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Mile High Champ
07-15-2013, 02:27 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Tony Parker
3) Russel Westbrook
4) Stephen Curry
5) Kyrie Irving
6) Deron Williams
7) Rajon Rondo
8) Mike Conley
9) John Wall
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9) Kyle Lowry
10) Ty Lawson

2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
07-15-2013, 02:29 AM
Added Rubio to the poll by request and removed guards that did not get one vote in the last poll. Who gets the last spot?

Greet
07-15-2013, 02:44 AM
I have voted George Hill in the last 2 (or 3) polls, at this point I doubt he wins but he should get the #10 spot.

This isn't a vote for who is the best play maker in the league, it's about the top Point Guards. That is George Hill....

He passes well, shoots well, defends well and has leadership qualities. This should go to him

JOhnnyTHaJet
07-15-2013, 03:01 AM
Ty Lawson, been voting for him since the 8th spot. Apparently he's still very underrated around these parts.

Greet
07-15-2013, 03:07 AM
Ty Lawson, been voting for him since the 8th spot. Apparently he's still very underrated around these parts.

Ty Lawson: .549 TS%, .505 eFG%, 7.4 WS, .141 WS/48, OxRPM 2.9, DxRPM -2.3
George Hill: .558 TS%, .518 eFG%, 9.7 WS, .177 WS/48, OxRPM 2.3, DxRPM 0

Literally the only knock I've seen against George Hill is his lack of play making ability, but is that really holding him back from being a top PG in the league? I don't think so

5ass
07-15-2013, 03:20 AM
Jrue.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 03:51 AM
Okay. Anyone who votes Jrue is wrong. Doesn't matter.

aussie
07-15-2013, 04:47 AM
Jrue.

sunsfan88
07-15-2013, 04:59 AM
Tyyyy Lawson. Jrue wouldn't be a bad pick either but I'm going Lawson.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 06:37 AM
Jrue is a god awful pick.

bloomis1307
07-15-2013, 08:04 AM
So in the last poll it shows 19 for Jrue and 18 for wall?!?!

Corey
07-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Ty Lawson.

SteBO
07-15-2013, 08:37 AM
Ty Lawson.....his team actually made the playoffs.

dabeach87
07-15-2013, 08:50 AM
Jru eez top 10 pg dis yr nigi fek u fegit. Watch da game and madafek u stat men!

curtcocaine
07-15-2013, 09:00 AM
Steph curry /thread

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 09:17 AM
I have voted George Hill in the last 2 (or 3) polls, at this point I doubt he wins but he should get the #10 spot.

This isn't a vote for who is the best play maker in the league, it's about the top Point Guards. That is George Hill....

He passes well, shoots well, defends well and has leadership qualities. This should go to him

Of the passes on this list Hill is the worst, Jrue and Rubio are better defenders, Nash, Lillard and Lawson are better shooters and Jrue is comparable only reason his TS% was so poor is because of his complete and total inability to get to the line, Nash, Lawson, Rubio, Lillard and Jrue all have leadership qualities and depends on who you talk to either one of those guys can be described as the 2nd best leader of the bunch (no question Nash is number 1).

The only argument you have is statistically speaking not from the ability of a player, but from an advanced statistical standpoint. You got a strong argument no doubt but how about adding some context to that argument. Do you think Hill is better than Kyrie? Because he had better advanced metrics than him as well.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 09:24 AM
See my posts in the previous thread for Jrue. If you want to refute them post it here I have no problem defending my stance. Lawson isn't a bad choice here IMO his popularity hinges on the fact that he got better as the season progressed and Jrue digressed greatly and the fact that he made the playoffs.

sixers247
07-15-2013, 09:39 AM
I meant to vote for Lawson not Lillard if anyone can change that.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2013, 11:38 AM
as per usual, I go homer on #10 for any position.

Oefarmy2005
07-15-2013, 11:44 AM
Haha, same here. But I also don't see Conely or Wall really being better. I could argue Jrue, that's about it.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2013, 11:45 AM
Haha, same here. But I also don't see Conely or Wall really being better. I could argue Jrue, that's about it.

Well, Rubio's projected WARP is top 7 I believe.


If we want to go by the updated 2013 RAPM stats (yes I said updated, nerds!), then it would go:

Wall: 2.9
Hill: 2.3
Holiday: 0.7
Lillard: 0.6
Lawson: 0.6

Lowry and Rubio ahead of them all at 3.7 and 3.2 by the way. How did you Raps fans feel about Lowry this year from an eye test pov?

And the top 10 according to RAPM would've been:

1: Cp3
2: Westbrook
3: Conley
4: Curry
5: Lowry
6: Tony P
7: Rubio
8: J. Wall
9: George Hill
10: Deron Williams

Kyrie and Rondo registered as +players, but missed the top 10 cut.

edit: found Tre's post

aTinyPanda
07-15-2013, 11:50 AM
Had to vote Rubio after the travesty that was his exclusion from previous rounds of voting.

In all seriousness though I can see an argument for a couple of the other guys as well, especially Hill. I just think that Rubio's contributions on the defensive end greatly outweigh Hills. His passing and court vision are superior. The scoring will start to develop with time, but no denying he's deficient in that regard right now. Obviously a homer pick but not entirely unreasonable.

SportsFanatic10
07-15-2013, 11:58 AM
I have voted George Hill in the last 2 (or 3) polls, at this point I doubt he wins but he should get the #10 spot.

This isn't a vote for who is the best play maker in the league, it's about the top Point Guards. That is George Hill....

He passes well, shoots well, defends well and has leadership qualities. This should go to him

no way, he's not even a true point guard and as the heat showed in the playoffs he doesn't have the handles or composure of one when pressured he turns the ball over.

anyways, i'd take lawson here...

ManRam
07-15-2013, 12:37 PM
Stats like RAPM love Rubio. And understandably so. I just think he has too many tangible holes in his game right now for me to vote him over Lawson and Hill. It's close though.

And again, I've voting Lawson here because I just don't think it's Jrue and Ty is the guy that can beat him. I'd probably flip a coin anyways, so that's the default coin flipping.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-15-2013, 04:42 PM
Ty Lawson.....his team actually made the playoffs.

lol c'mon now. You put anyone on this list(outside of Nash and Jennings)the Nuggets are still in the playoffs and are still at least a top 4 seed.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 04:54 PM
George Hill puts up the best metrics here and only four votes.

Shame.

Mile High Champ
07-15-2013, 05:11 PM
Still going George Hill. Hill out performed both Wall, Lawson and Holiday in almost every important advanced statistic right/ Hill had the best TS%, eFG%, OTtg, TOV%, WS and WS/48 out of him, Holiday, Wall and Lawson. That is simply hard to ignore. Also he is the second best defender next to Holiday in the group which only increases his value more.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=holidjr01&y1=2013&p2=walljo01&y2=2013&p3=lawsoty01&y3=2013&p4=hillge01&y4=2013

Greet
07-15-2013, 05:13 PM
Still going George Hill. Hill out performed both Wall, Lawson and Holiday in almost every important advanced statistic right/ Hill had the best TS%, eFG%, OTtg, TOV%, WS and WS/48 out of him, Holiday, Wall and Lawson. That is simply hard to ignore. Also he is the second best defender next to Holiday in the group which only increases his value more.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=holidjr01&y1=2013&p2=walljo01&y2=2013&p3=lawsoty01&y3=2013&p4=hillge01&y4=2013

Yup, just because he isn't a play maker doesn't mean he didn't have an amazing season.

xxplayerxx23
07-15-2013, 05:17 PM
Ty Lawson: .549 TS%, .505 eFG%, 7.4 WS, .141 WS/48, OxRPM 2.9, DxRPM -2.3
George Hill: .558 TS%, .518 eFG%, 9.7 WS, .177 WS/48, OxRPM 2.3, DxRPM 0

Literally the only knock I've seen against George Hill is his lack of play making ability, but is that really holding him back from being a top PG in the league? I don't think so

Damn. Responded to the wrong post. George hill isn't a good passer was the point I was going to make/ he is essiently a 2 guard that is a greatdefender and good shooter. He is a nice fit for ist hit not a top 10 pg

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 05:28 PM
damn. Responded to the wrong post. George hill isn't a good passer was the point i was going to make/ he is essiently a 2 guard that is a greatdefender and good shooter. He is a nice fit for ist hit not a top 10 pg

woah he's not a good passer, clearly this outweighs everything else.

Craptors84
07-15-2013, 05:35 PM
How dafuq Jrue gon win the #9 spot, somehow NOT get it, then get out voted by Lawson who was 3rd in votes for #9 PG? All the Lawson AND Wall fans voting Lawson now I see. HATERRRS......

Chronz
07-15-2013, 05:37 PM
How dafuq Jrue gon win the #9 spot, somehow NOT get it, then get out voted by Lawson who was 3rd in votes for #9 PG? All the Lawson AND Wall fans voting Lawson now I see. HATERRRS......

Lesser of 2 evils. This boils down to how much you value Jrue's defense because his awfense if horrible.

JasonJohnHorn
07-15-2013, 05:45 PM
Poor Jrue Holiday! He's is one of only 5 point guards to be awarded a spot on an All-Star team, and he can't even finish in the top ten for PG voting? I mean, I would put Curry over him, and his All-Star co-horts, as well as D-Will and Rondo, but he at LEAST deserves a spot in the top ten!

Chronz
07-15-2013, 05:50 PM
Poor Jrue Holiday! He's is one of only 5 point guards to be awarded a spot on an All-Star team, and he can't even finish in the top ten for PG voting? I mean, I would put Curry over him, and his All-Star co-horts, as well as D-Will and Rondo, but he at LEAST deserves a spot in the top ten!

So you dont think Ty Lawson could make the All-Star team in the lEast?

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 05:52 PM
Poor Jrue Holiday! He's is one of only 5 point guards to be awarded a spot on an All-Star team, and he can't even finish in the top ten for PG voting? I mean, I would put Curry over him, and his All-Star co-horts, as well as D-Will and Rondo, but he at LEAST deserves a spot in the top ten!

Except, everyone that is voted over him is better.

This should let every Sixer fan know they ripped off the Pelicans.

mrblisterdundee
07-15-2013, 05:57 PM
Added Rubio to the poll by request and removed guards that did not get one vote in the last poll. Who gets the last spot?

How can you add Rubio and not Rose? The thread is simply about the best point guards in the NBA. It makes not a single mention of them having to have played the previous season. This poll just loses so much credibility by not having Rose as an option.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 05:58 PM
How can you add Rubio and not Rose? The thread is simply about the best point guards in the NBA. It makes not a single mention of them having to have played the previous season. This poll just loses so much credibility by not having Rose as an option.

You've been going on about this for a while. Shut the **** up.

aTinyPanda
07-15-2013, 06:10 PM
How can you add Rubio and not Rose? The thread is simply about the best point guards in the NBA. It makes not a single mention of them having to have played the previous season. This poll just loses so much credibility by not having Rose as an option.

Rubio played a good portion of last season. Rose, as I recall, played exactly zero games.

ManRam
07-15-2013, 06:26 PM
Poor Jrue Holiday! He's is one of only 5 point guards to be awarded a spot on an All-Star team, and he can't even finish in the top ten for PG voting? I mean, I would put Curry over him, and his All-Star co-horts, as well as D-Will and Rondo, but he at LEAST deserves a spot in the top ten!

Who cares if he was an all-star? Eastern Conference PGs weren't as competitive as WC point guards, and Holiday was putrid the second half of the season. He made the AS game because he was solid for 2+ months. But that doesn't magically mean he's better than PGs he's not actually better than.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 06:33 PM
Who cares if he was an all-star? Eastern Conference PGs weren't as competitive as WC point guards, and Holiday was putrid the second half of the season. He made the AS game because he was solid for 2+ months. But that doesn't magically mean he's better than PGs he's not actually better than.

Question do you remember Ty Lawson's start to the season? Every bit as putrid as Jrue's finish.

Ty's team made the post season and his solid play is fresher on our minds while Jrue's struggles are fresh on our minds. A holistic view of both their seasons indicates that Jrue was better than you are giving him credit for.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 06:34 PM
Question do you remember Ty Lawson's start to the season? Every bit as putrid as Jrue's finish.

Ty's team made the post season and his solid play is fresher on our minds while Jrue's struggles are fresh on our minds. A holistic view of both their seasons indicates that Jrue was better than you are giving him credit for.


Recency bias never happens with me. I use both their full seasons to evaluate them. He's not ******. Jrue is ******.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2013, 06:41 PM
How can you add Rubio and not Rose? The thread is simply about the best point guards in the NBA. It makes not a single mention of them having to have played the previous season. This poll just loses so much credibility by not having Rose as an option.

he didn't play a game. Obviously Rose will be up there again next year when we do this.

Craptors84
07-15-2013, 06:53 PM
Lesser of 2 evils. This boils down to how much you value Jrue's defense because his awfense if horrible.
Horrible? Thats a joke rite? Only thing it seemed he had to get better at was getting to the line more and sometimes with his shot selection. From what I seen and read tho, it seems like a lot has to do with Doug Collins **** offensive system. Jrue fell off cause homie was burnt out or proly unmotivated to bust his azz for dat weak squad that wasnt in the running for **** post All Star break. I dint watch much of him after the break, but wtf else? That boy was killin it prior, and is he's like 3 years younger than lawson. He basically WAS the offense at 21 or 22 or however young he is. He seemed to have imroves a lot as a passer, sick defense, can score from anywhere on and off the ball and finish strong with both hands.. **** that Jrue better get in this top 10 ppl! I proly trade Lowry AND Derozen for Jrue rite now.

ManRam
07-15-2013, 06:55 PM
Question do you remember Ty Lawson's start to the season? Every bit as putrid as Jrue's finish.

Ty's team made the post season and his solid play is fresher on our minds while Jrue's struggles are fresh on our minds. A holistic view of both their seasons indicates that Jrue was better than you are giving him credit for.

Sure. They each had a bad half. I'll sum it up like that.

Thing is, Ty was WAY better in 2011-2012 than both were last year. He's has been better than Holiday for the duration of their careers, be it last season (however close it was, and it was close) and every year before.

He's a better player. He's proven that. I love Holiday, and I think he still has more untapped upside to dip into...but he's not better than Ty right now.

WadeKobe
07-15-2013, 07:10 PM
Calderon

Chronz
07-15-2013, 07:26 PM
Horrible? Thats a joke rite? Only thing it seemed he had to get better at was getting to the line more and sometimes with his shot selection. From what I seen and read tho, it seems like a lot has to do with Doug Collins **** offensive system. Jrue fell off cause homie was burnt out or proly unmotivated to bust his azz for dat weak squad that wasnt in the running for **** post All Star break. I dint watch much of him after the break, but wtf else? That boy was killin it prior, and is he's like 3 years younger than lawson. He basically WAS the offense at 21 or 22 or however young he is. He seemed to have imroves a lot as a passer, sick defense, can score from anywhere on and off the ball and finish strong with both hands.. **** that Jrue better get in this top 10 ppl! I proly trade Lowry AND Derozen for Jrue rite now.
I can believe everything you said, if you're to ask me whos potential I like more, it would be Jrue, but to vote for Jrue for being unmotivated because of a bad team would be punishing Ty for winning. Ty had to adjust to Iggy presence initially, it took him time to get going but once he got going, Denver followed. They went as he went

Chronz
07-15-2013, 07:27 PM
Sure. They each had a bad half. I'll sum it up like that.

Thing is, Ty was WAY better in 2011-2012 than both were last year. He's has been better than Holiday for the duration of their careers, be it last season (however close it was, and it was close) and every year before.

He's a better player. He's proven that. I love Holiday, and I think he still has more untapped upside to dip into...but he's not better than Ty right now.

Agreed. As much as we want this to be about the now, we still have to rely on recent history to tell us about these players, and Ty's peak play has given him reason for the benefit of the doubt, especially in situations like this where the stats already support him.

ATX
07-15-2013, 09:07 PM
Call me crazy, but I got Lillard. Looks like he doesn't stand a chance though.

sc8581
07-15-2013, 09:11 PM
Call me crazy, but I got Lillard. Looks like he doesn't stand a chance though.

I just voted Lillard as well, I think he's a difference maker and the other guys need others to shine to help their games more.

mrblisterdundee
07-15-2013, 10:46 PM
You've been going on about this for a while. Shut the **** up.

I have a completely legitimate point. Rose is easily a top-five point guard.


Rubio played a good portion of last season. Rose, as I recall, played exactly zero games.

This thread makes absolutely no mention of how many games someone played last season as a requirement to them being on this list. It's asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards.

mrblisterdundee
07-15-2013, 10:51 PM
he didn't play a game. Obviously Rose will be up there again next year when we do this.

You didn't mention anywhere in this entire thread that the candidates had to play last season. You're just asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards, even if he didn't play in the 2012-13 season. If you're going to make such a specific caveat, then put it in the title or somewhere in the thread, as in: "#10 Point Guard in the NBA from the 2012-13 Season."

sunsfan88
07-15-2013, 10:53 PM
Yay Ty is winning like he should!

sunsfan88
07-15-2013, 10:54 PM
You didn't mention anywhere in this entire thread that the candidates had to play last season. You're just asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards, even if he didn't play in the 2012-13 season. If you're going to make such a specific caveat, then put it in the title or somewhere in the thread, as in: "#10 Point Guard in the NBA from the 2012-13 Season."

They make this thread every year in the off season. Its pretty obvious that its based off how players played last season.

Why else do you think Bynum won't be on the poll for centers?

Hawkeye15
07-15-2013, 11:14 PM
You didn't mention anywhere in this entire thread that the candidates had to play last season. You're just asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards, even if he didn't play in the 2012-13 season. If you're going to make such a specific caveat, then put it in the title or somewhere in the thread, as in: "#10 Point Guard in the NBA from the 2012-13 Season."

I didn't need to mention anything. The theme should be clear.

Allphakenny1
07-15-2013, 11:54 PM
I feel that in past years injured players were put on the poll. I may be wrong, but Yao Ming comes to mind when he barely played. I think the biggest strike against Rose is that he was medically cleared for months and refused to play because, in my opinion, he is mentally weak. So he has to prove he can physically and mentally come back from this injury before he is a tip 10 PG again.

Guppyfighter
07-16-2013, 12:00 AM
I have a completely legitimate point. Rose is easily a top-five point guard.



This thread makes absolutely no mention of how many games someone played last season as a requirement to them being on this list. It's asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards.

Are you ****ing serious right now?

b@llhog24
07-16-2013, 02:26 AM
You didn't mention anywhere in this entire thread that the candidates had to play last season. You're just asking for the best point guards, and Rose is one of the best point guards, even if he didn't play in the 2012-13 season. If you're going to make such a specific caveat, then put it in the title or somewhere in the thread, as in: "#10 Point Guard in the NBA from the 2012-13 Season."

Derrick Rose's stats Last year:
0ppg, 0apg, 0rpg.

Hez da bestest pint gard evuh!

Swashcuff
07-16-2013, 02:30 PM
Derrick Rose's stats Last year:
0ppg, 0apg, 0rpg.

Hez da bestest pint gard evuh!

Thank God this poll is over so that we don't have to listen to his bull anymore, sadly he'd probably do the same ish in the C thread with Bynum and the top 10-15 overall :mad:

dabeach87
07-17-2013, 12:49 PM
Im sed :( ma men Jru sposed to b top 10 in nbgay men fyuk dis! he tie wit ty........

Oefarmy2005
07-17-2013, 08:42 PM
If we just go based on last year, how is Vasquez not even in the conversation? We are taking 14 pts and 9+ assts per game.

IversonIsKrazy
07-23-2013, 08:37 PM
Jrue shouldve made the top 10 imo.

Guppyfighter
07-23-2013, 09:50 PM
Jrue shouldve made the top 10 imo.

Yeah, except he is no where near as good as anybody in the top ten.

Sportfan
07-24-2013, 02:27 AM
Lowry>all these options