PDA

View Full Version : ESPN: Dwight Howard's image problem undeserved, SVG defends him.



FOBolous
07-09-2013, 12:59 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9461992/dwight-howard-image-problems-reminiscent-lebron-james


Dwight Howard has an image problem.

An image problem worsened significantly by a move to a new city.

A problem so evident that anyone with a platform to do so is assessing Howard's psyche and offering free advice on how to fix it.

Any of this sound familiar?

It was three years ago right around this time that LeBron James was called everything from a quitter to a loser to a coattail rider to much, much worse, particularly in and around Cleveland.

Apparently, we've learned nothing in the three years since LeBron's experience.

Instead, many of us are doing it again, analyzing a player and his history so that it matches the stained picture we have of him in our minds.

In Howard's case, his choice to leave Los Angeles supposedly confirms he can't handle pressure, either that of an NBA-crazed fan base or of a franchise with a history of championships anchored by big men.

His choice to leave an offense in which he was regularly a third or fourth option verifies that he's uncoachable.

His decision to not pair up with Kobe Bryant again substantiates the idea that he's soft and doesn't have the disposition of a champion.

Never mind that his one season in L.A. was an injury-riddled, mismanaged mess -- one in which he bore the brunt of the blame because, well, many of the other contributors had rings and/or MVP trophies to validate themselves.

Never mind that most knowledgeable basketball fans watched the Lakers and agreed that Howard wasn't utilized properly under Mike D'Antoni.

Never mind that Howard was still recovering from back surgery and had shoulder problems, only to play 80 games (including playoffs) -- two more than Bryant, 27 more than Pau Gasol and 28 more than Steve Nash.

And never mind that, like LeBron, Howard went to a team that has a better championship outlook than his previous team, both in the short term and long term.

This image problem of Howard's isn't a new experience. Just the latest one


the move from an aging Lakers team with a questionable future to a younger Rockets team with promising prospects -- isn't an indictment of Howard's personality, his desire to win or his ability to play championship level basketball.

It was the wise move.

But he's being called a coward anyway.

Shaquille O'Neal predictably said the decision meant Howard couldn't handle the "pressure" that comes with playing in Los Angeles.

Jeff Van Gundy, more accurately, assumed it was the media criticism, which is far more in your face in Los Angeles than it was locally in Orlando -- or will be in Houston -- that scared off Howard.

"This guy's a great basketball player," Jeff Van Gundy said on ESPN's "Mike & Mike" on Monday. "I just don't think winning has been his top priority.

"And I don't think he loves the scrutiny that comes with a little bit more of a media market that's going to look at his flaws and pick at him. I think he's more comfortable in a more friendly media environment."

Well, let's be honest with ourselves. Who "loves" criticism? Who even likes it?

Of course, it must have felt like an anvil fell on Howard's head every time he did something remotely wrong in Los Angeles, because he spent eight seasons in a much more insulated environment.

It probably felt that way for LeBron his first season in Miami, too.

What LeBron had, though, were allies. Within his own organization, LeBron was shielded from the outside nonsense as much as he could be, keeping him from reacting emotionally.

Howard, on the other hand, must've felt like he was being attacked from all angles, even from the inside.

Jabs from Kobe. Barbs from his head coach.

The unity that Howard longed for -- that he was jealous of the Clippers for having -- wasn't there. So Howard's immaturity got the best of him at times, most notably when he walked around the locker room after a loss telling folks to "look at the stat sheet."

Because, in his mind, he was playing through injury and pain. He was doing his part despite adjusting to an awkward role in D'Antoni's scheme.

Yet the criticism outweighed the praise by several tons.

His former coach, Stan Van Gundy, noticed it. Despite their strange breakup in Orlando, Howard and Stan Van Gundy actually have a good relationship now. They chat via text often, even during Howard's free-agency process.

"If you're going to go out and play with injuries, then you're going to subject yourself to criticism," Stan said. "I think that bothered him a lot. The thing that bothered him more than anything is people questioned his toughness and his desire to play.

"He led the league in rebounding. What did he do? The ball just came to him? A lot of it just doesn't add up."

Stan Van Gundy wasn't surprised at Shaq's comments, saying O'Neal is "unnaturally obsessed with Dwight." And he expected any Lakers fan to agree with Shaq.

"That story was written already," Stan said. "If he decided not to come back to L.A., that was going to be the story they wrote. Because for Laker fans, it's tough to admit the other side, which is, somebody could look at their team and see a team that's not going in a positive direction.

"What, exactly, other than the extra $30 million [that the Lakers could have offered over other suitors], would've been the reason to pick L.A. over the other teams?"

As for his brother Jeff's comments, Stan acknowledged the level of criticism is different in Orlando versus L.A. And the assertion that winning hasn't been Howard's top priority? Stan said if it's true, Howard's not alone.

"I hate to be real controversial, but I'm not sure that winning is the top priority for very many of the stars in this league," he said. "I think it's important to all of them, but as opposed to their numbers, their awards, their legacy, their endorsements, all that, I'm not sure winning is the top priority."

Until something makes it the top priority.

For Howard, maybe this is that something. This experience by which it seems no one outside of Houston believes he's championship material and that his legacy will forever be that of an indecisive, fun-loving, coach-killing, no-ring-having big man.

Because now that he's standing in 2010 LeBron's shoes, even Howard has to recognize that the only way to scrub the dirt off his reputation is to win a championship.

Even if it's an unfair requirement.

"If you want to be appreciated at a certain level as a player -- and I don't think this is fair, but it is this way with the fans and the media -- then you have to win a championship," Stan Van Gundy said. "I think that pressure, all of them start to feel it. It's one of the big reasons LeBron decided to team up with [Dwyane] Wade and [Chris] Bosh."

And, much like Rockets coach Kevin McHale, Stan Van Gundy believes a 27-year-old Howard remains plenty capable of carrying a team to a championship level.

"You can limit him offensively, but to do it you have to give up other things, which is something Kevin McHale alluded to, and he was exactly right," Stan said. "When Dwight runs the floor or Dwight pick-and-rolls and shields in the paint, you either have to commit other people to him and give up shots to guys, or he's going to score … and there's nobody comparable on the defensive end of the floor.

"Let's just say, conservatively, at the worst, he's one of the 10 best players in the league."

That's an objective, intelligent assessment.

But right now, too many prefer the emotional evaluation. The one that has Howard facing the league's most significant image problem since July 2010.

- edit -

the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

lakerboy
07-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Championship can solve any image problems, even rape allegations.

But Dwight Howard is no Lebron or Kobe. I seriously doubt their capacity to win a ring. Maybe a few years ago, but the west is so stacked right now.

smiddy012
07-09-2013, 01:05 PM
What a tool...

InYoBicCuddy
07-09-2013, 01:05 PM
:yawn:

BigCityofDreams
07-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Howard, on the other hand, must've felt like he was being attacked from all angles, even from the inside.

Jabs from Kobe. Barbs from his head coach.

To be fair

Was he not throwing jabs at Kobe all yr???

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 01:13 PM
To be fair

Was he not throwing jabs at Kobe all yr???

read the next paragraph.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:14 PM
All I can say about Howard is that he needs to win some titles. Otherwise he'll be looked at as a system player and possibly the most overrated player in NBA history.

Put up or shut up Dwight.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:16 PM
Anybody check the Q-scores? Dwight is now the most hated player in the NBA. Rightfully so.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-07-09/dwight-howard-popularity-lakers-rockets-magic-q-score-lebron-james-kobe-bryant

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:17 PM
Is Dwight immature? Yes, but don't let that skew the real issues at hand.

Lakers are old, have a mediocre coach, and seem to have horrible management, but he should stay because its LA? Makes no sense. He made the smart decision and had he stayed in LA, I just thought it would have been him giving into the pressure of the media.

ThunderousDemon
07-09-2013, 01:17 PM
Two threads on the subject of of defending Dwight by the same poster.

Why so insecure, OP?

nykobe24
07-09-2013, 01:17 PM
Fob is straight sucking his dick! Ok he went to Houston. Good for you guys. Championship caliber team but how many threads you gonna make? Nobody care. Hop off his nuts! I just hope you make threads when he ie complaining in Houston too.

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:19 PM
Anybody check the Q-scores? Dwight is now the most hated player in the NBA. Rightfully so.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-07-09/dwight-howard-popularity-lakers-rockets-magic-q-score-lebron-james-kobe-bryant

By system player, you mean someone who has only experienced success in one system . . . . . . Kobe in the triangle?

ichitownclowni
07-09-2013, 01:21 PM
Stan Van Gundy wasn't surprised at Shaq's comments, saying O'Neal is "unnaturally obsessed with Dwight." And he expected any Lakers fan to agree with Shaq.

This made me LOL

JLynn943
07-09-2013, 01:22 PM
Two threads on the subject of of defending Dwight by the same poster.

Why so insecure, OP?

Why not stay on topic rather than attack the OP?

BigCityofDreams
07-09-2013, 01:23 PM
Anybody check the Q-scores? Dwight is now the most hated player in the NBA. Rightfully so.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-07-09/dwight-howard-popularity-lakers-rockets-magic-q-score-lebron-james-kobe-bryant

He shouldn't be the most hated tbh. I don't like what he has done over the past couple of yrs but I'm surprised he would be the most hated.

JLynn943
07-09-2013, 01:23 PM
This made me LOL

I missed that part. and yeah, it's unhealthy lol

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:24 PM
By system player, you mean someone who has only experienced success in one system . . . . . . Kobe in the triangle?

Haha, Kobe played most of his career in the triangle. But if you knew anything about Laker basketball and the Triangle offense, Kobe often broke out of the Triangle to score his points. Phil Jackson has even stated this.

What about last year? No Triangle and Kobe had his best season in years. Clearly our best player last year, not Dwight.

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 01:24 PM
the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:26 PM
Big difference between LeBron and Dwight is that LeBron is and was the best player in the game before he came to Miami and after.

Don't see any MVP's in D12's trophy case.

Dwight Howard is not nearly as good as LeBron James. Not even close.

Now if he wins a title or two, he can be absolved. But he has to win, nothing else matters at this point.

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:27 PM
Haha, Kobe played most of his career in the triangle. But if you knew anything about Laker basketball and the Triangle offense, Kobe often broke out of the Triangle to score his points. Phil Jackson has even stated this.

What about last year? No Triangle and Kobe had his best season in years. Clearly our best player last year, not Dwight.

One coach for all of his rings = System player.

By your definition success is only defined by rings? Lakers were a bottom seed in the west all year. No?

BigCityofDreams
07-09-2013, 01:29 PM
read the next paragraph.

I understand that but everything can't be explained away by him being immature and it getting the best of him. The Kobe and Dwight relationship started off rough with Kobe allegedly wanting him to be Tyson Chandler so why would he add fuel to the fire by talking behind his back. Doing it in the Laker locker room is bad enough but if it's true he did it at the AS game that just shows he didn't care who sees or hears it.

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 01:29 PM
Big difference between LeBron and Dwight is that LeBron is and was the best player in the game before he came to Miami and after.

Don't see any MVP's in D12's trophy case.

Dwight Howard is not nearly as good as LeBron James. Not even close.

Now if he wins a title or two, he can be absolved. But he has to win, nothing else matters at this point.

only 1% of the players that ever play in the win a MVP. That's why it's such a celebrated award. probably less. that being said...he has won many accolades such as:

- 7 NBA All-Star (2007–2013)
- 3 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2009–2011)
- 5 NBA rebounding leader (2008–2010, 2012–2013)
- 2 NBA blocks leader (2009–2010)
- 5 All-NBA First Team (2008–2012)
- 2 All-NBA Third Team (2007, 2013)
- 4 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2012)
- NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008)
- NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (2008)
- NBA All-Rookie First Team (2005)
- Naismith Prep Player of the Year (2004)

ThunderousDemon
07-09-2013, 01:30 PM
Why not stay on topic rather than attack the OP?

:laugh2:

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:33 PM
One coach for all of his rings = System player.

By your definition success is only defined by rings? Lakers were a bottom seed in the west all year. No?

That's silly, and even you know it. MJ, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, etc. are all system players then? Dwight needs shooters around him to be productive offensively. You can't throw the ball into the post and expect him to give you 25 a game.

BigCityofDreams
07-09-2013, 01:35 PM
the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

Understood but why make the comment that if it was 2-3 yrs ago or 2-3 yrs from now it would have been the right time in LA. That was a quote from Howard in an article a day after he signed with the Rockets. If two yrs would have been ok then he spends one yr on this current Laker team, Pau gets traded, D'antoni gets fired at some point during the season, and they either hire Phil or someone else. Then they max out two players in 14.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:35 PM
only 1% of the players that ever play in the win a MVP. That's why it's such a celebrated award. probably less. that being said...he has won many accolades such as:

- 7 NBA All-Star (2007–2013)
- 3 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2009–2011)
- 5 NBA rebounding leader (2008–2010, 2012–2013)
- 2 NBA blocks leader (2009–2010)
- 5 All-NBA First Team (2008–2012)
- 2 All-NBA Third Team (2007, 2013)
- 4 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2012)
- NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008)
- NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (2008)
- NBA All-Rookie First Team (2005)
- Naismith Prep Player of the Year (2004)


Sweet. He needs to win though. Dude hasn't been outta round 1 in 3 years

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:36 PM
That's silly, and even you know it. MJ, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, etc. are all system players then? Dwight needs shooters around him to be productive offensively. You can't throw the ball into the post and expect him to give you 25 a game.

What is silly is throwing out a past players accomplishments and saying he needs a ring to prove he isn't a "System player." You know that isn't true, just like I know it isn't true that Kobe was a system player.

He isn't the most skilled post player, but defensively he is one of the best big men to ever play the game.

The1ronHorse
07-09-2013, 01:40 PM
Haha, Kobe played most of his career in the triangle. But if you knew anything about Laker basketball and the Triangle offense, Kobe often broke out of the Triangle to score his points. Phil Jackson has even stated this.

What about last year? No Triangle and Kobe had his best season in years. Clearly our best player last year, not Dwight.

One coach for all of his rings = System player.

By your definition success is only defined by rings? Lakers were a bottom seed in the west all year. No?


System player is a term to describe the effectiveness of a player in a particular system, not the overall talent or success of the team that he's surrounded with.

To proclaim Kobe merely a system player is a slap against your username. (Knowledge)

System players are people like Danny Green, Earl Clark etc.

If you are putting Kobe in a category with them you are blinded by bias and hate.

Kobe's fadeaways, finishes at the rim, post moves, unparalleled foot work, instincts, and playmaking abilities are in no way a form of system.

LeBron, Kobe and Durant, to name the top, would be successful in any system.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:40 PM
What is silly is throwing out a past players accomplishments and saying he needs a ring to prove he isn't a "System player." You know that isn't true, just like I know it isn't true that Kobe was a system player.

He isn't the most skilled post player, but defensively he is one of the best big men to ever play the game.

He will never be considered a top 20 player in the NBA if he doesn't win a title. That's just how it works. Fair or unfair, he has 0 excuses now not to excel offensively and defensively, while on a talented roster that fits him.

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:43 PM
He will never be considered a top 20 player in the NBA if he doesn't win a title. That's just how it works. Fair or unfair, he has 0 excuses now not to excel offensively and defensively, while on a talented roster that fits him.

When healthy he is arguably (I would say he is) top 5 and definitely top 10. Rings are the by product of the team around you, not an individual's skill.

Bruno
07-09-2013, 01:44 PM
his image problem is completely deserved. he's weak-minded and indecisive; those aren't the character trains of players who are usually admired in the NBA. he's quit on two teams in just as many years and he's completely distracted himself and the fans from his play on the court. he's made a career out of making the easy less rewarding decisions in the name of instant gratification. he's a winner, but not a champion. its a mindset and he doesn't have it.

he will continue to get bashed until he wins, period. and rightfully so.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Kareem-Dwight-Howard-doesn-t-get-it-4549358.php


"I had a real good meeting with (Howard) when he first came to L.A.," Abdul-Jabbar said. "He was like, 'Yeah' (indicating a willingness to be coached). That was the last time I spoke with him. ... He's charming, he's charismatic, very nice young man. Maturity-wise, he doesn't get it." -KAJ

What if Howard had a sky hook?

"At least he'd have an offensive move. He gets the ball on offense, oh my God, he doesn't know what to do. It's usually a turnover, people come and take the ball from him or tie his arms up. Offensively, he doesn't get it. Hasn't made any progress. We (the Lakers, when Abdul-Jabbar was a special assistant coach) played them in '09, and when I saw him this past season, he was the same player."


The scary thing about the rockets is that they actually have the shooters to make Howard less of a liability. he went to a team that covered his own weaknesses, rather than working on eliminating those weaknesses from his game. people don't respect whats easy. the respect the hard journey of self improvement and sacrifice.

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:45 PM
System player is a term to describe the effectiveness of a player in a particular system, not the overall talent or success of the team that he's surrounded with.

To proclaim Kobe merely a system player is a slap against your username. (Knowledge)

System players are people like Danny Green, Earl Clark etc.

If you are putting Kobe in a category with them you are blinded by bias and hate.

Kobe's fadeaways, finishes at the rim, post moves, unparalleled foot work, instincts, and playmaking abilities are in no way a form of system.

LeBron, Kobe and Durant, to name the top, would be successful in any system.

You missed the point, I was being sarcastic.

shep33
07-09-2013, 01:46 PM
When healthy is arguably (I would say he is) top 5 and definitely top 10. Rings are the bu product of the team around you, not an individual's skill.

He's been jumping ship for the last 3 years to get to this point. All-star shooting guard on his team, great SF in Parsons, shooters around him, a P&R point guard in Lin...

Harden I believe was #1 in P&R situations last year.

Dwight has a perfect team around him for his talents. He needs to win, or at least contend as a leader of that squad.

Knowledge
07-09-2013, 01:52 PM
He's been jumping ship for the last 3 years to get to this point. All-star shooting guard on his team, great SF in Parsons, shooters around him, a P&R point guard in Lin...

Harden I believe was #1 in P&R situations last year.

Dwight has a perfect team around him for his talents. He needs to win, or at least contend as a leader of that squad.

The Lakers traded for him, he didn't sign there. He had to be convinced to even give them a try. If a team trades for a player in the last year of his deal and he decided to leave after the season, that is their right.

The Rockets will be a very good team, but I'm not putting them over SA or OKC until I see them. They still have a lot of really young players, including Harden.

C_Mund
07-09-2013, 01:59 PM
This guy earned his reputation because he was indecisive and seemed to let local media influence his decisions (ie: picking up his option in Orlando when it was pretty clear he didn't want to....) so I think this is a big boy decision for him. He never asked for the Lakers, he was traded. Now that he CHOSE to be a Rocket, he has no excuse. This is the first time he's decided which team he'll play on, so he better make the most of it.

Dude's a clown, but I'm giving him a year to make up for it

BigCityofDreams
07-09-2013, 02:02 PM
He will never be considered a top 20 player in the NBA if he doesn't win a title. That's just how it works. Fair or unfair, he has 0 excuses now not to excel offensively and defensively, while on a talented roster that fits him.

I agree with Shep on this. He has to win a couple of rings in HOU. He got the situation and team he wanted. He wants to be a champion well then go get it.

Chronz
07-09-2013, 02:20 PM
the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

:facepalm:


I've been on Rox fans side with regards to Dwight vs LA but you would be remiss to assume that LeBrons situation was any worse than the 3 year drama that was the Dwightmare. Bron left a contender? Im pretty sure the only reason they were a contender was because of him, Id argue that both of Dwights former teams were superior talent wise than the team Bron carried in Cleveland, its just that Dwight is not as good as Bron so they dont appear to be contenders.



Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.
Dwight brought all of this on himself with his indecision in Orlando. He could have been where he wanted all along, in Brooklyn, but he let greed get the better of him. Did Dwight even take a paycut going to Houston or did he sign for the max?

The other thing is, its the Lakers, you really think they rebuild the way the rest of us do? Seems pretty hard to doubt that team but Im hoping your right. It would be very humbling for them to struggle for the next decade.

ManRam
07-09-2013, 02:24 PM
He deserves criticism for a lot of things, but there's no doubt it has been blown way out of proportion and people are eager to character-assassinate him. People forget how great he was, how competitive he was and how he was a winner.


Dwight brought it upon him in Orlando...and that's why he's getting all this flack...but this off-season? Nah, nothing wrong with what he did. The whole "he's not good enough for LA" thing seems off to me...especially those who can't properly put the whole situation into context.

Many molehills have been turned into mountains.


I hate the guy, but I certainly have the ability to be rational.

ManRam
07-09-2013, 02:26 PM
Big difference between LeBron and Dwight is that LeBron is and was the best player in the game before he came to Miami and after.

Don't see any MVP's in D12's trophy case.

Dwight Howard is not nearly as good as LeBron James. Not even close.

Now if he wins a title or two, he can be absolved. But he has to win, nothing else matters at this point.

Dwight was arguably the second best player in the NBA when he was with Orlando :shrug: No MVPs, sure. That lone fact shouldn't mean we flat out treat them differently.

Chronz
07-09-2013, 02:27 PM
Understood but why make the comment that if it was 2-3 yrs ago or 2-3 yrs from now it would have been the right time in LA. That was a quote from Howard in an article a day after he signed with the Rockets. If two yrs would have been ok then he spends one yr on this current Laker team, Pau gets traded, D'antoni gets fired at some point during the season, and they either hire Phil or someone else. Then they max out two players in 14.

Because its still 2 years away. Hed rather have what he wants NOW.

Avenged
07-09-2013, 02:32 PM
3 teams already of someone of his caliber...

SteBO
07-09-2013, 02:34 PM
Big difference between LeBron and Dwight is that LeBron is and was the best player in the game before he came to Miami and after.

Don't see any MVP's in D12's trophy case.

Dwight Howard is not nearly as good as LeBron James. Not even close.

Now if he wins a title or two, he can be absolved. But he has to win, nothing else matters at this point.

Dwight was arguably the second best player in the NBA when he was with Orlando :shrug: No MVPs, sure. That lone fact shouldn't mean we flat out treat them differently.
Yeah remember when Dwight led Orlando to the Finals in 2009? I do.....

ldawg
07-09-2013, 02:34 PM
Leaving a team like Lakers will have back lash no matter what. Howard Image took a hit way before he got to La however and leaving a team like LA that has fans in 50 states and outside the US does not help. He will be Like in China so his image will be good there. Howard has not been a franchise player for 3 years thats no one fault but his own. Thats three years he wasted that he cant get back. CP3 and him was in the Same boat yet two different out come. Howard is now closer to 30 so i think as a player what you see is what you got. Howard as a great rebounder and shot blocker but on the other end he is limited. He get good numbers off broken plays.

ztilzer31
07-09-2013, 02:36 PM
Lebron left as a free agent. Nothing wrong with that... Dwight same thing in LA. Nothing wrong with that...

It's what happened in Orlando that's bad. Way worse than anything LBJ has done.

ManRam
07-09-2013, 02:37 PM
Yeah remember when Dwight led Orlando to the Finals in 2009? I do.....

seems like everyone's caught amnesia :shrug:

mjm07
07-09-2013, 02:39 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9461992/dwight-howard-image-problems-reminiscent-lebron-james





- edit -

the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

GTFOH with that nonsense.

Has Cleveland continued to be a champion caliber team when LBJ left?!! I'll wait....

Weren't the Lakers the favorite to come out West with 4 HOF's. Lot of Lakers fans were chanting championship before palying one game. But NOW( and I can't emphasize this enough)NOW the Lakers are rebuilding b/c their franchise player is out for a yr, and their 2nd best player couldn't wait to leave LAL and joined the Rockets. After next season the LAL will be rebuilding but its the Lakers we're talking about. They don't rebuild. They reload. They should still be a decent team next yr with Nash, Gasol, Kaman and whenever Kobe comes back. (IF ALL ARE HEALTHY of course )

Lakers will be a championship contender soon enough.

Regarding the ESPN article...i'm happy to see SVG being the better man and defending D12. He doesn't have to after all the **** dwight pulled in Orl. Howard/Harden will be a nice tandem not to mention Parsons. He didn't like LA and him leaving will hurt their prestigous image...a bit at the very least.

ldawg
07-09-2013, 02:41 PM
The thing with him leaving LA goes to ways. When things are not going good Howard is not the type of player you will need to dig out the hole he will bail. On the other Hand why would he need to dig out the hole its not his problem. This team is out already out the hole i can role with them see ya suckers. I think he made the right choice but in the same breath it highlight how weak he is. Its like a no win situation and i think he did the right thing. Now what would be crazy if Lakers or Orlando wins a title before him.

ManRam
07-09-2013, 02:42 PM
Lebron left as a free agent. Nothing wrong with that... Dwight same thing in LA. Nothing wrong with that...

It's what happened in Orlando that's bad. Way worse than anything LBJ has done.

Easily.

And I don't think him leaving LA and a franchise with all these crazy adjectives thrown around it makes him any lesser of a person or competitor than other stars to leave in FA. The Lakers as currently constructed weren't the Lakers their fans look at the franchise as. He left a team that did not resemble The 17 Time World Champion Lakers.

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 02:54 PM
:facepalm:


I've been on Rox fans side with regards to Dwight vs LA but you would be remiss to assume that LeBrons situation was any worse than the 3 year drama that was the Dwightmare. Bron left a contender? Im pretty sure the only reason they were a contender was because of him, Id argue that both of Dwights former teams were superior talent wise than the team Bron carried in Cleveland, its just that Dwight is not as good as Bron so they dont appear to be contenders.



Dwight brought all of this on himself with his indecision in Orlando. He could have been where he wanted all along, in Brooklyn, but he let greed get the better of him. Did Dwight even take a paycut going to Houston or did he sign for the max?

The other thing is, its the Lakers, you really think they rebuild the way the rest of us do? Seems pretty hard to doubt that team but Im hoping your right. It would be very humbling for them to struggle for the next decade.

Howard signed for the max but, in the process, he gave up the $30 additional million dollars that he could've gotten if he stayed with the Lakers.

and i'm not one of those people think the Lakers are going to mire in mediocrity for the next decade...i think they'll be done rebuilding probably 3 years max....4 years would be absolutely pushing it. but Dwight's 27, 3 or 4 more years later, he will on the downward slope of his prime. he'll waste he peak on a rebuilding team.

and to be fair, Lebron's Cleveland team was pretty solid. They did a good job surrounding him with shooters like Orlando did for Dwight. the team Lebron left behind had a career 40% 3 pts specialist, Jamison who was still a 17ppg and a great stretch 4, shaq (while old, was still better than 99% of the Cs in the league and was a good defensive presence in the paint), and Mo Williams who's a career 38% from the 3. They had big Z, solid back up at the C who averaged close to a 10/10 for his career, and Varejao, a great energy guy, off the bench.


Lebron left as a free agent. Nothing wrong with that... Dwight same thing in LA. Nothing wrong with that...

It's what happened in Orlando that's bad. Way worse than anything LBJ has done.

but yea, what dwight did in Orlando is 9999999X worse than what he did to LA. I would understand if Orlando fans are butthurt. LA fans? not so much. Dwight did what ALL other stars in the history of the NBA have done which is leave a rebuilding team to a team that gives him a better chance of winning.

ldawg
07-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Lakers are old but so are the Spurs that came from the finals. What young team has rings? dont say Miami because they are not. When Duncan led Spurs Diavid was about to retire went on and won more. Lakers were tweaks away not as bad as one think. Howard made the right choice however Houston is the better fit for many other reasons. Howard is like a tree with no roots when it rains he will always tip over so you have to brace him.

bucketss
07-09-2013, 03:00 PM
yeah its messed up to leave mo williams and ilgauskas.

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 07:33 PM
yeah its messed up to leave mo williams and ilgauskas.

no it's messed up leaving a team that would've still be contending if he hasn't left. a team that improves through the FA every summer. a team who's FO work closely with him every summer to make sure he gets the teammate that he wants.

that's considerably more mess up then Howard leaving team he didn't choose to go to after one year because that team isn't good enough to contend and won't be good enough for another 3 years. again, what Howard did was what many other stars did through NBA history.

ldawg
07-09-2013, 11:19 PM
no it's messed up leaving a team that would've still be contending if he hasn't left. a team that improves through the FA every summer. a team who's FO work closely with him every summer to make sure he gets the teammate that he wants.

that's considerably more mess up then Howard leaving team he didn't choose to go to after one year because that team isn't good enough to contend and won't be good enough for another 3 years. again, what Howard did was what many other stars did through NBA history.except Duncan and Kobe two future HOF and the two most winning guys that still suit up. 9 rings among the two.

FOBolous
07-09-2013, 11:22 PM
except Duncan and Kobe two future HOF and the two most winning guys that still suit up. 9 rings among the two.

except Kobe. I give you that. Had SAS ever been mediocre with Duncan? I don't recall.

ldawg
07-09-2013, 11:30 PM
except Kobe. I give you that. Had SAS ever been mediocre with Duncan? I don't recall.yep Spurs had all kind of players that would not have been in the nba if it was not for them. Hell they won with Horry who played for years on fumes after La let him go

kblo247
07-09-2013, 11:33 PM
Stan kinda hit the final nail to shatter that image when he outed him as wanting him to be fired before reporters and then left him there

OceanSpray
07-09-2013, 11:37 PM
Dwight wasn't even 100%, led the league in rebounding, and was forced to play with a system that he didn't fit comfortably with.. Yet it's his fault? I don't think Howard can win a ring with Houston, but you'd be a fool to turn down playing with Houston over the current LAL status.

shep33
07-09-2013, 11:44 PM
Dwight wasn't even 100%, led the league in rebounding, and was forced to play with a system that he didn't fit comfortably with.. Yet it's his fault? I don't think Howard can win a ring with Houston, but you'd be a fool to turn down playing with Houston over the current LAL status.

See I have no problem that he went to Houston, I expected him to leave. I have a problem with him quitting and not giving 100% because he didn't even give LA a chance

ldawg
07-09-2013, 11:45 PM
Wade won Miami its first title with an older Shaq, Alanzo morning, payton, Antwan walker, jason Williams. Hell Miami present team core is not to old but most of the other guys can get free coffee from mcdonalds. Celtics KG, Ray, Paul were old, Mavs Dirk, Terry, Marion old. I mean what young team won rings?

kblo247
07-09-2013, 11:45 PM
seems like everyone's caught amnesia :shrug:

Remember the one moment that defined that series in a nutshell? Kobe and Dwight both go for a rebound, Kobe throws elbows at him and is fighting for a ring, and Dwight is trying to be his friend and calm him down in the finals. Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith ate that up at the time and ran with it, one guy has IT and the other wasnt ready and wasnt enough of a leader to want IT.

That's basically been the whole stance since he left. I don't blame him for leaving. I always figure it was 40/60 he stayed. And if he stayed it was for the money and extra year. He didnt want to come to la. He didnt come to win in LA. Kobe won games in spite of him and made him look bad on the court in terms of how hard they both played last year, and it was new for Dwight not to be the focus or the star and best guy on his team, let alone old Kobe to carry him because he wasnt willing to give up the post to Pau or play pick and roll with Nash.

That said, I keep coming back to I'm not really sure, I'm truly not that they wanted him to stay. If they wanted him to stay truly, they would have pressed him for it. They tested his worthy to speak to see if he would stick around with the billboards. But if you want him to stay Jeanie Buss and Phil show up in the meeting over going on vacation, Dantoni speaks to him, Kobe doesn't call him on the bs of talking behind his back, Nash doesn't out his not wanting to be there on espn radio, Metta doesn't tweet chemistry just went up after he left, and the legends don't do what they are doing. Well Shaq is Shaq but Magic said this city and team werent something he could handle after the Spirs eliminated him, Fox said he wasn't laker material, Horry said he was mailing it in, Worthy kept screaming trade him, and Kareem outed him on twitter saying all the talk of learning from a big is a lie as Dwight said he would seek his help and then never contacted him again and if he learned even a hook shot that's 1 more move than he's got.

It was just a bad relationship. Phil as coach may have smoothed things. Ideally it would, but realistically Phil would have called him soft in the media if he chose not to play when he was cleared to. Phil would have joked about his fts. Phil would have incorporated him, but there would be nights where Phil took shots thru the media like he did at Kobe, Pau, Shaq, Lamar, Pip, Horace,etc. I just don't think the lakers were at a stage last year to put up with teaching him how to grow up nor was he at a stage where he was ready to just get fun out of winning and not simply enjoy life in a less stressful place. Houston should be a blessing for him in some ways, an insulated bubble, but he still somehow managed to make Melo and Bron look good pr wise.


There were so many different chefs in the kitchen. Dantoni wanted this, Pau wanted that, Nash wanted this, Metta's in the corner being Metta, Jeanie and Jim want this, Dwight is used to being the fun guy who people loved on the court just because and who gets to smile and joke, and Kobe's the mofo with the scowl who is all business and only enjoys winning nothing less. They just werent meant to be in the same space last year none of them, and ultimately it goes on Dwight because he's the guy who opted in. But hey I do thank him for us not having to choose whether to max Bynum our or not after a year off

Orlando won the ****ing trade out the 4 teams

ldawg
07-09-2013, 11:46 PM
See I have no problem that he went to Houston, I expected him to leave. I have a problem with him quitting and not giving 100% because he didn't even give LA a chanceWhat do you expect from a prime Madonna?

I Rock Shaqs
07-09-2013, 11:47 PM
Anybody check the Q-scores? Dwight is now the most hated player in the NBA. Rightfully so.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-07-09/dwight-howard-popularity-lakers-rockets-magic-q-score-lebron-james-kobe-bryant

I wonder which fans are the most hated...

OceanSpray
07-09-2013, 11:48 PM
See I have no problem that he went to Houston, I expected him to leave. I have a problem with him quitting and not giving 100% because he didn't even give LA a chance

What chances are you referring to? Sign with LAL and deal with the same garbage again? He publicly stated that he didn't like the system, yet nothing was done. Don't hate on Howard, hate on the management that made silly decisions. I don't know what chances you are exactly referring to because LAL were never going to beat SAS anyways and that only leads to you believing Howard should've resigned with LAL so he can give LAL another chance. Howard doesn't owe anyone anything, btw.

ldawg
07-09-2013, 11:53 PM
What chances are you referring to? Sign with LAL and deal with the same garbage again? He publicly stated that he didn't like the system, yet nothing was done. Don't hate on Howard, hate on the management that made silly decisions. I don't know what chances you are exactly referring to because LAL were never going to beat SAS anyways and that only leads to you believing Howard should've resigned with LAL so he can give LAL another chance. Howard doesn't owe anyone anything, btw.Well he went where he fits what is the big deal?

Chronz
07-10-2013, 02:41 AM
Howard signed for the max but, in the process, he gave up the $30 additional million dollars that he could've gotten if he stayed with the Lakers.
Its not really an additional 30M, its another year of service he would have to give the contract. And when you consider tax cost, the difference in annual salary dwindles even more.


and i'm not one of those people think the Lakers are going to mire in mediocrity for the next decade...i think they'll be done rebuilding probably 3 years max....4 years would be absolutely pushing it. but Dwight's 27, 3 or 4 more years later, he will on the downward slope of his prime. he'll waste he peak on a rebuilding team.

That would be sweet. I cant see Kobe toiling away on a bad Lakers team tho, not with cap space to spend like mad. Either way, I wouldn't blame Dwight for not even wanting to wait a single year, its his choice.



and to be fair, Lebron's Cleveland team was pretty solid.
Solid does not equate contender. That "solid" team was rudderless without him, no true contender should rely on 1 player as much as those Cavs relied on him. If he would have won a title with that squad, it would have set the unprecedented IMO. Thats usually not a sign of a good team.


They did a good job surrounding him with shooters like Orlando did for Dwight. the team Lebron left behind had a career 40% 3 pts specialist, Jamison who was still a 17ppg and a great stretch 4, shaq (while old, was still better than 99% of the Cs in the league and was a good defensive presence in the paint), and Mo Williams who's a career 38% from the 3. They had big Z, solid back up at the C who averaged close to a 10/10 for his career, and Varejao, a great energy guy, off the bench.
I know the stats, you're glossing over a great deal of them and I dont really want to play that game right now. There is nothing remotely impressive about that bunch and their production. His 2nd best player wasn't even a legitimate All-Star for **** sake. You know its bad when the coaches dont select a 2nd All-Star from the team with the best record. Remember back when Wally Szerbiak was an All-star by virtue of being KG's teammate, Mo is ******** than Wally. At least Dwight had an All-NBA 1st teamer by his side in Kobe and Mr Max Money Rashard Lewis in Orlando.

sunsfan88
07-10-2013, 05:34 AM
Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

The Cavs were as much a title contender as the worst team in basketball that year would have been a contender with LBJ.

Only reason Cleveland was even a winning team was cause of LeBron. He had to do everything on his own.

Dwight had help in Kobe, Nash, Gasol and yet still fleed.

And the Lakers still had Kobe, Nash and Gasol. If Dwight had returned to LAL, there would have been no way that LAL would be rebuilding.

What Dwight did is MUCH worse than LeBron did. Only thing that LeBron did worse is THE DECISION.

ldawg
07-10-2013, 07:01 AM
Howard did This To himself. Just ask any teammate of his for the last three years. You can even ask any coach or assistant coach except Stan who is not keeping it real and trying to aid the wounded. Dantoni could of cared less. Howard has not been a franchise player in a little over three years. Non of his teammate respected him. He will have luck with younger guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08gvGpGCwA

JiffyMix88
07-10-2013, 08:33 AM
Anybody check the Q-scores? Dwight is now the most hated player in the NBA. Rightfully so.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-07-09/dwight-howard-popularity-lakers-rockets-magic-q-score-lebron-james-kobe-bryant

I don't hate Dwight I think that's just Laker and few Magic fans that do. I think he made the best decision in leaving that hell hole with a man who raped another woman running the franchise especially.

SteBO
07-10-2013, 08:48 AM
See I have no problem that he went to Houston, I expected him to leave. I have a problem with him quitting and not giving 100% because he didn't even give LA a chance
Was he not coming off back surgery? And to make matters worse, didn't he come back months earlier than expected to try and acclimate himself with the Lakers? I'm no Dwight fan, but I think the effort questioning has gotten over the top now. Only until after he leaves the Lakers does Nash start delving into the conversation and that's where my biggest problem lies. I was especially disappointed in Kareem's comments, where it all just comes off as sour grapes and a sense of entitlement.

Plus it's not like Dwight wanted the Lakers in the first place.

WhiteSoxGod
07-10-2013, 09:09 AM
Was he not coming off back surgery? And to make matters worse, didn't he come back months earlier than expected to try and acclimate himself with the Lakers? I'm no Dwight fan, but I think the effort questioning has gotten over the top now. Only until after he leaves the Lakers does Nash start delving into the conversation and that's where my biggest problem lies. I was especially disappointed in Kareem's comments, where it all just comes off as sour grapes and a sense of entitlement.

Plus it's not like Dwight wanted the Lakers in the first place.

Lakers fans feel entitled. Sadly, it's not all their faults. Lakers are used to winning and always contending because they never had a CBA that restricted their owner or their ability to make moves. Now the Lakers are facing the prospect of actual rebuilding and it seems Lakers fans' don't know what to do. Add in the fact they rarely lose out on a free agent they want, especially when they can offer more money. So when Dwight left it put Lakers fans in a state of shock. I understand a little but geez they just need to get over and move on, being all butt-hurt about it will not fix anything. Don't hate the Rockets because they positioned themselves for this intentionally 2 years ago.

ManRam
07-10-2013, 09:26 AM
Remember the one moment that defined that series in a nutshell? Kobe and Dwight both go for a rebound, Kobe throws elbows at him and is fighting for a ring, and Dwight is trying to be his friend and calm him down in the finals. Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith ate that up at the time and ran with it, one guy has IT and the other wasnt ready and wasnt enough of a leader to want IT.

That's basically been the whole stance since he left. I don't blame him for leaving. I always figure it was 40/60 he stayed. And if he stayed it was for the money and extra year. He didnt want to come to la. He didnt come to win in LA. Kobe won games in spite of him and made him look bad on the court in terms of how hard they both played last year, and it was new for Dwight not to be the focus or the star and best guy on his team, let alone old Kobe to carry him because he wasnt willing to give up the post to Pau or play pick and roll with Nash.

That said, I keep coming back to I'm not really sure, I'm truly not that they wanted him to stay. If they wanted him to stay truly, they would have pressed him for it. They tested his worthy to speak to see if he would stick around with the billboards. But if you want him to stay Jeanie Buss and Phil show up in the meeting over going on vacation, Dantoni speaks to him, Kobe doesn't call him on the bs of talking behind his back, Nash doesn't out his not wanting to be there on espn radio, Metta doesn't tweet chemistry just went up after he left, and the legends don't do what they are doing. Well Shaq is Shaq but Magic said this city and team werent something he could handle after the Spirs eliminated him, Fox said he wasn't laker material, Horry said he was mailing it in, Worthy kept screaming trade him, and Kareem outed him on twitter saying all the talk of learning from a big is a lie as Dwight said he would seek his help and then never contacted him again and if he learned even a hook shot that's 1 more move than he's got.

It was just a bad relationship. Phil as coach may have smoothed things. Ideally it would, but realistically Phil would have called him soft in the media if he chose not to play when he was cleared to. Phil would have joked about his fts. Phil would have incorporated him, but there would be nights where Phil took shots thru the media like he did at Kobe, Pau, Shaq, Lamar, Pip, Horace,etc. I just don't think the lakers were at a stage last year to put up with teaching him how to grow up nor was he at a stage where he was ready to just get fun out of winning and not simply enjoy life in a less stressful place. Houston should be a blessing for him in some ways, an insulated bubble, but he still somehow managed to make Melo and Bron look good pr wise.


There were so many different chefs in the kitchen. Dantoni wanted this, Pau wanted that, Nash wanted this, Metta's in the corner being Metta, Jeanie and Jim want this, Dwight is used to being the fun guy who people loved on the court just because and who gets to smile and joke, and Kobe's the mofo with the scowl who is all business and only enjoys winning nothing less. They just werent meant to be in the same space last year none of them, and ultimately it goes on Dwight because he's the guy who opted in. But hey I do thank him for us not having to choose whether to max Bynum our or not after a year off

Orlando won the ****ing trade out the 4 teams

The problem with everything here is that you think that unless you are like Kobe then you don't have "it". Everything pertaining to that notion after that early comment is therefore inherently flawed.

Dwight has shown that he has "it". He might not have the same "it" that Kobe has, but he has "it". He's immature at times and occasionally it's costly (let's not act like Kobe's "it" hasn't cost his team tremendously at times). But if you remove last year and the debacle that was LAL, and you focus on what he did when he was happy in Orlando, and you have a tremendous player who was one of the 3 or so best building blocks in the league. Flawed? Yes. Immensely flawed at times? Yes. But besides LeBron no one else really can say they aren't. If you handle and coach him correctly (like SVG) you can win without much around him. Never could even say that with Kobe.

Yankees22
07-10-2013, 09:57 AM
This article is spot on. Phenomenal job

3RDASYSTEM
07-10-2013, 10:07 AM
All I can say about Howard is that he needs to win some titles. Otherwise he'll be looked at as a system player and possibly the most overrated player in NBA history.

Put up or shut up Dwight.

Man you la fans are quite the comedians

a straight out of HS player can be considered possibly the most overrated player in history?

i could have sworn that player plays for your beloved franchise, you know the same HS player that came straight into the nba as E.JONES backup for yrs but somehow he is magically a top 10 and even to some laker fans top 5, which is the furthest from the truth, top 50 i guess

now that's the most overrated player of alltime, no doubt about it

then HOWARD is a distant 2nd, if you choose to have it that way

now had HOWARD entered the league as a backup to CATO for yrs then i would possibly agree, but he was the franchise day1 player, he was that good so no need to backup inferior players

HOWARD may not have the ring, but you cant deny his impact in ORL and his 3 DPOY trophies and mvp runner ups and snubs and leading the lead like 4-5x in 9 yrs rebounding, he said he is 100pct healthy now so only time will tell

ManRam
07-10-2013, 10:21 AM
All I can say about Howard is that he needs to win some titles. Otherwise he'll be looked at as a system player and possibly the most overrated player in NBA history.

Put up or shut up Dwight.

Shep, you're a great poster, but you're starting to slip with the DH stuff.

ONE SEASON. That's what you're getting so carried away with. Now, if he looks iffy for the next 2-4 years or whatever then we can start seriously talking about your "Dwight is the most overrated player ever" theory, but you're basing this thought (probably hope at this point) on one terribly disappointing season with LA in which he was hurt, playing under a coach that was a terrible fit for him and trying to adjust to playing with stars...many of which were in and out of the lineup all year.

One season and you're ready to start calling him the most overrated player ever?


One season.


Y'all have caught amnesia.

UPRock
07-10-2013, 10:23 AM
the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

I've to disagree with you, Cleveland wasn't a championship contender, they were good but not championship contenders and Howard didn't left a rebuilding Lakers either, L.A. wasn't rebuilding and I still think that they're not rebuilding. I know that Howard is in your favorite team and that you like making threads about him but C'MON SON! You know more than that.

BigCityofDreams
07-10-2013, 11:41 AM
Shep, you're a great poster, but you're starting to slip with the DH stuff.

ONE SEASON. That's what you're getting so carried away with. Now, if he looks iffy for the next 2-4 years or whatever then we can start seriously talking about your "Dwight is the most overrated player ever" theory, but you're basing this thought (probably hope at this point) on one terribly disappointing season with LA in which he was hurt, playing under a coach that was a terrible fit for him and trying to adjust to playing with stars...many of which were in and out of the lineup all year.

One season and you're ready to start calling him the most overrated player ever?


One season.


Y'all have caught amnesia.

He maybe going a little overboard with his criticism but he is right Howard has to win titles. We hold Lebron, Melo, Kobe and others feet to the fire so the same should be expected of Howard. He said he went to a team that gave him the best chance to win and he had every right to make that choice. So starting this season go ahead and start winning.

Nats_vcu-Okc35
07-10-2013, 11:57 AM
Stan Van Gundy wasn't surprised at Shaq's comments, saying O'Neal is "unnaturally obsessed with Dwight."

Best part of the entire post.

3RDASYSTEM
07-10-2013, 12:26 PM
He maybe going a little overboard with his criticism but he is right Howard has to win titles. We hold Lebron, Melo, Kobe and others feet to the fire so the same should be expected of Howard. He said he went to a team that gave him the best chance to win and he had every right to make that choice. So starting this season go ahead and start winning.

This is why i know winning rings is a bunch of hype, for one bean wasn't held to this standard until he started winning a ring, 4yrs into his career and now all of a sudden it means this player is better because he won a title? HOWARD led a squad to finals so that should hold a lot of weight, along with the other accolades and if HOWARD wins a title or two with HOUSTON it doesn't elevate him as a player, it just reminds of us what a healthy all nba player can do, it doesn't matter how he does it, he just got a max deal for playing with a injured back and labrum, still led the league in rebounds, HOUSTON is in for a nice ride next 3yrs

BigCityofDreams
07-10-2013, 12:30 PM
This is why i know winning rings is a bunch of hype, for one bean wasn't held to this standard until he started winning a ring, 4yrs into his career and now all of a sudden it means this player is better because he won a title? HOWARD led a squad to finals so that should hold a lot of weight, along with the other accolades and if HOWARD wins a title or two with HOUSTON it doesn't elevate him as a player, it just reminds of us what a healthy all nba player can do, it doesn't matter how he does it, he just got a max deal for playing with a injured back and labrum, still led the league in rebounds, HOUSTON is in for a nice ride next 3yrs

Lebron led two teams to the finals with better accolades and was crucified for it until he won. Howard chose the team that gave him the best chance to win. I'm not ignoring what he has done but he wants to be a champion well go win a title. The ball is now in his court.

Chronz
07-10-2013, 12:37 PM
Man you la fans are quite the comedians

a straight out of HS player can be considered possibly the most overrated player in history?

i could have sworn that player plays for your beloved franchise, you know the same HS player that came straight into the nba as E.JONES backup for yrs but somehow he is magically a top 10 and even to some laker fans top 5, which is the furthest from the truth, top 50 i guess

now that's the most overrated player of alltime, no doubt about it

then HOWARD is a distant 2nd, if you choose to have it that way

now had HOWARD entered the league as a backup to CATO for yrs then i would possibly agree, but he was the franchise day1 player, he was that good so no need to backup inferior players

HOWARD may not have the ring, but you cant deny his impact in ORL and his 3 DPOY trophies and mvp runner ups and snubs and leading the lead like 4-5x in 9 yrs rebounding, he said he is 100pct healthy now so only time will tell
Why do you keep singing this tune? Players arent the same players from day 1. Nobody on this planet will believe your theory on that one. Its ridiculous for you to expect a teen whos body is still maturing, to play at the level he would in his prime.

Thats why to the rest of us, no matter how good of a point you try to make, YOU are the COMEDIAN.

Lakers Ghost
07-10-2013, 02:53 PM
Howard isnt the player people think he is he cares what people think of him and try to please them pissing other in the prosses. Howard wasnt the most hated player in the nba last season but who knows now that he left one of the biggest market team angry.

Lakers Ghost
07-10-2013, 03:03 PM
Lakers fans feel entitled. Sadly, it's not all their faults. Lakers are used to winning and always contending because they never had a CBA that restricted their owner or their ability to make moves. Now the Lakers are facing the prospect of actual rebuilding and it seems Lakers fans' don't know what to do. Add in the fact they rarely lose out on a free agent they want, especially when they can offer more money. So when Dwight left it put Lakers fans in a state of shock. I understand a little but geez they just need to get over and move on, being all butt-hurt about it will not fix anything. Don't hate the Rockets because they positioned themselves for this intentionally 2 years ago.

As a lakers fan I am not mad at the rockets or howard really. Howard isnt the player most people think rockets fans are going to be in shock when they learned that howard sucks not saying this because he left you can check my old posts if you like. There is a reason why lakers didnt fire d'antoni to keep a "franshise player ";)

Bruno
07-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Lakers fans feel entitled. Sadly, it's not all their faults. Lakers are used to winning and always contending because they never had a CBA that restricted their owner or their ability to make moves. Now the Lakers are facing the prospect of actual rebuilding and it seems Lakers fans' don't know what to do. Add in the fact they rarely lose out on a free agent they want, especially when they can offer more money. So when Dwight left it put Lakers fans in a state of shock. I understand a little but geez they just need to get over and move on, being all butt-hurt about it will not fix anything. Don't hate the Rockets because they positioned themselves for this intentionally 2 years ago.

two years ago they positioned themselves to land Pau Gasol. a trade that wouldn't have allowed them the cap space to land Dwight Howard today.

but entitlement is a funny thing. laker fans probably feel as entitled to have a contender as other teams in the NBA feel to take our money to keep their poorly ran organizations afloat. LAL pays for the mistakes of other franchises and they along with a few other teams keep this league a float. the rest of the league hates and resents the Lakers because ultimately, they need them.

but Laker fans shouldnt have resentment towards the rockets over this. it is what it is.

rocketfuel
07-10-2013, 03:19 PM
I had a different image of Howard back when he put on the Superman cape and was doing sticker dunks. I admit that the video of him pretending he's behind SVG while SVG just confirmed that he was told from the highest sources that Dwight wants him out just creeped me out. I know SVG is trying to be the bigger guy, but he shouldn't be defending Dwight.

dalton749
07-10-2013, 05:40 PM
did everyone just ignore the ops comment on the article? lol
LeBron left a contender, but Dwight didn't?
LeBron himself was the contender, but a team with kobe, nash, pau, Dwight isn't considered one?

ztilzer31
07-10-2013, 07:14 PM
two years ago they positioned themselves to land Pau Gasol. a trade that wouldn't have allowed them the cap space to land Dwight Howard today.

but entitlement is a funny thing. laker fans probably feel as entitled to have a contender as other teams in the NBA feel to take our money to keep their poorly ran organizations afloat. LAL pays for the mistakes of other franchises and they along with a few other teams keep this league a float. the rest of the league hates and resents the Lakers because ultimately, they need them.

but Laker fans shouldnt have resentment towards the rockets over this. it is what it is.

Lakers fans shouldn't have resentment toward anyone. Bunch of bogus articles throughout the year about Dwight's "attitude problems".

I thought one of the worst things I've ever seen was when Kobe didn't back up Dwight when he got hit for that bogus flagrant 2. The one time Kobe agree's with the ref's is when it's against Dwight. I understand people saying Dwight's been coddled forever, but you need a team that backs him up.

Plus all the LA media outlet put ALL the blame on Howard/Dantoni/Gasol. Then Gasol got injured. No one mentioned the lack of depth. The injured Nash. The injured Artest. Kobe getting worse on defense. LA fans should be mad at their ownership more than anything. For trading for a guy they knew didn't want to be there, and failing to build even remotely a semi good team, and then refusing to sign and trade.

It has been a series of bad event that is clearly a result of poor ownership. RIP Jerry Bus man. That's what they need more than anything.

Edit: Also lets not forget not signing Phil Jackson to at least a 1 year deal. It's a completely different season with Phil in there, and Dwight might even stay in LA. That's the sort of charisma Phil Jackson has.

ztilzer31
07-10-2013, 07:16 PM
did everyone just ignore the ops comment on the article? lol
LeBron left a contender, but Dwight didn't?
LeBron himself was the contender, but a team with kobe, nash, pau, Dwight isn't considered one?

LOL forreal. I'll take the Lakers without Dwight over the Cavs without LBJ any day of the week.

FOBolous
07-10-2013, 09:15 PM
LOL forreal. I'll take the Lakers without Dwight over the Cavs without LBJ any day of the week.

the Lakers with Dwight BARELY made the playoffs. and the Lakers played better WITH dwight on the floor. so what does that tell you about the Lakers without Dwight? contender? i think not. Lakers fans are kidding themselves.

BigCityofDreams
07-10-2013, 09:36 PM
Lakers fans shouldn't have resentment toward anyone. Bunch of bogus articles throughout the year about Dwight's "attitude problems".

I thought one of the worst things I've ever seen was when Kobe didn't back up Dwight when he got hit for that bogus flagrant 2. The one time Kobe agree's with the ref's is when it's against Dwight. I understand people saying Dwight's been coddled forever, but you need a team that backs him up.

Plus all the LA media outlet put ALL the blame on Howard/Dantoni/Gasol. Then Gasol got injured. No one mentioned the lack of depth. The injured Nash. The injured Artest. Kobe getting worse on defense. LA fans should be mad at their ownership more than anything. For trading for a guy they knew didn't want to be there, and failing to build even remotely a semi good team, and then refusing to sign and trade.

It has been a series of bad event that is clearly a result of poor ownership. RIP Jerry Bus man. That's what they need more than anything.

Edit: Also lets not forget not signing Phil Jackson to at least a 1 year deal. It's a completely different season with Phil in there, and Dwight might even stay in LA. That's the sort of charisma Phil Jackson has.

Why is it that when articles come out detailing the short comings of Howard they are bogus/get ignored but if it's about Kobe, D'antoni, Jim Buss, etc then they treated as gospel.

ztilzer31
07-10-2013, 11:25 PM
Why is it that when articles come out detailing the short comings of Howard they are bogus/get ignored but if it's about Kobe, D'antoni, Jim Buss, etc then they treated as gospel.

I think Howard was a complete jerk in Orlando, and if I was a Magic fan I'd hate Dwight for sure...

However I'm confused to what Dwight did wrong in LA.

I'm not putting anything on Kobe besides that once again he failed to meet the needs of his teammates... Call it what you want, but a leader needs to make sure his teammates are comfortable and want to play. Phil Jackson was great at that. Probably his best skill. Creating team unity, and making sure everyone's ego was filled.

Kobe tried to play this alpha male "be my under study and learn from me" thing, and Dwight totally rejected it.

Dantoni get's trash because his system is garbage. Using Pau on the outside, and not setting up any offense for Dwight hurt the Lakers real bad.

Buss gets trash because he traded for a player that didn't want to be there. Didn't do the one thing any idiot would do (sign Phil Jackson). Then in attempts to resign Dwight he refused to listen to sign and trades.

Buss played this whole thing stupid, and really it all comes down to not keep Phil Jackson. Phil would of made this team work. We all know that, and from comments Phil has made he was about to take the job before Bus decided not to have him coach anymore....

How is Buss not to blame.. He's made nothing but a torrent of mistakes, and bad decisions since he started his tenure with LA.

John Walls Era
07-11-2013, 12:19 AM
When you smell like a rat, act like a rat, you're a rat.

TonyDanza
07-11-2013, 12:38 AM
Dwight is a cancer look at how he handled Orlando ..ie Stan Van GUndy ..ie teammates as well as him making fun of Kobe Bryant at all star weekend by wearing Kobes jersey and parading around mocking the team captain and organization simply...He will never be the superstar he and others think he is ...he's simply a talented star that has major maturity issues...

ztilzer31
07-11-2013, 01:16 AM
Dwight is a cancer look at how he handled Orlando ..ie Stan Van GUndy ..ie teammates as well as him making fun of Kobe Bryant at all star weekend by wearing Kobes jersey and parading around mocking the team captain and organization simply...He will never be the superstar he and others think he is ...he's simply a talented star that has major maturity issues...

Oh no way. A superstar player tried to get his coach fired? Lol. You act like that was the first time that's happened in the history of the NBA.

Oh nooooo. Kobe got made fun of! What an outrage! Dwight was BSing with 3 known jokers in KD, CP3, and Blake Griffin.

Not enough reason to hate the guy. Gary Payton was the biggest ******* in the world. Got George Karl fired, and was constantly in fights with media and all sorts of personnel. He was a pain to handle and most of the media HATED GP. But he's okay because he stayed on our team? No. Superstars do dumb stuff. That doesn't change how good that player is or how awesome some of there season have been.

Dwight Howard is a first ballot hall of famer. He will retire as a great. And all you people saying he's overrated are probably the exact same people that were saying LBJ isn't a top 5 player in the NBA 3 years ago.

Stop being stupid and form and opinion out of basketball, not out of what you think you know. You weren't in that locker room. You don't know what happened. Neither do I. People guide your opinion learn to formulate your own.

5ass
07-11-2013, 01:23 AM
Dwight is a cancer look at how he handled Orlando ..ie Stan Van GUndy ..ie teammates as well as him making fun of Kobe Bryant at all star weekend by wearing Kobes jersey and parading around mocking the team captain and organization simply...He will never be the superstar he and others think he is ...he's simply a talented star that has major maturity issues...

I agree about everything except the superstar part. Dwight was a top 3 player in orl. We will see what he does in houston. I think he'll go back to being the paint dominator that he was. Harden and dwight are going to be bring the best out of each other. The way harden and howard go to the line, other teams' bigs are wlways going to be in foul trouble. When the best way to stop howard is to foul him, you're in trouble.

Sssmush
07-11-2013, 01:38 AM
Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.


Cleveland is a really blah NBA destination, with very limited marketability. In spite of that, Lebron made Cleveland a ton of money yet didn't get properly appreciated by management, who didn't go after building a good team to surround him.

Lebron was a really big deal and he knew it. Every team in the NBA wanted him and had made that fact known.

Lebron was totally honest about his decision, in fact he announced it LIVE on television in a face to face interview.

Dwight left the most glamorous team in the biggest and most lucrative market in the entire NBA, by far.

Dwight "leaked" his announcement and then twittered it, and then slinked his way out of town, without even giving a press conference.

Dwight is nowhere near as good as Lebron, everybody understands that. Whereas Lebron was "the sky's the limit" Dwight is basically just a good big man, top 3 center in the league or whatever.

I think everybody also understands that if the Lakers had truly determined to keep Howard at all costs they could have, even if that meant amnestying kobe, firing Dantoni, hiring Phil, trading for Josh Howard, etc. Lakers could have done it. It really looked to me like they were glad he was deciding to leave and they just let it happen.

#D12STAY LoL

Sssmush
07-11-2013, 01:42 AM
Here's the line that every media person pulls out when a commentator like Kornheiser says "Who CARES?!?"

"Well, Dwight led the league in rebounds last season."

....

Uh, ok. He also seems to have hands like Kwame and fumbled about a thousand passes into the post, can't make free throws and seems to act a bit goofy. He's also a big liar, or so it is starting to seem after 2 solid years of dwight drama.

So, uh, I'm with Kornheiser in saying "Who CARES?!?"

again, so he got .03 rebounds more than Brook Lopez or Josh Smith or whoever. Seriously...

RiceOnTheRun
07-11-2013, 03:34 AM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9461992/dwight-howard-image-problems-reminiscent-lebron-james





- edit -

the article made a lot of comparisons between Lebron and Dwight, i like to point out there's one big difference between what they did:

Lebron abandoned a championship contender, for which he was a leader of, to team up with other stars. THAT'S messed up.

Dwight chose to leave a rebuilding team. This isn't the first time in history that a star player bolted from a rebuilding team. NO stars in the NBA would willingly play on a rebuilding team...especially one that's in his prime. NBA players' careers are short...their prime is even shorter. Howard would be incredibly dumb to waste his limited prime years playing for a rebuilding team. What Howard did was not out of the ordinary.

Lebron WAS the championship contender. He's the only reason they were in contention in the first place. Take him out of that roster and you really think they're a contender? They're a fringe playoff team without him.


He shouldn't be the most hated tbh. I don't like what he has done over the past couple of yrs but I'm surprised he would be the most hated.

Not at all. From what I've seen, he's a genuinely nice guy. He doesn't owe LA jack ****. He was traded there for a year, and he made no guarantees he'd stay before they traded for him.

WickedBadMan
07-11-2013, 05:41 AM
Simple fact is, if you are a top 10 player, and you leave the team that drafted you with ANY drama whatsoever you will be hated.

It's not the exact same since he isn't as high profile as Lebron or Dwight, but Carmelo handled himself fairly well. It was, "I'm just focusing on the season." while he was playing, no major "which team will it be?!" for 8 months. He wanted to go to NY, told the Nuggets, and went about his business.

FOBolous
07-11-2013, 05:47 AM
Lebron WAS the championship contender. He's the only reason they were in contention in the first place. Take him out of that roster and you really think they're a contender? They're a fringe playoff team without him.



Not at all. From what I've seen, he's a genuinely nice guy. He doesn't owe LA jack ****. He was traded there for a year, and he made no guarantees he'd stay before they traded for him.

i think if you take the star of any championship contender away, they stop contending.

BigCityofDreams
07-11-2013, 09:04 AM
I think Howard was a complete jerk in Orlando, and if I was a Magic fan I'd hate Dwight for sure...

However I'm confused to what Dwight did wrong in LA.

I'm not putting anything on Kobe besides that once again he failed to meet the needs of his teammates... Call it what you want, but a leader needs to make sure his teammates are comfortable and want to play. Phil Jackson was great at that. Probably his best skill. Creating team unity, and making sure everyone's ego was filled.

Kobe tried to play this alpha male "be my under study and learn from me" thing, and Dwight totally rejected it.

Dantoni get's trash because his system is garbage. Using Pau on the outside, and not setting up any offense for Dwight hurt the Lakers real bad.

Buss gets trash because he traded for a player that didn't want to be there. Didn't do the one thing any idiot would do (sign Phil Jackson). Then in attempts to resign Dwight he refused to listen to sign and trades.

Buss played this whole thing stupid, and really it all comes down to not keep Phil Jackson. Phil would of made this team work. We all know that, and from comments Phil has made he was about to take the job before Bus decided not to have him coach anymore....

How is Buss not to blame.. He's made nothing but a torrent of mistakes, and bad decisions since he started his tenure with LA.

What he did was detailed in the Wojo article a while back. I'm not saying Dwight went into T.O. mode but he did cause chemistry problems inside the locker room. There were times when he didn't give his all. Is everything his fault of course not but now fans of others teams are painting it as him not getting a chance and things spiraled beyond his control.