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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft: Vancouver (1) VS Mos Eisley (5)



PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 08:51 PM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Vancouver has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.


C: Moses Malone (40) | Larry Nance (8) | Jeff Ruland
PF: Shawn Kemp (35) | Larry Nance (13) | Kermit Washington
SF: Dale Ellis (31) | Paul George (10) | Michael Finley (7)
SG: Dwyane Wade (39) | Michael Finley (9)
PG: Lenny Wilkens (30) | Gilbert Arenas (18) | Darrell Armstrong

I’d like to start off by congratulating Chronz for doing a great job as a rookie GM, getting past the first round and assembling a very solid team. However, the team is just that: very solid. And going up against elite talent, “very solid” isn’t enough to advance to the second round.
This Vancouver team is arguably the best offensive squad in the game. Running the offense is PG Lenny Wilkens who is adept at creating for his teammates. His backcourt mate is the ultra-aggressive Dwyane Wade. Together, they form one of the best passing backcourts in the game. Spreading the floor at SF is Dale Ellis, who shot an absurd 42% from three point land in his prime. At PF we have renowned badass Shawn Kemp. This guy is one of the strongest and athletic two-way PF’s to play the game and he brings the intensity every night. Capping off the starting five is one of the best centers of all time, Moses Malone. Moses in his prime was a dominant force on both ends and was renowned for destroying Kareem Abdul Jabar in the NBA Finals.
The firepower of our starting five as well as our bench will be too much for Mos Eisley to handle in a seven game series. Onto the matchups:

PG Matchup: Lenny Wilkens vs. Gary Payton
Wilkens in his prime was consistently top 2 in the league in assists per game and was scoring 18.5 points per game. He was adept at getting to the line and was one of the best passers of his era. With Chet Walker likely on Wilkens in this series, Wilkens will have no trouble running this offense and getting himself and his teammates open looks. On defense, we will be putting Dwyane Wade on Gary Payton to disrupt Mos Eisley’s offensive flow. Wade has the strength and size to body Payton up and give him fits in a seven game series.
Advantage: Mos Eisley

SG Matchup: Dwyane Wade vs. Chet Walker
This matchup is more like Wade versus Payton because Payton will be guarding Wade for most of the series. Wade in his prime was getting to the line 9-11 times per game and was especially good at getting the opposing team in foul trouble. Payton is a great on ball defender, there’s no denying that. This is a classic offense vs. defense matchup and in this case, I can’t imagine Wade being shut down for an entire series especially with the help surrounding him. If Mos Eisley sends help D, then expect Kemp or Moses to get the offensive board (combined avg of 10 ORB’s per game). More importantly, if Gary is expanding all of this energy guarding Wade on one end, he will get tired and be more prone to careless mistakes.
Advantage: Vancouver

SF Matchup: Dale Ellis vs. Chris Mullin
This is more or less an even matchup. Ellis was not just a three point shooter in his prime. He averaged 26 points per game and sported a great 58% TS% during that time. He’s one of the best shooters of all time and provides great spacing for this squad. He will be punishing Mos Eisley from deep for doubling down in the post should they decide to do so.
Advantage: Draw

PF Matchup: Shawn Kemp vs. Kevin Garnett
We like this matchup. There’s no doubt that Kevin Garnett is the better player, but Kemp is one of few players that has the athleticism and strength to guard a player of KG’s caliber. Kemp was a monster on the boards and basically a beast. He was a very good help defender, strong man defender, electrifying finisher, and has a solid mid-range shot. He’s a guy who can get the crowd and team going in the matter of seconds. Kemp is extremely mobile and has the size to disrupt KG’s game. Moreover, we will switch Moses onto KG and Kemp onto Thurmond for spurts to allow Kemp to troll the paint. Moses is another guy that would irritate Garnett with his athleticism and strength, as KG relied greatly on his athleticism in his early years.
Advantage: Mos Eisley

C Matchup: Moses Malone vs. Nate Thurmond
Moses remains one of the most underrated players of all time. The man averaged 28 points per game on great efficiency while grabbing 15 boards per game. He was a consistent member of the All-NBA and All-Defensive teams and performed exceptionally well against the best center of all-time, Kareem Abdul-Jabar. There’s no doubt that Thurmond is a great defender. But Malone was a dominant force on offense. He can pull Thurmond away from the hoop and had exceptional handles for a center. More importantly, Thurmond was a terrible offensive weapon. Moses will be able to play a great deal of help defense on penetration. We will voluntarily have Thurmond take outside jumpers.
Huge Advantage: Vancouver

Bench: Arenas/George/Finley/Nance vs. Rose/Harden/McGinnis/Horry/McDyess
Vancouver’s bench brings everything you need. George provides a lanky, quick defender that can guard three positions and disrupt passing lanes. He may even see some time on Payton to try and prevent Mos Eisley from settling into its offense. Finley was a very solid scorer that can come in and drive or shoot from deep. Arenas is a huge wildcard in this series. He’s a great floor spacer, and in his prime he was scoring at will and efficiently (57% TS%). When he gets hot, Mos Eisley is in huge trouble especially when Arenas and Wade are on the floor at the same time. Gary Payton can only guard one player and Rose and Harden are nothing special on defense. Larry Nance provides a perfect backup bigman who put up 20 points and 9 boards in his prime while sporting a 60% TS% and making the All-Defensive 2nd team twice. His prowess as a help defender (2.1 BPG) will be instrumental as he will be patrolling the paint a great deal when he’s guarding Thurmond. This bench has a little bit of everything and meshes very well with the starting lineup.
Advantage: Vancouver

This matchup may seem close on the onset, but realize the trouble that Mos Eisley will have scoring the basketball. Payton and Kevin Garnett never won anything as first options during their primes. Mullin is a nice wing scorer, but his production can easily be matched or exceeded by my third/fourth option in Dale Ellis. Thurmond is a huge liability on the offensive end for them and they don’t have any explosive big men off the bench to give us matchup problems either. Shall Wade have trouble with Payton; there are other options to score. It is extremely unlikely for both Wade and Moses to have off nights at the same time. Should KG or Payton have off nights, the game is basically over for Mos Eisley. They don’t have enough scoring help to beat Vancouver in a seven game series, and that’s why Vancouver advances.


PG Gary Payton (34) / Derrick Rose (14)
SG Chet Walker (30) / James Harden (18) / Woolridge (0)
SF Chris Mullin (30) / George McGinnis (12) / Horry (6)
PF Kevin Garnett (36) / Robert Horry (10) / Antonio McDyess (2)
C Nate Thurmond (32) / Antonio McDyess (10) / Joe Barry Carroll (2)



Offensive Gameplan: Triple Post Offense built around GP, Chet & KG.
With Mullin as the glue.

His team is quick but undersized, we plan to post up whomever Wilkens is guarding. Lenny was a ball hawking defender but that doesn't come into play when you're being posted up by 6"4 Payton or the 6"6 Chet Walker. I anticipate him putting Wade on GP, which means Chet will take on a bigger offensive load than he had in the last series. In his day, Chet was known as a master of the pump fake and supreme 1 on 1 player. He wasn't overly athletic but he had a very diverse bag of tricks to abuse the much smaller Wilkens. Hes more than up for the challenge of supplanting Payton as the secondary scorer if need be. His ahead of his time efficiency and experience running triangle sets is invaluable.

Speaking of the triangle, given KG's skillset its easy to see how he would thrive in this offense but GP gets a bad rap for having "struggled" with it in LA. Firstly, GP was a tremendous post player, so any offense that asks him to post up is going to play to his strengths. Secondly, by the time he was in LA, GP had very little left in the tank and was arguably gassed from having to play so many minutes at such an advanced age (check it, he was LA's most durable player). Prime GP would have done alot more for LA so dont let recent memory fool you.

That said, the GP-KG PnR will be our secondary option, posting up KG will be our 3rd and Chet going 1 on 1 will be the bailout option. Nate and Mullin will play the role of an outlet option capable of hitting the shot, finding the open man or putting it on the deck on closeouts. Overall, while his team has some fine defenders, I see no dominant anchor to truly disrupt my offense.


Defensive Gameplan: (65%) Sag Man Defense / 35% Matchup Zone

A backcourt of Lenny+Wade is blindingly fast, so much that our team will forfeit crashing the glass on offense in hopes of slowing down the transition game of Wilkens, Wade and Kemp. Once in the half court the matchups are as follows:

Chet Walker on Lenny WIlkens
Gary Payton on D-Wade
Mullin on Ellis
KG on Kemp
Nate Thurmond on Moses



Despite the fact that Lenny Wilkens is a pure PG we expect Wade to carry most most of the ballhandling duties. When Wade does have the ball, look for Chet to completely ignore Wilkens as we do not fear his shooting ability. Ditto for Wade when Wilkens has the ball, only not to the same degree as we have to honor Wade's off the ball cutting ability. We plan on crowding Wade but admittedly will only be able to completely ignore 1 of his outlet options. As such we will rely on a matchup zone if Wade gets too comfortable, hoping that Moses


Pick and Roll between Wade and Kemp is likely to be a staple of the Vancouver offense, well you couldn't ask for 2 better players than the DPOY duo of GP & KG to combat that. Afterall KG won his DPOY largely by excelling at team defense and being the best hedge and recover guy in the game so dont expect us to trap on any screen play, we dont want to risk the 3 on 4 coverage or risk Wade splitting the trap altogether. Instead we will hedge high hoping KG can buy GP enough time to recover and get back on Wade's hip. To alternate the coverage, we will also sag back and see if Wade can hit any off the dribble jumpers.


More than anything, Moses made his money by dominating the glass, that job will be alot harder to accomplish with KG+Nate battling with he and Kemp underneath, none-the-less, we expect Moses to get his share of putbacks but a key weakness Moses had was that he suffered from tunnel vision. If they plan on posting him up, even though we feel Nate can check him 1 on 1, we plan on mixing it up, doubling down half the time, hoping to force turnovers. The only elite kickout option Moses will have on those doubles is to Dale Ellis/Finley so the help will never come from that angle. While Wade is great at cutting off the ball, we do not think Moses can consistently find him for that kind of opening.


Series Thoughts:
I feel we have the ability to post up several of their players, because of the rule that forces us to play our 60's player for 30 minutes, this means Lenny is going to get pounded for 30 hard minutes at the least. In terms of team shooting ability, I feel we have the better shooting team, so if he decides to double more than us (which he should considering we dont have the liabilities he does) we will make him pay.

The only way we lose, is if Wade has one of those series where his jumper is on for 4 games and gets a parade of free throws in the process.

In short, I can throw some of the best individual+team defenders at his best players while exploiting his biggest weakness on the other end. The best thing hes got going for him is having D-Wade.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 12:37 AM
Question.. What makes you think Mullin and Ellis are a draw? Nut saying I disagree just yet but got any insight?

If you have the better bench, why so scared to utilize it more than just sparingly?

Also, Nate has locked down players more imposing than Moses. Speaking of which, you said he was a perennial all lg defender but off the top of my head im pretty sure thats wrong.

KG and GP (Nate too had they invented these awards) would be examples of perennial all lg defenders . In fact I think KG + Payton have more DPOYs between them than Moses has defensive selections.

You also say Lenny will run the offense with ease but might I ask what kind of offense you intend on running?

Killerjug
06-26-2013, 09:21 AM
bump

roshan3ai
06-26-2013, 12:16 PM
Question.. What makes you think Mullin and Ellis are a draw? Nut saying I disagree just yet but got any insight?

If you have the better bench, why so scared to utilize it more than just sparingly?

Also, Nate has locked down players more imposing than Moses. Speaking of which, you said he was a perennial all lg defender but off the top of my head im pretty sure thats wrong.

KG and GP (Nate too had they invented these awards) would be examples of perennial all lg defenders . In fact I think KG + Payton have more DPOYs between them than Moses has defensive selections.

You also say Lenny will run the offense with ease but might I ask what kind of offense you intend on running?

Mullin and Ellis are a draw because they're both efficient wing scorers who could light it up from deep. Similar stats in their prime. Similar stats in head to head matchups.

Why don't I utilize my bench more? Because it's the playoffs and I want my best players playing most. How often do you see playoff teams run 12 man rotations?

Nate has locked down more imposing players? Did he really "lock down" Kareem? Multiple thirty point games and some huge games when Nate was still in his prime.

Moses has two all defensive teams. So no KG and Payton don't have more DPOY's than Moses has defensive selections.


Also why in the world would I need to double down low? I want Thurmond and his sexy 47% career TS% taking shots as often as possible. We have nice options on Kevin Garnett. Nobody else is going to demand a double team on your squad.

How are you going to keep up against us when we run? You even said we a lightning quick backcourt. If your defenders are crashing the boards, we'll start running. If not, we'll gladly take less offensive possessions for your squad.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 12:52 PM
Mullin and Ellis are a draw because they're both efficient wing scorers who could light it up from deep. Similar stats in their prime. Similar stats in head to head matchups.
Similar? Thoughts on why PEAK TS% has Mullin SUBSTANTIALLY more efficient? On top of being clearly more productive, what you also neglect to mention is that Mullin was more than just a scorer/shooter, he was actually a very effective passer and could put it on the floor, getting to the line or finding open teammates. (Hence the superior TS%/PPP)


Why don't I utilize my bench more? Because it's the playoffs and I want my best players playing most. How often do you see playoff teams run 12 man rotations?
How often do teams have this much talent? I get what your saying but at the same time, I can easily justify playing my bench more than you on the strength of its superiority. I mean, can you explain how you can say I have no explosive big off the bench? Antonio McDyess was a athletic beast. George McGinnis was thought of in the same light as Julius Erving at one point, he can play some small ball 4 alongside Horry.


Nate has locked down more imposing players? Did he really "lock down" Kareem? Multiple thirty point games and some huge games when Nate was still in his prime.
A very vague summation of their encounters to say the least. It wasnt just KAJ, Wilt was held to 12PTS for an entire playoff series IIRC. Wilt won but thats not my point. Nate had that in him to completely lock you up individually. For example, in 1973 Nate Thurmonds Warriors upset Kareems Bucks.

Series Numbers:
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 18.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 40.5 %FG, 47.8 min
Nate Thurmond - 25.4 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 43.4 %FG, 46.0 min

Ill give you a more exhaustive look at how Kareem/Wilt fared vs Nate and everyone else. I wanted to make a thread of it but decided not to rush it just for the game. Ill see what I can scrummage up tho.




Moses has two all defensive teams. So no KG and Payton don't have more DPOY's than Moses has defensive selections.
Damn, I guess tied will have to suffice. You wouldn't see me saying KG and Payton were perennial DPOY winners. Moses wasn't an anchor IMO. Certainly not in the same realm as KG and Nate.



Also why in the world would I need to double down low? I want Thurmond and his sexy 47% career TS% taking shots as often as possible. We have nice options on Kevin Garnett. Nobody else is going to demand a double team on your squad.
Well with Wade on GP, I wont be able to post him up but in what world can 6"1 Lenny Wilkens contain 6"6 Chet Walker without help? Simply put, you plan on single covering the eras preeminent 1 on 1 player who played in the same era with Wilkens and expect to get away with it? Advance metrics have shun light on his (ahead of his time) efficiency, if you're not willing to admit thats going to present some problems then your not being honest with yourself.

And you dont have to double KG, but put it this way. You have nice options to throw 1 on 1 t him, but I have THE BEST Post Defender to throw at you.


How are you going to keep up against us when we run? You even said we a lightning quick backcourt. If your defenders are crashing the boards, we'll start running. If not, we'll gladly take less offensive possessions for your squad.
Im not crashing the boards, I explained that in my write up.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 02:31 PM
bump

knicks=love
06-26-2013, 04:26 PM
bump

jon32
06-26-2013, 04:37 PM
Vancouver barely

roshan3ai
06-26-2013, 04:45 PM
Similar? Thoughts on why PEAK TS% has Mullin SUBSTANTIALLY more efficient? On top of being clearly more productive, what you also neglect to mention is that Mullin was more than just a scorer/shooter, he was actually a very effective passer and could put it on the floor, getting to the line or finding open teammates. (Hence the superior TS%/PPP)
Substantially? guy it's 3% higher. Mullin was a good passer but was prone to more turnovers as well, averaging 3.2 TO's during his prime 3 years. Dale Ellis was also effective at getting to the line, he got there 5.6 times per game. We're not asking Ellis to be a primary playmaker on this team. His job is to space the floor and score the basketball. He's great at both. 42.4% from three point land. 26.2 PPG with a TS% of 58%. All while being a number one option. Expect his percentages to go up with the likes of Lenny and Wade getting him open looks.



How often do teams have this much talent? I get what your saying but at the same time, I can easily justify playing my bench more than you on the strength of its superiority. I mean, can you explain how you can say I have no explosive big off the bench? Antonio McDyess was a athletic beast. George McGinnis was thought of in the same light as Julius Erving at one point, he can play some small ball 4 alongside Horry.

I've heard you use McDyess's defense while on Detroit a couple times. You pick which McDyess you want, can't get the best of both worlds. Do you want athletic McDyess who wasn't as good of a defender or the better defender who wasn't nearly as athletic post-surgery? It would've helped if you put in your prime years. Mcginnis also excelled in the ABA and saw a pretty dramatic decrease in production post merger. I'd rather have my better players play more, I think it's pretty simple. Has nothing to do with you thinking you have a better bench than me.


A very vague summation of their encounters to say the least. It wasnt just KAJ, Wilt was held to 12PTS for an entire playoff series IIRC. Wilt won but thats not my point. Nate had that in him to completely lock you up individually. For example, in 1973 Nate Thurmonds Warriors upset Kareems Bucks.

Series Numbers:
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 18.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 40.5 %FG, 47.8 min
Nate Thurmond - 25.4 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 43.4 %FG, 46.0 min

Ill give you a more exhaustive look at how Kareem/Wilt fared vs Nate and everyone else. I wanted to make a thread of it but decided not to rush it just for the game. Ill see what I can scrummage up tho.

You realize that those stats of Thurmond are from the 1972 playoffs right? Kareem's Bucks took that series in 5. The year that Thurmond's Warriors upset Jabbar's Bucks, Thurmond averaged 15 points per game. Kareem's career playoff record against Thurmond was 10-6 and he averaged a shade below 25 points per game. I don't know where you found those stats with rebounds, assists and FG%, but all I have access to right now is what's available on basketballreference.



Damn, I guess tied will have to suffice. You wouldn't see me saying KG and Payton were perennial DPOY winners. Moses wasn't an anchor IMO. Certainly not in the same realm as KG and Nate.

I'm not arguing that, but they don't need to be because Payton and Nate are nowhere as good as Moses and Wade on offense.


Well with Wade on GP, I wont be able to post him up but in what world can 6"1 Lenny Wilkens contain 6"6 Chet Walker without help? Simply put, you plan on single covering the eras preeminent 1 on 1 player who played in the same era with Wilkens and expect to get away with it? Advance metrics have shun light on his (ahead of his time) efficiency, if you're not willing to admit thats going to present some problems then your not being honest with yourself.

Explain to me why I can't send help? Thurmond on the perimeter taking jumpers? Chet will have just as much trouble staying in front of Wilkens as Wilkens will have with Chet posting him up. Even so, Chet's going to see some Paul George, Michael Finley or even some Gilbert on him. It's gonna depend on how you stagger your minutes. We have no problem putting Wilkens on Rose when Rose is in the game to get Wade on Chet. If Gilbert and Wade are on the floor at the same time then Wade will be on Chet and Arenas will guard Gary. On the contrary are you putting Chet on Arenas? Cause we love that matchup. Arenas was getting to the hole and shooting the lights out in his prime.


And you dont have to double KG, but put it this way. You have nice options to throw 1 on 1 t him, but I have THE BEST Post Defender to throw at you.

Im not crashing the boards, I explained that in my write up.

And that's a plus for us. You guys not crashing the boards means that your second opportunities will be limited.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 07:27 PM
Substantially? guy it's 3% higher. Mullin was a good passer but was prone to more turnovers as well, averaging 3.2 TO's during his prime 3 years. Dale Ellis was also effective at getting to the line, he got there 5.6 times per game. We're not asking Ellis to be a primary playmaker on this team. His job is to space the floor and score the basketball. He's great at both. 42.4% from three point land. 26.2 PPG with a TS% of 58%. All while being a number one option. Expect his percentages to go up with the likes of Lenny and Wade getting him open looks.
You seem to think Im diminishing Ellis, so he got to the line, still not as frequently as Mullin. Turnovers? Offensive Rating accounts for turnovers and still says Mullin is more efficient. Any barometer we can point to, will shine on Mullin. And depending on which years you are selecting, the % is substantial enough to distinguish between the 2. I mean, you're comparing a HOFer to a 1-time All-star? Your crutch of not asking him to be the playmaker doesn't change the fact that he provides everything Ellis does(+better), but that he can make the skip pass in the flow of the offense. Hes played alongside ball dominant players plenty.



I've heard you use McDyess's defense while on Detroit a couple times. You pick which McDyess you want, can't get the best of both worlds. Do you want athletic McDyess who wasn't as good of a defender or the better defender who wasn't nearly as athletic post-surgery? It would've helped if you put in your prime years. Mcginnis also excelled in the ABA and saw a pretty dramatic decrease in production post merger. I'd rather have my better players play more, I think it's pretty simple. Has nothing to do with you thinking you have a better bench than me.

In that case I want athletic McDyess and McGinnis didn't last but even post merger he remained an All-NBA 1st Teamer, and a 2nd Teamer on the team that made the Finals but lets review the rest of the bench.

Arenas/George/Finley/Nance vs Rose/Harden/Horry/Mcdyess/McGinnis?

You have to admit my bench is superior, I boast an NBA and ABA MVP and more productive/ decorated players. Whats the argument against it?



You realize that those stats of Thurmond are from the 1972 playoffs right? Kareem's Bucks took that series in 5. The year that Thurmond's Warriors upset Jabbar's Bucks, Thurmond averaged 15 points per game. Kareem's career playoff record against Thurmond was 10-6 and he averaged a shade below 25 points per game. I don't know where you found those stats with rebounds, assists and FG%, but all I have access to right now is what's available on basketballreference.
Thurmond was from 72, Kareems was from 73 however (though they are similar). And it was the defense and upset victory I was trying to highlight. Still, I did mention it was a quick glance, but it still shows you the range between the battles.

The numbers for the 72 series look like this:

KAJ - 22.8 PPG(40.5 FG%) - 18.4 REB - 5.4 AST
Nate- 25.4 PPG (43.4 FG%) - 17.8 REB - 5.2 AST

KAJ won, but Nate did very well and played him to a statistical draw. This was the year KAJ averaged 35PPG on 58% and he scores 23 on 40%? Thats ridiculous.

In the 73 series the numbers were less impressive but he held Kareem down.

KAJ - 22.8 PPG (42.8 FG%) - 16.2 REB - 2.8 AST
Nate- 13.5 PPG (39.7 FG%) - 9.8 REB - 3.2 AST


KAJ never shot above 50% in any season or playoff series vs Nate. Wilt had his struggles as well.


In Wilts championship year he faced both Bill Russell and Nate.

VS Russ, Wilt averaged 21.6 PPG(56% FG%) - 32.0 REB - 10.0 AST
VS Nate in the Finals:
17.6PPG (56%FG%) - 28.5 REB - 6.8 AST

They met again in 1969 when Wilt was still a 20-20 (58fg%) guy. In the series vs Thurmond he averaged 12.0 PPG (50FG%) - 23.5 REB - 3.0 AST.


Regardless, my point is, KAJ has played against alot of defenders (Hakeem included), and has never complimented them the way he does Nate.
He could check you and rise to the occasion and outplay on certain nights. Its up to the voters if they like his odds vs Moses however.




I'm not arguing that, but they don't need to be because Payton and Nate are nowhere as good as Moses and Wade on offense.
Thats not the argument I was against, just that Moses wasn't some elite defender. Nate isnt a big part of my offense, but hes a tremendous part of my defense. Nate doesn't have to outplay Moses, tho its by no means a stretch to say he can, he simply needs to control Moses.



Explain to me why I can't send help? Thurmond on the perimeter taking jumpers?
I didnt, YOU did. You said:
Also why in the world would I need to double down low?

Now you are asking me why you cant send help?

Thats the point Im making. You are going to have to send help. Doubling off of Nate is your best bet tho. I will say that he had a decent jumpshot, he had a bad touch inside tho. Leaving him open for outlet jumpers will prolly be a 46-48% proposition. Which is less than the ideal 1 point per possession.


Chet will have just as much trouble staying in front of Wilkens as Wilkens will have with Chet posting him up. Even so, Chet's going to see some Paul George, Michael Finley or even some Gilbert on him. It's gonna depend on how you stagger your minutes. We have no problem putting Wilkens on Rose when Rose is in the game to get Wade on Chet. If Gilbert and Wade are on the floor at the same time then Wade will be on Chet and Arenas will guard Gary. On the contrary are you putting Chet on Arenas? Cause we love that matchup. Arenas was getting to the hole and shooting the lights out in his prime.
Your bench figures to play a minor role in this series from the looks of it, Chet will likely only see a few minutes against them considering hes my starter. And if you intend to make this game about Lenny Wilkens vs Chet Walker, then Ive already won half the battle in defending your superior offensive players IMO. Chet is one of the most efficient scorers on my team (particularly if you compare him to his peers). (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2938)

His offensive rating translates to 127.7 in the 2009 environment. Thats like Harden, if Harden was a champion and prolific 1 on 1 player.


And that's a plus for us. You guys not crashing the boards means that your second opportunities will be limited.
Agreed but looking at our roster, you can see why its more important for our defense to impose its will on your offense. You have a liability I can exploit offensively, if I force you into the halfcourt, there is no defensive liability to exploit.

roshan3ai
06-26-2013, 08:12 PM
You seem to think Im diminishing Ellis, so he got to the line, still not as frequently as Mullin. Turnovers? Offensive Rating accounts for turnovers and still says Mullin is more efficient. Any barometer we can point to, will shine on Mullin. And depending on which years you are selecting, the % is substantial enough to distinguish between the 2. I mean, you're comparing a HOFer to a 1-time All-star? Your crutch of not asking him to be the playmaker doesn't change the fact that he provides everything Ellis does(+better), but that he can make the skip pass in the flow of the offense. Hes played alongside ball dominant players plenty.

My argument is that in the roles that they're each in, the production will be more or less equal. I don't think it's as far fetched as you're making it out to be.


In that case I want athletic McDyess and McGinnis didn't last but even post merger he remained an All-NBA 1st Teamer, and a 2nd Teamer on the team that made the Finals but lets review the rest of the bench.

Arenas/George/Finley/Nance vs Rose/Harden/Horry/Mcdyess/McGinnis?

You have to admit my bench is superior, I boast an NBA and ABA MVP and more productive/ decorated players. Whats the argument against it?
Your bench isn't superior. Nance is better than all of your bigs. Arenas and Rose are both scorers but Rose doesn't provide the spacing that Arenas does. And Harden is a better overall player than George and Finley but Finley provides solid spacing and George is an extremely solid defender. The point of a minutes breakdown is also to give an idea, it's never set in stone. If Gilbert is hot I'll play him more, and if Lenny is having trouble I'll try to play him when Rose is in the game. These are matchup adjustments that are impossible to speculate.



Thurmond was from 72, Kareems was from 73 however (though they are similar). And it was the defense and upset victory I was trying to highlight. Still, I did mention it was a quick glance, but it still shows you the range between the battles.

The numbers for the 72 series look like this:

KAJ - 22.8 PPG(40.5 FG%) - 18.4 REB - 5.4 AST
Nate- 25.4 PPG (43.4 FG%) - 17.8 REB - 5.2 AST

KAJ won, but Nate did very well and played him to a statistical draw. This was the year KAJ averaged 35PPG on 58% and he scores 23 on 40%? Thats ridiculous.

In the 73 series the numbers were less impressive but he held Kareem down.

KAJ - 22.8 PPG (42.8 FG%) - 16.2 REB - 2.8 AST
Nate- 13.5 PPG (39.7 FG%) - 9.8 REB - 3.2 AST


KAJ never shot above 50% in any season or playoff series vs Nate. Wilt had his struggles as well.


In Wilts championship year he faced both Bill Russell and Nate.

VS Russ, Wilt averaged 21.6 PPG(56% FG%) - 32.0 REB - 10.0 AST
VS Nate in the Finals:
17.6PPG (56%FG%) - 28.5 REB - 6.8 AST

They met again in 1969 when Wilt was still a 20-20 (58fg%) guy. In the series vs Thurmond he averaged 12.0 PPG (50FG%) - 23.5 REB - 3.0 AST.


Regardless, my point is, KAJ has played against alot of defenders (Hakeem included), and has never complimented them the way he does Nate.
He could check you and rise to the occasion and outplay on certain nights. Its up to the voters if they like his odds vs Moses however.

I'm not arguing that Nate isn't a phenomenal defender. But when you have guys like Kareem and Moses, there is no way that they're being completely shut down. There's chances of being limited sure. Nate's going to give Moses a hard time, I'm not denying that. But with the options we have on this team and the floor spacing, I don't think he can be shut down in a 7 game series.


Thats not the argument I was against, just that Moses wasn't some elite defender. Nate isnt a big part of my offense, but hes a tremendous part of my defense. Nate doesn't have to outplay Moses, tho its by no means a stretch to say he can, he simply needs to control Moses.

Nate is a liability on offense. Same can't be said about Moses on D.


I didnt, YOU did. You said:
Also why in the world would I need to double down low?

Now you are asking me why you cant send help?

Thats the point Im making. You are going to have to send help. Doubling off of Nate is your best bet tho. I will say that he had a decent jumpshot, he had a bad touch inside tho. Leaving him open for outlet jumpers will prolly be a 46-48% proposition. Which is less than the ideal 1 point per possession.

I was moreso referring to sending help on your big men, not on Chet. But yes, if needed we will play off Nate. He's an unbelievably inefficient offensive player.


Your bench figures to play a minor role in this series from the looks of it, Chet will likely only see a few minutes against them considering hes my starter. And if you intend to make this game about Lenny Wilkens vs Chet Walker, then Ive already won half the battle in defending your superior offensive players IMO. Chet is one of the most efficient scorers on my team (particularly if you compare him to his peers). (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2938)

His offensive rating translates to 127.7 in the 2009 environment. Thats like Harden, if Harden was a champion and prolific 1 on 1 player.
With Chet only playing 30 minutes how much is he actually going to "dominate?" Again, there will be in game adjustments. If Chet is abusing Lenny, we'll send help off of Thurmond or get Lenny a lot of his minutes when Rose is in the game, and try to roll with Gilbert at PG versus Chet.


Agreed but looking at our roster, you can see why its more important for our defense to impose its will on your offense. You have a liability I can exploit offensively, if I force you into the halfcourt, there is no defensive liability to exploit.

That liability can also be combatted by sending help off of your offensive liability. Works both ways.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 09:43 PM
My argument is that in the roles that they're each in, the production will be more or less equal. I don't think it's as far fetched as you're making it out to be.
More or less? Sure I can buy that, but I think it gos without saying that Mullin will outperform Ellis considering hes already more effective in a greater role to begin with.



Your bench isn't superior. Nance is better than all of your bigs. Arenas and Rose are both scorers but Rose doesn't provide the spacing that Arenas does. And Harden is a better overall player than George and Finley but Finley provides solid spacing and George is an extremely solid defender. The point of a minutes breakdown is also to give an idea, it's never set in stone. If Gilbert is hot I'll play him more, and if Lenny is having trouble I'll try to play him when Rose is in the game. These are matchup adjustments that are impossible to speculate.
Yea but the point of the minutes breakdown is to emphasize our preferred rotation, it should go without saying that either of us will stick with the best lineup when the game is in the balance.

My bench mob plays together, Rose is always the ball handler so his lack of spacing is less of an issue. Harden is the guy who provides the spacing and secondary PnR option. You can romanticize Gilbert as much as you want but we both know that he and Finley/George cant hang with Prime Rose and Harden. With McDyess as the primary pick setter and finisher at the rim. Nance vs peak McDyess is definitely arguable imo, the statistics favor McDyess but legacy wise, Nance is hard to beat.



I'm not arguing that Nate isn't a phenomenal defender. But when you have guys like Kareem and Moses, there is no way that they're being completely shut down. There's chances of being limited sure. Nate's going to give Moses a hard time, I'm not denying that. But with the options we have on this team and the floor spacing, I don't think he can be shut down in a 7 game series.

KAJ went from a PER of 28.5 to 17.7 . FG% dropped from .554 to .428



Nate is a liability on offense. Same can't be said about Moses on D.
I guess thats what it comes down to. You having Lenny as a defensive liability and me having Nate as a possible liability. An offensive liability can see his touches diminished but a defensive liability needs to be hidden. The way I see it, I have more than enough offensive options to survive 1 offensive liability, but you have nowhere to hide Lenny.


I was moreso referring to sending help on your big men, not on Chet. But yes, if needed we will play off Nate. He's an unbelievably inefficient offensive player.
Agreed, no way around that I suppose but at the same time, its better to have the range than be a liability in the mold of Ben Wallace. Because on this team, Nate wont be putting up 20fga, we have too much talent elsewhere. Who on your team can take a reduced role offensively, yet maintain the dominant skill that made them stars in the first place? Nate is going to be the best defender regardless of how many touches he gets, some would argue the lessened offensive load would help his defensive game.



With Chet only playing 30 minutes how much is he actually going to "dominate?" Again, there will be in game adjustments. If Chet is abusing Lenny, we'll send help off of Thurmond or get Lenny a lot of his minutes when Rose is in the game, and try to roll with Gilbert at PG versus Chet.
Well its pretty simple really, you just have to line up Chet's minutes with Lenny's because there is no way around the 30MPG rule.


That liability can also be combatted by sending help off of your offensive liability. Works both ways.

Its up to the voters to decide whos chess move is best I guess.

roshan3ai
06-26-2013, 10:06 PM
More or less? Sure I can buy that, but I think it gos without saying that Mullin will outperform Ellis considering hes already more effective in a greater role to begin with.

He has a greater role but Ellis will be just as if not more effective in the floor spacing role. Mullin will have more ballhandling and passing duties on your offense whereas Ellis will be mostly a scorer for our squad. In the end, this is not a game changing matchup which is what I've been getting at.


Yea but the point of the minutes breakdown is to emphasize our preferred rotation, it should go without saying that either of us will stick with the best lineup when the game is in the balance.

My bench mob plays together, Rose is always the ball handler so his lack of spacing is less of an issue. Harden is the guy who provides the spacing and secondary PnR option. You can romanticize Gilbert as much as you want but we both know that he and Finley/George cant hang with Prime Rose and Harden. With McDyess as the primary pick setter and finisher at the rim. Nance vs peak McDyess is definitely arguable imo, the statistics favor McDyess but legacy wise, Nance is hard to beat.
Here's a stat for you. 27.5%. That was Harden's FG% against Paul George this year. I think George can hang with him :)


KAJ went from a PER of 28.5 to 17.7 . FG% dropped from .554 to .428

Again. He gave Kareem trouble but still won the head to head matchups. Moses will have the better production in the series even with the


I guess thats what it comes down to. You having Lenny as a defensive liability and me having Nate as a possible liability. An offensive liability can see his touches diminished but a defensive liability needs to be hidden. The way I see it, I have more than enough offensive options to survive 1 offensive liability, but you have nowhere to hide Lenny.

You can limit his touches but you can't limit his matchup sliding off him to help.


Agreed, no way around that I suppose but at the same time, its better to have the range than be a liability in the mold of Ben Wallace. Because on this team, Nate wont be putting up 20fga, we have too much talent elsewhere. Who on your team can take a reduced role offensively, yet maintain the dominant skill that made them stars in the first place? Nate is going to be the best defender regardless of how many touches he gets, some would argue the lessened offensive load would help his defensive game.
Yeah he has range, but we want him to beat us on offense, and that mentality allows help defense to slide to penetrators or help with post-ups.



Well its pretty simple really, you just have to line up Chet's minutes with Lenny's because there is no way around the 30MPG rule.

With us matching Lenny and Rose's minutes, we can plug in George, Finley or Wade on Chet. More than happy with that matchup.


Its up to the voters to decide whos chess move is best I guess.
Pretty much

knicks=love
06-27-2013, 04:02 PM
17-15

Chronz
06-28-2013, 12:30 AM
Should have never given you Moses

roshan3ai
06-28-2013, 08:10 AM
Should have never given you Moses

Hahaha even with that deal you almost won. Nice job especially as a rookie GM.