PDA

View Full Version : 6th Annual PSD Player Rankings #5 PG In The NBA? (Volume: VI)



Mile High Champ
07-03-2013, 02:50 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Tony Parker
3) Russel Westbrook
4) Stephen Curry
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9) Kyle Lowry
10) Ty Lawson

2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
07-03-2013, 02:51 AM
Please sticky mods.

Chacarron
07-03-2013, 03:00 AM
I like Kyrie here.

SugeKnight
07-03-2013, 03:02 AM
This one is close. I'll wait to vote on this one

Ebbs
07-03-2013, 03:02 AM
Toughest decision of the poll right here for me.

tredigs
07-03-2013, 03:30 AM
Deron Williams for me.

He one upped Kyrie last year in WinShares + WS/48, Ast%, TS% (tho' this was just because of Kyrie's volume of shooting. His slash#'s are all better than Deron), along with Offensive Rating (significantly) and Defensive Rating. Per-36 was 19/3/8 for Deron to 23/4/6 for Kyrie.

Deron also improved as the year went on and won me over with his 2nd half play. Kyrie has a case in that he had more asked of him by his team, but it ended up with Cleveland being one of the bottom 5 teams in the league and we saw NO IMPROVEMENT out of Irving over his rookie season (his WS/48, PER and Defensive Rating were literally identical to his rookie season. And his TS%, O Rating and AST% actually took slight dips). Deron helping to lead his team to their first playoff birth in half a decade along with having slightly better overall #'s gets the nod for me.

And Rondo's not in the discussion for me. He hardly played, and when he did it was definitely a lesser production than these two guys (lower PER/WS/O Rating, TS%, etc). Doesn't help his case that Boston's offense actually improved with him out.

b@llhog24
07-03-2013, 04:09 AM
Uncle Drew.

Guppyfighter
07-03-2013, 04:25 AM
Surprising to look at all of their stats and see Deron was the best one. Honestly, the way we talk about the Nets here I just assumed he wasn't top five anymore.

NBA-GMaster
07-03-2013, 04:39 AM
Im going for Kyrie again..
Next Deron, then Rondo, then Holiday..

sunsfan88
07-03-2013, 04:54 AM
Deron. How can Kyrie be a top 5 PG while being on one of the worst teams in basketball?

Deron and Rondo should both be ahead of Kyrie.

FOBolous
07-03-2013, 04:56 AM
I think Rondo deserves to be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league for being the top assist man in the league...plus I think, of all PGs in the league, he plays the best defense.

Chavacano
07-03-2013, 08:15 AM
Deron Michael Williams.

Guppyfighter
07-03-2013, 08:16 AM
I think Rondo deserves to be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league for being the top assist man in the league...plus I think, of all PGs in the league, he plays the best defense.

AHAHA

Seriously?

SteBO
07-03-2013, 08:53 AM
D-Will....not sure where all the Kyrie love is coming from.

G-Menn!
07-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Dwill

Guppyfighter
07-03-2013, 08:59 AM
Guys. This poll is not based on potential.

DWill is definitely the best player left on the list.

SteBO
07-03-2013, 09:03 AM
Guys. This poll is not based on potential.

DWill is definitely the best player left on the list.
Sadly your words will fall on deaf ears, because nobody wants to grasp the purpose of these polls MHC tries his best to instill here. It's the same ole' thing year in and year out.

X12Celtics3
07-03-2013, 09:13 AM
I think Rondo deserves to be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league for being the top assist man in the league...plus I think, of all PGs in the league, he plays the best defense.

Yikes...

FOBolous
07-03-2013, 10:41 AM
AHAHA

Seriously?

seriously.

Mishmin
07-03-2013, 10:50 AM
It's Rondo

RaJAxTWa
07-03-2013, 10:50 AM
Deron even though he played hurt last year, wait till next year when this guy is going to have a better squad and should be fully healthy

FOBolous
07-03-2013, 10:51 AM
I think Rondo deserves to be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league for being the top assist man in the league...plus I think, of all PGs in the league, he plays the best defense.


Yikes...

i mean...he only leads the league in steals and was named on the NBA All-Defensive First Team twice and NBA All-Defensive Second Team twice.

and again...how can a PG who leads the league in assists not be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league?

Bruno
07-03-2013, 10:55 AM
Irving.

Williams next.

G-Menn!
07-03-2013, 11:55 AM
lol undeserved uncle drew love, i see.

G-Menn!
07-03-2013, 11:57 AM
seriously.

nah, cp3 is the best pg defender from the bunch. rondo gambles a lot on defense going for the steal rather than staying on your man..

G-Menn!
07-03-2013, 12:02 PM
i mean...he only leads the league in steals and was named on the NBA All-Defensive First Team twice and NBA All-Defensive Second Team twice.

and again...how can a PG who leads the league in assists not be in the top 5 of all PGs in the league?

imo thats all the reason not to put him in there.. the dude is a notorious stat sheet stuffer, and this is coming from the Boston media themselves..

They say he only shows up during national televised games, gambles a lot on defense for the steal and more often is unsuccessful, refuses to improve his offensive game, easy oppurtunity to score for himself, he passes the ball for an assist..

not all coming from me, but i started noticing it once i read it.

bloomis1307
07-03-2013, 12:35 PM
Kyrie is best offensive PG left and for whatever reason people seem to be enamored by this style of PG.....see Westbrook, Rose etc....To me though getting your team involved is more important than finding your own if you're running the offense. Does Rondo pad his stats some, of course, but he gets the team involved better than any other pg left on this list so I go with him even though people will put Dwill and Kyrie over him

tredigs
07-03-2013, 01:02 PM
Kyrie is best offensive PG left and for whatever reason people seem to be enamored by this style of PG.....see Westbrook, Rose etc....To me though getting your team involved is more important than finding your own if you're running the offense. Does Rondo pad his stats some, of course, but he gets the team involved better than any other pg left on this list so I go with him even though people will put Dwill and Kyrie over him
He does, but unfortunately you also want your point guard at the very least to be able to stretch the floor with a jumper, and he can't do that. Plus, he missed over half the season with injury (and the Celtics offense IMPROVED statistically without him). Not sure why he'd be in consideration for anyone over much more capable all around players.

Can anyone here voting Kyrie actually rebuttal my first comment and tell me why he had a better year than Deron in your opinion?

Should also note that Deron was voted #4 last season - and had a better year this year - while Kyrie was voted #8 last season, and had a slightly worse year. Him missing 30% of the season - while D. Will played through injury and killed in the 2nd half seals it for me. He was definitely the better player.

FOBolous
07-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Kyrie is best offensive PG left and for whatever reason people seem to be enamored by this style of PG.....see Westbrook, Rose etc....To me though getting your team involved is more important than finding your own if you're running the offense. Does Rondo pad his stats some, of course, but he gets the team involved better than any other pg left on this list so I go with him even though people will put Dwill and Kyrie over him

this.


:clap:

unleashthebeast
07-03-2013, 01:15 PM
I have Kyrie here then Rondo next. I think Kyrie will continue to climb the list next off-season though

tredigs
07-03-2013, 01:19 PM
I have Kyrie here then Rondo next. I think Kyrie will continue to climb the list next off-season though

Even if he does not improve a lick, misses a ton of games and the Cavs are still a bottom 5 team, like this year?

Uncle Drew's doing work for Kyrie in these polls.

Bruno
07-03-2013, 01:28 PM
Irving leads all remains PGs in PER. he easily has an argument, as does Deron.

all the talk that he shouldn't be in the discussion is interesting :confused:

dolfan720
07-03-2013, 01:30 PM
Gotta be D-Will. Kyrie isnt better than him yet, but will be soon.....

Greet
07-03-2013, 01:31 PM
This isn't Kyrie's place. Voted D-Will, and I think all you need to do is look at tredigs post and you will know why.

tredigs
07-03-2013, 01:47 PM
Irving leads all remains PGs in PER. he easily has an argument, as does Deron.

all the talk that he shouldn't be in the discussion is interesting :confused:

Not sure there's much talk if any that he shouldn't be in the discussion. Other than Rondo he's personally the only one I'm focusing on with D. Will.

And yes, he leads 'em slightly in PER. But remember that PER rewards shot-takers and Kyrie's 18+ attempts to Deron's 14 is what gives him the edge there. But Kyrie had a MUCH lower WS/48 and Offensive Rating than Deron (as well as a lower TS% + AST%, two of the more important PG stats), and due to both games missed + worse production, accumulated literally half the total WinShares of Deron (which it isn't necessary to be on a playoff team to accumulate. K. Love was top 10 the past two seasons. D. Will finished 9th overall this year).

It's pretty cut and dry to me, pretty much the sole argument for Kyrie is that he has a 1 point better PER, I guess? Ironically both of their PERs are identical to last year, where Deron finished 4th and him 8th.

Bruno
07-03-2013, 02:03 PM
Not sure there's much talk if any that he shouldn't be in the discussion. Other than Rondo he's personally the only one I'm focusing on with D. Will.
a vote for Irving is getting a lot of criticism in this thread.


And yes, he leads 'em slightly in PER. But remember that PER rewards shot-takers and Kyrie's 18+ attempts to Deron's 14 is what gives him the edge there. But Kyrie had a MUCH lower WS/48 and Offensive Rating than Deron (as well as a lower TS% + AST%, two of the more important PG stats), and due to both games missed + worse production, accumulated literally half the total WinShares of Deron (which it isn't necessary to be on a playoff team to accumulate. K. Love was top 10 the past two seasons. D. Will finished 9th overall this year).


well thats because Kevin Love is a beast. it's usually more difficult to rack up elite ws/48 minutes when on a bottom dwelling team.

I picked him because I think he's the best player left on the board. not because of potential or any hype-campaign off the court; i think a lot of people who voted for him feel the same way.

tredigs
07-03-2013, 03:18 PM
a vote for Irving is getting a lot of criticism in this thread.



well thats because Kevin Love is a beast. it's usually more difficult to rack up elite ws/48 minutes when on a bottom dwelling team.

I picked him because I think he's the best player left on the board. not because of potential or any hype-campaign off the court; i think a lot of people who voted for him feel the same way.

As a #1, I don't think it makes a difference. You can hide under the veil of an elite #1 if you're a 2nd/3rd option and accrue extra win shares, but I haven't seen it work the other way. It's simply that he did not have a huge offensive impact and had a weak defensive impact.

22.5/3.7/5.9 on solid efficiency is nice and all, but if you consider that he's their only true ball handler and had a 30+% Usage rate (4th highest in the NBA), it leaves a lot to be desired. I think that people think Kyrie got better this year, but his rookie campaign was better. His rebounding, shooting and playmaking all took a dip this year.

I'm just not ready to jump a young player over D. Will from one year to another when D. Will improved and Kyrie did not. We also all know how terrible Kyrie is defensively, right?

I actually like the kid a ton, but his argument sucks here.

GMpunk
07-03-2013, 03:28 PM
every1 ranks tony parker so low but the dude has been 4 NBA finalz

IversonIsKrazy
07-03-2013, 03:58 PM
Was between DWill AND Rondo for me, cant give Kyrie, a dude who hasnt played in playoffs yet, the nod over those 2. I Went with DWill tho.

Hawkeye15
07-03-2013, 04:15 PM
I voted Kyrie, but Deron has just as good of a case here.

LAKERMANIA
07-03-2013, 04:26 PM
Irving

Bruno
07-03-2013, 04:37 PM
As a #1, I don't think it makes a difference. You can hide under the veil of an elite #1 if you're a 2nd/3rd option and accrue extra win shares, but I haven't seen it work the other way. It's simply that he did not have a huge offensive impact and had a weak defensive impact.

Look at williams. he posted a WS/48 of .099 in 2011-2012 with the Nets when the Nets had the 12th worst record in the East out of 15 teams, and a winning percentage of .333. In 2012-2013 the Nets had a winning percentage of .600, were the 4th spot in East; Williams posted a WS/48 of .184. was he a totally different player from one year or another? he averaged more points, more assists, more steals, more rebounds in 2011-2012 when he had significantly lower WS/48. team success has an impact.




I actually like the kid a ton, but his argument sucks here.
you said he was in the discussion.

Chronz
07-03-2013, 04:47 PM
Im going to have to punish Kyrie for his teammates, I really want to see this kid in the playoffs. Im sure hed be the same but in a comparison with D-Will, its something I wont ignore. His lack of defensive growth was the main reason his coach got fired, you can blame whoever you want there but the fact remains hes a liability to this day.

Deron to me has the best combination of stats (RS+PS), skillset (score+pass ability) and surprisingly, durability . Rondo and Kyrie have a much closer argument than Deron and either of them IMO.

Avenged
07-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Meant to vote for Irving but accidently voted for Lowry :facepalm:

WITZ
07-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Meant to vote for Irving but accidently voted for Lowry :facepalm:

:laugh2: Your not alone, I think those 2 votes for Lawson were accidental as well ...I hope :laugh: . Kyrie for #5

Bookey
07-03-2013, 06:32 PM
Rondo is so overrated, he plays horrible defense and gambles every possession and loses his man as a result. He may get steals by playing such a way but has to be a headache for the coach in the process because he keeps getting beat by his man. He is a good passer but pads his assist stats. He still can't shoot and misses layups way too often.

tredigs
07-03-2013, 06:59 PM
Look at williams. he posted a WS/48 of .099 in 2011-2012 with the Nets when the Nets had the 12th worst record in the East out of 15 teams, and a winning percentage of .333. In 2012-2013 the Nets had a winning percentage of .600, were the 4th spot in East; Williams posted a WS/48 of .184. was he a totally different player from one year or another? he averaged more points, more assists, more steals, more rebounds in 2011-2012 when he had significantly lower WS/48. team success has an impact.




you said he was in the discussion.

In 11/12 Deron was a far less efficient scorer. 52.7% to 57.4% for TS%. He scored just 2 more ppg despite taking 3 more shots. AST% was better last year, but turnover% was worse. His Offensive rating was significantly better this year (106 to 118 this year) and his D was better too. He definitely played better this season than last, and maintained that play through the post-season.

Can you explain why Kyrie makes the jump in your opinion despite making no improvements, and actually falling off slightly this year?

tredigs
07-03-2013, 10:07 PM
Nobody? Alright then. Uncle Drew* it is.

G-Menn!
07-04-2013, 01:26 AM
Wow kyrie is overrated this year and he played better last year
:laugh2:

b@llhog24
07-04-2013, 11:58 AM
Go Kyrie! :clap:

Bruno
07-04-2013, 12:15 PM
In 11/12 Deron was a far less efficient scorer. 52.7% to 57.4% for TS%. He scored just 2 more ppg despite taking 3 more shots. AST% was better last year, but turnover% was worse. His Offensive rating was significantly better this year (106 to 118 this year) and his D was better too. He definitely played better this season than last, and maintained that play through the post-season.

Can you explain why Kyrie makes the jump in your opinion despite making no improvements, and actually falling off slightly this year?

yea, he was better. but literally twice as good compared to his WS/48? no, that in part reflects on his team success.


Nobody? Alright then. Uncle Drew* it is.

you know i dont post twenty times a day/check psd all day long.

Greet
07-04-2013, 12:29 PM
Bruno, I don't think his second post was supposed to be towards you. But more general for everyone who voted Kyrie over the more deserving Deron.

JLynn943
07-04-2013, 12:36 PM
apparently Grievis Vasquez is great, I vote for him.

ManRam
07-04-2013, 12:44 PM
i looked through the list quickly, didn't see kyrie until after i voted for deron...was going to post about how i messed up, but then realized i didn't actually.

sunsfan88
07-04-2013, 06:51 PM
If Kyrie can be a top 5 PG while being on an awful team then Kemba Walker and Dragic better be #6 and #7.

ManRam
07-04-2013, 07:09 PM
If Kyrie can be a top 5 PG while being on an awful team then Kemba Walker and Dragic better be #6 and #7.

let's say lebron got traded to whoever you think is the worst team in the NBA for all their good players. that team does WAY worse than the heat did this year, but lebron still is putting up his normal stats. is he magically any less of a player than he was this past year? not at all.


my point: great players can be on unsuccessful teams. just because a team sucks doesn't mean that player does too. the cavs had so little talent around kyrie last year that it's foolish to use their record to knock him IMO.

sunsfan88
07-04-2013, 07:19 PM
let's say lebron got traded to whoever you think is the worst team in the NBA for all their good players. that team does WAY worse than the heat did this year, but lebron still is putting up his normal stats. is he magically any less of a player than he was this past year? not at all.


my point: great players can be on unsuccessful teams. just because a team sucks doesn't mean that player does too. the cavs had so little talent around kyrie last year that it's foolish to use their record to knock him IMO.
If LeBron was a horrible team, that team would still be a playoff team and LeBron would be putting up great numbers.

Dragic and Kemba both have better numbers than Kyrie....not some BS advanced stats, I'm talking about the normal PPG, APG, RPG and FG %.

Chronz
07-04-2013, 07:42 PM
If LeBron was a horrible team, that team would still be a playoff team and LeBron would be putting up great numbers.

Dragic and Kemba both have better numbers than Kyrie....not some BS advanced stats, I'm talking about the normal PPG, APG, RPG and FG %.
Just curious, do you think anyone should care about what you value in statistics over actual statisticians?

Translated this is what I got out of it:
"not some credible advanced stat, I'm talking about the outdated stuff"

I mean, lets pretend you had a point , how are the stats of Dragic/Kemba "better"?

seikou8
07-04-2013, 09:29 PM
If LeBron was a horrible team, that team would still be a playoff team and LeBron would be putting up great numbers.

Dragic and Kemba both have better numbers than Kyrie....not some BS advanced stats, I'm talking about the normal PPG, APG, RPG and FG %.

:facepalm::facepalm:

EAGLES3658
07-04-2013, 09:50 PM
Why is John Wall not on the list but people like Jennings and Lowry are?

ManningToTyree
07-04-2013, 11:54 PM
Kyrie

jimm120
07-05-2013, 12:29 AM
I picked rondo.

But if it's between Kylie and deron, I pick deron. Deron was crap his 1st, 2nd years with the nets. And year 3 started just as bad. But he played well from February and onward. Kylie still has certain flaws in his game.

I would have gone rondo, deron, and Kyrie As the next 3 in that order.

jimm120
07-05-2013, 12:34 AM
Why is John Wall not on the list but people like Jennings and Lowry are?

Yeah. At this point, a host of otherpg need to be added.

Rose
Felton
Calderon
Wall

Etc

Many players. You need to expand the lit for the remaining five

sunsfan88
07-05-2013, 02:59 AM
Just curious, do you think anyone should care about what you value in statistics over actual statisticians?

Translated this is what I got out of it:
"not some credible advanced stat, I'm talking about the outdated stuff"

I mean, lets pretend you had a point , how are the stats of Dragic/Kemba "better"?
PPG, APG, RPG and FG %. Their either better or very close to it.

I'm not trying to say that Dragic and Kemba are top 5 PGs or even top 10 PGs in the NBA. The point is that Kyrie shouldn't be given consideration for top 5 just cause everyone's so hyped up on his cute Uncle Drew videos and cause he has a nice crossover and such. He puts up close to numbers that guys like Dragic and Kemba put up and Dragic and Kemba aren't even top 10 PGs.

If you asked me to choose who I want on my team out of Dragic, Kemba and Kyrie, I'll pick Kyrie every time cause he's young and he has incredible potential. I think Kyrie Irving will one day be the best PG in the NBA.

But this is based on RIGHT NOW and not potential so I don't see how a guy who puts up similar numbers to Dragic and Kemba is considered a top 5 PG.

Chronz
07-06-2013, 07:31 PM
PPG, APG, RPG and FG %. Their either better or very close to it.
Looks like they arent to me...... looks CLEARLY in favor Kyrie. ...... thats the thing about simply giving unscientific opinions on a subject that is meant to be (mostly)devoid of subjectivity. How can you PROVE what you are saying?

Thats all I was getting at, you can understand why some of us would side with actual scientific results over unsubstantiated opinions, right?


But this is based on RIGHT NOW and not potential so I don't see how a guy who puts up similar numbers to Dragic and Kemba is considered a top 5 PG.
What if someone isn't convinced the numbers are even close? What if that someone is a statistician... how do you convince him otherwise?

Obviously you would drop the stats argument right? You would have to focus on things the stats arent picking up on, like his hideous defensive awareness.

sunsfan88
07-07-2013, 04:41 AM
Looks like they arent to me...... looks CLEARLY in favor Kyrie. ...... thats the thing about simply giving unscientific opinions on a subject that is meant to be (mostly)devoid of subjectivity. How can you PROVE what you are saying?

Thats all I was getting at, you can understand why some of us would side with actual scientific results over unsubstantiated opinions, right?


What if someone isn't convinced the numbers are even close? What if that someone is a statistician... how do you convince him otherwise?

Obviously you would drop the stats argument right? You would have to focus on things the stats arent picking up on, like his hideous defensive awareness.

I understand what you are saying but I don't get why your picking on me for it.

Are you more upset that I said "I don't care about advanced stats" more than the matter on hand that I didn't think Irving deserved to be top 5 because he had a similar season to PGs Walker and Dragic who both wont and shouldn't even be ranked as top 10 PGs?