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Mile High Champ
07-16-2013, 12:58 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


MHC Top 6 SG Head to Head Stats Comparison (CLICK HERE) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=martike02&y1=2012&p2=afflaar01&y2=2012&p3=allenra02&y3=2012&p4=thornma01&y4=2012&p5=allento01&y5=2012&p6=georgpa01&y6=2012)

2013 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Manu Ginobili
4) James Harden
5) Joe Johnson
6) Monta Ellis
7) Eric Gordon
8) Paul George
9) Kevin Martin
10) Ray Allen

2011 Off-Season PSD SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5) Monta Ellis
6) Kevin Martin
7) Ray Allen
8) Eric Gordon
9) Jason Terry
10) James Harden

2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
07-16-2013, 01:05 AM
Even though Paul George played the majority of last season at SF, he will be the starting SG this coming year for Indiana with Granger returning from injury. Thus Geogre will be on this poll.

Mods please sticky.

Bruno
07-16-2013, 01:12 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=wadedw01&y2=2013&p3=hardeja01&y3=2013

Crackadalic
07-16-2013, 01:16 AM
I'm choosing James harden. His play last season open my eyes and is one of the more efficient 2 guards we have.

aTinyPanda
07-16-2013, 01:22 AM
I'm choosing James harden. His play last season open my eyes and is one of the more efficient 2 guards we have.

Same. If he was even slightly better defensively, this would be an absolute no brainer. As it stands though, I won't be surprised if people make a Kobe or DWade argument.

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-16-2013, 01:33 AM
Time for the top spot James.

sunsfan88
07-16-2013, 01:39 AM
Has to be Jared Dudley here.

b@llhog24
07-16-2013, 02:31 AM
Harden.

Sadds The Gr8
07-16-2013, 02:37 AM
The Beard

Matter.
07-16-2013, 02:51 AM
Kobe. :D

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 03:02 AM
I am glad the right choice has been made.

BirdIsTheWord
07-16-2013, 03:38 AM
Iguodala should probably be on this list.

NBA-GMaster
07-16-2013, 04:13 AM
Choosing between Harden or Wade.. HMMM.. :fight:

tredigs
07-16-2013, 05:09 AM
I won't hate on Harden or Kobe. Anything else needs massive explanation.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:11 AM
I won't hate on Harden or Kobe. Anything else needs massive explanation.

Wade was better than Kobe last year and Harden blew both away.

DanG
07-16-2013, 05:22 AM
Wade or Kobe. I'm going with Kobe because I'm a homer.

LAKERS4LIFE!!
07-16-2013, 05:23 AM
Wade was better than Kobe last year and Harden blew both away.

I'm not saying you're wrong but can you explain to me how Harden was so much better than Kobe? Or can anyone tell me, I just don't see how he "blew both away."

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:31 AM
I'm not saying you're wrong but can you explain to me how Harden was so much better than Kobe? Or can anyone tell me, I just don't see how he "blew both away."

Scored way more efficiently in the same volume while playing similar defense.

Wade scored equally efficient as Kobe and killed him defensively.

lavilevi23
07-16-2013, 05:37 AM
lol @ this poll. I've lost all respect for these PSD rankings.

LAKERS4LIFE!!
07-16-2013, 05:42 AM
Scored way more efficiently in the same volume while playing similar defense.

Wade scored equally efficient as Kobe and killed him defensively.

How did he score more efficiently than Kobe? Kobe has a higher FG % and pretty much better stats in everything?

By your last post, it should've been Wade who "blew" both Kobe and Harden away since he did score more efficiently and played better defense compared to both. I can see an argument made for Wade but I don't see it for Harden.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:48 AM
How did he score more efficiently than Kobe? Kobe has a higher FG % and pretty much better stats in everything?

By your last post, it should've been Wade who "blew" both Kobe and Harden away since he did score more efficiently and played better defense compared to both. I can see an argument made for Wade but I don't see it for Harden.


Because FG percentage is not a stat we use. That's a bad/dumb stat. TS percentage is by far more indicative of who scored the most efficiently.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:49 AM
lol @ this poll. I've lost all respect for these PSD rankings.


That's okay. If you don't think Harden played better you are wrong and you can be an ******* about being wrong.

tredigs
07-16-2013, 06:16 AM
Wade was better than Kobe last year and Harden blew both away.

Wade in Kobe's role last year is a whimper of his potential. Let's argue this.

I agree that Harden was the best, but it wasn't a massive difference.

DanG
07-16-2013, 07:16 AM
Harden is a choker :hide:.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 07:47 AM
Harden is a choker :hide:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6_KYulzT4M

shut up, skip bayless.

thenaj17
07-16-2013, 08:10 AM
Harden is most definitely not the top SG ahead of Kobe or Wade.

He has more proving to do before he takes the title.

Wade has been particularly poor in comparison stat wise but when needed, look what he did in game 7 with LeBron. He is still a top player in the league and if LeBron went down with injury, Wade could easily step in for a while as THE MAN.

Any defender in the league would tell you they'd rather face Harden than either Kobe or Wade.

Jetsguy
07-16-2013, 08:17 AM
Harden for me, distanced himself this year with Wade and Kobe getting older

Kobes a Killer
07-16-2013, 08:30 AM
Pass the bath salt. Harden can't hold Kobes bags...yet

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 08:36 AM
Harden is most definitely not the top SG ahead of Kobe or Wade.

He has more proving to do before he takes the title.

Wade has been particularly poor in comparison stat wise but when needed, look what he did in game 7 with LeBron. He is still a top player in the league and if LeBron went down with injury, Wade could easily step in for a while as THE MAN.

Any defender in the league would tell you they'd rather face Harden than either Kobe or Wade.

We all know how good the track record of player's that become GM's are.

DanG
07-16-2013, 09:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6_KYulzT4M

shut up, skip bayless.

We are talking about last year.

Harden was pretty much the reason Houston didn't get past OKC last season. He was awful.

26/7/4.5 4.5 TO's on 39% shooting.

at home: 23.5/5/5 5 TO's on 36% shooting
on the road: 28.5/8/4 4 TO's on 42% shooting

and it's not just this series.. he was awful against Miami too.

When it's the playoffs. Kobe & Wade >>> Harden.

SteBO
07-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Man, I'm too hesitant to put Harden over Kobe or Wade yet.....though he did show me something being the focal point of the offense. I'll hold my vote for now, but it looks like James will end up winning it anyway.

ManRam
07-16-2013, 09:38 AM
It's Harden or Kobe, but Wade isn't too far behind (if you buy into the theory that he was just hurt again in the playoffs). Statistically little separates them.

I think it's Harden by a smidgen. He was slightly better defensively and offensively IMO regardless of how you go about it (unless you only care about PPG). Little separates their passing and rebounding numbers. They both scored at about the same rate. But Harden was just a bit more efficient scoring-wise, again, regardless of how you go about defining that. He did have a tough 6 game playoff run shooting-wise, but his ability to get to the line makes up to a great extent. Wade wasn't any better in the playoffs, and Kobe didn't make it there and is quite a bit removed from his last great playoff run.

Harden did take a team that was a concensus top-of-the-lottery team before he got there and got them 45 wins and played OKC very tough.

Kobe or Harden are both 100% acceptable answers. I just think the case for Harden is slightly more compelling. However, if you want to factor in his playoff "let downs" that's solid reasoning to give Kobe the edge.

I'm actually just not gonna vote though, because even with all that said, I'm not unconvinced it's not Kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 09:48 AM
such a weak position right now, with Kobe hurt, and Wade fading.

Harden, going into this season, is probably the best SG in the game.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 09:49 AM
It's Harden or Kobe, but Wade isn't too far behind (if you buy into the theory that he was just hurt again in the playoffs). Statistically little separates them.

I think it's Harden by a smidgen. He was slightly better defensively and offensively IMO regardless of how you go about it (unless you only care about PPG). Little separates their passing and rebounding numbers. They both scored at about the same rate. But Harden was just a bit more efficient scoring-wise, again, regardless of how you go about defining that. He did have a tough 6 game playoff run shooting-wise, but his ability to get to the line makes up to a great extent. Wade wasn't any better in the playoffs, and Kobe didn't make it there and is quite a bit removed from his last great playoff run.

Harden did take a team that was a concensus top-of-the-lottery team before he got there and got them 45 wins and played OKC very tough.

Kobe or Harden are both 100% acceptable answers. I just think the case for Harden is slightly more compelling. However, if you want to factor in his playoff "let downs" that's solid reasoning to give Kobe the edge.

I'm actually just not gonna vote though, because even with all that said, I'm not unconvinced it's not Kobe.

yeah, if Kobe were not injured, I still have him #1.

ATX
07-16-2013, 09:59 AM
I know I'll get hammered for saying this, but's just an opinion. I have Wade here.

1. He had a very efficient year last year, and even in the playoffs, despite his deep bone bruises on his knees, came up big time when the team needed him the most. While he is declining, it's not this rapid decent...See last years stats. His scoring was down, but still good for 8th in the league. I believe he'll bounce back next year, especially considering how he has a track record of doing this when criticized as he has been. 2. Kobe, is injured and we're not sure how much time he'll miss. While he has aged brilliantly, I have to assume coming off his injury he'll have lost a step at age 35, finally. Despite some beliefs, he is human. Healing at older ages is not as easy as when your young. It generally takes longer. 3. Harden. Shooting 39% in the playoffs tells me he's not quite ready to overtake the likes of Kobe and Wade just yet. He's getting there, but I want to see how he does when there is another big mouth to feed in Houston. He's top 3 without question, just need to see more first. Anyways, just my opinion.

mjm07
07-16-2013, 10:02 AM
1A: Kobe
1B: Harden
1C: Wade

IMO

kdspurman
07-16-2013, 10:29 AM
I went with Kobe

Jabears85
07-16-2013, 10:34 AM
I'm choosing James harden. His play last season open my eyes and is one of the more efficient 2 guards we have.

Black Mamba


Same. If he was even slightly better defensively, this would be an absolute no brainer. As it stands though, I won't be surprised if people make a Kobe or DWade argument.


No Kobe

Harden.


This is a sad joke right now, Kobe, easily.

The Beard

Black Mamba


lol @ this poll. I've lost all respect for these PSD rankings.

They're seriously only a handful of people on this website that have any idea what their talking about


yeah, if Kobe were not injured, I still have him #1.

He got injured just before in the playoffs....If this thread was for the upcoming year I would understand because he probably wont be ready for the season, but Kobe is still the top dog at SG in the NBA

LAKERMANIA
07-16-2013, 10:35 AM
Any answer that's not Kobe is incorrect

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 10:46 AM
He got injured in the playoffs....If this thread was for the upcoming year I would understand because he probably wont be ready for the season, but Kobe is still the top dog at SG in the NBA

I vote combined on both last season, and next season. That is the way I do it personally. Which is why Rose and Kobe both just won't get a ton of respect from me for instance. Nor Love, Bynum, etc.

Mishmin
07-16-2013, 10:47 AM
Gotta love to Jared Dudley vote

Jabears85
07-16-2013, 11:00 AM
Any answer that's not Kobe is incorrect

Gotta agree with you, I hate a lot of laker fans and am not the biggest fan of Kobe. But seriously there is no debate here, there is nothing you can say that places Harden ahead of Kobe.

This isn't who would you start a franchise with thread! Or who has the most potential! This thread is who is CURRENTLY, maybe i should say that again CURRENTLY the best shooting guard in the NBA. The 13'-14' season hasn't started yet and based on Harden's play this past year he did not pass Kobe as best SG.

Both players players played 78 games, Harden was a first round exist and Kobe didn't even have a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. Im sure had he been healthy he would have stole one from the Spurs but still Harden didnt do anything to pass kobe as best, no argument here. I never care about this **** but come one people Kobe is 34 years old and still produced better than a 23 year old James HArden

alencp3
07-16-2013, 11:15 AM
it will be harden or george this upcoming season

Jabears85
07-16-2013, 11:17 AM
it will be harden or george this upcoming season

Ya cant disagree there, but everyone likes to prematurely crown them king before it actually happens.

SteBO
07-16-2013, 11:17 AM
I went with Kobe in the end, just because I'm amazed at how well he's aged, but D-Wade needs to get a lot more respect here outside of the Miami fans. Dude shot a career FG% despite playing on one good knee for a chuck of the year including the playoffs, and still managed roughly 21/5/5 on average.

YoungOne
07-16-2013, 11:26 AM
kobe was the best SG last season

ManRam
07-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Gotta agree with you, I hate a lot of laker fans and am not the biggest fan of Kobe. But seriously there is no debate here, there is nothing you can say that places Harden ahead of Kobe.

This isn't who would you start a franchise with thread! Or who has the most potential! This thread is who is CURRENTLY, maybe i should say that again CURRENTLY the best shooting guard in the NBA. The 13'-14' season hasn't started yet and based on Harden's play this past year he did not pass Kobe as best SG.

Both players players played 78 games, Harden was a first round exist and Kobe didn't even have a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. Im sure had he been healthy he would have stole one from the Spurs but still Harden didnt do anything to pass kobe as best, no argument here. I never care about this **** but come one people Kobe is 34 years old and still produced better than a 23 year old James HArden

And yet, there's nothing you have said that places Kobe ahead of Harden.


I get a vote for Kobe, I don't understand how people don't think it's a debate. Harden was better statistically last year...but he kinda flopped again in the playoffs. It's probably generalizing it way too much, but people are gonna vote on what they value there more.

Also, gone are the days where Kobe is a strong defender and that's just another lock of an argument for him. Harden is not stud, but he was a better defender than Kobe this past season. Kobe was actually a hindrance this year defensively. A true negative defensively.



There's an argument. I'm not saying you're wrong in picking Kobe (I pretty much have it at a coin toss), but you are wrong in saying there's no debate here.

Jabears85
07-16-2013, 11:49 AM
kobe was the best SG last season

Yep


And yet, there's nothing you have said that places Kobe ahead of Harden.


I get a vote for Kobe, I don't understand how people don't think it's a debate. Harden was better statistically last year...but he kinda flopped again in the playoffs. It's probably generalizing it way too much, but people are gonna vote on what they value there more.

Also, gone are the days where Kobe is a strong defender and that's just another lock of an argument for him. Harden is not stud, but he was a better defender than Kobe this past season. Kobe was actually a hindrance this year defensively. A true negative defensively.



There's an argument. I'm not saying you're wrong in picking Kobe (I pretty much have it at a coin toss), but you are wrong in saying there's no debate here.

There is nothing to be said, Kobe's numbers are better, he shot the ball more but also shot a better percentage. So i dont know what "statistics" your looking at but he didnt have a better year than Kobe.

aTinyPanda
07-16-2013, 12:06 PM
Yep



There is nothing to be said, Kobe's numbers are better, he shot the ball more but also shot a better percentage. So i dont know what "statistics" your looking at but he didnt have a better year than Kobe.

He's looking at the advanced statistics. The ones that matter IMO. Kobe's numbers are the same or slightly worse than Harden's in most categories of advanced stats. This is where the debate is coming from. If you can't understand that there is at least a fair debate to be had, then there's no point in arguing with you. "Kobe is the best OMG he scoars sooooo much he's the greatest evarrr" is not a point well made. You are just stating your opinion.

JLynn943
07-16-2013, 12:09 PM
All three had incredibly similar years when it comes to advanced metrics, so I'm going with the best defense and picking Wade.

Chronz
07-16-2013, 01:09 PM
So do we completely ignore injuries?

SportsFanatic10
07-16-2013, 01:41 PM
its dwyane wade. his stats are comparable to harden and kobe even coming off knee surgery, and his defense was way better than both of them.

LAKERMANIA
07-16-2013, 02:15 PM
So do we completely ignore chokes?

Mikeleafs
07-16-2013, 02:16 PM
My picks, who I'd like on my team...

Harden
George
Kobe
Wade
Johnson
Gordon
Thompson
DeRozan
Ginobli
JR Smith

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 02:20 PM
Yep



There is nothing to be said, Kobe's numbers are better, he shot the ball more but also shot a better percentage. So i dont know what "statistics" your looking at but he didnt have a better year than Kobe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2013&p2=hardeja01&y2=2013

statistically, Harden was better.

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 02:27 PM
Damn expected Kobe to take this one shocked to see Harden running away with it. I watched Kobe Wade and Harden play extensively this past season and I'd have to go with Kobe as my choice.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 02:30 PM
Damn expected Kobe to take this one shocked to see Harden running away with it. I watched Kobe Wade and Harden play extensively this past season and I'd have to go with Kobe as my choice.

based on last year, I think a case can be made for any of the three, though I would choose Kobe. Going into this year, I think Harden assumes the role as the top SG in the league.

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 02:31 PM
based on last year, I think a case can be made for any of the three, though I would choose Kobe. Going into this year, I think Harden assumes the role as the top SG in the league.

Fully agreed.

Avenged
07-16-2013, 03:26 PM
Kobe led the Lakers into the playoffs as a higher seed than than Rockets (tie breaker). As debatable as this one is between those two, weren't the Rockets considered the better team? Especially with a very injured Lakers team? I think that talks dividends about Kobe considered all the chemistry issues, injuries, coaching etc. Not that it matters at this point in the poll.

ChiSox219
07-16-2013, 03:30 PM
Kobe led the Lakers into the playoffs as a higher seed than than Rockets (tie breaker). As debatable as this one is between those two, weren't the Rockets considered the better team? Especially with a very injured Lakers team? I think that talks dividends about Kobe considered all the chemistry issues, injuries, coaching etc. Not that it matters at this point in the poll.

The Rockets started three different DLeaguers last year, so no, they were not considered the better team but they played that way thanks to Harden's ability to run an incredibly efficient offense.

NYKnicks4511
07-16-2013, 03:46 PM
I might not be the richest but knicka I ain't starving. Shout out to James Harden.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 04:10 PM
Kobe led the Lakers into the playoffs as a higher seed than than Rockets (tie breaker). As debatable as this one is between those two, weren't the Rockets considered the better team? Especially with a very injured Lakers team? I think that talks dividends about Kobe considered all the chemistry issues, injuries, coaching etc. Not that it matters at this point in the poll.

The Rockets relied heavily on guys like Delfino, Smith, Morris, and some D-Leaguers that came up however. They weren't considered a better team, but played like a better team most of the year.

b@llhog24
07-16-2013, 04:22 PM
The Rockets started three different DLeaguers last year, so no, they were not considered the better team but they played that way thanks to Harden's ability to run an incredibly efficient offense.
This.

rockets-fan
07-16-2013, 04:32 PM
Can't go wrong with either of those three, I obviously think Harden, but I saw him play alot more too. If Harden wasn't on the poll I'd take Kobe, he is still a cold blooded killer. Wade is declining IMO.

Dade County
07-16-2013, 04:32 PM
Wade!

Harden did have a good year for the rockets... But when Wade was healthy, he was very productive.

still1ballin
07-16-2013, 04:37 PM
Kobe:
PPG: 27.3 / RPG 5.6 / APG 6.0 / 46.3 FG%


Harden
PPG: 25.9 / RPG: 4.9 / APG: 5.8 / 43.8FG%


Yet, Harden is leading the votes by 22. Only on PSD!!!!!!!! :dance:

rockets-fan
07-16-2013, 04:46 PM
Kobe:
PPG: 27.3 / RPG 5.6 / APG 6.0 / 46.3 FG%


Harden
PPG: 25.9 / RPG: 4.9 / APG: 5.8 / 43.8FG%


Yet, Harden is leading the votes by 22. Only on PSD!!!!!!!! :dance:


Get outta here with that, the truth is in the advanced stats.

still1ballin
07-16-2013, 04:56 PM
Get outta here with that, the truth is in the advanced stats.


Here is an advance stat for you!
Harden efficiency: 22.17
Kobe effciency: 24.63


Like I said

Only on PSD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dance:

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 05:02 PM
Here is an advance stat for you!
Harden efficiency: 22.17
Kobe effciency: 24.63


Like I said

Only on PSD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dance:

Only one?

I have seen two other forums vote Harden better than Kobe this past season so let's not say its just PSD.

If its a statistical argument you want Harden has Kobe beat no question about that TBH, but with Kobe I saw better D, better late game play and a player who was able to do more for his team in order to put them in a position to win night in night out and was more consistent over the course of the season, unfortunately for him his coaching and support weren't up to par and he and the Lakers suffered as a result. I got Kobe here based on the factors in which I mentioned, if it were based on stats Harden would certainly won there.

Bookey
07-16-2013, 05:06 PM
Easily Kobe, not really close

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:34 PM
We are talking about last year.

Harden was pretty much the reason Houston didn't get past OKC last season. He was awful.

26/7/4.5 4.5 TO's on 39% shooting.

at home: 23.5/5/5 5 TO's on 36% shooting
on the road: 28.5/8/4 4 TO's on 42% shooting

and it's not just this series.. he was awful against Miami too.

When it's the playoffs. Kobe & Wade >>> Harden.


His awful being a 550 TS percentage against elite wing defenders and perimeter defense. Don't use FG percentage to make a point because it's obvious you are manipulating actual results.

That being said, if you think clutch is a thing and things don't average out over a long time, you are nuts.

Career TS percentage 603
Playoff TS percentage 599

After reading this thread, Kobe fans are ****ing nuts.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:36 PM
Gotta agree with you, I hate a lot of laker fans and am not the biggest fan of Kobe. But seriously there is no debate here, there is nothing you can say that places Harden ahead of Kobe.

This isn't who would you start a franchise with thread! Or who has the most potential! This thread is who is CURRENTLY, maybe i should say that again CURRENTLY the best shooting guard in the NBA. The 13'-14' season hasn't started yet and based on Harden's play this past year he did not pass Kobe as best SG.

Both players players played 78 games, Harden was a first round exist and Kobe didn't even have a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. Im sure had he been healthy he would have stole one from the Spurs but still Harden didnt do anything to pass kobe as best, no argument here. I never care about this **** but come one people Kobe is 34 years old and still produced better than a 23 year old James HArden

Yes, and Harden was ****ing better last year.

He played better defense and scored more efficiently at almost the same rate.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:43 PM
Here is an advance stat for you!
Harden efficiency: 22.17
Kobe effciency: 24.63


Like I said

Only on PSD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dance:
Harden's TS percntage is 600. Kobe's TS percentage is 570. Harden plays better defense. Kobe's WS is 10.9 (Despite playing way more minutes) and Harden's WS is 12.8.

DanG
07-16-2013, 05:48 PM
His awful being a 550 TS percentage against elite wing defenders and perimeter defense. Don't use FG percentage to make a point because it's obvious you are manipulating actual results.

That being said, if you think clutch is a thing and things don't average out over a long time, you are nuts.

Career TS percentage 603
Playoff TS percentage 599

We are talking about last season, not his whole career.

2013 Regular season:

PER 23.0 | TS% .600 | eFG% .504 | WS/48 .206

2013 Playoffs:

PER 20.8 | TS% .548 | eFG% .457 | WS/48 .100

He still choked and wasn't himself. He was the reason they didn't get past OKC.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 05:51 PM
We are talking about last season, not his whole career.

2013 Regular season:

PER 23.0 | TS% .600 | eFG% .504 | WS/48 .206

2013 Playoffs:

PER 20.8 | TS% .548 | eFG% .457 | WS/48 .100

He still choked and wasn't himself. He was the reason they didn't get past OKC.


Everyone's playoff numbers go down. You are playing against elite defenses in the playoffs, not every team.

That being said, there is a thing called random variation. It's why you can have an amazing series vs the Spurs and regress later in the playoffs.

Everything averages out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F3N8CF8jJI

That's why this game happened (Which I predicted because of regression to the mean.)

ManRam
07-16-2013, 06:07 PM
Yep



There is nothing to be said, Kobe's numbers are better, he shot the ball more but also shot a better percentage. So i dont know what "statistics" your looking at but he didnt have a better year than Kobe.

His FG% doesn't mean he's scoring better. He's not. Harden's ability to shoot the three and his FT abilities render him a more efficient scorer. Kobe only scores more because he takes more shots. Give them the same amount of shots and Harden is easily scoring more.

His very basic numbers might be better, but that means little.

ManRam
07-16-2013, 06:08 PM
So do we completely ignore chokes?

Do we completely ignore a HUGELY disappointing season and a ridiculous underachievement too?

Chronz
07-16-2013, 06:11 PM
So do we completely ignore chokes?

No idea what you're hinting at

LAKERMANIA
07-16-2013, 06:12 PM
Do we completely ignore a HUGELY disappointing season and a ridiculous underachievement too?
I'm sorry I thought we were talking about who had the better individual season... You kinda just shot yourself in the foot with this post..

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 06:14 PM
I'm sorry I thought we were talking about who had the better individual season... You kinda just shot yourself in the foot with this post..

I am guessing you don't understand when people are trying to make a point. He was bring up something equally irrelevant.

LAKERMANIA
07-16-2013, 06:20 PM
I am guessing you don't understand when people are trying to make a point. He was bring up something equally irrelevant.

Except what I brought up had to do with the individual performance, while the other had to do with team performance...

Chronz
07-16-2013, 06:28 PM
Except what I brought up had to do with the individual performance, while the other had to do with team performance...

So your teammates dont influence your individual production? Its not easier to lock in on 1 player in a playoff series either I guess.

And again, the guy is injured. How is that better than "choking" in a series your guy didn't even get to partake in?

ManRam
07-16-2013, 06:53 PM
I'm sorry I thought we were talking about who had the better individual season... You kinda just shot yourself in the foot with this post..

1. What Guppy said, and Chronz too.

2. Kobe has been a player whose career and reputation has been boosted, perhaps more than anyone else, because of team success. He was a "consensus" best player in the league in part because people vaulted him over better players because he was on championship teams. Now, why does he get that boost in reputation when his team is great, but gets no flack when his team underachieves like crazy? Kobe being a "winner" was always the trump card. This year you can't use that argument. Also, while I commend his effort and how he did carry that team at times, this year was the first time I've ever seen a lot of Lakers fans turn on him on a somewhat frequent basis. That says something, considering how he's a demi-god there.

Also, a bad playoffs series is sometimes just a "bad playoff series". You're too liberal with your usage of choke here. He disappointed, but I don't think that magically makes him a lesser player. The Thunder threw everything they had at him because they knew nothing else could beat them. No player in the playoffs, in my estimation, drew that much attention from an opposing defense all playoffs long. He meant more to that team than arguably any other single player in the playoffs. It was a disappointment, but he'll learn from it and again, I don't think a few bad games magically makes him worse than a player he was better than all season long.

Chronz
07-16-2013, 06:56 PM
I do think Kobe was the better player, but the injury puts it all in doubt IMO. Its not as if Kobe had a gargantuan edge on Harden, his durability was his strong suit, thats gone now. Hes in that Wade category where these 2 are better WHEN HEALTHY, that doesn't mean we should expect them to ever be healthy again.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 07:06 PM
I am not sure why anyone thinks Kobe is close?
He had less win shares in more minutes, scored less efficiently, and played worse defense.

I guess name value still has value.

ManRam
07-16-2013, 07:13 PM
I do think Kobe was the better player, but the injury puts it all in doubt IMO. Its not as if Kobe had a gargantuan edge on Harden, his durability was his strong suit, thats gone now. Hes in that Wade category where these 2 are better WHEN HEALTHY, that doesn't mean we should expect them to ever be healthy again.

That surprises me. Not because of any perceived biases or anything, but because knowing (rather poorly) how you tend to think I would assume the opposite. I think Harden had the better year. Unless you're separating "better year" from just being the better player, then I'm surprised.

Even with my last past, and I got carried away saying Harden was "clearly better", I think it's a tossup. That's why I voted Beal!

Chronz
07-16-2013, 07:50 PM
That surprises me. Not because of any perceived biases or anything, but because knowing (rather poorly) how you tend to think I would assume the opposite. I think Harden had the better year. Unless you're separating "better year" from just being the better player, then I'm surprised.

Even with my last past, and I got carried away saying Harden was "clearly better", I think it's a tossup. That's why I voted Beal!
Better player doesn't equal better RS. I just feel Kobe gives any team a better chance to win in the playoffs, with his offensive versatility and similar stats. His defense raises up several notches then as well.

But for the sake of debate we can argue who had the better RS too.

mrblisterdundee
07-16-2013, 09:41 PM
I think James Harden has it here. He didn't blow Kobe Bryant away, and Dwayne Wade simply blew himself away, and not in a good way.
Compared to Wade and Bryant per 36 minutes, Harden shot significantly better from three-point land. And before you read too much into his lower field goal percentage, remember that Harden got to the free throw line more. He shot more than 85 percent from the line per 36 minutes, while sinking more than eight free throws compared to Bryant's 6.3 and Wade's paltry 4.6, a testament to his decreasing athleticism.
I think the only reason Wade did so well this season is because he had LeBron James to take the heat off him – pun intended. That's why I think Bryant was the second-best behind Harden.

mrblisterdundee
07-16-2013, 09:45 PM
I am not sure why anyone thinks Kobe is close?
He had less win shares in more minutes, scored less efficiently, and played worse defense.

I guess name value still has value.

He was the primary option on a team where none of the other stars showed up most of the time, and he still turned in a pretty efficient year, even at age 34. I think that makes him close to James Harden, who's clearly the best shooting guard now.

Kashmir13579
07-16-2013, 09:51 PM
This is the year we collectively acknowledge Wade's decline.

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 10:02 PM
I am not sure why anyone thinks Kobe is close?
He had less win shares in more minutes, scored less efficiently, and played worse defense.

I guess name value still has value.

Chronz, Hawkeye15 and myself are 3 of the most notorious advanced stats guys on this forum (and some of the most knowledgeable as well) and have all been called Kobe haters but yet we all think that Kobe has a case or should be #1. Do you see something there?

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 10:06 PM
Chronz, Hawkeye15 and myself are 3 of the most notorious advanced stats guys on this forum (and some of the most knowledgeable as well) and have all been called Kobe haters but yet we all think that Kobe has a case or should be #1. Do you see something there?

I don't really care. Kobe wasn't close to Harden. The fact he had two less wins in WS despite getting more minutes and having a greater volume of shots says something. After that, Harden kill hims in efficiency and defense.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 10:19 PM
I don't really care. Kobe wasn't close to Harden. The fact he had two less wins in WS despite getting more minutes and having a greater volume of shots says something. After that, Harden kill hims in efficiency and defense.

look, I respect your opinion, you are a stats guy. But you lack context many times man. Harden was a horrific defender. It's as if he didn't bother on that end. Kobe was the best SG last year, when you factor in everything.

DR_1
07-16-2013, 10:34 PM
For future reference, Jimmy Butler is the Bulls starting 2, and after the year he had he should at least be an option IMO, anyone agree?

Anyway, my vote for the top spot goes to Kobe in a close one over the Beard.

ChiSox219
07-16-2013, 10:36 PM
look, I respect your opinion, you are a stats guy. But you lack context many times man. Harden was a horrific defender. It's as if he didn't bother on that end. Kobe was the best SG last year, when you factor in everything.

I think context favors Harden. Also, Kobe was as bad or worse than Harden was on defense.

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 10:38 PM
look, I respect your opinion, you are a stats guy. But you lack context many times man. Harden was a horrific defender. It's as if he didn't bother on that end. Kobe was the best SG last year, when you factor in everything.

He lacks context every time.

JasonJohnHorn
07-16-2013, 10:45 PM
WTF voted for DeRozen, Dudley, Beal and Hayward? Seriously?

JasonJohnHorn
07-16-2013, 10:47 PM
Why is Paul George on the list? He moved over to small forward this year.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2013, 11:14 PM
I think context favors Harden. Also, Kobe was as bad or worse than Harden was on defense.

not going to disagree

DR_1
07-16-2013, 11:16 PM
Why is Paul George on the list? He moved over to small forward this year.

Because when Granger is healthy he plays the 2. He was playing out of position (technically) last season.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 01:07 AM
look, I respect your opinion, you are a stats guy. But you lack context many times man. Harden was a horrific defender. It's as if he didn't bother on that end. Kobe was the best SG last year, when you factor in everything.

I would agree with that except Kobe was just as bad or worse at defense. Offense is the tie breaker and Harden's offense wins more games.

Greet
07-17-2013, 02:00 AM
Because when Granger is healthy he plays the 2. He was playing out of position (technically) last season.

Well like we found out in the PG polls is that if they didn't play, they aren't in the poll.

I think PG should be put with the SF, because that's what he was this year.

Chacarron
07-17-2013, 03:03 AM
Ze gratest no ?s asked.

BklynKnicks3
07-17-2013, 09:19 AM
If we are going of last season Jr has to be top 5

1. Kobe
2. Harden
3.wade
4. George
5. Jr

mjm07
07-17-2013, 09:39 AM
^^^homer alert!! ^^^^

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 10:46 AM
I think context favors Harden. Also, Kobe was as bad or worse than Harden was on defense.

I don't think he was. The point is, Kobe is proven, and Harden didn't do enough to sway the masses opinion. Obviously, going into this year, its a no brainer with Kobe's injury, and Wade slowing down.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 10:47 AM
I might add, that I have no issue with the poll turning out this way. To me, this one is not worth the in depth argument. Hell, I even voted for Harden, and then thought about it a little more and realized I thought Kobe was probably the best last year.

ChiSox219
07-17-2013, 12:37 PM
Where's Tredigs with the RAPM numbers? Same position and same role, I bet Harden showed better because i think his game was more consistently conducive to winning.

ManRam
07-17-2013, 12:40 PM
Where's Tredigs with the RAPM numbers? Same position and same role, I bet Harden showed better because i think his game was more consistently conducive to winning.

Harden: +6.0 offense, -0.9 defense = +5.1
Bryant: +4.4 offense, -1.4 defense = +3.2

That was the kicker that had me go from thinking complete tossup to Harden being a bit better. I don't think anyone is surprised they were in the negatives defensively. And like I've said, I think Harden's offensive numbers are a bit more impressive because of his efficiency...though, I'm surprised the gap between the two is that big

D-Leethal
07-17-2013, 12:56 PM
Iman Shumpert.

Greet
07-17-2013, 01:41 PM
Harden: +6.0 offense, -0.9 defense = +5.1
Bryant: +4.4 offense, -1.4 defense = +3.2

That was the kicker that had me go from thinking complete tossup to Harden being a bit better. I don't think anyone is surprised they were in the negatives defensively. And like I've said, I think Harden's offensive numbers are a bit more impressive because of his efficiency...though, I'm surprised the gap between the two is that big

They also had basically the same exact Win%, but Harden had a higher Net48.

I do think Harden has the slight edge here....

RaJAxTWa
07-17-2013, 01:41 PM
its funny because kobe beat harden in every category last season lol

dabeach87
07-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Kirby stew namba won! fk hardon

Chronz
07-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Harden: +6.0 offense, -0.9 defense = +5.1
Bryant: +4.4 offense, -1.4 defense = +3.2

That was the kicker that had me go from thinking complete tossup to Harden being a bit better. I don't think anyone is surprised they were in the negatives defensively. And like I've said, I think Harden's offensive numbers are a bit more impressive because of his efficiency...though, I'm surprised the gap between the two is that big

Should never be surprised by stats so connected to team results. Harden ranked higher than Kobe last year, as did about 50 other inferior players. No doubt a result of playing alongside superior talent and the high probability of random variation.

Playoff time tho, who do you want on your team?

SportsFanatic10
07-17-2013, 02:24 PM
these 3 sgs were a lot closer this year then the poll indicated. i understand how wade is so far behind since people remember watching him hurt in the playoffs and most don't value defense. but it's crazy harden is so far out in front of kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 02:30 PM
its funny because kobe beat harden in every category last season lol

he did? Harden had a higher TS%, win shares, WS/48, offensive rating, and tied him in PER.

Hawkeye15
07-17-2013, 02:30 PM
Playoff time tho, who do you want on your team?

that is probably why I keep coming back to Kobe here

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 03:56 PM
I don't think he was. The point is, Kobe is proven, and Harden didn't do enough to sway the masses opinion. Obviously, going into this year, its a no brainer with Kobe's injury, and Wade slowing down.

I think it's arguable that Harden was better than Kobe in his last year with OKC, he just didn't get the volume to show it. I don't think he actually improved from that year. I think he's generally the same player. TS of 650 for 16.3 points to 25 points on 600 TS. That's generally what you expect from a player with a bigger workload.

With Harden's year last year, I don't think it's possible to argue for Kobe.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 04:00 PM
that is probably why I keep coming back to Kobe here

Harden put up a 550 TS percentage vs the fourth best defensive team in the league. That's only 20 off Kobe's TS this year. There is absolutely no way Kobe would have been more efficient vs the Thunder than Harden. Especially when we already know how inefficient he was vs the Thunder in the 2012 playoffs.

His TS vs the Thunder in the playoffs was 515 and it's 536 for the entire playoffs.

Kobe's last really amazing playoff run was in the Lakers last final run. However, now, there is no way he would be better in the playoffs compared to Harden.

5ass
07-17-2013, 04:08 PM
Harden put up a 550 TS percentage vs the fourth best defensive team in the league. That's only 20 off Kobe's TS this year. There is absolutely no way Kobe would have been more efficient vs the Thunder than Harden. Especially when we already know how inefficient he was vs the Thunder in the 2012 playoffs.

His TS vs the Thunder in the playoffs was 515 and it's 536 for the entire playoffs.

Kobe's last really amazing playoff run was in the Lakers last final run. However, now, there is no way he would be better in the playoffs compared to Harden.

Kobe has only shot 55% ts or more 7 out of 15 years in the play offs. If thats Harden choking, then what does that say about Kobe?

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 04:15 PM
Kobe has only shot 55% ts or more 7 out of 15 years in the play offs. If thats Harden choking, then what does that say about Kobe?

To be fair to Kobe, those deep playoff runs typically involve playing better defensive teams. And his prime is obviously important for playoff runs, like 09-10. But 100 percent, you can not say Kobe would have been better in the playoffs last year compared to Harden.

It's flat out wrong.

I enjoyed the jab at that Laker fan though.

ManRam
07-17-2013, 04:54 PM
Playoff time tho, who do you want on your team?

I'd take Kobe in the 2012-13 playoffs over Harden by a slight margin, but I'm not too worried about Harden going forward. His FG% sucked during that 6 game stretch. He should step up better than he did, and the whole "OKC had no one to worry about but him" thing, while perhaps true, isn't a good excuse. But Kobe might break down, Harden won't. And it's not like Kobe was scoring terribly efficient down the stretch either. He was a 43% shooter the last few months.


And Kobe hasn't been leaps and bounds better in the playoffs the last two years than Harden either. It's not like he's been setting the world on fire .529 TS% and 22.4 PER.


I'd rather have Harden on my team now and next year, but I'd rather take a flier with Kobe for a playoff run. I guess abstaining from the vote makes even more sense.

justinnum1
07-17-2013, 05:13 PM
harden above both kobe and wade. laughable.

Jabears85
07-17-2013, 05:27 PM
KOBEEEEEEEE hands down! kobeeeeeeeee gets its done when it matters, does 5 rings lie?

Jabears85
07-17-2013, 05:29 PM
I'd rather have Harden on my team now and next year, but I'd rather take a flier with Kobe for a playoff run. I guess abstaining from the vote makes even more sense.

Well ya duh! Harden is 23 going on 24 he has the potential to be a great player in this league potential MVP candidate each year from here on out

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 05:34 PM
KOBEEEEEEEE hands down! kobeeeeeeeee gets its done when it matters, does 5 rings lie?

Considering this is based on last year alone, this is moot. Unless we want to make sure Derek Fisher is tops in the top point guard list.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:17 PM
And Kobe hasn't been leaps and bounds better in the playoffs the last two years than Harden either. It's not like he's been setting the world on fire .529 TS% and 22.4 PER.
Its more about their respective stats increasing in the playoffs whereas Hardens superior regular season efficiency didn't hold up in the PS. And I cant see Harden being a better defender when the games count. That gives a healthy Kobe the edge.

As for the numbers themselves, Kobe couldn't give Phil everything he had that last stand they had. Lockout year effected his tired legs but in the post season, with his revitalized/rehabbed legs, was a much stronger player. Obviously not the Kobe of old, but with how he played this year, he still deserves the nod over an inexperienced player.



I'd rather have Harden on my team now and next year, but I'd rather take a flier with Kobe for a playoff run. I guess abstaining from the vote makes even more sense.
Yup

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Its more about their respective stats increasing in the playoffs whereas Hardens superior regular season efficiency didn't hold up in the PS. And I cant see Harden being a better defender when the games count. That gives a healthy Kobe the edge.

As for the numbers themselves, Kobe couldn't give Phil everything he had that last stand they had. Lockout year effected his tired legs but in the post season, with his revitalized/rehabbed legs, was a much stronger player. Obviously not the Kobe of old, but with how he played this year, he still deserves the nod over an inexperienced player.


Yup

Harden's efficiency in the playoffs is fine. And he's not exactly inexperienced in the playoffs either.

Career TS percentage is 603
Playoff Advanced TS percentage is 599

It's a ridiculous assertion.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:24 PM
Harden's efficiency in the playoffs is fine.

Career TS percentage is 603
Playoff Advanced TS percentage is 599

It's a ridiculous assertion.

The only part of his career I care about is that part when he became a superstar player, as in the last 2 years. First 2 years are largely irrelevant to this discussion IMO. But he had a substantial drop in efficiency when asked to handle a 3rd role with OKC and a substantial drop "as the man" in Houston. And when your trademark advantage over a superior defender like Kobe is your efficiency, you have to do better than that.

If we go by careers, can I use championship Kobe?? The one who locked down come playoffs?

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 06:27 PM
The only part of his career I care about is that part when he became a superstar player, as in the last 2 years. First 2 years are largely irrelevant to this discussion IMO. But he had a substantial drop in efficiency when asked to handle a 3rd role with OKC and a substantial drop "as the man" in Houston. And when your trademark advantage over a superior defender like Kobe is your efficiency, you have to do better than that.


Of course he dropped. He was putting up a ridiculously high efficiency. 650. Martin putting up 600 in the same exact role.

He then went to 600 as the main guy. And was absolutely fine in the playoffs. It's easier to drop when you are that efficient. If you don't want his more efficient numbers because the drop is bigger, well, that's your prerogative, but you are wrong for it.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:30 PM
Harden was THE GUY most people expected to decline in the post season this year. (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?815120-Which-quot-Stars-quot-or-vital-players-will-go-ghost-these-playoffs)

Hes done it the last 2 years since hes burst onto the scene as a premier player. It was his first year leading a team so if ever there was a year for him to take his lumps it was last year.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 06:31 PM
Harden was THE GUY most people expected to decline in the post season this year. (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?815120-Which-quot-Stars-quot-or-vital-players-will-go-ghost-these-playoffs)

Hes done it the last 2 years since hes burst onto the scene as a premier player. It was his first year leading a team so if ever there was a year for him to take his lumps it was last year.

Wow. I can't believe you actually referred to this post. Are you serious? The hell Chronz?

Not only that, but you are complaining about a 600 and 550 TS percentage against elite defensive teams. This is a ridiculous argument you are making. Especially when you are referring to PSD threads.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:38 PM
Of course he dropped. He was putting up a ridiculously high efficiency. 650. Martin putting up 600 in the same exact role.
Is Martin suppose to be a barometer of some kind? Im not seeing how "of course it drops" exonerates him of his decline in performance.


He then went to 600 as the main guy. And was absolutely fine in the playoffs.
This would be a great point if I had said he wasn't "fine", but he wasn't Kobe.



It's easier to drop when you are that efficient.
Thus, you are less valuable when the games matter most. I disagree with you however, Im not convinced you know of any statistical trend, I think Harden will hold up much better in the future.


If you don't want his more efficient numbers because the drop is bigger, well, that's your prerogative, but you are wrong for it.
That would be a compelling argument, if I was convinced you knew to quantify a players worth. All I've ever seen from you tells me otherwise, I mean you're the same guy who thinks stats are only available to the public once someone publishes an article about them.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 06:41 PM
Is Martin suppose to be a barometer of some kind? Im not seeing how "of course it drops" exonerates him of his decline in performance.


This would be a great point if I had said he wasn't "fine", but he wasn't Kobe.



Thus, you are less valuable when the games matter most. I disagree with you however, Im not convinced you know of any statistical trend, I think Harden will hold up much better in the future.


That would be a compelling argument, if I was convinced you knew to quantify a players worth. All I've ever seen from you tells me otherwise, I mean you're the same guy who thinks stats are only available to the public once someone publishes an article about them.

1. I am not sure you realize how good a TS percentage of 650 is, but oh well.

2. Yes, he wasn't Kobe, he was better. By a fair margin too.

3. He's less valuable compared to himself, but crazy enough, he's still been better than Kobe in the playoffs. His last two years are far superior to Kobe's last year in the playoffs. Especially if we use the Thunder as the barometer because the Thunder had the same defensive efficiency and similar wing defense. Against that defense, Harden's TS was 550, Kobe's was 515.

4. Okay. Once you started using PSD threads as an argument you really lost any ability to say what I say doesn't matter.

Harden was worth 12.8 wins last year. Kobe was worth 10. That's despite Kobe getting more minutes and a similar usage rate.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:43 PM
Wow. I can't believe you actually referred to this post. Are you serious? The hell Chronz?

Not only that, but you are complaining about a 600 and 550 TS percentage against elite defensive teams. This is a ridiculous argument you are making. Especially when you are referring to PSD threads.
I didn't refer to a post, I referred to an entire thread littered with reputable posters who identified Harden. Is there some reason I should lend your opinion more credence?

And Im not complaining about any sort of statistical drop, you may think the game revolves solely around numbers but dont confine the argument of others within that limited spectrum.

But if you simply wish to discuss stats, show me the defense adjusted playoff numbers, thats actually part of the reason I go with Kobe. His entire career comprises of the strongest playoff defenses of any player, last I checked anyways.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 06:47 PM
I didn't refer to a post, I referred to an entire thread littered with reputable posters who identified Harden. Is there some reason I should lend your opinion more credence?

And Im not complaining about any sort of statistical drop, you may think the game revolves solely around numbers but dont confine the argument of others within that limited spectrum.

But if you simply wish to discuss stats, show me the defense adjusted playoff numbers, thats actually part of the reason I go with Kobe. His entire career comprises of the strongest playoff defenses of any player, last I checked anyways.


Kobe's defense was awful the last time he was in the playoffs.

There is no world that exists where Kobe's playoff performance against the Thunder is better than Harden's. There is no world where Kobe's entire 2011-2012 playoffs were better than Harden's last two years.

Kobe played awful defense and was less efficient than JR Smith but more efficient than Jennings vs the Thunder's defense. Harden had the same volume but scored much more efficiently vs the Thunder.

If we are going to pick now based on who you think would have performed better in the playoffs it's hand downs Harden. It's not close. It's not even close enough where an argument actually exists.

Using any kind of thread for ******** like that is nonsense. You are making an argument for a miniscule sample, a sample that doesn't even fit the argument. and then you are compounding this argument by saying other people think so too.


Jesus christ, dude.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 06:55 PM
1. I am not sure you realize how good a TS percentage of 650 is, but oh well.

LOL.... any ****** with access to BBR can look up its historical significance. Sadly for you, the argument is about their respective games dropping/shining when it matters most. Again, do not confine my entire argument to your tiny box. If you wish to have a statistical discussion then feel free to cite these playoff adjusted rates you have handy.


2. Yes, he wasn't Kobe, he was better. By a fair margin too.
Based on what?



3. He's less valuable compared to himself, but crazy enough, he's still been better than Kobe in the playoffs. His last two years are far superior to Kobe's last year in the playoffs. Especially if we use the Thunder as the barometer because the Thunder had the same defensive efficiency and similar wing defense. Against that defense, Harden's TS was 550, Kobe's was 515.
Crazy enough, your opinion cannot be passed off as fact. Harden was better with the Thunder if we completely ignore usage and context, which if you've been following Harden, should see that playing as the number 1 has stunted his efficiency.


4. Okay. Once you started using PSD threads as an argument you really lost any ability to say what I say doesn't matter.
Dont care. Its far less embarrassing than assuming common knowledge was only available when an article popped up.


Harden was worth 12.8 wins last year. Kobe was worth 10. That's despite Kobe getting more minutes and a similar usage rate.
I have a hard time believing 3 of those came on the defensive end. And if RS WS determined a players value, we'd have alot of explaining to do. Let me know when Harden translates that production into the playoffs, because I wont ignore the drag of being the primary option has on a players game.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:03 PM
Kobe's defense was awful the last time he was in the playoffs.
Nah


There is no world that exists where Kobe's playoff performance against the Thunder is better than Harden's. There is no world where Kobe's entire 2011-2012 playoffs were better than Harden's last two years.
I dont live in your world, in my world its very much a discussion, you're a stat pretender, PER/WS have different takes on the matter, so why is it out of the discussion?


Kobe played awful defense and was less efficient than JR Smith but more efficient than Jennings vs the Thunder's defense. Harden had the same volume but scored much more efficiently vs the Thunder.
So do you have the playoff adjusted rates? And how do you account for the loss of Westbrook? It gets tricky at this point so you can ignore it altogether or look at the raw stats. Choose 1 but I have no idea why you are bringing up irrelevant players who handle entirely different roles on their respective teams. Must be statinsanity.


If we are going to pick now based on who you think would have performed better in the playoffs it's hand downs Harden. It's not close. It's not even close enough where an argument actually exists.
Based on what?


Using any kind of thread for ******** like that is nonsense. You are making an argument for a miniscule sample, a sample that doesn't even fit the argument. and then you are compounding this argument by saying other people think so too.
Jesus christ, dude.

I dont think you have a good handle on the English language. Compounding this argument? Umm yea, the point of formulating a case is that you have a COMPOUNDED ARGUMENT. As in a combination of factors.

I cited the thread as proof that people foresaw his struggles in this new role. I dont know why you are making it out to be some sort of holy grail Im dependent on. LOL

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 07:05 PM
No **** playing as the number one option made him less efficient (still more efficient than Kobe.) How the hell does that make him worth less than Kobe? If he still has a similar usage with a higher efficiency why in the world would he be less than Kobe? Are you actually gonna sit here and tell me that Kobe's defense is the difference? Or that Kobe is still worth more wins despite every stat saying the opposite.

Wanting Kobe's last playoff run because his "efficiency" dropping less is rather, well, stupid. He went from 527 to 525 while only putting up 515 vs the Thunder.

Harden went from 600 to 550 with almost the same exact usage. You think Kobe's stats are more important even though they translated less to winning?

Picking a player for last year's playoff is a no brainer. It's Harden 9/10 times even with random variation. Harden was exactly one standard deviation away from his normal stats in the regular season and it still would have been more efficient than Kobe's. Hell, it led the Rockets to two wins while Kobe put up much worse stats and got only one win.

If you care about winning in the playoffs last year, you pick Harden. There is no argument.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 07:06 PM
Nah


I dont live in your world, in my world its very much a discussion, you're a stat pretender, PER/WS have different takes on the matter, so why is it out of the discussion?


So do you have the playoff adjusted rates? And how do you account for the loss of Westbrook? It gets tricky at this point so you can ignore it altogether or look at the raw stats. Choose 1 but I have no idea why you are bringing up irrelevant players who handle entirely different roles on their respective teams. Must be statinsanity.


Based on what?


I dont think you have a good handle on the English language. Compounding this argument? Umm yea, the point of formulating a case is that you have a COMPOUNDED ARGUMENT. As in a combination of factors.

I cited the thread as proof that people foresaw his struggles in this new role. I dont know why you are making it out to be some sort of holy grail Im dependent on. LOL

Yes, you compounded an extremely fallacious argument. That was a mistake to do so. It's reaching. It's dumb.

I also think it's laughable that you don't think the drop was anything more than random variation in his statistics. Especially since everything was the same except threes. And then guess what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaahcDNJNuo

There was regression to the mean on threes. If they were able to get to game seven there likely would have been more regression and things would have averaged out a bit. Like they always do for every single player in the playoffs, ever. (Except Joe Johnson)

It's obvious what you are saying it patently false about him dropping in the playoffs (especially given career numbers), but even if it wasn't, it would translate to more winning than Kobe's last playoff run regardless.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:09 PM
I didn't even address this point:


You are making an argument for a miniscule sample,
The most important sample yes.


a sample that doesn't even fit the argument.
It fits it perfectly, you dont define what argument Im making. Im making the argument that Kobe is a better playoff player, based on a reputation I feel he has earned and Hardens performance vs the Thunder didn't sway me. Its the same reason I had Dirk ahead of Love. This argument is not limited to statistics so assuming that I have to follow your argument is pretentious.



and then you are compounding this argument by saying other people think so too.
Better to compound an argument than compound ignorance.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:11 PM
yes, you compounded an extremely fallacious argument. That was a mistake to do so. It's reaching. It's dumb.

now dats more like it

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 07:14 PM
I didn't even address this point:


The most important sample yes.


It fits it perfectly, you dont define what argument Im making. Im making the argument that Kobe is a better playoff player, based on a reputation I feel he has earned and Hardens performance vs the Thunder didn't sway me. Its the same reason I had Dirk ahead of Love. This argument is not limited to statistics so assuming that I have to follow your argument is pretentious.



Better to compound an argument than compound ignorance.

My argument is pretentious. That doesn't make it less right.


Show me that Kobe would be worth more wins in the playoffs than Harden. Other than referencing a ****ing thread and pointing out Kobe has a good playoff reputation.

Show me with numbers. Otherwise you are speaking from an antiquated and outdated position that has no evidence or basis for it.

HOW PRETENTIOUS OF ME TO WANT EVIDENCE THOUGH

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:21 PM
No **** playing as the number one option made him less efficient (still more efficient than Kobe.)
Except in the postseason.


How the hell does that make him worth less than Kobe?
Because Kobe is likely to see his game heightened in the post season whereas Im not sure Harden can. Hes gone ghost to degrees Ive never seen from Kobe and I've seen nothing from him as the man to give him the benefit of the doubt.


If he still has a similar usage with a higher efficiency why in the world would he be less than Kobe? Are you actually gonna sit here and tell me that Kobe's defense is the difference? Or that Kobe is still worth more wins despite every stat saying the opposite.
Show me the playoff stats.



Wanting Kobe's last playoff run because his "efficiency" dropping less is rather, well, stupid. He went from 527 to 525 while only putting up 515 vs the Thunder.
LOL @ you limiting my argument to Kobe's efficiency dropping less. An even BIGGER LOL @ you limiting efficiency to the confines of TS%. LMFAO we are done here.


Harden went from 600 to 550 with almost the same exact usage. You think Kobe's stats are more important even though they translated less to winning?
What the **** are you talking about? You are making ZERO SENSE.

Are you comparing the entire playoff run or a single series? It seems like you go back and forth. No Harden did NOT have the same USAGE.

Kobes USAGE vs the Thunder was FAR higher than Hardens and his OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY was superior as well.



Picking a player for last year's playoff is a no brainer. It's Harden 9/10 times even with random variation. Harden was exactly one standard deviation away from his normal stats in the regular season and it still would have been more efficient than Kobe's. Hell, it led the Rockets to two wins while Kobe put up much worse stats and got only one win.

If you care about winning in the playoffs last year, you pick Harden. There is no argument.
Not convinced you know jack **** about stats bro. And if you isolated the series you seem intent on focusing on, then no, you would be *** backwards to think Harden's stats were more conducive to winning. This ignores Kobe's superior defense and leadership as well.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:23 PM
My argument is pretentious. That doesn't make it less right.
It makes it less convincing.



Show me that Kobe would be worth more wins in the playoffs than Harden. Other than referencing a ****ing thread and pointing out Kobe has a good playoff reputation.
Show me the playoff adjusted rates.

Chronz
07-17-2013, 07:29 PM
Got some chores to do, but if you want to continue this argument its important to recognize that my decision isn't just based on stats, so any statistical discussion has to stay within that framework. We are having a statistical discussion, not one that definitively proves an argument, so spare me the insults to my case. You wont convince anyone of anything if you leave no room for subjectivity.

That said, can you make the stat argument more clear?

Show me the numbers of what you are referencing because we dont have the same statistical views. What usage are you discussing? Show me the when and the what, which 2 sets are you examining.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 07:30 PM
A usage of 35 to 31 has such little difference it's not worth noting.


Kobe and Harden both only played one series vs the Thunder. They are the perfect reference point. If we are just going to use the whole playoffs over the last two years for Harden and Kobe you will find Kobe was much worse. I am doing this because this is when you said Harden became a superstar. So, if you want to
choose a different recent timeframe, that's fine also.

Year Kobe was Swept out By Dallas
TS 536, WS/48 of .099, WS .7 OTRG 105, DTRG 110

Year they lost to the Thunder
TS 525, WS/48 of .143, OTRG 109, DTRG 112
-------------------------------------------
Harden's Last year as a Thunder
TS 605, WS/48 of 184, WS 2.4, ORTG 118, DTRG 107

Harden the Year they got knocked by the Thunder
TS of 548, WS/48 of .100, WS .5, OTRG 105, DRTG 109

WS/48 factors in volume. So yes, it's not close. Harden was better in his last two playoff runs (That's how you want to define Harden's playoff years, right?)

rockets-fan
07-17-2013, 10:59 PM
Chromz believe it or not, some people think Kobe wasn't better than Harden last year, not everyone has to agree with you, you think Kobe was number 1 great cool move on. I agree there's a case for either three of those guys to be 1.

Bruno
07-17-2013, 11:05 PM
a vote for harden is premature.

lets see him put up a respectable post-season before we declare him the best sg in the nba.

kobe bryant was the best SG in the NBA last year.

Guppyfighter
07-17-2013, 11:57 PM
a vote for harden is premature.

lets see him put up a respectable post-season before we declare him the best sg in the nba.

kobe bryant was the best SG in the NBA last year.


That's an asinine thought process. First off, Harden put up decent efficiency numbers and even had an amazing game to keep them alive at one (7/9 on threes, 31 points) and Kobe didn't even play in the playoffs or was he capable of. And the last two years he did play in the playoffs he was far below Harden in any kind of metric stat despite having better teams in those playoff runs compared to Harden.

OceanSpray
07-18-2013, 12:10 AM
It was still Kobe imo. I can see the votes for Harden and truly shocked Wade didn't get more votes.

Swashcuff
07-18-2013, 09:53 AM
Nah


I dont live in your world, in my world its very much a discussion, you're a stat pretender, PER/WS have different takes on the matter, so why is it out of the discussion?


So do you have the playoff adjusted rates? And how do you account for the loss of Westbrook? It gets tricky at this point so you can ignore it altogether or look at the raw stats. Choose 1 but I have no idea why you are bringing up irrelevant players who handle entirely different roles on their respective teams. Must be statinsanity.


Based on what?


I dont think you have a good handle on the English language. Compounding this argument? Umm yea, the point of formulating a case is that you have a COMPOUNDED ARGUMENT. As in a combination of factors.

I cited the thread as proof that people foresaw his struggles in this new role. I dont know why you are making it out to be some sort of holy grail Im dependent on. LOL

And that right there folks is the absolute truth.

Chronz
07-18-2013, 09:56 AM
Chromz believe it or not, some people think Kobe wasn't better than Harden last year, not everyone has to agree with you, you think Kobe was number 1 great cool move on. I agree there's a case for either three of those guys to be 1.

What makes you think I dont know this?

Chronz
07-18-2013, 10:17 AM
A usage of 35 to 31 has such little difference it's not worth noting.
LMFAO thats like saying a difference of 55 and 60 ts% is negligible. Nice attempt to dodge an obvious miscalculation, check any efficiency-usage model and you will find the above example to be modest. Its definitely not negligible, particularly when you consider that he was MORE EFFICIENT in the process of being MORE PROLIFIC. And your pathetic argument falls apart at the seems



Kobe and Harden both only played one series vs the Thunder.
False, Kobe has faced the Thunder twice but we can ignore the year he won the chip.



They are the perfect reference point.
There is no PERFECT reference point, but it is one of the many we should focus on.



If we are just going to use the whole playoffs over the last two years for Harden and Kobe you will find Kobe was much worse.
Probably but Kobe was dealing with alot of injury woes in the "Final Stand" with Phil.


I am doing this because this is when you said Harden became a superstar. So, if you want to
choose a different recent timeframe, that's fine also.

The stats depict a clearly different player by that point, thats why its a good reference.


Year Kobe was Swept out By Dallas
TS 536, WS/48 of .099, WS .7 OTRG 105, DTRG 110

Look at that an, injured Kobe put up better production against the inevitable champion than Harden did vs a depleted Thunder team.



Year they lost to the Thunder
TS 525, WS/48 of .143, OTRG 109, DTRG 112
-------------------------------------------
So almost against the same team (Only minus Westbrook and Harden(obviously) for most of the Rox series) and Kobe YET AGAIN outpaces Harden.



Harden's Last year as a Thunder
TS 605, WS/48 of 184, WS 2.4, ORTG 118, DTRG 107
Would be curious to see the playoff adjusted rates on this one, but it does seem to be his best run. Contextually tho, it came as a third banana and represented a major fall in production that the team relied on, his inconsistencies and complete no show in the Finals aren't enough to sway me.


Harden the Year they got knocked by the Thunder
TS of 548, WS/48 of .100, WS .5, OTRG 105, DRTG 109
So the one you dubbed most comparable (that should favor Harden considering the Thunder's depleted state) still falls woefully short of Kobe's standard. How is it not close again?


WS/48 factors in volume. So yes, it's not close.
LMFAO ws/48 factors in volume? NEWSLASH, there is no concrete method for factoring volume, PER among many other linear weight based stats factor in volume as well, they STILL come to different conclusions. The reasons should be obvious. Also WS/48 factors in team defensive success, thus Id be more interested in their OWS/48.


Harden was better in his last two playoff runs (That's how you want to define Harden's playoff years, right?)
You've said nothing to back this up, if you look at Kobe's injured state then Harden might be better (the defensive and leadership qualities should still favor Kobe BTW), but when both are healthy, Harden has yet to prove up to the challenge, specifically as THE MAN. Let me know when he does that, then your argument might be worth a damn.

So to recap, an inferior producer who is also an inferior leader/defender, needs alot more than an inconsistent playoff run (in which he declined from RS form) to compare to a HEALTHY Kobe.