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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft: Buffalo (2) VS Santa Monica (3)



PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 09:02 PM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Buffalo has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.

Rotation:
PG: Magic Johnson (37)/Russell Westbrook (11)
SG: Mitch Richmond (31)/Russell Westbrook (14)/Shane Battier (3)
SF: Gus Johnson (30)/Shane Battier (15)/Kiki Vanderweghe (3)
PF: Chris Webber (37)/Kiki Vanderweghe (11)
C: Artis Gilmore (37)/Tree Rollins (11)


Writeup vs Santa Monica
Offense:

The first advantage I see for us is in the PG spot with Mookie Blaylock guarding Magic Johnson. Mookie, like Mo Cheeks, is a good defender at the PG spot but Magic has 8-9 inches on him and will cause a huge mismatch. We will be using Magic in a lot of postups against Mookie, and Magic will be able to pick apart the Santa Monica defense if they come with double teams with his great vision. I think that Magic could be in for some big scoring outputs against Santa Monica in this series.

Another advantage on the offensive end for us is at the PF spot. Yes, Cowens was a good defender and could be expected to do a solid job on Cwebb, however, they have Amare playing more minutes at the PF spot. We plan on exploiting Amare in any pick and rolls, or isolations where he is guarding Webber. Amare is known for lackluster defense, and we think Webber could be able to torch him from the mid-range area in. If they plan on switching Amar’e to guard Gilmore, we see that as an advantage as well, as Gilmore is the most efficient scorer of all time. Gilmore has 3-4 inches on Amare and would be able to score on him with ease down low.

At shooting guard we believe that Richmond will have the opportunity to get his in his matchup with Sam Jones. Jones wasn’t noted as a great defender so we feel that Richmond will be able to get points off of Magic’s penetration/playmaking, Cwebb’s passing abilities, and even off of isolation.

For Artis, we all know Hakeem is an elite defender and should do fairly well containing him, but we’re still confident that Artis will get his own. Gilmore has a size advantage and should be able to score a decent amount against Hakeem. We don’t expect him to dominate, but we think he can score enough and at an efficient enough rate to help the offense and open things up. Artis actually did well in matchups vs Hakeem, averaging 17.2 ppg. However, the stats are skewed due to Artis being much older in the later matchups where Hakeem took advantage. Gilmore did do his thing against a younger Olajuwon though. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=gilmoar01

Off the bench we think Russell Westbrook could have a big impact. We don’t really see a defender for someone of Russell’s quickness and explosiveness. If they have Roy guarding Russell, Roy will be in for a tough matchup. He does not have the quicks to keep up with Westbrook.

Defense:
Obviously the main focuses for us are Durant and Hakeem. Now a player of Durant’s caliber cannot be shut down, but we definitely have the guys that will make life tough for him. Gus Johnson was known as a very physical, brute defender and he will be able to use his strength to push KD off his sweet-spots and wear him down somewhat.


“Gus was quick enough and strong enough and smart enough to move into a driving lane a step before his opponent. He used his strong hands to keep shooters at bay.
Encountering an immovable object in Gus, a dribbler had only two choices—pass to a teammate or alter the angle of his drive. The latter was the sucker’s bet, for a player rising off the floor at anything less than an optimal angle would invariably find Gus in mid air, a good foot or two above him, waiting to devour the shot. After a while, enemy dribblers simply stopped trying to drive on him. Remarkably, when Gus made the jump to the NBA, the pros came to the same conclusion. Beating Gus to the basket was next to impossible.”

Now obviously this doesn’t mean he will put Durant on lock, but his strength should give KD at least some problems while trying to work his offense. Coming off the bench we also have Shane Battier who is also one of the elite on-ball defenders of his era. Battier isn’t as physical as Gus, but he is probably a better shot contester with his unorthodox “hand-in-face” style and is also a very savvy and can draw offensive fouls. Durant will be getting 2 different types of defenders on him to give him different looks, and catch him off-guard throughout this series.

Like Durant, Hakeem isn’t a guy that can be shut down throughout a series, but again, we have the trees to give Olajuwon some problems. Hakeem will have 7’2 Artis Gilmore as a primary defender, and off the bench we have 7’1 Tree Rollins that will see some time on him as well. Both our Centers are known to be great interior defenders and with their size and shot blocking ability, should be able to give Hakeem some trouble in the low-post. We will double Hakeem off of Mookie on about a ¼ of his postups to give him different looks. With Magic coming to double, that is another 6’9 player attacking the ball, and making it difficult to find outside shooters. We’ll also double him with CWebb a bit because we don’t think Cowens can hurt us all that much in those limited scenarios. With Gilmore attacking Hakeem on the offensive and defensive ends, we think he can wear down Hakeem a bit with his size as this series furthers.

Sam Jones will also see some of the Battier-Johnson tandem as well, and could possibly see a bit of Westbrook as well. Battier and Johnson will give more trouble to Jones than to Durant because of his lack of size to shoot over these taller and more physical defenders. We love our wing defenders’ chances against Jones.

We don’t anticipate Mookie and Cowens being huge offensive factors. They will have their roles, but we don’t see them as big threats on the offensive end. With Jones, Hakeem, and KD, these guys likely won’t score much, and Cowens isn’t very efficient anyways in his scoring

Amare Stoudemire is a concern as well, but we don’t think he can have as huge an impact, as he doesn’t have an elite playmaker setting him up on his Pick and rolls/pops. Amare definitely has a face-up game and will be able to score a lot in certain spots, however his offensive arsenal won’t be fully maximized without a great passer for him.

Overall, I feel that these 2 teams are VERY evenly matched, but I think we have more counters for their weapons than they have for ours, and with the offensive balance Buffalo has, we should be able to attack them from all angles and eventually pick them apart as the series goes along with Magic at the helm.


Congrats to Buffalo. One of my favorite teams in the redraft, but their road ends here.

What we want you to know:
Depth Chart
C: Hakeem Olajuwon (40) || Dave Cowens (8) || Manute Bol
PF: Dave Cowens- (30) || Amare Stoudemire (18)
SF: Kevin Durant (40) || Brandon Roy (8)
SG: Sam Jones (30) ||Brandon Roy (18) || Otis Birdsong
PG: Mookie Blaylock (20) || Doug Christie (18) || Nate McMillan (10) || Nate McMillan

3 MVP Awards
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
29 All NBA team Awards
24 All NBA Defensive awards

Offensive philosophy:
This series is where we will look to Jones, Durant and Roy will all shine on the offensive end of the floor. We want them to attack their defenders and be in constant PnR with Hakeem and Amare when he’s on the floor. Gus Johnson has a serious height disadvantage being 6’6 and a primarily a post player from the 60’s. Johnson was an exceptional athlete for his time, but he never came close to defending someone like Durant on the perimeter. He will be out of his element trying to defend the huge length of Durant. Mitch was a great offensive player, but the guy was an open door when trying to play D. We feel both Jones and Roy can exploit his defensive weakness to a great extent. Their penetration from the perimeter will in turn open up Hakeem to favorable 1on1 match-ups against Gilmore. We feel at a huge advantage any time Hakeem is in a 1 on 1 situation.

Defensive philosophy:
This team is 100% counting on Magic to make things go, as they should. So to combat this, we’re going to play an incredibly tight, physical, and pressure based defense on the perimeter against the Buffalo guards. They will not see an inch of daylight to shoot or look to create for others. We are comfortable with penetration, with having 2 of the greatest help defenders of all time, (Hakeem and Dave Cowens) waiting at the rim to pick up penetration. We will get more into how we will attack Magic later, but the goal is to give no room on the perimeter and trust penetration to be shut out by the best post defense in the redraft and 2 of the best help defenders ever.

PG: Mookie Blaylock/ Doug Christie/Nate McMillan VS Magic Johnson/Russell Westbrook
Obviously, this match-up is in favor of Buffalo. Magic is a consensus top 5 player of all time on any list. However, with our 12 All Defensive awards, we are going to make Magic work for every single step he takes on the floor. Mookie may “start” this game, but we will be cycling between these 3 defenders on Magic throughout the entire game. Our PG trio will be picking up Magic the full-length of the floor and playing pressure defense every second he is on the floor. We don’t expect to stop Magic, as it’s an impossible task to ask of any defender, but we will do our damn best to make him have to work on offense and not be comfortable at any point he is in the game. As far as the offense goes, the PG position is used as a floor spacing for our team. Luckily, all 3 guys are comfortable as spot-up 3pt shooters and can fill that role very well.

SG: Sam Jones || Brandon Roy VS Mitch Richmond || Russell Westbrook
A match-up of 2 offensive minded SG’s going at it. However, I trust Roy and Jones to play better defense than the Rock, a notoriously bad defender. We will not be giving the Rock any space to shoot on the perimeter, he will have pressure the entire game. We will focus on dumping him into the waiting arms of Hakeem or Cowens after he penetrates. Jones and Roy will be crucial to our offense this series and we feel they can take have an incredibly strong scoring series and be major factors.

SF: Kevin Durant || Brandon Roy VS Gus Johnson || Shane Battier
This is a match-up we really feel we can exploit to a great extent. There’s no denying Johnson was a great athlete for the 60’s, but we don’t think he stands any sort of a chance VS Durant in this series. Durant’s size, length, and athleticism will have Johnson beyond frustrated this series and we will exploit that advantage every chance we get. Durant will be our lead option in this series and we want him involved with him and Hakeem PnR’s every chance we get.

PF: Dave Cowens || Amare Stoudemire VS Chris Webber || Kiki Vanderweighe
We love this match-up as it’s filled with physicality, offense, rebounding, great passing from a big man, and great athleticism. Cowens and Webb are very similar players; Great passers, had a lethal mid-range shot, and very physical on the boards. Webb is very important for Buffalo’s success and we feel Cowens has a great opportunity to limit his effectiveness in all aspects. As a former MVP and one of the most impactful players of the 70’s, we feel very comfortable with Cowens defending Webb in the high-post while still being able to bang with him in the low-post. The bench match-up between Amare and Kiki is also significant; Amare should and would be able to abuse the out of position Vanderweighe.

C: Hakeem Olajuwon || Dave Cowens VS Artis Gilmore || Tree Rollins
Another advantage for Santa Monica. While Artis is certainly a great C, he was a significantly different player when he came to the NBA. In Gilmore’s entire 12 year NBA career, he made 6 All-star teams and 1 All defensive 2nd team. While those are nothing to sneeze at, we question his true ability to be able to contain Hakeem’s offensive skill set. He wasn't near the same player in the NBA as he was in the NBA. Not even close. There’s no doubt this would be a physical match-up and Gilmore would be able to get some looks over Hakeem. However, Hakeem is the superior talent in all aspects and his playoff acumen to rise against other dominant bigs will show its head in this series. Hakeem will be involved offensively as he always is and look to attack Gilmore head on.

Conclusion:
Buffalo is a great team and should be commended for their work. However, they just don’t not have the pieces to win this series. The only match-up advantage they have is Magic at PG. While that’s certainly a nice advantage we have 12 All- Defensive awards and 3 different players to constantly rotate in against him. He will work every offensive possession. Defensively, we have the advantage as well with the best post defense in the redraft incredible team defense, and physical defenders on the outside who can be relied upon to be pressure on ball-handlers. This would be a strong, gritty series, but we feel Santa Monica wins this in Game 7 on the back of Hakeem and Durant.

Killerjug
06-25-2013, 09:24 PM
this one is going to be fun

The_Jamal
06-25-2013, 09:26 PM
Few Things:

Cowens is getting 30 MPG

Mookie is platooning with Christie and McMillan.Magic will see an onslaught of physical defenders with size the entire game and the entire series

For starters, H-H match-ups are incredibly stupid, and even if they weren't, we're talking about Baby Hakeem VS old Artis. Hardly a fair representation of either player.

The SG position is evenly matched offensively, but the Rock was a horrid defender. I trust Jones+Roy defense hell of a lot more than I trust his. Especially with us not giving the Rock an inch of space, his range will be limited. The focus of our defense is to tunnel penetration straight into the best post defense in the redraft. Magic and the Rock will not have time or the space to calmly set up plays.

The_Jamal
06-25-2013, 09:29 PM
Also, I don't see Gilmore slowing down Hakeem all too much. Gilmore went from an all-time great C in the ABA to an all-star yes, but not near the same caliber of player. Hakeem has a good advantage on him on both ends of the floor.

Ebbs
06-25-2013, 11:03 PM
I thought Jamal right away but damn harder now

Rivera
06-25-2013, 11:14 PM
Buffalo is so loaded

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 12:45 AM
Few Things:

Cowens is getting 30 MPG
I know, but for those PF mins Webber and Stat will be matched up and Webber should be able to score on him easily at that time.


Mookie is platooning with Christie and McMillan.Magic will see an onslaught of physical defenders with size the entire game and the entire series
all of them are much smaller than Magic. Yes they're all good defenders but Magic will be able to abuse them on postups like I mentioned.


For starters, H-H match-ups are incredibly stupid, and even if they weren't, we're talking about Baby Hakeem VS old Artis. Hardly a fair representation of either player.
I said they were skewed in the write up. That's just for people to get the idea that Hakeem wouldn't complete eviscerate Artis on both ends.


The SG position is evenly matched offensively, but the Rock was a horrid defender. I trust Jones+Roy defense hell of a lot more than I trust his. Especially with us not giving the Rock an inch of space, his range will be limited. The focus of our defense is to tunnel penetration straight into the best post defense in the redraft. Magic and the Rock will not have time or the space to calmly set up plays.
I already mentioned Battier and Gus guarding your wing players as well. And if you just play tight on Rock all game with mediocre/bad defenders (not sure about Jones but I haven't read anything about him being a stopper), that exposes them to drive-bys/pull-ups. Rock wasn't just a stand still shooter, and he doesn't have to drive into Hakeem and risk getting blocked...he could pull up from mid-range. You're not just gonna get away with pressuring my guards, especially Westbrook who'll easily blow by anyone that tries that ****. If you're funneling everything to Hakeem, you don't think he can be prone to foul trouble with Westbrook slashing? because I think that's possible. Playing tight on my guards all game sure as hell wouldn't put them on lock.


Also, I don't see Gilmore slowing down Hakeem all too much. Gilmore went from an all-time great C in the ABA to an all-star yes, but not near the same caliber of player. Hakeem has a good advantage on him on both ends of the floor.

I know I don't expect him to shut Hakeem down. Just do a respectable job and challenge on both ends. Hakeem is better but I think Gilmore would do well.

Killerjug
06-26-2013, 09:21 AM
bump

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 10:50 AM
bump

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 02:30 PM
bump again

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 02:34 PM
Amare would have just as much success VS Webb as Webb would have against him. Also, Kiki is out of positon and Amare would abuse him.

Not only Hakeem, but Cowens in the post. We have 2 all-time great team/help defenders that would totally shut out penetration into the post. Both guys are extremely mobile and would have no problems defending the mid-range game as well. It's not like they'd just stayed glued to the paint and let you get free mid-range shots all game. Their ability to roam and slow penetration would really stifle what your main offensive plan would be

Your perimeter D is far weaker than mine is. The Rock was a notriously horrible defender. He would struggle with Jones and Roy for sure. And While Johnson was ahead of his time athletically, how can you expect him to slow one of the toughest covers in NBA history? Durant goes huge in this series and we don't see Battier or Johnson bother.

I still don't see how Hakeem would be bothered by Gilmore. Hakeem was famous for dominating all-time greats in the playoffs and in H-H match-ups. If he can dominate the likes of Drob and Shaq, I see him having a great series against Gilmore

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 02:47 PM
Amare would have just as much success VS Webb as Webb would have against him. Also, Kiki is out of positon and Amare would abuse him.
Ok, if you're gonna use that logic for Amare vs Cwebb, I can use it for Kiki vs Amare. Kiki would draw him out on the offensive end and could abuse him on the perimeter as well when we go small in that scenario.


Not only Hakeem, but Cowens in the post. We have 2 all-time great team/help defenders that would totally shut out penetration into the post. Both guys are extremely mobile and would have no problems defending the mid-range game as well. It's not like they'd just stayed glued to the paint and let you get free mid-range shots all game. Their ability to roam and slow penetration would really stifle what your main offensive plan would be
Then when they help on the dribble drive/mid-range pullups, that leaves one of my bigs open. That's the dilemma of "playing my guards tight" all game. Your defense won't be able to play tight, help, and recover throughout the entire game. It isn't realistic...you have to give up something. You said you'd press Magic, I'd love that actually, because he can beat those smaller defenders and when help comes he can make the easy play to a big.


Your perimeter D is far weaker than mine is. The Rock was a notriously horrible defender. He would struggle with Jones and Roy for sure. And While Johnson was ahead of his time athletically, how can you expect him to slow one of the toughest covers in NBA history? Durant goes huge in this series and we don't see Battier or Johnson bother.
Your PG defense is better than mine, but on the wings it isn't far superior at all. All you really have is Christie as a stopper there, while we have Battier and Johnson. I already admitted that you can't shut out Durant in a series, but we think we can bother him and make it somewhat difficult.


I still don't see how Hakeem would be bothered by Gilmore. Hakeem was famous for dominating all-time greats in the playoffs and in H-H match-ups. If he can dominate the likes of Drob and Shaq, I see him having a great series against Gilmore
Same thing I said before, and same argument I made against Durant. Hakeem won't be shut down, but we think we have the bigs that can somewhat bother him with size, length, shot blocking.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 03:15 PM
Gilmore would stand no chance vs Hakeem

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 04:00 PM
Roy, Christie, McMillan are all superior to what you have. Not to mention, Durant has been MUCH improved defensively on the perimeter

And yea, Hakeem isn't getting enough credit over Gilmore. Gilmore was a good 2-way C, but he's not near of the calib

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 04:09 PM
Gilmore would stand no chance vs Hakeem
I've admitted they have that matchup

Roy, Christie, McMillan are all superior to what you have. Not to mention, Durant has been MUCH improved defensively on the perimeter

Roy isn't a threat on defense, and you said the other 2 guys are guarding Magic, which frees up my wing players. You're PG defense is better than mine, but on the wings I don't think so.

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 04:16 PM
I've admitted they have that matchup


Roy isn't a threat on defense, and you said the other 2 guys are guarding Magic, which frees up my wing players. You're PG defense is better than mine, but on the wings I don't think so.

Well, there's obvious stuff that u can't account for in a write-up. If we needed more perimeter D, we can turn to Christie or McMillan as a wing defender. That's an in-game situation. The "Plan" is to use those 3 against Magic, but we can obviously make adjustments. You don't have that defensive flexibility

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 04:20 PM
I still have that versatility I can turn to if need be. Just because the "plan: is to use Christie and Mcmillan on Magic doesn't mean I can't Turn Christie loose on the Rock if need be. You don't have the flexibility

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 04:31 PM
U have that versatility but I don't think it matters much against Magic and Westbrook. Magic is just too big and Westy too fast. Any of those guys guarding Magic is a big mismatch.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 04:35 PM
Christie could do a good job for the few mins he's on Rock, but I'm not buying Jones and Roy flustering him on the defensive end. I think Rock can beat that pretty easily

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 04:48 PM
U have that versatility but I don't think it matters much against Magic and Westbrook. Magic is just too big and Westy too fast. Any of those guys guarding Magic is a big mismatch.

I concur. Im talking more about shutting down the Rock than Magic. We're just hoping to tire Magic out and force him into mistakes with our pressure D.

Even so, Magic is the one advantage you have in this series. Durant and Hakeem are equally big advantages for Santa Monica. And to me, since Magic isn't a "scorer", Durant and Hakeem being able to go off is much more important.

PocketKings
06-26-2013, 07:01 PM
I intended to vote for Santa Monica before realizing I voted for Buffalo, but man, the more I think about this match-up the more inflicted I am with doubt.

It's like I really don't know.

Like as of right now I think I should ask the moderators to change my vote to SM, but at the same time, I'm not confident enough to state it.

i'm torn.

i hate you all.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 07:40 PM
And yea, Hakeem isn't getting enough credit over Gilmore. Gilmore was a good 2-way C, but he's not near of the calib

Not sure how true that is. I know he was strong and could jump, but was he nimble? I get the feeling an agile guy like Dream would abuse him. I got limited insight on him however.

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 08:30 PM
Anyone voting the way they are care to say why?

Eagles4Lyfe
06-26-2013, 08:34 PM
I'm a huge Magic fan and know a diehard Magic fan at work that's taught me a lot about him and sent me some videos of him from the day and the versatility of Magic IMO is the biggest deciding factor for me.
Lakers won a title with him playing practically every position and he defended it well to boot.

I also have a hard time seeing how Durant fares as an all time player, he's just to big of a question for me to go along with Magic is what did it for me, if that helps.

Eagles4Lyfe
06-26-2013, 08:35 PM
Also love the floor spacing+ shooting on Buffalo.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 09:12 PM
Anyone voting the way they are care to say why?
I remember there being 5-6 pages of good discussion in these matchups back when I first started. Not nearly as much discussion and votes as there used to be....

Mr. Baller
06-26-2013, 09:19 PM
All times always have low votes

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 09:45 PM
All times always have low votes
I remember my matchupp with kob having alot

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 11:15 PM
Official count 14-12. Bloomis is <100 posts

The_Jamal
06-27-2013, 04:08 PM
17-13 Santa Monica

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2013, 09:04 PM
Another ****in early exit in oone of these. I can bear this one because I always felt SM was the best team in this but this is getting annoying.