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hidalgo
06-24-2013, 04:03 AM
now that these finals are over, lets see everyone's top 10 players of all time. where did you rank LeBron before? & where do you rank him now? before i had him number 10 right behind Olajuwon, now i have him #9 (as of now, but he keeps moving up)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

PASS_THE_ROCK
06-24-2013, 04:15 AM
This belongs in the heat forum, with the rest of the lebron stroking. In before close.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 04:21 AM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.

hidalgo
06-24-2013, 04:29 AM
This belongs in the heat forum, with the rest of the lebron stroking. In before close.no, it belongs here, it's an updated top 10 all time. not a LeBron topic

PhillyFaninLA
06-24-2013, 04:32 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. LeBron James
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Bill Russell
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robinson

PhillyFaninLA
06-24-2013, 04:33 AM
no, it belongs here, it's an updated top 10 all time. not a LeBron topic

I'll second this...the mods should take down the post you are quoting for trying to derail a topic.

Chavacano
06-24-2013, 05:15 AM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.

^^ Interesting...

DanG
06-24-2013, 05:15 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Larry Bird
11. LeBron James

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 05:52 AM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.

On average the starting NBA Center in 1965-1966 was taller on average than today's starting centers. Not buying that.

There are three ways to create a list:

1. guys vs their own time - IE how much greater were they than players they faced.

2. Only pick by eras. First splitting point is the ABA merger. You could also argue 4 different eras (off the top of my head): pre-Wilt, pre-Magic, 3rd era, post salary cap.

3: if you had to play the average Championship team since 2005, who would you put on a 12 man team.

Oops, just looked at your list closely. Anyone that has Kobe #2... can't be reasoned with.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 08:33 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Tim Duncan
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Larry Bird
11. LeBron James

wow larry at 10? damn, gotta disagree there. anyways heres mine

jordan
magic
kareem
bill
larry
wilt
shaq
kobe
duncan
bron

xxplayerxx23
06-24-2013, 08:40 AM
Mj
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron

Denverbronco007
06-24-2013, 08:41 AM
"now that these finals are over, lets see everyone's top 10 players of all time. where did you rank LeBron before? & where do you rank him now? before i had him number 10 right behind Olajuwon, now i have him #9 (as of now, but he keeps moving up)"

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon


how is Kobe not in your top ten?

Cavs_Fan24
06-24-2013, 08:43 AM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

Lbj has potetial to move up to #5 with another title or 2 imo.

Chavacano
06-24-2013, 08:44 AM
01. MJ
02. KAJ
03. Magic
04. Wilt
05. Shaq
06. Russell
07. Kobe
08. Duncan
09. Bird
10. Olajuwon
11. LeBron

A couple more consistent dominant showings in the regular season, playoffs and championships and LeBron goes up. It should be interesting how he adapts when he reaches the age of 30, suffers a major injury or when his athleticism declines as most of those currently above him in my list weathered some if not all those storms.

BklynKnicks3
06-24-2013, 08:49 AM
1)Jordan
2)Kobe
3)Bird
4)Magic
5)wilt
6)Kareem
7)Hakeem
8)shaq
9)duncan
10)Russell
11)Lebron
12)Oscar
13)Isiah
14)Barkley
15)Kg
16) stockton
17) wade
18) Dr J
19) Malone
20) Dirk

Reversed86Curse
06-24-2013, 08:57 AM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Oscar

Lebron's not there yet, maybe in another 5 years and 2 titles. He might be #10 now if he won these two w/out two other stars, one who's arguably top 5 in the league.

TheScab
06-24-2013, 08:59 AM
1) Jordan
2) Iverson
3) Magic Johnson
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Shaquille
7) Julius Erving
8)Lebron James
9) Duncan
10) Vince Carter

BklynKnicks3
06-24-2013, 09:01 AM
great point half of me feels that way too. I give him alot more credit for what he did with cavs then for what he did with the heat as crazy as that sounds
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Oscar

Lebron's not there yet, maybe in another 5 years and 2 titles. He might be #10 now if he won these two w/out two other stars, one who's arguably top 5 in the league.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 09:03 AM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Oscar

Lebron's not there yet, maybe in another 5 years and 2 titles. He might be #10 now if he won these two w/out two other stars, one who's arguably top 5 in the league.

top5 whos top 5? a hobbled wade? i don't think so.

koreancabbage
06-24-2013, 09:07 AM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Oscar

Lebron's not there yet, maybe in another 5 years and 2 titles. He might be #10 now if he won these two w/out two other stars, one who's arguably top 5 in the league.

quick question, when was Wade a top 5 player this whole season? or even the last few season?

BklynKnicks3
06-24-2013, 09:07 AM
call him by his real name please #3 wade or just popa wade
top5 whos top 5? a hobbled wade? i don't think so.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 09:11 AM
call him by his real name please #3 wade or just popa wade

still would rather have him over the brick machine team cancer carmelo but still he was not a top 5 player in the playoffs.

bcc
06-24-2013, 09:15 AM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.

Then you don't count.
But thanks for the well-thought-out insight.

4milesperday
06-24-2013, 09:30 AM
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

BklynKnicks3
06-24-2013, 10:07 AM
ya really need to do some research on jordan he shut down isiah thomas and kevin johnson in big moments in the playoffs and had like 46 while doing it. I am not even a mj fan his name should never be mentioned he is mr perfect. Even when he lost early in he got swept early in his career he avged like 47 6 and 5 lol
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

Lo Porto
06-24-2013, 10:21 AM
First off, there is no #1. There is a top 4 who all have a valid #1 argument:
Wilt, Kareem, Russell and MJ

Then in no particular order there are:
Duncan
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Shaq
LeBron

Pierzynski4Prez
06-24-2013, 10:42 AM
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

yea um you clearly never watched any Bulls games in the 90s.

ATX
06-24-2013, 11:02 AM
Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
James
Bryant
Russell

Olajuwon

Swashcuff
06-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

Yup.

Chronz
06-24-2013, 11:55 AM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.
That era doesn't count because you dont know **** about it.

Ask Magic about the time Wilt shut down the lane at like 50 years old when he played with him.

Even if we gave you that handicap and allowed you to only judge a limited time of the NBA, your list is still god awful

Achilles24
06-24-2013, 12:47 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. LeBron James

naps
06-24-2013, 01:22 PM
Something like:

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Russell
Duncan
LeBron
Bird
Hakeem

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 01:27 PM
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

WTF is this. Was Bird, Magic or Barkley (some have him top 10) ever the best defenders on their team?

Jordan was an immense defensive player, what a ridiculous concept.

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 01:29 PM
First off, there is no #1. There is a top 4 who all have a valid #1 argument:
Wilt, Kareem, Russell and MJ

Russell has no business in the top 10. This from a 46 year long fan of the C's that saw him play. Simply no. I've written at least 250 posts on this the past 4 years, go find them. if you care to discuss.

Chronz
06-24-2013, 01:35 PM
Without Pippen, is Jordan the greatest of all time? Dude can score but how can we call him the greatest of someone else on his team does the job of stopping the best player on the other team? Can Jordan stop Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Kevin Durrant? I think only Pippen and Lebron can and they deserve more respect than people are giving them.

Post of the year

MassoDio
06-24-2013, 02:06 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Bill Russell
10. LeBron James

nastynice
06-24-2013, 02:22 PM
I'd put jordan, hakeem, magic, shaq, kareem, wilt in there for sure.

This is terrible, how can someone possibly put someone (lebron) who's not even 30 yrs old yet in a top 10 goat?? thats just ridiculous. The guy isn't even past freakin isiah thomas as far as goat list, how the hell is he consistantly making top 10s? He can get there, let the man finish his career, let's see what else he has in store for us, but don't disrespect the game by putting up in the same category as nba legends.

tredigs
06-24-2013, 02:23 PM
1. Jordan

2. Kareem

3. Magic

4. Larry

5. Wilt

6. Bill

7. Timmy

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. Lebron

11 - 20: Kobe, Oscar, Barkley, K. Malone, D. Rob, M. Malone, Dr. J, West, Garnett, Baylor/Pettit in no order.


I'd put jordan, hakeem, magic, shaq, kareem, wilt in there for sure.

This is terrible, how can someone possibly put someone (lebron) who's not even 30 yrs old yet in a top 10 goat?? thats just ridiculous. The guy isn't even past freakin isiah thomas as far as goat list, how the hell is he consistantly making top 10s? He can get there, let the man finish his career, let's see what else he has in store for us, but don't disrespect the game by putting up in the same category as nba legends.

Even if he retired today, it's a pretty tough sell to leave a 4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP and one of the most statistically dominant players of all time outside of a top 10. I won't disregard him just because his career is not over yet.

nimzboy
06-24-2013, 02:27 PM
How about this becomes a poll?

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 02:29 PM
Top 5 in no particular order with MJ being #1 obviously

MJ
KOBE
KAREEM
MAGIC
WILT

6-10
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Russell and lebron are interchangeable at 10

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 02:31 PM
quick question, when was Wade a top 5 player this whole season? or even the last few season?

Hahaha nice but wade was a top 5 player last year and was for a good 5-7 years, not this year though he was borderline top 10

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Funny how only lebron fans have Kobe outside the top 10 and lebron borderline top 5 hahaha

tredigs
06-24-2013, 02:37 PM
For example, when Jordan was done with his 9th season (before his 1st retirement at the age of 29 and one less season than Lebron's at) and had 3 MVP's, 3 straight FMVP's, a DPOY award and just finished his 7th straight scoring title while also leading the league in both Win Shares + PER for those 7 consecutive seasons, would you have him outside the top 10 simply because he wasn't 30? Of course not. And we can do the same argument for Kareem and his 5 MVP's + Finals MVP and scoring + defensive dominance by 30.

And while Lebron's not quite on that level, he's earned a very solid top 10 argument at this point.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 02:42 PM
Funny how only lebron fans have Kobe outside the top 10 and lebron borderline top 5 hahaha

lol funny and you're the only one with kobe at 2? lmao, i think most people had kobe 7-8. most kobe fans 6or 7, you're the only one who has the man that high.

the avenger
06-24-2013, 02:44 PM
1 Jordan
2 Chamberlain
3 Abdul-Jabbar
4 Bird
5 O'Neal
6 Johnson
7 Robertson
8 Russell
9 James
10 Bryant

11 Olajuwon
12 Duncan
13 West
14 Baylor
15 M Malone
16 Erving
17 Barkley
18 K Malone
19 Pettit
20 Garnett

bucketss
06-24-2013, 02:51 PM
I'd put jordan, hakeem, magic, shaq, kareem, wilt in there for sure.

This is terrible, how can someone possibly put someone (lebron) who's not even 30 yrs old yet in a top 10 goat?? thats just ridiculous. The guy isn't even past freakin isiah thomas as far as goat list, how the hell is he consistantly making top 10s? He can get there, let the man finish his career, let's see what else he has in store for us, but don't disrespect the game by putting up in the same category as nba legends.

when the legends themselves are doing it, than how can it possibly be disrespecting the game.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 02:52 PM
lol funny and you're the only one with kobe at 2? lmao, i think most people had kobe 7-8. most kobe fans 6or 7, you're the only one who has the man that high.

Look at it again I said the top 5 in no particular order besides MJ Being #1 so no I don't have Kobe #2

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 02:53 PM
lol funny and you're the only one with kobe at 2? lmao, i think most people had kobe 7-8. most kobe fans 6or 7, you're the only one who has the man that high.

Most all time legends that have played the game have Kobe top 5 so idk why your tripping

Tony_Starks
06-24-2013, 03:10 PM
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Dr J

jerellh528
06-24-2013, 03:17 PM
Reading this I've read people say, lebron has a chance to move up with a title or two etc.. What happens to kobe if he wins a title or two with a fmvp or two? he's already said he is willing to pay 3-4 more years. Its not too farfetched, where then does kobe rank? He did just come off a top 5 nba player season, nothing to scoff at.. Same with duncan he is stll playing at a high level, not only lebron is still playing ya know.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Reading this I've read people say, lebron has a chance to move up with a title or two etc.. What happens to kobe if he wins a title or two with a fmvp or two? he's already said he is willing to pay 3-4 more years. Its not too farfetched, where then does kobe rank? He did just come off a top 5 nba player season, nothing to scoff at.. Same with duncan he is stll playing at a high level, not only lebron is still playing ya know.

Kobe no doubt would be top 5 in everyone's mind with 1 more fmvp and top 3 with 2 more!

pebloemer
06-24-2013, 03:24 PM
Surprised Oscar Robertson isn't getting much attention on the lists. Tough to compare so many great players between different eras, but I guess the lack of titles pushes him back compared to the other greats.

Chacarron
06-24-2013, 03:25 PM
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3) Magic Johnson
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Tim Duncan
8) Hakeem Olajuwon
9) Kobe Bryant
10) Lebron James

bucketss
06-24-2013, 03:40 PM
Reading this I've read people say, lebron has a chance to move up with a title or two etc.. What happens to kobe if he wins a title or two with a fmvp or two? he's already said he is willing to pay 3-4 more years. Its not too farfetched, where then does kobe rank? He did just come off a top 5 nba player season, nothing to scoff at.. Same with duncan he is stll playing at a high level, not only lebron is still playing ya know.

duncan was being talked about being top 5 after winning so i would assume, depending on his performance he takes a pretty good leap.


MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Dr J

lolz dr.j thats new.

jerellh528
06-24-2013, 03:48 PM
I'd put jordan, hakeem, magic, shaq, kareem, wilt in there for sure.

This is terrible, how can someone possibly put someone (lebron) who's not even 30 yrs old yet in a top 10 goat?? thats just ridiculous. The guy isn't even past freakin isiah thomas as far as goat list, how the hell is he consistantly making top 10s? He can get there, let the man finish his career, let's see what else he has in store for us, but don't disrespect the game by putting up in the same category as nba legends.

Some put him in top 10 because they're so eager to categorize players and 10 is a round number. 12-15 is not. Lebron should one day be there, but not right now. Most people would agree bird's career was shorter than other greats but he still has 4 years on lebron. If bird is at the tail end of most people's top 10 because of longevity, why is lebron already in some people's top 10? Because we have short term memory and just love to anoint players as the next this, the next that, top 10 etc.. It's the nature of sports, whatever though. I usually just laugh a little when i see it.

JerseyPalahniuk
06-24-2013, 03:58 PM
Going through this lists if I see Kobe in the top 3, I immediately stop reading.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 04:12 PM
people getting butt hurt because people have him in their top ten, not top 5, not being called the goat, but top ten. smh

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 04:26 PM
Kobe is top 2 imo because of what he has achieved in the NBA. Stats and all, he definitely has the credentials.

tredigs
06-24-2013, 04:33 PM
Ocean Spray, embarrassing himself in the NBA forum once again.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 04:38 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Bird

Note: I am simply of the notion that Bill Russell is overrated. While an all time winner, and great defensive player, I simply don't rank him as high as almost anyone because of the ridiculous amount of help he had in a poorly competitive NBA, and the fact that he was such a liability on offense.

Bird is 2-3 spots higher had he had a longer career.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 04:39 PM
Ocean Spray, embarrassing himself in the NBA forum once again.

tredigs, a 1940 born child who can't get over the past and realize that NBA back then was WEAK.

tredigs
06-24-2013, 04:45 PM
tredigs, a 1940 born child who can't get over the past and realize that NBA back then was WEAK.

Damn, I should start collecting my Social Security already.

Why don't you run a quick breakdown for Kobe's argument at being 4 slots ahead of KAJ and at #2 on your list?

This should be entertaining.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Damn, I should start collecting my Social Security already.

Why don't you run a quick breakdown for Kobe's argument at being 4 slots ahead of KAJ and at #2 on your list?

This should be entertaining.

I don't think Kareem played against the best centers. He would get destroyed by Shaq. You need to stop being so damn nostalgic. Stop following the hype, you probably think Jordan is the best because everyone else says so. If no one mentions a thing about Jordan, you'd probably have Russell/Wilt on your #1/#2. What part of they played in a WATERED DOWN league don't you understand?

tredigs
06-24-2013, 04:55 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Bird

Note: I am simply of the notion that Bill Russell is overrated. While an all time winner, and great defensive player, I simply don't rank him as high as almost anyone because of the ridiculous amount of help he had in a poorly competitive NBA, and the fact that he was such a liability on offense.

Bird is 2-3 spots higher had he had a longer career.

Is an elite offensive rebounder, great outlet/post passer and someone who will get you 15-20 ppg in the playoffs (where you did indeed face the other top bigs) really "such an offensive liability" though? When somebody is on the short list for GOAT on defense, rebounding + shot-blocking and by all accounts leadership, I'm willing to look past certain liabilities offensively, especially when I feel they are exaggerated.

I mean we're talking about a guy who won 5 MVP's and led the league in Defensive Win Shares for an entire decade straight. Probably would have won 8-10 DPOY awards had it existed before being named after him. Why don't we harp on Magic more for not being an elite defender? I'd argue Russell's offense was more effective than Magic's D, and you could certainly argue that Russell's Defense + rebounding was more dominant than Magic's offense as well.


I don't think Kareem played against the best centers. He would get destroyed by Shaq. You need to stop being so damn nostalgic. Stop following the hype, you probably think Jordan is the best because everyone else says so. If no one mentions a thing about Jordan, you'd probably have Russell/Wilt on your #1/#2. What part of they played in a WATERED DOWN league don't you understand?

Neither Shaq nor KAJ would be able to stop the other. And Kareem went against Wilt, M. Malone, Hakeem, Bill Walton at his peak, etc. Both Walton and Wilt say they could not handle KAJ 1 v 1, and there are many players who consider him the GOAT. The guy was putting up 26/4/6 on 57/79% as a 38 yr old in the late 80's playoffs against Artis Gilmore, Perkins and the Hakeem/Sampson Rockets (that a watered down era too, junior?). The bottom line is that KAJ would absolutely destroy in this current era, and his 2 way dominance kills anything Kobe was ever capable of. That's ignoring all his accolades and per game stats (forget his records) that just decimate Kobe's.

jerellh528
06-24-2013, 04:56 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Bird

Note: I am simply of the notion that Bill Russell is overrated. While an all time winner, and great defensive player, I simply don't rank him as high as almost anyone because of the ridiculous amount of help he had in a poorly competitive NBA, and the fact that he was such a liability on offense.

Bird is 2-3 spots higher had he had a longer career.

you have bird lower because of longevity, yet Bird's career was 4 or 5 years longer than lebron's current. Yet you have bron ahead of bird? Is bron THAT much better than bird in your estimation for you to do so?

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 05:00 PM
you have bird lower because of longevity, yet Bird's career was 4 or 5 years longer than lebron's current. Yet you have bron ahead of bird? Is bron THAT much better than bird in your estimation for you to do so?

Larry's first couple of years and last couple of years weren't impressive. His ultimate prime was around 4 seasons, that was all. Not to mention Larry only played 2 more seasons than LeBron, not 4.

MinnesotaFtw
06-24-2013, 05:04 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Lebron James
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem

Before this year, I would've had Tim at 7, Kobe at 8, Lebron at 9. With another 2 rings, I think Lebron would be my #1. If Kobe gets another ring and is an integral part, He'd be right there too.

jerellh528
06-24-2013, 05:06 PM
Larry's first couple of years and last couple of years weren't impressive. His ultimate prime was around 4 seasons, that was all. Not to mention Larry only played 2 more seasons than LeBron, not 4.

You're right, it was 3 seasons since he only played 6 games in one. He was impressive every year, actually his first couple seasons are arguable to be more impressive than lebron's first couple yrs.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 05:12 PM
Is an elite offensive rebounder, great outlet/post passer and someone who will get you 15-20 ppg in the playoffs (where you did indeed face the other top bigs) really "such an offensive liability" though? When somebody is on the short list for GOAT on defense, rebounding + shot-blocking and by all accounts leadership, I'm willing to look past certain liabilities offensively, especially when I feel they are exaggerated.

I mean we're talking about a guy who won 5 MVP's and led the league in Defensive Win Shares for an entire decade straight. Probably would have won 8-10 DPOY awards had it existed before being named after him. Why don't we harp on Magic more for not being an elite defender? I'd argue Russell's offense was more effective than Magic's D, and you could certainly argue that Russell's Defense + rebounding was more dominant than Magic's offense as well.



Neither Shaq nor KAJ would be able to stop the other. And Kareem went against Wilt, M. Malone, Hakeem, Bill Walton at his peak, etc. Both Walton and Wilt say they could not handle KAJ 1 v 1, and there are many players who consider him the GOAT. The guy was putting up 26/4/6 on 57/79% as a 38 yr old in the late 80's playoffs against Artis Gilmore, Perkins and the Hakeem/Sampson Rockets (that a watered down era too, junior?). The bottom line is that KAJ would absolutely destroy in this current era, and his 2 way dominance kills anything Kobe was ever capable of. That's ignoring all his accolades that just decimate Kobe's.

KAJ went against a Wilt who wasn't even in his prime. He went against Hakeem, who was just 3 years into the league. He went against M.Malone, Bill Walton, neither of them would be top 10 in anyone's list. Wtf are you talking about, seriously. 26/4/6, when the hell did he average those numbers in the late 80's? WHAT are YOU seriously talking about. You got your stuff mixed up, pal. Also, you seem to forget that KAJ won just one ring in his prime before Magic and Worthy came along.

As for Bill, he won rings as a player coach. Put it into this way, take Pop out of the Spurs, do you think Duncan can become the player coach for that team and still win? Give me a break, Bill won as a player coach because it didn't matter who the coach was, they were just a stacked team that was better than everyone else.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 05:14 PM
You're right, it was 3 seasons since he only played 6 games in one. He was impressive every year, actually his first couple seasons are arguable to be more impressive than lebron's first couple yrs.

I don't think he was better, to be honest. Larry's prime was definitely comparable to LeBron's prime but Larry wasn't a good defender. LeBron has been impressive ever since the NBA, Larry had a short stint of seasons in which he was really remarkable. Not to mention James was only 18 or 19 coming to the NBA, he was very young and still put up some of the highest numbers for a player just into the NBA.

tredigs
06-24-2013, 05:29 PM
KAJ went against a Wilt who wasn't even in his prime. He went against Hakeem, who was just 3 years into the league. He went against M.Malone, Bill Walton, neither of them would be top 10 in anyone's list. Wtf are you talking about, seriously. 26/4/6, when the hell did he average those numbers in the late 80's? WHAT are YOU seriously talking about. You got your stuff mixed up, pal.

As for Bill, he won rings as a player coach. Put it into this way, take Pop out of the Spurs, do you think Duncan can become the player coach for that team and still win? Give me a break, Bill won as a player coach because it didn't matter who the coach was, they were just a stacked team that was better than everyone else.
Wilt was an iron man and still crushing in the league when KAJ got there. He was younger than Kareem was when KAJ was still winning Finals MVP's and yes - putting up 26/4/6 in the late 80's playoffs against those bigs. 85-86 Playoffs - 38 yrs old and putting up that level of production. The prior year? He was Finals MVP. At 35 he was still leading the playoffs (Finals run) in points + blocks at 27/8/3 + 1.1stl & 3.7blks. In his 20's those point totals were in the 30's and rpg in the mid teens. At 38, in those Golden ERA late 80's with Magic/Bird/Jordan/Barkley/Hakeem/Sampson/McHale/Malone/Parish/BadBoy Pistons, etc etc, he was still top 5-10 in MVP voting, PER, WinShares (offensive and defensive) and making the All NBA 1st team.

Stop embarrassing yourself with this garbage that these players couldn't hack it in this NBA. And it's funny to me that you think I'm some 40 yr old simply because I know wtf I'm talking about with different generations.

DanG
06-24-2013, 05:31 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Lebron James
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem

Before this year, I would've had Tim at 7, Kobe at 8, Lebron at 9. With another 2 rings, I think Lebron would be my #1. If Kobe gets another ring and is an integral part, He'd be right there too.


No, the GOAT would still be MJ and it wouldn't even be really close with LeBron.

DanG
06-24-2013, 05:32 PM
double post.

Chronz
06-24-2013, 05:40 PM
Ocean Spray, embarrassing himself in the NBA forum once again.

LOL what kind of defense is this....

Kobe is top 2 imo because of what he has achieved in the NBA. Stats and all, he definitely has the credentials.

Talk about speaking in generalities.

You could literally swap Kobes name with any great and provide this sort of defense.

This guy is great because of what he did in the NBA (is there some other league we are suppose to be looking at?) Stats and all (lmfao) he definitely has the credentials.

(FACEPALMXINFINITY)

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 05:46 PM
you have bird lower because of longevity, yet Bird's career was 4 or 5 years longer than lebron's current. Yet you have bron ahead of bird? Is bron THAT much better than bird in your estimation for you to do so?

Yes, he is at his peak, which he currently is at. Elite in every part of the game. LeBron, with longevity, will shoot into the top 5 for sure.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 05:49 PM
Is an elite offensive rebounder, great outlet/post passer and someone who will get you 15-20 ppg in the playoffs (where you did indeed face the other top bigs) really "such an offensive liability" though? When somebody is on the short list for GOAT on defense, rebounding + shot-blocking and by all accounts leadership, I'm willing to look past certain liabilities offensively, especially when I feel they are exaggerated.

I mean we're talking about a guy who won 5 MVP's and led the league in Defensive Win Shares for an entire decade straight. Probably would have won 8-10 DPOY awards had it existed before being named after him. Why don't we harp on Magic more for not being an elite defender? I'd argue Russell's offense was more effective than Magic's D, and you could certainly argue that Russell's Defense + rebounding was more dominant than Magic's offense as well.


I think his awards and chips are slightly watered down when comparing to the other all timers, simply because he played on the most stacked teams in history (on paper it can't be argued), and was simply the best player on a machine.

I think he is a great player, but individually, I just don't have him in my top 10.

In the end, Russell is an all timer, and I am penalizing him for two things he can't control:

Playing in an era with minimal competition for much of it.
Not being as well rounded as some of the others in my top 10.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 05:55 PM
Wilt was an iron man and still crushing in the league when KAJ got there. He was younger than Kareem was when KAJ was still winning Finals MVP's and yes - putting up 26/4/6 in the late 80's playoffs against those bigs. 85-86 Playoffs - 38 yrs old and putting up that level of production. The prior year? He was Finals MVP. At 35 he was still leading the playoffs (Finals run) in points + blocks at 27/8/3 + 1.1stl & 3.7blks. In his 20's those point totals were in the 30's and rpg in the mid teens. At 38, in those Golden ERA late 80's with Magic/Bird/Jordan/Barkley/Hakeem/Sampson/McHale/Malone/Parish/BadBoy Pistons, etc etc, he was still top 5-10 in MVP voting, PER, WinShares (offensive and defensive) and making the All NBA 1st team.

Stop embarrassing yourself with this garbage that these players couldn't hack it in this NBA. And it's funny to me that you think I'm some 40 yr old simply because I know wtf I'm talking about with different generations.

Wow, you are something special. Hakeem averaged 31,11 rebounds, and 4 blocks against Kareem. Last I checked, 31,11,4 is better than 26,4,6. Kareem didn't beat him at anything, you are officially a troll. Wilt wasn't even close to his prime and I don't even like comparing Kareem to Wilt because Kareem was obviously the better player. Wilt along with Russell were just stuffing their stats against a weakened NBA league. 1990's was far more competitive than 1980's, by a long shot. Once again, you're the one embarrassing yourself. James Donaldson, Artis Gilmore. Those were the centers Kareem went up against? If that's your proof, I rest my case. All you proved was that Kareem managed to put up huge numbers against James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore. You also pointed that Kareem was top 5-10 in the MVP voting, but who else would NBA vote for? It was still pretty weak in that time as well.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 05:56 PM
LOL what kind of defense is this....

Kobe is top 2 imo because of what he has achieved in the NBA. Stats and all, he definitely has the credentials.

Talk about speaking in generalities.

You could literally swap Kobes name with any great and provide this sort of defense.

This guy is great because of what he did in the NBA (is there some other league we are suppose to be looking at?) Stats and all (lmfao) he definitely has the credentials.

(FACEPALMXINFINITY)

CHronz defending Tredigs, nothing new here. Magic never achieved more than Kobe. Kareem never played against the best of the best.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 05:58 PM
Wow, you are something special. Hakeem averaged 31,11 rebounds, and 4 blocks against Kareem. Last I checked, 31,11,4 is better than 26,4,6. Kareem didn't beat him at anything, you are officially a troll. Wilt wasn't even close to his prime and I don't even like comparing Kareem to Wilt because Kareem was obviously the better player. Wilt along with Russell were just stuffing their stats against a weakened NBA league. 1990's was far more competitive than 1980's, by a long shot. Once again, you're the one embarrassing yourself. James Donaldson, Artis Gilmore. Those were the centers Kareem went up against? If that's your proof, I rest my case. All you proved was that Kareem managed to put up huge numbers against James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore. You also pointed that Kareem was top 5-10 in the MVP voting, but who else would NBA vote for? It was still pretty weak in that time as well.

where are you getting those numbers?

And a prime KAJ is better dude.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-24-2013, 06:16 PM
1. Jordan

2. Kareem

3. Magic

4. Larry

5. Wilt

6. Bill

7. Timmy

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. Lebron

11 - 20: Kobe, Oscar, Barkley, K. Malone, D. Rob, M. Malone, Dr. J, West, Garnett, Baylor/Pettit in no order.



Even if he retired today, it's a pretty tough sell to leave a 4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP and one of the most statistically dominant players of all time outside of a top 10. I won't disregard him just because his career is not over yet.
I really like this list. I'd have Hakeem over Shaq but it's interchangeable.

Funny how only lebron fans have Kobe outside the top 10 and lebron borderline top 5 hahaha
Just like how Kobe fans have Kobe in the top 5 and LeBron outside of the top 10...

Reading this I've read people say, lebron has a chance to move up with a title or two etc.. What happens to kobe if he wins a title or two with a fmvp or two? he's already said he is willing to pay 3-4 more years. Its not too farfetched, where then does kobe rank? He did just come off a top 5 nba player season, nothing to scoff at.. Same with duncan he is stll playing at a high level, not only lebron is still playing ya know.
If Kobe can win another one, he'd probably re-enter my top 10 and Duncan would possibly become top 5. Problem is with Kobe, he's never going to win another MVP and with the way things are in LA combing the fact that he's declining and coming off an achilles injury, he's probably never going to make it back to the Finals ever again.

Teeboy1487
06-24-2013, 06:18 PM
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Lebron

tredigs
06-24-2013, 06:18 PM
Wow, you are something special. Hakeem averaged 31,11 rebounds, and 4 blocks against Kareem. Last I checked, 31,11,4 is better than 26,4,6. Kareem didn't beat him at anything, you are officially a troll. Wilt wasn't even close to his prime and I don't even like comparing Kareem to Wilt because Kareem was obviously the better player. Wilt along with Russell were just stuffing their stats against a weakened NBA league. 1990's was far more competitive than 1980's, by a long shot. Once again, you're the one embarrassing yourself. James Donaldson, Artis Gilmore. Those were the centers Kareem went up against? If that's your proof, I rest my case. All you proved was that Kareem managed to put up huge numbers against James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore. You also pointed that Kareem was top 5-10 in the MVP voting, but who else would NBA vote for? It was still pretty weak in that time as well.

I love that you're directly comparing the numbers of young Hakeem (who, like all players then, actually went to college for 3+ years and came out as a much more polished product than we currently see) versus a 37-40 yr old Kareem. You said Kareem never put up those numbers as a 38 yr old. As usual, I proved you wrong.

Now you're going on to say that Artis Gilmore (one of many names I provided, and not nearly all of them) was some middling player. Gilmore would be among the very high end of centers in this NBA, even at that age.

And you conclude with saying the late 80's were a weak basketball era. You truly have no hope. I am done with you. Take up analyzing cricket or something. Maybe you'll find your calling.

NYKalltheway
06-24-2013, 06:19 PM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. James
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt


As you can see, I don't like including old players. I think that era shouldn't count because centers were freaking 6"7 for God's sake. I know Wilt was ahead of his time, but it was just way too easy.

As you can see, I can't anymore. My eyes hurt.

3RDASYSTEM
06-24-2013, 06:22 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron
Kobe
Bird

Note: I am simply of the notion that Bill Russell is overrated. While an all time winner, and great defensive player, I simply don't rank him as high as almost anyone because of the ridiculous amount of help he had in a poorly competitive NBA, and the fact that he was such a liability on offense.

Bird is 2-3 spots higher had he had a longer career.

The way everybody scream about his 5 rings you would sware bean was the new RUSSELL

talk about overrated, you said RUSSELL is but have a backupguard turned starter in your top 10 greatest all time, nothing wrong with that I guess since you basically swapped 1 overrated for the other

now make a best top group all time, it can be 1-10 or 1-15 or 1-20 to be really fair

longevity doesn't move you up in or down, go ask FAVRE and also MANNING when he retires

WILT needed help with a young ALINCDOR, had they both matched up in they youth it would be like nothing we've ever seen, they had battles when WILT was old big man so just imagine the younger version battles

and how was ALINCDOR better than WILT? because of a sky hook?

WILT lost three straight game 7's against the most stacked team in league history, that's individual dominance of none other just to get it to 7 games

once you narrow it down to DREAM-SHAQ-WILT-RUSSELL-ALCINDOR its pretty much who's left after being and you still make out with a best of the best type player, you can even throw a few more names out there

tredigs
06-24-2013, 06:29 PM
I think his awards and chips are slightly watered down when comparing to the other all timers, simply because he played on the most stacked teams in history (on paper it can't be argued), and was simply the best player on a machine.

I think he is a great player, but individually, I just don't have him in my top 10.

In the end, Russell is an all timer, and I am penalizing him for two things he can't control:

Playing in an era with minimal competition for much of it.
Not being as well rounded as some of the others in my top 10.

Yeah, clearly his awards and ships are watered down, but his production (adjusted obviously) is still just phenomenal.

He's the toughest of any player to rank, but with some of the comments I read on Bill I've definitely decided to beat the war drums on his behalf a bit more. And there's no doubt on the well roundedness when compared to other GOATs like MJ/KAJ/Timmy/Hakeem, but that's why I bring up Magic and Bird to an extent as well. It's too bad we didn't get to see him for a year or two on lesser teams through his prime (especially if it were in another era), I've always wanted to see how that would play out. I think it's better than some would expect, but c'est la vie.

3RDASYSTEM
06-24-2013, 06:31 PM
I think his awards and chips are slightly watered down when comparing to the other all timers, simply because he played on the most stacked teams in history (on paper it can't be argued), and was simply the best player on a machine.

I think he is a great player, but individually, I just don't have him in my top 10.

In the end, Russell is an all timer, and I am penalizing him for two things he can't control:

Playing in an era with minimal competition for much of it.
Not being as well rounded as some of the others in my top 10.

that's like penalizing BIRD/MAGIC for having the most stacked teams in 80's, outside of that 76er squad

or penalizing JORDAN for winning in a expansion watered down league, or for JORDAN only winning when ZEKE/BIRD/MAGIC's teams got old as mummy dust

there is no way In the world am I taking away what RUSS accomplished back in those hell racist driven days to stay focus enough to win 11 in 13yrs, imagine had he pulled a WEST and won only 1 in 13 yrs? or imagine if WILT only avg 15ppg and 15rpg instead of his 30 and 20 for his career? but he didn't he put up 50ppg in a season back then to let you know he was that individually dominant, one of the best ever basically by yr 3, same with ALCINDOR and others who are in the best 1-20 group of players in nba history, I never said to myself that JORDAN had to win x amount of rings to best top 10 alltime, I said this guy is a best 20 players to ever step foot on hardwood , during his 'come fly with me' days

I look at'em all equal playing field and just pick the best of they era, its easy to see after yr 3 for me(for others it may take 15yrs), isn't a era like 7yrs? or 10?

longevity means that they playing more yrs than the rest, it adds on nothing to me as it pertains to judging that particular player, I've saw enough already, more yrs will just be that, more yrs to watch'em do the same thing over and over basically until father time catches up and stops all

ALCINDOR playing longer than WILT or SHAQ or DREAM carries no weight when evaluating who is the best , it really comes down to what you value in a players game the most because they all are in that 'best of the best group' at the end of the day, and that needs no PER or WS% eFG% or TS% or whatever other Hollinger metrics

tredigs
06-24-2013, 06:35 PM
The way everybody scream about his 5 rings you would sware bean was the new RUSSELL

talk about overrated, you said RUSSELL is but have a backupguard turned starter in your top 10 greatest all time, nothing wrong with that I guess since you basically swapped 1 overrated for the other

now make a best top group all time, it can be 1-10 or 1-15 or 1-20 to be really fair

longevity doesn't move you up in or down, go ask FAVRE and also MANNING when he retires

WILT needed help with a young ALINCDOR, had they both matched up in they youth it would be like nothing we've ever seen, they had battles when WILT was old big man so just imagine the younger version battles

and how was ALINCDOR better than WILT? because of a sky hook?

WILT lost three straight game 7's against the most stacked team in league history, that's individual dominance of none other just to get it to 7 games

once you narrow it down to DREAM-SHAQ-WILT-RUSSELL-ALCINDOR its pretty much who's left after being and you still make out with a best of the best type player, you can even throw a few more names out there

I wouldn't call it individual dominance with Wilt's losses. In 68 he was one of 4 guys posting 19+ and 7+ (Chet, Cunningham, Greer), and Hal Greer was their leading scorer in the playoffs, not Wilt (Chamberlain shooting 38% from the line at 12+ a night certainly didn't help matters and is one big X on a comparison on him versus Kareem). Then with the Lakers he had Jerry West AND Elgin Baylor - where he was the distant 3rd option offensively.

IKnowHoops
06-24-2013, 06:59 PM
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Shaq
4.Hakeem
5.Duncan
6.DRob
7.Wilt
8.Kareem
9.Magic
10.Bird

Note: My rankings reflect all players going against each other in there prime. Not who had the best career.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 07:05 PM
People embarrassing themselves left and right with their lists

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 07:07 PM
I really like this list. I'd have Hakeem over Shaq but it's interchangeable.

Just like how Kobe fans have Kobe in the top 5 and LeBron outside of the top 10...

If Kobe can win another one, he'd probably re-enter my top 10 and Duncan would possibly become top 5. Problem is with Kobe, he's never going to win another MVP and with the way things are in LA combing the fact that he's declining and coming off an achilles injury, he's probably never going to make it back to the Finals ever again.

Lol so Kobe is outside your top 10 and Duncan is borderline top 5 yet Kobe has done more then Duncan has oh ok...

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 07:08 PM
Dude, there were only 8 teams back then, obviously it's much different.

Dude, you didn't specify any conditions, just blustered on about something you know nothing about. Your bad.


You're an idiot. 8 teams, only two of them had a chance to compete for a title. You do the math, kiddo.

No, all 8 have a chance, you should try math sometime. I made my living using advanced math for 30 years, sonny.

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 07:12 PM
Larry's first couple of years and last couple of years weren't impressive. His ultimate prime was around 4 seasons, that was all. Not to mention Larry only played 2 more seasons than LeBron, not 4.

Bird's peak was longer than 4 years sonny - try 7.

nastynice
06-24-2013, 07:17 PM
Some put him in top 10 because they're so eager to categorize players and 10 is a round number. 12-15 is not. Lebron should one day be there, but not right now. Most people would agree bird's career was shorter than other greats but he still has 4 years on lebron. If bird is at the tail end of most people's top 10 because of longevity, why is lebron already in some people's top 10? Because we have short term memory and just love to anoint players as the next this, the next that, top 10 etc.. It's the nature of sports, whatever though. I usually just laugh a little when i see it.

yup, amen on the short term memory. So many players that played at such a high level that don't get their credit, think of clyde drexler, dennis rodman, mailman, etc. Not saying these players are top ten all time, not even saying they are better than lebron necessarily, but people just completely catapult lebron way higher than necessary cuz he's top dog right now.

One thing he brings to the table is that he is so versatile, he's so big yet so athletic, but does his scoring ability even compare to kobe's? his fundamentals to duncan's? his footwork to hakeem's? his vision to stockton's? I think people forget just how good some of these players actually were. We're just so eager to tout the current best player as the next jordan, like we did with kobe, it completely distorts what player's have actually accomplished and brought to the table.

Def not trying to hate on him tho, he's such a unique player, and he's been getting better every year, I'm def excited to see what he has in store for us, but I just think most people are getting a little ahead of themself.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-24-2013, 07:18 PM
Since 13 is my fav number, here's my top 13!!

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Larry
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. LeBron
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Big O
13. West

bucketss
06-24-2013, 07:19 PM
People embarrassing themselves left and right with their lists

your other list you said it wasn't in order, please make one so i can laugh at it lolz.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-24-2013, 07:23 PM
imo, lebrons domination of stats over kobe greatly outweighs the 3 extra rings kobe has..

both have 2 finals mvps and both are phenomenal players, i just have lebron at least tied with kobe all time.

and considering this crazy stat: LeBron has more points on fewer than 500 field goal attempts than kobe from 2003 up until this year (including lebrons rookie season and all of kobe prime).

I feel confident in my opinion more..

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 07:26 PM
Wow, you are something special. Hakeem averaged 31,11 rebounds, and 4 blocks against Kareem.

Try adding context.

Jabbar was 36.5 years old the first time he faced Hakeem. When Hakeem was 36.5 Shaq was beating his brains in. I think Motumbo was doing a number on him, too.


1990's was far more competitive than 1980's, by a long shot.

Moronic.


Those were the centers Kareem went up against?

What a lame list. Dave Cowens, Bob Lanier, Thurmond, Unseld, Hayes, Lacey, McAdoo, Sikma, Walton, Moses, etc. (and that's just before 1980). Again... writing about things you seem to know nothing about. Do you have no shame?

R. Johnson#3
06-24-2013, 07:27 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. LeBron James
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Bill Russell
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robinson

:facepalm:

I'm not even gonna say why. If you can't figure it out then shame on you.

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 07:29 PM
Lol so Kobe is outside your top 10 and Duncan is borderline top 5 yet Kobe has done more then Duncan has oh ok...

Duncan is the best PF of all time. Is Kobe the best SG of all time?

Duncan is a high percentage player that shares the ball, and does what's needed. Kobe chased Shaq out of LAL, is a willful volume shooter.

bucketss
06-24-2013, 07:32 PM
yup, amen on the short term memory. So many players that played at such a high level that don't get their credit, think of clyde drexler, dennis rodman, mailman, etc. Not saying these players are top ten all time, not even saying they are better than lebron necessarily, but people just completely catapult lebron way higher than necessary cuz he's top dog right now.

One thing he brings to the table is that he is so versatile, he's so big yet so athletic, but does his scoring ability even compare to kobe's? his fundamentals to duncan's? his footwork to hakeem's? his vision to stockton's? I think people forget just how good some of these players actually were. We're just so eager to tout the current best player as the next jordan, like we did with kobe, it completely distorts what player's have actually accomplished and brought to the table.

Def not trying to hate on him tho, he's such a unique player, and he's been getting better every year, I'm def excited to see what he has in store for us, but I just think most people are getting a little ahead of themself.

oh wow, what if i said, does kobe compare to lebrons vision? does stockton compare to lebrons rebounding? thats bascially what you're doing, taking other players best atributes and comparing it to a completely differen't player, a bit unfair don't you think?

titan85
06-24-2013, 07:35 PM
Hakeem The Dream takes Kareem every time... however, Kareems career > Hakeem. That sky hook :drool:

LeBron is not top 10 yet. Especially considering he is in his prime. He could have an average career from here on out and be top 10. Just let him finish and enjoy the super freak. Like him or not, he is a superhuman that we haven't witnessed before and may never again.

Just enjoy the players for what they bring to the table. Kobe for his absolute undying will to win, LeBron for being a freak of nature with all the talent in the world, Melo for his offensive game, Bosh for being prehistoric, and Howard for being a the most athletically gifted toddler ever ;)

tredigs
06-24-2013, 07:43 PM
Hakeem The Dream takes Kareem every time... however, Kareems career > Hakeem. That sky hook :drool:

LeBron is not top 10 yet. Especially considering he is in his prime. He could have an average career from here on out and be top 10. Just let him finish and enjoy the super freak. Like him or not, he is a superhuman that we haven't witnessed before and may never again.

Just enjoy the players for what they bring to the table. Kobe for his absolute undying will to win, LeBron for being a freak of nature with all the talent in the world, Melo for his offensive game, Bosh for being prehistoric, and Howard for being a the most athletically gifted toddler ever ;)

Not a chance dude, why do you think that? I do think it would be a great matchup, though.

By the way, posted in the other thread, but this is pretty indicative of a play that I'm talking about from Bill Russell that highlights just how underrated his speed/athleticism and overall offensive capabilities were: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JWelUNrJUMM

That's from arguably the best defender and rebounder of all time. And shows nothing of his well known fast break starting/outlet passing abilities and offensive rebounding on that end. Bill was a high teen scorer on a team LOADED with options that limited his output. He'd have been a 25/25/5 guy on most teams (Adjusted for pace - ~17/17/3.5 with 3.5+ blocks now a days on a team where his offense was more needed).

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 07:45 PM
Yeah, clearly his awards and ships are watered down, but his production (adjusted obviously) is still just phenomenal.

He's the toughest of any player to rank, but with some of the comments I read on Bill I've definitely decided to beat the war drums on his behalf a bit more. And there's no doubt on the well roundedness when compared to other GOATs like MJ/KAJ/Timmy/Hakeem, but that's why I bring up Magic and Bird to an extent as well. It's too bad we didn't get to see him for a year or two on lesser teams through his prime (especially if it were in another era), I've always wanted to see how that would play out. I think it's better than some would expect, but c'est la vie.

amen dude. I go back and forth with Bill, because of the reasons you just stated.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 07:47 PM
that's like penalizing BIRD/MAGIC for having the most stacked teams in 80's, outside of that 76er squad

or penalizing JORDAN for winning in a expansion watered down league, or for JORDAN only winning when ZEKE/BIRD/MAGIC's teams got old as mummy dust

there is no way In the world am I taking away what RUSS accomplished back in those hell racist driven days to stay focus enough to win 11 in 13yrs, imagine had he pulled a WEST and won only 1 in 13 yrs? or imagine if WILT only avg 15ppg and 15rpg instead of his 30 and 20 for his career? but he didn't he put up 50ppg in a season back then to let you know he was that individually dominant, one of the best ever basically by yr 3, same with ALCINDOR and others who are in the best 1-20 group of players in nba history, I never said to myself that JORDAN had to win x amount of rings to best top 10 alltime, I said this guy is a best 20 players to ever step foot on hardwood , during his 'come fly with me' days

I look at'em all equal playing field and just pick the best of they era, its easy to see after yr 3 for me(for others it may take 15yrs), isn't a era like 7yrs? or 10?

longevity means that they playing more yrs than the rest, it adds on nothing to me as it pertains to judging that particular player, I've saw enough already, more yrs will just be that, more yrs to watch'em do the same thing over and over basically until father time catches up and stops all

ALCINDOR playing longer than WILT or SHAQ or DREAM carries no weight when evaluating who is the best , it really comes down to what you value in a players game the most because they all are in that 'best of the best group' at the end of the day, and that needs no PER or WS% eFG% or TS% or whatever other Hollinger metrics

not at all. By that time, expansion, integration of the ABA, etc, had occurred. Teams were much more competitive, than in Russell's era, where one team had droves of HOF'ers, and simply stomped on everyone for over a decade.

Lo Porto
06-24-2013, 07:55 PM
For example, when Jordan was done with his 9th season (before his 1st retirement at the age of 29 and one less season than Lebron's at) and had 3 MVP's, 3 straight FMVP's, a DPOY award and just finished his 7th straight scoring title while also leading the league in both Win Shares + PER for those 7 consecutive seasons, would you have him outside the top 10 simply because he wasn't 30? Of course not. And we can do the same argument for Kareem and his 5 MVP's + Finals MVP and scoring + defensive dominance by 30.

And while Lebron's not quite on that level, he's earned a very solid top 10 argument at this point.

The DPOY is such a joke. Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Just another way that the NBA over-inflated Jordan's value.

tredigs
06-24-2013, 07:57 PM
not at all. By that time, expansion, integration of the ABA, etc, had occurred. Teams were much more competitive, than in Russell's era, where one team had droves of HOF'ers, and simply stomped on everyone for over a decade.

To be fair, ABA didn't exist until Russell's last few seasons, and by that time Chamberlain was already on a stacked Sixers team and later teamed up with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor on the Lakers and still couldn't touch 'em for the most part.


The DPOY is such a joke. Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Just another way that the NBA over-inflated Jordan's value.

BS - MJ was a ****ing PHENOMENAL defender. That award can indeed be deceptive sometimes, but he was right with Scottie as one of the best wing defenders ever, and many smart people consider him the better of the two on that end.

hidalgo
06-24-2013, 08:00 PM
that's like penalizing BIRD/MAGIC for having the most stacked teams in 80's, outside of that 76er squad

or penalizing JORDAN for winning in a expansion watered down league, or for JORDAN only winning when ZEKE/BIRD/MAGIC's teams got old as mummy dust

there is no way In the world am I taking away what RUSS accomplished back in those hell racist driven days to stay focus enough to win 11 in 13yrs, imagine had he pulled a WEST and won only 1 in 13 yrs? or imagine if WILT only avg 15ppg and 15rpg instead of his 30 and 20 for his career? but he didn't he put up 50ppg in a season back then to let you know he was that individually dominant, one of the best ever basically by yr 3, same with ALCINDOR and others who are in the best 1-20 group of players in nba history, I never said to myself that JORDAN had to win x amount of rings to best top 10 alltime, I said this guy is a best 20 players to ever step foot on hardwood , during his 'come fly with me' days

I look at'em all equal playing field and just pick the best of they era, its easy to see after yr 3 for me(for others it may take 15yrs), isn't a era like 7yrs? or 10?

longevity means that they playing more yrs than the rest, it adds on nothing to me as it pertains to judging that particular player, I've saw enough already, more yrs will just be that, more yrs to watch'em do the same thing over and over basically until father time catches up and stops all

ALCINDOR playing longer than WILT or SHAQ or DREAM carries no weight when evaluating who is the best , it really comes down to what you value in a players game the most because they all are in that 'best of the best group' at the end of the day, and that needs no PER or WS% eFG% or TS% or whatever other Hollinger metricssorry but the Pistons & Lakers were far from old in 1991 when Michael's Bulls beat them, look at the rosters & their ages. sayng they were old is a flat out hater lie. they were actually pretty damn young still. all prime ages still in their prime

Magic 31
Worthy 30
B Scott 30
AC Green 27
Vlade 23
Perkins 29
Elden Campbell 22

Isiah Thomas 30 (barely, less than a month into 30)
Joe Dumars 27
Dennis Rodman 30 (a week or 2 into 30)
Mark Aguirre 31
Bill Laimbeer 34 (just turned 34 the day the series started)
Vinnie Johnson 34 (ballin like a madman)
John Salley 27

neither team could be called old whatsoever

2010 Celtics were older, even the 2008 Celtics were older. the Spurs this year were much much older, but still great. old is a good thing a lot of times in the nba anyway. but the pistons & lakers werent old

PrettyBoyJ
06-24-2013, 08:05 PM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
LBJ
Duncan

ThuglifeJ
06-24-2013, 08:17 PM
This is a stupid thread because half the forum is stupid or too young to have any clue as to how good the legends before them were.

I hate how almost no one actually gives themselves any good insight on past legends and just rub the current great player's dicks AND THEN go on to pretend they should be eligible to make a top 10 greatest players of ALL TIME list.

give me a break. How are you kiddies going to feel when you're 30 and kids are going to say Lebron was overrated or something or needed Wade. If Jordan or Magic was playing now and you were witnessing them now you would feel differently about your opinions.

anyways.


1. MJ/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Duncan/Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon

and no Im not putting KAJ as #1 spot for attention I fully believe that and anyone who automatically dismisses my list because of that needs to go study the game's history.
Lebron is top 20 for me but he needs to you know..actually get further in his career or be finished before we claim his top 10 already. Kobe's already almost done with his career on the other hand

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-24-2013, 08:19 PM
Duncan is the best PF of all time. Is Kobe the best SG of all time?

Duncan is a high percentage player that shares the ball, and does what's needed. Kobe chased Shaq out of LAL, is a willful volume shooter.

#'s and rings accolades don't lie... Try again...Duncan isn't challenging the GOAT for the top sg spot either so there is that

hidalgo
06-24-2013, 08:27 PM
#'s and rings accolades don't lie... Try again...Duncan isn't challenging the GOAT for the top sg spot either so there is thatTim Duncan was the best player on 4 championship teams, won 3 finals mvps, & almost had his 4th finals mvp. 4 titles as the man is twice as good as 2 titles as the man

bucketss
06-24-2013, 08:30 PM
This is a stupid thread because half the forum is stupid or too young to have any clue as to how good the legends before them were.

I hate how almost no one actually gives themselves any good insight on past legends and just rub the current great player's dicks AND THEN go on to pretend they should be eligible to make a top 10 greatest players of ALL TIME list.

give me a break. How are you kiddies going to feel when you're 30 and kids are going to say Lebron was overrated or something or needed Wade. If Jordan or Magic was playing now and you were witnessing them now you would feel differently about your opinions.

anyways.


1. MJ/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Duncan/Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon

and no Im not putting KAJ as #1 spot for attention I fully believe that and anyone who automatically dismisses my list because of that needs to go study the game's history.
Lebron is top 20 for me but he needs to you know..actually get further in his career or be finished before we claim his top 10 already. Kobe's already almost done with his career on the other hand

top 20:laugh:

Ironman5219
06-24-2013, 08:39 PM
Jordan
Shaq
Wilt
Jabbar
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 08:42 PM
To be fair, ABA didn't exist until Russell's last few seasons, and by that time Chamberlain was already on a stacked Sixers team and later teamed up with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor on the Lakers and still couldn't touch 'em for the most part.


I was responding to a poster who said if I was going to judge Russell off minimum competition, I should judge Magic/Bird by that book as well.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 08:43 PM
This is a stupid thread because half the forum is stupid or too young to have any clue as to how good the legends before them were.

I hate how almost no one actually gives themselves any good insight on past legends and just rub the current great player's dicks AND THEN go on to pretend they should be eligible to make a top 10 greatest players of ALL TIME list.

give me a break. How are you kiddies going to feel when you're 30 and kids are going to say Lebron was overrated or something or needed Wade. If Jordan or Magic was playing now and you were witnessing them now you would feel differently about your opinions.

anyways.


1. MJ/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Duncan/Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Olajuwon

and no Im not putting KAJ as #1 spot for attention I fully believe that and anyone who automatically dismisses my list because of that needs to go study the game's history.
Lebron is top 20 for me but he needs to you know..actually get further in his career or be finished before we claim his top 10 already. Kobe's already almost done with his career on the other hand

name me 19 players all time better than Bron.

good luck defending what you post to this response..

ThuglifeJ
06-24-2013, 08:49 PM
top 20:laugh:

ur and idiot. and a heat fan and a bad poster because you only post about the heat or lebron. so I dont take anything those type of posters take seriously.

top 20 could mean #11 or it could mean #19. Reason being if you stopped his career RIGHT NOW. He woulnd't be top 10. And that's the way we should do it, otherwise we could put anyone in top 10 and say 'potentially' theyll be there.

Lebron is on pace for the #5-10 spot right now. He could go higher, he could go shorter. Right now if you cut his career off his resume doesnt put him top 10, rather top 20.

sorry for being a logical thinker here and not a fanboy.

lakersiznumber1
06-24-2013, 08:50 PM
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Shaq
4.Hakeem
5.Duncan
6.DRob
7.Wilt
8.Kareem
9.Magic
10.Bird

Note: My rankings reflect all players going against each other in there prime. Not who had the best career.

:laugh: i stopped reading after 1

ThuglifeJ
06-24-2013, 08:51 PM
name me 19 players all time better than Bron.

good luck defending what you post to this response..

he's on pace for the 5-10 spot. could go higher could go lower. That doesnt matter though because the fact is if you cut off his career right now he wouldn't be top 10. I dont get why this is so hard to understand. I'm not saying he wont be there

3RDASYSTEM
06-24-2013, 08:56 PM
Here's an example I like to give on when judging a player and knowing that you are what you are pretty much from the get go and into the future of that players career since basically I started watching

Here's a NBA example of draft scouting report on players on a few players upon being drafted, im going to also correct the errors if they made any and speak my mind on the strength/weakness areas of what I feel mistakes they made

TIM DUNCAN
Strengths - Great inside game and Versatile player = best of the best material since day1

Weakness - Free Throw Shooting(does that ring a bell today even though he has 'improved'?)

KG
Strengths - Fantastic all around skills = best of the best material since day1

Weakness - No college experience, must add strength = still the same build, tad bit heavier but that's because of age and slow down of metabolism,still skinny by all standards just not super rail thin like in 95' draft

Bryant
Strengths - Very athletic = on a HS level no doubt but to me at College-NBA level nothing eye popping but to each his own, we all have different standards obviously and his second strength was 'Good all around game''(EDDIE JONES-PIPPEN style like I said) = good player, nothing top 5 or top 10 at all

Weakness - 2 or 3 yrs away from impact = backupguard(started year 4) and needs to add weight(bulked up like JORDAN in like 04 or 05' season)

these are actual scouting reports on draft night, and like I said you are who you are even with my corrections they turn out the same player day 1

I always said bean was a good player and I don't need the scouting report to prove me right nor wrong, its just a eye test thing

its like why would NIQUE need 5 rings to be on a top 10 list if he wasn't capable of making it without the 5 rings? WILT and others are just that with or without the ring

AI
Strengths - Excellent speed(supreme athlete), great court vision = great all around skill(really? especially according to fans who swares he wouldn't pass to save his life)

Weakness - Sometimes erractic play(since HS) and shoots first and pass second(he had avg talent at G'TOWN and does mckie/snow for 7yrs in PHI ring a bell?) = a best of the best day1

LEBRON
Must improve jump shot = best of the best day1

that's all? a jumpshot but on his HS scouting report it said he had deep range, also wasn't that jumper suspect until the first like 5 games of this past FINALS? it wasn't his need to improve at all, it was more of him finding his comfort and confident zone and mastering the speed of the game

game is game( unstoppable individual player-team impact), hype is hype(rings/per)

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 08:58 PM
#'s and rings accolades don't lie... Try again...Duncan isn't challenging the GOAT for the top sg spot either so there is that

Rings are largely a function of teammates, and I'd say Duncan clearly got as many rings as Kobe got given the talent available.

As far as awards, humans vote on them, and humans are flawed. Humans that vote on things like NBA MVP are swayed by the media (what a big help being in LAL is for that...) and subjective things like other peoples opinions and not dispassionate facts.

Also Kobe needs to dominate the ball, and Duncan does not. Duncan isn't a tool by all accounts, and Kobe spent $3M buying off his wife with a big fat ring, and quite a few other things.

I appreciate Kobe's defense in the playoffs and his will to win - which helps him rise on the list of players, but his volume shooting ways, and his prickly personality suppress his place on my list of players I'd actually want to make teams with. No way does he make my 1st team all time team, and I'm not sure he makes the 2nd team either - again - more for being ill fit, than having talent.

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 09:01 PM
I was responding to a poster who said if I was going to judge Russell off minimum competition, I should judge Magic/Bird by that book as well.

The NBA after Bird showed up and before Jordan/Hakeem showed up was much deeper and more complete than any prior era of the NBA IMO.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-24-2013, 09:17 PM
#'s and rings accolades don't lie... Try again...Duncan isn't challenging the GOAT for the top sg spot either so there is that

Duncan has more MVPs, FMVPs, and defensive teams(and this is closer than it should be.) Duncan's also better in all three of the efficiency categories in the playoffs and in 2 out of 3 in the regular season(his eFG% is only .003 worse than Kobe's.) Duncan has better overall win shares in the regular season and playoffs, better win shares win shares per 48 in the regular season and playoffs, and better defensive win shares in the regular season and playoffs. Duncan's also been in the top 10 in WS/48 and DWS in a season many more times than Kobe. Kobe has Tim beaten in OWS, but Tim finished has finish first in OWS for a season once and Kobe has never done that.

We could also add in the fact that Kobe's never had a season where he's the best player in the league. Sure he's got an MVP, but Chris Paul was way more deserving. Duncan on the other hand was the best player in the league for possibly at least 3 seasons if not more.

lakersiznumber1
06-24-2013, 09:20 PM
bad list if you don't have kobe in the top 5 you just a hater. To me kobe is number 2 closest person to mj

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain

after that its a toss up

nastynice
06-24-2013, 09:33 PM
oh wow, what if i said, does kobe compare to lebrons vision? does stockton compare to lebrons rebounding? thats bascially what you're doing, taking other players best atributes and comparing it to a completely differen't player, a bit unfair don't you think?

obviously that's what I'm doing, I'm just reminding people that remember, we've seen much better in these categories before, we're not witnessing some kind of unseen skill. Of course, what lebron brings to the table is such a high skill in EACH of these categories, his versatility is unmatched. But its not like he's doing something we've never seen done in the game, we've seen much better in these categories, so let's just let the man play some more ball before crowning him anything, he doesn't deserve it yet.

LakersMaster24
06-24-2013, 09:36 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaq Diesel
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Oscar Robertson/Lebron James
11. LeBron James/Oscar Robertson

bagwell368
06-24-2013, 09:54 PM
bad list if you don't have kobe in the top 5 you just a hater. To me kobe is number 2 closest person to mj

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain

after that its a toss up

Gee, anothr biased poster on PSD - what were the odds.

Kobe has no business in the top 5. Magic is clearly more deserving. So is Duncan and KAJ

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 11:14 PM
he's on pace for the 5-10 spot. could go higher could go lower. That doesnt matter though because the fact is if you cut off his career right now he wouldn't be top 10. I dont get why this is so hard to understand. I'm not saying he wont be there

name me 19 better. Don't dodge the question

bucketss
06-24-2013, 11:19 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaq Diesel
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Oscar Robertson/Lebron James
11. LeBron James/Oscar Robertson

nearly flawless list, best one yet.IMO

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 11:32 PM
The NBA after Bird showed up and before Jordan/Hakeem showed up was much deeper and more complete than any prior era of the NBA IMO.

well, yeah. Which is where my opinion came from.

Look, I know I am hard on Russell as an all timer. It stems from the two reasons I have, that Bill can't do a single thing about.

Lakers4ItAll
06-25-2013, 12:13 AM
MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem
Lebron
Kareem

DreamShaker
06-25-2013, 12:41 AM
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe/Lebron

seikou8
06-25-2013, 12:47 AM
Duncan has more MVPs, FMVPs, and defensive teams(and this is closer than it should be.) Duncan's also better in all three of the efficiency categories in the playoffs and in 2 out of 3 in the regular season(his eFG% is only .003 worse than Kobe's.) Duncan has better overall win shares in the regular season and playoffs, better win shares win shares per 48 in the regular season and playoffs, and better defensive win shares in the regular season and playoffs. Duncan's also been in the top 10 in WS/48 and DWS in a season many more times than Kobe. Kobe has Tim beaten in OWS, but Tim finished has finish first in OWS for a season once and Kobe has never done that.

We could also add in the fact that Kobe's never had a season where he's the best player in the league. Sure he's got an MVP, but Chris Paul was way more deserving. Duncan on the other hand was the best player in the league for possibly at least 3 seasons if not more.

damn killed him ,called him out on his ****

MTar786
06-25-2013, 12:50 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabber
3. shaq
4. chamberlain
5. magic
6. kobe
7. hakeem
8. duncan
9. Lebron
10. Larry Bird

amos1er
06-25-2013, 01:02 AM
Lebron is not top ten yet.

Funny how all the Lebronites who used to say that rings don't mean anything all of the sudden want to boost Lebron to top ten status now that he got his second ring. lol

Which is greater? Getting to the finals and losing to a superior team in a tight game 7 or winning a ring against inferior competition in 7 games by the skin of your teeth?

tapajafri
06-25-2013, 01:02 AM
Kobe is just outside of my top 10...but good god, you can't have Tim Duncan in your top 10 and not have Kobe. Bryant is and always has been better than Duncan.... and I'm a huge Duncan fan. Just doesn't make any sense to have Duncan ahead of Bryant. Cmon...

tapajafri
06-25-2013, 01:03 AM
bad list if you don't have kobe in the top 5 you just a hater. To me kobe is number 2 closest person to mj

1. Michael jordan
2. Kobe bryant
3. Kareem abdul-jabbar
4. Bill russell
5. Wilt chamberlain

after that its a toss up

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool this list is horrific. Kobe over Wilt and Kareem? Lebron not in top 5? No Magic? Tossup after 5 with no Lebron/Magic on the list? Kobe at #2? LMAO


edit: realized your username has lakers in it.... all blasphemy is now explained.

Machine13
06-25-2013, 01:06 AM
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Tim Duncan
10.LeBron

Jordan and Kareem are set at 1 and 2 for me but the rest of the top 5 could be rearranged. The rest of the list is pretty well in order imo.

MrUnbiased42
06-25-2013, 01:40 AM
I can't believe none of you in here add Oscar Robertson to your list. The Big O, the only player to average a triple double is one of the best PG/SG's to ever play. Ask Kareem, ask Magic, ask Jerry West who said, "When I look back on my career, he's the greatest I ever played against. Period." Bill Russell once said he was the G.O.A.T.

He is regarded as the most complete player in NBA history, there wasn't anything he couldn't do on the court. He was the first of his kind. Oscar freaking Robertson!!

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Big O
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Kareem
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

Edit: Switched West for Kobe on the 10th spot.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 01:49 AM
Kobe is just outside of my top 10...but good god, you can't have Tim Duncan in your top 10 and not have Kobe. Bryant is and always has been better than Duncan.... and I'm a huge Duncan fan. Just doesn't make any sense to have Duncan ahead of Bryant. Cmon...

You're a huge Duncan fan and you say that? Interesting, because you certainly don't have much respect for him.

I'd have loved to see Kobe take that 02/03 Spurs squad with a retiring D. Rob, baby Tony Parker and nothing Manu to 60 wins and the NBA title. Dude was putting up 25/15/5 with 3.3 bpg as the best player on both ends of the court night in/out through those playoffs. Without him they would've been hosed in the 1st round. Kobe can't compete with what Duncan does defensively, and that is what is lost on everyone who parades this Kobe >> Duncan mantra.

Even without PER capable of taking proper account for Duncan's immense defensive impact, his regular + post-season PER > Kobe, as well as regular and post-season WinShares. For 15 straight years the Spurs have never finished worse than 2nd in their division or missed the playoffs while posting nothing but 50+ Win seasons. The common denominator there was that Duncan did not miss games and he anchored them to one of the top defenses in the league year in/out. His system and role players were fantastic, but without Duncan they would have been absolutely lost. Kobe's incredible, but Duncan is better. Numbers don't lie.

martin_108
06-25-2013, 02:42 AM
Jordan
Kobe
Magic
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Bird
James
Wilt
Duncan

martin_108
06-25-2013, 02:46 AM
I've always thought that if a lot of people (analyst and players included) said that Kobe is the best laker of all time then why isnt he a top 5 player or second behind Jordan ...many people have magic and Kareem in their top 5?

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-25-2013, 02:50 AM
I've always thought that if a lot of people (analyst and players included) said that Kobe is the best laker of all time then why isnt he a top 5 player or second behind Jordan ...many people have magic and Kareem in their top 5?

Because PSD is dumb and they don't accept facts

tredigs
06-25-2013, 03:02 AM
I've always thought that if a lot of people (analyst and players included) said that Kobe is the best laker of all time then why isnt he a top 5 player or second behind Jordan ...many people have magic and Kareem in their top 5?

Well, even assuming people cared what those analysts said (ignoring that there are hundreds to thousands of them with varying opinions on that matter), you're including Kareem in that "greatest Laker" group as if that was his entire career. Did you know he was the most dominant 2 way player in the league, won 5 MVP's and took a expansion Milwaukee Buck franchise to its only title in his 2nd season before he wore the purple and gold? If Shaq was a Laker his whole career, we could write a similar story. Same with Wilt. Kobe is not the greatest player to ever wear the colors, he just gets a significant edge for demanding a trade to them and staying there throughout the entirety of his career.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 05:57 AM
I've always thought that if a lot of people (analyst and players included) said that Kobe is the best laker of all time then why isnt he a top 5 player or second behind Jordan ...many people have magic and Kareem in their top 5?

How about you develop your own voice not dictated by what talking heads say.

I love Magic the player, but, when he comes out with garbage like Rondo is the best PG in the NBA, he needs to see more film of Rondo in non National TV games, and people that parrot him need their heads examined - or at least learn enough to know Rondo wasn't even top 10 last year (adjusting for games played).

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 06:09 AM
Because PSD is dumb and they don't accept facts

Magic > Kobe for breakfast

Kobe ORtg is +7 of his DRtg
Magic's ORtg is +17 of his DRtg

Magic's WS48 is .225 (8th all time)
Kobe's WS48 is .183 (31st all time)

Magic's PER is better.

Magic was better in the playoffs too.

Only advantage volume shooting Kobe has is more games played in his career, which doesn't make up for being clearly a lesser player than Magic.

Magic was the best player for the Lakers in 4 of his 5 Championships (and was part of 8 playoff failures)
Kobe was the best player for the lakers in 0 of his 5 Championships if you go by win shares (and was part of 11 playoff failures)

Funny having to explain Lakers history to Lakers fans....

You sub 25 year olds writing this nonsense suffer from the "guys I have seen are the best" disease. Find out more about the game you claim to love, and spew less garbage.

sammyvine
06-25-2013, 06:15 AM
Kobe shouldnt be top 5


deffo top 10 though

ATX
06-25-2013, 09:49 AM
Because PSD is dumb and they don't accept facts

What facts? That Kobe is top 5? Overwhelming opinions would say no.


Well, even assuming people cared what those analysts said (ignoring that there are hundreds to thousands of them with varying opinions on that matter), you're including Kareem in that "greatest Laker" group as if that was his entire career. Did you know he was the most dominant 2 way player in the league, won 5 MVP's and took a expansion Milwaukee Buck franchise to its only title in his 2nd season before he wore the purple and gold? If Shaq was a Laker his whole career, we could write a similar story. Same with Wilt. Kobe is not the greatest player to ever wear the colors, he just gets a significant edge for demanding a trade to them and staying there throughout the entirety of his career.

Ownage


Magic > Kobe for breakfast

Kobe ORtg is +7 of his DRtg
Magic's ORtg is +17 of his DRtg

Magic's WS48 is .225 (8th all time)
Kobe's WS48 is .183 (31st all time)

Magic's PER is better.

Magic was better in the playoffs too.

Only advantage volume shooting Kobe has is more games played in his career, which doesn't make up for being clearly a lesser player than Magic.

Magic was the best player for the Lakers in 4 of his 5 Championships (and was part of 8 playoff failures)
Kobe was the best player for the lakers in 0 of his 5 Championships if you go by win shares (and was part of 11 playoff failures)

Funny having to explain Lakers history to Lakers fans....

You sub 25 year olds writing this nonsense suffer from the "guys I have seen are the best" disease. Find out more about the game you claim to love, and spew less garbage.

More ownage


Kobe shouldnt be top 5


deffo top 10 though

I agree.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 10:03 AM
I've always thought that if a lot of people (analyst and players included) said that Kobe is the best laker of all time then why isnt he a top 5 player or second behind Jordan ...many people have magic and Kareem in their top 5?

1- Magic is better
2- KAJ played for the Bucks for arguably the best portion of his career, individually

martin_108
06-25-2013, 12:56 PM
Magic jerry west shaq themselves have said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever so ima go with their opinion and my own then anyone on this forum lol

Minimal
06-25-2013, 12:59 PM
1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Oscar
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. LeBron
10. Bird

tredigs
06-25-2013, 01:09 PM
Magic jerry west shaq themselves have said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever so ima go with their opinion and my own then anyone on this forum lol

In short: I can't even comprehend what you guys are saying.

CELTS20
06-25-2013, 01:46 PM
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Big O
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. LeBron
11. Kobe

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 02:18 PM
Magic jerry west shaq themselves have said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever so ima go with their opinion and my own then anyone on this forum lol

People tell tales. Look at the Celts:

Bob Ryan and Red Auerbach used to say Bird was no worse than tied for #1 Celt all time. Last year Ryan smeared himself in eternal feces by saying Pierce was better than Bird.

Last year, Ainge, Doc, KG, and PP repeated over and over that Rondo was the leader and it was his team. But the players didn't believe it, the media didn't either, and fans that actually look for the truth and not take the words of people talking **** could see, it wasn't true and will never be true.

Same thing here w/ you Laker Gallery of Heroes. In 18 years they may say the same thing about some other newer Laker, but I doubt Kobe will join him, he's a putz - look how obsessed he is about being greater than Jordan, a goal he has fallen well short of.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 02:20 PM
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Big O
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. LeBron
11. Kobe

Russell is way too high.

Why? I wrote this 2 months ago. There are many more posts with more detail behind this summary. Stop with Russell as top 10 all of you. I'm the only one that saw him live here that I know of:

Look at his own time. Wilt, Oscar, Petit, and possibly West had a larger share of their teams success than Russell. When they were on teams with the #1 SRS, they won titles. None had more than two such teams, several had one.

Russell had nine (9), with and additional 3 years at #2. No other player ever landed in such clover as Russell in NBA history. He didn't screw it up, which is key. But he played on teams with 3-4-5-6 other HOF'ers, in a league with NO other franchise that was able to sustain a team that could compete (the Lakers were in the much weaker West, check out there mostly meh SRS ratings through those years).

In a league with mostly 7 and 8 other teams, in a league with two or three rounds of playoffs, in a league his first 3 years when there were only 3 other players at/over 6' 8", in a league with a narrow key - he not only did not dominate, he was above average at best on offense (and his FT% shooting always sucked). Once the giants showed up and the key was widened (to combat Wilt), that was it for Russell's offense which became below average.

The only positive he gets on offense is the glass, and his passing after Cousy retired. That's pretty nice, but But his shooting in a non 3 point Center dominated league? yuck.

He's not a top 5 Center all time. Jabbar, Wilt (averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds per game vs Russell in the ~140 times they faced each other in the (regular seasons and playoffs)), Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq - all better.

Neil Johnston (short career), Gilmore, Moses, KG, and Duncan all arguable as better players as well.

Top players with two way games crowd out those that don't have such a game. Who are the great players who were one way? Magic? Bird? Barkley? It's a simple argument that Magic and Bird were both better on D than Russell was on O. Barkley is closer, but still did more on D than Russell did on O, but, Miller is the first guy that has a dominant O with a poor D - what's he? Between 20-25 all time?

Russell landed in the SINGLE greatest landing spot a NBA player ever had. He cashed it in. He was what they needed, and they were what he needed. He wins zero titles on the Pistons, and say the Hawks starting in 1960. Bulls? No titles. None. How great could he have been? He not could create offense (not even AS level, never mind creme de' la creme levels), you do have to score after all to win.

Russell is listed as top 10 or top 15, top defensive player all time, greatest winner all time. This has been learned from the prior generation. Well, as a kid that grew up thinking the same things - I tell you he's a "stand-in" as Mr. Celtic for that great era. Well he's not that without Red, and he's not that without his teammates. It's a team game, and he's the visible face. He wasn't the team, and he's not the GOAT. He's not a top 5 Center all time. He's a happy accident of time. Other players could have done what he did given the setting. But given a weak/meager team to play for? You think he's Hakeem, Jordan, Bird, Kareem? No chance, he's a very successful part in a greater whole. He did not and could not dominate on the scoring end. How can a guy that played 65% of the game be the GOAT?

joeystats
06-25-2013, 02:42 PM
Had to go 15

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Bill Russell
6 Tim Duncan
7 Magic Johnson
8 Scottie Pippen
9 Wilt Chamberlain
10 Dr Julius Erving
11 Larry Bird
12 Lebron James
13 John Havlicek
14 Karl Malone
15 Hakeem Olajuwon

tredigs
06-25-2013, 02:48 PM
Russell is way too high.

Why? I wrote this 2 months ago. There are many more posts with more detail behind this summary. Stop with Russell as top 10 all of you. I'm the only one that saw him live here that I know of:

Look at his own time. Wilt, Oscar, Petit, and possibly West had a larger share of their teams success than Russell. When they were on teams with the #1 SRS, they won titles. None had more than two such teams, several had one.

Russell had nine (9), with and additional 3 years at #2. No other player ever landed in such clover as Russell in NBA history. He didn't screw it up, which is key. But he played on teams with 3-4-5-6 other HOF'ers, in a league with NO other franchise that was able to sustain a team that could compete (the Lakers were in the much weaker West, check out there mostly meh SRS ratings through those years).

In a league with mostly 7 and 8 other teams, in a league with two or three rounds of playoffs, in a league his first 3 years when there were only 3 other players at/over 6' 8", in a league with a narrow key - he not only did not dominate, he was above average at best on offense (and his FT% shooting always sucked). Once the giants showed up and the key was widened (to combat Wilt), that was it for Russell's offense which became below average.

The only positive he gets on offense is the glass, and his passing after Cousy retired. That's pretty nice, but But his shooting in a non 3 point Center dominated league? yuck.

He's not a top 5 Center all time. Jabbar, Wilt (averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds per game vs Russell in the ~140 times they faced each other in the (regular seasons and playoffs)), Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq - all better.

Neil Johnston (short career), Gilmore, Moses, KG, and Duncan all arguable as better players as well.

Top players with two way games crowd out those that don't have such a game. Who are the great players who were one way? Magic? Bird? Barkley? It's a simple argument that Magic and Bird were both better on D than Russell was on O. Barkley is closer, but still did more on D than Russell did on O, but, Miller is the first guy that has a dominant O with a poor D - what's he? Between 20-25 all time?

Russell landed in the SINGLE greatest landing spot a NBA player ever had. He cashed it in. He was what they needed, and they were what he needed. He wins zero titles on the Pistons, and say the Hawks starting in 1960. Bulls? No titles. None. How great could he have been? He not could create offense (not even AS level, never mind creme de' la creme levels), you do have to score after all to win.

Russell is listed as top 10 or top 15, top defensive player all time, greatest winner all time. This has been learned from the prior generation. Well, as a kid that grew up thinking the same things - I tell you he's a "stand-in" as Mr. Celtic for that great era. Well he's not that without Red, and he's not that without his teammates. It's a team game, and he's the visible face. He wasn't the team, and he's not the GOAT. He's not a top 5 Center all time. He's a happy accident of time. Other players could have done what he did given the setting. But given a weak/meager team to play for? You think he's Hakeem, Jordan, Bird, Kareem? No chance, he's a very successful part in a greater whole. He did not and could not dominate on the scoring end. How can a guy that played 65% of the game be the GOAT?
Not in the mood to get into another big back and forth on this, and I do enjoy your posts on Russell and respect them more for the fact that you got to see him play (that said, are kids in the future supposed to respect Amos1's posts more because he saw Kobe play...), but in reality I'm not sure it contradicts anything I write on him being a top 10 player. It seems that you award him negative points for being placed in the situation he was rather than leaving it neutral. E.g., why do we so easily dismiss Magic's lack of impact defensively due to his offensive brilliance but are unwilling to do the same for Bill? In the same amount of years (13), Russell posted more total Win Shares than Magic as well as more on the defensive end than Magic did offensively. He also led the league in Defensive Win Shares 11 of his 13 seasons, Magic led offensively once. PER is moot as it has even more trouble placing defensive presences, especially without his steal+block totals.

I just can't leave out a top 3 defender, rebounder, shot blocker (not just amount, but the way he blocked) and arguably leader from a top 10. Yes their team was the best, but it wasn't the only stacked team of that era, either. Wilt himself played on some amazing squads himself.

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 02:53 PM
Had to go 15

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Bill Russell
6 Tim Duncan
7 Magic Johnson
8 Scottie Pippen
9 Wilt Chamberlain
10 Dr Julius Erving
11 Larry Bird
12 Lebron James
13 John Havlicek
14 Karl Malone
15 Hakeem Olajuwon

That's an interesting list. I don't agree with Magic and Bird being that low but otherwise a respectable balanced list.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 02:59 PM
That's an interesting list. I don't agree with Magic and Bird being that low but otherwise a respectable balanced list.

Kobe at 3rd all time, Scottie at 8th, Hakeem at 15th and no Oscar is seen as a respectable + balanced list... sigh.

bucketss
06-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Had to go 15

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3 Kobe Bryant
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Bill Russell
6 Tim Duncan
7 Magic Johnson
8 Scottie Pippen
9 Wilt Chamberlain
10 Dr Julius Erving
11 Larry Bird
12 Lebron James
13 John Havlicek
14 Karl Malone
15 Hakeem Olajuwon

scottie over hakeem,lebron and larry bird interesting

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 03:02 PM
Kobe at 3rd all time, Scottie at 8th, Hakeem at 15th and no Oscar is seen as a respectable + balanced list... sigh.

I guess you missed that part that I don't agree with Magic being that low. That might kinda sorta indicate I might have Magic at 3 instead of Kobe....

tredigs
06-25-2013, 03:11 PM
I guess you missed that part that I don't agree with Magic being that low. That might kinda sorta indicate I might have Magic at 3 instead of Kobe....

Well... no. Could mean you have him at 6th for all we know.

But I do now think it indicates you are fine with Kobe at 4 and the rest I pointed out (Hakeem/Scottie/Oscar) where they are. Which is still sad to me. But everyone's got their own take on it.

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 03:15 PM
Well... no. Could mean you have him at 6th for all we know.

But I do now think it indicates you are fine with Kobe at 4 and the rest I pointed out (Hakeem/Scottie/Oscar) where they are. Which is still sad to me. But everyone's got their own take on it.

The list are subjective dude.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 03:16 PM
Scottie was the 2nd best player in the league at the time IMO, big fan of Oscars game, but guys like Karl Malone DR J, and and Scottie have appeared in over 100 more playoff games than him, he just wasnt as big time to me, a guy like Kobe has played in 220 playoff games only 2nd to Kareem, thats a pretty big deal to me when you talk about all time greats, I care more about playoff numbers than I do about regular season numbers.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:20 PM
Magic jerry west shaq themselves have said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever so ima go with their opinion and my own then anyone on this forum lol

So? Ex-athletes regularly show how biased and ridiculous they are when judging players.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:22 PM
That's an interesting list. I don't agree with Magic and Bird being that low but otherwise a respectable balanced list.

how is a list with Kobe at 3, and Pippen at 8 respectable? Hakeem below Pippen, Erving, Malone, or Havlicek? gross

joeystats
06-25-2013, 03:23 PM
Oscar

22.2 ppg in the playoffs vs 25.7 in the regular season
8.9 apg game playoffs 9.5 apg reular season
6.7 rpg playoffs 7.5 rpg playoffs
46% FG playoffs regular season 48.5% FG regular season

Everything drops off when he gets to the playoffs
Just part of my thinking with him, no disrespect to him I was a big fan

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:24 PM
Scottie was the 2nd best player in the league at the time IMO, big fan of Oscars game, but guys like Karl Malone DR J, and and Scottie have appeared in over 100 more playoff games than him, he just wasnt as big time to me, a guy like Kobe has played in 220 playoff games only 2nd to Kareem, thats a pretty big deal to me when you talk about all time greats, I care more about playoff numbers than I do about regular season numbers.

Pippen was never the second best player in the league at any point.

Getting to play in that many playoff games is a testament to the team you are on, not to an individual.

Gibby23
06-25-2013, 03:25 PM
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Bird

bucketss
06-25-2013, 03:25 PM
Oscar

22.2 ppg in the playoffs vs 25.7 in the regular season
8.9 apg game playoffs 9.5 apg reular season
6.7 rpg playoffs 7.5 rpg playoffs
46% FG playoffs regular season 48.5% FG regular season

Everything drops off when he gets to the playoffs
Just part of my thinking with him, no disrespect to him I was a big fan

you talking about oscar right, just making sure?

edit: nvm just saw you wrote oscar.

jerellh528
06-25-2013, 03:30 PM
1.MJ
2.KAJ
3.Magic
4.Wilt
5.Russell
6.Kobe
7.Shaq
8.Bird
9.Duncan
10.Oscar

tredigs
06-25-2013, 03:30 PM
The list are subjective dude.

Only somewhat. But hence my last sentence.

jerellh528
06-25-2013, 03:30 PM
1.MJ
2.KAJ
3.Magic
4.Wilt
5.Russell
6.Kobe
7.Shaq
8.Bird
9.Duncan
10.Oscar

tredigs
06-25-2013, 03:30 PM
dub

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:34 PM
Oscar

22.2 ppg in the playoffs vs 25.7 in the regular season
8.9 apg game playoffs 9.5 apg reular season
6.7 rpg playoffs 7.5 rpg playoffs
46% FG playoffs regular season 48.5% FG regular season

Everything drops off when he gets to the playoffs
Just part of my thinking with him, no disrespect to him I was a big fan

Oscar is outside my top 10. Somewhere in the 12-15 range. Amazing stats in some years, but he just never had the playoff success or efficiency to enter my top 10.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 03:37 PM
Pippen was never the second best player in the league at any point.

Getting to play in that many playoff games is a testament to the team you are on, not to an individual.

Scottie averaged 17.5 ppg 7.6 rpg 5 apg 2 stpg 2 blkpg in the playoffs
all time steals leader in playoff history
8 time all defensive first team
2 time all defensive 2nd team
6 time champ

Just some of my thinking, one of the greatest but was always outshined by the best player ever.
I respect your opinion though

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:37 PM
You're right, it was 3 seasons since he only played 6 games in one. He was impressive every year, actually his first couple seasons are arguable to be more impressive than lebron's first couple yrs.

They should be. LeBron was 18, Bird 23 when they started. Bird also came to a team with a great front office the put together a championship core quickly, by year 2. LeBron's peak play is just flat out superior to Bird's.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 03:38 PM
Scottie averaged 17.5 ppg 7.6 rpg 5 apg 2 stpg 2 blkpg in the playoffs
all time steals leader in playoff history
8 time all defensive first team
2 time all defensive 2nd team
6 time champ

Just some of my thinking, one of the greatest but was always outshined by the best player ever.
I respect your opinion though

you rank a player on 82 plus playoffs, if they make it. And there are other of players that have matching or better accolades that played at the time.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 03:49 PM
you rank a player on 82 plus playoffs, if they make it. And there are other of players that have matching or better accolades that played at the time.

We rank differently, nuthin wrong with that

bucketss
06-25-2013, 04:00 PM
1.MJ
2.KAJ
3.Magic
4.Wilt
5.Russell
6.Kobe
7.Shaq
8.Bird
9.Duncan
10.Oscar

i find it funny, how kobe/laker fans all say its about the rings, but they put a guy who has 1 chip over someone with 2.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Another crazy Scottie fact, he won 55 regular season games with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant the year after Jordan left lol

Scottie averaged 22 ppg 8.7 rpg 5.6 apg 2.9 spg made All NBA 1st team and All NBA defensive 1st team this year.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 04:03 PM
We rank differently, nuthin wrong with that

please understand, almost nobody will be in agreement with your process if that is the case. At no point was Scottie Pippen a top 2 player in the game. Great career, all timer, but 3 first team all NBA, and being the second banana on each and every finals team doesn't cut it for a top 10 player.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Oscar

22.2 ppg in the playoffs vs 25.7 in the regular season
8.9 apg game playoffs 9.5 apg reular season
6.7 rpg playoffs 7.5 rpg playoffs
46% FG playoffs regular season 48.5% FG regular season

Everything drops off when he gets to the playoffs
Just part of my thinking with him, no disrespect to him I was a big fan

He was a one man team in his prime, so he got doubled and tripled in the playoffs.

During the 1960-1970 time frame, Wilt did the most by far for his teams, Oscar 2nd. If you extend back for Pettit and forward for West a few years both of them top Russell's share of the Celts, but behind Wilt and Oscar.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 04:08 PM
Another crazy Scottie fact, he won 55 regular season games with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant the year after Jordan left lol

and Toni Kukoc, Phil Jackson, the 6th best defense, in the weak east. Hell, Phil Jackson sat him down in closing moments in the playoffs to go to Kukoc...

Like I said, great player, but at no point was he the 2nd best player in the game, and he is probably in the 40ish area all time in all reality.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 04:16 PM
please understand, almost nobody will be in agreement with your process if that is the case. At no point was Scottie Pippen a top 2 player in the game. Great career, all timer, but 3 first team all NBA, and being the second banana on each and every finals team doesn't cut it for a top 10 player.

I understand where your coming from, people always look at Kobe Shaq, Magic Kareem, Jordan Scottie as the best duos, yet most people rank every one except Scottie in the top 10. I know almost nobody will be in agreement with me but that does not concern me, I have my list and I'm content with that. Too many people get all offended when people bash their list or get offended when they don't agree with someones list.

joeystats
06-25-2013, 04:33 PM
Scottie has more rebounds all time in the playoffs than Kobe or Jordan, more assists than Kobe or Jordan, more steals than Kobe or Jordan, more blocks than Kobe or Jordan, and less turnovers than Kobe or Jordan. That doesn't even sound right lol but he does. My last Scottie post promise.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 04:39 PM
I understand where your coming from, people always look at Kobe Shaq, Magic Kareem, Jordan Scottie as the best duos, yet most people rank every one except Scottie in the top 10. I know almost nobody will be in agreement with me but that does not concern me, I have my list and I'm content with that. Too many people get all offended when people bash their list or get offended when they don't agree with someones list.

Well, Scottie wasn't on their level.

Nobody is bashing you, or at least I am not. I am telling you why I believe you are wrong. Scottie Pippen has never had a case at top 20, let alone top 8. 3 time first team all NBA. 0 MVP's. 0 Finals MVP's. How does that define top 10 ever?

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 04:49 PM
Scottie has more rebounds all time in the playoffs than Kobe or Jordan, more assists than Kobe or Jordan, more steals than Kobe or Jordan, more blocks than Kobe or Jordan, and less turnovers than Kobe or Jordan. That doesn't even sound right lol but he does. My last Scottie post promise.

I take no issue with somebody putting Scottie in the top 10. It's controversial because he's vastly underrated but when you look at his résumé of being one of the best 2 way wings ever, 6 rings, Dream Team, his résumé is pretty sick.

martin_108
06-25-2013, 04:54 PM
Magic jerry west shaq themselves have said Kobe is the greatest Laker ever so ima go with their opinion and my own then anyone on this forum lol

So? Ex-athletes regularly show how biased and ridiculous they are when judging players.
MAGIC JOHNSON said Kobe is the greatest laker I don't get you he is saying that Kobe is better than him that's it case closed he has admitted it lol what's yo argument

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 04:56 PM
I like how no one flamed the guy who put Iverson and Vince in their top 10.

Vince is my favorite player of all-time, hats off to you bold poster

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 04:58 PM
MAGIC JOHNSON said Kobe is the greatest laker I don't get you he is saying that Kobe is better than him that's it case closed he has admitted it lol what's yo argument

Except we all know Magic is always trying to be the nicest guy in the universe so he was basically just saying that to be humble and nice.

We all know Magic's legend puts him in the top 5. Kobe may be the greatest player for the Lakers franchise, but Magic did more for the game of basketball. Even tho he was always in LA, and may not be the greatest Laker, he meant more to basketball. If that makes sense.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 05:01 PM
quick question, when was Wade a top 5 player this whole season? or even the last few season?

2013:
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 7th
WS/48: 11th
WoW WP: 10th

2012
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 3rd
WS/48: 5th
WoW WP: 12th

2011:
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 3rd
WS/48: 6th
WoW WP: 6th

2011 hru 2013:
82games Simple Rating: 2nd
Hollinger PER: 4th
WS/48: 5th
WoW WP: 6th

You're Welcome.

tredigs
06-25-2013, 05:29 PM
I like how no one flamed the guy who put Iverson and Vince in their top 10.

Vince is my favorite player of all-time, hats off to you bold poster

Haha, I like VC a ton too - but that was obviously a joke - or if it wasn't not worth the trouble.

martin_108
06-25-2013, 05:31 PM
MAGIC JOHNSON said Kobe is the greatest laker I don't get you he is saying that Kobe is better than him that's it case closed he has admitted it lol what's yo argument

Except we all know Magic is always trying to be the nicest guy in the universe so he was basically just saying that to be humble and nice.

We all know Magic's legend puts him in the top 5. Kobe may be the greatest player for the Lakers franchise, but Magic did more for the game of basketball. Even tho he was always in LA, and may not be the greatest Laker, he meant more to basketball. If that makes sense.
Yea true he dis more for basketball in the 80s I get the history behind it but when it comes down to skill on the court Kobe is top 5 imo

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 05:33 PM
postturnover era:

1a. Magic
1b. Michael
3. Charles
4. Larry
5. Duncan
6. Kidd
7. Stockton
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. KG

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 05:34 PM
Yea true he dis more for basketball in the 80s I get the history behind it but when it comes down to skill on the court Kobe is top 5 imo

Wrong. Learn what wins games, and you wouldn't think so anymore.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 05:36 PM
MAGIC JOHNSON said Kobe is the greatest laker I don't get you he is saying that Kobe is better than him that's it case closed he has admitted it lol what's yo argument

do you have an argument of your own? Using others opinions doesn't mean squat dude.

An ex-Laker, blue and gold for life, says Kobe is the best. No bias there.....

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 05:46 PM
Scottie has more rebounds all time in the playoffs than Kobe or Jordan, more assists than Kobe or Jordan, more steals than Kobe or Jordan, more blocks than Kobe or Jordan, and less turnovers than Kobe or Jordan. That doesn't even sound right lol but he does. My last Scottie post promise.


postturnover era:

1a. Magic
1b. Michael
3. Charles
4. Larry
5. Duncan
6. Kidd
7. Stockton
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. KG

You had the stones to put Magic up top. Props to you sir! I wanted to do the same but just figured it would derail the thread because of MJ worship.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 05:55 PM
You had the stones to put Magic up top. Props to you sir! I wanted to do the same but just figured it would derail the thread because of MJ worship.

https://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-10-all-time/

Enjoy.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-25-2013, 08:12 PM
So magic said LEBRON will be better than Jordan, I guess laker fans will think that as well.

See I'm a heat fan, and I won't be biased towards Lebron. If he gets 4-6 rings, he enters the argument for top 5, where he falls in the top 5 exactly will depend on his résumé,

But that's just me. :)

Tony_Starks
06-25-2013, 08:38 PM
So magic said LEBRON will be better than Jordan, I guess laker fans will think that as well.

See I'm a heat fan, and I won't be biased towards Lebron. If he gets 4-6 rings, he enters the argument for top 5, where he falls in the top 5 exactly will depend on his résumé,

But that's just me. :)

I give you props for being a realistic Heat fan. I agree 100%. 4-6 rings and we can really talk.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 08:42 PM
Yea true he dis more for basketball in the 80s I get the history behind it but when it comes down to skill on the court Kobe is top 5 imo

well were not talking most talented players of all time. were saying greatest basketball players, like who did the most in their basketball careers, who did the greatest things, greatest achievements, most dominant.

Magic did a lot more for basketball in the 80s than Kobes done in the 2000s. We couldn't have lived without Magic but could have gone without Kobe, especially since there was a bunch of baby MJs to come into the league.

I do agree Kobe doesn't get enough credit, and he is in my top 10. But you have to try and imagine when you look or study on a legend, if they were doing that all NOW you would be blown away. Even more so than Kobe's stellar 'take-over' performances in the playoffs and what not. Kobes in the top tho for his success, performances, and skill


Lately there's bend this trend to start bashing a guy who was a dominant scorer. "He's just good at scoring!". Like scoring isn't one of if not the most important part of basketball

amos1er
06-25-2013, 08:49 PM
2013:
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 7th
WS/48: 11th
WoW WP: 10th

2012
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 3rd
WS/48: 5th
WoW WP: 12th

2011:
82games simple rating: 3rd
Hollinger PER: 3rd
WS/48: 6th
WoW WP: 6th

2011 hru 2013:
82games Simple Rating: 2nd
Hollinger PER: 4th
WS/48: 5th
WoW WP: 6th

You're Welcome.

Wow...this is a very compelling argument against all the Lebronites who pretend like Wade aint **** in order to make their boy Lebron appear much better than he really is. You paying attention to this Buckets???

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Wow...this is a very compelling argument against all the Lebronites who pretend like Wade aint **** in order to make their boy Lebron appear much better than he really is. You paying attention to this Buckets???

To be clear, LeBron is #1 in every category except "82games Simple Rating" for 2011, where he came in 2nd, and WP for 2011, where he was second to Kevin Love.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 09:08 PM
well were not talking most talented players of all time. were saying greatest basketball players, like who did the most in their basketball careers, who did the greatest things, greatest achievements, most dominant.

Magic did a lot more for basketball in the 80s than Kobes done in the 2000s. We couldn't have lived without Magic but could have gone without Kobe, especially since there was a bunch of baby MJs to come into the league.

I do agree Kobe doesn't get enough credit, and he is in my top 10. But you have to try and imagine when you look or study on a legend, if they were doing that all NOW you would be blown away. Even more so than Kobe's stellar 'take-over' performances in the playoffs and what not. Kobes in the top tho for his success, performances, and skill


Lately there's bend this trend to start bashing a guy who was a dominant scorer. "He's just good at scoring!". Like scoring isn't one of if not the most important part of basketball
Do your research. Scoring isn't important. Anyone can score given enough hots. Scorin efficiently wins games. Kobe doesn't do so. Get a clue.

martin_108
06-25-2013, 09:11 PM
null
No he said he has the greatest chance don't try to change his words up

amos1er
06-25-2013, 09:13 PM
To be clear, LeBron is #1 in every category except "82games Simple Rating" for 2011, where he came in 2nd, and WP for 2011, where he was second to Kevin Love.

All I'm saying is that people act like Wade was just a run of the mill side kick to Lebron. Which he clearly isn't. Some people even try to claim Pippen was better.

amos1er
06-25-2013, 09:14 PM
Do your research. Scoring isn't important. Anyone can score given enough hots. Scorin efficiently wins games. Kobe doesn't do so. Get a clue.

Why you trying to act like Kobe isn't an efficient scorer?

If anyone can score given enough shots, than why have so few players been able to average over 30 ppg? Plenty have had the green light to do so.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 09:16 PM
You're correct. It is always fashionable to downplay sidekicks to elevate your fav star.

That being said, injuries have limited Wade's value, thus why his WS48 and PER he ranks higher than his WS and EWA. The answer to "when has he been a top5 player" is, correctly, "every time he has been on the floor". The issue is, he has missed a lot of floor time.

Wade is great. Per minute? All-time great. Compared to Pippen, when you account for injuries? I would have to run some numbers.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 09:17 PM
Why you trying to act like Kobe isn't an efficient scorer?

If anyone can score given enough shots, than why have so few players been able to average over 30 ppg? Plenty have had the green light to do so.

Again, do your research. I will find some links for you later. Kobe is average in terms of efficiency. His longevity makes him great, but not top20.

martin_108
06-25-2013, 09:23 PM
Wade is done

martin_108
06-25-2013, 09:25 PM
MAGIC JOHNSON said Kobe is the greatest laker I don't get you he is saying that Kobe is better than him that's it case closed he has admitted it lol what's yo argument

do you have an argument of your own? Using others opinions doesn't mean squat dude.

An ex-Laker, blue and gold for life, says Kobe is the best. No bias there.....
How many all defensive first team did magic make? ....basketball is a two ways sport and Kobe was a hell of a defender in his prime years ..Kobe is a better b ball player...

martin_108
06-25-2013, 09:31 PM
Yea true he dis more for basketball in the 80s I get the history behind it but when it comes down to skill on the court Kobe is top 5 imo

Wrong. Learn what wins games, and you wouldn't think so anymore.
How many times has Kobe missed the playoffs...howany rings does he have? You just brought up.one of the worst arguments for Kobe he is a winner lol

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 09:33 PM
Wade is done

I am not sure what point you are making. Wade is a top4 SG of all time if he retires today Nd the single best playoff performing SG not named Jordan. You can call him a sidekick all you like. Pippen had a Top20 career as a sidekick. Production is what matters. Nothing else. Advanced stats all confirm Wade is still an elite performer when on the court. If he can avoid injuries he has a chance to possibly pass Kobe as the second best SG of all time.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 09:36 PM
Do your research. Scoring isn't important. Anyone can score given enough hots. Scorin efficiently wins games. Kobe doesn't do so. Get a clue.

well he's won 5 rings so I think he won some games along the way ;)
not to mention every single player, besides Ray, and legend respects the hell out of him and what he's done. You need to get a clue if you think Kobe isn't an all-time great.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 09:38 PM
I am not sure what point you are making. Wade is a top4 SG of all time if he retires today Nd the single best playoff performing SG not named Jordan. You can call him a sidekick all you like. Pippen had a Top20 career as a sidekick. Production is what matters. Nothing else. Advanced stats all confirm Wade is still an elite performer when on the court. If he can avoid injuries he has a chance to possibly pass Kobe as the second best SG of all time.

No. Wade will not pass Kobe riding Lebron and friends to more championships. He's been the most spoiled SG we've ever seen. Getting the most sickening amounts of fouls called on him, to getting Shaq, to getting Lebron and friends.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 10:03 PM
No. Wade will not pass Kobe riding Lebron and friends to more championships. He's been the most spoiled SG we've ever seen. Getting the most sickening amounts of fouls called on him, to getting Shaq, to getting Lebron and friends.

According to every advanced statistician you are wrong. No surprising, you don't know math or basketball.

Wade's problem is injuries, and Kobe's biggest asset is his health.

Career-wise it will be fun. That's reality.

MrUnbiased42
06-25-2013, 10:36 PM
Wade is not better than Kobe, and don't tell me I don't know math or basketball, because when you've watched both of them play for so long, you know who's better.

A lot of times, stats are overrated and you can't judge every player by their stats alone.

Just my 2 cents.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 10:37 PM
Wade was untouchable in the playoff series he won with Shaq. The worst favoritism of calls I've ever had to sit through. Worse than Jordan, Kobe, whomever.

Anyone who watched knows this. You say according to every advanced statistician I'm wrong yet you provide no proof of that. What are you going to show me his career fouls called per 36 minutes on thursday nights while wearing a black accessory on TNT or ABC but not ESPN or NBA TV. I mean the math may prove me wrong there.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 10:43 PM
Wade is not better than Kobe, and don't tell me I don't know math or basketball, because when you've watched both of them play for so long, you know who's better.

A lot of times, stats are overrated and you can't judge every player by their stats alone.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes. Also what did my post even have to do with math? I said he's spoiled because of foul calls in the playoffs, getting Shaq, getting Lebron + friends. That's all pretty simple mathematics. NBA star + Shaq in prime = ring. Team with Lebron in prime + great supporting cast = unfair advantage over pretty much every team. Also Ghost tickling Wade on a drive + NBA finals = Wade to line, on biggest stage.
there you go

also if you are going to insult saying "you dont know your math" just stop there. Try "you dont know the advanced statistics''. Because I was a Math Major for my first couple years in college I know the stuff.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 10:45 PM
Kobe is a better b ball player...

You wish. As I showed earlier today, Magic kills Kobe.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 10:49 PM
People who dismiss longevity are dumb. We might as well all put Tmac in the top 15 then

ATX
06-25-2013, 10:52 PM
No. Wade will not pass Kobe riding Lebron and friends to more championships. He's been the most spoiled SG we've ever seen. Getting the most sickening amounts of fouls called on him, to getting Shaq, to getting Lebron and friends.

I agree, Wade will not pass Kobe all time, however that's all I agree with.
Your faulting Wade for having Riley make moves to build a team around him? Did Kobe have elite talent around him? Did Michael? Did Magic? Did Bird?
Faulting him for being able to draw fouls? Did you Know Kobe is 5th in FTA All Time, with a great chance to be #2 All Time?
Wade, while not a top 10 All timer will finish inside the top 25, and that is extraordinary.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 10:55 PM
I agree, Wade will not pass Kobe all time, however that's all I agree with.
Your faulting Wade for having Riley make moves to build a team around him? Did Kobe have elite talent around him? Did Michael? Did Magic? Did Bird?
Faulting him for being able to draw fouls? Did you Know Kobe is 5th in FTA All Time, with a great chance to be #2 All Time?
Wade, while not a top 10 All timer will finish inside the top 25, and that is extraordinary.

I was saying undeserving foul calls. Many people feel this way who watched him in the playoffs. You could not touch him. And I'm not trying to sound bitter like he beat my team, that wasn't the case.

bagwell368
06-25-2013, 11:02 PM
Why you trying to act like Kobe isn't an efficient scorer?

If anyone can score given enough shots, than why have so few players been able to average over 30 ppg? Plenty have had the green light to do so.

Some ill-informed people are claiming Kobe is top 5 all time. Top 5 all time requires some very high standards, and Kobe is a volume shooter in that sort of discussion.

Kobe: TS%: .555 eFG%: .487
Wade: TS%: .567 eFG%: .503
Jordan: TS%: .569 eFG%: .509
Miller: TS%: .614 eFG%: .544
Billups: TS%: .581 eFG%: .496
Allen: TS%: .580 eFG%: .530
Magic: TS%: .610 eFG%: .533
Bird: TS%: .564 eFG%: .514
Nash: TS%: .605 eFG%: .557
Pierce: TS%: .568 eFG%: .499
Dirk: TS%: .581 eFG%: .511
Barkley: TS%: .612 eFG%: .558

So here is a solid list of top 10's, top 25's, even a couple of top 60's - and Kobe is a volume shooter compared to all of them. Every single one. Hmmmmm...

Kobe is a great player, but he's not top 5, and never will be.

Hawkeye15
06-25-2013, 11:23 PM
How many all defensive first team did magic make? ....basketball is a two ways sport and Kobe was a hell of a defender in his prime years ..Kobe is a better b ball player...

prove why Kobe is the best Laker, in your opinion.

ThuglifeJ
06-25-2013, 11:33 PM
no DR J love btw

OceanSpray
06-25-2013, 11:52 PM
Magic, Shaq, and West all said Kobe is the greatest Lakers player of all time. Those 3 are arguably the greatest to play the game. If Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, that can only mean he's better than Magic and West.

Lakersfan2483
06-26-2013, 12:04 AM
Everyone's criteria for their top 10 is usually a little different. Having said that, here's my top 10 list of players of all time based on winning, ability to make others better, ability to take over games, accomplishments, leadership, talent, stats, etc.....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'neal
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Lebron James

Honorable Mention: Oscar Robertson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Jerry West, Moses Malone

Lakersfan2483
06-26-2013, 12:10 AM
Top 5 by position:

Point Guards: Magic, Oscar, Isaiah, Stockton, Frazier

Shooting Guards: Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, Wade

Small Forwards: Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, Havlicek, Barry

Power Forwards: Duncan, K. Malone, Barkley, K. Garnett, D. Nowitzki

Centers: Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem

OceanSpray
06-26-2013, 05:42 AM
Top 5 by position:

Point Guards: Magic, Oscar, Isaiah, Stockton, Frazier

Shooting Guards: Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, Wade

Small Forwards: Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, Havlicek, Barry

Power Forwards: Duncan, K. Malone, Barkley, K. Garnett, D. Nowitzki

Centers: Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem

Havlicek over Wilkins/Pippen makes no sense.

bagwell368
06-26-2013, 06:10 AM
Havlicek over Wilkins/Pippen makes no sense.

Wilkins is garbage. If I was building a team to play todays players I'd easily take Pippen over Havlicek, but since these lists are built on history, Pippen doesn't have enough to challenge Hondo.

bagwell368
06-26-2013, 06:17 AM
Magic, Shaq, and West all said Kobe is the greatest Lakers player of all time. Those 3 are arguably the greatest to play the game. If Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time, that can only mean he's better than Magic and West.

So the Laker greats sing Cumbaya, just like the Celt great players and media members did for Pierce the last two years. As if anybody is stupid enough to buy that Pierce > Bird.

I'm not a Lakers fan. Respect the franchise, have hated them at times, but Kobe peak can't touch Wilt, KAJ, Magic, West. Career wise he can't touch Magic or KAJ. And in the NBA all time Kobe as a top 5 player is laughable - by eye and by stat.

GMpunk
06-26-2013, 01:23 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(6 MVPS)
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Kobe
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. LeBron James
10. jerry west

GMpunk
06-26-2013, 01:24 PM
Russell is over rated .....

BklynKnicks3
06-26-2013, 06:12 PM
Top 5 by position:

Point Guards: Magic, isiah, kidd, stockton, oscar

Shooting Guards: Jordan, Kobe, Wade,west, earl monroe

Small Forwards: Bird, Lebron, Dr. J, pippen, Melo

Power Forwards: Duncan, K. Malone, Barkley, K. Garnett, D. Nowitzki

Centers: Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem

Agree with the centers order is debtable

AYozzy
06-26-2013, 06:15 PM
how do some of you not put Oscar in your top 10

MrUnbiased42
06-26-2013, 06:20 PM
how do some of you not put Oscar in your top 10

Same thing I said. I have him at #3.

OceanSpray
06-26-2013, 10:27 PM
Lmao, Havlicek over Wilkins pretty much says everything about this forum. Wilkins played in a tougher league, Havlicek played in a weak era and was on a stacked Boston team for a majority of his career. He was also a very inconsistent scorer. You guys are way too nostalgic. Those players were not GODS like you all believe. Most of you just have Bird/Magic/Jordan because you're following what everyone else says. Bird's career was short. Was his prime better than Pierce? Sure. But Pierce's longevity is not something you can ignore. Just like Bird, Magic also had a short career. Bryant no doubt has done more for the Lakers organization. But I'm not going to argue, it's clear many of you can't think for yourselves. Havlicek over Wilkins? Wow, you got to be kidding me. And then you guys have Oscar Robertson at #3 when he has only one ring, but when you want to compare Jordan vs LeBron, you say LeBron needs more rings? How does LeBron need more rings when Oscar only has one and he's #3? 1960-1980's is arguably the weakest era's. That's why you have a whole league of players but only 5-7 of them were able to put up those insanely realistically numbers. If you guys don't think Magic or LeBron can't average a triple double in that era, you're just lying to yourselves, or not thinking.

bucketss
06-26-2013, 10:35 PM
Agree with the centers order is debtable

you only agree because he snuck melo in there.

bagwell368
06-26-2013, 11:14 PM
Lmao, Havlicek over Wilkins pretty much says everything about this forum. Wilkins played in a tougher league, Havlicek played in a weak era and was on a stacked Boston team for a majority of his career.

Generally the way players are judged is against their own time - otherwise almost nobody before 1980 is included. Specify that in your list, but don't pretend your list is authoritative when it's a joke.

#1. Havlicek was one of the greatest defensive forwards of all time - Wilkins was garbage.
#2. Havlicek like Wilkins was a volume scorer, but got a good deal more efficient the 2nd half of his career. Wilkins never got efficient.
#3. Havlicek was the best player on six different Celt teams, including 2 Championship teams. He was 13 All Star teams, won a Finals MVP, and won 8 titles, also Hondo was the greatest sixth man of all time. WIlkins was on 9 All Star teams, and won no titles.
#4. Havlicek was a great teammate, passer, and Coached the offense for 3 years, while Russell had the D. Wilkens thought only of himself and was a loser, he played for two Championship level teams, and they couldn't win in large part because he was too busy primping his stats

Again you pontificate on issues you have no first hand knowledge of, and clearly haven't spent any time studying.


Bird's career was short. Was his prime better than Pierce? Sure. But Pierce's longevity is not something you can ignore.

Bird was better at everything than Pierce - easily, no contest. Who could argue for James as an all time great when he's played such a short time, and then not accept Bird and Magic when they played more games? A hypocrite perhaps?


Havlicek over Wilkins? Wow, you got to be kidding me.

Keep digging the hole deeper.


And then you guys have Oscar Robertson at #3 when he has only one ring

Robertson was clearly the 2nd most dominant player of his time (behind Wilt), playing on a weak Royals team. If Russell was on several other teams back then, he'd have zero titles. Titles not won on teams that could have won - that means something. 3rd is too high, but Oscar fits someplace between 8-14.


you're just lying to yourselves, or not thinking.

Look in the mirror.

OceanSpray
06-26-2013, 11:26 PM
Lmao, Havlicek over Wilkins! You brought up players are judged on their time yet you fail to acknowledge that NBA was incredibly weak back then. Havlicek would be an average player in Jordan's or the modern era. I never said Bird wasn't better than Pierce in his prime, I simply stated that Pierce's longevity may give him an argument. Bird wasn't exactly spectacular in his beginning and ending years, he was only great for around 4 years. You are just a fool. Havlicek over Wilkins is pretty much all I have to say. John Havlicek wasn't even the best on that 1976 championship team. For his six first NBA championships, he barely cracked 40% FG%. Dude was incredibly inefficient. So he averages terrible offensive numbers in an incredibly weak era and yet he's better than someone who was a legit 30 PPG scorer in one of the toughest era of basketball? Wilt averaged 50/25 PPG, would he average those stats in Jordan's/the modern era? No! John Havlicek wouldn't either! And I don't care what Oscar Robertson did in his time. If he's the second most dominant of his time and only has one ring, what puts him above the most dominant player of his team and two ring champion, LeBron James? I keep digging a hole because I"m burying you over and over again. No one has seen the numbers of Oscar's/Wilt's and those crazy rebounding numbers in over 50 years. Now, why exactly is that the case? Are you saying Oscar could average a triple double in Jordan's era? Are you saying Wilt would average 50 PPG/25 RPG in Jordan's era?

tredigs
06-27-2013, 12:04 AM
I love that the kid is laughing hysterically at the notion of Hondo over Wilkins and completely dismisses any argument of it.

I can't think of NBA All Time list I've ever seen in print with Wilkins over him. Ever. And they're never very close, either. I guess he hates defense and winning. Though to be fair, he hates on any player before 1980 with equal passion. Although he also feels the late 80's were weak basketball as well hahahah.


James Donaldson, Artis Gilmore. Those were the centers Kareem went up against? If that's your proof, I rest my case. All you proved was that Kareem managed to put up huge numbers against James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore. You also pointed that Kareem was top 5-10 in the MVP voting, but who else would NBA vote for? It was still pretty weak in that time as well.

To be clear, "it was still pretty weak in that time as well" was his reference to the late 80's when I mentioned that KAJ was still top 5 in MVP voting in '86. For reference, the voting went Bird, WILKINS (his highest finish in the season he won his scoring title - on a 53% TS%...), Magic, Hakeem, KAJ, Barkley. Prime Moses Malone and McHale finished 10th and 13th in this clearly "pretty weak" era, respectively.

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2013, 01:57 AM
OceanSpray how old are you. Just curious

martin_108
06-27-2013, 02:38 AM
Wade is done

I am not sure what point you are making. Wade is a top4 SG of all time if he retires today Nd the single best playoff performing SG not named Jordan. You can call him a sidekick all you like. Pippen had a Top20 career as a sidekick. Production is what matters. Nothing else. Advanced stats all confirm Wade is still an elite performer when on the court. If he can avoid injuries he has a chance to possibly pass Kobe as the second best SG of all time.
Wow u really just said he can be better than Kobe lol that's disrespect to Kobe wade is not in the same class as Kobe...kobe is a legend wade is just a very good player in a generation hes not an icon like Kobe is lol can't believe u said that

martin_108
06-27-2013, 02:43 AM
Kobe is a better b ball player...

You wish. As I showed earlier today, Magic kills Kobe. Kobe will give it to Magic man people hate giving Kobe credit y'all jus mad cuz he gets mentioned in comparisons to Jordan hmmmm I wonder why maybe cuz hes that good give credit where credit is due Kobe ain't even done and his resume is at par or even better than magics and that's a fact

martin_108
06-27-2013, 03:08 AM
How many all defensive first team did magic make? ....basketball is a two ways sport and Kobe was a hell of a defender in his prime years ..Kobe is a better b ball player...

prove why Kobe is the best Laker, in your opinion.
In basketball u play something called defense that fans like u don't think.is important Magic never made an all defensive team his defense was not good consistently got beat by quick guards off the dribble... Kobe has made 11 all defensive teams 9 first team and one of the best perimeter defenders to ever play and isn't bad for a 34 year old Brandon Jennings said Kobe played the beat D on him in his nba career this past season not bad for a 34 year old...he has broken most of the laker records that u could look up yourself ...he's arguably the Lakers best offensive and defensive player they ever had Magic is a top 5 player but Kobe has surpassed him even he has admitted to it

amos1er
06-27-2013, 05:46 AM
Love how you all say Lebron is already top ten, yet there is not one credible published list that has him in the top ten. It's only here on PSD that everyone acts like it's common knowledge and resorts calling you childish names and throwing temper tantrums if you disagree with them. It's like the Lebronites of the world got together and congregated onto this site.

http://www.sportscity.com/whos-the-best-of-all-time-the-top-10-players-in-nba-history/2013/04/05/

http://www.sportscity.com/whos-the-b...ry/2013/04/05/

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/02/15/the-50-best-players-in-nba-history-may-surprise-you/

http://www.wonderslist.com/top-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time/

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2013/03/top-50-nba-players-of-all-time/

http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/r...a-history.html

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/679485

All of these list have Kobe at 7 and Lebron anywhere from 16-14. Funny how some of you don't even have Kobe in your top ten, yet have Lebron there while no published list agrees with any of you. There is also not one published list I have found that does not include Kobe in the top ten. Looks to me like your all the lone quacks trying to convince everybody that your idol is better then he really is. All are recent lists btw. Even celticslife.com has Kobe at 6. lol I defy any of you to provide one published top ten of all time list that has Lebron in it or that does not have Kobe in it. I'm sure you can't because it doesn't exist. Case closed.

WadeKobe
06-27-2013, 06:22 AM
Love how you all say Lebron is already top ten, yet there is not credible published list that has him in the top ten. It's only here on PSD that everyone acts like it's common knowledge and resorts calling you childish names and throwing temper tantrums if you disagree with them. It's like the Lebronites of the world got together and congregated onto this site.

http://www.clicktop10.com/2013/05/to...s-of-all-time/

http://www.sportscity.com/whos-the-b...ry/2013/04/05/

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/0...-you/#slide_37

http://www.wonderslist.com/top-10-gr...s-of-all-time/

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/20...f-all-time/#46

http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/r...a-history.html

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/...rs-of-all-time

All of these list have Kobe at 7 and Lebron anywhere from 16-14. Funny how some of you don't even have Kobe in your top ten, yet have Lebron there while no published list agrees with any of you. Looks to me like your all the lone quacks trying to convince everybody that your idol is better then he really is. All are recent lists btw. Even celticslife.com has Kobe at 6. lol I defy any of you to provide one published top ten of all time list that has Lebron in it. I'm sure you can't because it doesn't exist. Case closed.

If you knew what won games, you'd know this is the only published list that matters.
https://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-10-all-time/
http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-25-players-part-two/

Kobe nowhere to be found. Lebron @17. Done.

add 2 chips, 2 mvps, 30 wins produced, and 8 playoff wins produced.... Lebron is likely moved into top14 area.

MrUnbiased42
06-27-2013, 06:56 AM
If you knew what won games, you'd know this is the only published list that matters.
https://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-10-all-time/
http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-25-players-part-two/

Kobe nowhere to be found. Lebron @17. Done.

add 2 chips, 2 mvps, 30 wins produced, and 8 playoff wins produced.... Lebron is likely moved into top14 area.

Notice how the title of this list says "Silly little stats". This list is not even about the top greatest players. You really expect people to take you seriously with this dumb list that proves absolutely nothing? Lol get outta here with this nonsense.

-100.

amos1er
06-27-2013, 07:03 AM
If you knew what won games, you'd know this is the only published list that matters.
https://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-10-all-time/
http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/nerd-numbers-guest-post-top-25-players-part-two/

Kobe nowhere to be found. Lebron @17. Done.

add 2 chips, 2 mvps, 30 wins produced, and 8 playoff wins produced.... Lebron is likely moved into top14 area.


Lol Jordan at number three, Barkley at number 2, and Kidd at number 5. I did specify the list had to be credible right. :laugh2: