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Mile High Champ
07-07-2013, 01:05 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Tony Parker
3) Russel Westbrook
4) Stephen Curry
5) Kyrie Irving
6) Deron Williams
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9) Kyle Lowry
10) Ty Lawson

2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
07-07-2013, 01:06 PM
Mods please sticky.

Jaded
07-07-2013, 01:14 PM
Ty Lawson or Rondo imo.

ManningToTyree
07-07-2013, 01:15 PM
Rondo

Mile High Champ
07-07-2013, 01:16 PM
Here is a comparison of 6 players from the poll that I feel our deserving of going anywhere in the next 4 polls.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=lawsoty01&y1=2013&p2=rondora01&y2=2013&p3=holidjr01&y3=2013&p4=hillge01&y4=2013&p5=lowryky01&y5=2013&p6=conlemi01&y6=2013

Mile High Champ
07-07-2013, 01:18 PM
Mike Conley here for me. Jrue had an alright season but his advanced stats are just plain ordinary. Hill and Conley have a real case here at 7.

bloomis1307
07-07-2013, 01:24 PM
Rondo here again.....should have been 5th but oh well....Next I have Conley then Jrue

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-07-2013, 01:27 PM
I have Jrue. Arguably the best defensive PG last season and was pretty good on the offensive end for the majority of the year last year.

DDynO
07-07-2013, 01:30 PM
Holiday or Wall.

Iggz53
07-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Was torn between Conley and Lawson here. Went with Conley at the end for his defensive edge. Not a huge fan of Hill tbh; not going with Rondo, one of the reasons being how well the Celtics played without him; Wall will have his time but not there yet; Holiday put up big numbers on horrible efficiency; and Lowry was disappointingly inconsistent this year.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 01:33 PM
It's between Conley, Rondo and Lawson IMO. Y'all are overrating Holiday if you're voting for him here.

I'm probably gonna vote Conley but I'm gonna think about it. I've taken a 180 on Rondo the past few years as his role has expanded, and I'm firmly on the Rondo-is-probably-overrated-by-most bandwagon, but I might be slightly carried away. He's hyper-deficient in terms of scoring, but he does excel at just about everything else. I'm just not sure that makes up for that aversion and inability to score.

Wall should be in the discussion too.

b@llhog24
07-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Conley.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 01:33 PM
dbl post

Hawkeye15
07-07-2013, 02:17 PM
Conley

btw, not that Rubio is going to be in the top 10, but how can he not even make the poll when guys like Nelson, Teague, Kemba, Dragic, and a couple others..

bloomis1307
07-07-2013, 03:16 PM
So last year Conley had about 1 more point per game than Rondo (based on averages) and Rondo about 5 more assists.....So there is his aversion to score. On top of that Rondo had a .480 shooting percentage. I understand Rondo isn't a great shooter but he drives to the hoop better than any other PG not named Tony Parker in the league. To say the reason you choose Conley is because of his offense is wrong. Conley is as hot cold of a player as they come on the offensive end. If you were arguing about Conley's better defense then I might agree with you.


It's between Conley, Rondo and Lawson IMO. Y'all are overrating Holiday if you're voting for him here.

I'm probably gonna vote Conley but I'm gonna think about it. I've taken a 180 on Rondo the past few years as his role has expanded, and I'm firmly on the Rondo-is-probably-overrated-by-most bandwagon, but I might be slightly carried away. He's hyper-deficient in terms of scoring, but he does excel at just about everything else. I'm just not sure that makes up for that aversion and inability to score.

Wall should be in the discussion too.

VCaintdead17
07-07-2013, 03:19 PM
Hill isn't even in the conversation in my opinion.


Also, no love for Lillard?

D-Leethal
07-07-2013, 03:39 PM
Shame how underrated Rondo has become on this forum. And its a damn shame scoring efficiency has become the end-all-be-all to basketball discussion on this forum.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 03:54 PM
Shame how underrated Rondo has become on this forum. And its a damn shame scoring efficiency has become the end-all-be-all to basketball discussion on this forum.

Not the end-all-be-all...just extremely important. He's a liability a lot of the time because he can't score and his biggest scoring strength - getting to the rim - is greatly hampered because of his aversion to drawing contact and going to the FT line. He avoids fouls a lot because he doesn't want to go to the line.

And his raw passing numbers are in part so high because he refuses to look for his own shot so much and he dominates ball-possession almost unlike anyone else in the league.

Bruno
07-07-2013, 04:03 PM
ive got rondo here, conley close on his tail.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 04:06 PM
I guess ultimately I think there are some teams where I think Rondo would help more and some where Conley would help more. It depends what you need. I don't think there is necessarily a universally correct answer.

mp3
07-07-2013, 04:12 PM
How is it not Rondo?

Green_Monster
07-07-2013, 04:20 PM
How is it not Rondo?

Some people only care about scoring. Not passing, defense, basketball IQ, etc.

Chavacano
07-07-2013, 04:23 PM
Michael Alex Conley, Jr.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 04:30 PM
How is it not Rondo?

here's part of my case against Rondo:

Offensive rating with Rondo on the court: 100.9
Offensive rating with Rondo off the court: 104.6

Hmmm...

As Rondo's role has increased over the past few years, the Celtics' offensive production has dipped. Sure, some of that can be credited to the decline in KG, Pierce, Allen etc., but it is an indictment on him too.

2007-2008: 110.2 ORtg
2008-2009: 110.5 ORtg
2009-2010: 107.7 ORtg
2010-2011: 106.2 ORtg
2011-2012: 101.0 ORtg
This year it was around 102 when he went out.


It's dipping as his role is expanding. If he's such a tremendous offensive maestro, why do his offenses suck lately? Why is his team's offensive production better with him off the court?

If you're building a team from scratch why would you want him? I'd be fine with him on my team if I had some great big men, but I'm not starting a team around him as my best player.


I think 7 is a fair spot for him. He's shown that he can go berserk in the playoffs, but that's been at such an inconsistent rate as well. They had more team success when he had to do less, not more.


I just think offenses these days that are so dependent on a PG that dominants the ball as much as Rondo aren't going to have success as PGs that don't. Offenses with more balance and multiple guys that can create are better. If Rondo is on your team he is going to have the ball in his hands all the time because he's not effective if he doesn't. And I think that's in the end going to hurt more than help. You can find a lot of guys that can put up high assist totals if you tell them to run every possession and be as scoring-deficient as him.

Rondo is a good defender, but it's not as suffocating as it once was and any dive into the advanced metrics and synergy data out there suggests he's closer to league-average than elite.

Green_Monster
07-07-2013, 04:41 PM
here's part of my case against Rondo:

Offensive rating with Rondo on the court: 100.9
Offensive rating with Rondo off the court: 104.6

Hmmm...

The Celtics offense didn't run many plays. Rondo is best when everyone is moving and making cuts/setting picks. With an old Pierce/KG and a jump shooting Brandon Bass, the offense didn't have much to work with.


As Rondo's role has increased over the past few years, the Celtics' offensive production has dipped. Sure, some of that can be credited to the decline in KG, Pierce, Allen etc., but it is an indictment on him too.

Almost all of it can be credited to the decline of Pierce, KG, and Allen.


2007-2008: 110.2 ORtg
2008-2009: 110.5 ORtg
2009-2010: 107.7 ORtg
2010-2011: 106.2 ORtg
2011-2012: 101.0 ORtg
This year it was around 102 when he went out.

Less movement in the offense and more isolation, combined with getting back on defense and not crashing the boards, played a huge part in this.


It's dipping as his role is expanding. If he's such a tremendous offensive maestro, why do his offenses suck lately? Why is his team's offensive production better with him off the court?

If don't know if yo watched the Celtics playoff basketball, but the offense was terrible. It was horrendous to watch. They didn't run any plays, the offense was dead without Rondo.


If you're building a team from scratch why would you want him? I'd be fine with him on my team if I had some great big men, but I'm not starting a team around him as my best player.

At this point, you might not want him. He's older than most of the options on the list. But, that has nothing to do with how high he ranks right now.


I think 7 is a fair spot for him. He's shown that he can go berserk in the playoffs, but that's been at such an inconsistent rate as well. They had more team success when he had to do less, not more.

He performs much better on the bigger stages.

Ezio
07-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Let's see how Rondo does w/o Allen/Pierce/KG. ;)

Iggz53
07-07-2013, 06:46 PM
The decline of KG, Pierce, and Garnett have nothing to do with how much better Boston played offensively without Rondo than with him. That should honestly NEVER happen to any team with a player considered one of the best at his position.

Jumba
07-07-2013, 07:44 PM
Conley

IversonIsKrazy
07-07-2013, 07:56 PM
rondo.

b@llhog24
07-07-2013, 08:04 PM
Let's see how Rondo does w/o Allen/Pierce/KG. ;)

I think he'll get "exposed" if his team remains as constructed.

ManRam
07-07-2013, 08:10 PM
The decline of KG, Pierce, and Garnett have nothing to do with how much better Boston played offensively without Rondo than with him. That should honestly NEVER happen to any team with a player considered one of the best at his position.

Exactly. With great weapons Rondo is a great asset. He'll do all the small things, and occasionally go NOVA.

But on a team with lesser weapons I think at times he can be more restrictive offensively than not.

DanG
07-08-2013, 10:30 AM
Rondo.

Chronz
07-08-2013, 12:50 PM
Shame how underrated Rondo has become on this forum. And its a damn shame scoring efficiency has become the end-all-be-all to basketball discussion on this forum.

Ignoring your blatant exaggeration, you will be surprised to know that its not just this forum, its the basketball community in general, I think it has to do with the league wide revolution taking place.

I suppose you can take solace in the fact that the field seems to have stagnated, all of the great strides we've made in analytics recently have been stunted because all of these guys are getting hired by NBA teams now. Nobody wants to share anything any more.

Chronz
07-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Exactly. With great weapons Rondo is a great asset. He'll do all the small things, and occasionally go NOVA.

But on a team with lesser weapons I think at times he can be more restrictive offensively than not.
How serious was Rondo's injury?

Is he as much of an unknown as John Wall is? I know its a dangerous trap to look at second half splits but in the case of Wall, thats basically his whole season. And during the 2nd half of the year, Wall was one of the most productive PG's in the league and his teams defense was far more effective. I think hes going to be the next Rondo in terms of playmaking and elite defense (sad that more people havent noticed Rondo's slippage defensively too) but I have a feeling he will be a far more aggressive scorer than Rondo. Hes got my vote

Guppyfighter
07-08-2013, 02:58 PM
Lawson is better than Rondo.

tredigs
07-08-2013, 03:30 PM
Was hoping to see improvement out of Lawson this year but got stuck with regression. Seems like he'll forever be a major liability defensively too.