there are more problems with PER, then things that are right. It's not acceptable in the face of all the real advanced stats (from BR) that bury him. There are other more advanced stats and AFAIK, none of them correlate well with PER.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:22 AM
Deron Williams is still ranked that high?! Mike Conley is as good as Melo and Wade?! Would anyone trade Melo straight up for Marc Gasol? Take Melo off the Knicks and put Gasol on it...the Knicks are nowhere near as good as they were this season...some of your other arguments I can see your point although I think it's a bit exaggerated...but this list..

DWill had a couple of rocky years, but he was back last year.

Why are we taking trades or subjective perceptions. I was asked who was better last year and I gave the answer.

Nobody asked me if these guys would have helped the Knicks more than Carmelo either.

Guppyfighter
07-18-2013, 07:22 AM
PER favors players that hoist a lot of shots. The guy that invented it was going for advanced stats, but knows nothing about how to design or execute anything in that realm. It's not acceptable in the face of all the real advanced stats that bury him.

The guy who made it doesn't use it. He's very smart and was hired by the Grizzlies.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:26 AM
Kobe
Durant
LeBron
Melo
throw in whoever you want...

Carmelo is elite, any objective person can see that. I'm not even a Knicks fan as you can tell.

Elite at what? Hosting up shots and not hitting them very well? Working to get to the line? Yeah, good. Assists and steals? Hunh? Gut wrenching D? What?

Carmelo fits in with a lot of players that ESPN/casual fans love:

Iverson, Wilkins, Carmelo - flash, scoring, attitude, scoring, missing shots, not making smart plays....

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:28 AM
it's really as simple as where were the Knicks before Melo and where would they be now without him? He may not be top 5 but the way his impact is downplayed by some is ridiculous...

I don't play down his impact. Nobody that dominates the ball that much, with such meager results has anything other but a huge impact. But huge doesn't mean it's positive. Carmelo is in a lot of my discussions. For me it's usually top 10 all time chuckers and guys that don't worry about anything but themselves. Charter member.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:32 AM
I2) Melo wins the scoring title and gets lambasted for...scoring? (I've never seen so much hate on PSD for a scoring title winner.

His teams would be better if he could cut out 6 FGA's a game on average, much better is if he could filter out all the stupid ones.

It's Iverson and Wilkins all over again. Acolades from the press and fans of flash, scant results (as in no) results on the titles front. Ever ask yourself why?

James and Bird could sure score, they could also give up the rock. Ever hear of a "triple threat"? Well Carmelo isn't it.

meloman1592
07-18-2013, 07:32 AM
Bashmelo.com

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:37 AM
Melo haters say never, but the truth is every year but his first 2 or 3

Based on what? He's never even cracked the top 10 once.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:40 AM
Um what?? I'll spot the rest but the bolded? Absolutely not. And Wade should be in the first list, not the "close."

Without any logical backing to your claims.... - go make your own list.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 07:41 AM
The guy who made it doesn't use it. He's very smart and was hired by the Grizzlies.

yeah I amended what I said, PER is an artifact of his past work.

thenaj17
07-18-2013, 07:56 AM
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

Not a chance Wade, Harden (2nd half was poor) were better than Melo and neither was Tony Parker

Knicks21
07-18-2013, 08:50 AM
Obviously better:

LeBron
Durant
Paul
Harden
Westbrook
Bryant
DWill
M Gasol
Curry


Close:

Blake, Conley, Hill, Wade, Carmelo

Cermelo obviously has skill, but it's how he uses it, or misuses it that makes me object to him.

I think your a great poster from time in the Patriot forum, but boy this post is way off. I just cant even think how one can provide a case for Hill and Conley, not even in the slightest of forms looking at it from 100% objectivity.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 08:51 AM
You know what's ironic? All the Knicks fans that wouldn't have written a line in this debate if Carmelo wasn't a Knick. Try drinking from the well of objectivity before you get involved in an emotion based response.

I wrote this in March:

Hate

Watered down teams
Mid season mid week games played with no interest or passion
Rampant emotionalism leading to ridiculous conclusions - like Celt fans overrating Rondo, or Knicks fans and Carmelo.
Brutal refs
inefficient shooters

Love

Deep teams
Fast breaks
Smart play
Conference Finals and Finals

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 09:00 AM
I think your a great poster from time in the Patriot forum, but boy this post is way off. I just cant even think how one can provide a case for Hill and Conley, not even in the slightest of forms looking at it from 100% objectivity.

Both play much better D than Carmelo - that counts you know. Hill in particular was more efficient offensively, and both played more minutes than Carmelo. If Carmelo played as much as Hill, he would have likely been more valuable then either. But he missed 15 games, are we supposed to ignore that?

Carmelo was also terrible in the playoffs. No excuses there, he sucked. Neither Hill or Conley were brilliant in the playoffs, but both were better.

So... read my 2 prior posts.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 09:36 AM
parker is better then melo u should eb banned from talkin basketball. Harden is better then Melo after one season as a superstar in which he still wasnt better then Melo and melo went further great cases u make
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 09:38 AM
lol let me guess love is better. Top 3 in mvp but he is not top 5
He hasn't been a top 5 player in any season he has played.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 09:43 AM
There is lots of Ny hate in the air can u smell that? How come no1 cared this much about Melo when he was in denver. You know what they say If u got this many haters you have to be doing something right :).

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 09:51 AM
lol let me guess love is better. Top 3 in mvp but he is not top 5

MVP voting does not correlate with quality of the players. It's prone to human weaknesses such as subjective belief, media centers getting more attention, and so forth.

He'll end up in the HOF, and that will be as worthless as Wilkins or Iverson being in the HOF - because there will be no title, just FGA and USG as his calling card. Pathetic.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 09:53 AM
if thats ur opnion everything is championships I guess melo would be a legend in ur eyes if he paired up with durant and aldridge and won rings
MVP voting does not correlate with quality of the players. It's prone to human weaknesses such as subjective belief, media centers getting more attention, and so forth.

He'll end up in the HOF, and that will be as worthless as Wilkins or Iverson being in the HOF - because there will be no title, just FGA and USG as his calling card. Pathetic.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 09:55 AM
There is lots of Ny hate in the air can u smell that? How come no1 cared this much about Melo when he was in denver. You know what they say If u got this many haters you have to be doing something right :).

/jk

How many of these Knick fans would be in this thread if he was in Denver? NY fans getting bent out of shape because their binky is so full of holes, and may scorn them for LAL next year.

I don't hate Carmelo because he's on the Knicks. I hate him because of the way he plays the game and feel pity for the ESPN led by the nose casual fans that actually think he's great.

Never a top 10 player in the NBA - not once.

You are welcome to him.

RLundi
07-18-2013, 09:56 AM
Without any logical backing to your claims.... - go make your own list.

And your only logical backing is WS. It looks like you literally just copied and pasted that list into your post. Way to be analytical. I guess you consider win shares end-all. I used a combo of WS48, WP and PER based solely on last season:

Definitely better than Melo:

LBJ
Durant
CP3
Duncan
Westbrook
Harden
Parker

Maybe better than Melo but probably not:

Kobe
Wade
Lopez
Griffin

No one else is close. Players like Howard and Rose might make a comeback and if so, I'd adjust the list but as of right now, I would place Melo as the 8th best player in the NBA.

EDIT: put Wade in the "maybe" column.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 10:05 AM
the only stats that really matyter he won 54 games with no 2nd option would have probably won more if he didnt miss 13 games
And your only logical backing is WS. It looks like you literally just copied and pasted that list into your post. Way to be analytical. I guess you consider win shares end-all. I used a combo of WS48, WP and PER:

Definitely better than Melo:

LBJ
Durant
CP3
Duncan
Westbrook
Harden
Parker
Wade

Maybe better than Melo but probably not:

Kobe
Lopez
Griffin

No one else is close.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 10:07 AM
my man i have forget more then u know about basketball.
/jk

How many of these Knick fans would be in this thread if he was in Denver? NY fans getting bent out of shape because their binky is so full of holes, and may scorn them for LAL next year.

I don't hate Carmelo because he's on the Knicks. I hate him because of the way he plays the game and feel pity for the ESPN led by the nose casual fans that actually think he's great.

Never a top 10 player in the NBA - not once.

You are welcome to him.

colinskik
07-18-2013, 10:20 AM
Ridiculous/laughable/false.

I thought you said you were going to leave this thread. Please, for everyone's sake, follow through on your own words. I just read through this entire thread and you've doubled back on several statements already. You're showing your true troll colors.

Yankeefan213
07-18-2013, 10:36 AM
Well he was 3rd in MVP voting last season so I would say he was top 5. However this season will be tougher as everyone at the top of the Eastern Conference has improved on paper. If you don't believe he was a top 5 player last season you didn't watch him play.

TheIlladelph16
07-18-2013, 10:46 AM
Everything being said in this thread has already said about Melo, so the outrage by some Knicks fans of the disrespect is a little weird. This has been the criticism about him his entire career, and last year (arguably his best year) some things got even worse. I don't care who your teammates are or if your a scorer... If you have a 35% USG there is no reason you have only 3 assists per game.

I think there are arguments to be made for a year or two being top 5, but he almost certainly hasn't been most of his career.

Chronz
07-18-2013, 10:51 AM
my man i have forget more then u know about basketball.

So you have forgotten almost all of NBA history and its players. But hey, you know more than him right?

Chronz
07-18-2013, 10:58 AM
And your only logical backing is WS. It looks like you literally just copied and pasted that list into your post. Way to be analytical. I guess you consider win shares end-all. I used a combo of WS48, WP and PER based solely on last season:
Best to use all tools available than rely on the limits of 1 single stat. Otherwise, we may as well put label the Rockets that won the chip as Drexlers team.

He hates chuckers tho, thats why he doesn't value shot creation, so its no surprise that he favors a stat that hinges on efficiency.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 11:11 AM
def
So you have forgotten almost all of NBA history and its players. But hey, you know more than him right?

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 11:25 AM
And your only logical backing is WS. It looks like you literally just copied and pasted that list into your post. Way to be analytical. I guess you consider win shares end-all. I used a combo of WS48, WP and PER based solely on last season:

nice try, ws is pretty good if said players all played for teams that won a similar amount of wins and played a similar amount of minutes. so no. PER? No thanks, last resort stat for me. WS48 I like but has similar issues comparing say a KG and TD career wise due to the difference in regular season wins. in cases like that I look at player WS % compared to teams.


Definitely better than Melo:

LBJ
Durant
CP3
Duncan
Westbrook
Harden
Parker

Not bad, puts 'Melo out of the top 5.


Maybe better than Melo but probably not:

Kobe
Wade
Lopez
Griffin

Lopez? Hmmm..

NYK|NYY
07-18-2013, 11:27 AM
So.Many.Melo.Threads. Should just sticky a Carmelo thread and be done with it.

3RDASYSTEM
07-18-2013, 11:38 AM
I don't play down his impact. Nobody that dominates the ball that much, with such meager results has anything other but a huge impact. But huge doesn't mean it's positive. Carmelo is in a lot of my discussions. For me it's usually top 10 all time chuckers and guys that don't worry about anything but themselves. Charter member.

name me your top 10 chuckers all time and supporting casts around those chuckers

then show me a chucker on a stacked contending team who shot them out of series and I bet its only 1 or 2 chuckers on your so called top 10 list

people swore JORDAN was a ballhog pre rings, no matter the pct or TS they called him a ballhog

so JORDAN shook the ballhog label when he started winning rings or was he a ballhog with rings?

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 12:06 PM
name me your top 10 chuckers all time and supporting casts around those chuckers

then show me a chucker on a stacked contending team who shot them out of series and I bet its only 1 or 2 chuckers on your so called top 10 list

people swore JORDAN was a ballhog pre rings, no matter the pct or TS they called him a ballhog

so JORDAN shook the ballhog label when he started winning rings or was he a ballhog with rings?

Chuckers to me are guys that shoot too much given their results and futhermore do not do most of the following: pass, rebound, play D

Jordan did play some killer D, and has good shooting percentages. I'm getting ready to fly to DC, so not sure I'll have for the exhaustive list at the moment. Wilkins and Iverson certainly rank very high for starters. How about World B., Aguirre, Stackhouse, Wiggle, Vince, Glenn Robinson - good enough.

IndyRealist
07-18-2013, 01:22 PM
The guy who made it doesn't use it. He's very smart and was hired by the Grizzlies.

Says a lot about PER, doesn't it? The only reason it is so widespread is because ESPN handcuffed themselves to something they didn't bother to vet, and made it so widespread that everyone who doesn't understand it quotes it like gospel.

koreancabbage
07-18-2013, 01:46 PM
my man i have forget more then u know about basketball.

you obviously know nothing about basketball when you say something like this:


the only stats that really matyter he won 54 games with no 2nd option would have probably won more if he didnt miss 13 games

LOL you know you're reaching when you quote the only stat that matters when Carmelo is considered a superstar or not is a team stat. LOL

you don't think coaching by Woodson contributed to their success? they had to grind out a lot of 50 something wins not by Melo but by team effort.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 05:06 PM
where was the grinding out when melo missed 13 games and they went 6-7 in those games?
you obviously know nothing about basketball when you say something like this:



LOL you know you're reaching when you quote the only stat that matters when Carmelo is considered a superstar or not is a team stat. LOL

you don't think coaching by Woodson contributed to their success? they had to grind out a lot of 50 something wins not by Melo but by team effort.

BklynKnicks3
07-18-2013, 05:08 PM
knicks actual record with melo is 48-21 thats almost as good any team in the nba and Melo has no 2nd option. If u stop lookin at PER and all these nosense stats Melo had a all time mvp season. The award has just become best player on best team
where was the grinding out when melo missed 13 games and they went 6-7 in those games?

koreancabbage
07-18-2013, 07:40 PM
where was the grinding out when melo missed 13 games and they went 6-7 in those games?

Melo was a reason why they had 50+ wins. but he wasn't the only answer. You also had JR Smith, Chandler. No JR smith, No Chandler, heck even no Felton - Knicks are a .500 team at best.

I can play this game too. the rest of the Knicks roster were as important to the Knicks as Melo is to them.


knicks actual record with melo is 48-21 thats almost as good any team in the nba and Melo has no 2nd option. If u stop lookin at PER and all these nosense stats Melo had a all time mvp season. The award has just become best player on best team

no, Lebron was the best player in all of basketball and has been the last few years. I'm not looking at per or any advanced stat. I mean, how can you say that Lebron did not have a great year? How can you say if not for Lebron, the Heat would not have the best record in the NBA? you say they would have 50 wins with no Lebron. Well the Knicks would be first if that was the case.

Sure Melo has an MVP type of season but not as great as the one Lebron had. 27 straight wins/best record in the NBA/ NBA first team/NBA all defensive 1st team are facts without even having to look at stats. like you said the only stat that is important: 66 wins.

Kashmir13579
07-18-2013, 08:08 PM
Not following you, are we supposed to ignore his playoff woes because his teammates also struggled? I understand that he had a huge offensive burden, and it was one that he expectedly collapsed under in the end You're supposed to acknowledge it is a 5 man game. Did you expect JR and 'Chandler to collapse under their roles too?


I didn't sidestep his teammates spiked shooting percentages from the outside. I made mention of the fact that it didn't occur.

And i said you were wrong.

Knicks21
07-18-2013, 08:14 PM
Both play much better D than Carmelo - that counts you know. Hill in particular was more efficient offensively, and both played more minutes than Carmelo. If Carmelo played as much as Hill, he would have likely been more valuable then either. But he missed 15 games, are we supposed to ignore that?

Carmelo was also terrible in the playoffs. No excuses there, he sucked. Neither Hill or Conley were brilliant in the playoffs, but both were better.

So... read my 2 prior posts.

Injury, the same excuses made for Wade.

Neither Hill or Conley carry the responsibility to a team that Melo does, so they cannot be compared because of their roles. Amare was very efficient, but he played like 15 minutes a game, so he cannot be compared with a Starter.

Simply put without Melo the Knicks would be nothing, so undermining him by comparing him to replaceable players such as Conley and Hill can be expected to rile some Knick fans.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 08:46 PM
You're supposed to acknowledge it is a 5 man game. Did you expect JR and 'Chandler to collapse under their roles too?

And i said you were wrong.

No, I acknowledge that the whole team sucked.

And no, he did not make any shooters better. Felton? Check his rookie season with Charlotte, check his last season with Charlotte. He was no better with New York. Kidd? Check his last decade. Novak? Career 43.3% 3pt shooter on 8.5 attempts per-36. 42.5% on 7.5 attempts per-36 this year in NY seems right in line to me. JR's irrelevant, but his 3pt shootings regressed since coming to NY.

Hating on the blatant holes in Melo's game was so much more well accepted when all the New Yorkers agreed with us 3 years ago.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 08:49 PM
It would actually be hilarious to see a Melo thread from 3+ years ago if anyone wants to crunch the search function.

bagwell368
07-18-2013, 08:49 PM
Injury, the same excuses made for Wade.

I wasn't making those.


Neither Hill or Conley carry the responsibility to a team that Melo does, so they cannot be compared because of their roles. Amare was very efficient, but he played like 15 minutes a game, so he cannot be compared with a Starter.

I never said anything about Amare. I did mention both of those players played more minutes. I wasn't even thinking about responsibilities. I was thinking about those players who performed at the highest levels this past season - and those two did. Sorry that it doesn't meet with the opinions you borrowed from others - or wherever you got them - but the truth is the truth.


Simply put without Melo the Knicks would be nothing, so undermining him by comparing him to replaceable players such as Conley and Hill can be expected to rile some Knick fans.

That's your argument. What you ought to do is come up with the average NBA players performance that gets paid that much money and put that person on the Knicks and compare the numbers. Carmelo might be better than some bottom of the barrel once great player crew at the bottom, but Carmelo is not great for his money or vs the top 5 players in the league. Fact.

A good number of my own teams fan base here hates me because I call Rondo for the dog he is - you think I should pay any mind to Knick fans? Please... you're wasting my time.

Kashmir13579
07-18-2013, 09:12 PM
No, I acknowledge that the whole team sucked.

You acknowledge it now.


And no, he did not make any shooters better. Felton? Check his rookie season with Charlotte, check his last season with Charlotte. He was no better with New York. Kidd? Check his last decade. Novak? Career 43.3% 3pt shooter on 8.5 attempts per-36. 42.5% on 7.5 attempts per-36 this year in NY seems right in line to me. JR's irrelevant, but his 3pt shootings regressed since coming to NY.
Shumpert and Prigs? If you had more than an outsider's perspective on the Knicks season, you would've mentioned them when addressing 3pt shooting.

Felton's Rookie season? lmfao. Thats convenient. Why not look at some of his woeful years from 3, or simply career average? Doesn't fit your agenda? Why look at individual numbers at all? Why keep ignoring a top offense and the best 3 point shooting team in the league? Does it sicken you to the core that Carmelo had a great year and his teammates thrived in the process?



Hating on the blatant holes in Melo's game was so much more well accepted when all the New Yorkers agreed with us 3 years ago.
You show your stripes with this comment.

tredigs
07-18-2013, 09:40 PM
You acknowledge it now.


Shumpert and Prigs? If you had more than an outsider's perspective on the Knicks season, you would've mentioned them when addressing 3pt shooting.

Felton's Rookie season? lmfao. Thats convenient. Why not look at some of his woeful years from 3, or simply career average? Doesn't fit your agenda? Why look at individual numbers at all? Why keep ignoring a top offense and the best 3 point shooting team in the league? Does it sicken you to the core that Carmelo had a great year and his teammates thrived in the process?


You show your stripes with this comment.

You are acting pathetic. Shumpert and Prigs? Why would I include two players who have never played in an NBA situation without Melo in NY? I included the players who played in different scenarios as a means for comparison. Sorry if that eluded you.

Felton - the erratic 3pt shooter that he is - has shown in multiple years that he has the capability to shoot 3's at the level he did this past season (which at 1.4 3pg at 36%, isn't anything to write home about). If that's one of the guys you're pointing to in an effort to prove that Melo makes 3pt shooters who they are, you're in a huge hole from the get go. "A career 33% shooter made 1-2 threes a night at 36% A % he's shown capable of multiple times in his career on crap teams that - by my Kashmirian logic - would've made it much tougher on him. Hold the presses!".

You don't seem to understand that this was a very good 3pt shooting team because they had very good 3pt shooters, not because Melo made them that way. I just clicked through half the game logs of games that Melo didn't play in, and other than the expected drop in overall offense with JR turning into a #1 and having a rookie as filler, the 3pt shooting and role players showed no regression by the #'s. It's a dead point.

Again with the "pains" thing. It's Melo, it's the Knicks. There's been very few occasions where these two entities have caused pain for people other than their own fans.

Knicks21
07-18-2013, 10:10 PM
I wasn't making those.



I never said anything about Amare. I did mention both of those players played more minutes. I wasn't even thinking about responsibilities. I was thinking about those players who performed at the highest levels this past season - and those two did. Sorry that it doesn't meet with the opinions you borrowed from others - or wherever you got them - but the truth is the truth.



That's your argument. What you ought to do is come up with the average NBA players performance that gets paid that much money and put that person on the Knicks and compare the numbers. Carmelo might be better than some bottom of the barrel once great player crew at the bottom, but Carmelo is not great for his money or vs the top 5 players in the league. Fact.

A good number of my own teams fan base here hates me because I call Rondo for the dog he is - you think I should pay any mind to Knick fans? Please... you're wasting my time.

I shouldnt even have to go into advanced statistics because it is so blatantly obvious that Melo is better than Hill and Conley but I will. Melo trumps Hill and Conley in all relevant statistics, but again with advanced statistics, they needed to be taken into context. DWS arent that good for Melo because he is playing on a mediocre defensive team for example.

And pay is irrelevant, Lebron doesnt pay income tax. The argument wasnt is Melo good value for money, and it never will be because of inconsistencies like the Heat and Magic.

I never said you mentioned Amare, i simply brought it up to re affirm my argument, this being that statistics need to be taken into context for guys like Amare, Hill, Conley, Blatche etc.

Kashmir13579
07-18-2013, 10:35 PM
You are acting pathetic. Shumpert and Prigs? Why would I include two players who have never played in an NBA situation without Melo in NY? I included the players who played in different scenarios as a means for comparison. Sorry if that eluded you.
You included the players that help your agenda. Prigs and Shumpert's 3pt shooting percentages prior to this year are well documented. (albeit closer to the rim and against inferior non-NBA defenders)

Felton - the erratic 3pt shooter that he is - has shown in multiple years that he has the capability to shoot 3's at the level he did this past season (which at 1.4 3pg at 36%, isn't anything to write home about). If that's one of the guys you're pointing to in an effort to prove that Melo makes 3pt shooters who they are, you're in a huge hole from the get go. "A career 33% shooter made 1-2 threes a night at 36% A % he's shown capable of multiple times in his career on crap teams that - by my Kashmirian logic - would've made it much tougher on him. Hold the presses!". Your acting as if Felton is the crux of my argument and not merely a piece that effortlessly fits. :laugh2:


You don't seem to understand that this was a very good 3pt shooting team because they had very good 3pt shooters, not because Melo made them that way. I just clicked through half the game logs of games that Melo didn't play in, and other than the expected drop in overall offense with JR turning into a #1 and having a rookie as filler, the 3pt shooting and role players showed no regression by the #'s. It's a dead point.
In other words you offhandedly skimmed Basketball-reference again.

Again with the "pains" thing. It's Melo, it's the Knicks. There's been very few occasions where these two entities have caused pain for people other than their own fans
Are you just trying to sound cool?

RLundi
07-18-2013, 10:53 PM
nice try, ws is pretty good if said players all played for teams that won a similar amount of wins and played a similar amount of minutes. so no. PER? No thanks, last resort stat for me. WS48 I like but has similar issues comparing say a KG and TD career wise due to the difference in regular season wins. in cases like that I look at player WS % compared to teams.



Not bad, puts 'Melo out of the top 5.



Lopez? Hmmm..

So what did you use to come up with that list? Don't say it is coincidental that it mirrored exactly the rankings of win shares.

There are discrepancies with every single statistic. That's why it's close-minded to use just one, which again, it looks like you did with win shares. If not, then please provide the justification you used.

Melo is a top 10 player, I don't have a problem admitting that. And yes, Brook Lopez had a stellar season, very comparable in advanced statistics to Melo. Only reason I don't give him the nod because I'd like to see some sustained longevity.

IndyRealist
07-19-2013, 02:39 AM
I shouldnt even have to go into advanced statistics because it is so blatantly obvious that Melo is better than Hill and Conley but I will. Melo trumps Hill and Conley in all relevant statistics, but again with advanced statistics, they needed to be taken into context. DWS arent that good for Melo because he is playing on a mediocre defensive team for example.

And pay is irrelevant, Lebron doesnt pay income tax. The argument wasnt is Melo good value for money, and it never will be because of inconsistencies like the Heat and Magic.

I never said you mentioned Amare, i simply brought it up to re affirm my argument, this being that statistics need to be taken into context for guys like Amare, Hill, Conley, Blatche etc.

I'm not really in this argument, I just wanted to clarify what statistics you're quoting. Because you didn't list any. You simply stated that Melo was better, without actually citing any numbers. WP, WS, RAPM, Four Factors? I went back to page 8 and didn't see you quote any stats, and I'm curious which ones show that Melo is better.

bagwell368
07-19-2013, 05:26 AM
So what did you use to come up with that list? Don't say it is coincidental that it mirrored exactly the rankings of win shares.

The list yes, the order - no.


There are discrepancies with every single statistic. That's why it's close-minded to use just one, which again, it looks like you did with win shares. If not, then please provide the justification you used.

I used 3 different measures - 2 objective, 1 subjective.


Melo is a top 10 player, I don't have a problem admitting that.

The original question was how many seasons was Carmelo top 5 - my answer is zero. Yours? As for top 10, he was a top 10 offensive player last year, but his defense, and games missed, and playoff performance tosses him out of the top 10 last year.

Knicks21
07-19-2013, 05:46 AM
I'm not really in this argument, I just wanted to clarify what statistics you're quoting. Because you didn't list any. You simply stated that Melo was better, without actually citing any numbers. WP, WS, RAPM, Four Factors? I went back to page 8 and didn't see you quote any stats, and I'm curious which ones show that Melo is better.

PER and TS% are relevant statistics for this comparison. Win Shares are iffy, DWS is very much a team statistic, Melo played on a mediocre defensive team whilst conley and hill both played on good if not great defensive teams.

There are only so many statistics I can use that are in context with the comparison.

Its where stats are flawed, Hill is better than Kyrie and D Will in RAPM, but he is nowhere near the talent of either. Just because somebody is efficient in their role, and in Hills case the 4th option at best, doesnt mean that the better player.

IndyRealist
07-19-2013, 06:07 AM
PER and TS% are relevant statistics for this comparison. Win Shares are iffy, DWS is very much a team statistic, Melo played on a mediocre defensive team whilst conley and hill both played on good if not great defensive teams.

There are only so many statistics I can use that are in context with the comparison.

Its where stats are flawed, Hill is better than Kyrie and D Will in RAPM, but he is nowhere near the talent of either. Just because somebody is efficient in their role, and in Hills case the 4th option at best, doesnt mean that the better player.

PER is -never- a relevant statistic ;)

as I quote and showed in this thread (with Game Score, the simplified version of PER that approximates it with 99% accuracy).

There are plenty of people arguing both sides, so I won't bother. Just wanted clarification so I can follow the conversation.

smood999
07-19-2013, 06:15 AM
Chuckers to me are guys that shoot too much given their results and futhermore do not do most of the following: pass, rebound, play D

Jordan did play some killer D, and has good shooting percentages. I'm getting ready to fly to DC, so not sure I'll have for the exhaustive list at the moment. Wilkins and Iverson certainly rank very high for starters. How about World B., Aguirre, Stackhouse, Wiggle, Vince, Glenn Robinson - good enough.

I think he was referring to more of the supporting cast around certain players that have this label and wonder if they were paired with better players if they would still play in the same fashion...

For example, Kobe had Shaq...but who did Iverson have? What did Kobe become between the Shaq yrs and the Bynum/Gasol years? Every player's situation is not equal. A player like Westbrook you can see it's in his DNA to "chuck"....but having Durant keeps him in check...we don't know this for a fact, but judging by the way a player like Westbrook plays if he were on a team that he was forced to "carry" he would enter the chucking category for you. His teammates would dictate his style of play...

We saw what Marbury could've been when he was with Garnett...as soon as he was off by himself and never again paired with a player that caliber, you see the difference in his game...

Why is Melo's game so different in Olympic play? He trusts his teammates and doesn't feel like he has to shoulder the load...I really think it's that simple...His best seasons are when he had Iverson, Billups and this current Knicks team with players who didn't have one player he trusted but a group of players he trusted...what happened in the playoffs? Teammates weren't nearly as productive so he resorted to shooting even more...none of this is by coincidence...yes it's a flaw and it's a flaw that a lot of players have...I think it can be controlled by being in a certain team environment

bagwell368
07-19-2013, 06:24 AM
I think he was referring to more of the supporting cast around certain players that have this label and wonder if they were paired with better players if they would still play in the same fashion...

For example, Kobe had Shaq...but who did Iverson have? What did Kobe become between the Shaq yrs and the Bynum/Gasol years? Every player's situation is not equal. A player like Westbrook you can see it's in his DNA to "chuck"....but having Durant keeps him in check...we don't know this for a fact, but judging by the way a player like Westbrook plays if he were on a team that he was forced to "carry" he would enter the chucking category for you. His teammates would dictate his style of play...

We saw what Marbury could've been when he was with Garnett...as soon as he was off by himself and never again paired with a player that caliber, you see the difference in his game...

Why is Melo's game so different in Olympic play? He trusts his teammates and doesn't feel like he has to shoulder the load...I really think it's that simple...His best seasons are when he had Iverson, Billups and this current Knicks team with players who didn't have one player he trusted but a group of players he trusted...what happened in the playoffs? Teammates weren't nearly as productive so he resorted to shooting even more...none of this is by coincidence...yes it's a flaw and it's a flaw that a lot of players have...I think it can be controlled by being in a certain team environment

A good post. Still Iverson would have been better as well as his team if he had cut back 5 of his FGA a game and passed instead. Carmelo isn't quite as lost as Iverson was, but another APG and 2 RPG more w/ 4 less FGA wouldn't be asking too much would it?

ldawg
07-19-2013, 06:29 AM
2014 when he becomes a Laker

RLundi
07-19-2013, 09:50 AM
The list yes, the order - no.



I used 3 different measures - 2 objective, 1 subjective.



The original question was how many seasons was Carmelo top 5 - my answer is zero. Yours? As for top 10, he was a top 10 offensive player last year, but his defense, and games missed, and playoff performance tosses him out of the top 10 last year.

Last year was his best season and he still doesn't crack top 5 for me. So I agree, he has probably never been top 5. I'd have to go back and check though.

I disagree about Melo not being top 10 last season solely because of his defense. Subjectively, I think he is a top offensive player in the NBA. He was top 10 in OWS. I don't think his defense pushes him out. It's an offense-driven league. Defense gets pushed to the side sometimes, as bad as it sounds. It's enough to relegate him to non-elite status. But not top 10? After last season, I don't think you'll find too many people who agree with that.

I'm curious if you think Kobe was a top 10 player last season. Better yet, who was in your top 10?

Becks2307
07-19-2013, 10:10 AM
A good post. Still Iverson would have been better as well as his team if he had cut back 5 of his FGA a game and passed instead. Carmelo isn't quite as lost as Iverson was, but another APG and 2 RPG more w/ 4 less FGA wouldn't be asking too much would it?

Carmelo Anthony averages 7 boards a game - you want him to average 9? thats asking a bit much. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I don't expect Melo to average 9 boards a game nor do I want/require him too, hell even Lebron has never averaged 9 boards a game.

And arbitrarily throwing out "melo needs to get another assist per game" makes no sense. He was a team player last season, just because he didn't get actual assists (from the PF position mind you and on a team with a ton of Point Guards) didn't mean he was a ballhog. Whats Melo supposed to do if he passes and the ball swings around the perimeter? He doesn't get an assist there. But it's not a coincidence that we broke the NBA record for 3 pters ,Melo had a huge role to play in all the open looks we got.

smood999
07-19-2013, 01:57 PM
A good post. Still Iverson would have been better as well as his team if he had cut back 5 of his FGA a game and passed instead. Carmelo isn't quite as lost as Iverson was, but another APG and 2 RPG more w/ 4 less FGA wouldn't be asking too much would it?

I can agree with that...there are plenty games win or lose where I end up feeling that he forced way too much. 4th quarter of games when no one else on the team seems to have it make me cringe cause I know he will take it into his own hands (unless he's hot of course). You do understand the one perspective that I pointed out...I'll try another. Both the Nuggets and Knicks before his arrival were bottom feeders and he changed both franchises...we can argue about the amount of help he had all day but he is the one constant. This is completely off topic from the OP, cause I actually don't think he's been a top 5 player other than maybe this season and the season where Denver made the WCF (maybe)...just feel like his flaws and his overall impact on the game are being exaggerated (flaws) or downplayed (impact) especially when Deron Williams was brought into it. I tried staying out of it, but when i saw that name, it made me jump in.

smood999
07-19-2013, 01:59 PM
Carmelo Anthony averages 7 boards a game - you want him to average 9? thats asking a bit much. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I don't expect Melo to average 9 boards a game nor do I want/require him too, hell even Lebron has never averaged 9 boards a game.

And arbitrarily throwing out "melo needs to get another assist per game" makes no sense. He was a team player last season, just because he didn't get actual assists (from the PF position mind you and on a team with a ton of Point Guards) didn't mean he was a ballhog. Whats Melo supposed to do if he passes and the ball swings around the perimeter? He doesn't get an assist there. But it's not a coincidence that we broke the NBA record for 3 pters ,Melo had a huge role to play in all the open looks we got.

I think he's a good enough rebounder for a 3...but the other side to that is a lot of his rebounds come from his own misses....I think he's an underrated passer cause he does get a whole lot of hockey assists, unfortunately there's no way to show that...I'll even say he passed the ball better this season than other seasons where he avg less shots and more assists...

JordansBulls
07-19-2013, 03:50 PM
2014 when he becomes a Laker

You mean a Bull :)

LegendsNvrDie23
07-19-2013, 04:19 PM
You mean a Bull :):cheers:

ohreally
07-19-2013, 11:41 PM
2002-2003

DDynO
07-20-2013, 11:42 AM
He has never been a top 5 player IMO.

lamzoka
07-20-2013, 12:44 PM
lebron
durant
cp3
parker
kobe
wade
harden

were better than melo last year imo.

:laugh:

koreancabbage
07-20-2013, 03:12 PM
:laugh:

even though I agree with you, there are at least 3-4 players in the same range as Melo as having a place in the top 5 last year. I would say Melo was better than Kobe overall last year.

being the best or a list of players are usually a consensus of the majority of people that people would accept. Melo is on the fringe of being a sure fire top 5 in all likelihood. IMO he was #5 or #6.

Goose17
07-20-2013, 05:00 PM
None.

He never has been and probably never will be a top 5 player.

MELO 15
07-20-2013, 05:33 PM
None.

He never has been and probably never will be a top 5 player.

It's funny, because with free agency talk for next year, they have Melo as the most prized free agent behind LeBron, and wade is on that list with bosh and love right along with Kyrie ..! I wonder why? Some of these guys are idiots, yes I am a big Melo fan, but if someone were to ask me who I would take LeBron or Melo? My answer would be LeBron, because I'm not stupid. I don't let my emotions cloud my judgement! But there is a lot of hate with Melo that they won't give credit where it's do . Ask the heat fan if they'd do a trade for Felton and Melo for bosh and wade with LeBron on that team? 99 percent of the heart fans would do that trade, and for those that say they wouldn't would be doing it out of pure hate for Melo! Pat riely would do that trade 10 times out of 10! If LeBron and Melo played for the Lakers, they'd probably be the best duo in the game, and there expectations of winning a chip would be higher than that of the heart right now! I wonder why?

JordansBulls
07-21-2013, 04:37 PM
None.

He never has been and probably never will be a top 5 player.

What makes you say this?

Chronz
07-21-2013, 05:00 PM
PER is -never- a relevant statistic ;)

as I quote and showed in this thread (with Game Score, the simplified version of PER that approximates it with 99% accuracy).

There are plenty of people arguing both sides, so I won't bother. Just wanted clarification so I can follow the conversation.

Just curious, where does WP rank Melo last year?

b@llhog24
07-21-2013, 08:08 PM
Probably never. Two at the most, albeit weak arguments in his favor.

IndyRealist
07-21-2013, 10:14 PM
Just curious, where does WP rank Melo last year?

0.44 WP48 if he's a PF, 0.114 at SF. At PF he's below average at rebounds, blocks, steals, and 2pt FG%. His WP48 was insane to start the year, but as his 3pt shooting came back down to more normal levels so did his WP48. 2010 Melo and 2012 Melo were pretty similar, statistically. In terms of overall production he was 38th among PFs for the year, likely because he costs you so many blocks/steals/rebounds at that position.

ohreally
07-21-2013, 10:41 PM
even though I agree with you, there are at least 3-4 players in the same range as Melo as having a place in the top 5 last year. I would say Melo was better than Kobe overall last year.

being the best or a list of players are usually a consensus of the majority of people that people would accept. Melo is on the fringe of being a sure fire top 5 in all likelihood. IMO he was #5 or #6.

Kobe had linear 30% of available assists last year. I don't see anything saying Melo was better than Kobe last year.

JordansBulls
07-25-2013, 08:47 AM
Last year Melo was

#4 in PER.
#1 in scoring
#3 in MVP voting

bagwell368
07-25-2013, 09:07 AM
It's funny, because with free agency talk for next year, they have Melo as the most prized free agent behind LeBron, and wade is on that list with bosh and love right along with Kyrie ..! I wonder why?

Ratings? Availability?

JordansBulls
07-29-2013, 07:57 PM
Ratings? Availability?

Melo is more in his prime.

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 12:32 PM
Last year Melo was

#4 in PER.
#1 in scoring
#3 in MVP voting

1st in USG (means holding the ball more than anyone else)
14th in WS
18th in WS48
61st in TOV% (very hideous considering the USG)
91st ORtg
104th TS% (meh shooter)
166th in eFG% (wow, forget meh, what an inefficient pig he is)
185th TReb% (not much help there)
239th BLK% (no help...)
321st in DRtg
369th STL% (haH haH)

I was right at the top, never been top 5, never will be. Subtract all the Knick fans that couldn't care less about him before getting him, and what you have is ego boys stroking it, and objective fans hammering him for being the no conscience chucker he is.

GMEN4EVER
08-01-2013, 12:58 PM
He's never been a top 5 player. He'll never be a top 5 player. He has yet to put forth a top ten season either, and is unlikely to ever be a top ten player.

Now if you want to say he's a top 5 scorer fine, i'd give him that. But he's mediocre as a passer, shoots a low percentage, doesn't rebound well enough to play the 4, and is god awful on defense, regardless of where you play him. Only reason he got away with playing the 4 last year was because the league doesn't have as many quality true big men as it used to have (thanks to the AAU).

There's at least 20 players in the league that as a knicks fan i'd trade him for. An incredible scoring talent, but he isn't good at anything else and is down right pathetic in some parts of the game.

NYJ - NYY
08-01-2013, 01:16 PM
1st in USG (means holding the ball more than anyone else)
14th in WS
18th in WS48
61st in TOV% (very hideous considering the USG)
91st ORtg
104th TS% (meh shooter)
166th in eFG% (wow, forget meh, what an inefficient pig he is)
185th TReb% (not much help there)
239th BLK% (no help...)
321st in DRtg
369th STL% (haH haH)

I was right at the top, never been top 5, never will be. Subtract all the Knick fans that couldn't care less about him before getting him, and what you have is ego boys stroking it, and objective fans hammering him for being the no conscience chucker he is.

and after all that....people are still making tons of threads will be a knick will he opt out blah blah blah...lotta talk about a player that seems to be nothing more than "average at best" in some peoples ideas (not mad at it, everyone has their own) but youd think this guy wouldnt get this type of attention considering hes that bad

all said in jest and sarcasm... melos been my dude since 'cuse and nothing of what you say will deter my opinion or fan hood towards him or my team... just wanted to point out that if people really feel hes not that good... stop with the threads and post about him...

JordansBulls
08-01-2013, 08:15 PM
1st in USG (means holding the ball more than anyone else)
14th in WS
18th in WS48
61st in TOV% (very hideous considering the USG)
91st ORtg
104th TS% (meh shooter)
166th in eFG% (wow, forget meh, what an inefficient pig he is)
185th TReb% (not much help there)
239th BLK% (no help...)
321st in DRtg
369th STL% (haH haH)

I was right at the top, never been top 5, never will be. Subtract all the Knick fans that couldn't care less about him before getting him, and what you have is ego boys stroking it, and objective fans hammering him for being the no conscience chucker he is.

Aren't the other 3 categories more important?

jimm120
08-01-2013, 08:25 PM
I hate this topic. really.

So, you're blaming Melo for not being a top 5 player?

He's been a top 10 player consistently throughout the years. Yes, he does have top 5 talent and its only been shown 2 times maybe (and during spurts). But still, top 10

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 09:05 PM
Aren't the other 3 categories more important?

Nope.

MVP is hugely influenced by players market and other subjective factors - it's highly suspect. Someone wins six in a row, I'm willing to believe it might be deserved.

Inefficient scoring is harmful, sometimes very harmful. I'd think much more of Carmelo if he scored 6 PPG less with a .040 higher FG% and an additional 1.5 RPG and 1.75 APG more. That would be a more complete player that did more to help his team win that wasn't #1 in NBA scoring.

PER is a screwed up stat, all but ignored by the guy that invented it, and very much dissed by serious stat heads, WTF kind of stat can it be if missed FGA actually helps drive the number up? A well meant stat from a then immature mind that's become a a beast with more time and experience.

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 09:08 PM
I hate this topic. really.

So, you're blaming Melo for not being a top 5 player?

He's been a top 10 player consistently throughout the years. Yes, he does have top 5 talent and its only been shown 2 times maybe (and during spurts). But still, top 10

Take it up with the originator of the thread. If had said top 10, I might have to agree he's done it twice, but I know w/o looking at any stats that he hasn't ever been top 5. Not my fault, I'm just reporting what I know as fact. Start your own thread.

bagwell368
08-01-2013, 09:15 PM
and after all that....people are still making tons of threads will be a knick will he opt out blah blah blah...lotta talk about a player that seems to be nothing more than "average at best" in some peoples ideas (not mad at it, everyone has their own) but youd think this guy wouldnt get this type of attention considering hes that bad

It's not my fault most NBA fans are sheep. 30 years ago, fans of the NBA actually knew the game. They didn't watch ESPN and think 75% of the game is dunks, blocks, steals, and 3's. Owners are smart enough to gravitate to guys that score, after all most fans don't know good D if it bikt them in the rear.


all said in jest and sarcasm... melos been my dude since 'cuse and nothing of what you say will deter my opinion or fan hood towards him or my team... just wanted to point out that if people really feel hes not that good... stop with the threads and post about him...

Hey, good for you, you want to have a "dude" that's an inefficient swine/selfish pig - go for it. It's not my thread - BUT - if it's your opinion on your "dude" and it can't be changed, than nobody is going to get me to shut up on garbage like Carmelo and Iverson. I'm not breaking PSD rules. Put me on ignore if you can't take it.

Bubba313
08-01-2013, 09:20 PM
Nope.

MVP is hugely influenced by players market and other subjective factors - it's highly suspect. Someone wins six in a row, I'm willing to believe it might be deserved.

Inefficient scoring is harmful, sometimes very harmful. I'd think much more of Carmelo if he scored 6 PPG less with a .040 higher FG% and an additional 1.5 RPG and 1.75 APG more. That would be a more complete player that did more to help his team win that wasn't #1 in NBA scoring.

PER is a screwed up stat, all but ignored by the guy that invented it, and very much dissed by serious stat heads, WTF kind of stat can it be if missed FGA actually helps drive the number up? A well meant stat from a then immature mind that's become a a beast with more time and experience.

It's ironic that you criticize PER for increasing with FGA (a valid criticism) when you rely solely on efficiency statistics which will inevitably decrease the more a team relies on the individual.

Yes, Melo had the highest usage rate, but that is because we needed him to have the ball in his hands. It doesn't change the fact we had a Top 5 offense throughout the year, and with a little more help, Melo with a torn labrum would have been playing the Heat in the ECF.

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 07:31 AM
It's ironic that you criticize PER for increasing with FGA (a valid criticism) when you rely solely on efficiency statistics which will inevitably decrease the more a team relies on the individual.

Funny that you see no irony in what you wrote - if the efficiency has a peak (due to D of the other team, exhaustion of the shooter, etc.) than stop shooting so much. Ipso facto.

Did you ever play? How did you feel when the "star" player is taking 27.2% of his teams shots in only 37/48 MPG. You think you're going to hustle and fill the lanes as much when he has the ball if he took 14 shots per game instead of 22.2, and distributed the ball twice as much as he does now? You bet you would hustle more and stop pulling up and getting back on D.


Yes, Melo had the highest usage rate, but that is because we needed him to have the ball in his hands. It doesn't change the fact we had a Top 5 offense throughout the year, and with a little more help, Melo with a torn labrum would have been playing the Heat in the ECF.

"We" - so another fan by virtue of place of birth, and new home for Carmelo. How unique.

Melo's offense is NOT equal to the Knicks offense. Chandler was a beast in terms of efficiency. So was Novak, Pablo, Kidd, and Martin - all ahead of Carmelo.

The Knicks were 7th in SRS in the regular season, that's a team that shouldn't make it to a Conference Final and didn't.

Knicks were 26th in TRB (a weakness of Carmelo).

Knicks were 30th in Assists per game (a major weakness of Carmelo).

Knicks were 30th in blocks (ditto)

Knicks were 11th in PPG

The Knicks were not special (fans hungry for a title more recent than Clyde, and the ever present, ever fervid NY media - to the contrary) and Carmelo was not a top 5 player.

Can we hear from some non NYK fans on how great Carmelo is? The stench of homerism wafts very strong in this thread.

NYJ - NYY
08-02-2013, 12:42 PM
It's not my fault most NBA fans are sheep. 30 years ago, fans of the NBA actually knew the game. They didn't watch ESPN and think 75% of the game is dunks, blocks, steals, and 3's. Owners are smart enough to gravitate to guys that score, after all most fans don't know good D if it bikt them in the rear.



Hey, good for you, you want to have a "dude" that's an inefficient swine/selfish pig - go for it. It's not my thread - BUT - if it's your opinion on your "dude" and it can't be changed, than nobody is going to get me to shut up on garbage like Carmelo and Iverson. I'm not breaking PSD rules. Put me on ignore if you can't take it.

guy i dont give a **** what you gotta say lol everyone is entitled to their opinion... you just sound like melo ****ed your girl and she topped him off ... he has no baring on your life why take so much time on his?

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 01:14 PM
guy i dont give a **** what you gotta say lol everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Yet here you are writing... and not with any facts or observations just a childish insult. How original.


you just sound like melo ****ed your girl and she topped him off ... he has no baring on your life why take so much time on his?

Because his style of play bothers me. My background is as a fan/player/coach. I never liked nor tolerated guys like him, AI, and Wilkins. Ball hogging losers. Oh yeah, I'm retired, so my time is my own.

NYKnicks4511
08-02-2013, 01:42 PM
Yet here you are writing... and not with any facts or observations just a childish insult. How original.



Because his style of play bothers me. My background is as a fan/player/coach. I never liked nor tolerated guys like him, AI, and Wilkins. Ball hogging losers. Oh yeah, I'm retired, so my time is my own.

I was too young to remember Dominique, but I will defend AI (even as a Knicks fan). The guy had questionable decision making off the court and in his interviews, but on the court he was a consummate team player. Do you honestly think that Iverson was a 'loser' for taking that god awful '01 76ers team to the NBA Finals, and taking Game 1 from one of the best teams we've seen in the past few decades? Hell, Carmelo Anthony has never missed the playoffs in his career. He single-handedly took the Knicks as far as they did this year, WITH a torn labrum and horrible help from his teammates.

I understand your perspective, it's very 'old school' and reminds me of what my father thinks about AI and Melo (he calls them chuckers). But honestly, I'd rather let Melo take 30 shots a game than watch us live and die by the three ball, or watch Felton brick jumpers, or J.R. take ballerina fadeaways. A contested shot from Melo is still a higher percentage look than say, a Tyson Chandler contested layup under the basket.

In response to the thread, I'd say that Melo has been a Top 5 player once or twice in his career, but that speaks more to the competition than about him. However there is no denying that he has been a top 10 player perennially.

Bubba313
08-02-2013, 02:07 PM
Funny that you see no irony in what you wrote - if the efficiency has a peak (due to D of the other team, exhaustion of the shooter, etc.) than stop shooting so much. Ipso facto.

Did you ever play? How did you feel when the "star" player is taking 27.2% of his teams shots in only 37/48 MPG. You think you're going to hustle and fill the lanes as much when he has the ball if he took 14 shots per game instead of 22.2, and distributed the ball twice as much as he does now? You bet you would hustle more and stop pulling up and getting back on D.



"We" - so another fan by virtue of place of birth, and new home for Carmelo. How unique.

Melo's offense is NOT equal to the Knicks offense. Chandler was a beast in terms of efficiency. So was Novak, Pablo, Kidd, and Martin - all ahead of Carmelo.

The Knicks were 7th in SRS in the regular season, that's a team that shouldn't make it to a Conference Final and didn't.

Knicks were 26th in TRB (a weakness of Carmelo).

Knicks were 30th in Assists per game (a major weakness of Carmelo).

Knicks were 30th in blocks (ditto)

Knicks were 11th in PPG

The Knicks were not special (fans hungry for a title more recent than Clyde, and the ever present, ever fervid NY media - to the contrary) and Carmelo was not a top 5 player.

Can we hear from some non NYK fans on how great Carmelo is? The stench of homerism wafts very strong in this thread.

Yes.

Why do I have to be unique? I'm a die hard Knick fan because of my Dad. Absolutely no point to this comment other than to show your agenda.

This is the problem with you stat nerds, although I wouldn't even call you one. You're more of a troll considering you only like to use stats that favor you as evidenced by your use of PPG among all the other efficiency stats you use. But that is neither here nor there.

You say the Knicks' offense is efficient because of players like Novak, Kidd, Pablo, Tyson, K-Mart. You fail to consider who creates these efficient opportunities to score or why they even exist in the first place.

Put those 5 players on the court at the same time and see what happens. Their scoring (if they even do score) would not be efficient. It would be nonexistent. Keep in mind that is perfectly constructed 1-5 lineup.

So why are these players efficient? Simply, by putting Carmelo on the floor. Carmelo's ability to score and get to the hoop at will creates these opportunities. Why do I care if he holds the ball when good things happen when it is in his hands? Do I care if he doesn't record an assist when the player he passes to makes a smart extra pass for a wide open 3?

But it's clear you hate Carmelo so this will be my last post in this thread.

Bostonjorge
08-02-2013, 02:24 PM
Melo is a gear player in this league. He had to be a top 5 player at least once. I would say every year he is in the top 6 players. I believe he's is equal to Durant. Both great score and both same defenders in my opinion. Also melo played James better and steps up more when they go head to head.

FOXHOUND
08-02-2013, 03:25 PM
1st in USG (means holding the ball more than anyone else)
14th in WS
18th in WS48
61st in TOV% (very hideous considering the USG)
91st ORtg
104th TS% (meh shooter)
166th in eFG% (wow, forget meh, what an inefficient pig he is)
185th TReb% (not much help there)
239th BLK% (no help...)
321st in DRtg
369th STL% (haH haH)

I was right at the top, never been top 5, never will be. Subtract all the Knick fans that couldn't care less about him before getting him, and what you have is ego boys stroking it, and objective fans hammering him for being the no conscience chucker he is.

Sorry, but where are you getting most of these numbers?

Melo had a TO% of 9.2 last season, that's supposed to be "very hideous"? Despite leading the NBA in USG% he wasn't even in the top 20 in turnovers, and averaged just 2.6 TO per game. When you say he was 61st in TO%, why do you try to make it sound like that's a bad number? Know who led the NBA in TO% amongst qualified players? Steve Novak, by a lanslide with just 2.5%. Are you really going to try and compare the TO% of a star like Carmelo Anthony to the role players of the world who barely touch the ball? Why not list other notable players on that list,

Carmelo Anthony - 61st in TO%, 35.6 USG% 1st
LeBron James - 196th in TO%, 30.2 USG% 5th
Russel Westbrook - 242nd in TO%, 32.8 USG% 2nd
Dwayne Wade - 243rd in TO%, 29.5 USG%, 7th
Kobe Bryant - 247th in TO%, 31.9 USG% 3rd
Kevin Durant - 268th in TO%, 29.8 USG% 6th
James Harden - 316th in TO%, 29.0 USG% 9th

You're right, it's such a hideous turnover rate. You do the ranking by overall, which includes players who have played 3 games. In that case Melo was 2nd in USG%, behind Henry Sims and his 2 GP.

The only thing you proved with your post is that you have a horrendous agenda, or don't understand the numbers you are trying to portray in a bad light. Carmelo Anthony being 61st in TO% overall, despite having the "2nd" highest USG% rate in the NBA is actually outstanding.

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 04:34 PM
but I will defend AI (even as a Knicks fan). The guy had questionable decision making off the court and in his interviews, but on the court he was a consummate team player.

Rubbish.


Do you honestly think that Iverson was a 'loser' for taking that god awful '01 76ers team to the NBA Finals, and taking Game 1 from one of the best teams we've seen in the past few decades? Hell, Carmelo Anthony has never missed the playoffs in his career. He single-handedly took the Knicks as far as they did this year, WITH a torn labrum and horrible help from his teammates.

AI's team lost 4 games straight in the Finals after the first game. AI monopolized the ball so much in his career (worse than Carmelo) that he made it easier for defenses and made it harder for his teams to have any offensive cohesion or teamwork. He was garbage.


I understand your perspective, it's very 'old school' and reminds me of what my father thinks about AI and Melo (he calls them chuckers).

Old school? At least I know what it takes to win. People have actually argued on PSD that AI should get credit for being short and for being a style trend setter. What nonsense.


But honestly, I'd rather let Melo take 30 shots a game than watch us live and die by the three ball, or watch Felton brick jumpers, or J.R. take ballerina fadeaways. A contested shot from Melo is still a higher percentage look than say, a Tyson Chandler contested layup under the basket.

I had NYK beating the Celts and losing in the second round. Good talent, but miserable usage of same due to stubborn egocentric players. Chandler was distinctly more efficient than Carmelo, what were you watching?


In response to the thread, I'd say that Melo has been a Top 5 player once or twice in his career, but that speaks more to the competition than about him. However there is no denying that he has been a top 10 player perennially.

He might have been a top 10 player twice, never top 5. Put your father on, he sounds very interesting.

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 04:39 PM
Sorry, but where are you getting most of these numbers?

Nothing to be sorry about, basketball-reference.com

Fine, his TOV% rate wasn't hideous compared to his USG% - do please address the other dozen plus stats of his I put out there in two posts the past 3 days.

He's not top 5, never was, never will be.

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 04:48 PM
Melo is a gear player in this league. He had to be a top 5 player at least once. I would say every year he is in the top 6 players. I believe he's is equal to Durant. Both great score and both same defenders in my opinion. Also melo played James better and steps up more when they go head to head.

A gear? You mean a "tool"? Yes, he sure is. Looks for yourself. Weak rebounder, weak assists, weak efficiency, weak defense.

Durant is distinctly better then Carmelo. Durant's last 3 years are far in excess of anything Carmelo has done in his career.

Head to head, James beats Carmelo in:

APG (7.2 > 2.4)
STL (1.8 > .9)
REB (7.6 > 6)
PPG (25.2 > 23.9) FG% (.468 > .438)

IndyRealist
08-02-2013, 07:49 PM
funny that you see no irony in what you wrote - if the efficiency has a peak (due to d of the other team, exhaustion of the shooter, etc.) than stop shooting so much. Ipso facto.

this.

bagwell368
08-02-2013, 09:06 PM
Why do I have to be unique?

Are you familiar with the concept of sarcasm? I never saw many NYK fans writing about Carmelo until he went to NY. Hard not to see much of the responses as straight fanatic defense of their "guy" despite his many weaknesses.


I'm a die hard Knick fan because of my Dad. Absolutely no point to this comment other than to show your agenda.

There are 30 teams, they all have some number of hard core fans. If a hard core fan can be objective about their team and their rivals, then I'm interested. If they can't than I'm bored.


This is the problem with you stat nerds, although I wouldn't even call you one. You're more of a troll considering you only like to use stats that favor you as evidenced by your use of PPG among all the other efficiency stats you use. But that is neither here nor there.

I was a fan, player, and coach before I ever heard of advanced stats in basketball. If I start throwing around lingo and concepts from playing and coaching, most here won't have a clue, so stats makes it easy to make objective points about.

I'm not the guy that said Carmelo is or has been a top 5 player in the NBA. There are plenty of people to support that view - mostly fanatics from what I read. I take the other side. Carmelo is a selfish pig, and I can prove it with stats, what can you prove besides your claim you're a big fan, and you like Carmelo.


You say the Knicks' offense is efficient because of players like Novak, Kidd, Pablo, Tyson, K-Mart.

No, I said those players were more efficient than Carmelo.


You fail to consider who creates these efficient opportunities to score or why they even exist in the first place.

Well since Carmelo doesn't bother to pass or rebound very much, what opportunities besides for himself is he creating?


Put those 5 players on the court at the same time and see what happens. Their scoring (if they even do score) would not be efficient. It would be nonexistent.

This is a nonsense conclusion. You actually put that down in a post? Have you no shame - or simp,e understanding of the game?


So why are these players efficient? Simply, by putting Carmelo on the floor. Carmelo's ability to score and get to the hoop at will creates these opportunities. Why do I care if he holds the ball when good things happen when it is in his hands?

Good things like ****** shooting percentages? Good thinks like very small assist numbers? He's a pig.


Do I care if he doesn't record an assist when the player he passes to makes a smart extra pass for a wide open 3?

He doesn't pass much regardless of assists or not - he's a "finisher" in the sense that he's killed the energy and flow of his teams offense by being a big pig.


But it's clear you hate Carmelo so this will be my last post in this thread.

He has his uses, but he could be much better than he is. He is a stupid and selfish player. And he's never been top 5 in the NBA - it's nonsense.

Sixerlover
08-02-2013, 09:15 PM
Never.

Bostonjorge
08-02-2013, 10:49 PM
A gear? You mean a "tool"? Yes, he sure is. Looks for yourself. Weak rebounder, weak assists, weak efficiency, weak defense.

Durant is distinctly better then Carmelo. Durant's last 3 years are far in excess of anything Carmelo has done in his career.

Head to head, James beats Carmelo in:

APG (7.2 > 2.4)
STL (1.8 > .9)
REB (7.6 > 6)
PPG (25.2 > 23.9) FG% (.468 > .438)

I meant great. I also meant when melo playes lebron and when Durant plays lebron. Melo steps up and Durant becomes just a 3 point shorter. What can Durant do better then melo?

tredigs
08-02-2013, 10:50 PM
I meant great. I also meant when melo playes lebron and when Durant plays lebron. Melo steps up and Durant becomes just a 3 point shorter. What can Durant do better then melo?

Defend, rebound, pass, score?

Bostonjorge
08-02-2013, 11:10 PM
Durant is a better shooter but that's it and that doesn't make him a better scorer. On defense they are equal. Durant is a great player as well but I believe melo is at his level and a top 5 - 6 player in the league.

1. James
2. Paul
2a. Durant
2b. Kobe
5. Melo

tredigs
08-02-2013, 11:27 PM
Durant is a better shooter but that's it and that doesn't make him a better scorer. On defense they are equal. Durant is a great player as well but I believe melo is at his level and a top 5 - 6 player in the league.

1. James
2. Paul
2a. Durant
2b. Kobe
5. Melo

Well, no. He's objectively a better defender, rebounder, passer and scorer. Eye test and all stats prove this. Based on other comments I've seen from you, your analysis is not surprising though.

FOXHOUND
08-02-2013, 11:30 PM
Nothing to be sorry about, basketball-reference.com

Fine, his TOV% rate wasn't hideous compared to his USG% - do please address the other dozen plus stats of his I put out there in two posts the past 3 days.

He's not top 5, never was, never will be.

His TO% rate wasn't hideous by any stretch of the imagination. With simple math I can deduce that he finished 22nd overall in TO% amongst qualified players. The 20th player was Tayshaun Prince in a tie at 9.2. There were 4 players with 9.2 overall, 3 are in the top twenty. That means Melo, being the only 9.3, is 22nd. That is outstanding, and leagues better than other top players who handle the ball as much as he does.

Why would I waste my time responding to the rest when it's clear you have an agenda? What, his being 185th in TRB% and how he's not much help there? Once again, that accounts for every player in the NBA regardless of qualifications. That includes all C and PF before you even get to the combo Fs like Melo. Hey, LeBron James finished 130th in TRB% in the NBA overall, guess he wasn't much help on the boards either. Fact is Carmelo Anthony in an elite rebounding SF, only a few are better.

Your agenda is pathetic. I would suggest you don't waste so much time researching and posting about a player you will clearly never like or give credit where it's due to. Melo can score 90 points in a game next season and you would be one of those idiots saying, "but look how many shots he took!". The fact that you're referencing Tyson Chandler being more efficient throughout this thread is a joke in itself.

If you're a troll then bravo, you're a good one.

bagwell368
08-03-2013, 09:50 AM
His TO% rate wasn't hideous by any stretch of the imagination. With simple math I can deduce that he finished 22nd overall in TO% amongst qualified players.

I said I was mistaken in my prior post. Did you bother to read it?


That is outstanding, and leagues better than other top players who handle the ball as much as he does.

Yeah, it's good, and it's a small percentage of his entire game.


Why would I waste my time responding to the rest when it's clear you have an agenda?

Because I didn't make a mistake on those, and if you want to be seen as legitimate you should answer them. My agenda is clear, I don't like gunners that are elevated by fans to greatness when they are not. Carmelo is one of the 10 worst I can think of in this way over my 47 years as a fan.


What, his being 185th in TRB% and how he's not much help there? Once again, that accounts for every player in the NBA regardless of qualifications. That includes all C and PF before you even get to the combo Fs like Melo. Hey, LeBron James finished 130th in TRB% in the NBA overall, guess he wasn't much help on the boards either. Fact is Carmelo Anthony in an elite rebounding SF, only a few are better.

130th is markedly better then 185.


Your agenda is pathetic.

You address only two points, and my agenda is pathetic? Look in the mirror.


I would suggest you don't waste so much time researching and posting about a player you will clearly never like or give credit where it's due to.

I don't like some players in the NBA, but I give them their due. I tear down garbage like Carmelo so that some with an shred of an open mind can see the problems with him, which are manifold.


Melo can score 90 points in a game next season and you would be one of those idiots saying, "but look how many shots he took!". The fact that you're referencing Tyson Chandler being more efficient throughout this thread is a joke in itself.

Chandler is distinctly more efficient than Carmelo shooting last regular season, you clearly need to spend more time watching or checking the stats.


If you're a troll then bravo, you're a good one.

Fanboys don't like me, in particuilar on my home board, but fans of the game - long term smart ones that I respect? They seem OK with me.

As long as you keep writing rubbish about Carmelo, than as long as it suits me, I'll respond.

Kashmir13579
08-03-2013, 11:32 AM
Yes.

Why do I have to be unique? I'm a die hard Knick fan because of my Dad. Absolutely no point to this comment other than to show your agenda.

This is the problem with you stat nerds, although I wouldn't even call you one. You're more of a troll considering you only like to use stats that favor you as evidenced by your use of PPG among all the other efficiency stats you use. But that is neither here nor there.

You say the Knicks' offense is efficient because of players like Novak, Kidd, Pablo, Tyson, K-Mart. You fail to consider who creates these efficient opportunities to score or why they even exist in the first place.

Put those 5 players on the court at the same time and see what happens. Their scoring (if they even do score) would not be efficient. It would be nonexistent. Keep in mind that is perfectly constructed 1-5 lineup.

So why are these players efficient? Simply, by putting Carmelo on the floor. Carmelo's ability to score and get to the hoop at will creates these opportunities. Why do I care if he holds the ball when good things happen when it is in his hands? Do I care if he doesn't record an assist when the player he passes to makes a smart extra pass for a wide open 3?

But it's clear you hate Carmelo so this will be my last post in this thread.

haha, well done. Out of one mouth they criticize his high USG%, out of the other they credit the offense to everyone but 'Melo. Talk about having your cake and eating it.