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View Full Version : Did LeBron carry the worst team to 66 wins?



Chronz
06-25-2013, 01:06 AM
Can you name a situation where a star did more with less around him?

Jtirado16
06-25-2013, 01:08 AM
Oh God another Lebron thread...

still1ballin
06-25-2013, 01:17 AM
Interesting....

CTCUBBIES
06-25-2013, 01:28 AM
If this was even remotely true the Heat would have lost the finals in 5 games.

b-eazy19
06-25-2013, 01:29 AM
Allen Iverson with Philly to the NBA Finals

sunnyice
06-25-2013, 01:29 AM
Oh God another Lebron thread...

He just won a title and is the finals MVP, people are going to talk about him. Deal with it.

lakerfan85
06-25-2013, 01:30 AM
Lol!! Wtf!!

lakerfan85
06-25-2013, 01:37 AM
He just won a title and is the finals MVP, people are going to talk about him. Deal with it.

That's cool to talk about him but why do people have to make stupid *** threads pertaining to him?

mgjohnson7851
06-25-2013, 01:38 AM
Seriously? The worst team? Gtfo!

ThunderousDemon
06-25-2013, 01:51 AM
Hold up, let me get the kleenex and lotion.

Never start a Lebron circle jerk without it! :up:

Guppyfighter
06-25-2013, 01:55 AM
Heat were -2.3 with him off the floor.

IversonIsKrazy
06-25-2013, 02:03 AM
Wait are we talking about the Heat or the Cavs?

IversonIsKrazy
06-25-2013, 02:04 AM
I was assuming Cavs. If so, he has a legitimate argument.

lakerfan85
06-25-2013, 02:05 AM
Wait are we talking about the Heat or the Cavs?

Lol!!

IKnowHoops
06-25-2013, 02:09 AM
If Bron is not on the team, they get beat (4-1) by the bulls in round two. With him Ring.

ThunderousDemon
06-25-2013, 02:10 AM
[SPOILER TAG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lupu94GA9d1r0jmeho1_500.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

lakerfan85
06-25-2013, 02:11 AM
If Bron is not on the team, they get beat (4-1) by the bulls in round two. With him Ring.

If Ray Allen isn't on the team the heat lose to the Spurs in 6...

martin_108
06-25-2013, 02:13 AM
He arguably took the worst team.to the Finals the Cavs back in 07? I think...that alone was an accomplishment

tredigs
06-25-2013, 02:16 AM
It was VERY impressive, let's not look past that that was another pretty damn terrible Eastern Conference, though. The league as a whole was fairly unimpressive. That was a year where Boston would've rolled to the Finals again had Garnett not gone down. But Orlando and their middling cast outside of Dwight (tho' still with an edge on 'Brons) got 'em anyway.

The East really is such an embarrassment in this age.

JOhnnyTHaJet
06-25-2013, 02:19 AM
I dont think that 06-07 Mavs team would be all that great without Dirk who went 67-15, but besides that, its pretty clear that 08-09 Cavs team who won 66 would be a fringe playoff team (probably more likely lotto team without Lebron).

If youre talking about this year, no, the Heat still could have been an 8th seed in my opinion without LeBron.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 02:34 AM
Timmy carrying those '02/03 Spurs with baby Parker/Manu and retiring D. Rob to 60 wins (and the NBA title) through a stacked west that had peak Garnett's Wolves (51-31), Shaq+Kobe (50-32), Dirk+Finley+Nash (60-22), Webber+Peja+Bibby (59-23) and even the waning Malone + Stockton Jazz and young Yao + Francis's Rockets was incredibly more impressive overall. They pretty much had all the best teams in the league in that conference, and most were in his division.

ztilzer31
06-25-2013, 02:40 AM
If Ray Allen isn't on the team the heat lose to the Spurs in 6...

So? Without Derek Fisher or Robert Horry how many Chips do the Lakers have? What about if Donaghy wasn't reffing?

It's comical how people forget other players make shots too. What about the 90's Bulls? Did Michael make all their big shots? Of course not. Stop throwing everything you can to discredit LBJ. Especially when the same stuff happens to your favorite players, and it doesn't discount their abilities at all.

ztilzer31
06-25-2013, 02:46 AM
Tell me where would the Heat be if LBJ sat out game 7? Would Allen "win him the series" then? The minds of the basketball fans on this forum are masked by blind hatred. Guys like you bring the mentality level of this forum.

Wish the Lakers fans would stick to their Kobe only threads, and Lakers threads. Instead of going into LBJ threads and complaining about them.

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 03:03 AM
AI with Philly was the biggest one man show I've ever witnessed reach the Finals. AND he stilled got them a game by going HAM....

Guppyfighter
06-25-2013, 07:06 AM
AI with Philly was the biggest one man show I've ever witnessed reach the Finals. AND he stilled got them a game by going HAM....

Although overshadowed, their game was as rigged as the 02 Lakers-Kings. It was in Donaghy's book.

BigCityofDreams
06-25-2013, 07:20 AM
Tell me where would the Heat be if LBJ sat out game 7? Would Allen "win him the series" then? The minds of the basketball fans on this forum are masked by blind hatred. Guys like you bring the mentality level of this forum.

Wish the Lakers fans would stick to their Kobe only threads, and Lakers threads. Instead of going into LBJ threads and complaining about them.

No one mentioned Kobe or the Lakers besides you. This thread is about LeBron not Kobe. You want Laker fans to stay out but you bring up a player they root for.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 07:22 AM
If Bron is not on the team, they get beat (4-1) by the bulls in round two. With him Ring.

Withought KAJ the Bucks don't make the playoffs on that Championship game. Houston wins neither title w/o Hakeem, it goes on and on.... so?

ldawg
06-25-2013, 07:58 AM
Howard in Orlando, Wade in Miami, Duncan in San Antonio, Iverson in Philly, I mean the list goes on and on. Its a team sport no one player goes to the finals. The competition in the east was not like it is in the west.

DW3421
06-25-2013, 08:46 AM
I think this is the most ridiculous question I've ever heard.

Didn't Wade lead all SG's in fg% at like 52% while scoring over 21 a game and oh yeah 5ast, 5reb and 2stl!That did happen during those 66 wins right?ESPN's NFL crew could answer this one best C'MON MAN!

Big Zo
06-25-2013, 10:01 AM
I'm sure the OP is talking about the Cavs.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 10:11 AM
I think he did as much with less with the 08-09' Cavs. That was the season I thought a superstar did the most with the least in history.

That being said, when you factor in a title, LeBron probably did the most with the least support this year that I can remember. So many attempt to bring up his roster help, while ignoring that his "awesome" help posted PERs of 18.7 and 16.8, WELL below their regular season averages, while posting WS/48 averages of a decent starter, not an all star. LeBron essentially carried the Heat to a ring.

MonroeFAN
06-25-2013, 10:31 AM
obviously talking about the Cavs.

And the answer is an astounding YES.

effen5
06-25-2013, 11:27 AM
Jordan 87-88 winning 50 with rookies in Horace and Pip.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 11:30 AM
LOL

Slap yourself : to anyone who deduced that the Heat are less talented than his Cleveland squads and thus assumed the topic was of them.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 11:31 AM
Jordan 87-88 winning 50 with rookies in Horace and Pip.

A very good choice, well done

Chronz
06-25-2013, 11:33 AM
[SPOILER TAG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lupu94GA9d1r0jmeho1_500.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

Isnt there a copycat ban we can apply here...... GTFO

Chronz
06-25-2013, 11:34 AM
It was VERY impressive, let's not look past that that was another pretty damn terrible Eastern Conference, though. The league as a whole was fairly unimpressive. That was a year where Boston would've rolled to the Finals again had Garnett not gone down. But Orlando and their middling cast outside of Dwight (tho' still with an edge on 'Brons) got 'em anyway.

The East really is such an embarrassment in this age.
Timmy carrying those '02/03 Spurs with baby Parker/Manu and retiring D. Rob to 60 wins (and the NBA title) through a stacked west that had peak Garnett's Wolves (51-31), Shaq+Kobe (50-32), Dirk+Finley+Nash (60-22), Webber+Peja+Bibby (59-23) and even the waning Malone + Stockton Jazz and young Yao + Francis's Rockets was incredibly more impressive overall. They pretty much had all the best teams in the league in that conference, and most were in his division.

Dang .........

Chronz
06-25-2013, 11:38 AM
That being said, when you factor in a title, LeBron probably did the most with the least support this year that I can remember. So many attempt to bring up his roster help, while ignoring that his "awesome" help posted PERs of 18.7 and 16.8, WELL below their regular season averages, while posting WS/48 averages of a decent starter, not an all star. LeBron essentially carried the Heat to a ring.
A topic for another day perhaps but thats much harder to narrow down than regular season teams I think.

Chrisclover
06-25-2013, 11:49 AM
deal with it , fans will pertain to him

Seriously? The worst team? Gtfo!

D-Leethal
06-25-2013, 11:55 AM
I'd say he probably did more with the least amount of talent. But the talent that was there was chosen specifically to mesh with LeBron's skillset and they did that very well. That team had terrific chemistry, defense, rebounding and shooting all over the court, including Big Z.

LeBron would probably be better if you took Wade off his team completely and replaced him with a lights out shooter. Sometimes more talent =/ better situation.

SteBO
06-25-2013, 12:02 PM
I'd say he probably did more with the least amount of talent. But the talent that was there was chosen specifically to mesh with LeBron's skillset and they did that very well. That team had terrific chemistry, defense, rebounding and shooting all over the court, including Big Z.

LeBron would probably be better if you took Wade off his team completely and replaced him with a lights out shooter. Sometimes more talent =/ better situation.
True, but that's not the case here though; talent/skill wins in the NBA which is all LeBron cares about at this point. Sure, his 08-09 casts may have been put together to fit his skillset, but it was never going to be good enough to get anywhere. LeBron just won a title with by far the most talented roster he's ever had around him, and it had tons of guys that fit around exactly what LeBron does best.

SteBO
06-25-2013, 12:07 PM
When it mattered most, the lack of talent around LeBron in Cleveland got brutally exposed by the better teams in Boston and Orlando. They weren't complete trash, but those teams were severly overrated by analysts and fans across the country.

D-Leethal
06-25-2013, 12:10 PM
True, but that's not the case here though; talent/skill wins in the NBA which is all LeBron cares about at this point. Sure, his 08-09 casts may have been put together to fit his skillset, but it was never going to be good enough to get anywhere. LeBron just won a title with by far the most talented roster he's ever had around him, and it had tons of guys that fit around exactly what LeBron does best.

Agreed. I still think if you hypothetically moved Wade for a less talented guy who fit better but was a little less talented (maybe borderline all star Afflalo type), Miami and LeBron would be better. I do think the fact that Miami can win titles despite playing Grade C basketball, and despite having their #1 and #2 guy not really compliment eachother at all, speaks to the talent on that team. They were able to win games in the NBA freakin' Finals where all 3 of LeBron, Wade, and Bosh sucked. That is only possible because their C basketball is better than most teams A basketball.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 12:12 PM
When it mattered most, the lack of talent around LeBron in Cleveland got brutally exposed by the better teams in Boston and Orlando. They weren't complete trash, but those teams were severly overrated by analysts and fans across the country.

exactly right.

Auseranami
06-25-2013, 12:14 PM
I think people discredit the team he had in Cleveland. Yea they were terrible without bron, but the team was built around him. Of course when the vocal point of a team leaves they'll be terrible. They were good enough to have the best record in the league two years in a row. If his teammates were as bad as people make them out to be then they wouldn't have been higher than a 3rd seed.

Stinkyoutsider
06-25-2013, 12:19 PM
Maybe? But Allen Iverson also had to put up with the same thing, and he got his team to the Finals.

Who's supporting cast was worse? Iverson having to rely on guys like Eric Snow and Aaron Mckie or Lebron having to rely on Mo Williams and out of prime Shaq?

Kashmir13579
06-25-2013, 12:22 PM
Its debatable. The fact that its debatable means they should probably trade Chris Bosh.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 12:39 PM
Maybe? But Allen Iverson also had to put up with the same thing, and he got his team to the Finals.

Who's supporting cast was worse? Iverson having to rely on guys like Eric Snow and Aaron Mckie or Lebron having to rely on Mo Williams and out of prime Shaq?

I wouldn't put Iverson on the same page as LeBron dude. Not even close.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 01:07 PM
I think people discredit the team he had in Cleveland. Yea they were terrible without bron, but the team was built around him. Of course when the vocal point of a team leaves they'll be terrible. They were good enough to have the best record in the league two years in a row.
Yes but at the same time lots of teams have been built around superstars without this sort of success. Mo Williams was their only other All-Star ffs, and he only got in because the Comish made it so. Imagine that, not a single coach thought the team with BEST record deserved a 2nd All-Star. And its not like the field was all that deep in the East.



If his teammates were as bad as people make them out to be then they wouldn't have been higher than a 3rd seed.
Worse than made out to be would imply you could think of teams that have fared better per talent. Its somewhat subjective but thats the point. Got any comparables?

Chronz
06-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Maybe? But Allen Iverson also had to put up with the same thing, and he got his team to the Finals.

Who's supporting cast was worse? Iverson having to rely on guys like Eric Snow and Aaron Mckie or Lebron having to rely on Mo Williams and out of prime Shaq?
Same thing? Hardly. First off those Sixers teams werent as good as these Cavs so they are already operating at a deficit. Secondly, for as bad as the East was, it was still markedly better than the East of the early 2K's. Then you add in that the Sixers had the best talent (defensive talent is still talent) for their star, it easy to see why that team had that special run. Notice how the minute their defense declined (due to age) they could no longer compete. That team had less to do with AI vs Bron's contributions and more to do with the defensive support.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-25-2013, 01:12 PM
I think the dynamics of the team have a lot to do with what their regular season record.

Would you say that Lebron under achieved with this years Heat roster due to them winning the same amount of games as that Cavs team? Even though the Heat players are better than the Cavs players up and down the roster. Lebron even had a better season this year then he did in 08/09.

valade16
06-25-2013, 01:20 PM
I am responding solely to the question: Who has done more with less? The 66 wins, while impressive, wasn't the year they went to the Finals.

Here are some PER numbers for some of the better examples:

06/07 Cavs:

LeBron: 24.5
Ilgauskas: 18.0
Gooden: 16.5
Marshall: 15.3
Varejo: 14.4
Hughes: 12.1
Pavlovic: 12.1

Keep in mind the only other player to play 30+ minutes a night was Larry Hughes (37.1 MPG) and his PER is terrible. I also notice that most of their best players were bigs, and they were 2nd in the league in rebounds that year.

02/03 Spurs:

Duncan: 26.9
Robinson: 17.8
Parker: 16.5
Rose: 16.1
Ginobili: 14.7
Jackson: 14.5
Bowen: 9.1

It should be noted Ginobili was only getting 20 MPG and Bowen was getting 33 MPG. It also shows that PER can be a bit misleading because Ilgauskas had a higher one than Robinson, and although Ilgauskas was playing really good and Robinson was "washed up", adding in defense, I still think Robinson was better in these respective years.

93/94 Rockets:

Olajuwan: 25.3
Thorpe: 16.1
Smith: 14.2
Horry: 14.2
Elie: 13.4
Cassell: 13.1
Maxwell: 12.5

It should be noted here that Maxwell was one of 3 players (other being Thorpe) to average 30+ per night and the starting unit of Olajuwan, Thorpe, Smith, Horry, and Maxwell was used most of the year. That is just a terrible supporting unit.

00/01 76ers:

Iverson: 24.0
Mutombo/Ratiliff: 19.6/16.3
Kukoc: 15.3
McKie: 15.1
Snow: 14.0
Lynch: 12.4
Hill: 12.4

Ratliff was traded for Mutombo at the All-Star break. Also, Kukoc played 20 MPG and the team relied primarily on the combo of Iverson/Mutombo/Hill/Lynch/McKie/Snow.

87/88 Bulls:

Jordan: 31.7
Vincent: 16.1
Oakley: 15.4
Corzine: 13.6
Grant: 13.0
Pippen: 12.9
Paxson: 12.3
Sellers: 10.7

Consider Sam Vincent played only 30 games all season and Grant and Pippen only played 20 MPG apiece. Only 3 other players scored in double figures that season (Vincent 13.0, Oakley 12.4, Corzine 10.1).

So to answer the question: who has done more with less:

I would say a good case can be made that Jordan in 87/88 had less but didn't do more (though the argument of playoff competition makes that debatable).

I would also say that Iverson did just as much with just as little (though having a legitimate #2 player makes the "just as little" debatable) in 00/01 with the 76ers.

Olajuwan did more with less with the Rockets in 93/94 (and in a tougher league)

THe 02/03 Spurs have an argument as well.

So is it in the pantheon of great performances? Absolutely. Is it clear and away No. 1? Certainly not.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 01:23 PM
I think the dynamics of the team have a lot to do with what their regular season record.

Would you say that Lebron under achieved with this years Heat roster due to them winning the same amount of games as that Cavs team? Even though the Heat players are better than the Cavs players up and down the roster. Lebron even had a better season this year then he did in 08/09.

Cavs were definitely deeper and went full bore from start to finish. Come playoff time, key vets were injured and depth became less of an advantage.

The dynamics for the Heat are definitely different, I appreciate the contrast but I remind you this isnt about which teams underachieved , but if any team has ever overachieved to the degree Cleveland did.

I dont want to ignore the point you made tho, feel free to expand on it.

Slug3
06-25-2013, 01:41 PM
Only on PSD will there be posts right next to each other where one says lebron had the worse supporting cast and the other says Lebron had the best. Makes me wonder who actually watches basketball.

valade16
06-25-2013, 01:44 PM
Same thing? Hardly. First off those Sixers teams werent as good as these Cavs so they are already operating at a deficit. Secondly, for as bad as the East was, it was still markedly better than the East of the early 2K's. Then you add in that the Sixers had the best talent (defensive talent is still talent) for their star, it easy to see why that team had that special run. Notice how the minute their defense declined (due to age) they could no longer compete. That team had less to do with AI vs Bron's contributions and more to do with the defensive support.

You are completely discrediting the impact Iverson had on that squad. First, think of the enormous pressure of saying to one player "The other 4 guys got the defense, you be the offense". Heck, the other PPG for that season were:

12.4/11.7 Mutombo/Ratliff
11.6 McKie
9.8 Snow
9.6 Hill
8.4 Lynch

That's 52 points from the rest of the starting unit. That is absolutely pathetic for a team that made the Finals. Yes they had an amazing defense, but you still need to score to win games and the 76ers were middle of the pack in that regard (15th of 29 in scoring) which is downright astounding considering the ineptitude of their scoring ability outside Iverson.

Then consider Mutombo/Ratliff have very little post moves to speak of and relied mainly on rebounds and put backs for their baskets. Also, outside of Iverson they only had McKie and Kukoc to shoot 3's reliably, and Kukoc only played in 48 games (and only took 2 3-pointers a game) and McKie shot a paltry 31.2%. The 76ers were 4th worst in 3-pt % and had the 2nd least attempted 3-pointers.

The entire offense of the 76ers literally relied on Iverson. Then we come to the defense. Yes the 76ers had excellent defensive players, but Iverson played his part in that defense as well. The backcourt/wing players were allowed to take chances going for the steal knowing that Mutombo was watching the lane, and Iverson certainly excelled in that area. He led the league in SPG that season (and the next 2) and the other wing/backcourt players all averaged over a steal a game (Snow 1.5, McKie 1.4, Lynch 1.2). Heck, all three of those players best years for SPG came playing on the 76ers, certainly no coincidence.

To try to trivialize what he did during that season is ridiculous.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-25-2013, 01:50 PM
I am responding solely to the question: Who has done more with less? The 66 wins, while impressive, wasn't the year they went to the Finals.

Here are some PER numbers for some of the better examples:

06/07 Cavs:

LeBron: 24.5
Ilgauskas: 18.0
Gooden: 16.5
Marshall: 15.3
Varejo: 14.4
Hughes: 12.1
Pavlovic: 12.1

Keep in mind the only other player to play 30+ minutes a night was Larry Hughes (37.1 MPG) and his PER is terrible. I also notice that most of their best players were bigs, and they were 2nd in the league in rebounds that year.

02/03 Spurs:

Duncan: 26.9
Robinson: 17.8
Parker: 16.5
Rose: 16.1
Ginobili: 14.7
Jackson: 14.5
Bowen: 9.1

It should be noted Ginobili was only getting 20 MPG and Bowen was getting 33 MPG. It also shows that PER can be a bit misleading because Ilgauskas had a higher one than Robinson, and although Ilgauskas was playing really good and Robinson was "washed up", adding in defense, I still think Robinson was better in these respective years.

93/94 Rockets:

Olajuwan: 25.3
Thorpe: 16.1
Smith: 14.2
Horry: 14.2
Elie: 13.4
Cassell: 13.1
Maxwell: 12.5

It should be noted here that Maxwell was one of 3 players (other being Thorpe) to average 30+ per night and the starting unit of Olajuwan, Thorpe, Smith, Horry, and Maxwell was used most of the year. That is just a terrible supporting unit.

00/01 76ers:

Iverson: 24.0
Mutombo/Ratiliff: 19.6/16.3
Kukoc: 15.3
McKie: 15.1
Snow: 14.0
Lynch: 12.4
Hill: 12.4

Ratliff was traded for Mutombo at the All-Star break. Also, Kukoc played 20 MPG and the team relied primarily on the combo of Iverson/Mutombo/Hill/Lynch/McKie/Snow.

87/88 Bulls:

Jordan: 31.7
Vincent: 16.1
Oakley: 15.4
Corzine: 13.6
Grant: 13.0
Pippen: 12.9
Paxson: 12.3
Sellers: 10.7

Consider Sam Vincent played only 30 games all season and Grant and Pippen only played 20 MPG apiece. Only 3 other players scored in double figures that season (Vincent 13.0, Oakley 12.4, Corzine 10.1).

So to answer the question: who has done more with less:

I would say a good case can be made that Jordan in 87/88 had less but didn't do more (though the argument of playoff competition makes that debatable).

I would also say that Iverson did just as much with just as little (though having a legitimate #2 player makes the "just as little" debatable) in 00/01 with the 76ers.

Olajuwan did more with less with the Rockets in 93/94 (and in a tougher league)

THe 02/03 Spurs have an argument as well.

So is it in the pantheon of great performances? Absolutely. Is it clear and away No. 1? Certainly not.

Good research. I would like to add a team.

1994/1995 Spurs were 62-20. They were 5th in defensive rating giving up 105.4 pts per/100. And 5th in offensive rating scoring 111.7 per/100. That is not as good as the 08/09 Cavs who were 3rd in defensive rating giving up 102.4 pts per/100 and 4th in offensive rating scoring 112.4 pts per/100. Although, I will give Lebron all the credit for that high of a offensive rating.

David Robinson PER 29.1 and WS/48 .273

His cast was pretty bad.
Dennis Rodman 16.6 PER .178 WS/48 (49 games)
Sean Elliot 16.0 PER .147 WS/48
Avery Johnson 15.7 PER .128 WS/48
Vinny Del Negro 13.8 PER .138 WS/48
Terry Cummings 13.3 PER .076 WS/48
JR Reid 12.7 PER .106 WS/48

If you compare the respective season Lebron's teammates had versus what DRob's teammates produced, Lebron's teammates were better and had better defensive ratings.

valade16
06-25-2013, 01:54 PM
As to the question of who has led a weaker cast to 66 (or appreciably more than 60) wins, I looked back to 1980 and the only one that comes close is the 06/07 Mavs, and I believe the Cavs were worse outside LeBron.

RiceOnTheRun
06-25-2013, 01:55 PM
That's cool to talk about him but why do people have to make stupid *** threads pertaining to him?

Sigh. All these Lebron = God threads are terrible.

I'm all for Lebron and I think he does have the chance to one day be the GOAT, but why is this even relevant?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-25-2013, 02:19 PM
If you are talking about the Cavs, yes.

If you are talking about the Heat, no, because the Cavs have that title wrapped up.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 02:23 PM
D-Robs Spurs are a good mention

Shlumpledink
06-25-2013, 02:24 PM
I would say Steve Nash in 05-06 when he almost made the nba finals while playing without Amare Stoudemire. Not only that, but he lead them to the best record in the west. That team had Boris Diaw at center and Steve Nash was the main cog to that season. You might say that his other teammates performed phenomenally, but I would argue that Steve Nash was the one that made them elevate their games.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 02:26 PM
You are completely discrediting the impact Iverson had on that squad. First, think of the enormous pressure of saying to one player "The other 4 guys got the defense, you be the offense". Heck, the other PPG for that season were:

12.4/11.7 Mutombo/Ratliff
11.6 McKie
9.8 Snow
9.6 Hill
8.4 Lynch

That's 52 points from the rest of the starting unit. That is absolutely pathetic for a team that made the Finals. Yes they had an amazing defense, but you still need to score to win games and the 76ers were middle of the pack in that regard (15th of 29 in scoring) which is downright astounding considering the ineptitude of their scoring ability outside Iverson.

Then consider Mutombo/Ratliff have very little post moves to speak of and relied mainly on rebounds and put backs for their baskets. Also, outside of Iverson they only had McKie and Kukoc to shoot 3's reliably, and Kukoc only played in 48 games (and only took 2 3-pointers a game) and McKie shot a paltry 31.2%. The 76ers were 4th worst in 3-pt % and had the 2nd least attempted 3-pointers.

The entire offense of the 76ers literally relied on Iverson. Then we come to the defense. Yes the 76ers had excellent defensive players, but Iverson played his part in that defense as well. The backcourt/wing players were allowed to take chances going for the steal knowing that Mutombo was watching the lane, and Iverson certainly excelled in that area. He led the league in SPG that season (and the next 2) and the other wing/backcourt players all averaged over a steal a game (Snow 1.5, McKie 1.4, Lynch 1.2). Heck, all three of those players best years for SPG came playing on the 76ers, certainly no coincidence.

To try to trivialize what he did during that season is ridiculous.

Trying to put it on blast without more mention of that fantastic defense is also somewhat ridiculous. 52 points from their starters is coincidentally nearly the exact same ppg that Miami got from their starters outside of Bron in the regular season. In the playoffs? You can drop that to 43 PPG outside of Bron. Their bench scoring was slightly better, but you can't look past the fact that Lebron was taking just 17.8 fga/g to Iverson's 25.5 on terrible efficiency.
He's not exactly known for making other teammates better, and despite a lack of key offensive support he definitely should've figured out a way to create more than 4.5 apg with a USG% nearing 36%. He wasn't their offense, he was their shooting. Lebron ran the former (regardless of the offensive capabilities of the cast around him he could get them open looks and easy buckets), and that's why he's as great as he is.

Simply put - like Iverson - without Mutombo that team is not getting out of the 1st round, and I think that's lost on people due to the scoring fetish so many have. He was the DPOY and the driving force for getting past some of the bigs that you had to in that age.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-25-2013, 02:32 PM
Cavs were definitely deeper and went full bore from start to finish. Come playoff time, key vets were injured and depth became less of an advantage.

The dynamics for the Heat are definitely different, I appreciate the contrast but I remind you this isnt about which teams underachieved , but if any team has ever overachieved to the degree Cleveland did.

I dont want to ignore the point you made tho, feel free to expand on it.

I would not say that the Cavs were deeper than this years Heat team. If you compare Lebrons second best player on the Heat to the second best player on the Cavs and continue to match up 3rd vs 3rd, 4th vs 4th and so on, you would see that the first match up that the Cavs have the better player would be 10th best player (Sasha Pavlovic) versus this years Heats 10th best player (Norris Cole). Each teams advanced numbers are in the image below

But as far as looking at the names on the roster before the season, yes, Lebron probably got the most out of his teammates in the history of the league.

But since we know how great Lebron is, we knew they would be pretty good. I would say from top to bottom, the 67-15 06/07 Mavs overachieved more than the 08/09 Cavs.

They did not have a star player after Dirk and Dirk is no Lebron. They played in the much tougher west and had a better record than those Cavs
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w592/scrbobby/HeatvsCavs_zpsf39dd0d5.png (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/scrbobby/media/HeatvsCavs_zpsf39dd0d5.png.html)

Lake_Show2416
06-25-2013, 02:59 PM
Iverson had much worse

JordansBulls
06-25-2013, 03:09 PM
Relative to other all time teams that won that many games he probably did. But relative to the league and conference he was in I will say no.

And I am talking about Cleveland 2009. I assumme that is what this thread is about.

majestic
06-25-2013, 03:11 PM
Heat are a 4 seed without lebron. close this stupid thread

h2r09
06-25-2013, 03:13 PM
I would say Steve Nash in 05-06 when he almost made the nba finals while playing without Amare Stoudemire. Not only that, but he lead them to the best record in the west. That team had Boris Diaw at center and Steve Nash was the main cog to that season. You might say that his other teammates performed phenomenally, but I would argue that Steve Nash was the one that made them elevate their games.

They won 12 less games than 66 and that team still had A LOT of very good players. Barbosa, Marion, Diaw,Raja Bell, Kurt tHomas.

Very good team.

valade16
06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
Trying to put it on blast without more mention of that fantastic defense is also somewhat ridiculous. 52 points from their starters is coincidentally nearly the exact same ppg that Miami got from their starters outside of Bron in the regular season. In the playoffs? You can drop that to 43 PPG outside of Bron. Their bench scoring was slightly better, but you can't look past the fact that Lebron was taking just 17.8 fga/g to Iverson's 25.5 on terrible efficiency.
He's not exactly known for making other teammates better, and despite a lack of key offensive support he definitely should've figured out a way to create more than 4.5 apg with a USG% nearing 36%. He wasn't their offense, he was their shooting. Lebron ran the former (regardless of the offensive capabilities of the cast around him he could get them open looks and easy buckets), and that's why he's as great as he is.

Simply put - like Iverson - without Mutombo that team is not getting out of the 1st round, and I think that's lost on people due to the scoring fetish so many have. He was the DPOY and the driving force for getting past some of the bigs that you had to in that age.

So without Mutombo Iverson and those 76ers wouldn't get past the 1st round? Could you explain how they did the year prior? :eyebrow:

Trying to insinuate that Bron's Heat and Iverson's 76ers had comparable offensive support is simply laughable!

Wade and Bosh provided so much more of an offensive help to Bron than anyone on the 76ers that it isn't even close.

Wade averaged 21 PPG
Mutomob and McKie (2nd and 3rd scorers) averaged 23 PPG

Wade and Bosh averaged 37 PPG combined
McKie/Hill/Lynch/Snow averaged 39 PPG combined

Not to mention the 3-point support LeBron gets. Battier, Miller, Allen, and Chalmers all shot over 40% from 3 and took over 3 attempts per game.

Here is each teams PER36 numbers in terms of PPG:

Wade: 22.0
Bosh: 18.1
Allen: 15.3
Anderson: 11.9
Chalmers: 11.6
Miller: 11.2
Cole: 10.1
Battier: 9.5


Kukoc: 14.2
McKie: 13.2
Mutombo: 12.5
Hill: 11.1
Snow: 10.2
Lynch: 9.3

The comparison is not even close. Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen all scored more when on the floor than anyone on the 76ers. And that's not even accounting for the fact that there were only so many points to go around on the Heat and everybodies raw PPG numbers had to drop. Here are some of the Heat's players PPG in the seasons preceding this one:

Wade: 24 PPG the 2 years prior (and 24+ prior to LeBron)
Bosh: 18 PPG the 2 years prior (and 22+ prior to LeBron)
Allen: 14 & 16 PPG 3 years prior (and regular 20+ PPG scorer in his prime)

Here were Iverson's compliments:

Mutombo: 10-13 PPG in 3 years prior (16.6 high in rookie season, never above 14 after)
McKie: 8 PPG year before (only had 3 seasons 10+ PPG)
Snow: 8 PPG year before (only had 3 seasons of 10+ PPG)
Hill: 12 & 8 PPg 2 years prior (only had 5 seasons of 10+ PPG)
Lynch: 8 PPG year prior (never averaged 10+ PPG)

Simply put, many of the Heat's role players know how to put the ball in the hole and were at one point great scorers. Heck, Mike Miller and Rashard Lewis both averaged more PPG in one season than anyone on that 76ers team outside Iverson ever did.

Then if you want to get into the actual analysis of their games it becomes even more laughably bad for the 76ers. There was nobody on that team outside Iverson who could get their own shot. Nobody shot above 50%. Heck, Eric Snow shot worse than Iverson despite only taking 8.7 attempts per game (and only .4 3-pters).

I honestly am completely shocked that anyone would have the audacity to even attempt to compare the offensive capabilities of the Heat and those 76ers.

If you want to mention their amazing defense, fine, go ahead. It was legendarily good. Now find me another team that went to the Finals that had a worse offensive supporting cast.

valade16
06-25-2013, 03:39 PM
^ To add to that, take Mutombo off that 76ers team and you could argue they wouldn't make it past the 1st round of the playoffs.

Take Iverson off that team, do they even win a game?

PG: Snow
SG: McKie
SF: Hill
PF: Lynch
C: Mutombo

How many wins does that team get? 5? 10?

jerellh528
06-25-2013, 03:47 PM
Why is this a thread? Miami is one of the better teams all time, without lebron they probably would still be a top seed in the east.

xxplayerxx23
06-25-2013, 03:49 PM
If the same cavs team minus lebron they win 17 games Max. The team around him sucked

ztilzer31
06-25-2013, 04:00 PM
No one mentioned Kobe or the Lakers besides you. This thread is about LeBron not Kobe. You want Laker fans to stay out but you bring up a player they root for.

If you think I'm trying to compare him to Kobe you're missing the point. All superstars have other players make shots for em. From Duncan to Jerry West there will always be a guy knocking down a buzzer beater that isn't you.... It's a stupid think to continuously bring up.

xxplayerxx23
06-25-2013, 04:10 PM
Why is this a thread? Miami is one of the better teams all time, without lebron they probably would still be a top seed in the east.

Without lebron they fall to the 5th best team in the east. That's being kinda generous

stlbest5in2013
06-25-2013, 04:10 PM
Can you name a situation where a star did more with less around him?




Your legacy continues to grow

tredigs
06-25-2013, 04:18 PM
So without Mutombo Iverson and those 76ers wouldn't get past the 1st round? Could you explain how they did the year prior? :eyebrow:

Trying to insinuate that Bron's Heat and Iverson's 76ers had comparable offensive support is simply laughable!

*long diatribe I don't feel like reading*

First round may or may not be a stretch (though I'd have liked to see them get past Reggie Miller/Jalen Rose/Jermaine O'Neal's Pacers without Dikembe as opposed to the prior years matchup against an Eddie Jones led Hornets. Especially seeing as the Pacers is the team who they lost to in the 2nd round that year).

And I was just using YOUR criteria to show that PPG averages from X players supporting cast is a stupid way to go about looking at an offense. My underlying point was, you said Iverson was their "offense", and that's incorrect. He was their shooter. Their inefficient, high volume shooter. Lebron means much more to an offense (playmaking/scoring/spacing), than Iverson ever did.


^ To add to that, take Mutombo off that 76ers team and you could argue they wouldn't make it past the 1st round of the playoffs.

Take Iverson off that team, do they even win a game?

PG: Snow
SG: McKie
SF: Hill
PF: Lynch
C: Mutombo

How many wins does that team get? 5? 10?
I'll assume this is a joke and let it go.

valade16
06-25-2013, 04:26 PM
First round may or may not be a stretch (though I'd have liked to see them get past Reggie Miller/Jalen Rose/Jermaine O'Neal's Pacers without Dikembe as opposed to the prior years matchup against an Eddie Jones led Hornets. Especially seeing as the Pacers is the team who they lost to in the 2nd round that year).

And I was just using YOUR criteria to show that PPG averages from X players supporting cast is a stupid way to go about looking at an offense. My underlying point was, you said Iverson was their "offense", and that's incorrect. He was their shooter. Their inefficient, high volume shooter. Lebron means much more to an offense (playmaking/scoring/spacing), than Iverson ever did.


I'll assume this is a joke and let it go.


I agree to the bolded, however that point is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. The question was: Who has done more with less. The answer in this instance is Iverson (who I said in the post did just as much with just as little). Whether LeBron is a better player (he is) doesn't matter to the debate at hand.

Iverson still took an incredibly terrible team to the Finals.

As for the last part, it was a little hyperbole, but in all seriousness, how many games does that 00/01 76ers team win without Iverson? I think we can both agree the playoffs would be a distant memory...

tredigs
06-25-2013, 04:38 PM
I agree, however that point is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. The question was: Who has done more with less. The answer in this instance is Iverson (who I said in the post did just as much with just as little). Whether LeBron is a better player (he is) doesn't matter to the debate at hand.

Iverson still took an incredibly terrible team to the Finals.

As for the last part, it was a little hyperbole, but in all seriousness, how many games does that 00/01 76ers team win without Iverson? I think we can both agree the playoffs would be a distant memory...

Who knows how many games the 00/01 win without Iverson, but I do know they went 5-5 in the games he missed. So looks like they're already there. They went 0-1 in the one game Mutombo missed in 02 fwiw. Either way, they suck without either when it comes to the playoffs. Iverson led a terrible OFFENSE to the finals (and he did not lead them to even sniff being a top 10 offensive team) while Mutombo anchored a fantastic DEFENSE to the finals (a top 5 D). That was the teams strength, and that is why they won playoff matchups. Iverson's offense was obviously crucial for their makeup (and the thing that ESPN + fans will parade til the end of days), but they weren't doing **** without that D. And Iverson was the worst defender on the floor despite his incessant gambling of the passing lanes to get his steals (or burnt for easy 3's by the opposition).

Anyway, Rick Barry WON the Finals with a nothing cast. And Timmy went through an incredibly tough West (you know - Shaq+Kobe, Dirk+Nash+Finley, Garnett+Wally, Yao + Francis, etc) en route to a Finals DOMINANCE while anchoring his team in scoring/defense/rebounding AND playmaking. Iverson isn't sniffing that impact on his best day.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 04:43 PM
Why is this a thread? Miami is one of the better teams all time, without lebron they probably would still be a top seed in the east.

seeing as the #3 seed won 49 games, 17 games less, you are probably right. Still doesn't mean much when you consider how huge the gap really was. Without LeBron, the Heat are in no way, shape, or form a contender. They are another decent east team that gets beat in round 2 at best, especially when you factor in what Wade and Bosh looked like come playoffs, compared to the regular season. Their numbers plummeted.

Nick O
06-25-2013, 04:45 PM
interesting...

tredigs
06-25-2013, 04:49 PM
seeing as the #3 seed won 49 games, 17 games less, you are probably right. Still doesn't mean much when you consider how huge the gap really was. Without LeBron, the Heat are in no way, shape, or form a contender. They are another decent east team that gets beat in round 2 at best, especially when you factor in what Wade and Bosh looked like come playoffs, compared to the regular season. Their numbers plummeted.

This season, looking at their inconsistency - agreed. But with a healthy Wade along with Bosh and more shooting from Ray (not even factoring in cap space), I don't see why they can't at least make the ECF, if not the finals and compete against these Spurs (who I think get squashed by OKC with Westbrook).

I don't think they have much of a chance to win titles without a suitable replacement for Wade either.

amos1er
06-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Worst team. Weakest conference. Would have been lucky to win 50 in the west that year. Still 50 in the west with that roster is an accomplishment none the less.

Nick O
06-25-2013, 04:52 PM
. if you mean the cavs. ya sure.. if you mean the heat. they could very well make the finals without lebron . wade + Bosh + Allen

valade16
06-25-2013, 04:56 PM
Who knows how many games the 00/01 win without Iverson, but I do know they went 5-5 in the games he missed. So looks like they're already there. They went 0-1 in the one game Mutombo missed in 02 fwiw. Either way, they suck without either when it comes to the playoffs. Iverson led a terrible OFFENSE to the finals (and he did not lead them to even sniff being a top 10 offensive team) while Mutombo anchored a fantastic DEFENSE to the finals (a top 5 D). That was the teams strength, and that is why they won playoff matchups. Iverson's offense was obviously crucial for their makeup (and the thing that ESPN + fans will parade til the end of days), but they weren't doing **** without that D. And Iverson was the worst defender on the floor despite his incessant gambling of the passing lanes to get his steals (or burnt for easy 3's by the opposition).

Anyway, Rick Barry WON the Finals with a nothing cast. And Timmy went through an incredibly tough West (you know - Shaq+Kobe, Dirk+Nash+Finley, Garnett+Wally, Yao + Francis, etc) en route to a Finals DOMINANCE while anchoring his team in scoring/defense/rebounding AND playmaking. Iverson isn't sniffing that impact on his best day.

first bolded is false. They were 15/29 in PPG (which is average, not terrible) and their Off Rtg was 13/29 (not too far from Top 10)...

second bolded, yes Mutombo anchored an awesome D, however it wasn't all Mutombo. The year before Mutombo they actually had a higher Def Rtg (4th to 5th) than the year with Mutombo. At worst the defense showed little appreciable, statistical difference pre-Mutombo to post Mutombo by season (though I believe intangibly, they were a better D with Mutombo).

What you're doing is crying that the media is downplaying the defensive help of that finals run by downplaying the offensive help Iverson provided. Why can't the statement "Both the Defense and Iverson's ability to score were incredibly important to the title run" be true?

Also, you're completely missing the point of the question. The question is not "who had the biggest impact", the question is who did the most with less. Iverson should be on the short list based on the fact his team had 1 additional above average player (Mutombo - who was a great defensive player) who started and probably only 2 that played significant minutes.

Also, while you insist on pointing out Iverson's terrible FG% (and yes it was terrible) it wasn't like the 76ers were doing much better come playoff time:

McKie: 41.5%
Hill: 40.9%
Snow: 41.4%
Jones: 41.6%

Only guys who shot well in the playoffs were Lynch (48%) and Mutombo (49%), and neither of those guys could actually create their own shot (which is splitting hairs, none of the 76ers outside Iverson could create their own shot).

Also in the playoffs Iverson's APG nearly doubled (3.3 to 6.1) while Eric Snow, the regular season distributor, saw his APG plummet (7.4 to 4.5) despite logging a slightly higher usage rate in the playoffs.

On offense for the 76ers, Iverson was a one man wrecking crew.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 04:59 PM
You are completely discrediting the impact Iverson had on that squad.
By thinking Bron did more for his team? I dont see why....



First, think of the enormous pressure of saying to one player "The other 4 guys got the defense, you be the offense". Heck, the other PPG for that season were:
I dont view it that way. I look at it like this, we tried surrounding AI with other scorers, they didn't play nice so lets just surround him with the best we can without interfering with AI's touches. They did take it to the extreme but the end result was that the TEAM was far better for it. The proof is in the pudding, the Sixers got AI more offensive help in later years but the team never again won 56 games or whatever they got.




12.4/11.7 Mutombo/Ratliff
11.6 McKie
9.8 Snow
9.6 Hill
8.4 Lynch

That's 52 points from the rest of the starting unit. That is absolutely pathetic for a team that made the Finals. Yes they had an amazing defense, but you still need to score to win games and the 76ers were middle of the pack in that regard (15th of 29 in scoring) which is downright astounding considering the ineptitude of their scoring ability outside Iverson.
As Tre has shown, looking at per game rates like that can mislead. Minutes variance aside, whenever you look at a team that won on the strength of its defense to this degree, its offensive statistics are going to be lacking as a whole, thats how they wound up average.

Its a testament to AI that the team was average but its a testament to his support that they won on the STRENGTH of its defense. Thats my point, AI led that team to respectability on one end, his support led him to eliteness on the other.

Those Sixers are also hard to ***** because of the trade. They had a better record with Theo but their offense improved with Mutombo and his defense in the playoffs was invaluable. If you look at several metrics, Mutombo was actually more valuable. If you look at how the team fared when Mutombo wasn't on the court, the Philly defense fell apart more than the offense did without AI.

So I have every reason to deny AI's importance relative to Bron who was without question, the most important/valuable/productive player of his squad.



The entire offense of the 76ers literally relied on Iverson. Then we come to the defense. Yes the 76ers had excellent defensive players, but Iverson played his part in that defense as well. The backcourt/wing players were allowed to take chances going for the steal knowing that Mutombo was watching the lane, and Iverson certainly excelled in that area. He led the league in SPG that season (and the next 2) and the other wing/backcourt players all averaged over a steal a game (Snow 1.5, McKie 1.4, Lynch 1.2). Heck, all three of those players best years for SPG came playing on the 76ers, certainly no coincidence.
Agreed, no coincidence AI had his best steals alongside Snow+Shot blocker.

I disagree that AI played a significant role on that team defensively. Guys who gamble incessantly dont strike me as incredibly valuable defensively, in a scheme like they played, the presence of a rim protector is so much more important that its easy to scoff at a diminutive SG who couldn't defend his own position. The presence of Snow to defend the guys AI was incapable of defending 1 on 1 every possession was more valuable than having AI playing passing lanes and gambling for a few steals.


To try to trivialize what he did during that season is ridiculous.
To say its inferior to Bron's season isn't "trivializing" it.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 05:01 PM
first bolded is false. They were 15/29 in PPG (which is average, not terrible) and their Off Rtg was 13/29 (not too far from Top 10)...

second bolded, yes Mutombo anchored an awesome D, however it wasn't all Mutombo. The year before Mutombo they actually had a higher Def Rtg (4th to 5th) than the year with Mutombo. At worst the defense showed little appreciable, statistical difference pre-Mutombo to post Mutombo by season (though I believe intangibly, they were a better D with Mutombo).

What you're doing is crying that the media is downplaying the defensive help of that finals run by downplaying the offensive help Iverson provided. Why can't the statement "Both the Defense and Iverson's ability to score were incredibly important to the title run" be true?

Also, you're completely missing the point of the question. The question is not "who had the biggest impact", the question is who did the most with less. Iverson should be on the short list based on the fact his team had 1 additional above average player (Mutombo - who was a great defensive player) who started and probably only 2 that played significant minutes.

Also, while you insist on pointing out Iverson's terrible FG% (and yes it was terrible) it wasn't like the 76ers were doing much better come playoff time:

McKie: 41.5%
Hill: 40.9%
Snow: 41.4%
Jones: 41.6%

Only guys who shot well in the playoffs were Lynch (48%) and Mutombo (49%), and neither of those guys could actually create their own shot (which is splitting hairs, none of the 76ers outside Iverson could create their own shot).

Also in the playoffs Iverson's APG nearly doubled (3.3 to 6.1) while Eric Snow, the regular season distributor, saw his APG plummet (7.4 to 4.5) despite logging a slightly higher usage rate in the playoffs.

On offense for the 76ers, Iverson was a one man wrecking crew.

13th-15th is a terrible offense relative to title contenders, and my comment was a compliment to Iverson - not sure why you're taking contention there.

And yes, he lead the least important (still integral obviously) part of that teams dominance and reason for being a title contender to the Finals. Let's not forget that his team would've been smashed out of oblivion far earlier had he played in the WEST*. That's a common theme in this era for one man shows, except for Duncan in '03. Which, again, is the player and team we should be focusing on here.

InsightObjSub
06-25-2013, 05:07 PM
I seriously pity Dirk. Lebron (who I love) gets credit for leading a lottery team, but Dirk here is seen as an overachiever. If you overachieve for a decade, maybe your not actually overachieving but maybe he's just great??!

He's a 25/10 playoff player with 2 bad series in his 10+ straight playoff run. One which was one of the 2 worst officiated series of the 2000's and the other leading one of the worst team of scrubs to a 67 win season and getting shut down when his mentor (Don Nelson) who was able to defend ONE player, bc he knew that team and knew they had no one else that could create on his own (other than Terry - the never been an all-star 6th man, and you want to talk about how Lebron only has Mo?).

PS: seriously Dirk's 2006 Finals fellow starters include Adrian Griffin and Erick Dampier.. ERICK DAMPIER!!

Nick O
06-25-2013, 05:11 PM
I seriously pity Dirk. Lebron (who I love) gets credit for leading a lottery team, but Dirk here is seen as an overachiever. If you overachieve for a decade, maybe your not actually overachieving but maybe he's just great??!

He's a 25/10 playoff player with 2 bad series in his 10+ straight playoff run. One which was one of the 2 worst officiated series of the 2000's and the other leading one of the worst team of scrubs to a 67 win season and getting shut down when his mentor (Don Nelson) who was able to defend ONE player, bc he knew that team and knew they had no one else that could create on his own (other than Terry - the never been an all-star 6th man, and you want to talk about how Lebron only has Mo?).

PS: seriously Dirk's 2006 Finals fellow starters include Adrian Griffin and Erick Dampier.. ERICK DAMPIER!!

Dampier is the GOAT

Chronz
06-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Worst team. Weakest conference. Would have been lucky to win 50 in the west that year. Still 50 in the west with that roster is an accomplishment none the less.
They went 26-4 vs the West that year.

In order to finish with 50 OVERALL wins in the West, that would mean they would have to go 24-28 in the remaining 52 games. 30 of which would still come against the East.

Assuming they go .500 (15-15) against the East (a VERY low assumption, right?) they already have 41 wins.

Essentially they have to go 9-13 in the remaining games vs the West.

So despite going 26-4 vs the very conference you are hyping up, hes suppose to play .500 ball against the Eastern conference and go well below .500 in the remaining Western games?


WTF is wrong with you?

We have far more substantial barometers to account for strength of schedule (among other things). Why ignore them?

valade16
06-25-2013, 05:13 PM
By thinking Bron did more for his team? I dont see why....

I dont view it that way. I look at it like this, we tried surrounding AI with other scorers, they didn't play nice so lets just surround him with the best we can without interfering with AI's touches. They did take it to the extreme but the end result was that the TEAM was far better for it. The proof is in the pudding, the Sixers got AI more offensive help in later years but the team never again won 56 games or whatever they got.

As Tre has shown, looking at per game rates like that can mislead. Minutes variance aside, whenever you look at a team that won on the strength of its defense to this degree, its offensive statistics are going to be lacking as a whole, thats how they wound up average.

Its a testament to AI that the team was average but its a testament to his support that they won on the STRENGTH of its defense. Thats my point, AI led that team to respectability on one end, his support led him to eliteness on the other.

Those Sixers are also hard to ***** because of the trade. They had a better record with Theo but their offense improved with Mutombo and his defense in the playoffs was invaluable. If you look at several metrics, Mutombo was actually more valuable. If you look at how the team fared when Mutombo wasn't on the court, the Philly defense fell apart more than the offense did without AI.

So I have every reason to deny AI's importance relative to Bron who was without question, the most important/valuable/productive player of his squad.

Agreed, no coincidence AI had his best steals alongside Snow+Shot blocker.

I disagree that AI played a significant role on that team defensively. Guys who gamble incessantly dont strike me as incredibly valuable defensively, in a scheme like they played, the presence of a rim protector is so much more important that its easy to scoff at a diminutive SG who couldn't defend his own position. The presence of Snow to defend the guys AI was incapable of defending 1 on 1 every possession was more valuable than having AI playing passing lanes and gambling for a few steals.

To say its inferior to Bron's season isn't "trivializing" it.

That's why in addition to their raw PPG averages I showed their PER36 PPG averages and they were still terrible. Hell, use any metric you want everyone outside of Iverson on that team was below average offensively with the exception of Mutombo...


13th-15th is a terrible offense relative to title contenders, and my comment was a compliment to Iverson - not sure why you're taking contention there.

And yes, he lead the least important (still integral obviously) part of that teams dominance and reason for being a title contender to the Finals. Let's not forget that his team would've been smashed out of oblivion far earlier had he played in the East. That's a common theme in this era for one man shows, except for Duncan in '03. Which, again, is the player and team we should be focusing on here.

I agree it is a terrible rank for a title contender, which is precisely why it is so impressive given how much of the load of that Iverson was asked to carry (which was probably your point).

I assume you mean West? I agree there however you play who is put in front of you and I don't think it's fair to minimize the accomplishment considering the comparison is to Bron's Cavs team who has the exact same point working against them...

And again, both of you are missing the point, it's not about who had a better season, the question was "who did more with less". That's it. You can accomplish more with less and still not do as good overall, it's rare but it does happen.

I listed off a number of seasons where I felt teams and players did as much or more with as little or less than LeBron. It's an opinion, you can decry it all you want but I don't think anybody is going to argue that Iverson's supporting cast during that Finals run was good or even average compared to other teams that have been to the Finals, so it's at least on the short list...

Guppyfighter
06-25-2013, 05:16 PM
Bucks were ****ing screwed by the refs. They should have went to the finals.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 05:27 PM
That's why in addition to their raw PPG averages I showed their PER36 PPG averages and they were still terrible. Hell, use any metric you want everyone outside of Iverson on that team was below average offensively with the exception of Mutombo...



I agree it is a terrible rank for a title contender, which is precisely why it is so impressive given how much of the load of that Iverson was asked to carry (which was probably your point).

I assume you mean West? I agree there however you play who is put in front of you and I don't think it's fair to minimize the accomplishment considering the comparison is to Bron's Cavs team who has the exact same point working against them...

And again, both of you are missing the point, it's not about who had a better season, the question was "who did more with less". That's it. You can accomplish more with less and still not do as good overall, it's rare but it does happen.

I listed off a number of seasons where I felt teams and players did as much or more with as little or less than LeBron. It's an opinion, you can decry it all you want but I don't think anybody is going to argue that Iverson's supporting cast during that Finals run was good or even average compared to other teams that have been to the Finals, so it's at least on the short list...
Yes I meant West, and really we agree on most the points here.

I'm just adjusting a bit for difficulty and singular dominance on both ends with terrible casts (looking at Duncan again here). What Iverson accomplished was undeniably impressive and on a short list, that much you won't see me argue.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 05:37 PM
I would not say that the Cavs were deeper than this years Heat team. If you compare Lebrons second best player on the Heat to the second best player on the Cavs and continue to match up 3rd vs 3rd, 4th vs 4th and so on, you would see that the first match up that the Cavs have the better player would be 10th best player (Sasha Pavlovic) versus this years Heats 10th best player (Norris Cole). Each teams advanced numbers are in the image below
Not sure what Im suppose to be looking at. If you rank the players by various statistics they rank differently. Like if you look at WS, Mo Williams ranks as Brons most productive RS partner.

Wade is obviously the superior player but Mo played 443 more minutes. I would agree that the stats dont tell the whole story with Wade and overrate Mo abit. But I stand by my stance that the Cavs were deeper. The Heat were far more top heavy and with Wade being inconsistent/limited and considering the championship hangover (less incentive to go full bore imo), the potential for a dominant RS is abit lower. That explains some of the difference, but the fact that Bron got that Cleveland team to match the Heat in Wins can point a few ways. Its an interesting discussion but how do we approach it statistically? Which numbers do you want me to focus on?



But as far as looking at the names on the roster before the season, yes, Lebron probably got the most out of his teammates in the history of the league.

But since we know how great Lebron is, we knew they would be pretty good.
Im pretty sure nobody predicted the Cavs blowing up with the simple acquisition of Mo.


I would say from top to bottom, the 67-15 06/07 Mavs overachieved more than the 08/09 Cavs.
They did not have a star player after Dirk and Dirk is no Lebron. They played in the much tougher west and had a better record than those Cavs
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w592/scrbobby/HeatvsCavs_zpsf39dd0d5.png (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/scrbobby/media/HeatvsCavs_zpsf39dd0d5.png.html)
So then Dirk is the guy who did the most with less.

Not a bad choice, Ive seen it argued before. But dont be so sure to sully Dirk's importance to his team (vs Bron). He was the MVP and WS leader (season removed from leading the league in WS/PER), so in terms of his regular season, he was sorta Bron like. Some would argue better than some of Brons years.

And what do you think of Josh Howard/Stack/Jason Terry vs Mo/BigZ/ and whoever you think was the 3rd best sidekick to the star.

Chronz
06-25-2013, 05:49 PM
Lets compare the top examples in various stats, lets throw Kobes 35ppg season and Tmac's 32 for good measure.

What was KG's most valuable season (in terms of team over-achievement)

IKnowHoops
06-25-2013, 08:10 PM
Timmy carrying those '02/03 Spurs with baby Parker/Manu and retiring D. Rob to 60 wins (and the NBA title) through a stacked west that had peak Garnett's Wolves (51-31), Shaq+Kobe (50-32), Dirk+Finley+Nash (60-22), Webber+Peja+Bibby (59-23) and even the waning Malone + Stockton Jazz and young Yao + Francis's Rockets was incredibly more impressive overall. They pretty much had all the best teams in the league in that conference, and most were in his division.

You take Lebron off that Cavs team and take Tim off that spurs team and the Spurs annihilate cleveland in a 4-0 sweep in games that would be like 100-68 type games.

IKnowHoops
06-25-2013, 08:11 PM
If Ray Allen isn't on the team the heat lose to the Spurs in 6...

If Danny Green isn't on the Spurs, Heat win in 5.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 08:15 PM
You take Lebron off that Cavs team and take Tim off that spurs team and the Spurs annihilate cleveland in a 4-0 sweep in games that would be like 100-68 type games.

Laughable. I hugely disagree. Duncan was massively more important to their defense than Lebron was to the Cavs, not to mention leading his team by enormous margins with the 25/15/5 + 3.3blks. Big Z and Varajao would've handled old *** Robinson just fine (outplayed him) and you're getting more out of Mo and West than you are from baby Parker+Manu.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 08:30 PM
The fact that Duncan was doing it against true elite competition who had greats in their primes (Shaq+Kobe, Nash +Dirk, etc) only furthers his case. Lebron's boys lost to D. Howard and company - who would go on to get stomped out by Kobe + Pau. I think D. Rob averaged 5ppg + 5rpg against the Lakers while Duncan went ape ****. Absolutely took their souls in the decisive game 6 with 37 + 16 and dismantled prime Shaq while he was at it. Lebron couldn't have done any more than he did against Orlando, but his impact just couldn't rival what an elite top 5 All Time 2-way big in his prime was capable of on both fronts.

IKnowHoops
06-25-2013, 08:36 PM
Good research. I would like to add a team.

1994/1995 Spurs were 62-20. They were 5th in defensive rating giving up 105.4 pts per/100. And 5th in offensive rating scoring 111.7 per/100. That is not as good as the 08/09 Cavs who were 3rd in defensive rating giving up 102.4 pts per/100 and 4th in offensive rating scoring 112.4 pts per/100. Although, I will give Lebron all the credit for that high of a offensive rating.

David Robinson PER 29.1 and WS/48 .273

His cast was pretty bad.
Dennis Rodman 16.6 PER .178 WS/48 (49 games)
Sean Elliot 16.0 PER .147 WS/48
Avery Johnson 15.7 PER .128 WS/48
Vinny Del Negro 13.8 PER .138 WS/48
Terry Cummings 13.3 PER .076 WS/48
JR Reid 12.7 PER .106 WS/48

If you compare the respective season Lebron's teammates had versus what DRob's teammates produced, Lebron's teammates were better and had better defensive ratings.

Stats like these illustrate how underrated David Robinson was. David and Lebron are kneck and kneck for doing the most with least. David is on my all-time 12 man roster.

amos1er
06-25-2013, 08:43 PM
They went 26-4 vs the West that year.

In order to finish with 50 OVERALL wins in the West, that would mean they would have to go 24-28 in the remaining 52 games. 30 of which would still come against the East.

Assuming they go .500 (15-15) against the East (a VERY low assumption, right?) they already have 41 wins.

Essentially they have to go 9-13 in the remaining games vs the West.

So despite going 26-4 vs the very conference you are hyping up, hes suppose to play .500 ball against the Eastern conference and go well below .500 in the remaining Western games?


WTF is wrong with you?

We have far more substantial barometers to account for strength of schedule (among other things). Why ignore them?

Come on Chronz..try peddling your crap somewhere else. You call me out for ignoring substantial barometers, yet you ignore that fact that it's a lot easier to go 26-4 in the west when you have the advantage of playing the remaining 52 games against weak eastern teams. I would bet that the 2009 western conference contenders would have loved to have nights off playing against sub .500 teams five nights in a row.

So tell me who has the advantage in this scenario...

The Denver Nuggets who just played a hard fought previous 10 games against 50 plus win teams or The Cleveland Cavaliers who just costed through their last 10 games against teams that were mostly lottery bound and sub .500.

The regular season is like a marathon...if you ask one team to jump over more hurdles than the other, than that team is going to be way more exhausted on a nightly basis as a result.

Besides, weren't you just saying the other week how that 2009 Cavs team wasn't a favorite over the Magic in the playoffs that year. How could a team who you think can still be a top 3 seed in the western conference not be the far and clear favorite over a team who it took the one seed Lakers 5 games to demolish?

Shlumpledink
06-25-2013, 09:02 PM
They won 12 less games than 66 and that team still had A LOT of very good players. Barbosa, Marion, Diaw,Raja Bell, Kurt tHomas.

Very good team.

I would only call, of those players, marion as being very good. But he was undersized playing primarily in the post at center or power forward. He had the year of his life. This team had a very exploitable weakness on defense that Steve Nash could counteract with the way he dominated the offense end and tempo of the entire game.

Losing 12 less games is hardly anything to scoff at when Nash is playing in a much stronger conference than Lebron James was and is.

Raja Bell hasn't been able to contribute to any team without Steve Nash.

Kurt THomas only played in 50 games, as well as barbosa.

This was an injury plagued team that Steve Nash lead to the best record in the west which has been vastly superior to the eastern conference as a whole for over a decade.

But I respect your opinion and any opinions to the contrary

BRADfromOZ
06-25-2013, 09:08 PM
Easy, Hakeem in 93-94.

IndiansFan337
06-25-2013, 09:36 PM
Can you name a situation where a star did more with less around him?

How about him leading the Cavs to the best record in the NBA in back-to-back years in 2009 and 2010?

OceanSpray
06-25-2013, 10:19 PM
Let's be honest, you take LeBron and put him into any team in the playoffs, he'll win a ring with them. Just like Miami, you put LeBron in Pacers, Spurs, OKC, Grizzlies, LAL, any team in the playoffs, he would win a ring.

NoahH
06-25-2013, 10:22 PM
If you mean when the Cavs one 66 games then yes I think it was the worst team ever to win 66 games. I'm assuming you aren't talking about the Heat because CLEARLY:

66 win Heat >>>>>> 66 win Cavs

NoahH
06-25-2013, 10:22 PM
Let's be honest, you take LeBron and put him into any team in the playoffs, he'll win a ring with them. Just like Miami, you put LeBron in Pacers, Spurs, OKC, Grizzlies, LAL, any team in the playoffs, he would win a ring.

True dis

Chronz
06-26-2013, 10:25 AM
You call me out for ignoring substantial barometers, yet you ignore that fact that it's a lot easier to go 26-4 in the west when you have the advantage of playing the remaining 52 games against weak eastern teams.
LMFAO thats because on one hand Im talking about respected barometers, the kind of metrics people in the business use. You on the other hand are giving an unverified opinion, that is overwhelmingly not inline with any reasonable projection. This is nothing new when it comes to you. Its not "alot" easier to win such a high% of your games against the conference your hyping and then utterly collapse to the degree you deem necessary to go for 50 wins. Show me a SINGLE barometer that would agree with your extrapolation. Until then, how about YOU go peddle your crap on Laker boards where your ignorance is appreciated.



Besides, weren't you just saying the other week how that 2009 Cavs team wasn't a favorite over the Magic in the playoffs that year.
Nope, I said the Magic were the better/more talented team.



How could a team who you think can still be a top 3 seed in the western conference not be the far and clear favorite over a team who it took the one seed Lakers 5 games to demolish?
LMFAO because I dont use brain dead barometers, I know the historical insignificance. Thats like saying the 08 Hawks were superior to the 08 Lakers, simply because the Hawks pushed the Celtics to 7 while the Lakers only got to 6. Or how about when the 09 Lakers were pushed to 7 by the Yao-Less Rockets?

This doesn't even talk about matchup advantages that are important in the playoffs. So yea, stupid remark all around (par for the course)

valade16
06-26-2013, 11:32 AM
Come on Chronz..try peddling your crap somewhere else. You call me out for ignoring substantial barometers, yet you ignore that fact that it's a lot easier to go 26-4 in the west when you have the advantage of playing the remaining 52 games against weak eastern teams. I would bet that the 2009 western conference contenders would have loved to have nights off playing against sub .500 teams five nights in a row.

I understand what you're getting at. It is reasonable to expect a drop-off in record when facing a tougher schedule.

That being said, C'MON! It is not reasonable to expect a team that went 26-4 to suddenly fall off a cliff in terms of record. Saying they would go like 22-8 over the next iteration is believable, saying they would fall all the way to around .500 is just a reach.

BklynKnicks3
06-26-2013, 11:36 AM
Lebron fans always fish for credit. I agree he did carry the worst team to 66 wins. He also won 2 rings with the most help in nba history

northphillyfan
06-26-2013, 11:40 AM
Lebron fans always fish for credit. I agree he did carry the worst team to 66 wins. He also won 2 rings with the most help in nba history
You are clearly a hater because you have no facts lebron led his team in 9 categories 9!!! There has never been a superstar who was asked to do as much as lebron dose

valade16
06-26-2013, 11:52 AM
You are clearly a hater because you have no facts lebron led his team in 9 categories 9!!! There has never been a superstar who was asked to do as much as lebron dose

That is incorrect.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 11:59 AM
Lebron fans always fish for credit. I agree he did carry the worst team to 66 wins. He also won 2 rings with the most help in nba history

based on wat doe?

but thanks for reminding me there was a thread topic to assess.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 12:00 PM
That is incorrect.
lol

2 extreme sides of the same coin

valade16
06-26-2013, 12:20 PM
lol

2 extreme sides of the same coin

Pretty much all of this "how good is his supporting cast", "how big is his impact", "how does the decision affect his legacy", "how many titles does he need to be greatest ever" is irrelevant to the fact that he's unquestionably the best Basketball player in the league and has been for quite some time.

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors to distract from that fact.

RiLoc
06-26-2013, 12:44 PM
Can you name a situation where a star did more with less around him?If we're going solely on "A star who won 66 games with less around him." I think 2008-09 LeBron did more winning 66 games with top contributors were Mo Williams, Delonte West and Anderson Varejao. That's impressive.

todu82
06-26-2013, 12:55 PM
Miami was far from the worst team but if you're talking about Cleveland then yeah he did a lot for that team.

Chronz
06-26-2013, 01:00 PM
If we're going solely on "A star who won 66 games with less around him." I think 2008-09 LeBron did more winning 66 games with top contributors were Mo Williams, Delonte West and Anderson Varejao. That's impressive.

Yea thats the season I was speaking of. I think this question should be based on tiers tho.

1 guy may have done more than Bron in getting his team to 50 wins than Bron did for his 66 wins. Or something like that.

RiLoc
06-26-2013, 02:15 PM
If we're going solely on "A star who won 66 games with less around him." I think 2008-09 LeBron did more winning 66 games with top contributors were Mo Williams, Delonte West and Anderson Varejao. That's impressive.Yea thats the season I was speaking of. I think this question should be based on tiers tho.

1 guy may have done more than Bron in getting his team to 50 wins than Bron did for his 66 wins. Or something like that.Oops, thought you were talking about this year's team. I think you are correct. 2006-07 Mavs didn't have a very good supporting cast; Terry, Josh Howard and Devin Harris being top contributors outside of Dirk. Difficult to argue that Dirk did more for his team, what is unique about LeBron is contributes in all aspects of the game. Going back through other 66+ win teams before that, it's tough finding anything.

D Roses Bulls
06-29-2013, 07:51 PM
I haven't posted in about a year, maybe over, hello to everyone that knows me, but this and the is Lebron better than kobe and MJ thread is probably the two dumbest threads ive read and caught up on since reading about 10 pages in the last couple days since finally posting this. Does everyone have that short of a memory? Worst team? No! maybe one of the most overrated, that cavs team was picked two years in a row to win the whole thing. so obviously they weren't the worst since after one year getting to the finals even though they were expected to win it, they were picked the next year again. come on psd, ive been gone this long and you still haven't changed?