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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft: Death Star (1) VS Minneapolis (4)



PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 08:33 PM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Death Star has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.



C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (40 mins) | Bill Laimbeer (8) |
PF: Bill Laimbeer (28)| Rick Mahorn (8)| Carmelo Anthony (12) | Tommy Heinsohn (0)
SF: Jerry (http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/743/998/JerrySloan_display_image.jpg) Sloan (http://jazzfanatical.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/jerry.jpg) (30)| Carmelo Anthony (12)| Bruce Bowen (6)
SG: Paul Pierce (28)| Bruce Bowen (20) | Steve Smith (0)
PG: Mark Price (38)| Paul Pierce (10) | Gus Williams | BJ Armstrong (0)

Closing Lineups
Price-Pierce-Carmelo-Laimbeer-Kareem
Price-Bowen-Pierce-Laimbeer-Kareem
Price-Bowen-Pierce-Carmelo-Kareem

We will close with the appropriate lineup depending on how the game is going.

First off, congratulations to KJ and Lucky for making the 2nd round. You guys put a great team together.

We aren’t going waste time talking about how many championships Death Star has (26) or how great we are defensively (25 All-Defensive team awards) or how Death Star has everything you’d want in a championship team (spacing, perimeter D, post D, post O, wing scoring, playmaking, rebounding, clutchness) or how Death Star has tons of assholiness and instead, we’ll get right down to the matchups.

Offensive philosophy:
The strength of Death Star's highly potent offense rests on its combination of elite efficiency, power and versatility. Our starting lineup boasts 2 players who have shot over 40% from three in multiple seasons in Price + Pierce (Price at .402 career being one of the greatest shooters ever). Our opponent has no starters who can claim that. Our bench doesn't let up in that regard with both Bruce Bowen and Melo being highly capable gunners from the perimeter (and Armstrong + Steve Smith should they see action). In order to free them up, one of our most crucial offensive tacts will be realizing our offensive mismatch in the Price + KAJ duo running a flurry of pick and rolls on Minny to exploit one of both Shaq + Cousy's notorious weaknesses (Shaq in getting up + back in a PnR and Cousy's slight nature in fighting through monster screens).

We're happy to be able to be able to mitigate Shaq's low post dominance in the interior (when not shot with Price's accuracy or kicked to our gunners) with Kareem's ridiculously deadly sky hook from up to 12 feet. Our 3pt shooting and fast-break layups in transition are also going to be a major factor as we are both the better rebounding and quicker of the two squads (Laimbeer possessing both speed and a top 1-5 rebounder of the 80's along with KAJ. Melo as a stretch 4 in Laimbeer's space when Shaq is out furthers that approach). Unlike our opponents and their #1 option Shaq, we also constructed a team that they cannot afford to foul, as none of our offensive options shoot less than 70% from the stripe, with our top 5 and closing lineup of Price + Pierce + Melo + Laimbeer + KAJ averaging out at around 84%. Simply put, from post scoring (KAJ) to passing ability (Price + Pierce + KAJ) to the ability to both run as well as stretch the floor from the block (KAJ + Laimbeer) to perimeter shooting (Melo + Bowen + Price + Pierce) to hitting from the stripe (Team), we simply have too many strengths to be contained. Especially by a team whose first line of defense in attempting to battle through our screens from KAJ and the Bad Boy Pistons will be Bob Cousy. Mark Price (a 4 time top-10 MVP candidate though the late 80's/early 90's Golden ERA with elite playmaking skills and one of 6 players ever to post the 50/40/90) alone will put on a shooting clinic off those PnR's that will be tough for them to answer.

Some people also like to point out that Moses Malone - being a more aggressive Center - often got the best of Kareem. What they fail to take into account is that by the time Moses was getting the best of Kareem, KAJ was in his mid 30's while Malone was peaking as a 23-27 yr old who was putting up 28ppg and leading the league in rebounds yearly at around 15 a night. Unfortunately for Shaq and co., he won't be seeing that Kareem. He'll be getting the young Buck version - the player who won 5 MVP's in 6 seasons (robbed of the other) and was leading the league in points, rebounds, blocks and WinShares + PER in any given year as the best player in the league on both sides of the ball; Famously receiving the quote from Wilt Chamberlain proclaiming, "I really needed help to guard Kareem. He is the only guy." And from Dr. J “Bill Russell is the greatest champion but Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest player in the history of the game.”

Prime Pierce battling Lebron and winning in the semiFinals game 7 (putting up 41/4/5 on 58%) en route to his eventual Finals MVP - outdueling Kobe and the Lakers- is another key matchup we like to point to when scouting him versus the (notoriously lazy and despite great play - underachieving) prime T-Mac. When Lebron is asked to state his toughest rival, the answer is always Pierce. Pierce brings it the most when he goes against the best, and we love that about him in this matchup. We have h2h numbers on these two through T-Mac's short peak that bode well for Pierce as well.

Paul Pierce vs. T-Mac
I’ve taken head 2 head matchup stats of Pierce vs. T-Mac and compiled the numbers for various intervals of T-Mac’s career. And because I wanted to be fair to T-Mac, I only included his prime years. I’ve also compiled 4 different intervals of T-Mac’s career: his best season, his best 3 seasons, his best 5 seasons and his entire prime.


Paul Pierce vs. T-Mac
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 51.80% 29.0 8.8 5.3 4 32.24
2000-03 56.94% 25.3 8.0 4.5 12 26.00
2000-05 55.06% 24.0 7.4 5.4 18 25.41
2000-08 55.84% 23.2 6.8 5.2 22 24.11



T-Mac vs. Pierce
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 52.75% 29.5 6.5 4.0 4 30.46
2000-03 53.08% 25.1 6.3 5.0 12 25.96
2000-05 52.34% 25.8 5.9 4.9 18 27.18
2000-08 53.49% 24.8 5.7 5.2 22 25.88

*estimated USG is assuming both teams used 100 possessions, since it's matchup stats, the pace will be the same for both teams

For pretty much all intervals of their career, T-Mac and Pierce have matched up to a draw (though the numbers indicate a slight advantage for Pierce actually). So Death Star can essentially negate or equal T-Mac’s impact with Pierce.

Defensive Philosophy:
First, we’d like to highlight T-Mac’s struggles against Bruce Bowen (8x All-Defensive team), who will exclusively be guarding T-Mac. For the majority of the minutes T-Mac is playing, he’ll be seeing Bowen on him. Here are T-Mac’s numbers vs. Bowen in head to head matchups. Like before, I’ve taken T-Mac’s numbers vs. Bowen in head to head matchups and compiled the numbers for various intervals of T-Mac’s career.


T-Mac vs. Bowen
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 49.27% 32.5 8.5 4.5 2 34.48
2000-03 45.71% 22.0 7.1 2.7 7 26.35
2000-05 46.49% 24.2 6.8 3.4 13 29.14
2000-08 46.67% 23.0 7.0 3.9 20 27.39



As you can see in this table, T-Mac has struggled vs. Bowen, whether it’s over the course of 7 seasons or only his best season in 2002-03. Bowen’s tenacious defense (bordering on dirty) will make life difficult for T-Mac and then combine that with the fact that T-Mac is going to be asked to defend Carmelo or Pierce and he’s going to be expending a ton of energy. Outside of the minutes that Bowen will be guarding T-Mac (which will be the majority), we’ll put Paul Pierce on T-Mac. Pierce is a good defender who has ranked in the top 25% of players in defense via synergy numbers over the last 4 seasons. While Pierce improved as a defender as his career went on, he was still an underrated defender in his early years with his defensive RAPM always above 0 (meaning he made a positive impact on defense).

In regards to Shaq, the Death Star will put Bill Laimbeer on him. While it is impossible to stop Shaq, we feel Laimbeer’s physical and let’s be frank, dirty play will frustrate Shaq. While Death Star doesn’t condone injuring players, Laimbeer will be Laimbeer and he will get under Shaq’s skin. Maybe Shaq is able to control his temper but if he goes after Laimbeer just once, that’s all it takes to swing the game heavily in our favor. In the meantime, if Shaq is able to avoid punching Laimbeer, Death Star will make sure he goes to the line with hard fouls. With 6 fouls from the Bad Boy Piston Rick Mahorn available, Shaq will have to hit free throws at some point. And Death Star isn’t afraid to employ the hack a Shaq strategy. Death Star will also play the Bad Boy duo of Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer for a few minutes, just to get Shaq accustomed to real physical dirty defense which he never had to face in his prime from 2000-2002.

In regards to our strategy of stopping Shaq, Death Star will double team him. Minny’s starting lineup lacks sufficient spacing so when the starters are out there, Death Star will pack the paint. In fact, none of Minny’s starters are above 35% from three over their careers. And Minny’s starters have had only 2 seasons out of all of their starter’s careers’ where they hit over 38%. Of course, one of those seasons happens to be the season that Sikma got ***** slapped (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=laimbbi01&p2=sikmaja01#stats_playoffs) by Bill Laimbeer in the playoffs. Specifically, Death Star will use the rangy, athletic, 7-4’ Kareem (it’s widely known that Kareem lied about his height) as a help defender. Since Sikma doesn’t have a 3 point shot, we believe Kareem can double Shaq and recover quick enough to contest a Sikma jumpshot, which is a lower % shot anyways (mid-range shots are roughly a 40% shot, with it being worth only 2 points makes it the worst shot in the game). Since Kareem (excellent help defender) should be able to contest the shot after double teaming Shaq, having Sikma shoot a somewhat contested jumpers is not going to win Minneapolis the game, especially because Sikma isn’t nearly as automatic from mid-range as say a Mark Price might be.

Finally, while I’m sure Minny will play Hornacek and Peja a ton of minutes, our strategy of double teaming Shaq with Kareem won’t change. Whether it’s Sikma or Bobby Jones at PF, neither player has a 3 point shot and thus will be a bit closer to the basket allowing Kareem enough time to recover and somewhat contest their jump shot. And in both cases, Sikma or Bobby Jones are hardly automatic from mid-range. We aren’t talking about Mark Price here. If Minny thinks they’ll beat Death Star shooting Sikma/Bobby Jones jump shots, good luck. Since both of these players will see all of the time at PF, it means that Kareem will be able to do this the whole game. In the instances that Kareem is guarding Shaq, we will still employ this tactic with whoever the PF is. This also will allow the rest of Death Star’s players to stick to their man.

In regards to Peja and Hornacek, who will undoubtedly see time, we’ll have Sloan on Peja if they are in the game together. While we respect Peja’s shooting ability, we feel that Sloan can stick like glue to Peja with his defensive prowess. Sloan will also see time on Bobby Jones when the starters are in the game.

Is Peja really clutch? Is he really the floor spacer Minny thinks he is at the end of games?


Peja Clutch Playoffs stats
3pt% TS% USG%
2000-01 34.60% 55.70% 23.40%
2001-02 27.10% 49.30% 22.10%
2002-03 45.70% 60.60% 21.40%
2003-04 31.50% 48.80% 19.90%
2004-05 36.70% 59.30% 20.70%
2005-06 0.00%* 52.20% 22.30%
*only 3 attempts


As you can see in this table, Peja hasn’t really lit it up in the playoffs in crunch time. His cumulative 3pt% over this time span (01-05, since he only attempted three 3-pt attempts in 06) was 35.6% (88-247) so if Minny thinks they are getting the same awesome Peja who is an excellent shooter in their closing lineup, they are wrong. While it isn’t the largest sample size, it’s a decent sample size that is a trend over 5 seasons. Now combine that with the fact that he could be defended by Pierce at the end of the game and Minny should be concerned.

Bench
While we don’t have Gus and Steve Smith getting any minutes in this matchup, if the opportunity presents itself, we won’t hesitate to get them in the game. We feel our bench has a significant advantage over Minny’s, whose 2 best players are Peja and Hornacek. Neither compares to Carmelo, Gus Williams (who led the 79 championship Sonics team in scoring) or Steve Smith (20-4-4 peak). We also have Rick Mahorn who was a Bad Boy Piston who made an All-Defensive team. He’ll be key with helping to stop Shaq with the 6 fouls and physical defense he can provide us.

Price vs. Cousy
In addition, we really feel we have an advantage with Price over Cousy. Cousy was a 38% shooter who played in an era where basketball looked like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkD4GRGdCZI) (click on the video, but be warned). Can you really count on a player who played in the 50’s where players’ shot underhanded, had terrible shot selection and looked like your average middle schooler in a pickup game? Sure Cousy was a wizard with his passes but what does that matter if he can’t shoot the ball? We can literally not cover him at all and play the passing lanes with his man. What’s Cousy going to do? Pass it into double teams? I’m sure Minny will bring up the fact that we have Jerry Sloan but the simple fact is he played in the mid 60s to mid 70s, when basketball was much more developed. Besides, Sloan is there for his defense, not offense.

Summary (anti write-up people):
As seen above, T-Mac and Pierce will essentially cancel each other out. Both teams also have stud defenders in Bobby Jones and Bruce Bowen, who will see time on Pierce and T-Mac respectively. And if Shaq and Kareem’s offense essentially negates each other, the difference in this matchup will be the scoring of Carmelo. Minny does not have a 1x scoring champ on their bench. They also don’t have a secondary defender like Sloan to turn to (who was 6x All-Defensive team). Also, no one knows how Bobby Jones would defend Pierce but we do know how Bowen has defended T-Mac and the numbers don’t lie- T-Mac has struggled with his efficiency. In addition, factor in Minny’s questionable spacing among starters, Peja’s issues in the clutch and the fact that we can use Kareem as a help defender on Shaq because neither Sikma or Jones space the floor adequately enough. In comparison, our offense will take advantage of two clear Minneapolis weaknesses- Shaq’s poor P&R defense and Minny’s slowness in transition. Neither of Minny’s bigs are transition players so we feel that Price, Kareem, etc., will have plenty of opportunites to run on Minny. All of this leads to Death Star advancing.



Minutes:

Bob Cousy(30) l Tracy McGrady(10) l Rajon Rondo(8) l Reggie Theus
Tracy McGrady(30) l Jeff Hornacek(18)
Bobby Jones(18) l Peja Stojakovic(30)
Jack Sikma(25) l Bobby Jones(20) l P.J. Brown(3)
Shaquille O'Neal(40) l Jack Sikma(8) l P.J. Brown

Defensive Philosophy:
The idea we have going up against Death Star's starting lineup is that we'll have Tracy McGrady on Mark Price, Bob Cousy on Jerry Sloan, Bobby Jones on Paul Pierce, Jack Sikma on Bill Laimbeer and Shaq on Kareem.

McGrady has the speed to keep up with Price, and we believe the length of a 6'8 player, such as McGrady would have Price struggle. His length would make it harder for Price to pass, and there's no denying it would be harder to shoot with someone that has 8 inches on you constantly hovering over you. We feel with the defense of McGrady with his height and length mismatch on Price it would make it hard on him to create for the offense. His passes would have to be perfect, so when he wants to get it in to Kareem, or pass it out to Pierce, it would have to get by the big body of Shaq, or the quick hands of Bobby Jones. The point is, with McGrady on Price we feel we can force a lot of turnovers and ball deflections. Price is a big part of their offense.

Cousy, I think everyone knows is probably our defensive liability on our starting 5. This is why we decide to put him on Jerry Sloan. Cousy and Sloan played in the same era, meaning Cousy defended players similar to the style Sloan plays. We do not fear Sloan on the offensive side of the ball, as he is their weakest link of their starting 5. We feel between playing in the same era and having Sloan being their weakest link, we believe we can cover Cousy's defensive liability in this series.

Bobby Jones on Pierce, we love this matchup here. Really the only things we have been hearing about Jones is that he played in an older era, having people believe he can't be the great defender he is. With this matchup, Jones will be going up against Pierce who is very well known for not being athletic. Something people believe to be the reason Jones would struggle is the more athletic, faster players. This would not be the case against Pierce. Standing at 6'9 with the speed to play SF and the strength and length to play PF, we believe this will be Bobby Jones easier matchup of the playoffs so far.

A big part of Jack Sikma's game is playing outside, giving him the ability to hang with Laimbeer. We assume Laimbeer will be sitting out on the perimeter, and we have no problem with that. We have the defenders to keep Death Star's wings from attacking the rim. A reason Rajon Rondo will be seeing his first action of the playoffs is to have a better defender come off the bench.

Shaq on Kareem. This should be a fun matchup, on both sides of the court. One of the best in these entire playoffs. Kareem will get his, there's no way around it. He's one of the best players of all time. But we believe the big body and physical play of Shaq could contain him from going completely off.

Overall, we believe we have multiple rotations we can throw at Death Star's offense. In their last matchup, they brought Carmelo Anthony off the bench to play at SF and move Paul Pierce to SG. We don't believe these two would work well together on the court, as one is a ball dominant player and leaving Pierce to just be a shooter would be wasting his talent. Now, this is a completely different series. They may not play together much at all this series. If that may be the case (playing together), we would put Tracy McGrady on Pierce and Jones on Carmelo. Depending on who they play at PG with these players, there's a good chance we put in Hornacek (partly due to his shooting ability, but we'll get to that later) and play Rondo in the limited action he will receive. If they plan to play Carmelo at PF, we will move Jones to PF.

We will be bringing Rondo into this series on limited playing time. We noticed the offensive talent our opponent has so we're planning on playing Rondo over Reggie Theus.

Offensive Philosophy:
We expect Tracy McGrady to unleash this series. We don't see anyone that can guard him. They have Bruce Bowen coming off the bench, which by the time he would come in, we more than likely will have a rotation of Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek in the game. This would leave Bowen being an offensive liability, not being able to exploit the defensive liability of Peja. In this case we would have Peja guard Bowen, and Tmac be on whoever is on floor at the time, between Pierce or Carmelo. Also contrary to somes beliefs Cousy was effective on the offensive end although he couldn't shoot. He was great at driving and kicking out and with 3 point shooters to surround him with we think he can have success. While T Mac is better with the ball in his hands, he isn't a poor 3 point shooter as in his prime he shot 37% which is totally fine. Then once Cousy is out of the game, he becomes our dominant ball handler and his driving will draw guys from the perimeter in and leave our 3 point shooters open or he can feed the ball into Shaq inside which we all know is a recipe for success

When/if Pierce and Carmelo see the floor together, TMac will be guarding Pierce and we assume Price will be on the floor for most of the playing time at PG. As we originally stated TMac would be on Price, obviously that wouldn't be the case if he were on Pierce. So we would have Hornacek in the game. This would give us a solid defender on Price but more importantly, would give us the spacing we need when we have Jones (instead of Peja) in the game guarding Carmelo. In this case we would also have Sikma at the 4 where he starts, spacing the floor. When Sikma is able to space the floor, that would bring Laimbeer or whoever else is playing the 4 at the time to the perimeter. When Carmelo is in the game and the 4 is out of the paint, this allows the likes of TMac and Jones cutting to the rim. I have no problem seeing these players attack Carmelo, because if history has anything to show, it's that a player like TMac would beat Carmelo most of the time driving to the rim. This would lead Kareem to being alone, guarding Shaq.

Shaq vs. Kareem: As I stated, Kareem will get his. But I believe Shaq in a sense could contain him with his physical play and defense. I believe overall in this matchup to be the case. I believe Shaq is good enough to get his, but with the defense of Kareem that would keep him from going off. Most of this series they will be going at it 1 on 1 with both Sikma and Laimbeer playing the perimeter. They'll both get their chances doing what they do best, 1 on 1. If they do go 1 on 1 we feel Shaq will have success on the offensive end. While it tough to compare eras, Shaq did good things against Hakeem who was a dominant force. Now some of their matchups were Hakeem in his prime and some were out of Prime Hakeem Shaq still held his own. Kareem on the other hand while he may have been slightly out of his prime, was dominated by one of the few elite big men in Moses Malone. While Shaq wasn't as good of a rebounder as Moses we still feel that he and Sikma would control the boards and create a lof of second chance opportunities

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcxYUCQOZI

Killerjug
06-25-2013, 08:50 PM
GL PSK Tre and Swash should be a fun one

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 08:53 PM
GL PSK Tre and Swash should be a fun one

Yup :)

tredigs
06-25-2013, 09:09 PM
Bob Cousy: http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkes_PspRuzIA3CWJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMT Q4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimage s.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DBob%2BC ousy%26fr%3Dcrmas%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D32&w=282&h=400&imgurl=images2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb2008121019 3942%2Fboston-celtics%2Fimages%2F4%2F44%2FBasket_NBA_-_Campioni_Bob_Cousy.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fboston-celtics.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FBob_Cousy&size=23.1KB&name=%3Cb%3EBob+Cousy+%3C%2Fb%3E-+Boston+Celtics+Wiki&p=Bob+Cousy&oid=e6f5caca7145005a63584bc4b9162364&fr2=piv-web&fr=crmas&tt=%3Cb%3EBob+Cousy+%3C%2Fb%3E-+Boston+Celtics+Wiki&b=31&ni=192&no=32&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11esob1lk&sigb=12vd1a10o&sigi=13c26nqu7&.crumb=G2AtqSxv1xD&fr=crmas while a fun player and great lil passer + integral Celtic - was an undersized point and weak defender from the 50's - and trying to D up an All Star guard/forward from the late 60's to late 70s would be an order I don't think he could handle. Sloan was around 200lbs, 6'5"+ and strong. Although he's more known for his ALL NBA wing defense, Sloan averaged 18/9/4 on 44/72 in the early 70's against the larger guards + forwards of that era.

Seeing as he needs to play 30mpg based on the rules, I think that would be a nightmare for you guys to have little Cousy on a guard/forward and something that would no doubt gladly be exploited until help came and Sloan dished it off to whatever mismatch caved defensively. Being that they would have great spacing with Pierce and Price able to maintain the perimeter, the help would have to come a ways from them, if not from one of the bigs.

edit: A couple looks at Sloan in his playing days (it was a different era, and he was a bigger man): http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkIVmQMpROUcAlZKJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMT Q4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimage s.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Djerry%2 Bsloan%2Bplayer%26fr%3Dcrmas%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D29&w=594&h=587&imgurl=jazzfanatical.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F 10%2Fjerry.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjazzfanatical.wordpress.com%2F20 10%2F10%2F27%2Fhombre-baby-ill-give-you-hombre-jerry-sloan-the-player%2F&size=66.5KB&name=...+give+you+hombre%3A+%3Cb%3EJerry+Sloan+%3C %2Fb%3Ethe+%3Cb%3EPlayer+%3C%2Fb%3E%7C+Living+and+ Dying+by+the+Jazz&p=jerry+sloan+player&oid=20f3f21350be97b5a94556127b3e6bcd&fr2=piv-web&fr=crmas&tt=...+give+you+hombre%3A+%3Cb%3EJerry+Sloan+%3C%2 Fb%3Ethe+%3Cb%3EPlayer+%3C%2Fb%3E%7C+Living+and+Dy ing+by+the+Jazz&b=0&ni=192&no=29&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=135kt9tsa&sigb=1381uq5gp&sigi=11j42dorl&.crumb=G2AtqSxv1xD&fr=crmas
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkIVmQMpROUcAhpKJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMT Q4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimage s.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Djerry%2 Bsloan%2Bplayer%26fr%3Dcrmas%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D24&w=323&h=400&imgurl=cdn.bleacherreport.net%2Fimages_root%2Fslid es%2Fphotos%2F001%2F743%2F998%2FJerrySloan_display _image.jpg%3F1325364701&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F 1004904-chicago-bulls-the-greatest-bulls-of-all-time&size=36.6KB&name=For+over+45+years%2C+the+Chicago+Bulls+have+b een+one+of+the+NBA%26%2339%3Bs+top+franchises.+Sin ce+the+first+season&p=jerry+sloan+player&oid=e575c83f73ce4b6db85fca590ca1ea10&fr2=piv-web&fr=crmas&tt=For+over+45+years%2C+the+Chicago+Bulls+have+bee n+one+of+the+NBA%26%2339%3Bs+top+franchises.+Since +the+first+season&b=0&ni=192&no=24&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12npcr4ck&sigb=1388a97ul&sigi=134d3bmvl&.crumb=G2AtqSxv1xD&fr=crmas

Killerjug
06-25-2013, 09:23 PM
thats like saying putting sloan on Peja is a good idea when he has 4 inches on Sloan and played in a more athletic era though

tredigs
06-25-2013, 09:34 PM
thats like saying putting sloan on Peja is a good idea when he has 4 inches on Sloan and played in a more athletic era though

I highly disagree there. Sloan was a defensive SPECIALIST above being that 18+9 guy in his prime and was awarded as a multi-All NBA Defensive 1st Teamer who was tasked with guarding the likes of Oscar Robertson, Sam Jones, Rick Barry, etc. That's what he did.

Peja wouldn't be the biggest, most athletic nor best scorer he's faced by a long shot. I actually love that matchup for Sloan.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 09:39 PM
thats like saying putting sloan on Peja is a good idea when he has 4 inches on Sloan and played in a more athletic era though

Except Cousy wasn't known for his defense and he guarded inferior players then Sloan did. As tredigs said, Peja is not the most athletic player that Sloan has guarded. The late 60s/early 70s might not be this era in terms of athleticism but it's still world's better then what was faced in the 50's (where a majority of players were white and everyone shot 1 handed...).

Killerjug
06-25-2013, 09:50 PM
But Peja is a superior offensive player to Sloan as well

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 10:00 PM
But Peja is a superior offensive player to Sloan as well

Well, based on your write-up, the only time we'll really be going to Sloan is if Cousy's on him. Pretty much we'll just be exploiting Cousy no matter who he's guarding.

roshan3ai
06-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Well, based on your write-up, the only time we'll really be going to Sloan is if Cousy's on him. Pretty much we'll just be exploiting Cousy no matter who he's guarding.

So Sloan is exploiting Cousy on offense? I like Minny's chances if you're going to Sloan.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 10:08 PM
So Sloan is exploiting Cousy on offense? I like Minny's chances if you're going to Sloan.

C'mon Rosh - Obviously a 50's guard who is both smaller and weaker than Nash will be exploited by a guard/forward capable of 18/9/4 in the 70's. How's Cousy going to stop him? ... Answer is with help D. Which is where the passing wheel begins and ends up in any one of KAJ/Pierce/Price/Melo, etc's hands. If they don't get help, he'll just back the little guy down all day.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2013, 10:10 PM
So Sloan is exploiting Cousy on offense? I like Minny's chances if you're going to Sloan.

Not as a primary option obviously but he's someone we can go to if need be.

Lucky.
06-25-2013, 10:30 PM
Offensive philosophy:
The strength of Death Star's highly potent offense rests on its combination of elite efficiency, power and versatility. Our starting lineup boasts 2 players who have shot over 40% from three in multiple seasons in Price + Pierce (Price at .402 career being one of the greatest shooters ever). Our opponent has no starters who can claim that. Our bench doesn't let up in that regard with both Bruce Bowen and Melo being highly capable gunners from the perimeter (and Armstrong + Steve Smith should they see action). In order to free them up, one of our most crucial offensive tacts will be realizing our offensive mismatch in the Price + KAJ duo running a flurry of pick and rolls on Minny to exploit one of both Shaq + Cousy's notorious weaknesses (Shaq in getting up + back in a PnR and Cousy's slight nature in fighting through monster screens).


Although not exactly starting, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing starter minutes. Peja Stojakovic and Hornacek ultimately shot a career .401 and .403 from three. People keep saying our spacing is a problem but really, we have no problem with you guys leaving them open.



We're happy to be able to be able to mitigate Shaq's low post dominance in the interior (when not shot with Price's accuracy or kicked to our gunners) with Kareem's ridiculously deadly sky hook from up to 12 feet. Our 3pt shooting and fast-break layups in transition are also going to be a major factor as we are both the better rebounding and quicker of the two squads (Laimbeer possessing both speed and a top 1-5 rebounder of the 80's along with KAJ. Melo as a stretch 4 in Laimbeer's space when Shaq is out furthers that approach). Unlike our opponents and their #1 option Shaq, we also constructed a team that they cannot afford to foul, as none of our offensive options shoot less than 70% from the stripe, with our top 5 and closing lineup of Price + Pierce + Melo + Laimbeer + KAJ averaging out at around 84%. Simply put, from post scoring (KAJ) to passing ability (Price + Pierce + KAJ) to the ability to both run as well as stretch the floor from the block (KAJ + Laimbeer) to perimeter shooting (Melo + Bowen + Price + Pierce) to hitting from the stripe (Team), we simply have too many strengths to be contained. Especially by a team whose first line of defense in attempting to battle through our screens from KAJ and the Bad Boy Pistons will be Bob Cousy. Mark Price (a 4 time top-10 MVP candidate though the late 80's/early 90's Golden ERA with elite playmaking skills and one of 6 players ever to post the 50/40/90) alone will put on a shooting clinic off those PnR's that will be tough for them to answer.

As our write up shows, we'll have McGrady on Price. Price, the player leading your offense will have a much harder time "kicking it out to your gunners" with McGrady's length on him. We're not worried about Laimbeer's rebounding. He's a very good rebounder, but so is Jack Sikma. I have little doubt that he would be able to hold his own on rebounds. If we want to use career averages like you have been doing, Jack Sikma is a career average of 9.8 while Laimbeer has a career average of 9.7; apparently giving Laimbeer the edge. We also don't have a problem with Cousy being our first line of defense if Mark Price, who quoted by you, isn't a very good defender, is your first line of defense. McGrady actually has a higher career 3pt% (.338) than Carmelo (.334). Hornacek actually has a higher career 3pt% (.403) than Price (.402). Peja Stojakovic has a higher career 3pt% (.401) than Pierce (.370). Even Sikma, our big man who can't shoot, has a higher career 3pt% (.328) than your big man who can, Laimbeer (.326). If our floor spacing is our downfall, what does that make your spacing, one of your strong points?


Some people also like to point out that Moses Malone - being a more aggressive Center - often got the best of Kareem. What they fail to take into account is that by the time Moses was getting the best of Kareem, KAJ was in his mid 30's while Malone was peaking as a 23-27 yr old who was putting up 28ppg and leading the league in rebounds yearly at around 15 a night. Unfortunately for Shaq and co., he won't be seeing that Kareem. He'll be getting the young Buck version - the player who won 5 MVP's in 6 seasons (robbed of the other) and was leading the league in points, rebounds, blocks and WinShares + PER in any given year as the best player in the league on both sides of the ball; Famously receiving the quote from Wilt Chamberlain proclaiming, "I really needed help to guard Kareem. He is the only guy." And from Dr. J ďBill Russell is the greatest champion but Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest player in the history of the game.Ē

Shaq also has 3 inches on Moses, and a more dominant peak. Quoting NBA players to prove your point? I suppose I can dig up some quotes about Rajon Rondo being the best PG in today's NBA.



ďFirst of all, to me, Rondo is the best all-around,Ē Johnson said. ďThereís nobody even close to him as far as all-around, when you think about scoring, rebounding, assists, heís No. 1.


Good thing I have the PG that's superior to Chris Paul coming off my bench. That should help.



Paul Pierce vs. T-Mac
Iíve taken head 2 head matchup stats of Pierce vs. T-Mac and compiled the numbers for various intervals of T-Macís career. And because I wanted to be fair to T-Mac, I only included his prime years. Iíve also compiled 4 different intervals of T-Macís career: his best season, his best 3 seasons, his best 5 seasons and his entire prime.


Code:
Paul Pierce vs. T-Mac
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 51.80% 29.0 8.8 5.3 4 32.24
2000-03 56.94% 25.3 8.0 4.5 12 26.00
2000-05 55.06% 24.0 7.4 5.4 18 25.41
2000-08 55.84% 23.2 6.8 5.2 22 24.11
Code:
T-Mac vs. Pierce
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 52.75% 29.5 6.5 4.0 4 30.46
2000-03 53.08% 25.1 6.3 5.0 12 25.96
2000-05 52.34% 25.8 5.9 4.9 18 27.18
2000-08 53.49% 24.8 5.7 5.2 22 25.88
*estimated USG is assuming both teams used 100 possessions, since it's matchup stats, the pace will be the same for both teams

For pretty much all intervals of their career, T-Mac and Pierce have matched up to a draw (though the numbers indicate a slight advantage for Pierce actually). So Death Star can essentially negate or equal T-Macís impact with Pierce.


McGrady is a better player than Pierce, and there's no way around it. You yourself said you wished your Co had picked McGrady over Pierce, and continued by asking what it would take to get McGrady in a trade :shrug:



Defensive Philosophy:
First, weíd like to highlight T-Macís struggles against Bruce Bowen (8x All-Defensive team), who will exclusively be guarding T-Mac. For the majority of the minutes T-Mac is playing, heíll be seeing Bowen on him. Here are T-Macís numbers vs. Bowen in head to head matchups. Like before, Iíve taken T-Macís numbers vs. Bowen in head to head matchups and compiled the numbers for various intervals of T-Macís career.

Code:
T-Mac vs. Bowen
TS% PPG RPG APG games estimated USG
2002-03 49.27% 32.5 8.5 4.5 2 34.48
2000-03 45.71% 22.0 7.1 2.7 7 26.35
2000-05 46.49% 24.2 6.8 3.4 13 29.14
2000-08 46.67% 23.0 7.0 3.9 20 27.39
As you can see in this table, T-Mac has struggled vs. Bowen, whether itís over the course of 7 seasons or only his best season in 2002-03. Bowenís tenacious defense (bordering on dirty) will make life difficult for T-Mac and then combine that with the fact that T-Mac is going to be asked to defend Carmelo or Pierce and heís going to be expending a ton of energy. Outside of the minutes that Bowen will be guarding T-Mac (which will be the majority), weíll put Paul Pierce on T-Mac. Pierce is a good defender who has ranked in the top 25% of players in defense via synergy numbers over the last 4 seasons. While Pierce improved as a defender as his career went on, he was still an underrated defender in his early years with his defensive RAPM always above 0 (meaning he made a positive impact on defense).

Bowen is a great defender, no denying that. It would be a great matchup to see a great offensive player on a great defensive one. But if Bowen is in the game, we can put Peja Stojakovic in without having to worry about his defense. We would put Peja on Bowen on defense. Although Bowen was a good 3pt shooter, we feel comfortable leaving Peja out there on him.


In regards to Shaq, the Death Star will put Bill Laimbeer on him. While it is impossible to stop Shaq, we feel Laimbeerís physical and letís be frank, dirty play will frustrate Shaq. While Death Star doesnít condone injuring players, Laimbeer will be Laimbeer and he will get under Shaqís skin. Maybe Shaq is able to control his temper but if he goes after Laimbeer just once, thatís all it takes to swing the game heavily in our favor. In the meantime, if Shaq is able to avoid punching Laimbeer, Death Star will make sure he goes to the line with hard fouls. With 6 fouls from the Bad Boy Piston Rick Mahorn available, Shaq will have to hit free throws at some point. And Death Star isnít afraid to employ the hack a Shaq strategy. Death Star will also play the Bad Boy duo of Rick Mahorn and Bill Laimbeer for a few minutes, just to get Shaq accustomed to real physical dirty defense which he never had to face in his prime from 2000-2002.

So let me get this straight, you're putting Laimbeer on Shaq, with the hope to get Shaq thrown out of the game from Laimbeer playing dirty, and eventually when that doesn't work you're going to play hack-a-Shaq? If this is the case, we have no problem with your way of guarding Shaq.


In regards to our strategy of stopping Shaq, Death Star will double team him. Minnyís starting lineup lacks sufficient spacing so when the starters are out there, Death Star will pack the paint. In fact, none of Minnyís starters are above 35% from three over their careers. And Minnyís starters have had only 2 seasons out of all of their starterís careersí where they hit over 38%. Of course, one of those seasons happens to be the season that Sikma got ***** slapped by Bill Laimbeer in the playoffs. Specifically, Death Star will use the rangy, athletic, 7-4í Kareem (itís widely known that Kareem lied about his height) as a help defender. Since Sikma doesnít have a 3 point shot, we believe Kareem can double Shaq and recover quick enough to contest a Sikma jumpshot, which is a lower % shot anyways (mid-range shots are roughly a 40% shot, with it being worth only 2 points makes it the worst shot in the game). Since Kareem (excellent help defender) should be able to contest the shot after double teaming Shaq, having Sikma shoot a somewhat contested jumpers is not going to win Minneapolis the game, especially because Sikma isnít nearly as automatic from mid-range as say a Mark Price might be.


Again, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing STARTER minutes. If you want to double Shaq, be my guest. Shaq has been double teamed many time before and still puts up damn good numbers, often putting the opponent in foul trouble. And seriously, you're really going to say "Sikma isn't nearly as automatic from mid-range as say a Mark Price might be" when just two nights ago you were asking Chronz in a chatzy how good was Jack Sikma's jumper was. How could you possibly know how "automatic" his jumper was when you were just asking someone else how effiecient it was?


Finally, while Iím sure Minny will play Hornacek and Peja a ton of minutes, our strategy of double teaming Shaq with Kareem wonít change. Whether itís Sikma or Bobby Jones at PF, neither player has a 3 point shot and thus will be a bit closer to the basket allowing Kareem enough time to recover and somewhat contest their jump shot. And in both cases, Sikma or Bobby Jones are hardly automatic from mid-range. We arenít talking about Mark Price here. If Minny thinks theyíll beat Death Star shooting Sikma/Bobby Jones jump shots, good luck. Since both of these players will see all of the time at PF, it means that Kareem will be able to do this the whole game. In the instances that Kareem is guarding Shaq, we will still employ this tactic with whoever the PF is. This also will allow the rest of Death Starís players to stick to their man.

Bobby Jones may not have been a 3pt shooter, but he was super efficient. He knew how to get to the basket and get layups. And yes, I will depend on Sikma's jumpshot if you leave him open. Don't forget, when you double Shaq, you're also leaving McGrady 1 on 1. No matter who is guarding McGrady, Bowen, Pierce, Sloan. I will take that 1 on 1 all series with the room he'll get with both Kareem and Laimbeer being in the paint. Cousy 1 on 1 I'll take too. You can knock his defense all you want but the fact is, his ability to create was something special. He may have not had a great jumper, but he knew how to get to the lane and drive. Just watch some videos of him. His passing was unreal and we may never see something on the level of his passing again. All this added up to your own quote, Mark Price isn't that good defensively.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?674765-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Conference-Finals-KC-Kings-Nuggets/page2&highlight=kings+nuggets+kareem+time

Post #24


I think the Nuggets have an advantage with Billups vs. Price. And I think that advantage could get them the win in game 7 of the series. Price was not very good defensively

If Price's defense was enough for you to decide on a series, what does that mean for this series?


Bench
While we donít have Gus and Steve Smith getting any minutes in this matchup, if the opportunity presents itself, we wonít hesitate to get them in the game. We feel our bench has a significant advantage over Minnyís, whose 2 best players are Peja and Hornacek. Neither compares to Carmelo, Gus Williams (who led the 79 championship Sonics team in scoring) or Steve Smith (20-4-4 peak). We also have Rick Mahorn who was a Bad Boy Piston who made an All-Defensive team. Heíll be key with helping to stop Shaq with the 6 fouls and physical defense he can provide us.

Our bench has a combination of Peja Stojakovic, Jeff Hornacek, and a mix of our starters such as Bobby Jones and Jack Sikma. Our players are very versatile, with just about everyone being able to play different positions. Another thing I'd like to point out is height. We have Cousy who is 6'1 and then everyone else in our starting lineup is 6'8, 6'9, 6'11 and 7'1. Peja Stojakovic is also 6'9.


I don't see anyway how you have a significant advantage on the bench when our bench has combinations of Rajon Rondo (Apparently better than Chris Paul), Reggie Theus, Jeff Hornacek, Tracy McGrady, Bobby Jones, Peja Stojakovic, Jack Sikma and P.J. Brown who is someone who can come into the game for needed defense and bang with bigger bodies.

Lucky.
06-25-2013, 10:32 PM
Down 4-0 already? What happened to letting each other make their points?

The_Jamal
06-25-2013, 10:42 PM
Nice response Lucky. Was leaning Minny, but I like what Death Star did with their minutes

Will wait for a few more responses, but Shaq+Tmac with 2 of the greatest shooters ever (Horny+Peja) is a lot to overcome. I have no problem letting Horny and Peja take over the game if all the Death Star attention is on Tmac+Shaq. Let's not pretend Sikma can't hit an open jumper either if Death Star doesn't rotate.

Keep arguing :nod:

tredigs
06-25-2013, 11:05 PM
Although not exactly starting, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing starter minutes. Peja Stojakovic and Hornacek ultimately shot a career .401 and .403 from three. People keep saying our spacing is a problem but really, we have no problem with you guys leaving them open.




As our write up shows, we'll have McGrady on Price. Price, the player leading your offense will have a much harder time "kicking it out to your gunners" with McGrady's length on him. We're not worried about Laimbeer's rebounding. He's a very good rebounder, but so is Jack Sikma. I have little doubt that he would be able to hold his own on rebounds. If we want to use career averages like you have been doing, Jack Sikma is a career average of 9.8 while Laimbeer has a career average of 9.7; apparently giving Laimbeer the edge. We also don't have a problem with Cousy being our first line of defense if Mark Price, who quoted by you, isn't a very good defender, is your first line of defense. McGrady actually has a higher career 3pt% (.338) than Carmelo (.334). Hornacek actually has a higher career 3pt% (.403) than Price (.402). Peja Stojakovic has a higher career 3pt% (.401) than Pierce (.370). Even Sikma, our big man who can't shoot, has a higher career 3pt% (.328) than your big man who can, Laimbeer (.326). If our floor spacing is our downfall, what does that make your spacing, one of your strong points?



Shaq also has 3 inches on Moses, and a more dominant peak. Quoting NBA players to prove your point? I suppose I can dig up some quotes about Rajon Rondo being the best PG in today's NBA.




Good thing I have the PG that's superior to Chris Paul coming off my bench. That should help.




McGrady is a better player than Pierce, and there's no way around it. You yourself said you wished your Co had picked McGrady over Pierce, and continued by asking what it would take to get McGrady in a trade :shrug:




Bowen is a great defender, no denying that. It would be a great matchup to see a great offensive player on a great defensive one. But if Bowen is in the game, we can put Peja Stojakovic in without having to worry about his defense. We would put Peja on Bowen on defense. Although Bowen was a good 3pt shooter, we feel comfortable leaving Peja out there on him.



So let me get this straight, you're putting Laimbeer on Shaq, with the hope to get Shaq thrown out of the game from Laimbeer playing dirty, and eventually when that doesn't work you're going to play hack-a-Shaq? If this is the case, we have no problem with your way of guarding Shaq.




Again, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing STARTER minutes. If you want to double Shaq, be my guest. Shaq has been double teamed many time before and still puts up damn good numbers, often putting the opponent in foul trouble. And seriously, you're really going to say "Sikma isn't nearly as automatic from mid-range as say a Mark Price might be" when just two nights ago you were asking Chronz in a chatzy how good was Jack Sikma's jumper was. How could you possibly know how "automatic" his jumper was when you were just asking someone else how effiecient it was?



Bobby Jones may not have been a 3pt shooter, but he was super efficient. He knew how to get to the basket and get layups. And yes, I will depend on Sikma's jumpshot if you leave him open. Don't forget, when you double Shaq, you're also leaving McGrady 1 on 1. No matter who is guarding McGrady, Bowen, Pierce, Sloan. I will take that 1 on 1 all series with the room he'll get with both Kareem and Laimbeer being in the paint. Cousy 1 on 1 I'll take too. You can knock his defense all you want but the fact is, his ability to create was something special. He may have not had a great jumper, but he knew how to get to the lane and drive. Just watch some videos of him. His passing was unreal and we may never see something on the level of his passing again. All this added up to your own quote, Mark Price isn't that good defensively.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?674765-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Conference-Finals-KC-Kings-Nuggets/page2&highlight=kings+nuggets+kareem+time

Post #24



If Price's defense was enough for you to decide on a series, what does that mean for this series?



Our bench has a combination of Peja Stojakovic, Jeff Hornacek, and a mix of our starters such as Bobby Jones and Jack Sikma. Our players are very versatile, with just about everyone being able to play different positions. Another thing I'd like to point out is height. We have Cousy who is 6'1 and then everyone else in our starting lineup is 6'8, 6'9, 6'11 and 7'1. Peja Stojakovic is also 6'9.


I don't see anyway how you have a significant advantage on the bench when our bench has combinations of Rajon Rondo (Apparently better than Chris Paul), Reggie Theus, Jeff Hornacek, Tracy McGrady, Bobby Jones, Peja Stojakovic, Jack Sikma and P.J. Brown who is someone who can come into the game for needed defense and bang with bigger bodies.

The reason why your floor spacing is a downfall is because you have to play with 30 minutes of Cousy - a 38% career shooter who we will pack the paint on and dare to shoot all game. Think Rajon Rondo, but without the ability to finish at the rim (we also love that you traded for Rondo as the backup point. He'd be played the same way). Price is not a great defender (tho' not Cousy bad by any means), but our weak PG defender was one of the top shooters in NBA history and demands massive attention at all times. Yours was terrible. That's the difference. And if the notoriously lazy and inconsistent defense of 6'8" T-Mac is your answer to guarding our PG (while leaving an undersized 50's PG to guard a 70's guard/forward), so be it. I would imagine he spends quite a bit of time getting crossed over and/or fatigued very quickly. And let's not pretend that his wingspan is going to deter one of the greatest playmakers of that generation from getting the ball out of his hands and create for others. That's ridiculous. This is T-Mac, not Jordan.

As to Sikma, he did not develop his 3 until he was nearly retired, and made a total of 10 total 3's in 11 playoff runs throughout his whole career. Laimbeer was still in his prime while having the capability to stretch the floor to 3 on championship runs. The two are not equal.

Bobby Jones, another guy who's getting 38 minutes from you at the forward slots, literally never made a three in his career. He took 20 or so, but never could find that net...

And we all know that Shaq wasn't drawing anyone out of the paint, which is where we'll be packing it in on him with Laimbeer and a 7'3"+ DPOY/Shot-Blocking legend in KAJ who could cover ground with speed and ridiculous length. And yes, if he got deep enough position he would indeed get sent to the line. Where maybe he'll even make 1.

In short, your spacing sucks, even with Peja getting proper play and Hornacek seeing 18 minutes, it's not enough to account for all the ~70 or so minutes of Jones + Cousy (and others) who can't stretch the floor for you.

I think trading for a guy like Curry off your bench to back up Cousy rather than going for Rondo would've been a way better play. We have All NBA 1st team defensive talent along with +defenders like Pierce that won't let your actual shooters see any easy looks from the perimeter when they happen to be in.

I'm a little tired of writing on this right now, but wanted to address that point specifically.

Lucky.
06-25-2013, 11:35 PM
The reason why your floor spacing is a downfall is because you have to play with 30 minutes of Cousy - a 38% career shooter who we will pack the paint on and dare to shoot all game. Think Rajon Rondo, but without the ability to finish at the rim (we also love that you traded for Rondo as the backup point. He'd be played the same way). Price is not a great defender (tho' not Cousy bad by any means), but our weak PG defender was one of the top shooters in NBA history and demands massive attention at all times. Yours was terrible. That's the difference. And if the notoriously lazy and inconsistent defense of 6'8" T-Mac is your answer to guarding our PG (while leaving an undersized 50's PG to guard a 70's guard/forward), so be it. I would imagine he spends quite a bit of time getting crossed over and/or fatigued very quickly. And let's not pretend that his wingspan is going to deter one of the greatest playmakers of that generation from getting the ball out of his hands and create for others. That's ridiculous. This is T-Mac, not Jordan.

I never once said Cousy could shoot, or that we'd have him out on the perimeter shooting jumpshots constantly. We're content on him using his ability to create and drive to the basket. And while you're mentioning weak defender and shooting ability is beyond me, they won't be guarding each other, or at least mine won't. And if you want to say Sloan, who was more known for his defense than offense would have a big advantage having Cousy on him, than our height and versatility should give you problems.

McGrady isn't known for his defense, but you're underrating his defense. I never said he was our answer to guarding Price, other than that it would be tougher on Price to make his crisp passes, and obviously be harder to shoot when someone has that much of a height advantage hovering over you. If you want to use McGrady's "Laziness" in a game like this, then I suppose you have to consider Pierce's attitude before he was on a contender.



As to Sikma, he did not develop his 3 until he was nearly retired, and made a total of 10 total 3's in 11 playoff runs throughout his whole career. Laimbeer was still in his prime while having the capability to stretch the floor to 3 on championship runs. The two are not equal.

It doesn't matter when he developed it, you guys have been using career averages and statistics throughout your arguments/writeup. The fact that he had should be good enough, apparently.


Bobby Jones, another guy who's getting 38 minutes from you at the forward slots, literally never made a three in his career. He took 20 or so, but never could find that net...

Again, we don't need him to. A lot of those 38 minutes he'll be at PF, in which you usually don't expect most bigs to be able to hit the 3pt shot.


And we all know that Shaq wasn't drawing anyone out of the paint, which is where we'll be packing it in on him with Laimbeer and a 7'3"+ DPOY/Shot-Blocking legend in KAJ who could cover ground with speed and ridiculous length. And yes, if he got deep enough position he would indeed get sent to the line. Where maybe he'll even make 1.

In short, your spacing sucks, even with Peja getting proper play and Hornacek seeing 18 minutes, it's not enough to account for all the ~70 or so minutes of Jones + Cousy (and others) who can't stretch the floor for you.

Our spacing sucks? Because we're not a great 3pt shooting team? I already showed that some of our shooters such as McGrady, Sikma, Peja and Hornacek were better than Pierce, Price, Laimbeer and Carmelo. Also since when does the 3pt line considered spacing? Jones is capable of hitting the jumper, even though it's not from 3. Most of our guys are capable of hitting the mid-range shot. Whether it's worth 2, or 3 points you still have to respect their shot.


I think trading for a guy like Curry off your bench to back up Cousy rather than going for Rondo would've been a way better play. We have All NBA 1st team defensive talent along with +defenders like Pierce that won't let your actual shooters see any easy looks from the perimeter when they happen to be in.

That wasn't an option, and we actually tried many trade scenarios. But that doesn't really matter. The point it is, Rondo won't even be seeing much time anyway. When Cousy is out we'll be seeing a backcourt of TMac and Hornacek, with TMac playing more of the ball handling role.

Catfish1314
06-25-2013, 11:52 PM
Death Star was used at least seventy times in their write up.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-26-2013, 12:33 AM
Although not exactly starting, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing starter minutes. Peja Stojakovic and Hornacek ultimately shot a career .401 and .403 from three. People keep saying our spacing is a problem but really, we have no problem with you guys leaving them open.

I said your starters' spacing is an issue. Like it or not, your starters are going to be in the game. And when that happens, we'll pack the paint. As for when Peja and Hornacek are in the game, again, as we said in our write-up, that doesn't change what our strategy will be. We'll still double Shaq with Kareem and Laimbeer and let Sikma attempt to beat us with mid-range jump shots. And as we said in our write-up, KAJ has the length, height and range to be able to recover quickly and contest Sikma's jumper. The guy wasn't 11x all-defense for nothing. He can undoubtedly double Shaq and recover enough to contest Sikma's jumper. We'll leave Sloan, Pierce or whoever out on your shooters. No one said they'd be open.



As our write up shows, we'll have McGrady on Price. Price, the player leading your offense will have a much harder time "kicking it out to your gunners" with McGrady's length on him. We're not worried about Laimbeer's rebounding. He's a very good rebounder, but so is Jack Sikma. I have little doubt that he would be able to hold his own on rebounds. If we want to use career averages like you have been doing, Jack Sikma is a career average of 9.8 while Laimbeer has a career average of 9.7; apparently giving Laimbeer the edge.

You should be worried about Laimbeer's rebounding- he led the league in rebounding in 85-86 as well as finishing 1st in DRB% that same year.

Instead of looking at career, let's look at peak rebounding numbers between Sikma and Laimbeer which is what really matters. You'll see Laimbeer has an advantage:


Laimbeer Sikma
TRB%*▾ TRB%*▾
19.7 18.5
18.7 18
18.6 18
18.3 17.8
18 17.4


Laimbeer's 5 best rebounding seasons beat Sikma's 5 best rebounding seasons so there is no doubt that Laimbeer is the better rebounder in peak form.

In regards to T-Mac on Price, sure that'll make it more difficult for Price but let's not pretend like T-Mac was an amazing defender. He was lazy at times and there's no doubt he could get caught napping on a Price spot up 3.



We also don't have a problem with Cousy being our first line of defense if Mark Price, who quoted by you, isn't a very good defender, is your first line of defense.

Price is a better defender than Cousy though. At the very least, he's competed with players who are athletically superior. In Cousy's time, he would've been lucky to see 1 black athlete on the court. So he doesn't even have the experience of having to defend superior athletes. And a decent question would be- could Cousy actually play in the NBA in modern times? There's no such question with Price.

And since Price will be defending Cousy and his 38% shooting, his defense won't be that critical.



McGrady actually has a higher career 3pt% (.338) than Carmelo (.334). Hornacek actually has a higher career 3pt% (.403) than Price (.402). Peja Stojakovic has a higher career 3pt% (.401) than Pierce (.370). Even Sikma, our big man who can't shoot, has a higher career 3pt% (.328) than your big man who can, Laimbeer (.326). If our floor spacing is our downfall, what does that make your spacing, one of your strong points?

Again, you missed the part where I said your starters' spacing. You also missed the following part:


And Minnyís starters have had only 2 seasons out of all of their starterís careersí where they hit over 38%.

Look it up- Sikma has 1 season where he hit over 38% and T-Mac has one season where he hit over 38%. Cousy and Jones never shot the 3 that well.

In regards to our team, we'll never have a situation where we only have a combined 2 seasons >38% from downtown because 2 of our starters can shoot well. And as I said above, like it or not, your starters will be in the game all at one point. I never said you're spacing was weak, I said your starters spacing is weak. Whether that lineup is out there for a few mins or more, that's still a big disadvantage for just those few mins. A game can turn in that time period.

Also, it seems you missed the part about Peja's clutch 3pt% ;)



Shaq also has 3 inches on Moses, and a more dominant peak. Quoting NBA players to prove your point? I suppose I can dig up some quotes about Rajon Rondo being the best PG in today's NBA.

Good thing I have the PG that's superior to Chris Paul coming off my bench. That should help.

Maybe the Dr. J quote is insignificant but that Wilt quote is telling. We're talking about the all-defensive team Wilt in the early 70's- admitting he needed help guarding young Kareem. That isn't something you can just brush away. I fail to see how Shaq is going to stop the Skyhook even from 12 feet out. It's regarded as one of the most unblockable shots. In addition, as we said, we'd P&R you to death (Shaq is weak there) and run on you.

And come on, we didn't have any ridiculous quotes. KAJ is widely regarded as the #2-3 best player of all-time. Also, Magic didn't even say Rondo was the best PG....Your really grasping at straws here.



McGrady is a better player than Pierce, and there's no way around it. You yourself said you wished your Co had picked McGrady over Pierce, and continued by asking what it would take to get McGrady in a trade :shrug:

Really? Got any evidence I said that? ;)

Besides, it doesn't matter who is the better player. It's matchup based- throughout their career, Pierce and T-Mac have battled to a standstill (and I'm being generous here, looking at the numbers, Pierce has a slight advantage). Let's not pretend this is a tiny sample size, it's a pretty decent number of games.



Bowen is a great defender, no denying that. It would be a great matchup to see a great offensive player on a great defensive one. But if Bowen is in the game, we can put Peja Stojakovic in without having to worry about his defense. We would put Peja on Bowen on defense. Although Bowen was a good 3pt shooter, we feel comfortable leaving Peja out there on him.

Ok, we're just relying on Bowen to hit open 3s. Never said otherwise. He's almost as much of a nonfactor as Cousy is. Almost but he can at least hit over 38% from the field. Er from the 3 point line. Put Peja on Bowen, that's fine. Our offense is still built around pick and rolling you to death (a weakness of Shaq's defense) and getting out in transition (you have slower bigs).

None of this changes the fact that it's documented that T-Mac has struggled in his career against Bowen. Those aren't pretty TS%'s there. And it doesn't appear like he shot anymore then he normally would. I'll give you his teams' weren't good but the fact is that his TS% against Bowen were a good 5% points worse then his peak seasons' average TS%. That's a pretty sharp decline.



So let me get this straight, you're putting Laimbeer on Shaq, with the hope to get Shaq thrown out of the game from Laimbeer playing dirty, and eventually when that doesn't work you're going to play hack-a-Shaq? If this is the case, we have no problem with your way of guarding Shaq.

What? We said we'd quick double Shaq with the rangy Kareem. While Shaq was great, scoring on the pair of Laimbeer AND Kareem is going to be difficult. As long as Kareem rotates quickly (which there is no reason he shouldn't with his excellent help D), Death Star will be fine.

The point of that statement was that because of the way Laimbeer plays, he will undoubtedly frustrate Shaq. Many players lost their cool against Laimbeer so it's possible Shaq does too. As for hack-a-Shaq: 1 out of 2 points? We'll take it. We have confidence our offense can outscore 1 out of 2 points every possession.



Again, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Hornacek will be playing STARTER minutes. If you want to double Shaq, be my guest. Shaq has been double teamed many time before and still puts up damn good numbers, often putting the opponent in foul trouble. And seriously, you're really going to say "Sikma isn't nearly as automatic from mid-range as say a Mark Price might be" when just two nights ago you were asking Chronz in a chatzy how good was Jack Sikma's jumper was. How could you possibly know how "automatic" his jumper was when you were just asking someone else how effiecient it was?

Our perimeter guys will stay on their man (whether it's Peja or Hornacek). Shaq has been double teamed by a combination of Bill Laimbeer and Kareem? I didn't know that...

Where did I ask that? Got any proof? Also, where's your point/evidence? It's just attacking what I said. And it's simple- research and extrapolation. Pure shooting ability can be estimated by a combination of 3 point shooting and Free Throw shooting. Sikma has the latter but not the former. And using that, it's quite clear that Sikma's mid-range shot isn't as automatic as Mark Price's. Would anyone disagree with that? It's not a statement on a lack of Sikma's ability, it's a statement that he's worse then Mark Price from mid-range.

And in any case, as we've repeatedly said, Kareem has the length, range and skill to quick double Shaq and recover to contest Sikma's mid-range shot. Are you going to question Kareem's ability to do that?

Finally, none of this changes the fact that mid-range shots are the worst shot in the game. So if you want to continue to shoot mid-range shots and expect to win, by all means go ahead. But it's statistically proven that the teams with the best at the rim/3 pt attempts to mid range attempts are the best teams offensively. By all means, take the most inefficient shot on the court. It's better than having Shaq score near the hoop.



Bobby Jones may not have been a 3pt shooter, but he was super efficient. He knew how to get to the basket and get layups. And yes, I will depend on Sikma's jumpshot if you leave him open. Don't forget, when you double Shaq, you're also leaving McGrady 1 on 1. No matter who is guarding McGrady, Bowen, Pierce, Sloan. I will take that 1 on 1 all series with the room he'll get with both Kareem and Laimbeer being in the paint.

Again, see above about mid-range shots being the worst % shot in the game and the fact that Kareem has the range, athleticism and height to recover and contest Sikma's jumpshot. Same goes for Bobby Jones. Please do depend on that shot because again, based on the %'s, that means your team will likely lose if you're consistently taking mid-range jumpers. It's the least efficient shot in the game- no way around it.

And as seen in the able I provided, T-Mac has struggled against Bowen in his career. He'll get his points sure, but he'll be a volume scorer which is not good for your offense. And Pierce is every bit capable of essentially matching T-Mac point for point (remember 08 game 7 vs. Lebron?)



Cousy 1 on 1 I'll take too. You can knock his defense all you want but the fact is, his ability to create was something special. He may have not had a great jumper, but he knew how to get to the lane and drive. Just watch some videos of him. His passing was unreal and we may never see something on the level of his passing again.

All this added up to your own quote, Mark Price isn't that good defensively.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?674765-NBA-All-Time-Redraft-Conference-Finals-KC-Kings-Nuggets/page2&highlight=kings+nuggets+kareem+time

Post #24

If Price's defense was enough for you to decide on a series, what does that mean for this series?


Cool, but Price will be covering Cousy, who shoots worse/about as well as Adam Morrison. And frankly, I'm not too worried about an Adam Morrison (er Cousy) beating me. So Price shouldn't have to guard anyone. Literally, he can just camp out in the passing lanes watching Cousy throw up brick by brick.

There's no getting around the fact that Cousy shot 38% from the field for his career. You can go on and on about his passing but the fact is a player who shoots that poorly in this era wouldn't even sniff the NBA. Even a guy like Rondo shoots significantly better. And lord knows, he has quite a few flaws in his game.



Our bench has a combination of Peja Stojakovic, Jeff Hornacek, and a mix of our starters such as Bobby Jones and Jack Sikma. Our players are very versatile, with just about everyone being able to play different positions. Another thing I'd like to point out is height. We have Cousy who is 6'1 and then everyone else in our starting lineup is 6'8, 6'9, 6'11 and 7'1. Peja Stojakovic is also 6'9.

Nice. We have versatile players/scorers as well as long as the 7-4' Kareem (again, it's widely known he lied about his height and was closer to 7-4' then 7-2').



I don't see anyway how you have a significant advantage on the bench when our bench has combinations of Rajon Rondo (Apparently better than Chris Paul), Reggie Theus, Jeff Hornacek, Tracy McGrady, Bobby Jones, Peja Stojakovic, Jack Sikma and P.J. Brown who is someone who can come into the game for needed defense and bang with bigger bodies.

Rondo is not better than CP3. Get that **** out of here. T-Mac is not on your bench, neither is Bobby Jones or Sikma.

As for our bench, look up Gus Williams. He was the alpha-dog on the 79 Sonics who won the championship- as in he's led a team to a championship. An incorrect assumption was that Dennis Johnson was the best player on that team. He wasn't, it was Gus who carried them- leading them in scoring in both the regular season and playoffs. He also averaged 20 and 8 in his prime. Steve Smith was also a 20-4-4 peak player. And then there's Carmelo, who is better than any bench player you have. Rondo is worse than each of the 3 players I mentioned above. Hornacek was an underrated good 3rd option but let's not mistake him for Gus, Steve Smith or Melo. Peja was a great player but he's no Melo/Gus.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-26-2013, 12:37 AM
Death Star was used at least seventy times in their write up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZFHTa6TfA

PatsSoxKnicks
06-26-2013, 12:44 AM
I'm honestly too lazy to compile the year by year %'s of shot locations. But just look at this page

http://hoopdata.com/teamshotlocs.aspx

and you can see the league average % from mid-range is around 40%. So if you want to live and die by the worst % shot in the game, please do (not to mention mid-range shots are fouled less often). Meanwhile, Death Star will attack the basket with Melo, Pierce, and KAJ. We'll also get out and run in transition with the slowness of your bigs (Sikma may not be slow per say but he never played on fast paced teams and Shaq is most definitely the type of big you can exploit in transition).

Chronz
06-26-2013, 01:17 AM
Even if Pierce holds his own vs Tmac, in the playoffs it would likely be a different story.

That is all..

Chronz
06-26-2013, 01:30 AM
I highly disagree there. Sloan was a defensive SPECIALIST above being that 18+9 guy in his prime and was awarded as a multi-All NBA Defensive 1st Teamer who was tasked with guarding the likes of Oscar Robertson, Sam Jones, Rick Barry, etc. That's what he did.

Peja wouldn't be the biggest, most athletic nor best scorer he's faced by a long shot. I actually love that matchup for Sloan.

I dont know jack about Sloan, but his stats arent very impressive at all for the era. Chet Walker was the offensive marksman for those Bulls. I have been able to download 1 playoff game of Sloan. It was towards the end of his career tho, when Nate had lost his starting spot on that same Bulls team.

For comparison, in Sloans "Peak" season, hes 7th in OWS. Below lg average PER..... which is fine because he made his impact on D but whats that say about his O?

Chronz
06-26-2013, 01:32 AM
I'm honestly too lazy to compile the year by year %'s of shot locations. But just look at this page

http://hoopdata.com/teamshotlocs.aspx

and you can see the league average % from mid-range is around 40%. So if you want to live and die by the worst % shot in the game, please do (not to mention mid-range shots are fouled less often). Meanwhile, Death Star will attack the basket with Melo, Pierce, and KAJ. We'll also get out and run in transition with the slowness of your bigs (Sikma may not be slow per say but he never played on fast paced teams and Shaq is most definitely the type of big you can exploit in transition).

Midrange shooters were quite abit more accurate back in the day IMO.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-26-2013, 01:40 AM
I dont know jack about Sloan, but his stats arent very impressive at all for the era. Chet Walker was the offensive marksman for those Bulls. I have been able to download 1 playoff game of Sloan. It was towards the end of his career tho, when Nate had lost his starting spot on that same Bulls team.

For comparison, in Sloans "Peak" season, hes 7th in OWS. Below lg average PER..... which is fine because he made his impact on D but whats that say about his O?

I mean we aren't going to repeatedly go to Sloan or anything. Just as an option if Cousy is defending him. I doubt he'd see that many touches though. We have so many better offensive options. The idea was just to exploit Cousy on defense because of him being 6-1'.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-26-2013, 01:44 AM
Midrange shooters were quite abit more accurate back in the day IMO.

Even so, if I have the choice of Minny scoring via mid-range jumper or Minny scoring via Shaq barreling his way in the paint, I'll choose the mid-range jumper. Even if the %'s are higher, we're talking about a what? 20% FG% difference between a Sikma/Jones mid-range jumper vs. a Shaq dunk/shot at the basket. And I think Kareem is capable enough to recover after a double team to get out and challenge a Sikma/Jones jump shot so that it's not completely uncontested.

tredigs
06-26-2013, 01:55 AM
I dont know jack about Sloan, but his stats arent very impressive at all for the era. Chet Walker was the offensive marksman for those Bulls. I have been able to download 1 playoff game of Sloan. It was towards the end of his career tho, when Nate had lost his starting spot on that same Bulls team.

For comparison, in Sloans "Peak" season, hes 7th in OWS. Below lg average PER..... which is fine because he made his impact on D but whats that say about his O?

He was being defended by other guards/forwards of the era. Most of them more athletic than himself. Against Cousy? That's a whole new ball game. But like PSK said, he's still not someone you shoot for, it's just a great option to have against a guy who is essentially a DII level defender of our day.

But yeah, Sloan's true impact was his man D and +rebounding. He was seen as the top perimeter defender in the NBA and was awarded All NBA 1st team Defense the first year it existed (and would've had a couple more added on to his 6 accolades on that end had it existed before that '69 season).

As for the comment that Melo may not be able to hang on the floor with Pierce and co. and not be ball dominant? Have to disagree. He played brilliantly off the ball and as a bench option for Team USA in 2012 en route to Gold as the teams 2nd leading scorer on 54/50/79%'s. Nearly 60% of those shots were from 3 - and if you all remember he was certainly not the primary ball handler.

The_Jamal
06-26-2013, 01:56 AM
I want to change my vote just because of that 1000000000x word essay by PSK.....

tredigs
06-26-2013, 01:58 AM
I want to change my vote just because of that 1000000000x word essay by PSK.....

Battles are fought and lost, cities rebuilt, and world's discovered during the course of PSK's rebuttals.

Killerjug
06-26-2013, 09:19 AM
bump dont know why these were unstickied

Killerjug
06-26-2013, 11:58 AM
bump

Chronz
06-26-2013, 01:01 PM
I tried to talk myself through a Tmac-Shaq victory but yea, Cousy really kills it for me.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2013, 02:31 PM
bump

tredigs
06-26-2013, 02:40 PM
I tried to talk myself through a Tmac-Shaq victory but yea, Cousy really kills it for me.

Welcome to the Dark Side my friend.

Swashcuff
06-27-2013, 11:52 PM
Swash has really been MIA but I'm back gents.... Glad to see we're in the drivers seat here but its a really close one regardless.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-28-2013, 12:10 AM
We won Swashy lol

Swashcuff
06-28-2013, 12:16 AM
Yeah PSK I didn't even realize facepalm myself haha