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View Full Version : Expectations Of Blake Griffin This Year?



Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 12:29 PM
It's pretty clear that with the addition of a great coach finally that Griffin really doesn't have an excuse to not become truly dominant this year if he ever will make that leap. What do you expect of him this year and think will happen? Do you think Doc will get a lot more out of him and utilize him a lot better than Vinny did? Or do you think this 20/10/4 type player is what his max potential is?

I won't be arguing in this thread or debating so don't worry about me homering it up. I sincerely want to know what the great people of PSD predict and or want to see from Blake this year.

I remember people recently saying Blake was super hyped coming out of college but the only one who believed he would become a star out of these 5 guys was David Aldridge. Most of these guys are talking about him being a bench player trying to earn his role. So not sure why these same analysts act like he was supposed to be the next Shaq when critiquing him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmJPs863bqE

Iron24th
07-11-2013, 12:43 PM
I think Doc will help him adding more toughness in his game, griffin has already said that he's ready to prove that he's physical.

Griffin has probably worked on his skills too, I can see him improving in many areas with a guy like doc.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 12:45 PM
To make The Leap.

Hawkeye15
07-11-2013, 12:45 PM
To make The Leap.

I was expecting that last year, and didn't see it. I am hesitant that we will see it this year.

Guess time will tell. If he has it in him, this year has to be it.

xxplayerxx23
07-11-2013, 12:46 PM
18-10.

TheNumber37
07-11-2013, 12:55 PM
It's all about efficiency and expanding his game.

They lost Bledsoe, Hill, Billups and and Caron Butler

But, gained Reddik, Collinson, Dudley - these guys will probably either maintain or increase the offensive production of the other guys lost.

I expect him to play EVEN better defense, and average something like 18 and 10.5 on 56% shooting. His free throw needs to be up to about 75%. I see him getting more into the shot blocking game. (he should be getting like Josh Smith type blocks at least)

FYL_McVeezy
07-11-2013, 12:57 PM
If the Clips are serious about contending for a chip....he needs to make that leap this season...or they won't reach it.

He needs to ascend to one of the top 3 PF's in the league, needs to improve his post game and defense, and needs to play more physical on the block.

The potential and skillset is there, he just needs to put it all together...I'm not saying he doesn't take the game seriously, but he needs to be more concerned about wins instead of "Lob City".

Greet
07-11-2013, 12:57 PM
I was expecting that last year, and didn't see it. I am hesitant that we will see it this year.

Guess time will tell. If he has it in him, this year has to be it.

Yup agree'd. I thought being with Chris Paul was going to jump him to the next level. I don't think it will happen this year either.

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 12:58 PM
Honestly, I think his numbers regress to about 16-7. With the addition of reddick and dudly I think the plays doc does run will revolve them coming off screens in a similar way that Jesus did back in the day. The upgrade (as far as I see it) of these positions will take away from Blakes offense, and longer shots mean longer rebounds (less for Blake to grab).

Maybe its just me, but I don't see Blake and Deandre (neither a great mid range shooter) fitting into a Doc Rivers run offense too well. It will be interesting to see how they get involved

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:09 PM
I was expecting that last year, and didn't see it. I am hesitant that we will see it this year.

Guess time will tell. If he has it in him, this year has to be it.

I wasn't expecting it last year.

Dont kid yourself, there never has to be a year where it has to happen for it to ever happen.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:10 PM
Yup agree'd. I thought being with Chris Paul was going to jump him to the next level. I don't think it will happen this year either.

Why would you think that?


Honestly, I think his numbers regress to about 16-7. With the addition of reddick and dudly I think the plays doc does run will revolve them coming off screens in a similar way that Jesus did back in the day. The upgrade (as far as I see it) of these positions will take away from Blakes offense, and longer shots mean longer rebounds (less for Blake to grab).

Maybe its just me, but I don't see Blake and Deandre (neither a great mid range shooter) fitting into a Doc Rivers run offense too well. It will be interesting to see how they get involved
16-7? lol, he can get that in his sleep and those guys were brought in to compliment the stars, not the other way around. Why would Doc run his Boston offense when he has more weapons here?

Greet
07-11-2013, 01:12 PM
Why would you think that?

Because when people praise Chris Paul as easily the best PG in the league, I would expect him to make his teammates better. It's part of being a top PG.

Goose17
07-11-2013, 01:12 PM
If he stops flopping and puts more effort into defense I'll be happy.

Goose17
07-11-2013, 01:16 PM
Because when people praise Chris Paul as easily the best PG in the league, I would expect him to make his teammates better. It's part of being a top PG.

He's an elite PG not a Mage.


...you're right though. lol.

D-Leethal
07-11-2013, 01:18 PM
"He is what we thought he was"

18-10, plenty of dunks, lots of clanked jumpers, solid passing, can't create a shot for himself and limited post moves. Mostly offense that is spoonfed to him for easy finishes. I don't see his ceiling being much higher than where he is right now.

D-Leethal
07-11-2013, 01:18 PM
Chris Paul can't expand Blake's skillset for him. Thats on Blake. Paul gets him more than enough easy opportunities and spoonfed buckets.

SteBO
07-11-2013, 01:24 PM
Chris Paul can't expand Blake's skillset for him. Thats on Blake. Paul gets him more than enough easy opportunities and spoonfed buckets.
True that. I like all the moves the Clippers have made in the offseason, but in the end how far they go will hinge on how much Blake improves as a player, because his weaknesses can be glaring when he isn't dunking the ball at times. His jump shot looked a little better last year, but there's a lot left to be desired there as well.

J4KOP99
07-11-2013, 01:26 PM
A lot of dunks and weird facial expressions

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 01:31 PM
Why would you think that?


16-7? lol, he can get that in his sleep and those guys were brought in to compliment the stars, not the other way around. Why would Doc run his Boston offense when he has more weapons here?

Chris Paul will get everyone involved, but I see Reddick and Dudley's offense taking away from Blakes. And as far as the rivers comment, Doc doesn't run too many plays and the ones he does run are 3's off the big man screen. I foresee something similar happening which doesn't really coincide with an increase in production for Blake.

I do think Blake will improve this year but more so defensively than offensively. Just my thoughts anyways

Goose17
07-11-2013, 01:31 PM
A lot of dunks and weird facial expressions

I have no idea what you are talking about...

http://www.sportsherniablog.com/.a/6a00d83451b84f69e20147e053c955970b-550wi

Hawkeye15
07-11-2013, 01:34 PM
I wasn't expecting it last year.

Dont kid yourself, there never has to be a year where it has to happen for it to ever happen.

if you have Blake's natural talent, at some point, the non-jump becomes mental, so you do want to see it early.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:36 PM
Because when people praise Chris Paul as easily the best PG in the league, I would expect him to make his teammates better. It's part of being a top PG.
What makes you think that? Sounds like a hallow cliche to me, not every player is going to benefit from the presence of another. The NBA doesn't exist in a vacuum, Synergy matters. Blake is Blake regardless of whether CP3 is around. You can take that as a sign that CP3 hasn't made Blake better (whoever is to blame for that is up to you) but you can also take it as a sign that Blake stands tall without CP3, hes not overly reliant on him, nor overly complimentary. I can see either argument.

Their chemistry is building tho, just not in the way people are expecting. Most people see CP3 and Blake as a wannabe Nash-Amare, GP-Kemp, high scoring, high flying setup and they do get their share but this duo has a COMPLETELY different skillset.

Contrary to popular belief, CP3 isn't a lob master Nash, GP, Kidd back in NJ all took risks with their passing, he doesnt like to take risks, hoping my football analogy is correct but think of him as a pocket passer. Compounding the problem is that Blake isn't intuitive on the catch(the way Amare, Kemp were). So instead of having one playmaker and one finisher, you essentially have 2 players who like to survey defenses and react accordingly. Initially it wasn't an ideal fit, albeit talented, but in year 2 you began to see the chemistry possibilities of this kind of set up. Blake is starting to understand where defenses are loading up on the PnR between he and CP3 and hes done a much better job of delivering the pass on target, often leading to lobs between he and DJ.

This year Im hoping Blake can improve his midrange J however slightly but more importantly, start attacking defenses before giving them time to recover.

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 01:36 PM
Blake Griffin I just Lop City, I think he is the most overrated player in the NBA. He has just steadily been declining since being drafted and the talent around him has gotten better.

For of guy of that athleticism (and pound for pound is ABSOLUTELY the best athlete in the nba) all he is a great in game dunker. He should be averaging any where from 25-22 ppgs with pulling down 12-15 rebounds but he doesn't. I dont want to say he will never reach his potential but he just doesn't seem to have the mental make up or work ethic to get there.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:38 PM
Chris Paul can't expand Blake's skillset for him. Thats on Blake. Paul gets him more than enough easy opportunities and spoonfed buckets.

Thats a highly flawed rationale. The truth is that a guy like Nash would have gotten more out of Blake, hell Id argue Stephen Curry could get more out of Blake, but the name of the game isn't to boost the stats of 1 man, its to boost the teams stats. CP3 gives the team the best chance to win and Blake is learning how to play basketball that is most conducive to winning while putting up production well ahead of his age curve. Ill take that.


if you have Blake's natural talent, at some point, the non-jump becomes mental, so you do want to see it early.
The earlier the better obviously

sep11ie
07-11-2013, 01:43 PM
A lot of flopping, a lot of whining, a lot of joking.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:46 PM
Chris Paul will get everyone involved, but I see Reddick and Dudley's offense taking away from Blakes. And as far as the rivers comment, Doc doesn't run too many plays and the ones he does run are 3's off the big man screen. I foresee something similar happening which doesn't really coincide with an increase in production for Blake.

I do think Blake will improve this year but more so defensively than offensively. Just my thoughts anyways

Can you explain how a guy with a below average usage is suppose to take away shots from anyone?

Dudley is the prototypical wing role player, his role isn't to take shots away from Blake, its to maximize the few that Blake leaves him. Redick has been at league average the last few years but the fact is, Butler was too. So hes atleast going to offset whatever shot dispersion you're projecting. Because DJ is still well below average and CP3 always defers when Blake is in the game. I really dont see what you're talking about, and again, why would Doc run the same offense he ran in Boston?

Greet
07-11-2013, 01:47 PM
Contrary to popular belief, CP3 isn't a lob master Nash, GP, Kidd back in NJ all took risks with their passing, he doesnt like to take risks, hoping my football analogy is correct but think of him as a pocket passer. Compounding the problem is that Blake isn't intuitive on the catch(the way Amare, Kemp were). So instead of having one playmaker and one finisher, you essentially have 2 players who like to survey defenses and react accordingly. Initially it wasn't an ideal fit, albeit talented, but in year 2 you began to see the chemistry possibilities of this kind of set up. Blake is starting to understand where defenses are loading up on the PnR between he and CP3 and hes done a much better job of delivering the pass on target, often leading to lobs between he and DJ.

This year Im hoping Blake can improve his midrange J however slightly but more importantly, start attacking defenses before giving them time to recover.

I deleted the first part of your post because like you said, you can argue either way. So I will let it stay that way.

Your football analogy is a little off, but I understand what you're saying. CP3 would much rather make the safe short pass over the longer riskier one. Even if the longer one has a better possible outcome. Which I can agree with, Chris Paul is a smart player. Regardless though, when people rank their top PGs one of the biggest arguments is that "This guy makes his teammates better, while this guy doesn't."

I still think he should be able to excel Blake Griffin to the next level, and that's part of his job as a PG

Chronz
07-11-2013, 01:48 PM
Blake Griffin I just Lop City, I think he is the most overrated player in the NBA. He has just steadily been declining since being drafted and the talent around him has gotten better.
If you think hes declined the last few years, you have a poor understanding of statistics.


For of guy of that athleticism (and pound for pound is ABSOLUTELY the best athlete in the nba) all he is a great in game dunker. He should be averaging any where from 25-22 ppgs with pulling down 12-15 rebounds but he doesn't. I dont want to say he will never reach his potential but he just doesn't seem to have the mental make up or work ethic to get there.

Would you rather have better superficial averages, or improved 2-way efficiency?

NYKnickFanatic
07-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Expectations for BG this year? Lots of cool dunks and some more flopping from the big frail man.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 01:52 PM
Chronz saying all of the things I want to say and more :laugh2:. No but really Chronz you're 100 percent spot on IMO. Like you said synergy wise they have a lot of work to do but the talent/production is undeniable.

Chacarron
07-11-2013, 01:56 PM
He is getting better defensively. I do expect him to improve his post play this season.

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 01:58 PM
A lot of flopping, a lot of whining, a lot of joking.

He is funny and will probably have a great career after Bball but he aint that good. Most overrated player in the NBA.

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 02:00 PM
Can you explain how a guy with a below average usage is suppose to take away shots from anyone?

Dudley is the prototypical wing role player, his role isn't to take shots away from Blake, its to maximize the few that Blake leaves him. Redick has been at league average the last few years but the fact is, Butler was too. So hes atleast going to offset whatever shot dispersion you're projecting. Because DJ is still well below average and CP3 always defers when Blake is in the game. I really dont see what you're talking about, and again, why would Doc run the same offense he ran in Boston?

I think reddick and dudly will be used more than caron + (billups or bledsoe or whoever else they threw in at SG) so there is your change in production. When you hire a coach I've always felt its on the basis of what they have been successful with previously, their track record. You wouldn't hire Mike Dantoni and then have him implement the Triangle offense would you? Maybe thats a bad example.......I just don't foresee Doc transitioning the offense to something other than what he knows and has done in the past. The defense is another story and like I said thats where I think Blake takes a big jump forward

Chronz
07-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Come to think of it, do you think CP3 will create more shots for Dudley? Maybe more than Nash it would seem, either way, still below league average IMO.

NYKnickFanatic
07-11-2013, 02:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_nj5K43qM

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 02:07 PM
If you think hes declined the last few years, you have a poor understanding of statistics.

He becomes less and less of a factor in games each season.

Would you rather have better superficial averages, or improved 2-way efficiency?

Efficiency but the guy turns the ball over and really isn't that good and has been getting worse, all I was trying to say is the tools are there for him to be great and he is an amazing athlete I just don't think he has the basketball IQ and work ethic.

After his first year in the league I was like ok wow this kid is ganna be something special, but he as done nothing the past 2 years to really show me he can be a dominate big man for the next 5+ years. I say these things because he is very good player still and have the potential and athleticism to be something truly great. All in all I'm disappointed

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 02:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq_nj5k43qm

ha

Chronz
07-11-2013, 02:13 PM
I think reddick and dudly will be used more than caron + (billups or bledsoe or whoever else they threw in at SG)
To the degree where it substantially impacts Blakes production is a longshot but I guess time will tell.



When you hire a coach I've always felt its on the basis of what they have been successful with previously, their track record. You wouldn't hire Mike Dantoni and then have him implement the Triangle offense would you? Maybe thats a bad example.......I just don't foresee Doc transitioning the offense to something other than what he knows and has done in the past. The defense is another story and like I said thats where I think Blake takes a big jump forward
Did you see Doc in Orlando? Do you really think his offense in Orlando was in any way shape or form the same as it was in Boston?

The D'Antoni example is a bad one because Doc doesn't have a rigid system, ESPN did a Coaching breakdown last year and they addressed this very issue:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/44097/the-book-on-doc-rivers

Does he rely on systems, or does he coach ad hoc to his personnel?
It’s a mix. Defensively, the Celtics religiously adhere to the Tom Thibodeau strong-side pressure defense system.

Because the Celtics have essentially run the same five plays for the last five years, it’s tempting to say that Rivers also prefers a system on offense. But that wouldn’t be quite correct; the Celtics' offense could more accurately be described as a series of quick-hitters out of which there are various reads, rather than a continuous system. Indeed, Rivers’ real talent is for designing plays that cater to the unique talents of specific players



When you ask the same question for Mike D, this is what you get:

Does he rely on systems, or does he coach ad hoc to his personnel?
Throughout his career, D'Antoni has demonstrated a fundamental devotion to his system,


Not quite the same

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 02:20 PM
I'm not saying blake will suck and get 10 ppg, keep in mind he only averaged 18 last year. So putting a better shooter like reddick and a guy who will do just as much as butler (avg I think 8.5 shots per game last year) and thats a 1 pt difference?

And I don't recall the days when Doc was coaching in Orlando, I followed only the Celtics at that time and they weren't too good so I didn't follow them that closely. I wasn't trying to compare Dantoni and Doc as I said bad example. Yes doc's true strength is his ability to design plays off of timeouts but how does that help Blake throughout a game. And Doc's lack of a system means Blake has to create for himself, something he isn't great at.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 02:22 PM
Efficiency but the guy turns the ball over
Whats the point of mentioning turnovers without passing efficiency? The guy gets alot of assists in the flow of the offense by making high IQ reads. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRx6p2CSqE
Off the PnR with Billups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI29LPjM8O8
He can go coast to coast and deliver lobs like this in transition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHXGrJSMyUs


I cant find the ones Im looking for but the stats speak for themselves, the guy is a top flight passer. And when you account for turnovers, hes still an efficient player. Obviously, the more efficient the better but to say hes not really good is profoundly moronic.



and really isn't that good
Based on what?


and has been getting worse
Only if you ignore all tangible data. Which in order for me to do so, I would need to be convinced that you WATCH more Clipper games than I do..... I really dont think thats the case, so Ill stick to my eyes and the stats that support them.


, all I was trying to say is the tools are there for him to be great and he is an amazing athlete I just don't think he has the basketball IQ and work ethic.
Those are 2 things he is praised for. Do you seriously not know about the kids work ethic? I dont know much either but I know its raved about by plenty of those more connected than you or I.



After his first year in the league I was like ok wow this kid is ganna be something special, but he as done nothing the past 2 years to really show me he can be a dominate big man for the next 5+ years. I say these things because he is very good player still and have the potential and athleticism to be something truly great. All in all I'm disappointed
Thats prolly because your expectations were unrealistic. Why would I expect more from Blake than I would Karl Malone? Do you know what Karl Malone looked like at Blakes age?

D-Leethal
07-11-2013, 02:23 PM
Thats a highly flawed rationale. The truth is that a guy like Nash would have gotten more out of Blake, hell Id argue Stephen Curry could get more out of Blake, but the name of the game isn't to boost the stats of 1 man, its to boost the teams stats. CP3 gives the team the best chance to win and Blake is learning how to play basketball that is most conducive to winning while putting up production well ahead of his age curve. Ill take that.


The earlier the better obviously

I could care less about Blake's stats getting boosted, I want him to round out his game and skill set because right now, its pretty much every bit as limited as it was his rookie year. He can put up all those pretty advanced statistics but until he improves that skillset, gets more than one go-to move, improves his jump shot, he will continue to come up short against the better defensive teams, and he will continue to be a guy who can be checked without constant double teams.

What exactly is 'learning basketball that is conducive to winning'? Scoring easy buckets and moving the ball elsewhere whenever there is a guy defending you? That may be conducive to winning until it comes playoff time and you need your best scorer to put his big boy pants on, score on his man and force double teams to get quality looks for other instead of forced attempts.

Blake has a long ways to go, his stats might not tell you that, but the eye test suffices when it comes to the limitations in his game.

sp1derm00
07-11-2013, 02:28 PM
I hope the posters that bring up his declining stats know that it's because of decreased playing time. You never hear one peep from BG about his decline in PT. I don't agree with his flopping, but I respect his dedication to the team.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 02:29 PM
I'm not saying blake will suck and get 10 ppg, keep in mind he only averaged 18 last year. So putting a better shooter like reddick and a guy who will do just as much as butler (avg I think 8.5 shots per game last year) and thats a 1 pt difference?

And I don't recall the days when Doc was coaching in Orlando, I followed only the Celtics at that time and they weren't too good so I didn't follow them that closely. I wasn't trying to compare Dantoni and Doc as I said bad example. Yes doc's true strength is his ability to design plays off of timeouts but how does that help Blake throughout a game. And Doc's lack of a system means Blake has to create for himself, something he isn't great at.

He averaged 18 because he played 32 minutes per game.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 02:30 PM
I'm not saying blake will suck and get 10 ppg, keep in mind he only averaged 18 last year.
Only? He averaged 18 by playing 32.5MPG.


So putting a better shooter like reddick and a guy who will do just as much as butler (avg I think 8.5 shots per game last year) and thats a 1 pt difference?
Is that a question or a claim? Again, Butler accounted for a higher usage than Dudley so no, if you're looking at the past, he will not do as much as Butler.


Yes doc's true strength is his ability to design plays off of timeouts but how does that help Blake throughout a game.
Thats not what the article said. It said his strength is to design plays that cater to his talent PERIOD.... Not off of timeouts, but ALL GAME. It should go without saying that hes great off T.O. because hes been one of the best ever in that regard (IMO).

But usually, guys who can design great plays off time outs, do so because they have a knack for understanding the moment. Those guys typically tend to understand their teams skillset dont you think?



And Doc's lack of a system means Blake has to create for himself, something he isn't great at.
LOL, listen to what you're saying. Essentially you're arguing that not only does Vinny Del Negro have more of an offensive system than Doc (lmfao) but that he would somehow be more equipped to making life easier for Blake Griffin? ROFLMFAO

Chronz
07-11-2013, 02:37 PM
I could care less about Blake's stats getting boosted
So you're not talking about the relationship between CP3 and Blake? CP3 could do alot more for Blake was the point, but rather than play that style of ball, hes learning to play a system that is more controlled and efficient and thus more conducive to winning, even at the expense of his own stats.

Thats the argument I care about, I dont agree with the rest of your opinion, his progression has been steady and impressive for a prospect most didn't expect much from.

HYFR
07-11-2013, 02:40 PM
How healthy is he with his knee? Is it something that is reoccurring or is he good to go?

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 02:43 PM
How healthy is he with his knee? Is it something that is reoccurring or is he good to go?

They were two different injuries. One was a fractured knee cap (patella), other was a Meniscus tear. Last summer was the Meniscus and he came back in like a month and hasn't had knee problems since. His injury in the playoffs was a bad high ankle sprain.

VCaintdead17
07-11-2013, 02:50 PM
Best power forward in the league, if he isn't already

ChiSox219
07-11-2013, 02:59 PM
I like Blake Griffin because he's a great measure of a fan's IQ. When you see someone saying he has no post game, lacks IQ, can't create for himself, is one dimensional, etc. you know that person is willing to criticize a basketball player without actually watching him play basketball. Only an idiot would do something like that.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 03:00 PM
I like Blake Griffin because he's a great measure of a fan's IQ. When you see someone saying he has no post game, lacks IQ, can't create for himself, is one dimensional, etc. you know that person is willing to criticize a basketball player without actually watching him play basketball. Only a idiot would do something like that.

:clap:

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 03:02 PM
Whats the point of mentioning turnovers without passing efficiency? The guy gets alot of assists in the flow of the offense by making high IQ reads. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRx6p2CSqE
Off the PnR with Billups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI29LPjM8O8
He can go coast to coast and deliver lobs like this in transition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHXGrJSMyUs

I cant find the ones Im looking for but the stats speak for themselves, the guy is a top flight passer. And when you account for turnovers, hes still an efficient player. Obviously, the more efficient the better but to say hes not really good is profoundly moronic.



Based on what?


Only if you ignore all tangible data. Which in order for me to do so, I would need to be convinced that you WATCH more Clipper games than I do..... I really dont think thats the case, so Ill stick to my eyes and the stats that support them.


Those are 2 things he is praised for. Do you seriously not know about the kids work ethic? I dont know much either but I know its raved about by plenty of those more connected than you or I.



Thats prolly because your expectations were unrealistic. Why would I expect more from Blake than I would Karl Malone? Do you know what Karl Malone looked like at Blakes age?

Not doubting his has great passing skills, I have been mainly talking about his ability to play the PF position ah la score, rebound, defend. I did not nor am I bring intangibles into it. And you can say what you'd like about his work ethic but I just didnt expect him to be were he is now. I thought he would be much better.

You can say all you want about him and I'm not saying he is a bad player, bad players dont score 18 pps. But he has slowly started to get worse each year he's been in the league, go check out his production per 36, he is scoring less, he is rebounding less, he isnt getting to the line nearly as much, his fouls and turnovers have stayed the same. But at a young age I though he would be getting better, not hitting plateau and get worse.

But we'll see what happens this year, to your Karl Malone refrence he was around 20-22 points per 36 and then jumped up to around 27-28 when he turned 24. Griffen turns 24 this year.

Jenceman
07-11-2013, 03:06 PM
His defense needs to improve...a lot.

Jenceman
07-11-2013, 03:06 PM
Best power forward in the league, if he isn't already

Kevin Love says Hi

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 03:10 PM
Bears you're not factoring in the improved talent he's playing with literally every single year. Compare the production/talent on the Clippers in the last 3 years and it will make sence. The per minute drops are related to that. When you have 5 guys who want shots, it's much harder to score as much. When you have better rebounders on the team and you're starting to shoot the jumper more.. it's hard to get inside and get as many rebounds. It's all very logical when you dig deep.

Chronz knows I'd LOVE Blake to put up 25/12 but as he's pointed out.. it's not conducive to team success given how the roster is built. Now with Butler/Billups gone (both shot jackers often times) I expect his raw numbers to increase some but Doc needs to really commit to playing the inside out game if he's going to carry that big of a load. The Vinny offense of give CP3 the ball and iso CANNOT be repeated.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 03:20 PM
Not doubting his has great passing skills, I have been mainly talking about his ability to play the PF position ah la score, rebound, defend.
False, you were mentioning his turnovers not just his scoring and rebounding/defense. Any amateur statistician/scout knows you cant ignore passing (+overall efficiency) when discussing turnovers.

If you're trying to say hes not a superstar, thats fine with me. I am his biggest detractor, where I draw the line is when people say hes getting worse when all tangible/relevant data suggests otherwise.


I did not nor am I bring intangibles into it.
Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say intangibles, I said TANGIBLE.


And you can say what you'd like about his work ethic but I just didnt expect him to be were he is now. I thought he would be much better.
Im not saying anything, Im merely reverberating what has already been said about the kids allegedly great work ethic. If you wish to disprove it, feel free but the kid seems to put in work. How else do you explain his steady progression?

You can expect what you wish, but hes ahead of the pack imo. It took Karl Malone years to get his passing game down, even longer to become the efficient force Blake has become. Karl Malone became a superstar at age 25, barely became an All-Star at age 24 (both in name and production).

If you're disappointed in Blake, its only because he shattered your expectations coming into the league. Sometimes its as if people would rather Blake take giant leaps each year, beginning as a bench player to a starter to a decent starter and then into an All-Star, rather than starting from such a strong foundation of immediate All-Star to All-NBA performer.


But he has slowly started to get worse each year he's been in the league, go check out his production per 36
Check out his 2-way efficiency, its gotten better every year. So why would I care about superficial averages devoid of context?



he is rebounding less
Thats because hes actually playing help defense now. His progress defensively and his attempts to become more of an outlet shooter have dwindled his rebounding numbers, the end results are worth the payoff considering his slight increase in production but yes it would be great to see him board while still scrambling defensively. That would truly be the next step defensively.


he isnt getting to the line nearly as much
But hes improved his ft shooting and again, hes still more efficient offensively so why isolate any 1 thing instead of looking at the complete picture?


his fouls and turnovers have stayed the same
Again, what is the point of mentioning turnovers without passing ability and overall efficiency?


But at a young age I though he would be getting better, not hitting plateau and get worse.
Except all tangible evidence points to him getting better.


But we'll see what happens this year, to your Karl Malone refrence he was around 20-22 points per 36 and then jumped up to around 27-28 when he turned 24. Griffen turns 24 this year.
Nah, Blake is already better than that version of Karl Malone, the jump Im hoping Blake makes is the jump Karl made at 25. Not entirely in terms of skillset because Karl was more reckless early in his career, Blake has always been more reserved. But in terms of their own playstyle, its the evolutionary leap I want him to emulate.

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 03:20 PM
Bears you're not factoring in the improved talent he's playing with literally every single year. Compare the production/talent on the Clippers in the last 3 years and it will make sence. The per minute drops are related to that. When you have 5 guys who want shots, it's much harder to score as much. When you have better rebounders on the team and you're starting to shoot the jumper more.. it's hard to get inside and get as many rebounds. It's all very logical when you dig deep.

Chronz knows I'd LOVE Blake to put up 25/12 but as he's pointed out.. it's not conducive to team success given how the roster is built. Now with Butler/Billups gone (both shot jackers often times) I expect his raw numbers to increase some but Doc needs to really commit to playing the inside out game if he's going to carry that big of a load. The Vinny offense of give CP3 the ball and iso CANNOT be repeated.

All i'm trying to get at is I though he would be much better than he is right now. And he is not and I'm disappointed.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 03:24 PM
All i'm trying to get at is I though he would be much better than he is right now. And he is not and I'm disappointed.

Take 2013 Blake and put him up against 2010 Blake.. and current Blake MURDERS him. He's that much better. Motor is slightly weaker because he's doing more. Passing better, efficiency better, defense better, post game better, shot better. The only real "decline" is his rebounding and as I said I feel that has to do with his increased energy on defense and the fact that he's on the perimeter more now passing and shooting jumpers.

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 03:39 PM
Take 2013 Blake and put him up against 2010 Blake.. and current Blake MURDERS him. He's that much better. Motor is slightly weaker because he's doing more. Passing better, efficiency better, defense better, post game better, shot better. The only real "decline" is his rebounding and as I said I feel that has to do with his increased energy on defense and the fact that he's on the perimeter more now passing and shooting jumpers.

No, doubt it

MinnesotaFtw
07-11-2013, 03:42 PM
I see him as a 20 and 10 guy this year again. What the clippers need is for him to block shots, and play great post D on top of that. As well as develop a post game and mid-range jumper.

Munkeysuit
07-11-2013, 03:46 PM
Well, to be honest I personally hope he turns that corner, I mean the guy has such a high ceiling, it's just so sad some of his growth will be stunted because they have such a stacked team. They have arguably the best PG in the NBA, but how much has that helped him so far? I mean it's pretty obvious it's helped DeAndre Jordan way more than it did Blake.
I feel like if Blake doesn't round out this season? it'll be workouts with Hakeem time or Clips should really take a look at how Jordan and Blake just do not fit well together...they are basically the same player offensively and Jordan has more of an edge because he's a great defender and rebounder.

NYKnickFanatic
07-11-2013, 03:58 PM
I wonder if Chronz would defend BG like this, if he played for the Knicks. :laugh2:

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 04:14 PM
You completely twist things and leave things out to try and make your own point this is a discussion not an argument.....I gain nothing from bantering with you so don't give me that juvenile ******** "LOL ROFLMAO"

When I say he only averaged 18 points last year it has nothing to do with how much he played, its how much he averaged. The OP asked what will his averages be. I never said it wasn't great per 36 numbers I simply said he only averaged 18 and my projection is 17 so thats 1 point difference, Make sense?

I don't think he should be played more than 35 minutes a game if you want the guy to be healthy come playoff time. The wear and tear is too brutal for a player with Blake's style.

I was saying before that butler was a wash with caron.....you want to win that take it he won't be used as much but JJ will be used more than billups and willie green ever were and should be putting up 9-12 shots a game.

With concerns to doc and "catering to the team's talent" he doesn't do too much of that in game just off of timeouts but thats my opinion. And I am by no means implying that vinny del negro is a better coach but what doc does (or I guess what I say he does) is not conducive for Blake to prosper statistically. When have you ever seen the Celtics offense run and gun? (What would blake be best at?) NO, he does alot of half court sets and isolation offense which isn't the strong point of Blakes game. You look at all of the pick and pop rondo did with garnett, sure CP3 could do that but Blake isnt as good at the 18 foot jumper as KG....These are things I'm talking about that don't suit a statistically better season for Blake.


Only? He averaged 18 by playing 32.5MPG.


Is that a question or a claim? Again, Butler accounted for a higher usage than Dudley so no, if you're looking at the past, he will not do as much as Butler.


Thats not what the article said. It said his strength is to design plays that cater to his talent PERIOD.... Not off of timeouts, but ALL GAME. It should go without saying that hes great off T.O. because hes been one of the best ever in that regard (IMO).

But usually, guys who can design great plays off time outs, do so because they have a knack for understanding the moment. Those guys typically tend to understand their teams skillset dont you think?



LOL, listen to what you're saying. Essentially you're arguing that not only does Vinny Del Negro have more of an offensive system than Doc (lmfao) but that he would somehow be more equipped to making life easier for Blake Griffin? ROFLMFAO

Jabears85
07-11-2013, 04:14 PM
False, you were mentioning his turnovers not just his scoring and rebounding/defense. Any amateur statistician/scout knows you cant ignore passing (+overall efficiency) when discussing turnovers.

If you're trying to say hes not a superstar, thats fine with me. I am his biggest detractor, where I draw the line is when people say hes getting worse when all tangible/relevant data suggests otherwise.


Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say intangibles, I said TANGIBLE.


Im not saying anything, Im merely reverberating what has already been said about the kids allegedly great work ethic. If you wish to disprove it, feel free but the kid seems to put in work. How else do you explain his steady progression?

You can expect what you wish, but hes ahead of the pack imo. It took Karl Malone years to get his passing game down, even longer to become the efficient force Blake has become. Karl Malone became a superstar at age 25, barely became an All-Star at age 24 (both in name and production).

If you're disappointed in Blake, its only because he shattered your expectations coming into the league. Sometimes its as if people would rather Blake take giant leaps each year, beginning as a bench player to a starter to a decent starter and then into an All-Star, rather than starting from such a strong foundation of immediate All-Star to All-NBA performer.


Check out his 2-way efficiency, its gotten better every year. So why would I care about superficial averages devoid of context?



Thats because hes actually playing help defense now. His progress defensively and his attempts to become more of an outlet shooter have dwindled his rebounding numbers, the end results are worth the payoff considering his slight increase in production but yes it would be great to see him board while still scrambling defensively. That would truly be the next step defensively.


But hes improved his ft shooting and again, hes still more efficient offensively so why isolate any 1 thing instead of looking at the complete picture?


Again, what is the point of mentioning turnovers without passing ability and overall efficiency?


Except all tangible evidence points to him getting better.


Nah, Blake is already better than that version of Karl Malone, the jump Im hoping Blake makes is the jump Karl made at 25. Not entirely in terms of skillset because Karl was more reckless early in his career, Blake has always been more reserved. But in terms of their own playstyle, its the evolutionary leap I want him to emulate.


Pshh doubt it

bloomis1307
07-11-2013, 04:19 PM
Whats funny is we are arguing the same thing from two different view points;

You think Blake will score more because billups and butler are chuckers and are gone
I think Blake will score less because the scoring by Dudly and JJ will be more or at the very least more efficient and therefore limit Blake's opportunities.



Bears you're not factoring in the improved talent he's playing with literally every single year. Compare the production/talent on the Clippers in the last 3 years and it will make sence. The per minute drops are related to that. When you have 5 guys who want shots, it's much harder to score as much. When you have better rebounders on the team and you're starting to shoot the jumper more.. it's hard to get inside and get as many rebounds. It's all very logical when you dig deep.

Chronz knows I'd LOVE Blake to put up 25/12 but as he's pointed out.. it's not conducive to team success given how the roster is built. Now with Butler/Billups gone (both shot jackers often times) I expect his raw numbers to increase some but Doc needs to really commit to playing the inside out game if he's going to carry that big of a load. The Vinny offense of give CP3 the ball and iso CANNOT be repeated.

D-Leethal
07-11-2013, 04:22 PM
Take 2013 Blake and put him up against 2010 Blake.. and current Blake MURDERS him. He's that much better. Motor is slightly weaker because he's doing more. Passing better, efficiency better, defense better, post game better, shot better. The only real "decline" is his rebounding and as I said I feel that has to do with his increased energy on defense and the fact that he's on the perimeter more now passing and shooting jumpers.

Having a much better team around you will do wonders for things like that. And his post game is still garbage. He just has weapons all over the court so its easy to get position with space and put up a flip hook, but he has no drop steps, spins, or counter moves down there. He isn't a guy you can run your offense through down there. His footwork is shaky at best and he isn't going to command double teams if you feed him there.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 04:35 PM
Having a much better team around you will do wonders for things like that. And his post game is still garbage. He just has weapons all over the court so its easy to get position with space and put up a flip hook, but he has no drop steps, spins, or counter moves down there. He isn't a guy you can run your offense through down there. His footwork is shaky at best and he isn't going to command double teams if you feed him there.

You don't rank 2nd overall in points in the paint 2 of your 3 seasons and 1st one season if your post game is trash, sorry. A lot of work to do sure but trash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67UFfv9y51A

If you care at all about not spreading bad information, watch more specialized footage like this. Also Blake gets double teamed more than pretty much anybody in basketball :confused:. Outside of a handful of guys NOBODY else guards the guy 1 on 1. When they do he destroys them. Anybody who thinks skillset is Blake's problem doesn't watch basketball like Whitesox implied on the last page. Blake's skillset is pretty amazing. It's his mental toughness, shooting and fundamentals that need improving.

Clippersfan86
07-11-2013, 04:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5O0cc0I0vk

Never seen this. Must watch for those saying he lacks skills, footwork and has a low IQ. Do people remember when he scored 47 with one dunk?

Chronz
07-11-2013, 04:52 PM
I wonder if Chronz would defend BG like this, if he played for the Knicks. :laugh2:

You would love me as Knicks fan....


no seriously tho, no you wouldn't but you wouldn't go against common sense either. Anyone who thinks Blake has regressed doesn't understand the game beyond simple stats.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 04:57 PM
I like Blake Griffin because he's a great measure of a fan's IQ. When you see someone saying he has no post game, lacks IQ, can't create for himself, is one dimensional, etc. you know that person is willing to criticize a basketball player without actually watching him play basketball. Only an idiot would do something like that.

True. Mainly consisting of people who are either too busy to actually watch play or too lazy to actually understand anything beyond simple stats.

Greet
07-11-2013, 04:57 PM
You would love me as Knicks fan....


no seriously tho, no you wouldn't but you wouldn't go against common sense either. Anyone who thinks Blake has regressed doesn't understand the game beyond simple stats.

Haven't read the thread past my posts but..... clearly Blake hasn't regressed. Has Blake developed in the correct way/pace so far? I don't think so....

Chronz
07-11-2013, 05:06 PM
Haven't read the thread past my posts but..... clearly Blake hasn't regressed. Has Blake developed in the correct way/pace so far? I don't think so....

As in too slow? Or as in prioritizing the wrong parts of his game?

Aust
07-11-2013, 05:09 PM
You would love me as Knicks fan....


no seriously tho, no you wouldn't but you wouldn't go against common sense either. Anyone who thinks Blake has regressed doesn't understand the game beyond simple stats.

Do people actually think he's regressed? That seems odd.

Greet
07-11-2013, 05:11 PM
As in too slow? Or as in prioritizing the wrong parts of his game?

Combination of both. But mainly focused on too slow. I really did think by now he would be better than he actually is.

Chronz
07-11-2013, 06:48 PM
Do people actually think he's regressed? That seems odd.
These backwards people ignore winning and losing when it fits their bias. They also have very little interest in stats beyond the rudimentary.


Combination of both. But mainly focused on too slow. I really did think by now he would be better than he actually is.

Just tell me one thing, if he had started off as a 10-10 guy who became a 20-10 guy today, would you think more highly of his growth and potential as a player?

Heediot
07-11-2013, 06:52 PM
22 and 11 with improved efficiency. improved defense and maturity. becomes legit top 10 player borderlining top 5.

FOBolous
07-11-2013, 06:55 PM
i honestly expect him to perform the same :shrug: he seems to be satisfied with the way he is right and haven't seen that much of a drive from him.

Heediot
07-11-2013, 06:59 PM
lol @ people who haven't clearly followed blake and continue to project their ingrained views about him based on previous years and nba/espn.com hi-light reels.

Greet
07-11-2013, 07:07 PM
Just tell me one thing, if he had started off as a 10-10 guy who became a 20-10 guy today, would you think more highly of his growth and potential as a player?

Well if you are giving me just those two statistics (Points-Rebounds), without any type of more important statistics (Efficiency-Minutes).... Then yes I would think more highly of his growth and potential.

But it works the same way, he went from a 23-12 player to a 18-8 player. That is why it looks like he has regressed.

The fact is, I don't think Blake will ever put up another year like his first one. (In terms of PPG AND RPG)

Jarvo
07-11-2013, 09:02 PM
Same ol same ol with more flops :dance:

YashBoone
07-11-2013, 09:29 PM
In my honest opinion, Blake is one of those players to me that will NEVER reach his full potential, and will fizzle out when his crazy leaping ability starts going.

He is more of a fun guy to watch, then a true winner.

LeperMessiah
07-11-2013, 09:32 PM
I expect him to be good.

Cracka2HI!
07-12-2013, 01:53 AM
I'm 50/50 on Blake after this year. I almost think his improving range is hurting his overall effectiveness. He wasn't aggressive enough this year but his jumper was much improved even if the stats may not show it. His stoke is looking good and his range was much further. However he always had the split second where he thought to shoot on plays he used to go straight the hole and bash while the D stayed off the poster. There was almost none of that and I think it's because he was unsure if he should shoot or drive much of the time. He needs to get back to drive drive drive mode. The hesitation really hurt him.

Blake's other big issue is something I have grown to HATE about him and it really changed the way I feel about him as a player. He cries. All the Fn time. I think his flopping is way overstated(not to say he never flops) but his whining is not. He cries for a foul on every play and thinks he never commits a foul. I know you can say that about all players but it's really annoying when it's your former favorite player doing it. I really don't like guys like that. CP3 complains more than Blake but he never stops playing to cry. There is a huge difference. Blake lets the refs take him completely out of his game. CP3 would never let anything do that, especially the refs. No matter how much CP3 chirps you can't say the refs don't respect him. They don't respect Blake and he needs their respect more than any player in the league.

I think the Clippers need him to make the leap so to speak to be real contenders. I think they could have even if Blake and DJ suck this year if they added a guy like Landry but oh well. Point is the Clippers hopes ride on Blake...and maybe DJ. I can actually see DJ benefiting a lot more from Doc than Blake. DJ shoots a terrible FT% but had a much better looking shot this year. If he can get his head right he can hit 60% minimum. He could the most improved player in the game defensively under Doc and a solid team defensive system. Wouldn't surprise me to see marginal improvement from Blake and a huge leap from DJ. What would that mean for the Clippers?

Cracka2HI!
07-12-2013, 02:28 AM
Just got done reading the thread and I'll take back one of my main points. He just needs to be more decisive. He doesn't need to go back to "drive drive drive mode". The youtube CF86 posted and all of Chronz analysis convinced me I am too down on Blake because of his whining. He has a complete game. Honestly I don't think he will whine with Doc as coach.

jam
07-12-2013, 08:23 AM
More crappy Kia commercials.

rocketfuel
07-12-2013, 10:14 AM
Evaluate his game, strengths and weaknesses:

Offense
Defense
Post moves
Shooting ability

This guy is one of the most athletic big man. He should be destroying teams.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 10:50 AM
Just got done reading the thread and I'll take back one of my main points. He just needs to be more decisive. He doesn't need to go back to "drive drive drive mode". The youtube CF86 posted and all of Chronz analysis convinced me I am too down on Blake because of his whining. He has a complete game. Honestly I don't think he will whine with Doc as coach.

His love for passing prevents him from being a drive - drive guy, but thats actually something we are both hoping for. I did say I want his shot to improve, but more than anything I want him to be a quick hitter on the ball. Either drive, shoot or pass within 1 second of catching the ball.

Melo used to have this problem in his youth and hes improved alot in that regard. I didn't know what to think of Blake and Melo practicing together but the more I think about it, he needs some Melo in him. Hes already got the passing down, he needs to get the scoring instincts down. Either that or improve his post game to the point where he can take as long as he wants.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 10:54 AM
Well if you are giving me just those two statistics (Points-Rebounds), without any type of more important statistics (Efficiency-Minutes).... Then yes I would think more highly of his growth and potential.
Dont need advanced stats if you understand the concept. Leaps of improvement from small beginnings vs gradual improvement from an All-Star foundation. You've answered that, I dont agree with it but I get it.


But it works the same way, he went from a 23-12 player to a 18-8 player. That is why it looks like he has regressed.
Thats not what I was talking about in this comp. All else is equal in this comparison (minutes-efficiency) whats improved in this comparison are his rate stats.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 12:22 PM
His love for passing prevents him from being a drive - drive guy, but thats actually something we are both hoping for. I did say I want his shot to improve, but more than anything I want him to be a quick hitter on the ball. Either drive, shoot or pass within 1 second of catching the ball.

Melo used to have this problem in his youth and hes improved alot in that regard. I didn't know what to think of Blake and Melo practicing together but the more I think about it, he needs some Melo in him. Hes already got the passing down, he needs to get the scoring instincts down. Either that or improve his post game to the point where he can take as long as he wants.

Agree with you guys. The big problem here is the hesitation. Oddly enough I feel CP3's brilliance has made Blake more insecure and unsure than ever before. In his rookie year he never paused for 10 seconds figuring out what to do. He played off 100 percent instinct. Since CP3 joined he's thinking WAY too much and doing too little. Once you catch the ball it shouldn't take 10 seconds to assess. If you're guarded one on one... face up and attack the rim for free throws or a dunk. If you see a second defender.. drive and kick or back down in the post and kick to the perimeter.

Greet
07-12-2013, 12:29 PM
Dont need advanced stats if you understand the concept. Leaps of improvement from small beginnings vs gradual improvement from an All-Star foundation. You've answered that, I dont agree with it but I get it.


Thats not what I was talking about in this comp. All else is equal in this comparison (minutes-efficiency) whats improved in this comparison are his rate stats.

How would you perceive it then?

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 01:05 PM
His offense is good enough for them with the new additions. He'll get 18-20 points a night. I don't think he's ever going to be a true dominant low post scorer. That just isn't his game. The biggest thing I think he needs to work on is being more effective in the pick and pop. That will open things up for others on the drive as well as himself. His passing is already elite for a PF and we know what he can do around the rim so he's set there. I honestly just don't see him ever developing that low post game. Everything else except the jump shot is already there. Just gotta get that down. Even as is he's good enough for the Clips to go where they need to go... on offense at least.

Defensively is where he needs to really improve. Right now the Clippers aren't good enough inside on defense. Not even close. Unless Blake and DJ make huge strides there the Clippers won't get to where they want to be.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 01:11 PM
His offense is good enough for them with the new additions. He'll get 18-20 points a night. I don't think he's ever going to be a true dominant low post scorer. That just isn't his game. The biggest thing I think he needs to work on is being more effective in the pick and pop. That will open things up for others on the drive as well as himself. His passing is already elite for a PF and we know what he can do around the rim so he's set there. I honestly just don't see him ever developing that low post game. Everything else except the jump shot is already there. Just gotta get that down. Even as is he's good enough for the Clips to go where they need to go... on offense at least.

Defensively is where he needs to really improve. Right now the Clippers aren't good enough inside on defense. Not even close. Unless Blake and DJ make huge strides there the Clippers won't get to where they want to be.

2nd ranked in points in the paint allowed, 2nd ranked in 2 point field goal defense. 27th ranked the last 3 years in perimeter defense. I agree with much of your post but the paint vs perimeter success of the Clippers is a HUGE misnomer. For example in the playoffs sure we got killed inside but got we got equally torched from outside. Griffin was actually our 2nd best defensive starter after CP3. Billups, Butler and DJ were far more inconsistent on the defensive end.

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 01:17 PM
2nd ranked in points in the paint allowed, 2nd ranked in 2 point field goal defense. 27th ranked the last 3 years in perimeter defense. I agree with much of your post but the paint vs perimeter success of the Clippers is a HUGE misnomer. For example in the playoffs sure we got killed inside but got we got equally torched from outside. Griffin was actually our 2nd best defensive starter after CP3. Billups, Butler and DJ were far more inconsistent on the defensive end.

You just said how terrible the Clippers perimeter defense was. So telling me that Blake is better than them (and DJ, but he's not a good defender either) doesn't hold much weight.

And defense is a team concept. Total team. Perimeter defense becomes much easier when the bigs can be counted on to be sound in their rotations and do their job. For instance you complain about the lack of 3 point D but that could be a result of the smalls having to rotate inside to cover up a missed rotation down low, setting up an open 3 for the other team. That shows up as perimeter defense on the stats but tat doesn't tell the whole story. If Blake and DJ improve on defense, the perimeter D will as well. Just because an area isn't the weakest link on your team doesn't mean it doesn't have to be improved. Hell, teams should even be working to improve the strongest areas of their team.

Blitzbolt
07-12-2013, 01:28 PM
Is all mental for blake vets like zbo and Duncan are just better then him because of how weak he is mentally.

Jabears85
07-12-2013, 01:47 PM
In my honest opinion, Blake is one of those players to me that will NEVER reach his full potential, and will fizzle out when his crazy leaping ability starts going.

He is more of a fun guy to watch, then a true winner.

Ya, one more knee injury like his first one when he came into the league and he might be done

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 01:51 PM
You just said how terrible the Clippers perimeter defense was. So telling me that Blake is better than them (and DJ, but he's not a good defender either) doesn't hold much weight.

And defense is a team concept. Total team. Perimeter defense becomes much easier when the bigs can be counted on to be sound in their rotations and do their job. For instance you complain about the lack of 3 point D but that could be a result of the smalls having to rotate inside to cover up a missed rotation down low, setting up an open 3 for the other team. That shows up as perimeter defense on the stats but tat doesn't tell the whole story. If Blake and DJ improve on defense, the perimeter D will as well. Just because an area isn't the weakest link on your team doesn't mean it doesn't have to be improved. Hell, teams should even be working to improve the strongest areas of their team.

Huh? I was responding directly to you saying our post defense is the weak link. When in fact our perimeter D is infinitely worse. In fact we were easily a top 5 paint team on both ends. I never said Blake and DJ are complete on D because they have a long ways to go. Just saying nobody talks about our perimeter play which was atrocious outside of CP3 defensively last year, instead they zero in on Blake and DJ. Blake was our second best starting defender and maybe 4th best defender on the team despite his so called bad defense reputation. After CP3, Bledsoe and Barnes there wasn't a more consistent defender on our squad. Odom started first half of the season amazing defensively but after shedding 20 pounds his defense plummeted which I can't figure out for the life of me.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/

Check out this website. Gives team production from every category imaginable.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 01:53 PM
You just said how terrible the Clippers perimeter defense was. So telling me that Blake is better than them (and DJ, but he's not a good defender either) doesn't hold much weight.

And defense is a team concept. Total team. Perimeter defense becomes much easier when the bigs can be counted on to be sound in their rotations and do their job. For instance you complain about the lack of 3 point D but that could be a result of the smalls having to rotate inside to cover up a missed rotation down low, setting up an open 3 for the other team. That shows up as perimeter defense on the stats but tat doesn't tell the whole story. If Blake and DJ improve on defense, the perimeter D will as well. Just because an area isn't the weakest link on your team doesn't mean it doesn't have to be improved. Hell, teams should even be working to improve the strongest areas of their team.

Thats exactly what happened except I wouldn't just cast the blame on any 1 player really. It was a product of our system. Our bigs were scrambling/blitzing defensively alot more than last year, leaving the perimeter players to stunt any forays to the rim. I dont think Blake was our 2nd best defender in the playoffs so I dont know what hes talking about, seemed like everyone played **** defense so even if hes right, not seeing the point.

Blake and DJ have flashes of greatness, which is a considerate improvement upon last year when Blake showed alot less and even worse his Rookie season. This is the year they should get their system down, top-5 defense isn't out of the question.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 01:56 PM
Huh? I was responding directly to you saying our post defense is the weak link. When in fact our perimeter D is infinitely worse. In fact we were easily a top 5 paint team on both ends. I never said Blake and DJ are complete on D because they have a long ways to go. Just saying nobody talks about our perimeter play which was atrocious outside of CP3 defensively last year, instead they zero in on Blake and DJ.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/

Check out this website. Gives team production from every category imaginable.
He already addressed why those stats are worthless, I will repeat his post here since you obviously missed it.



For instance you complain about the lack of 3 point D but that could be a result of the smalls having to rotate inside to cover up a missed rotation down low, setting up an open 3 for the other team. That shows up as perimeter defense on the stats but tat doesn't tell the whole story.

Blake has made strides, DJ regressed, the end result is that while our defense improved, it was wildly inconsistent and our lack of post D was THE REASON we lost when the games mattered most, the playoffs.

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 02:00 PM
Perimeter D isn't nearly as important as interior D. It all starts inside. If you can prevent guys from getting points in the paint your perimeter guys can stick a little tighter to the outside guys. Not getting KG is what I believe what will ultimately derail the Clippers title hopes. If they had been able to swap DJ for KG I'd feel much differently about their chances. That swap would have done more for the Clips' D than any perimeter additions.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:01 PM
How would you perceive it then?
Im just talking out of my *** at this point, I have no idea which is a better indicator of a potential break out but Id much rather have a player be better at every point of his career. The only reason I wouldn't want my player to break out younger, would be for the purpose of sucking early and thus getting better picks, so that when my prospect does break out, we have a better supporting cast in place.

I think part of the reason Cleveland couldn't find a running mate for James was because he was too good, too soon. He was basically a superstar in Y2. Whereas a guy like Durant was very inefficient his first few years, couldn't play defense and had absolutely no floor game. This meant OKC sucked but it also meant they could amass talent far more easily.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:07 PM
His offense is good enough for them with the new additions. He'll get 18-20 points a night. I don't think he's ever going to be a true dominant low post scorer. That just isn't his game. The biggest thing I think he needs to work on is being more effective in the pick and pop. That will open things up for others on the drive as well as himself. His passing is already elite for a PF and we know what he can do around the rim so he's set there. I honestly just don't see him ever developing that low post game. Everything else except the jump shot is already there. Just gotta get that down. Even as is he's good enough for the Clips to go where they need to go... on offense at least.

Defensively is where he needs to really improve. Right now the Clippers aren't good enough inside on defense. Not even close. Unless Blake and DJ make huge strides there the Clippers won't get to where they want to be.

Agreed 90%. I do feel more highly for his post game and I do think his offensive strengths have room to improve but that could be my blinders at work. Defensively is where Blake has made the most strides but hes sucked balls in the post season. Sadly I dont know how much more Blake can improve defensively, he doesn't quite have the tools but one thing he did this year was push players out of the lane when posting up. An important growth area considering his lack of length to challenge shots inside.

Blake had some back problems going into the playoffs, and then he injured his ankle, so maybe Im being too down on his defensive efforts. Maybe he couldn't quite push off the way hes accustomed to. I know Z-Bo and Gasol weren't having their way with us like that before.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:08 PM
Is all mental for blake vets like zbo and Duncan are just better then him because of how weak he is mentally.
Based on what?

Pretty sure its mostly physical with him. If hes not healthy, his game really struggles.

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 02:08 PM
Im just talking out of my *** at this point, I have no idea which is a better indicator of a potential break out but Id much rather have a player be better at every point of his career. The only reason I wouldn't want my player to break out younger, would be for the purpose of sucking early and thus getting better picks, so that when my prospect does break out, we have a better supporting cast in place.

I think part of the reason Cleveland couldn't find a running mate for James was because he was too good, too soon. He was basically a superstar in Y2. Whereas a guy like Durant was very inefficient his first few years, couldn't play defense and had absolutely no floor game. This meant OKC sucked but it also meant they could amass talent far more easily.

That's actually one of the more interesting takes I've heard on Lebron's CLE tenure. I had never thought of that but it makes perfect sense. He elevated them by himself to that dark area in the NBA - too good to get high picks, not good enough to seriously compete for a title. Then CLE compounded the problem by so many of those mid level vet type additions. (But this is where I place most of the blame on Lebron - his indifference towards re-signing there put CLE in a position where they constantly felt the pressure to appease him and prove themselves serious about winning. That led to them locking themselves in long term hell in exchange for moderate short term gain. As opposed to MIA who was able to plan for the long term because Wade always remained on board. Just as an aside, when I call Lebron out for screwing CLE over this is what I mean. Not that stupid "The Decision" crap.)

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 02:12 PM
Agreed 90%. I do feel more highly for his post game and I do think his offensive strengths have room to improve but that could be my blinders at work. Defensively is where Blake has made the most strides but hes sucked balls in the post season. Sadly I dont know how much more Blake can improve defensively, he doesn't quite have the tools but one thing he did this year was push players out of the lane when posting up. An important growth area considering his lack of length to challenge shots inside.

Blake had some back problems going into the playoffs, and then he injured his ankle, so maybe Im being too down on his defensive efforts. Maybe he couldn't quite push off the way hes accustomed to. I know Z-Bo and Gasol weren't having their way with us like that before.

Even if the great post game does come I think that's something that's going to take time. Not a next year thing - more a gradual improvement over the next 2-3 (maybe even more) year.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:12 PM
Perimeter D isn't nearly as important as interior D. It all starts inside. If you can prevent guys from getting points in the paint your perimeter guys can stick a little tighter to the outside guys. Not getting KG is what I believe what will ultimately derail the Clippers title hopes. If they had been able to swap DJ for KG I'd feel much differently about their chances. That swap would have done more for the Clips' D than any perimeter additions.

Agreed on KG. I will never forget that lapse, another case of a team overvaluing chemistry in place of championship talent.

And I dont know what the best route for this team is defensively. We have tried 2 separate systems in 2 years and Im assuming we will now try a third with Doc (hopefully) implementing Thibs strat. It wouldn't be too far off from what we did last year but I think Doc will do a better job of sustaining the effort. I will give Vinny credit tho, he unleashed Blake defensively but in the process hurt the best thing DJ brought, his shot blocking gambles.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 02:17 PM
He already addressed why those stats are worthless, I will repeat his post here since you obviously missed it.




Blake has made strides, DJ regressed, the end result is that while our defense improved, it was wildly inconsistent and our lack of post D was THE REASON we lost when the games mattered most, the playoffs.

Yes I did miss that part and yes that is true.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:18 PM
That's actually one of the more interesting takes I've heard on Lebron's CLE tenure. I had never thought of that but it makes perfect sense. He elevated them by himself to that dark area in the NBA - too good to get high picks, not good enough to seriously compete for a title. Then CLE compounded the problem by so many of those mid level vet type additions. (But this is where I place most of the blame on Lebron - his indifference towards re-signing there put CLE in a position where they constantly felt the pressure to appease him and prove themselves serious about winning. That led to them locking themselves in long term hell in exchange for moderate short term gain. As opposed to MIA who was able to plan for the long term because Wade always remained on board. Just as an aside, when I call Lebron out for screwing CLE over this is what I mean. Not that stupid "The Decision" crap.)
You would definitely have to rehash every move they ever made and decide whether it was Bron's doing or not. There were also lots of rumors of players they could have had but never pulled the trigger on, despite Bron's support. I do agree that management was pressured by Bron to win ASAP, but its a problem compounded by managerial negligence, remember this is the same team that traded a first round pick (Rudy F) for Jiri Welsh (iirc) and within a span of a few months, downgraded that same player into a 2nd rounder. You cant make those kind of mistakes when you're a small market.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Doc was more important than KG and we couldn't have both. Chronz the Celtics were demanding the world for KG at the deadline which is why the Clippers didn't go for it. Besides remember DJ always does well the first two months of the season or so. I'm sure if he played the way he did in March/April/May before the deadline he would be gone. If the league didn't say they would veto the trade this summer we would have been great.

I think a decade of Doc (highly doubt we let him go if we are already paying him 7 mill anyways) is FAR more valuable for the long and short term than having a year or two max of KG. KG absolutely could have made us THE best defense in the league but even without him we have a good shot at top 5. 9th last year, 4th first half of the year and that was under VINNY DEL NEGRO.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 02:33 PM
I saw something like the Celtics wanted Bledsoe, DJ, picks and other pieces for KG+Pierce at the deadline. Sure it would have made us better but I'd MUCH rather have Doc+Redick+Dudley plus the full MLE to get guys like Collison and Barnes. Basically I think the results were better this way than they could have been. We got a few skill based players in their late 20's... instead of getting 36 and 38 (when season starts) year old players who will retire in 2 years max. Clippers figured Pierce would be bought out (most people thought so) and they could pick him up as a free agent anyways.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:41 PM
Doc was more important than KG and we couldn't have both.
But isnt Doc is irrelevant to any potential deadline deal?


Chronz the Celtics were demanding the world for KG at the deadline which is why the Clippers didn't go for it.
I heard they would have done it for DJ and a pick. That Pierce could be included if we added Bledsoe+Odom+Butler or something. If thats what it would have taken, we are fools for not doing so IMO.


Besides remember DJ always does well the first two months of the season or so. I'm sure if he played the way he did in March/April/May before the deadline he would be gone. Agreed, but we were allegedly going to trade him for AV before he got injured, if we can move him for AV, we can move him for KG.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 02:45 PM
I saw something like the Celtics wanted Bledsoe, DJ, picks and other pieces for KG+Pierce at the deadline. Sure it would have made us better but I'd MUCH rather have Doc+Redick+Dudley plus the full MLE to get guys like Collison and Barnes. Basically I think the results were better this way than they could have been. We got a few skill based players in their late 20's... instead of getting 36 and 38 (when season starts) year old players who will retire in 2 years max. Clippers figured Pierce would be bought out (most people thought so) and they could pick him up as a free agent anyways.

Yea thats the deal I heard. And Doc coming to Boston would have most definitely happened with Pierce+KG already on board so I fail to see the point of mentioning him. If you were to ASK HIM, he would definitely prefer the KG deal.

And keep in mind, its not just about the players, its about the wasted season. If KG+Pierce could have taken us to the Finals, then I couldnt care less about future ramifications, and because I do believe those guys would have taken us to the next level, I wont be convinced that a smorgasbord of role players would be preferable. Particularly when we could have gotten some of them regardless.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 02:57 PM
I agree it was a wasted season for sure, although think of it this way. If we DO make that trade and get to the WCF let's say... what are the odds we fire Vinny and get Doc? Or are able to have the cap to retain Barnes, sign Collison, trade for more shooters?

I don't think Doc would have just jumped ship because I don't see the Clippers firing Vinny if we get to the WCF or finals. Which is why I told you guys before the playoffs a part of me actually WANTED us to get waxed early because I knew we would be FORCED to get a great coach and upgrade the roster. Now we have a much bigger title window than we would have had with KG+Pierce+Vinny. By the start of the season Paul will be 28, DJ 25, Blake 24, Dudley 28, Redick 29 (turned 29 couple weeks ago). These are all skill based players besides the youngest two (Blake and DJ) which bodes well for the long term because they will likely age well. I think we have a good 5-6 year title window now.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 03:39 PM
I agree it was a wasted season for sure, although think of it this way. If we DO make that trade and get to the WCF let's say... what are the odds we fire Vinny and get Doc?
I didn't think of it this way. I want to say we would have pounced on Doc regardless. We still have to appease CP3 even if we do have more success. But with the Clips, you cant just bank on rationality .

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 06:00 PM
I didn't think of it this way. I want to say we would have pounced on Doc regardless. We still have to appease CP3 even if we do have more success. But with the Clips, you cant just bank on rationality .

Well I'd argue the RATIONAL thing to do would be to pursue Doc, which is exactly why I feel we would have stuck with Vinny if we made a deep playoff run. I don't trust our front office enough to be cutthroat to fire a coach who gets to the WCF or finals.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 06:09 PM
Well I'd argue the RATIONAL thing to do would be to pursue Doc, which is exactly why I feel we would have stuck with Vinny if we made a deep playoff run.
The rational thing to do would be to upgrade regardless of any relative amount of success.


I don't trust our front office enough to be cutthroat to fire a coach who gets to the WCF or finals.
Im more optimistic I guess.

hugepatsfan
07-12-2013, 06:37 PM
The Clippers weren't the only team that inquired about Doc. The Nets did as well. They still would have done that if KG and Pierce got shipped to LAC last year. You know if rumors of Doc being on the market were out there PP and KG would want him. CP3 would too and he still would have been a FA. I definitely think Doc still would be the Clippers head coach right now.

And there still would have been the money for Barnes and Collison as well. That came from the MLE which still would have been available. The group LAC has now has a longer window together but it isn't as wide open in the next couple of years. The current core could play together for another 5 seasons. KG and Pierce only would be there for 2, maybe 3 runs. But the team would be stronger than any individual one in the current window. IMO of course, but the Celtics fan in me might be overrating KG and PP. I think they're in the top 6-10 at their positions and will be next season and borderline that good even the year after that if they decide to play (obviously down closer to 10 at that point).

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 06:41 PM
The Clippers weren't the only team that inquired about Doc. The Nets did as well. They still would have done that if KG and Pierce got shipped to LAC last year. You know if rumors of Doc being on the market were out there PP and KG would want him. CP3 would too and he still would have been a FA. I definitely think Doc still would be the Clippers head coach right now.

And there still would have been the money for Barnes and Collison as well. That came from the MLE which still would have been available. The group LAC has now has a longer window together but it isn't as wide open in the next couple of years. The current core could play together for another 5 seasons. KG and Pierce only would be there for 2, maybe 3 runs. But the team would be stronger than any individual one in the current window. IMO of course, but the Celtics fan in me might be overrating KG and PP. I think they're in the top 6-10 at their positions and will be next season and borderline that good even the year after that if they decide to play (obviously down closer to 10 at that point).

If we take on Pierce+KG I'm pretty sure we drop down to the MINI MLE of 3.1 mill which makes it impossible to get both. In fact Barnes alone got more than that. David Stern's abuse of power has no bounds.. even a couple months apart wouldn't be surprised if he disallowed as second Celtics/Clippers transaction but who knows.

Talent wise Pierce+KG are FAR superior but JJ+Dudley+Collison+DJ combined are going to last longer and have more balance/fit probably. I love Pierce 110 percent but KG already has bickered about playing center in the smaller east... imagine how he would feel in the west?

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 06:54 PM
PS Reggie Bullock is already our best shooter next to JJ and I'm going to homer him just like I did Bledsoe. He's bombing Ray Allen style in summer league today. Only two misses were threes that went deep in the rim and out, 11 points at halftime. I think this kid is going to be a rotation player for us for years to come.

Even his misses are beautiful and bring tears to my eyes.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 07:26 PM
I saw this posted on another forum and for people knocking Blake's game this is pretty telling considering most call Dwight the premier bigman. Dwight's an 8 year vet, Blake a 3 year vet. You also see what I've said since day one, which is that CP3 hasn't fed Blake as much as people claim. I hope Doc+CP3 can use him more effectively this year.



AT THE RIM:
Blake - 330/431 FG (.766) - .712 %Ast'd
Dwight - 358/508 FG (.705) - .718 %Ast'd

3 TO <10 FT:
Blake - 144/309 FG (.466) - .479 %Ast'd
Dwight - 128/303 FG (.422) - .641 %Ast'd

10 TO 16 FT:
Blake - 39/109 FG (.358) - .385 %Ast'd
Dwight - 6-23 FG (.261) - .833 %Ast'd

16 TO <3PT:
Blake - 88/259 FG (.340) - .727 %Ast'd
Dwight - 3/15 FG (.200) - 1.000 %Ast'd


DUNKS:
Blake - 207/219 FG (.945) - .831 %Ast'd
Dwight - 197/210 FG (.938) - .787 %Ast'd

HOOK SHOTS:
Blake - 64/119 FG (.538) - .375 %Ast'd
Dwight - 83/182 FG (.456) - .627 %Ast'd

LAY-UP:
Blake - 148/239 FG (.619) - .615 %Ast'd
Dwight - 166/281 FG (.591) - .705 %Ast'd



Blake's is much better in every way offensively. These numbers show he's creating a lot for himself too. Now he just needs to be more aggressive and keep working on that D.

Chronz
07-12-2013, 07:47 PM
PS Reggie Bullock is already our best shooter next to JJ and I'm going to homer him just like I did Bledsoe. He's bombing Ray Allen style in summer league today. Only two misses were threes that went deep in the rim and out, 11 points at halftime. I think this kid is going to be a rotation player for us for years to come.

Even his misses are beautiful and bring tears to my eyes.
I like him too but we got a pretty crowded perimeter crew. I hope he makes one of them expendable but Ill wait to see him in the pros before getting carried away. I like the pick tho, seemed like a predictable pick, hand and glove fit with the personnel.



Not sure what your post about Dwight vs Blake is suppose to hint at.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 10:07 PM
Chronz the point was his post game is being shredded in here but its underrated.

Clippersfan86
07-12-2013, 10:08 PM
Reggie will replace Barnes as he gets older probably.

Cracka2HI!
07-12-2013, 11:24 PM
I agree it was a wasted season for sure, although think of it this way. If we DO make that trade and get to the WCF let's say... what are the odds we fire Vinny and get Doc? Or are able to have the cap to retain Barnes, sign Collison, trade for more shooters?

I don't think Doc would have just jumped ship because I don't see the Clippers firing Vinny if we get to the WCF or finals. Which is why I told you guys before the playoffs a part of me actually WANTED us to get waxed early because I knew we would be FORCED to get a great coach and upgrade the roster. Now we have a much bigger title window than we would have had with KG+Pierce+Vinny. By the start of the season Paul will be 28, DJ 25, Blake 24, Dudley 28, Redick 29 (turned 29 couple weeks ago). These are all skill based players besides the youngest two (Blake and DJ) which bodes well for the long term because they will likely age well. I think we have a good 5-6 year title window now.

Hate to say it but I pretty much agree with all of this. If we make the trade we probably go to the WCF lose to the Spurs and retain VDN. KG and PP retire in a year or 2 and we have CP3 and Blake on max deals and nothing else. I didn't want KG. I'd have loved Pierce for free. I have high hopes for DJ still, I was always against moving him for KG. Only because of their age and DJ's athleticism. I know it's overrated in this game, but DJ is a freak. Way more physically gifted than Blake. We have the 2 most athletic bigs in the game. In theory they could be the best. Has a team ever had that before?

Clippersfan86
07-13-2013, 01:00 AM
Hate to say it but I pretty much agree with all of this. If we make the trade we probably go to the WCF lose to the Spurs and retain VDN. KG and PP retire in a year or 2 and we have CP3 and Blake on max deals and nothing else. I didn't want KG. I'd have loved Pierce for free. I have high hopes for DJ still, I was always against moving him for KG. Only because of their age and DJ's athleticism. I know it's overrated in this game, but DJ is a freak. Way more physically gifted than Blake. We have the 2 most athletic bigs in the game. In theory they could be the best. Has a team ever had that before?

Agree :cheers:. I have zero regrets for our team in the way this has turned out. Well I guess my only regret is blowing a no brainer decision by drafting Aminu over George and Hayward recently.

amos1er
07-13-2013, 01:30 AM
Griffin is indeed the X-Factor. If the Clips go the the WCF, than it was most liley because he played up to expectations. If they don't make it past the first round again, then it wlll most likely be because he was a disappointment. We know what to expect from CP3. The jury is still out on Griffin. The pressure is on this season.

Clippersfan86
07-13-2013, 01:47 AM
Griffin is indeed the X-Factor. If the Clips go the the WCF, than it was most liley because he played up to expectations. If they don't make it past the first round again, then it wlll most likely be because he was a disappointment. We know what to expect from CP3. The jury is still out on Griffin. The pressure is on this season.

DJ is getting 11 million a year to be our 3rd guy and defensive anchor. His picture hangs on a hotel with Blake and CP3. Point is.. it's Blake and DJ, not one or the other although of course Blake has higher expectations.

True Sports Fan
07-13-2013, 03:17 AM
I'm 50/50 on Blake after this year. I almost think his improving range is hurting his overall effectiveness. He wasn't aggressive enough this year but his jumper was much improved even if the stats may not show it. His stoke is looking good and his range was much further. However he always had the split second where he thought to shoot on plays he used to go straight the hole and bash while the D stayed off the poster. There was almost none of that and I think it's because he was unsure if he should shoot or drive much of the time. He needs to get back to drive drive drive mode. The hesitation really hurt him.

Blake's other big issue is something I have grown to HATE about him and it really changed the way I feel about him as a player. He cries. All the Fn time. I think his flopping is way overstated(not to say he never flops) but his whining is not. He cries for a foul on every play and thinks he never commits a foul. I know you can say that about all players but it's really annoying when it's your former favorite player doing it. I really don't like guys like that. CP3 complains more than Blake but he never stops playing to cry. There is a huge difference. Blake lets the refs take him completely out of his game. CP3 would never let anything do that, especially the refs. No matter how much CP3 chirps you can't say the refs don't respect him. They don't respect Blake and he needs their respect more than any player in the league.
I think the Clippers need him to make the leap so to speak to be real contenders. I think they could have even if Blake and DJ suck this year if they added a guy like Landry but oh well. Point is the Clippers hopes ride on Blake...and maybe DJ. I can actually see DJ benefiting a lot more from Doc than Blake. DJ shoots a terrible FT% but had a much better looking shot this year. If he can get his head right he can hit 60% minimum. He could the most improved player in the game defensively under Doc and a solid team defensive system. Wouldn't surprise me to see marginal improvement from Blake and a huge leap from DJ. What would that mean for the Clippers?

I think you can add DeMarcus Cousins right up there as well

Chronz
07-13-2013, 09:03 AM
Agree :cheers:. I have zero regrets for our team in the way this has turned out. Well I guess my only regret is blowing a no brainer decision by drafting Aminu over George and Hayward recently.

So George is the prospect that would make you want Vinny as our coach....

goingfor28
07-13-2013, 09:13 AM
W adding JJ and Dudley I think he improves. Teams won't double as much or funnel into the paint

Cracka2HI!
07-14-2013, 07:03 AM
Agree :cheers:. I have zero regrets for our team in the way this has turned out. Well I guess my only regret is blowing a no brainer decision by drafting Aminu over George and Hayward recently.

It wouldn't have mattered because either player would have been to NO for CP3. I did really want George though because he wanted to be a Clipper.

Clippersfan86
07-14-2013, 12:43 PM
It wouldn't have mattered because either player would have been to NO for CP3. I did really want George though because he wanted to be a Clipper.

People say this but they were demanding Bledsoe. That in itself is an upgrade to Aminu and exactly what they wanted, so why would we have had to give George? Besides remember George was an 8 ppg rookie going into that summer so doubt they demand him, when nobody knew he was that good. Give Bledsoe instead. Then we have CP3, Griffin and George/Hayward.

Tony_Starks
07-14-2013, 01:08 PM
For what it's worth Blake's J and passing game both improved last season. Doc is the best coach he could hope for though, he very well might be the best PF in the league next year. He's already 20 and 10 on a bad day...

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 12:49 PM
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9569855/blake-griffin-los-angeles-clippers-agrees-chris-paul

Interesting and very good response. This is a direct response from Blake to being challenged by Chris Paul a couple weeks ago. When Chris said basically the hopes of the team rest on Blake Griffin. I'm expecting a huge year out of Blake.






"Paul has a huge role on this team," Griffin said Thursday in an interview with ESPNLosAngeles.com. "He's been the guy who has closed out a lot of games late for us. But in my mind, this is the year I need to step into that role and really help him shoulder that load. I'll be right there with him at the end of games, being the guy that he can always count on."


"To be honest, I'm more excited about this upcoming season than I've ever been," Griffin said. "My workouts with [shooting coach] Bob Thate and our coaches have been geared around figuring out how I'm going to be used this season."

"I'm doing a lot of stuff at the elbow, a lot of shooting. One of the things [new coach Doc Rivers] said to me was, 'I don't want you to be afraid to go 0-for-15.' In other words, just have the mindset of a shooter. And with the work I've done this summer, I'm starting to get that confidence and think like a shooter."

"This summer has been so great for me. I've had a completely healthy, full summer to be able to work with our coaching staff, once I got over the ankle thing. This summer has been huge for me, and it's one of the reasons I'm so excited about next year."

Griffin said he sat out about a month after the Clippers' season ended to rest and let his badly sprained ankle heal.

"It lingered for a little over a month," he said of the ankle injury that hampered him in Games 5 and 6 of the Memphis series. "But by the time I was back to working out, it was fine. I won't really take that much time off the rest of the summer. I want to keep the training going."

Hawkeye15
08-15-2013, 01:15 PM
"I'm doing a lot of stuff at the elbow, a lot of shooting. One of the things [new coach Doc Rivers] said to me was, 'I don't want you to be afraid to go 0-for-15.' In other words, just have the mindset of a shooter. And with the work I've done this summer, I'm starting to get that confidence and think like a shooter."

While obviously if Griffin turns into an excellent midrange shooter my comment is void, but if he ends up falling in love with his jumper versus being a rim attacker, the Clips opponent will take that all night.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 01:20 PM
While obviously if Griffin turns into an excellent midrange shooter my comment is void, but if he ends up falling in love with his jumper versus being a rim attacker, the Clips opponent will take that all night.

Definitely true. The key according to Gentry+Doc is they want him to do far less backing defenders down 10 feet and more facing up and attacking. Work in that Amare/KG 15 foot area where he either attacks, shoots or passes immediately. They want to remove all the pausing and sloppy backdowns followed by off balance hook shots. With Griffin's quickness and explosiveness nobody is guarding him 1 on 1 in the faceup if he actually attacks instead of looking confused.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2013, 01:23 PM
Definitely true. The key according to Gentry+Doc is they want him to do far less backing defenders down 10 feet and more facing up and attacking. Work in that Amare/KG 15 foot area where he either attacks, shoots or passes immediately. They want to remove all the pausing and sloppy backdowns followed by off balance hook shots. With Griffin's quickness and explosiveness nobody is guarding him 1 on 1 in the faceup if he actually attacks instead of looking confused.

I can agree with that. Just don't fall in love with that jumper young fella!

JasonJohnHorn
08-15-2013, 01:28 PM
Well, first and foremost I expect BG to get more than 32 minutes a game. The guy is in his early 20's, unless every game is a blow with a 20+ lead/deficit going into the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no reason that BG shouldn't be playing 38-42 minutes a game.

20/10/4 is a great line and would make him better than any power forward not named Kevin Love. If that turns out to be his career average, he is a lock for the HOF. But he is also getting less rebounds each season. He went from 11 per36, to 10 to 9. He's got to put that up to 12-14. That is what a truly great power forward would be posting.

Other than that, I would expect him to improve his mid-range game. Some might encourage him to improve his post game, but the league rules discourage a true post game like we used to see with the back-to-the-basket rules. Ideally a versatile power forward should model his offensive game after Amare during his Phoenix days, or if he has range after a guy like Kevin Love. BG has some quick moves to the basket, so he should use that, but as he ages those moves become less quick and in turn less efficient, so he will need other tools to continue to play well.

This season though, with Doc as his coach, I expect most of his improvement won't show up in the stat lines. I expect his improvements will be on the defensive end.

Chronz
08-15-2013, 01:29 PM
I love me some post game, and Im sure Blake will still get a few touches but the days of him using heavy post ups might be done it seems. Which is prolly for the best, I want him to improve his back to the basket game to an elite level but given his body type, that was prolly unrealistic. I still hold hope tho, he was getting better every year in the post, perhaps mixing it up more will make him more effective all around, IF hes hitting that jumper.

Chronz
08-15-2013, 01:35 PM
Well, first and foremost I expect BG to get more than 32 minutes a game. The guy is in his early 20's, unless every game is a blow with a 20+ lead/deficit going into the last 10 minutes of the game, there is no reason that BG shouldn't be playing 38-42 minutes a game.
Well its not like he hasn't played heavy minutes before, he didn't play as much last year because we were winning alot of games in that fashion. If that continues, I would actually rather see him stay at 32MPG.


20/10/4 is a great line and would make him better than any power forward not named Kevin Love. If that turns out to be his career average, he is a lock for the HOF. But he is also getting less rebounds each season. He went from 11 per36, to 10 to 9. He's got to put that up to 12-14. That is what a truly great power forward would be posting.
You have to watch Blake to understand why the rebounds dropped. Hes spacing the floor more on offense and getting back defensively (which leads to less offensive rebound), hes also blitzing the PnR and helping more on drives to the rim, which puts him out of position (I think he also switched onto ball handlers more often), the net result is that hes a far better defender than he was when he focused solely on the boards. I compare it to how KG played when he arrived in Boston, except Blake is obviously not as gifted.

Still, when the payoff is improved defensive efficiency, isnt that worth it? I would love for him to master the art of tracking rebounds while providing superb help but I dont know how likely that is given his short wingspan. Maybe theres a better balance tho.



Other than that, I would expect him to improve his mid-range game. Some might encourage him to improve his post game, but the league rules discourage a true post game like we used to see with the back-to-the-basket rules. Ideally a versatile power forward should model his offensive game after Amare during his Phoenix days, or if he has range after a guy like Kevin Love. BG has some quick moves to the basket, so he should use that, but as he ages those moves become less quick and in turn less efficient, so he will need other tools to continue to play well.
Agreed.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 01:48 PM
I see both sides of it on the minutes discussion. If we are up by 20+ in 4th quarters no point in playing him more than 30-32 minutes. That being said Jason is correct that in any other circumstance he should be playing more. Most of our 20+ point blowouts were before the all star break so I understood the low minutes. But then you look at post all star break when we lost WAY more games, blew WAY less teams out and he played the same minutes, it's troubling. 32.5 minutes pre all star break, 32.5 minutes post all star break. Vinny had zero clue how to manage minutes or rotations. He ended up resting Blake like he was Pop saving Duncan for the playoffs and it didn't prevent a freak ankle injury in practice.

You can't run your young stars as if they are old men. Blake was 23 last year and could have easily shouldered 36-38 minutes per game.

Chronz
08-15-2013, 01:54 PM
I see both sides of it on the minutes discussion. If we are up by 20+ in 4th quarters no point in playing him more than 30-32 minutes. That being said Jason is correct that in any other circumstance he should be playing more. Most of our 20+ point blowouts were before the all star break so I understood the low minutes. But then you look at post all star break when we lost WAY more games, blew WAY less teams out and he played the same minutes, it's troubling. 32.5 minutes pre all star break, 32.5 minutes post all star break. Vinny had zero clue how to manage minutes or rotations. He ended up resting Blake like he was Pop saving Duncan for the playoffs and it didn't prevent a freak ankle injury in practice.

You can't run your young stars as if they are old men. Blake was 23 last year and could have easily shouldered 36-38 minutes per game.
You prolly right about that, after the early season success seemed like Vinny set the coach settings on auto. (NBA 2K reference FTW)

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 02:00 PM
You prolly right about that, after the early season success seemed like Vinny set the coach settings on auto. (NBA 2K reference FTW)

Haha, great reference.

apet8945
08-15-2013, 02:14 PM
I love me some post game, and Im sure Blake will still get a few touches but the days of him using heavy post ups might be done it seems. Which is prolly for the best, I want him to improve his back to the basket game to an elite level but given his body type, that was prolly unrealistic. I still hold hope tho, he was getting better every year in the post, perhaps mixing it up more will make him more effective all around, IF hes hitting that jumper.

Blake's back to the basket game is atrocious. He couldn't back people down with his back to the basket. He just awkwardly banged into his defender 2-3 times to no avail and then took an awkward and forced shot, or had to get bailed out. His ability to overpower people with his strength is in his face up game. With that size and athleticism, he can beat anyone to the hole. Blake needs to catch the ball and explode, none of that banging business. Only face up. Hopefully our new offensive system will allow him to do just that.

I'd like to see him incorporate more fakes and up and under moves to his arsenal as well. He needs to do that kind of stuff way more consistently so that he isn't predictable with his moves. And that killer spin move that he has, I need to start seeing more of it, like back in his rookie year.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2013, 03:40 PM
Blake's back to the basket game is atrocious. He couldn't back people down with his back to the basket. He just awkwardly banged into his defender 2-3 times to no avail and then took an awkward and forced shot, or had to get bailed out. His ability to overpower people with his strength is in his face up game. With that size and athleticism, he can beat anyone to the hole. Blake needs to catch the ball and explode, none of that banging business. Only face up. Hopefully our new offensive system will allow him to do just that.

I'd like to see him incorporate more fakes and up and under moves to his arsenal as well. He needs to do that kind of stuff way more consistently so that he isn't predictable with his moves. And that killer spin move that he has, I need to start seeing more of it, like back in his rookie year.

one of the reasons the Wolves had some success against you guys when we were healthy is that Pek guarded Blake, and you are exactly right. He would try to use a back to the basket game, and you aren't doing that against Pek. Blake can handle the ball very well for his position, so facing him up from 10-15 might work a lot, and will work, if that jumper is respectable.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 03:45 PM
one of the reasons the Wolves had some success against you guys when we were healthy is that Pek guarded Blake, and you are exactly right. He would try to use a back to the basket game, and you aren't doing that against Pek. Blake can handle the ball very well for his position, so facing him up from 10-15 might work a lot, and will work, if that jumper is respectable.

This is true but saying he can't back Pek down isn't saying much considering how big and strong that beast is. The ONLY 4 guys I've seen Blake literally unable to straight up back down 5-10 feet are... Pek, Kanter, Dwight and Chuckwagon. Basically the strongest players in the league. Even then he's backed them down SOME but it's nowhere near as effective against them. Blake has no trouble backing anybody else down although as I said earlier that style of basketball isn't effective in this day and age. Mainly because of how easy it is to double team a player doing this. If you face up and attack teams won't have as much of a chance to trap or double.

tredigs
08-15-2013, 04:22 PM
This is true but saying he can't back Pek down isn't saying much considering how big and strong that beast is. The ONLY 4 guys I've seen Blake literally unable to straight up back down 5-10 feet are... Pek, Kanter, Dwight and Chuckwagon. Basically the strongest players in the league. Even then he's backed them down SOME but it's nowhere near as effective against them. Blake has no trouble backing anybody else down although as I said earlier that style of basketball isn't effective in this day and age. Mainly because of how easy it is to double team a player doing this. If you face up and attack teams won't have as much of a chance to trap or double.

Have you seen him back down Bogut? I can't think of a time but I'm not sure how often they've matched up.

More to the point though, Blake is definitely strong as hell and damn good at getting his position. I think he's an underrated post passer too. He's a solid playmaker that should only get better.

apet8945
08-15-2013, 04:24 PM
This is true but saying he can't back Pek down isn't saying much considering how big and strong that beast is. The ONLY 4 guys I've seen Blake literally unable to straight up back down 5-10 feet are... Pek, Kanter, Dwight and Chuckwagon. Basically the strongest players in the league. Even then he's backed them down SOME but it's nowhere near as effective against them. Blake has no trouble backing anybody else down although as I said earlier that style of basketball isn't effective in this day and age. Mainly because of how easy it is to double team a player doing this. If you face up and attack teams won't have as much of a chance to trap or double.

Griffin has trouble against way more guys than just those 4 you mentioned. I remember him being completely shut down by Trevor Booker when he backed up into him and even smaller guys, like Shane Battier, gave Blake trouble. He couldn't move Battier either. There are more that I can't remember off the top of my head. He just isn't good with his back to the defender, plain and simple. But who cares? He doesn't need it. He's much better off utilizing his other skillsets.

tredigs
08-15-2013, 04:35 PM
Griffin has trouble against way more guys than just those 4 you mentioned. I remember him being completely shut down by Trevor Booker when he backed up into him and even smaller guys, like Shane Battier, gave Blake trouble. He couldn't move Battier either. There are more that I can't remember off the top of my head. He just isn't good with his back to the defender, plain and simple. But who cares? He doesn't need it. He's much better off utilizing his other skillsets.

He's one of the more awkward/athletic post players I've seen though. Even when he doesn't get ideal position he does some twerk spin move to get his shot off. I'm not sure how sustainable that is, but somehow it works for the kid.

apet8945
08-15-2013, 04:42 PM
He's one of the more awkward/athletic post players I've seen though. Even when he doesn't get ideal position he does some twerk spin move to get his shot off. I'm not sure how sustainable that is, but somehow it works for the kid.

That's true. I'm not saying Blake's entire post game is bad. His face up game is actually very good and will only improve as his jump shot improves. It's his back to the basket game that sucks. He just needs to go face up pretty much all the time and a lot of the awkwardness in his post game will disappear.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 04:42 PM
Apet quit exaggerating. I'm talking about consistently, not one play here or there. If that's the criteria than 50 or more guys can shut Blake down. 2 of Blake's 3 career triple doubles have come against Trevor Booker. Digs in Milwaukee Blake had zero issue throwing Bogut around in the post and absolutely obliterated the Bucks. Don't remember him matching up with Bogut since being in GS TBH

Clippersfan86
08-15-2013, 04:44 PM
Ryan Humphries gave Blake trouble as a rookie but Blake killed him the last two years when matched up. I'm talking about guys so strong you can't really move.

sammyvine
08-15-2013, 04:49 PM
he is so overrated

he isnt that good. not a great shooter, shot blocker., passer

just a dunker

Chronz
08-15-2013, 06:10 PM
he is so overrated

he isnt that good. not a great shooter, shot blocker., passer

just a dunker

Passer? LMFAO have you even watched Blake play?

Chronz
08-15-2013, 06:16 PM
Blake's back to the basket game is atrocious. He couldn't back people down with his back to the basket. He just awkwardly banged into his defender 2-3 times to no avail and then took an awkward and forced shot, or had to get bailed out. His ability to overpower people with his strength is in his face up game. With that size and athleticism, he can beat anyone to the hole. Blake needs to catch the ball and explode, none of that banging business. Only face up. Hopefully our new offensive system will allow him to do just that.

I'd like to see him incorporate more fakes and up and under moves to his arsenal as well. He needs to do that kind of stuff way more consistently so that he isn't predictable with his moves. And that killer spin move that he has, I need to start seeing more of it, like back in his rookie year.

I think you are being extreme but can you tell me how you want him to incorporate those up and under moves while maintaining that he should stick to facing up? Do you want him to post up or face up because how would a face-up up and under even look? Are you saying you want him to use the face up as the initial move that turns into a back to the basket move because if so, you are essentially agreeing with the post you quoted. Thats still a back to the basket move in my book.

MrfadeawayJB
08-15-2013, 10:02 PM
Beast. If rivers can't bring it out of him who can?

apet8945
08-16-2013, 04:44 AM
I think you are being extreme but can you tell me how you want him to incorporate those up and under moves while maintaining that he should stick to facing up? Do you want him to post up or face up because how would a face-up up and under even look? Are you saying you want him to use the face up as the initial move that turns into a back to the basket move because if so, you are essentially agreeing with the post you quoted. Thats still a back to the basket move in my book.

I would have no problem with Blake initially facing up and then going back into back to the basket. It's that kind of creativity that I felt was lacking in his post game last year and the year before. Honestly, I feel like Blake should be able to do the Dream Shake in all of it's variations almost as good as Hakeem did. He has the basketball IQ, the footwork and the ball handling ability, I don't know why he doesn't try to replicate Hakeem's game more.

The only thing I want to see gone though, which I saw too much of last year and the year before, is Blake thinking he can back his defender down with brute strength when he obviously can't do it. He struggles way more than succeeds when doing this and it makes him too predictable. I mean, our offense as a whole was too predictable and the coaching takes a lot of the blame for that. But Blake's a smart guy, he should be able to realize when something just doesn't work well, especially when in a 1 on 1 situation, and try to put himself into positions where he can be the most dominant. To me, him going to his face up game is doing exactly that. It doesn't allow the defense to send a second defender and Blake can use his explosiveness while he still has it.

But yeah, I just want him to become less predictable and more creative in the post. I think getting rid of the mentality of having to bang into his defender a few times will help in that aspect. Now whether achieving the rest means incorporating fakes into his repertoire or just drastically improving his jump shot or something else entirely, I guess he and his coaches know best. He just needs to become more unpredictable. Maybe just going to his face up game exclusively will be enough to allow that to happen, idk. I just thought incorporating more fakes would be the easiest way to do it.

apet8945
08-16-2013, 05:06 AM
Apet quit exaggerating. I'm talking about consistently, not one play here or there. If that's the criteria than 50 or more guys can shut Blake down. 2 of Blake's 3 career triple doubles have come against Trevor Booker. Digs in Milwaukee Blake had zero issue throwing Bogut around in the post and absolutely obliterated the Bucks. Don't remember him matching up with Bogut since being in GS TBH

If you ever get a chance, watch the replay of a game the Clippers had against the Wizards on January 19, 2013. You don't even have to watch the whole game, just watch the 4th quarter. This was the first game CP3 came back and played after missing 3 games, so the Clippers decided to let the offense flow through Blake, especially in the 4th quarter. They didn't feel CP3 could play hero like usual his first game back, so they made Blake the first option for that game. Blake had a miserable night and constantly tried to back down the likes of Booker, Okafor, Seraphin, and Nene throughout the game and looked awful doing it. The most baffling part about it was him electing to keep doing the same thing each and every time down the floor even though it was obviously not working. Coach takes some blame for this as well.

I realize this is a one game sample, but I've watched pretty much all Clippers games for a long time now. The way Blake worked with his back to the basket in that game is how he works in the post with his back to the basket in general, regardless of who his defender is. And more often than not, he ends up taking a forced shot or making a pass to someone to bail out the possession. You can't tell me you haven't noticed his tendency to do this. His ability to succeed with his face up game far outweighs his ability to succeed with his back to the basket. I'm not trying to bash Griffin for not being able to do one as well as the other, I just want to see him working to his strengths rather than his weaknesses. Now if he learned how to shoot a turn around jumper really well out of nowhere or something drastic like that, I wouldn't be opposed to him continuing to work with his back to the basket. But I think he's better served working face up only, at least for now. I think the new coaching staff will do wonders for him offensively.

Chronz
08-16-2013, 11:21 AM
I would have no problem with Blake initially facing up and then going back into back to the basket. It's that kind of creativity that I felt was lacking in his post game last year and the year before. Honestly, I feel like Blake should be able to do the Dream Shake in all of it's variations almost as good as Hakeem did. He has the basketball IQ, the footwork and the ball handling ability, I don't know why he doesn't try to replicate Hakeem's game more.
I couldn't agree more, but lets not forget that even Dream needed some time, tho he was a superior athlete. And the main reason Blake doesn't whip those moves out often is because the league still doesn't respect the initial move. You can only use all those counters if you can get the defense to bite on the fake. Blake has trouble just getting the ball and attacking too sometimes. Hakeem preaches knowing what move you're going to do, on the catch, Blake always surveys.


The only thing I want to see gone though, which I saw too much of last year and the year before, is Blake thinking he can back his defender down with brute strength when he obviously can't do it. He struggles way more than succeeds when doing this and it makes him too predictable. I mean, our offense as a whole was too predictable and the coaching takes a lot of the blame for that. But Blake's a smart guy, he should be able to realize when something just doesn't work well, especially when in a 1 on 1 situation, and try to put himself into positions where he can be the most dominant. To me, him going to his face up game is doing exactly that. It doesn't allow the defense to send a second defender and Blake can use his explosiveness while he still has it.

U might be right here, the biggest reason I worry is because he was beginning to have some back problems by the end of the year. In Blakes defense, hes developed his post game every year, regardless of its appearance, he is getting better at mixing it up to enhance his all around efficiency down there, including his face ups from the post. He also plays alongside DJ, that can make it hard for him sometimes.


Maybe just going to his face up game exclusively will be enough to allow that to happen, idk. I just thought incorporating more fakes would be the easiest way to do it.

Exclusively?? I suppose thats the direction everyone wants and I guess I can see why, its like the opposite of what people wanted from Bron (to post up) because nobody can stay with Blake when hes aggressive . I just dont know what you mean by face up fakes.

Sadds The Gr8
08-16-2013, 12:42 PM
If he's not the sure shot best PF and top 10 player next year (This shouldn't be that hard to achieve considering the decline of alot of the older PF's like Pau, Dirk, Zbo) then I'll be really disappointed and probably lose hope in him

Clippersfan86
08-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Apet I remember it. But as I said I remember the other games where he crushed Booker and the other Wizard bigs. Booker has Chuvk Hayes exact build so it's more difficult to shove him around. Still though wouldn't label him a Blake stopper on such a tiny sample.

apet8945
08-16-2013, 02:14 PM
At the end of the day, it's Blake's (and DJ's) improvements on defense that are going to take us farther in the playoffs. If they had to work on one over the other, I'd rather it be defense. I'd live with all the awkwardness in Blake's game if it meant him becoming an overall above average defender, possibly elite.

IndiansFan337
08-16-2013, 02:32 PM
I'm thinking he'll be around 18-19 ppg and 10 rpg this year.

His ppg will stay down because they have so many other scoring threats and are a pretty well rounded team. He is capable of averaging 22-23 ppg if they had less offense, but he doesn't need to do that on this squad.

king4day
08-16-2013, 02:54 PM
This has to be his breakout year. He's been great but he needs to separate himself from other top PF's.

TrueFan420
08-16-2013, 04:15 PM
Yup agree'd. I thought being with Chris Paul was going to jump him to the next level. I don't think it will happen this year either.

Unless Chris Paul was gonna teach him some post moves and how to be a better post defender all Paul was gonna do is help him get easier dunks. His numbers will look better but if he can't learn some post moves and d he will get to the next level.

Clippersfan86
08-16-2013, 04:36 PM
I think with Doc using him better something like 21 ppg, 11 rpg, 3.5 apg is very doable and realistic with improved D. This basically puts him at his year 2 numbers which is still very good considering all the talent around him. I have no doubt that he can score 25 pretty much at will when aggressive (he's done it enough) although due to how many scorers we have, he may never hit that average.

FOXHOUND
08-16-2013, 08:07 PM
I'm not the biggest fan of Blake Griffin, but I think he gets a bad rap for the most part. He clearly has a TREMENDOUS work ethic, his game has grown by leaps and bounds each year. These people saying he hasn't added much since his rookie year, or that he still doesn't have a post game or that is hasn't improved from then really need to watch games of his rookie season vs last season.

I think he's a great person, a very hard worker and that he truly wants to win. He likes to have fun, and he doesn't have that classic basketball competitor spirit I guess. He's a lot like Dwight, only he works on his game far more. His post game is already so much better than Dwight's, which is kind of embarrassing for Dwight cause Blake's post game is still raw. You can tell that he really spends a lot of time working on it, he's just still a bit clumsy and erratic.

Considering it was just his third season and how athletically gifted he is it's really remarkable how much he has improved his offensive repertoire. A good amount of athletes on his level have been very content on relying on that athleticism in their early careers. The most notable of recent history I can think of is Amare. Amare was very content just dominating people in the PnR and nailing those jumpers. Last season was literally his first of having any back to the basket game of effectiveness, and that's kind of sad for a player so talented.

Having said that, I think he's just missing that IT factor. There's no excuse for his rebounding to drop a full 2 per/36 in two seasons. His increasing knowledge and experience should be making him a better rebounder, and physically wise he should be the best rebounder on that Clipper team no question. His TRB% has dropped a full 3% from his rookie year, that's inexcusable. To me I think he's just focusing more on offense than that pure hustle stuff, maybe saving more energy for high flying dunks and overall offensive work.

At times he seems more interested in having fun than just doing whatever it takes to win. Not that it's fair to expect everyone to be psychotic about basketball like a Kobe or Garnett, especially since he does work so hard, but he needs to care a little more about winning and a little less about entertainment. He seems to be lacking in the mental toughness area, and Zach Randolph pegged him pretty well in the postseason with the injury comment he made. His TRB% the last two postseason have been 13.4% and 11.9%. To me that's just showing me he's too soft for the postseason, that's a huge drop off from his regular season production on the glass.

What I'm expecting from Blake is more of a mean streak. More willingness to do the dirty work down low again, because he seems to be focusing more on taking jumpers instead. He needs to get back to grabbing double digit rebounds, these excuses for his REB drop off are extremely weak. He needs to be smarter inside about drawing fouls and getting to the FT line more, and on the same topic he needs to get his FT% into the 70's at worst. If he can improve his jumper enough to be hitting turn around fades, deep two's and even a rare three than there's no excuse for that ugly 66%. Maybe he has to change his form at the line, no matter what the case he needs to turn that weakness into a strength.

REB and FT% are the only numbers where I'm really expecting a specific number, those being 10 REB and a .750 FT%. In terms of PPG and APG there's too much relying on what Doc runs, what roles Redick and Dudley play, how open their offense is vs how star dominant, etc. I know he's going to continue to work and improve his scoring skill sets regardless of what his PPG ends up being. I know he's going to continue to improve as a defender, and he's actually become solid there. He won't ever make a big impact on that end, but he's no longer a weak spot IMO.

Chronz
08-16-2013, 10:02 PM
Blakes a better defender... who cares if his rebounding dipped if the payoff is superior team defense. Blake does have his flaws but this idea that his rebounding decline is inexcusable is nonsense imo. The rest I might agree with but Blake IS improving.

Clippersfan86
08-20-2013, 11:22 PM
Just 2 players have tallied at least 4,500 points, 2,000 rebounds, 800 assists on 50+ percent shooting or better in their first 3 seasons. Kareem and Blake Griffin. It's sad that people forget how special the start to this guy's career has been.

Hawkeye15
08-20-2013, 11:28 PM
If Love can ever stay healthy I take him over Blake for sure.

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 07:22 PM
If Love can ever stay healthy I take him over Blake for sure.

Love's a beast and I think they will battle for the top spot for a good decade (have been saying it for 2 years).

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/another-summer-work-griffin

Here's what I think will eventually separate Blake. That Kobe Bryant level work ethic.


“That’s what a superstar is all about,” said Hollins, who re-signed with the Clippers in July and has also been a regular at the team’s facility this offseason. “A superstar, a mega star, that’s what he is. He’s working to get better. He could easily come in and say, ‘I’m good. I was an All-Star last year’ and kind of do his own thing.”

Griffin’s “thing” is an ungodly work ethic. It was obvious when he was a rookie in 2009, running steep hills in beach sand with weight bags strapped to his shoulders. And it hasn’t stopped despite all of the accolades and endorsements, a five-year contract extension and rise to superstardom.

“I had to force myself to take a week off,” Griffin said prior to the start of the 2012-13 season when recounting his summer activities.



Guy is a maniac. He takes pretty much 1-2 weeks off total during summers.

Blitzbolt
08-21-2013, 07:41 PM
Well the clips have a weak front line as a whole and that's what matters especially for big teams like my grizz it give us an advantage.

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 07:47 PM
The biggest problem was a weak coach. Talent is there between Griffin+DJ in spades.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 08:02 PM
Love's a beast and I think they will battle for the top spot for a good decade (have been saying it for 2 years).

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/another-summer-work-griffin

Here's what I think will eventually separate Blake. That Kobe Bryant level work ethic.


“That’s what a superstar is all about,” said Hollins, who re-signed with the Clippers in July and has also been a regular at the team’s facility this offseason. “A superstar, a mega star, that’s what he is. He’s working to get better. He could easily come in and say, ‘I’m good. I was an All-Star last year’ and kind of do his own thing.”

Griffin’s “thing” is an ungodly work ethic. It was obvious when he was a rookie in 2009, running steep hills in beach sand with weight bags strapped to his shoulders. And it hasn’t stopped despite all of the accolades and endorsements, a five-year contract extension and rise to superstardom.

“I had to force myself to take a week off,” Griffin said prior to the start of the 2012-13 season when recounting his summer activities.



Guy is a maniac. He takes pretty much 1-2 weeks off total during summers.

I can counter with Love's level of improvement trumping Blake since entering the league. Well, maybe not trumping, but he is better now than day 1 by a larger gap. Blake's rookie season set his expectations so high, it's not his fault that most people have become hesitant on him to some degree.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:07 PM
I can counter with Love's level of improvement trumping Blake since entering the league. Well, maybe not trumping, but he is better now than day 1 by a larger gap. Blake's rookie season set his expectations so high, it's not his fault that most people have become hesitant on him to some degree.

I think Doc turns Blake into a superstar this year.

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 08:16 PM
I can counter with Love's level of improvement trumping Blake since entering the league. Well, maybe not trumping, but he is better now than day 1 by a larger gap. Blake's rookie season set his expectations so high, it's not his fault that most people have become hesitant on him to some degree.

Not a good comparison. Love came into the league off the bench mostly his first two years getting poorly utilized and when he finally got the opportunity became a star. Had less to do with improving as much as getting a chance to show his game. In college he was a freaking monster so I'm not sure why Minnesota stupidly brought him along.

Griffin's had the opposite thing happen to him. Tons more touches, shots and minutes rookie year and an instant superstar and all star. Then as his career has gone on he's gotten utilized worse and worse and less and less as time goes on. I think Doc/Gentry will reverse that back in the right direction.

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 08:23 PM
Not a good comparison. Love came into the league off the bench mostly his first two years getting poorly utilized and when he finally got the opportunity became a star. Had less to do with improving as much as getting a chance to show his game. In college he was a freaking monster so I'm not sure why Minnesota stupidly brought him along.

Griffin's had the opposite thing happen to him. Tons more touches, shots and minutes rookie year and an instant superstar and all star. Then as his career has gone on he's gotten utilized worse and worse and less and less as time goes on. I think Doc/Gentry will reverse that back in the right direction.

no doubt Minny mishandled him early. But he couldn't shoot a three for his life when he came in, and was essentially a rebound machine who got fouled a lot. He is WELL beyond that now. Best stretch 4 in the game, and a player never seen before in the game (dominant rebounder who wins all star 3 point contests).

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 08:28 PM
no doubt Minny mishandled him early. But he couldn't shoot a three for his life when he came in, and was essentially a rebound machine who got fouled a lot. He is WELL beyond that now. Best stretch 4 in the game, and a player never seen before in the game (dominant rebounder who wins all star 3 point contests).

Oh don't get me wrong. He couldn't shoot the 3 or free throws particularly well early on. He improved noticeably. I just mean the reason for the explosion wasn't an actual big leap in his game as much as it was opportunity, although he's clearly improved. I'm very confident that rookie Love could have put up close to 18/10 or something like that with enough minutes and touches.

He's an amazing, underrated player. I still can't figure out though why he's failed to make a big defensive leap. Blake Griffin 1 year sooner made a pretty huge defensively leap from the year prior. Love hasn't shown any strong desire to improve on that end from what I've seen ( I don't watch him as much as you, feel free to correct me if wrong). I'd also love to see him score at the rim and in the paint more. He has such incredible hands and touch that I don't think it would be hard for him to do so.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 06:27 AM
None.. He sucks. He really hasn't progressed one bit since he came to the league. He also turns to a softy and gets nervous when someone bullies him.

Clippersfan86
11-15-2013, 05:15 PM
Doc increased his minutes like expected and he's up to 22/11/3.5 (similar numbers to rookie year). Shooting 40 percent from midrange (very good), TS% of around 60 percent which would be a career high. He's still learning the kinks of the system so I actually expect the scoring+defense to improve more as the year progresses. If he keeps playing 38-40 minutes a night I think he can end the season at 23 or 24 ppg to go with the 11 boards/3+ assists on good efficiency.

Although 22/11/3.5 is plenty if maintained considering that we have such a deadly group of scorers and Redick+CP3+Crawford can score 20 any given night as well. Keep hitting the jumper, keep improving the D and hitting free throws and he will be amazing.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:19 AM
43/15/7/2. Most importantly he guarded Lebron as well as anybody yet again and even took turns on Bosh and Wade and did a great job. If you can handily outplay Lebron, even for one game it speaks to your upside. Blake is looking like a top 5 player in the next couple years, in a loaded league. Not bad for a guy most gave up on after just 3 years at the age of 24.

Duncan = Donkey
02-06-2014, 03:23 AM
16-34 for a PF. Ugh. Quite the stat line though.

tredigs
02-06-2014, 03:28 AM
Thank God we don't have a K Love thread like this.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:30 AM
Funny thing is those are common shooting numbers for LMA and Love but nobody notices. Goes to show how Blake's efficiency is. Although Blake missed I think 9 FT. Say he makes 5 more like he normaly would. That would be 48 points on 34 shots, not that bad.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:32 AM
Thank God we don't have a K Love thread like this.

No we just have two new ones in the last two weeks about a game he had. If you want a laugh or two read the first few pages in here where people passionately predicted Blake was 100 percent maxed out as a 4th year player at 24 years old. 18-10 lol.

Nevermind multiple threads about Aldridge being MVP worthy recently. Everybody is quick to praise the ones they like and disregard others.

P&GRealist
02-06-2014, 03:33 AM
Funny thing is those are common shooting numbers for LMA and Love but nobody notices. Goes to show how Blake's efficiency is. Although Blake missed I think 9 FT. Say he makes 5 more like he normaly would. That would be 48 points on 34 shots, not that bad.

Blake has improved his free throw percentage up to 70%, but he's a career 63% guy. He's shot just close to his career free throw % tonight. That is still one aspect of his game that he needs to work on as Aldridge and Love have that **** down both shooting 82% from the stripe.

tredigs
02-06-2014, 03:40 AM
Funny thing is those are common shooting numbers for LMA and Love but nobody notices. Goes to show how Blake's efficiency is. Although Blake missed I think 9 FT. Say he makes 5 more like he normaly would. That would be 48 points on 34 shots, not that bad.

The difference is that Love makes up for the added missed field goals with his foul shooting and the fact that 6 of his 18 attempts a night are from 3 point land (where he shoots a solid 38%). His scoring efficiency is higher than Blakes.

And when he put up 43 and 19 a couple days ago it was on 12-22 (2-3 from 3pt) and a crazy 17/18 from the line. His 45/19/6 on the Clips before Xmas was on 15/22 FG. His 42/14 against the Spurs a week earlier was on 15/27 FG (8 of 9 from 3pt). You get the idea, he is far from inefficient, despite the fact that he does not play for your beloved Clippers.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:40 AM
He's been 75 percent since December 1st I think. Remember Love has had 2 extra years, Adridge 3 to work on their games. Nevermind that both have always been more finesse players than Blake. I think he will be 70-75 percent for another year or two before crossing 80.

tredigs
02-06-2014, 03:41 AM
No we just have two new ones in the last two weeks about a game he had. If you want a laugh or two read the first few pages in here where people passionately predicted Blake was 100 percent maxed out as a 4th year player at 24 years old. 18-10 lol.

Nevermind multiple threads about Aldridge being MVP worthy recently. Everybody is quick to praise the ones they like and disregard others.

Those threads came and died, is the point. I doubt we'll see Hawk bumping it next week when Love drops another 40/15/5.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:43 AM
Tre you jumped the gun there. Not once did I call Love inefficient. Merely said a 16-34 shooting night is common for Love and Aldridge but that nobody would even notice (not even peope who don't know the deeper efficiency). Bottom line is Love and Adridge get significantly more respect than Griffin and this thread proves it convincingly.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:45 AM
Why would he bump it? Nobody badmouths Love outside of the occasional empty stats comment. Nobody says love will regress to 18-10 or that by year 3 he was maxed out. Or claimed he only had one skill. If they did show me where.

tredigs
02-06-2014, 03:48 AM
Tre you jumped the gun there. Not once did I call Love inefficient. Merely said a 16-34 shooting night is common for Love and Aldridge but that nobody would even notice (not even peope who don't know the deeper efficiency). Bottom line is Love and Adridge get significantly more respect than Griffin and this thread proves it convincingly.

You're stretching again. The most attempts Love's taken this season is the 15 of 27 against the Spurs where he hit 8 threes.

Aldridge is another matter, I'm not talking about him. And I'd rank them Love>Griffin>>Aldridge. I've always been a fan of BG.

Clippersfan86
02-06-2014, 03:56 AM
Well if 27 is Love's season high in FG attempts I apologize for grouping him in with LMA, it wasn't an insult just an observation on how much more they shoot than Blake. Maybe it's just Aldridge this year and Love in recent years that I'm meshing, not sure. Although I wasn't being literal when I said 16-34 but more implying that they normally shoot a lot for PF's in response to donkey.

If you read the first 5 pages of this thread maybe you'll agree it's worth talking about. This isn't a prediction miss. This is people full on disrespecting and looking like asshats after passionately criticizing.

Heediot
02-06-2014, 04:35 AM
People hate on Blake and that's a straight fact.

sunsfan88
02-06-2014, 05:17 AM
If Love can ever stay healthy I take him over Blake for sure.

I wouldn't. I think Love has a better supporting cast than Blake this year (with CP3 out and all) and Blake's still playing at a great level and actually leading his team to wins way more so than Love has.

The Clippers record without CP3 and just Blake leading the team is pretty impressive.