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PrinceofSaxony
06-26-2013, 10:21 PM
I know, you clicked on this because it made you laugh out loud or start screaming obscenities. However, I believe Dirk is better than Duncan. I wrote a rather long piece on my blog which I'll provide if someone asks for it but I'll sum up here.

Dirk had a higher combined win shares than Duncan in 9 of their 15 contemporary seasons.

Dirk outplayed Duncan in 28 of their 51 match-ups in the regular season.

Duncan had more success in the post season but I'm a strong believer that players win in the regular season, teams win the postseason. Even then, Dirk took 2 of the 5 head-to-head series, so not domination for Timmy by any standard

Dirk has more all-around offensive game, more range, just as good a passer a more effective floor spacer.

Dirk is a better defensive player than he's given credit for, Duncan has never accumulated 5 or more steals in a game, Dirk reached 6 on a number of occasions and with the exception of Chris Webber no one consistently dominated Dirk. As I relate in my blog, comparing the performances by Webber, Garnett and Rasheed Wallace against Dirk and Duncan during their contemporary careers shows that Duncan was better, but not much better

Duncan is a better rebounder, but again not by the margin usually assumed and Dirk is a "perimeter" forward and compared to others like him (Peja, Mike Miller, Durant, Horry, Bird) he rebounds quite well

In short, I believe the Duncan worship is overstated and leaves Dirk out of a lot of conversations he belongs in

Greatest PF's should be Malone-Barkley-DIRK-Duncan-McHale (assuming Bird is a 3)

Fire away :box:

rhino17
06-26-2013, 10:35 PM
I think Dirk all-time should be ranked a lot higher than most people rank him, but he is def not better than Duncan

JordansBulls
06-27-2013, 12:20 AM
I think Dirk all-time should be ranked a lot higher than most people rank him, but he is def not better than Duncan

:clap:

todu82
06-27-2013, 12:38 PM
Dirk's a great player and all but he's nowhere close to the level of a Tim Duncan.

JordansBulls
06-28-2013, 11:46 PM
Both players led franchises that never won into a title though. Duncan just did so multiple times.

PrinceofSaxony
06-29-2013, 01:53 PM
Both players led franchises that never won into a title though. Duncan just did so multiple times.

Yeah, Duncan is definitely a better "winner" but does that make him a better "player"? Would you rather have Rasheed Wallace win 1 ring or Charles Barkley with none?

bagwell368
06-29-2013, 03:00 PM
Duncan > Dirk

Win Shares?

How about WS/48 .213 > .209 in favor of Duncan, and he's played his age 35 and 36 season, after Dirk plays his the spread will almost for sure be wider in favor of Duncan.

How about ORtg and DRtg?

Dirk: 117 104
Dunc: 110 095

So Dirk is an elite offensive player (20th all time) and run of the mill defender.
Duncan is an elite defender (2nd all time) and above average/vg offensive player

Steals? Duncan .8 stl/36 not as good as Dirk's .9 (barely). However Duncan's 2.3 blk/36 destroys Dirk's .9 blk/36.

Duncan is a top 7 all time player - perhaps as high as 5, Dirk is somewhere between 18-24 - best case might be 16.

BTW, instead of cherry picking the head to head, let's see all 48 regular season games:

Duncan: 21.8/11.2/3.1 (on .060% better FG%...)
Nowitski: 21.5/08.7/2.5

Playoffs if anything favor Duncan more.... that was a cheap trick buddy.

PrinceofSaxony
06-30-2013, 12:27 AM
Duncan > Dirk

Win Shares?

How about WS/48 .213 > .209 in favor of Duncan, and he's played his age 35 and 36 season, after Dirk plays his the spread will almost for sure be wider in favor of Duncan.

How about ORtg and DRtg?

Dirk: 117 104
Dunc: 110 095

So Dirk is an elite offensive player (20th all time) and run of the mill defender.
Duncan is an elite defender (2nd all time) and above average/vg offensive player

Steals? Duncan .8 stl/36 not as good as Dirk's .9 (barely). However Duncan's 2.3 blk/36 destroys Dirk's .9 blk/36.

Duncan is a top 7 all time player - perhaps as high as 5, Dirk is somewhere between 18-24 - best case might be 16.

BTW, instead of cherry picking the head to head, let's see all 48 regular season games:

Duncan: 21.8/11.2/3.1 (on .060% better FG%...)
Nowitski: 21.5/08.7/2.5

Playoffs if anything favor Duncan more.... that was a cheap trick buddy.

Now there's an argument! Finally, somebody comes back with numbers...

Nowitzki posted a 50-40-90 and a high40s-40-90 back-to-back in the mid '00s, Duncan has only achieved 80% from the free throw line this last year, mostly due to his lessened attempts, and will never come close to 40% from 3 and is for his career only 2% better from the floor (50 to Dirk's 48). Only 6 players have ever posted a 50-40-90 and its no surprise that Dirk is the only 7 footer.

Don't close the book on Dirk either, Duncan's career was trending downward until these last two season where he has experienced an incredible surge in production as Pop has reduced his workload. I expect similar things in Dallas if Cuban can bring in some more help.

I concede that Duncan has performed more consistently over his career than Dirk, but Duncan has performed more consistently over his career than virtually any player not named Michael Jordan. Dirk's peak is way above Duncan's in every offensive category.

As to Duncan's place all-time, Malone was more productive for longer and Barkley was Dirk plus Duncan, and that doesn't bring the centers into the conversation.

b@llhog24
06-30-2013, 04:01 AM
God no. Just no. Like someone said earlier Dirk is underrated in all time discussions but he's not better than Duncan. And it's not close imo.

bagwell368
06-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Dirk's peak is way above Duncan's in every offensive category.

And Duncan's peak and average on D is even better for a defender then Dirk is as an offensive player. Advantage: Duncan

Ducan's performances peak and career for an offensive player are better then Dirk's for a defensive player. Advantage Duncan

How you try and cobble an argument together from those facts I have no idea.


As to Duncan's place all-time, Malone was more productive for longer and Barkley was Dirk plus Duncan, and that doesn't bring the centers into the conversation.

Barkley was a poor defensive player. Offensively he's top 10, but the game is two ways. Barkley and Russell are the two most "one way" players among the top 20. CB won nothing.

Malone has a better argument than Dirk, which is why he ranks higher all time than Drk, but still short of Duncan. His offensive peak was better than Duncan's, but career wise they are pretty close, and defensively as Duncan does to almost every player, he crushes Malone. Malone also won nothing. Duncan proved he could be a top player as a #4 or a #5. Nobody would ever confuse Malone with being a Center. If the NBA called the game properly - Malone losing his ridiculous elbow throwing would have rendered him less effective (perhaps much so), much like Jordan and his traveling. Duncan has no such systematic "cheats" that would hurt him if removed.

Swashcuff
06-30-2013, 12:06 PM
Numbers? Duncan
Leadership? Duncan
Winning? Duncan
Defense? Duncan
Longevity? Duncan
Accolades? Duncan
Intangibles? Duncan
Offense? Dirk

DDynO
06-30-2013, 12:14 PM
I would make an argument defending Duncan, but instead, ill just say this: 2003 Playoffs.

Lakersfan2483
06-30-2013, 06:33 PM
Duncan is clearly better than Dirk. Duncan is the best PF in NBA history. Dirk is in the top 5 to 6 range all time.

PrinceofSaxony
07-01-2013, 12:22 AM
I would make an argument defending Duncan, but instead, ill just say this: 2003 Playoffs.

Dirk '05 Playoffs 26.9/11.6 47% from the floor, lost to Miami in 6 in the worst officiated series in history
Duncan '03 Playoffs 23.0/16.0 47% from the floor, swept the New Jersey Nots

Duncan's '03 was awesome, but it wasn't head and shoulders above Dirk's '05, which I selected because I believe you were saying '03 was Duncan's greatest moment so I countered with what I believe to be Dirk's greatest individual statistical series of moments, i.e. the 50 point explosion in Game 5 of the WCF against Phoenix, and the 37 he dropped on Duncan to knock them out in the Semis

Conclusion: The 2003 playoffs isn't a good argument.

Swashcuff
07-01-2013, 10:23 AM
Dirk '05 Playoffs 26.9/11.6 47% from the floor, lost to Miami in 6 in the worst officiated series in history
Duncan '03 Playoffs 23.0/16.0 47% from the floor, swept the New Jersey Nots

Duncan's '03 was awesome, but it wasn't head and shoulders above Dirk's '05, which I selected because I believe you were saying '03 was Duncan's greatest moment so I countered with what I believe to be Dirk's greatest individual statistical series of moments, i.e. the 50 point explosion in Game 5 of the WCF against Phoenix, and the 37 he dropped on Duncan to knock them out in the Semis

Conclusion: The 2003 playoffs isn't a good argument.

What you should do my dude before ever attempting to make a case for a player, do your homework, learn a thing or two about them and the player you're comparing them to. Learn about their teams, coaches, FOs learn about their background. Then attempt to come back.

1. Dirk didn't make it to the finals in 05, hell he didn't even make it to the WCF. That's 2006.
2. The numbers in which you're are all wrong, completely and holistically so.
3. The Spurs did not sweep the Nets they won in 6.
4. The 03 playoffs is a GREAT argument because with Dirk's inability to play D at anything resembling an above average level he could never do the things Duncan did with his teams.

Here are the real #s

Basic

Player FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK PTS
Tim Duncan 9.1 17.2 0.529 6.5 9.7 0.677 4 11.4 15.4 5.3 0.6 3.3 24.7
Dirk Nowitzki 8.5 18.2 0.468 8.9 10 0.895 2 9.6 11.7 2.9 1.1 0.6 27


Advanced

Player PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Tim Duncan 28.4 0.577 0.529 10.7 28.3 19.8 25.5 0.8 5.8 12.9 26.4 116 92 3.3 2.7 5.9 0.279
Dirk Nowitzki 26.8 0.596 0.495 5.6 28 16.5 12.6 1.4 1.2 8.6 26.9 124 103 3.8 1.6 5.4 0.263


As we already know Dirk is a more potent scorer than TD and more efficient as well, that's a given. What else did Dirk do better than TD? Nothing. TD was a better passer, rebounder, defender (in every aspect from and a MUCH wider gap than the offensive gap between the two) and leader. Sorry but in no way shape or form is Dirk better than TD.

If you still don't want to believe then lastly I'll share their finals #s in those respective years with you.


Player FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK
Tim Duncan 0.495 0.00 0.685 43.8 24.2 17.0 5.3 1.0 5.3
Dirk Nowitzki 0.390 0.25 0.891 43.7 22.8 10.8 2.5 0.7 0

Don't know when you guys will stop blaming the officiating and recognize that Dirk CHOKED and he CHOKED HARD. Dude averaged close to 29 points per game that post season before getting to the finals and when he got there he didn't even average 23 and failed to shoot the ball at at least 40% while being a revolving door on defense. Sorry but that's not going to cut it. Old man Tim Duncan played better this finals than Dirk did in that finals in the prime of his career.

Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Dirk Nowitzki is on all counts and the way you can argue that he isn't a better PF than Dirk is if you argue that he's a C and not a PF and even that would be wrong.

Conclusion: Suck it up and give Duncan his just due he's one of the 10 greatest to ever lace it up.

bagwell368
07-01-2013, 12:06 PM
Now there's an argument! Finally, somebody comes back with numbers...

Nowitzki posted a 50-40-90 and a high40s-40-90 back-to-back in the mid '00s, Duncan has only achieved 80% from the free throw line this last year, mostly due to his lessened attempts, and will never come close to 40% from 3 and is for his career only 2% better from the floor (50 to Dirk's 48). Only 6 players have ever posted a 50-40-90 and its no surprise that Dirk is the only 7 footer.

Don't close the book on Dirk either, Duncan's career was trending downward until these last two season where he has experienced an incredible surge in production as Pop has reduced his workload. I expect similar things in Dallas if Cuban can bring in some more help.

I concede that Duncan has performed more consistently over his career than Dirk, but Duncan has performed more consistently over his career than virtually any player not named Michael Jordan. Dirk's peak is way above Duncan's in every offensive category.

As to Duncan's place all-time, Malone was more productive for longer and Barkley was Dirk plus Duncan, and that doesn't bring the centers into the conversation.

Yeah I came back with numbers, then refuted your nonsense comparisons to Malone and Barkley. Now Swashcuff has buried you ever deeper.

At least if you continue to argue do you mind addressing the questions/facts posed to you? If you keep going with off topic responses which are just restatements of your original post you are going to go from possible intrepid breaker of shibboleths, to a scold that doesn't listen to anyone/address anyone - and PSD has far too many of those already.

PrinceofSaxony
07-01-2013, 04:04 PM
What you should do my dude before ever attempting to make a case for a player, do your homework, learn a thing or two about them and the player you're comparing them to. Learn about their teams, coaches, FOs learn about their background. Then attempt to come back.

I will ignore this, it has no bearing on the discussion. If you'd like to open a thread which we argue about our debate styles then I'm all game.



1. Dirk didn't make it to the finals in 05, hell he didn't even make it to the WCF. That's 2006.

You are correct. I was wrong. Same with the Nets series. Responding at 2 AM after a 10 hour workday was dumb. I am sorry and will double check my facts from now on if you agree to continue this discussion.


2. The numbers in which you're are all wrong, completely and holistically so.

I'm getting my numbers from basketball-reference.com where are you getting yours?


What else did Dirk do better than TD? Nothing. TD was a better passer, rebounder, defender (in every aspect from and a MUCH wider gap than the offensive gap between the two)

As I mentioned before we should be comparing apples with apples. Is Jordan a better player than Duncan? Duncan had more blocks per game and more rebounds per game than Jordan. Duncan was more liked by his teammates, has all the psychological intangibles etc. However, Jordan (and Dirk much less so) is far and above a better scorer. Do not tangent to Jordan's defense, that's not my point. I am saying that suggesting Duncan did "on the block" "anchor of a defense" stuff better than Dirk proves nothing. Dirk rebounds better than any perimeter forward in history Duncan rebounds above average to great compared with other interior forwards, I give Duncan the advantage there because interior forward rebounding is more essential to winning games, but not as large an advantage as you do because Dirk is providing something no one else ever has. Take other perimeter forwards, name the ones with 20-20 games. Its a short list. Then take the ones with 20-20s and 50 point games...you get Dirk.



Don't know when you guys will stop blaming the officiating and recognize that Dirk CHOKED and he CHOKED HARD. Dude averaged close to 29 points per game that post season before getting to the finals and when he got there he didn't even average 23 and failed to shoot the ball at at least 40% while being a revolving door on defense. Sorry but that's not going to cut it.

I do not excuse Dirk for the '06 series. I merely also blame the officiating and credit Dwayne Wade. If Dirk had a slightly better game 6 then the Mavs win, similarly had Duncan scored but one more point this year in Game 6 they would've won. A playoff series is won by a team, not a player.



Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Dirk Nowitzki is on all counts and the way you can argue that he isn't a better PF than Dirk is if you argue that he's a C and not a PF and even that would be wrong.

I don't even go there. If we start arguing about what position a player is we first have to define the position. Dirk vs Duncan is a great example of how "power forward" can mean two different things. If I was the GM I'd probably build around Duncan at C but I'm not and the powers that be didn't.



Conclusion: Suck it up and give Duncan his just due he's one of the 10 greatest to ever lace it up.

20-25 greatest.

PrinceofSaxony
07-01-2013, 04:47 PM
Duncan > Dirk

Win Shares?

How about WS/48 .213 > .209 in favor of Duncan, and he's played his age 35 and 36 season, after Dirk plays his the spread will almost for sure be wider in favor of Duncan.

Insert statement that we shouldn't close the book on Dirk because Duncan has surged these last two years and was trending downward.


How about ORtg and DRtg?

Dirk: 117 104
Dunc: 110 095

So Dirk is an elite offensive player (20th all time) and run of the mill defender.
Duncan is an elite defender (2nd all time) and above average/vg offensive player

So Duncan's D makes him 2 points better per possession? There's no weight for pace of play (until this year San Antonio famously slow) or Duncan's reduced minutes the last several seasons in this statistic. The more 80s I get the less a 0 is going to hurt my average, inversely it takes 4 100s to bring a 0 to 80. Pace matters in a per possession stat. However, I agree his defense is better, but not enough better.


Steals? Duncan .8 stl/36 not as good as Dirk's .9 (barely). However Duncan's 2.3 blk/36 destroys Dirk's .9 blk/36.

Agreed. Mark blocks under Duncan's ledger. Now, how many 3's as Duncan hit? His career attempts is only 3 greater than the number Dirk hit in '99 (154-151) which I would qualify as "destroys"



BTW, instead of cherry picking the head to head, let's see all 48 regular season games:

Duncan: 21.8/11.2/3.1 (on .060% better FG%...)
Nowitski: 21.5/08.7/2.5

? I don't know what these are from? 48 regular season games the Spurs played the Mavs while both players were on the payroll? Enlighten me.


Playoffs if anything favor Duncan more.... that was a cheap trick buddy.

What trick? Every meeting between these 2 in the playoffs was epic. I agree Duncan has performed better over his career in the playoffs but once again the theme remains, Dirk's peak ('06) was better than Duncan's (probably '03 but '99 was similarly beast)

Swashcuff
07-01-2013, 06:18 PM
:laugh2:

So you ignore every single one of the stats that shred your argument to pieces, utterly comedic but hey I'll play along.


I'm getting my numbers from basketball-reference.com where are you getting yours?

You're lying. Could you please link us to where on bbref you get those numbers.

This (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2003&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2006) link discredits anything you have to say there.


As I mentioned before we should be comparing apples with apples. Is Jordan a better player than Duncan? Duncan had more blocks per game and more rebounds per game than Jordan. Duncan was more liked by his teammates, has all the psychological intangibles etc. However, Jordan (and Dirk much less so) is far and above a better scorer. Do not tangent to Jordan's defense, that's not my point. I am saying that suggesting Duncan did "on the block" "anchor of a defense" stuff better than Dirk proves nothing.

:laugh2: So both players are 7 footers who play the same exact position and damn near every time they go up head to head they guard one another but we should ignore the fact that Duncan is a better rebounder, defender and passer because their styles are different? What a rubbish argument. They play the same exact position, all I am doing is pointing out the factual difference which makes Duncan better in damn near every basketballing aspect than Dirk.


Dirk rebounds better than any perimeter forward in history Duncan rebounds above average to great compared with other interior forwards,

What? Perimeter forward? Kevin Love is a "perimeter" forward. He just had a 30 rebound game not too long ago. Being a perimeter forward has nothing to do with being a great rebounder, if that had been then case then Love would be the Andrea Bargnani of rebounds because in the same season that he averaged 5.1 3FG attempts per game he also lead the league in offensive rebounds and ORB%. Hell no Dirk isn't the best rebounding "perimeter" forward in the history of the game that's a complete wrong.


I give Duncan the advantage there because interior forward rebounding is more essential to winning games, but not as large an advantage as you do because Dirk is providing something no one else ever has.

Tim Duncan is one of the 20 greatest rebounders (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=300&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=trb_pct) in the history of the game, perimeter, interior, out of space wherever you wanna go however you wanna slick it Duncan is up there.


Take other perimeter forwards, name the ones with 20-20 games. Its a short list. Then take the ones with 20-20s and 50 point games...you get Dirk.

There was this guy who had 16 such games (including one 30-30 game), he also had a 51 point and 14 rebound game as well and his name isn't Dirk. There is this guy name Larry Bird as well he is as perimeter oriented as they come, he had a 42 point 20 rebound game once, he also scored greater than 50 on numerous occasions. Dirk had just one 20-20 game in his career Duncan had 21.


I do not excuse Dirk for the '06 series. I merely also blame the officiating and credit Dwayne Wade. If Dirk had a slightly better game 6 then the Mavs win, similarly had Duncan scored but one more point this year in Game 6 they would've won. A playoff series is won by a team, not a player.

If? That's your argument? If? If Ray Allen didn't make that 3? Duncan would have a 4th FMVP and 5th title. Wanna use the if argument.

You're absolutely right a series is won by a team not a player but Duncan's two way greatness allowed his inferior teams to play exceedingly greater than Dirk's superior teams. That's Duncan's greatness.


20-25 greatest.

That's the opinion of a man who has proven that he knows not what he speaks when he speaks of Duncan, so I really don't take that seriously.

You want to ignore how much better (and I do mean MUCHHHH better) Tim Duncan is than Dirk defensively because Dirk is a "perimeter" forward, now tell me does that make ANY sense to you? Dirk couldn't guard the perimeter, he couldn't guard the interior (had the length to do so) and played the same position and Duncan, at Jordan could have defended his man (even won a DPOY) what else does Dirk do?

Magic and Bird aren't seen as great defenders (though they were both better than Dirk) but you know what, unlike Dirk they helped their teams in other ways, Bird was a much better rebounder while Magic was slightly worse, Magic was the greatest passer the game has ever seen and one of its greatest leaders, Bird wasn't a bad passer himself.

What does Dirk do at an all time level other than score? If scoring is everything for him then he doesn't set himself aside from the rest. Imagine if all MJ did was score, would he be seen as the damn near unanimous GOAT?

Duncan scored, rebounded, defended, passed and does every single one of the little things that make someone a great basketball player hence him having what is quite possibly the greatest and most accurate nickname in all of pro basketball. Sell to me what Dirk does that can make me ignore all that and think he's better than TD.

Go!

Oh and if you're not going to reply to my entire post, dodge my points and only reply to what you think doesn't make you look bad don't bother replying you're just going to waste everyones time.

tredigs
07-01-2013, 07:12 PM
Literally stopped reading at "Dirk is a better defender than he is given credit for" followed by particular single game steal #'s. Duncan's defensive presence is the difference between the two, and it is a MASSIVE difference.

bagwell368
07-01-2013, 08:31 PM
20-25 greatest.

Ridiculous. Not only top 10, probably top 7.

bagwell368
07-01-2013, 08:42 PM
I agree his defense is better, but not enough better.

So you know your way around stats - great. Anyone that's got good experience as a player/coach/fan like me can watch these two over a few hours every few years of their career and conclude that Duncan >>> Dirk on defense.

Taken as PF's, Duncan is #1, and Dirk is no better than 5th, who outside of you even attempts to push this nonsense?


? I don't know what these are from? 48 regular season games the Spurs played the Mavs while both players were on the payroll? Enlighten me.

Regular season head to head career wise. See basketball-reference "Head-to-head".


What trick?

Mentioning games that in your opinion favored Dirk over Duncan, w/o mentioning that Duncan has Dirk head to head on average - regular season and playoffs.


Every meeting between these 2 in the playoffs was epic. I agree Duncan has performed better over his career in the playoffs but once again the theme remains, Dirk's peak ('06) was better than Duncan's (probably '03 but '99 was similarly beast)

Career value is decided by career long averages and peak performances. Nobody disputes that Dirk has been a more incendiary offensive player in his 5 year prime than Duncan. But Duncan's peak on D is essentially his entire career minus 3-4 years - what's Dirk got vs that?

JordansBulls
07-01-2013, 08:57 PM
Yeah, Duncan is definitely a better "winner" but does that make him a better "player"? Would you rather have Rasheed Wallace win 1 ring or Charles Barkley with none?

Rasheed Wallace wasn't a superstar and sure as hell was never a top 3 player in the league like Barkley was. So that is not comparable. With Duncan and Dirk we are talking about guys who regularly were top 3 players in the league.

PrinceofSaxony
07-02-2013, 10:45 AM
I'm at work on my iPod so this will be short and my last comment for a week or so cuz I'm going to no-Internet land for vacation.

The following players, excluding Dirk, in no particular order, should be listed higher than Timmy:

Certainly:
Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Karl, Chuck, MJ, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Magic, Oscar, Hakeem
Possibly:
Stockton, Moses, Pippen, Isaiah(prolly not though)

I add Dirk putting Timmy at 17 or 18, which is awesome just not top 7?!?!?

Also, how does Bird>Dirk = TD>Dirk because you can't seriously say TD>Bird?

I love this discussion, I dislike the ad hom, by all means refute my arguments, it's not an absolute issue it's an opinion, but why stoop to insults? I find it muddies up the posts and distorts the argument

When I return I'll do my best to address your arguments, some of which are better than others. Till then, stay classy.

mweb08
07-02-2013, 03:33 PM
Duncan has had the 3rd, 13th, 22nd, and 30th best playoff runs according to Kevin Pelton's system, and the 3rd and 11th best Finals according to Hollinger.

While I agree that just counting titles is unfair, Duncan certainly has a big edge in playoff performance and is a huge reason for their success over the years. Also look at that '03 Spurs team; it wasn't particularly good other than Tim.

Defense is the other big difference between these two imo. Duncan has been one of the best defensive players of the past 20 years, while Dirk has just been OK.

WadeKobe
07-02-2013, 05:34 PM
Ridiculous. Not only top 10, probably top 7.

top 5

bagwell368
07-02-2013, 08:17 PM
Certainly:
Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Karl, Chuck, MJ, Bird, LeBron, Kobe, Magic, Oscar, Hakeem
Possibly:
Stockton, Moses, Pippen, Isaiah(prolly not though)

I add Dirk putting Timmy at 17 or 18, which is awesome just not top 7?!?!?

Russell doesn't belong in front of Duncan. Russell was a product of his GM/Coach/team, extract the player, and watch him drop. There are at least 4 teams Russell could have been drafted by and won 1 or 1 titles with. He's out (BTW I saw a good amount of him live). Oscar's peak was excellent (in a very weak era) but his career was short, he latched on to Alcindor for his title. No.

Barkley is laughable in front of TD - the man played no defense. Pippen is even more ridiculous - not top 20. Isaiah has no business in the top 25. Stockton is great, but not as great. Hakeem is at the back of the top 10, TD has him in part because Hakeem faded fairly young.

LeBron has him peak, but LeBron has spit the bit in the playoffs too many times and his longevity isn't there yet. No.

Malone is not better than TD, but he is better than Dirk.

Bird's peak is awesome, but his career is short. He is after TD. Kobe has similar longevity, but is too much the volume shooter and can't tolerate sharing the spotlight, sorry he's after TD too.

Kareem, MJ, are surely ahead of TD. Shaq, Magic and Wilt and TD are close. Worst case TD is sixth.

Duncan at 17/18? You don't have any idea what you are talking about.

DDynO
07-02-2013, 08:23 PM
Dirk '05 Playoffs 26.9/11.6 47% from the floor, lost to Miami in 6 in the worst officiated series in history
Duncan '03 Playoffs 23.0/16.0 47% from the floor, swept the New Jersey Nots

Duncan's '03 was awesome, but it wasn't head and shoulders above Dirk's '05, which I selected because I believe you were saying '03 was Duncan's greatest moment so I countered with what I believe to be Dirk's greatest individual statistical series of moments, i.e. the 50 point explosion in Game 5 of the WCF against Phoenix, and the 37 he dropped on Duncan to knock them out in the Semis

Conclusion: The 2003 playoffs isn't a good argument.

Duncan's 03 is probably the 2nd greatest playoff run behind Jordan's 91. He beat Kobe and Shaq in their prime with nothing on his team. You must mean Dirk in 06? Dirk is a better scorer than Tim. What else does he have on him. He literally does nothing else better than Duncan. Duncan's ability to defend at the highest level for 16 years is a huge plus for him as well. 2003 playoffs isn't a good argument? You gotta learn your history my dude. His 03 run was godly. Considered by many to be the 2nd greatest run behind Jordan's 91. It's a pretty valid argument. He's a top 10 all timer. Would've cracked top 5 if he would've pulled down a 4th finals MVP. Dirk has 1 btw.

HouRealCoach
07-06-2013, 10:12 AM
Dirk isn't even a top 5 PF of all time & Duncan is by far the best