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Mile High Champ
07-13-2013, 12:35 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Tony Parker
3) Russel Westbrook
4) Stephen Curry
5) Kyrie Irving
6) Deron Williams
7) Rajon Rondo
8) Mike Conley
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9) Kyle Lowry
10) Ty Lawson

2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
07-13-2013, 12:37 PM
Mods please sticky.

Greet
07-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Had to vote George Hill right here.

ManRam
07-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Things really tighten up now. I have Wall here, but little separates the rest of the guys, at all.

I could see legit arguments for any of the remaining choices, besides Nelson, Nash and to a lesser extent Kemba and Jennings, for the 10 spot.

I don't see much separating Lowry, Holiday, Hill, Lawson, Dragic, Teague, Lillard and Vasquez at 10.

Can someone explain to me how Holiday is so clearly better than Lawson, Teague, Lillard, and the rest? I'm so confused with he obsession of his.

Mile High Champ
07-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Hill is certainly in the discussion with Wall, Lawson and Holiday. 4 guy race in my opinion.

VCaintdead17
07-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Why not Lillard? High efficiency 20 ppg scorer, good passer. Just as good an option as anyone else on left.

StarvingKnick22
07-13-2013, 01:30 PM
Lillard. It's not hard to see that he's going to be at the top someday.

Sadds The Gr8
07-13-2013, 01:35 PM
Things really tighten up now. I have Wall here, but little separates the rest of the guys, at all.

I could see legit arguments for any of the remaining choices, besides Nelson, Nash and to a lesser extent Kemba and Jennings, for the 10 spot.

I don't see much separating Lowry, Holiday, Hill, Lawson, Dragic, Teague, Lillard and Vasquez at 10.

Can someone explain to me how Holiday is so clearly better than Lawson, Teague, Lillard, and the rest? I'm so confused with he obsession of his.

People just saw the 1st half of the season and his all-star appearance and fail to realize he fell off a cliff in the 2nd half.

Chronz
07-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Jrue has the 2-way versatility but lacks the efficiency and leadership

Hill is the efficient facilitator, versatile defender but lacks the creative playmaking

Lawson is the dynamic playmaker, can be very efficient+prolific when hes at his best, but hes also the worst defender of the bunch.


Wall had the worst season overall but dominated at the highest level during the 2nd half of the season when he was healthy. Im going against my own personal beliefs on this one (isolating 2nd halves and whatnot), possibly because I love the kids potential, so I get why he wouldn't be picked but I believe hes made the leap and will prove it once and for all this year. Great defender, great passer and his scoring is picking up finally.

His stats during the final half of his season read like this:



MP TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg
35.8 .548 .478 3.1 12.2 7.5 42.0 2.2 1.7 11.5 30.4 114 104

And it coincided with his teams offense and defense doing a complete 180 so Im a big believer in this kid. But at the same time, I remember when I thought this way about the baby bulls when Tyson and Eddy Curry were beasting during irrelevant basketball games.

ManRam
07-13-2013, 01:48 PM
People just saw the 1st half of the season and his all-star appearance and fail to realize he fell off a cliff in the 2nd half.

I think people just see 18-8 too and think that's amazing. Look, I think he's a solid player, especially defensively, but I think any of these PGs could go 18-8 if they're playing 38 minutes a game, putting up 17 shots a game and dominating ball possession as much as him. He's so inefficient and he's a TO machine. He's got the worst AST/TO ratio of anyone up for vote, and if you rate-adjust his assists they're far less impressive.

Love 'em or hate 'em, the advanced stats just get uglier too. 21st among PGs in PER, and like a billionth among PGs in WS/48 and even WS.


There's literally nothing Holiday does better than Wall, besides three-point shooting and defending. And Wall isn't far behind at all in that regard. Wall is a better scorer, a more efficient scorer, a better passer, a better ball-handler, a better rebounder, a better shot-blocker, a better FT shooter and so on and so on.

Hawkeye15
07-13-2013, 02:14 PM
Wall for me. I am inclined to believe his 2nd half was a preview of things to come.

Again, not that I think Rubio should be in the top 10 at all, but how is he not even getting in the poll with some of that garbage?

Ezio
07-13-2013, 02:38 PM
Wall for me. I am inclined to believe his 2nd half was a preview of things to come.

Again, not that I think Rubio should be in the top 10 at all, but how is he not even getting in the poll with some of that garbage?

No Rose... I better not see Love/Bynum/Rubio then.

5ass
07-13-2013, 03:02 PM
No Rose... I better not see Love/Bynum/Rubio then.

Rubio actually played.

sunsfan88
07-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Things really tighten up now. I have Wall here, but little separates the rest of the guys, at all.

I could see legit arguments for any of the remaining choices, besides Nelson, Nash and to a lesser extent Kemba and Jennings, for the 10 spot.

I don't see much separating Lowry, Holiday, Hill, Lawson, Dragic, Teague, Lillard and Vasquez at 10.

Can someone explain to me how Holiday is so clearly better than Lawson, Teague, Lillard, and the rest? I'm so confused with he obsession of his.

It's cause people see that he's been an All Star and automatically assume he's better than the others.

slaker619
07-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Nash still one of the best passers #NoLie

b@llhog24
07-13-2013, 04:10 PM
Hill or Lawson.

I Rock Shaqs
07-13-2013, 04:56 PM
Was going to go with Jrue but Lillard has the ability to take over a game.

tredigs
07-13-2013, 05:28 PM
If we want to go by the updated 2013 RAPM stats (yes I said updated, nerds!), then it would go:

Wall: 2.9
Hill: 2.3
Holiday: 0.7
Lillard: 0.6
Lawson: 0.6

Lowry and Rubio ahead of them all at 3.7 and 3.2 by the way. How did you Raps fans feel about Lowry this year from an eye test pov?

And the top 10 according to RAPM would've been:

1: Cp3
2: Westbrook
3: Conley
4: Curry
5: Lowry
6: Tony P
7: Rubio
8: J. Wall
9: George Hill
10: Deron Williams

Kyrie and Rondo registered as +players, but missed the top 10 cut.

ManRam
07-13-2013, 05:46 PM
If we want to go by the updated 2013 RAPM stats (yes I said updated, nerds!), then it would go:

Wall: 2.9
Hill: 2.3
Holiday: 0.7
Lillard: 0.6
Lawson: 0.6

Lowry and Rubio ahead of them all at 3.7 and 3.2 by the way. How did you Raps fans feel about Lowry this year from an eye test pov?

And the top 10 according to RAPM would've been:

1: Cp3
2: Westbrook
3: Conley
4: Curry
5: Lowry
6: Tony P
7: Rubio
8: J. Wall
9: George Hill
10: Deron Williams

Kyrie and Rondo registered as +players, but missed the top 10 cut.

Good looks. I would have actually flipped a coin between Hill and Wall in reality, but I voted for Wall just because he's the only one of the two that could beat the less-deserving Holiday. But looking back it probably isn't a coin flip.

9. Firmly Wall
10. Firmly Hill
11. Doesn't matter because we don't go to 11.


And more proof that Rubio's exclusion is just silly.

Mile High Champ
07-13-2013, 07:15 PM
No Rose... I better not see Love/Bynum/Rubio then.

Rubio and Love both played this year. Bynum won't be on the poll this season.

Hawkeye15
07-13-2013, 07:51 PM
No Rose... I better not see Love/Bynum/Rubio then.

Rose didn't play a minute. I agree with your Bynum call though.

Hawkeye15
07-13-2013, 07:52 PM
If we want to go by the updated 2013 RAPM stats (yes I said updated, nerds!), then it would go:

Wall: 2.9
Hill: 2.3
Holiday: 0.7
Lillard: 0.6
Lawson: 0.6

Lowry and Rubio ahead of them all at 3.7 and 3.2 by the way. How did you Raps fans feel about Lowry this year from an eye test pov?

And the top 10 according to RAPM would've been:

1: Cp3
2: Westbrook
3: Conley
4: Curry
5: Lowry
6: Tony P
7: Rubio
8: J. Wall
9: George Hill
10: Deron Williams

Kyrie and Rondo registered as +players, but missed the top 10 cut.

self validation for my Rubio call out!

Chronz
07-13-2013, 09:52 PM
If we want to go by the updated 2013 RAPM stats (yes I said updated, nerds!), then it would go:

Wall: 2.9
Hill: 2.3
Holiday: 0.7
Lillard: 0.6
Lawson: 0.6

Lowry and Rubio ahead of them all at 3.7 and 3.2 by the way. How did you Raps fans feel about Lowry this year from an eye test pov?

And the top 10 according to RAPM would've been:

1: Cp3
2: Westbrook
3: Conley
4: Curry
5: Lowry
6: Tony P
7: Rubio
8: J. Wall
9: George Hill
10: Deron Williams

Kyrie and Rondo registered as +players, but missed the top 10 cut.
Had a feeling wall would fair well here, the raw numbers didn't favor him much and its a limited sample no doubt but its a start.

Good to see Lowry shine too. The story line and raw record painted another story. I remember Croon tea bagging him

ManRam
07-13-2013, 10:35 PM
15 votes for Holiday but not one person posting saying they did let alone explaining why. :laugh2:

Anyone volunteer?

More-Than-Most
07-13-2013, 11:01 PM
The fact that Holiday is not a top 10 point guard in most peoples eyes makes me feel even better about our recent trade. I am a big Holiday fan by the way but damn I figured he would be in the top 8 in these polls.

ManRam
07-13-2013, 11:09 PM
The fact that Holiday is not a top 10 point guard in most peoples eyes makes me feel even better about our recent trade. I am a big Holiday fan by the way but damn I figured he would be in the top 8 in these polls.

I never got why 76ers fans didn't like that trade. Maybe the initial sting of realizing that you aren't going to be contending, especially after Bynum + 2012-13 expectations, but it was both the right direction to go as a team and quite a haul.


Maybe I'm getting carried away, but I do really think that whatever separates Holiday from whoever would theoretically get voted in at 13-14 is very little IMO.

Greet
07-14-2013, 04:19 AM
I never got why 76ers fans didn't like that trade. Maybe the initial sting of realizing that you aren't going to be contending, especially after Bynum + 2012-13 expectations, but it was both the right direction to go as a team and quite a haul.


Maybe I'm getting carried away, but I do really think that whatever separates Holiday from whoever would theoretically get voted in at 13-14 is very little IMO.

Well 76ers fans had very high hopes of Jrue becoming a superstar. They thought his development was going well and according to plan.

Guppyfighter
07-14-2013, 05:27 AM
LOL is Jrue seriously being voted right now?

ManRam
07-14-2013, 09:16 AM
LOL is Jrue seriously being voted right now?

yup, and we still don't have a single person saying why, let alone stating that they voted for him...

aTinyPanda
07-14-2013, 12:20 PM
lol this vote is a joke without Rubio included. Especially when you've got guys like Holliday, Jennings, and Nash getting votes for 9th best. Oh lawdy. I've got Wall here, all things considered. Could easily go with Lowry tho. Just personal preference.

Chronz
07-14-2013, 01:37 PM
Airevo76, Allphakenny1, B'sCeltsPatsSox, BHF, bholly, bloomis1307, Craptors84, dabeach87, dcomerford, Ebbs, jimm120, Jumba, NBA-GMaster, NYKalltheway, OKC, questkat, spammails, Swashcuff, xxplayerxx23


$KnicksAndKobe$, 5ass, aTinyPanda, Bruno87, BullsNumber1Fan, ChiSox219, Chronz, EL HEAT, Hawkeye15, Iggz53, J_M_B, Lucky., ManRamForPrez24, mrblisterdundee, NYYCowboys, Saddler The Gr8, sunsfan88, tredigs

This vote was decided by some guy named spammails. Who the hell is that?

Ive been here a long time and I dont recognize the non bolded names, if we go by posters I deem reputable, Wall wins. dabeach has zero posts.

Let us not allow spam guy and zero post guy to decide. A REVOTE should be in order. Everyone who voted for Wall seems to have more activity.

Lucky.
07-14-2013, 01:40 PM
Airevo76, Allphakenny1, B'sCeltsPatsSox, BHF, bholly, bloomis1307, Craptors84, dabeach87, dcomerford, Ebbs, jimm120, Jumba, NBA-GMaster, NYKalltheway, OKC, questkat, spammails, Swashcuff, xxplayerxx23


$KnicksAndKobe$, 5ass, aTinyPanda, Bruno87, BullsNumber1Fan, ChiSox219, Chronz, EL HEAT, Hawkeye15, Iggz53, J_M_B, Lucky., ManRamForPrez24, mrblisterdundee, NYYCowboys, Saddler The Gr8, sunsfan88, tredigs

This vote was decided by some guy named spammails. Who the hell is that?

Ive been here a long time and I dont recognize the non bolded names, if we go by posters I deem reputable, Wall wins. dabeach has zero posts.

Let us not allow spam guy to decide. REVOTE should be in order.

I was the guy that had TMac in the ATRD :(

Guppyfighter
07-14-2013, 05:48 PM
I believe this is arguably the worst choice.

sunsfan88
07-14-2013, 07:05 PM
I voted for Wall but I understand if Lawson won it too.

Should be either Wall or Lawson here.

ManRam
07-14-2013, 07:07 PM
Airevo76, Allphakenny1, B'sCeltsPatsSox, BHF, bholly, bloomis1307, Craptors84, dabeach87, dcomerford, Ebbs, jimm120, Jumba, NBA-GMaster, NYKalltheway, OKC, questkat, spammails, Swashcuff, xxplayerxx23


$KnicksAndKobe$, 5ass, aTinyPanda, Bruno87, BullsNumber1Fan, ChiSox219, Chronz, EL HEAT, Hawkeye15, Iggz53, J_M_B, Lucky., ManRamForPrez24, mrblisterdundee, NYYCowboys, Saddler The Gr8, sunsfan88, tredigs

This vote was decided by some guy named spammails. Who the hell is that?

Ive been here a long time and I dont recognize the non bolded names, if we go by posters I deem reputable, Wall wins. dabeach has zero posts.

Let us not allow spam guy and zero post guy to decide. A REVOTE should be in order. Everyone who voted for Wall seems to have more activity.

Yeah! I demand a recount!!

Chronz
07-14-2013, 08:24 PM
I was the guy that had TMac in the ATRD :(

Get an avatar

Swashcuff
07-14-2013, 09:15 PM
I voted Jrue why? Cuz I'm going homer.

Why else? Because watching Jrue play for the entirety of last season I can say as a two way player no one was better than Jrue (well maybe Wall).

How many players this season had to carry the type of load Jrue had for his team this past season?

In 2012 he was his teams 3rd offensive option (after Lou and Thad) last season he was #1. In 2012 Andre Iguodala was the primary play maker last season that was his responsibility. In 2012 Elton Brand and Andre Iguodala were the team defensive anchors last season he was the anchor (at the PG).

When you look at his advanced statistical production at the end of the season (or lack there of) of course nothing would stand out to you, a combination of fatigue and teams adjusting to the 76ers offense the 2nd and 3rd times around saw Jrue see a major drop in production (at one point his PER was over 20) in the 2nd half. This should absolutely be held against him since this is based on the entire season but when you have a MUCH lighter burden than Jrue did (as was the case of every PG not named Jrue in the NBA this season) its easier to have a better run against teams the 2nd, 3rd and 4th go around. Jrue didn't have that luxury.

Anywho I'll make my statistical case.

My personal measure of overall offensive value to a team (AKA offensive burden).


PPG 2FG 3FG 2+3 APG+PPG
Jrue 17.8 5.8 2.0 17.6 35.4
Lillard 19.2 4.4 2.0 14.8 34.0
Wall 18.9 5.1 2.3 17.1 36.0
Lawson 16.7 4.8 1.9 15.3 32.0

Now as you can see the only player that accounted for more of their team's offense than Jrue with their combined play making and assists was Wall, this however is after Wall played the best basketball of his life for an decent stretch and Jrue played an entire season falling away as it progressed. At one point during the season he was 2nd to all PGs in this regard (after Westy) with over 40 points per game and accounted for the greatest percentage of his teams offense of any point guard in the NBA.

So yeah Jrue tailed off greatly as the season progressed and should be punished for it so I have no problem with voters choosing a couple guys ahead of him here but to act as though he had no argument is ludicrious IMO.

Wanna talk about his advanced metrics, fine but when you do so remember the effect that poor support has on your scoring efficiency, hell not just that but your DRtg and ORtg (thus directly affecting your WS).

So yeah I'm going against the norm here because I'm not just going by the advanced metrics at BBREF but rather taking a more holistic look at Jrue's game (his overall game).

I can buy a vote for Lillard, Lawson or Wall but Hill? Really George Hill better than those guys? Really. Place Holiday on the Pacers and they're a better team (he literally does everything on the basketball floor better than Hill), same goes for Lillard, Lawson, Wall, Lowry etc. I really can't get on board with taking the sole advanced statistical approach while ignoring more important factors.

Swashcuff
07-14-2013, 09:35 PM
I think people just see 18-8 too and think that's amazing. Look, I think he's a solid player, especially defensively, but I think any of these PGs could go 18-8 if they're playing 38 minutes a game, putting up 17 shots a game and dominating ball possession as much as him. He's so inefficient and he's a TO machine. He's got the worst AST/TO ratio of anyone up for vote, and if you rate-adjust his assists they're far less impressive.

Love 'em or hate 'em, the advanced stats just get uglier too. 21st among PGs in PER, and like a billionth among PGs in WS/48 and even WS.


There's literally nothing Holiday does better than Wall, besides three-point shooting and defending. And Wall isn't far behind at all in that regard. Wall is a better scorer, a more efficient scorer, a better passer, a better ball-handler, a better rebounder, a better shot-blocker, a better FT shooter and so on and so on.

And I think not. Are there those that can do it? Sure. Who are they? John Wall MAYBE Ty Lawson. Who else.

This assist/to stat IMO is one of the most misleading ones around.

Let's compare the actual passing/assists stats of the players who received votes on this poll.


Assists PassTOs Ast/BadPass PassRtg AST%
Lawson 500 106 4.7 13.1 30.2
Wall 372 91 4.1 11.6 43.9
Holiday 625 156 4.0 10.4 36.5
Nash 333 95 3.3 10.0 32.8
Brandon 521 115 4.5 9.4 29.1
Hill 355 66 5.2 7.4 23.4
Lillard 531 159 3.3 7.4 28.8

Statistically speaking this past season Jrue was arguably the 2nd best passer among all those receiving votes on this poll. Of course Calderon and Vasquez are better passers than he was as well but IMO if you want to look at passing/assists from a statistical POV I don't see how his AST/TO (many TOs aren't caused by bad passes so that's a foolish "stat" if you ask me). I mean seriously more than a third of the turnovers caused by PGs aren't a result of poor passing (in the case of Rubio and Nash not really poor passing but immaculate vision that their teammates don't get) so why compare them both.

Jrue is a MUCH better passer than he was given credit for.

Mile High Champ
07-15-2013, 02:25 AM
Due to Holiday having some suspect voters, Wall wins the poll.

YouCan'tBeatLA
07-15-2013, 03:59 AM
Due to Holiday having some suspect voters, Wall wins the poll.

Why don't you pull down Chronz's panties while you're at it? What a joke.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 04:08 AM
And I think not. Are there those that can do it? Sure. Who are they? John Wall MAYBE Ty Lawson. Who else.

This assist/to stat IMO is one of the most misleading ones around.

Let's compare the actual passing/assists stats of the players who received votes on this poll.


Assists PassingTOs Ast/BadPass PassRtg AST%
Lawson 500 106 4.7 13.1 30.2
Wall 372 91 4.1 11.6 43.9
Holiday 625 156 4.0 10.4 36.5
Nash 333 95 3.3 10 32.8
Jennings 521 115 4.5 9.4 29.1
Hill 355 66 5.2 7.4 23.4
Lillard 531 159 3.3 7.4 28.8

Statistically speaking this past season Jrue was arguably the 2nd best passer among all those receiving votes on this poll. Of course Calderon and Vasquez are better passers than he was as well but IMO if you want to look at passing/assists from a statistical POV I don't see how his AST/TO (many TOs aren't caused by bad passes so that's a foolish "stat" if you ask me). I mean seriously more than a third of the turnovers caused by PGs aren't a result of poor passing (in the case of Rubio and Nash not really poor passing but immaculate vision that their teammates don't get) so why compare them both.

Jrue is a MUCH better passer than he was given credit for.


Okay. If you want to lose more than Jrue is a great choice for number nine.

sunsfan88
07-15-2013, 05:02 AM
Why don't you pull down Chronz's panties while you're at it? What a joke.

Stay classy Laker fans.

YouCan'tBeatLA
07-15-2013, 06:22 AM
Stay classy Laker fans.

No one likes you.

b@llhog24
07-15-2013, 07:50 AM
No one likes you.

Ironic.

dabeach87
07-15-2013, 09:06 AM
mi men Jru sposed to win dis shet. FUUUUUUU.....

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 09:20 AM
Okay. If you want to lose more than Jrue is a great choice for number nine.

Funny that you'd say something so ignorant and stupid. Jrue was the 3rd most clutch (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) PG in the lead last season and after Kyrie and Paul lead all PGs in game winning and go ahead shots. He came up big when it mattered more times than not, that's the true trademark of a loser right.

Honestly speaking though aren't you tired of replying to my posts about Jrue having you argument COMPLETELY SHREDDED to bits and then running for the hills with your tail between your legs? Stop replying to me 1. if you can't be holistic and 2. if you're going to run away like a child when all your points have been refuted.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 11:16 AM
Why don't you pull down Chronz's panties while you're at it? What a joke.
uhh I asked for a revote between the 2 players and hopefully more of PSD participates, preferably people who actually contribute to this forum.

What a joke? LOL calm down guy, you didn't even vote so why do you even have a stake in this?

Chronz
07-15-2013, 11:22 AM
I voted Jrue why?
Because of a subjective argument about his efficiency. Essentially you voted him because you think hes held up the best given his load, which could very well be true and with some support in NO, we should expect a massive improvement in that regard, its just hard to buy that argument given that you just admitted he was a secondary/third option last year and was equally inefficient.

That hes sustained his already paltry efficiency with a bigger load can be a sign of improvement, but you should be able to see why its not the kind of improvement that really turns head and to some, wont exonerate poor efficiency. When he ran the offense 2 years ago, Doug chose to take the ball out of his hands midway through the year and hand the keys over Iggy, thats when the team took off. So to me, hes still very much unproven as a PG.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 11:25 AM
mi men Jru sposed to win dis shet. FUUUUUUU.....

Dabeach vote should count, hes now posted 7 times this month, a future contributor shouldn't be shunned away, RECOUNT.

sunsfan88
07-15-2013, 04:36 PM
uhh I asked for a revote between the 2 players and hopefully more of PSD participates, preferably people who actually contribute to this forum.

What a joke? LOL calm down guy, you didn't even vote so why do you even have a stake in this?

He still mad about Dwight.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 06:27 PM
Because of a subjective argument about his efficiency. Essentially you voted him because you think hes held up the best given his load, which could very well be true and with some support in NO, we should expect a massive improvement in that regard, its just hard to buy that argument given that you just admitted he was a secondary/third option last year and was equally inefficient.

That hes sustained his already paltry efficiency with a bigger load can be a sign of improvement, but you should be able to see why its not the kind of improvement that really turns head and to some, wont exonerate poor efficiency. When he ran the offense 2 years ago, Doug chose to take the ball out of his hands midway through the year and hand the keys over Iggy, thats when the team took off. So to me, hes still very much unproven as a PG.

The point in which I made was the fact that his advanced metrics were lacking due to the fact that he indeed had to carry such a load. IMO that theory has great truth to it and I saw it unfolding night in night out when I watched his team play.

For your Iggy point, weren't you the very same poster who started a thread 2 years ago about Iggy's insane passing efficiency? Now tell me this, you have a 2nd year score 1st PG on your roster and the most efficient passer at the SF not named LeBron on your team what would be your philosophy on how (or from whom) the offense should be ran? Let's not speak of it as if it was a result of Jrue performing badly so they took a fly with Iggy, if anything it shows Jrue's versatility to be able to play both roles. Had it been Wall, Hill, Lawson, Lowry, Lillard etc on the 76ers at that time the very same would have been implemented. Would you consider them unproven PGs as a result of that?

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 06:31 PM
The point in which I made was the fact that his advanced metrics were lacking due to the fact that he indeed had to carry such a load. IMO that theory has great truth to it and I saw it unfolding night in night out when I watched his team play.

For your Iggy point, weren't you the very same poster who started a thread 2 years ago about Iggy's insane passing efficiency? Now tell me this, you have a 2nd year score 1st PG on your roster and the most efficient passer at the SF not named LeBron on your team what would be your philosophy on how (or from whom) the offense should be ran? Let's not speak of it as if it was a result of Jrue performing badly so they took a fly with Iggy, if anything it shows Jrue's versatility to be able to play both roles. Had it been Wall, Hill, Lawson, Lowry, Lillard etc on the 76ers at that time the very same would have been implemented. Would you consider them unproven PGs as a result of that?

His advanced metrics sucked even when Philly had a good team. A player can't be a great player or a good player if they can't handle a bigger workload and get severely worse over it. You can't fake good advanced stats if you are not a good player. If you are a good player you will get good advanced stats. Regardless of the situation. Say Kevin Love for example. His stats were never really bad on bad teams.

Jrue Holiday barely put up his stats though. He had the biggest drop in the league for efficiency when playing top eight defenses and the biggest gain in the league playing against bottom eight defenses.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 06:44 PM
His advanced metrics sucked even when Philly had a good team. A player can't be a great player or a good player if they can't handle a bigger workload and get severely worse over it. You can't fake good advanced stats if you are not a good player. If you are a good player you will get good advanced stats. Regardless of the situation. Say Kevin Love for example. His stats were never really bad on bad teams.

Wait what year are we talking about again? Are we talking about 3rd option, secondary play maker 19, 20 year old Jrue Holiday or the dude last season who proved to be one of the most improved players in the league making the all star team.

Kevin Love is a PF, Jrue Holiday is a PG you realize the difference in comparison for the advanced metrics who play positions that differ as much as the PF and PG do right? You do understand that that argument is one huge hole right?

But since you want to talk Timberwolves big men lets talk, take another Kevin into consideration. Garnett, when exactly did Kevin Garnett have the best advanced statistical year of his career? When exactly did KG win his MVP, what was the difference between those teams and the others in which he played before, do you think it was a complete fluke that KG played his best offensively when Cassell and Spree arrived? Sure KGs advanced metrics were good but they weren't top 20 player all time good.

What about defensively, what year did KG peak defensively? What year did he win the DPOY award, wasn't it when he had the best defensive supporting cast and coaching of his career? Him leading the league in DRtg for the 1st time in his career clearly suggests that.


Jrue Holiday barely put up his stats though. He had the biggest drop in the league for efficiency when playing top eight defenses and the biggest gain in the league playing against bottom eight defenses.

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't bring that garbage argument or that horrendous article into our discussion once more, I already shredded it to bits don't try to prove anything by stating baseless untruth's.

If anything your posts are indicative of someone who doesn't understand the stats in which they are quoting how they are found or what they represent. You see them on a couple sites you found via google and as a result you form an opinion.That "article" showed how little that opinion counted.

You know what on 2nd thought bring back that argument so I can dice it up a bit more, can't find the thread that I slaughtered those posts in last time :laugh2:

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:13 PM
Funny that you'd say something so ignorant and stupid. Jrue was the 3rd most clutch (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) PG in the lead last season and after Kyrie and Paul lead all PGs in game winning and go ahead shots. He came up big when it mattered more times than not, that's the true trademark of a loser right.

Honestly speaking though aren't you tired of replying to my posts about Jrue having you argument COMPLETELY SHREDDED to bits and then running for the hills with your tail between your legs? Stop replying to me 1. if you can't be holistic and 2. if you're going to run away like a child when all your points have been refuted.


LOL @ you thinking clutch stats mean anything.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:14 PM
Funny that you'd say something so ignorant and stupid. Jrue was the 3rd most clutch (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) PG in the lead last season and after Kyrie and Paul lead all PGs in game winning and go ahead shots. He came up big when it mattered more times than not, that's the true trademark of a loser right.

Honestly speaking though aren't you tired of replying to my posts about Jrue having you argument COMPLETELY SHREDDED to bits and then running for the hills with your tail between your legs? Stop replying to me 1. if you can't be holistic and 2. if you're going to run away like a child when all your points have been refuted.

I am not sure why you keep saying you win any argument for Jrue. You are offering nothing but speculation and useless statistics.

We know he's bad. Any objective measure shows that. Whether you choose to accept that or not shows whether or not you are a homer towards Jrue.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 07:17 PM
The point in which I made was the fact that his advanced metrics were lacking due to the fact that he indeed had to carry such a load. IMO that theory has great truth to it and I saw it unfolding night in night out when I watched his team play.
But none of this is really fact tho, you didn't address the issue with last years inefficiency.


For your Iggy point, weren't you the very same poster who started a thread 2 years ago about Iggy's insane passing efficiency? Now tell me this, you have a 2nd year score 1st PG on your roster and the most efficient passer at the SF not named LeBron on your team what would be your philosophy on how (or from whom) the offense should be ran? Let's not speak of it as if it was a result of Jrue performing badly so they took a fly with Iggy, if anything it shows Jrue's versatility to be able to play both roles.
Solid reasoning, I just like my PG's to run a high level offense not hold back a mediocre one, tho I can see why that doesn't fall solely on Jrue.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:17 PM
Wait what year are we talking about again? Are we talking about 3rd option, secondary play maker 19, 20 year old Jrue Holiday or the dude last season who proved to be one of the most improved players in the league making the all star team.

Kevin Love is a PF, Jrue Holiday is a PG you realize the difference in comparison for the advanced metrics who play positions that differ as much as the PF and PG do right? You do understand that that argument is one huge hole right?

But since you want to talk Timberwolves big men lets talk, take another Kevin into consideration. Garnett, when exactly did Kevin Garnett have the best advanced statistical year of his career? When exactly did KG win his MVP, what was the difference between those teams and the others in which he played before, do you think it was a complete fluke that KG played his best offensively when Cassell and Spree arrived? Sure KGs advanced metrics were good but they weren't top 20 player all time good.

What about defensively, what year did KG peak defensively? What year did he win the DPOY award, wasn't it when he had the best defensive supporting cast and coaching of his career? Him leading the league in DRtg for the 1st time in his career clearly suggests that.



Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't bring that garbage argument or that horrendous article into our discussion once more, I already shredded it to bits don't try to prove anything by stating baseless untruth's.

If anything your posts are indicative of someone who doesn't understand the stats in which they are quoting how they are found or what they represent. You see them on a couple sites you found via google and as a result you form an opinion.That "article" showed how little that opinion counted.

You know what on 2nd thought bring back that argument so I can dice it up a bit more, can't find the thread that I slaughtered those posts in last time :laugh2:

I know I have to make this comment. What the **** is wrong with you? You think you shredded that argument? Is that how you go about any argument? You think you refute it by going "nu uh here is this baseless speculation with no facts. lol **** owned you ***."


http://www.bballbreakdown.com/are-kevin-durant-and-lebron-james-really-the-best-scorers-in-the-nba/

Any kind of structured defense stops Jrue and that's a really, really bad sign.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 07:47 PM
I know I have to make this comment. What the **** is wrong with you? You think you shredded that argument? Is that how you go about any argument? You think you refute it by going "nu uh here is this baseless speculation with no facts. lol **** owned you ***."


http://www.bballbreakdown.com/are-kevin-durant-and-lebron-james-really-the-best-scorers-in-the-nba/

Any kind of structured defense stops Jrue and that's a really, really bad sign.

Im not a fan of that kind of analysis but Im not all that familiar with it.

Some years guys do better or worse against certain defenses. I mean, whats the point of this? Its not as if it directly translates into the post season either, as far as I can tell, its just another small piece of a much larger puzzle.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 07:49 PM
I am not sure why you keep saying you win any argument for Jrue. You are offering nothing but speculation and useless statistics.

We know he's bad. Any objective measure shows that. Whether you choose to accept that or not shows whether or not you are a homer towards Jrue.

A self proclaimed Jrue hater calling me a homer? :laugh2:

That says a lot about you doesn't it. I have posted objective numbers which favour Jrue. You're just unable to comprehend.

Every single statistician recognizes the importance of clutch #s, Chronz is probably the closest we have to that on PSD, ask him his opinion. Hell don't need the numbers, watch 8 76ers games and you'd see how he played late in close games for his team.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:49 PM
Im not a fan of that kind of analysis but Im not all that familiar with it.

Some years guys do better or worse against certain defenses. I mean, whats the point of this? Its not as if it directly translates into the post season either, as far as I can tell, its just another small piece of a much larger puzzle.

It's a pretty good indicator of post season play, actually. Dwade had the second biggest drop against top eight defenses and in the playoffs his TS percentage was 490. Basically what you would expect if you used this article.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 07:49 PM
Im not a fan of that kind of analysis but Im not all that familiar with it.

Some years guys do better or worse against certain defenses. I mean, whats the point of this? Its not as if it directly translates into the post season either, as far as I can tell, its just another small piece of a much larger puzzle.

Was just about to ask you to chime on in this article, good to see you gave a rebuttal.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:51 PM
A self proclaimed Jrue hater calling me a homer? :laugh2:

That says a lot about you doesn't it. I have posted objective numbers which favour Jrue. You're just unable to comprehend.

Every single statistician recognizes the importance of clutch #s, Chronz is probably the closest we have to that on PSD, ask him his opinion. Hell don't need the numbers, watch 8 76ers games and you'd see how he played late in close games for his team.

Clutch stats don't predict future clutch stats. It's random. It's as useful as using any random sample of 2-3 possessions.

It doesn't mean a god damned thing. There is no predictive stats. It's not hating to grasp that.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 07:52 PM
Was just about to ask you to chime on in this article, good to see you gave a rebuttal.


Okay. So that's why you consider you shredding my argument. You consider that a rebuttal. That was more of a "Eh, I don't really know what to make of this."

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 07:56 PM
I know I have to make this comment. What the **** is wrong with you? You think you shredded that argument? Is that how you go about any argument? You think you refute it by going "nu uh here is this baseless speculation with no facts. lol **** owned you ***."


http://www.bballbreakdown.com/are-kevin-durant-and-lebron-james-really-the-best-scorers-in-the-nba/

Any kind of structured defense stops Jrue and that's a really, really bad sign.

Wait this isn't the article that I slaughtered that day, it was the idiotic one where you tried to prove that Curry was one of the best passers in the NBA. :laugh2:

Anywho, did you not read the very 1st thing that they said? He's a good player on a not so good team, basic common sense would tell that's why he'd play that way against teams that don't have the greatest defenses. Can't refute the numbers there however they are what they are and that article is MUCH better than the garbage one you used that day. Either way its all common sense and a direct reflection of those around him and not just his ability as a player.

I'd give you your props though this is the 1st good point you've ever made in a Jrue discussion.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 07:58 PM
Clutch stats don't predict future clutch stats. It's random. It's as useful as using any random sample of 2-3 possessions.

It doesn't mean a god damned thing. There is no predictive stats. It's not hating to grasp that.

So you're telling me the FACTS of how a player played in the clutch isn't important because it doesn't predict how well he'd play in the clutch in the future?

What kind of rubbish is that.

That's one of the most foolish things I have ever read.

Please explain to me how compiled factual evidence of a player's production during a time which is holistically recognized and crunch moments of a game by players, statisticians, coaches, gms etc is random.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:00 PM
Wait this isn't the article that I slaughtered that day, it was the idiotic one where you tried to prove that Curry was one of the best passers in the NBA. :laugh2:

Anywho, did you not read the very 1st thing that they said? He's a good player on a not so good team, basic common sense would tell that's why he'd play that way against teams that don't have the greatest defenses. Can't refute the numbers there however they are what they are and that article is MUCH better than the garbage one you used that day. Either way its all common sense and a direct reflection of those around him and not just his ability as a player.

I'd give you your props though this is the 1st good point you've ever made in a Jrue discussion.

That's what people do when they are trying to be impartial. You do that for all articles.

He's not very high on Jrue at all if you follow his twitter. This is the same article you thought you "shredded" back in the day. Not sure what that means because I am fairly confident you were just as asinine when you were arguing for Jrue Holiday.

"Yeah, his numbers are really ******, but WHO CARES."

His numbers are already really bad even against bad defenses. The fact it drops by nine percent (that's hard to do when you have stats as bad as Jrue's) is a really big sign against Jrue.

I have seen you make no objective analysis as to why Jrue's good except "ALL HE DOES IS WIN, CLUTCH BABY." Stop being Skip Bayless.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:01 PM
So you're telling me the FACTS of how a player played in the clutch isn't important because it doesn't predict how well he'd play in the clutch in the future?

What kind of rubbish is that.

That's one of the most foolish things I have ever read.

Please explain to me how compiled factual evidence of a player's production during a time which is holistically recognized and crunch moments of a game by players, statisticians, coaches, gms etc is random.


Because the aggregate sample is too small for it to mean anything. It's the same as taking 50 possession and their results at random and using that to say how good a player is or how bad that player is.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:03 PM
But none of this is really fact tho, you didn't address the issue with last years inefficiency.

I have, I've always been critical of Jrue's inefficient play either shooting (shot selection), inability to get to the line with any shape or form of consistency and his poor decision making at times as a passer. If we're talking about the 76ers offense a lot has to do with what I just mentioned but that's not all. Support and coaching were the major contributors to our offensive problems.


Solid reasoning, I just like my PG's to run a high level offense not hold back a mediocre one, tho I can see why that doesn't fall solely on Jrue.

It certainly doesn't fall on Jrue.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:04 PM
It's a pretty good indicator of post season play, actually. Dwade had the second biggest drop against top eight defenses and in the playoffs his TS percentage was 490. Basically what you would expect if you used this article.

I need more evidence than a sample of 1 brah. Im speaking from my own experience with the stat, simply ignoring what I said isn't going to convince me of anything.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:06 PM
I need more evidence than a sample of 1 brah. Im speaking from my own experience with the stat, simply ignoring what I said isn't going to convince me of anything.

Go through the list yourself. It's easy to cross reference everything.

Take a players stats from the regular season and the post season. And then use this to see what their expected drop is.

It's extremely telling, Chronz.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:06 PM
Because the aggregate sample is too small for it to mean anything. It's the same as taking 50 possession and their results at random and using that to say how good a player is or how bad that player is.

You word you are looking for kind sir is arbitrary not random, if you want to call the chosen timelines arbitrary that's saying something else, you're not right in the very least but that's different. You're not statistician, sure you're not a coach, an analyst or belong to any teams front office.... all these different holders of those positions basically have a universal acceptance of statistical clutch. That's what Jrue was, watching him you saw it, just like you saw how clutch CP3 was, just like you saw how clutch CP3 was, or maybe you don't watch ball either?

Random? :laugh2:

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:07 PM
Clutch stats don't predict future clutch stats. It's random. It's as useful as using any random sample of 2-3 possessions.

It doesn't mean a god damned thing. There is no predictive stats. It's not hating to grasp that.

Same way you feel about clutch stats, is similar to how I feel about selective defense stats.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:08 PM
You word you are looking for kind sir is arbitrary not random, if you want to call the chosen timelines arbitrary that's saying something else, you're not right in the very least but that's different. You're not statistician, sure you're not a coach, an analyst or belong to any teams front office.... all these different holders of those positions basically have a universal acceptance of statistical clutch. That's what Jrue was, watching him you saw it, just like you saw how clutch CP3 was, just like you saw how clutch CP3 was, or maybe you don't watch ball either?

Random? :laugh2:

No. Random is the word I am looking for.

It's random variation. Doesn't matter if you actually understand what that means, but that's what it is. And no, anybody with an understanding of statistics don't actually think clutch is a thing. Stop trying to lie, especially when you are lying about something that's a fallacy anyways. Argument from authority.

Arbitrary is used for something else entirely.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:08 PM
Go through the list yourself. It's easy to cross reference everything.

Take a players stats from the regular season and the post season. And then use this to see what their expected drop is.

It's extremely telling, Chronz.
Wade himself has gone against it. See his stats vs Atlanta/Boston. Wasn't Boston a better defensive team? Why did Wade do better individually?

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:09 PM
That's what people do when they are trying to be impartial. You do that for all articles.

He's not very high on Jrue at all if you follow his twitter. This is the same article you thought you "shredded" back in the day. Not sure what that means because I am fairly confident you were just as asinine when you were arguing for Jrue Holiday.

"Yeah, his numbers are really ******, but WHO CARES."

His numbers are already really bad even against bad defenses. The fact it drops by nine percent (that's hard to do when you have stats as bad as Jrue's) is a really big sign against Jrue.

I have seen you make no objective analysis as to why Jrue's good except "ALL HE DOES IS WIN, CLUTCH BABY." Stop being Skip Bayless.

Go back earlier in this thread. I showed from a statistical stand point the importance in which Jrue had to his team. You apparently didn't understand this.

Real nice calling me Skip Bayless when you're the one who runs when his points are disproven.

I have given reasoning as to why his stats were the way they were, reasoning which no one to this point has refuted.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:10 PM
No. Random is the word I am looking for.

It's random variation. Doesn't matter if you actually understand what that means, but that's what it is.

Arbitrary is used for something else entirely.

I'm not even going to bother with you on this point any further fact is you're wrong.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:12 PM
Go back earlier in this thread. I showed from a statistical stand point the importance in which Jrue had to his team. You apparently didn't understand this.

Real nice calling me Skip Bayless when you're the one who runs when his points are disproven.

I have given reasoning as to why his stats were the way they were, reasoning which no one to this point has refuted.

What have you actually disproven?

Like I said. You haven't actually given reasons as to why his stats are ******. You have given your opinion. That doesn't actually mean anything.

You are going to have to sit here and prove he is better than the other guards that we voted above him. Why is he better? Because? His team didn't win more, his stats suggest he didn't contribute to winning more.

That's what matters. How much he contributes to winning. He doesn't. He puts his teams in position to lose. And that's why they lose.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:13 PM
Wade himself has gone against it. See his stats vs Atlanta/Boston. Wasn't Boston a better defensive team? Why did Wade do better individually?

It's why you use the aggregate. Otherwise you are using small samples with a ton of random variation.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:16 PM
It's why you use the aggregate. Otherwise you are using small samples with a ton of random variation.

The aggregate itself is a small sample, hence the high variance. And I clicked on the link, it only has data for this year. Plz tell me your experience with this stat gos back further than this year.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:18 PM
What have you actually disproven?

Like I said. You haven't actually given reasons as to why his stats are ******. You have given your opinion. That doesn't actually mean anything.

You are going to have to sit here and prove he is better than the other guards that we voted above him. Why is he better? Because? His team didn't win more, his stats suggest he didn't contribute to winning more.

That's what matters. How much he contributes to winning. He doesn't. He puts his teams in position to lose. And that's why they lose.

READ THROUGH MY EARLIER POSTS!

I clearly stated why Jrue's WS were the way they were, why he is such an inefficiency scorer, why his TOV% is where is it is and why he's a much better passer statistically than you even understand (arguably top 10 last season). You seem not to understand this, you seem not to understand his stats. I gave stats that discredit your points you ignored them and now you're telling me that I just gave my opinion? WTF.

Swashcuff
07-15-2013, 08:18 PM
The aggregate itself is a small sample, hence the high variance. And I clicked on the link, it only has data for this year. Plz tell me your experience with this stat gos back further than this year.

You already know the answer to that.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:20 PM
The aggregate itself is a small sample, hence the high variance. And I clicked on the link, it only has data for this year. Plz tell me your experience with this stat gos back further than this year.


30 games is all you need for an accurate sample. We are using that many games for many players.
There is about a 1 percent chance that the results are from random chance.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:25 PM
I will say, a discrepancy that high is alarming, but at the same time, Im not condemning a player for it. For all we know it could reverse itself completely with little to do with Jrue and everything to do with the nature of this stat.

Obviously you expect diminished stats when facing superior comp, but its very much like blaming a player for poor clutch stats that can be a result of random variance or other external factors.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:26 PM
30 games is all you need for an accurate sample. We are using that many games for many players.
There is about a 1 percent chance that the results are from random chance.
LOL in a field where an entire seasons worth of games can be a woefully short sample set, I find this hard to believe. Plz answer the question regarding your experience with this stat.

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:33 PM
LOL in a field where an entire seasons worth of games can be a woefully short sample set, I find this hard to believe. Plz answer the question regarding your experience with this stat.

It's something front offices use, but has been out recently for public view.

That being said, 30 game samples make it hard for a lot of things to be random chance. As a statistician, 30 games is what you want at least. A minimum of 30 games. And once you get a difference that high, it's too high for it to be random chance.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:47 PM
It's something front offices use, but has been out recently for public view.
Now Im lost. We are talking about a stat right? More specifically, tracking stats against varying defenses... Or are you talking about the field of projecting playoff success with it? Either way, its been available to you for as long as you've been interested in the field.


That being said, 30 game samples make it hard for a lot of things to be random chance. As a statistician, 30 games is what you want at least. A minimum of 30 games. And once you get a difference that high, it's too high for it to be random chance.
Agree to disagree

Basically you want me to look at your 30 games of (arbitrary 8) best defenses but IGNORE the 18 games I have of an inferior Jrue taking on playoff defenses in actual playoff series against defenses that no doubt are far superior in the aggregate.

Check it
Jrue Holiday: Playoffs Advanced (2010-11 to 2011-12)

PER TS% eFG% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
17.8 .527 .479 21.1 106 102 1.0 0.9 1.9 .133

Thats FAR superior production to what he put up in that stretch of 30 games vs inferior defenses when the stakes were nowhere near as high. And thats from a lesser version of the same player.

Why would I put more importance in your unsubstantiated sample, which I should remind you, have attempted to pass as a generally predictive barometer for playoff success when the ACTUAL Playoff success proves to the contrary?

Your stance only makes sense if you live in a backward world, where flawed predicative theory is more important than the data its actually trying to predict .

Guppyfighter
07-15-2013, 08:50 PM
Now Im lost. We are talking about a stat right? More specifically, tracking stats against varying defenses... Or are you talking about the field of projecting playoff success with it? Either way, its been available to you for as long as you've been interested in the field.


Agree to disagree

Basically you want me to look at your 30 games of (arbitrary 8) best defenses but IGNORE the 18 games I have of an inferior Jrue taking on playoff defenses in actual playoff series against defenses that no doubt are far superior in the aggregate.

Check it


Jrue Holiday: Playoffs Advanced (2010-11 to 2011-12)
PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
17.8 .527 .479 3.1 10.3 6.6 26.1 2.4 1.1 12.3 21.1 106 102 1.0 0.9 1.9 .133

Thats FAR superior production to what he put up in that stretch of 30 games vs inferior defenses when the stakes were nowhere near as high. And thats from a lesser version of the same player.

Why would I put more importance in your unsubstantiated sample, which I should remind you, have attempted to pass as a generally predictive barometer for playoff success when the ACTUAL Playoff success proves to the contrary?

Your stance only makes sense if you live in a backward world, where flawed predicative theory is more important than the data its actually trying to predict .


You have to wait for playoff sample to get bigger.

And I was saying front offices check variation from top eight offenses and defenses. Not whether it predicts playoffs. But they do like to know the variation.

His TS was 517 those years so the jump to 526 in an 18 game sample is a very normal jump. It's probably only one standard deviation away.

Chronz
07-15-2013, 08:57 PM
You have to wait for playoff sample to get bigger.
Actually you have to wait for both. Only in my case, playoff history is always more relevant than the unsubstantiated theory that tries to predict it.

Facts remain, hes done better in those 18 games (as an inferior player) than hes done in your far less relevant sample.


And I was saying front offices check variation from top eight offenses and defenses. Not whether it predicts playoffs. But they do like to know the variation.

In which case why couldn't you get this information until recently? If you mean to say you werent even aware of the idea of studying this sample set, then you can understand why I wouldn't be swayed that you're up to speed with its relevance.... That said, Im down to look into previous findings if you are.

Like I said, a small piece of a big puzzle. Teams also consider how you fared in the playoffs throughout your career. In this case, Jrue has proven more than he should be questioned. I'd much rather argue against his stature on the merits that his collective resume is lacking. His game doesn't match his placement.