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LTBaByyy
06-22-2013, 08:36 PM
Both players have made a name for themselves this season and playoffs and look to be perennial all stars.

But I'm having a hard time deciding who I would have more.

At first it was George being a break out season and all star

But after the playoffs and especially Finals when Leonard showed he has as much skills on offense as he does defense, they are even to me

and I am sure Manu will take a back seat next year and Leonard will have more of a role on offense with the Spurs

They are so even to me it's crazy. Leonard will have the same break out next season that George had this year.

They rebound amazing for their position

They play superb defense

They both have the same offensive game. Shooting the 3 or the way they take it to the hole and make the athletic play

They both are 2 of the best athletic players in the NBA

koreancabbage
06-22-2013, 08:41 PM
George for me.

but you can't go wrong with Leonard either.

JC_
06-22-2013, 08:43 PM
Both are great but PG for me as well.

seikou8
06-22-2013, 08:54 PM
Both are great but PG for me as well.

this but I think kawi is the better defender

5ass
06-22-2013, 08:57 PM
George is better at almost everything

xxplayerxx23
06-22-2013, 09:04 PM
George is better at almost everything

Idk about that.

OceanSpray
06-22-2013, 09:06 PM
I wouldn't say George is the better player. He just has more opportunities. Leonard won't grow as a player if he doesn't speak up, though. Heard he's very quiet and you can't be grow if you're not willing to speak up.

LTBaByyy
06-22-2013, 09:09 PM
George is better at almost everything

Are you looking at stats?

Ummm George is the first option, played more minutes, and put up 17 and 8

Leonard is the 4th option, less minutes, and still put up 12 pts and 6 reb

Next year Leonard will take a bigger role

The playoffs is what made me think of them as even. If you watched Leonard in the Finals you have to believe how good he is and will be.

Pakman
06-22-2013, 09:09 PM
George would have made those free throws in game 6 nuff said

Sadds The Gr8
06-22-2013, 09:09 PM
depends what my team needs. If I want someone with potential to be a #1b/#2, I take PG. If I want a guy that'll be great as a #3/role player, I take Kawhi. Basically, PG is better on ball, Kawhi is better off-ball.

For the Raps, I'd take George.

tredigs
06-22-2013, 09:14 PM
George is more potent, but Kawhi more apt to help you win a championship. I like them both. Show me the team they're on first.

ManRam
06-22-2013, 09:14 PM
people i think got/are still getting a bit carried away with george. he really isn't terribly efficient scoring-wise and i think people sometimes pretend he is a great scorer or a good 1st option. it's not a huge knock to say he isn't a great #1 option, but he just wasn't. and leonard certainly isn't either. george does do everything else pretty much at an above average clip for a SF. i think leonard could mold into a better scorer, but we'll only really know when he starts having to shoot 13-14+ times a game. right now despite his superior efficiency i can't say he's a better scorer at this point because he's never really had to carry the burden.

paul is a better passer/playmaker
they're equal rebounders
i struggle to differentiate them defensively. i think kawhi has better instincts and awareness, but george might be a bit better overall at this point
they're probably equal 3 point shooters, maybe the slightest edge to george


george is the better player but it's closer than i think a lot want to think. until we see leonard play out of the current bubble he's kinda in (a lot of the pressure is alleviated by the trio they have and the system) i can't say he's better. i do think he could become better under the guidance of Pop.

i love leonard's demeanor too. he's gonna be a rock of a leader.

through all my babbling i guess i conclude that it depends on the situation. i'd probably take george more times than leonard though.

DTownSkitzo
06-22-2013, 09:20 PM
First of all, I would be ecstatic if the Pistons were handed either one. If I had to choose between the two I would choose Leonard by a small margin. With the SF position being deep in this league I would go for a do-it-all SF who is a lock down defender. George is a good defender as well, but Leonard is both an above average ISO defender as well as a system defender.

Tough choice. Both players will grow and get better. Like I said, I'll take either one with open arms ;)

Clippersfan86
06-22-2013, 09:31 PM
Funny because I thought about making this exact thread yesterday afternoon. I'd take Kawhi. He's a guy that's much easier to plug into any system where as I think George has to be on a specific team to contribute at the level he does.

xxplayerxx23
06-22-2013, 09:32 PM
George would have made those free throws in game 6 nuff said

Lol no

sunsfan88
06-22-2013, 09:33 PM
Leonard's ceiling is Shawn Marion. George's ceiling is Joe Johnson/Wade combo.

I'll take George anyday because he's more of a star than Leonard.

rockets-fan
06-22-2013, 09:34 PM
CHANDLER PARSONS!

Kidding, I'd take PG, dude reminds me of a young Tmac for some reason.

Clippersfan86
06-22-2013, 09:40 PM
CHANDLER PARSONS!

Kidding, I'd take PG, dude reminds me of a young Tmac for some reason.

I'd take Parsons over both and Kawhi second. I think George thrives with the huge green light as a 1st option this year but let's see him next to more ball dominant players and guys competing for the ball with him.

BALLER R
06-22-2013, 09:43 PM
Offensive- George
Defense- Leonard.

IndyRealist
06-22-2013, 09:59 PM
As a fan of both teams, I'd say George is more athletic and slightly quicker, Leonard has a more filled out frame and is a better defender. George is more of a ballhander and passer, but that also leads to more turnovers (lots of turnovers). Leonard is a better finisher, George better at getting his own shot. Of course the caveat is that this has a lot to do with how the teams use each player.

To think, the Pacers could have had both of them.

RipCity32
06-22-2013, 10:04 PM
George

mngopher35
06-22-2013, 10:19 PM
This is really close for me, but I say PG just barely. Can't go wrong with either though, great young players.

sunnyice
06-22-2013, 10:29 PM
Kawhi Leonard for me. IMO he's a better all around player. Its hard to find a player as humble as Kawhi. Coaches love that type of player.

STAT1
06-22-2013, 10:39 PM
I'm taking George because he can create on his own. His D is solid enough.

LTBaByyy
06-22-2013, 10:47 PM
People saying Leonard can't create his own, did y'all watch the Finals?!?!?!? He took Lebron off the dribble more than a few times

He can. He just has Parker and Manu that play all minutes at PG so it's hard to get ISO plays

JdKing7
06-22-2013, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't say George is the better player. He just has more opportunities. Leonard won't grow as a player if he doesn't speak up, though. Heard he's very quiet and you can't be grow if you're not willing to speak up.

I wouldn't go that far. He is on a team full of seasoned veterans so he doesn't really need to speak up all that much in the situation he is in. Who knows, if he was on another team that lacked experienced players as much as duncan, parker, etc. he might speak up more. I prefer a player who speaks more with their play rather than their mouth. He probably will end up being more vocal as he gets more comfortable in the league and as his career and experience progresses. I really like both kawhi and pg as players and expect lengthy successful careers and big things from both of them. It really depends on what your team needs are. Right now I would probably take Paul George but it wouldn't be an easy choice. You really couldn't go wrong with either of them and any team would love to add youthful pieces as good as both of them are.

Jarvo
06-22-2013, 10:51 PM
Paul is a better scorer but Kawhi is better on Defense and will get better at scoring when the team would focus on him more.

dodie53
06-22-2013, 10:58 PM
PG for me.
much better scorer imo.

5ass
06-22-2013, 11:07 PM
Are you looking at stats?

Ummm George is the first option, played more minutes, and put up 17 and 8

Leonard is the 4th option, less minutes, and still put up 12 pts and 6 reb

Next year Leonard will take a bigger role

The playoffs is what made me think of them as even. If you watched Leonard in the Finals you have to believe how good he is and will be.
George is a legit #2 option on a championship team. He has better handles, better vision, better shot, and is a slightly better defender. Kawhi isnt on his level yet. Its close, but i would take paul george.

koreancabbage
06-22-2013, 11:26 PM
George is a legit #2 option on a championship team. He has better handles, better vision, better shot, and is a slightly better defender. Kawhi isnt on his level yet. Its close, but i would take paul george.


after all that saying Paul George is better at everything, you say it's close? lol

Daze9900
06-22-2013, 11:33 PM
Both have great potential I think I'd have to go with Paul George. I think his ceiling is higher and he has experience putting a team on his back. Leonard is a stud and played well this finals with his scoring/defense/rebounding. I think he's still developing but the jury is still out on him as well.

shep33
06-22-2013, 11:53 PM
Like others have mentioned, George has a lot more responsibility on the perimeter in terms of scoring.

Something about Kawhi though... I think he can be better than PG.

I'm going Kawhi

IKnowHoops
06-22-2013, 11:57 PM
I think they are equal in every way accept athletic ability. And thats why I give Paul george the edge. If Leonard had PG athletic ability then he would be PG. Paul Gerorge is a lil faster, quicker, more explosive, and I'd give him about 4-6 inches on vertical leap. They both look very long, not sure whos longer. But George is better, and will be better in the long run as well.

LTBaByyy
06-23-2013, 02:25 AM
I think they are equal in every way accept athletic ability. And thats why I give Paul george the edge. If Leonard had PG athletic ability then he would be PG. Paul Gerorge is a lil faster, quicker, more explosive, and I'd give him about 4-6 inches on vertical leap. They both look very long, not sure whos longer. But George is better, and will be better in the long run as well.

You do know Leonard has a 7'3 wingspan and 32.0 vertical

He is pretty athletic.

ChiTownPacerFan
06-23-2013, 03:14 AM
Kawhi Leonard is not a better defender than George! PG is a top three perimeter defender (along with Iggy and Tony Allen). Leaonard has tremendous upside, but George is way better player (who happens to probably also have a higher ceiling). Anyone who picks Kawhi is out of their mind.

gotoHcarolina52
06-23-2013, 03:16 AM
Jimmy Butler

ThaDubs
06-23-2013, 03:59 AM
It's hard because George is an all-star already and is better than Kawhi at literally everything accept rebounding. But then again Kawhi is much younger and is a ridiculous rebounder.

OceanSpray
06-23-2013, 04:14 AM
The only thing stopping Leonard is Leonard. He needs to speak up if he wants more opportunities. With Manu probably gone, Spurs need to take advantage of Leonard. Dude is too quiet to speak up. George does not have better defense than Leonard. The reason why James didn't completely dominate George was because of Roy Hibbert, not George. Leonard on the other hand did an amazing job on James, forcing him to shoot jumpers. Not saying Tim Duncan ain't there, but Roy Hibbert is a bigger body.

naps
06-23-2013, 05:18 AM
Kawhi Leonard. Anyone who's watched the knows what I am talking about. He's a 4th option and PG is a 1st option. If Granger comes back and demands the ball as much (which won't happen though) PG will not look as impressive. Watch out next season as I am assuming Kawhi will take on a bigger role offensively. I have no doubt that he's going to be the cornerstone of that great Spurs franchise oneday.

Trueblue2
06-23-2013, 05:59 AM
Are you looking at stats?

Ummm George is the first option, played more minutes, and put up 17 and 8

Leonard is the 4th option, less minutes, and still put up 12 pts and 6 reb

Next year Leonard will take a bigger role

The playoffs is what made me think of them as even. If you watched Leonard in the Finals you have to believe how good he is and will be.

Per 36 George puts up significantly better counting stats. So the minutes thing doesn't make as big of a difference as you might think. Even last year with Granger in the line up George put up pretty similar per 36 stats as a 2nd/3rd option. I agree that Leonard will be better next year with more focus on him offensively, but from what we've seen George is clearly the better player.

Leonard is the more efficient player but I'm not so sure that he'll be able to be as efficient with an increased role. When he's more of a focus on offense his TS% and eFG% will go down because defenses will start to focus on stopping him more. They're both great young players, but George has shown that he can take on an increased role and still be as productive as his per 36 and advanced stats would indicate. Leonard has not.

ecorrea
06-23-2013, 08:06 AM
Jimmy buckets. I think he falls in the same category for this type of question.

I think all three are gonna be perennial studs but I would prob take Leonard and jimmy over Paul George if I'm looking for efficiency, and pg if I'm looking for that guy looking to take the rock and make the difference on the offensive end.

IndyRealist
06-23-2013, 10:02 AM
Kawhi Leonard is not a better defender than George! PG is a top three perimeter defender (along with Iggy and Tony Allen). Leaonard has tremendous upside, but George is way better player (who happens to probably also have a higher ceiling). Anyone who picks Kawhi is out of their mind.

I'd disagree. Paul George is quicker than Leonard and can guard PGs, but George has more trouble against big strong guys because of his slight build. You can put on muscle, but you can't make your shoulders wider. Leonard has the edge defensively guarding Lebron and when switched onto PFs on pick n' roll. Guarding 2/3/4, I'd give it to Leonard.

BcEuAbRsS
06-23-2013, 10:17 AM
This is actually a tough choice, but I go with George because I think he has more offensive upside.

king4day
06-23-2013, 11:48 AM
I'd take George. He looks like he's growing into a superstar. Leonard needs a bigger role to judge. Based on what we know now, I'd take George. He was practically single handedly almost beat the Heat.

KobeOwnSU
06-23-2013, 12:19 PM
I'd take George. He looks like he's growing into a superstar. Leonard needs a bigger role to judge. Based on what we know now, I'd take George. He was practically single handedly almost beat the Heat.

Leonard single handedly kept the Spurs in Game 7 of the NBA finals. When Parker and Manu (the other "stars") didn't show up for the biggest game of their careers, Leonard did, oh and at 21 years old.

tredigs
06-23-2013, 02:02 PM
It's hard because George is an all-star already and is better than Kawhi at literally everything accept rebounding. But then again Kawhi is much younger and is a ridiculous rebounder.

Not just rebounding. They're a wash at best from 3 (Kawhi being the more efficient scorer overall, though that will come closer as their team roles become more in line), and man to man defense I would give to Leonard as well. Really the only glaring advantage they have on one another is Leonard's rebounding and George's playmaking. Due to George's role obviously he scores more, but I don't see any reason why Leonard wouldn't be a 15-18 ppg scorer in PG's role in Indiana.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-23-2013, 02:44 PM
George for me

Guppyfighter
06-23-2013, 02:47 PM
It's Kawhi and it's not close. Kawhi and George have similar ceilings on defense, but Kawhi is a vastly better player on offense and he will just get better. And Hatehimorlovehim said Paul, which is another tell tale sign Kawhi is better.

Leonard > George

ManRam
06-23-2013, 03:01 PM
He was practically single handedly almost beat the Heat.

Really?

If we're speaking in silly absolute statements here, then "Roy Hibbert practically single handily almost beat the Heat". Hibbert's defense was the definition of game-changing, and offensively he was more unstoppable.

PG was tremendous, but was it even that much more tremendous than Leonard?

PG: 19-6-5 on 47.5% shooting
KL: 15-11-1 on 51.3% shooting

We'll never know for certain who's the better scorer until Leonard has to carry the load. He's more efficient now but you'd expect him to be. Leonard's rebounding and George's play-making are the biggest difference makers at this point. If George was a better scorer as a #1 option then I'd be more inclined to take him...but he really wasn't. That offense stunk this year and his ability to be the offensive leader was greatly exaggerated.

And without diving into the defensive stats, I felt like Leonard did a better job on LeBron than George. LeBron certainly had a better ECF than Finals.

Jets012
06-23-2013, 03:16 PM
people i think got/are still getting a bit carried away with george. he really isn't terribly efficient scoring-wise and i think people sometimes pretend he is a great scorer or a good 1st option. it's not a huge knock to say he isn't a great #1 option, but he just wasn't. and leonard certainly isn't either. george does do everything else pretty much at an above average clip for a SF. i think leonard could mold into a better scorer, but we'll only really know when he starts having to shoot 13-14+ times a game. right now despite his superior efficiency i can't say he's a better scorer at this point because he's never really had to carry the burden.

paul is a better passer/playmaker
they're equal rebounders
i struggle to differentiate them defensively. i think kawhi has better instincts and awareness, but george might be a bit better overall at this point
they're probably equal 3 point shooters, maybe the slightest edge to george


george is the better player but it's closer than i think a lot want to think. until we see leonard play out of the current bubble he's kinda in (a lot of the pressure is alleviated by the trio they have and the system) i can't say he's better. i do think he could become better under the guidance of Pop.

i love leonard's demeanor too. he's gonna be a rock of a leader.

through all my babbling i guess i conclude that it depends on the situation. i'd probably take george more times than leonard though.

Basically agree with everything you said, except for George being the better rebounder. Kahwi's a bit better. Hell, I'd probably take Kahwi's defense over George. Kahwi is a much better matchup against LeBron than George is, but George would probably be stronger than Kahwi against someone like Durant/Wade.


Paul is a better scorer but Kawhi is better on Defense and will get better at scoring when the team would focus on him more.

Not true. George's efficiency is pretty bad (I'll give him a little bit of a break because he was the #1, #2 option for them). Kahwi is efficient as they come and actually might be a better 3 point shooter. George is definitely the better playmaker though.


It's hard because George is an all-star already and is better than Kawhi at literally everything accept rebounding. But then again Kawhi is much younger and is a ridiculous rebounder.

Kahwi's the better defender IMO and arguably the better shooter.

Kahwi's Career 3 Point Percentage (Regular Season Then Postseason): .375% / .414%
George's Career 3 Point Percentage (Regular Season Then Postseason): .358% / .304%


Leonard single handedly kept the Spurs in Game 7 of the NBA finals. When Parker and Manu (the other "stars") didn't show up for the biggest game of their careers, Leonard did, oh and at 21 years old.

Duncan did, then Kahwi.

king4day
06-23-2013, 03:20 PM
Really?

If we're speaking in silly absolute statements here, then "Roy Hibbert practically single handily almost beat the Heat". Hibbert's defense was the definition of game-changing, and offensively he was more unstoppable.

PG was tremendous, but was it even that much more tremendous than Leonard?

PG: 19-6-5 on 47.5% shooting
KL: 15-11-1 on 51.3% shooting

We'll never know for certain who's the better scorer until Leonard has to carry the load. He's more efficient now but you'd expect him to be. Leonard's rebounding and George's play-making are the biggest difference makers at this point. If George was a better scorer as a #1 option then I'd be more inclined to take him...but he really wasn't. That offense stunk this year and his ability to be the offensive leader was greatly exaggerated.

And without diving into the defensive stats, I felt like Leonard did a better job on LeBron than George. LeBron certainly had a better ECF than Finals.

I'll go with the guy who defended James very well (I know Leonard did too) and had less star power to help him. Outside of Hibbert, George was the best player.
For Leonard, it's easier to score when you aren't the primary guy that the opposing team has to worry about. Parker, Duncan, and despite playing poorly, Manu as well. If the teams are going to prepare themselves to defend Leonard as a scorer, this conversation might not even exist. I'll pass on the unknown.

jimm120
06-23-2013, 03:23 PM
Yeah. Three players over the past few years have really impressed me and have seemed to be great #2's in the league for years to come.

Paul George, Leanord, and Iman Shumpart (with Iman being the worst one of the 3).

All 3 of these young players seem to display promising offensive games (which is started to show for George already, while Leonard and Iman are still developing but we see flashes) while also have great, stellar defense.

All 3 seem to be guys that could be great #2's on teams. Being a great scoring option and being great on defense (something that #1 players usually aren't).

Korman12
06-23-2013, 04:19 PM
Like others said, can't really go wrong with either.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 04:52 PM
George has more offensive potential, George can score in isolation sets when needed whereas Leonard is a garbage buckets type of guy and not a guy you can run your offense through. I see Leonard as one of the best role players in the NBA, but he's not a guy who can carry a team and I don't think he has that potential, I don't think he will be more than a 3rd option Luol Deng type whereas Paul George is a legit Robin in this league. Both are two of my favorite players in the NBA.

Guppyfighter
06-23-2013, 04:54 PM
George has more offensive potential, George can score in isolation sets when needed whereas Leonard is a garbage buckets type of guy. I see Leonard as one of the best role players in the NBA, but he's not a guy who can carry a team and I don't think he has that potential, I don't think he will be more than a 3rd option Luol Deng type whereas Paul George is a legit Robin in this league. Both are two of my favorite players in the NBA.

No way. That's definitely wrong. Kawhi is really good in isolation. Pop just doesn't let players in his offense isolate often, because it's stupid.

b@llhog24
06-23-2013, 05:28 PM
Kawhi Island.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 05:36 PM
No way. That's definitely wrong. Kawhi is really good in isolation. Pop just doesn't let players in his offense isolate often, because it's stupid.

Throughout the course of a basketball game your going to be forced into isolation sets. Kawhi is not a guy who can go get you buckets without a play ran for him, being spoonfed an open jumper, or receiving the ball against an off-balance/scrambling defense/defender. He doesn't have the 1 on 1 potential that George does, and before you waste your time posting his PPP in isolation sets, I will say that isn't as sustainable with higher usage in those situations as it is for George, and he is never going against the oppositions best wing defender like George is on a nightly basis.

I don't think you can be a legit second option in this league without the ability to get buckets out of broken plays or late clock isolation sets, because NBA defenses are going to force you into those situations many times throughout every game, and you need your first and second options to be able to score in those situations. I think George can do that on a nightly basis against the oppositions best defender on a championship caliber second option level. I don't think Leonard can.

Guppyfighter
06-23-2013, 05:45 PM
He's very good in isolation and that's patently false.

Kawhi will never have a high usage for isolation because not only is that a stupid thing to have a high usage in, the Spurs offense doesn't allow it. They score a lot of points and they do it well. And when they need to go to isolation they do it fine.

Kawhi has a player shouldn't be docked because he's in a good system.

Kawhi is going to be a top five player at some point.

mrblisterdundee
06-23-2013, 05:54 PM
This is a good question. They're both on a similar trajectory, although each is better at different things. And let's not forget that both their teams took Miami to the limit.
If I'm looking for a top player, I'm taking Paul George. He, like Kawhi Leonard, can defend shooting guards and small forward, even though Leonard is better. But ultimately, I think George will be a better scorer and distributor.
When they did go up against LeBron James and the Heat, George had more pressure on him than Leonard, and he contributed more, even though Leonard defended James better.
It's going to be awesome watching these two go head-to-head.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 05:57 PM
He's very good in isolation and that's patently false.

Kawhi will never have a high usage for isolation because not only is that a stupid thing to have a high usage in, the Spurs offense doesn't allow it. They score a lot of points and they do it well. And when they need to go to isolation they do it fine.

Kawhi has a player shouldn't be docked because he's in a good system.

Kawhi is going to be a top five player at some point.

Your smoking crack with statements like that.

No one is docking him, Leonard is one of my favorite players. I don't see the potential to be an offensive star, I don't think he has that ceiling, I think George does as he continues to refine his game. I think he has the foundation to do it, don't think Leonard does. I think you can run your offense through George in pick and rolls and isolations, you can't do that with Kawhi. And your championship level second option can't be a guy who needs to consistently be set up by teammates or by XO design to score because your going to be forced into tough situations and have to score out of broken plays.

Right now they run Parker in the screen game and Duncan in the post game as their bread and butter plays in the offense, those are essentially the first and second options and everything, including Leonards production, feeds off of that. You can't replace that with Leonard in the pick and roll game, Leonard in the post, Leonard in isolations on a championship level. How else could you run your offense through Leonard, or any player for that matter? Leonard benefits from running the offense through true first and second options. Leonard is not the guy who your going to run the offense through. Leonard needs to feed off others, he is not a guy who can do the feeding.

KingPosey
06-23-2013, 06:05 PM
Paul George for sure, I relieve he is better now, is a physical freak, and of those two, his ceiling is becoming THE GUY on a team. I like K Len, but I just don't see him having that same potential.

MTar786
06-23-2013, 08:12 PM
george is slightly better now.. but i wouldnt be surprised if kawi ended up better. i love both. give me leonards defense over georges though

IndiansFan337
06-23-2013, 08:47 PM
George. Leonard has excelled due to the teammates he has around him diverting much defensive attention away from him. George does not have that luxury for Indiana.

Leonard is a very good role player, but I would take George over him.

OceanSpray
06-23-2013, 09:00 PM
All I gotta say is Kenneth Faried. This dude is straight out a beast.

Swashcuff
06-23-2013, 09:04 PM
Paul George, better player IMO with a tad bit more upside.

King_melo
06-23-2013, 09:58 PM
Well i gotta say both are great are very similar players as well. Pretty much do it all guys. But I give the slight edge to Kawi. Played better when it counted in the finals. Did a little better guarding James and even going at him at times. And also Kawi is younger I think..soo Kawi for me.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-23-2013, 11:21 PM
hmmm.. I would lean towards PG..

OldStyleCubbies
06-23-2013, 11:27 PM
George.

TheLegend
06-23-2013, 11:39 PM
Jimmy buckets. I think he falls in the same category for this type of question.

I think all three are gonna be perennial studs but I would prob take Leonard and jimmy over Paul George if I'm looking for efficiency, and pg if I'm looking for that guy looking to take the rock and make the difference on the offensive end.

Put down the pipe Dude. Jimmy Butler is nice but isn't close to Paul George, CLEARLY. And he's a lil bit under Leonard as well.

SanAntonioSpurs23
06-23-2013, 11:46 PM
Im happy Leonard is finally getting recognition from other fans. Thats about the only good thing that came out of this years finals. Spurs fans have been saying that Leonard is special and has been progressing at an incredible rate all season.

George is slightly better now though. Leonard has a higher ceiling imo.

OceanSpray
06-23-2013, 11:50 PM
I wanna hear your thoughts on Kenneth Faried. This guy is legit a 4-5th option on the team and dominates the paint. Leonard vs Faried, who you guys got? George is better them both because of his versatility, he reminds me a lot like Iggy but better offensively.

Riodagoat
06-23-2013, 11:54 PM
PG and not even debatable. I can easily see him evolving into a star and capable of possibly carrying a team. Leonard is more like a great role player. He would be a great 2nd or 3rd but not the 1st option.

heyman321
06-24-2013, 12:01 AM
Paul George is overrated. Leonard all day, everyday.

IversonIsKrazy
06-24-2013, 12:02 AM
Its close. I feel PG is more smooth with the dribble, but Leonard has the moves such as that spin-off floater. PG can get trigger happy but he can go on fire just as easily. Leonard has better defense (imo) & a better rebounder. Id say PG is slightly better than Leonard right now, but both got rly high ceilings. Cant go wrong with either.

Swashcuff
06-24-2013, 12:03 AM
I wanna hear your thoughts on Kenneth Faried. This guy is legit a 4-5th option on the team and dominates the paint. Leonard vs Faried, who you guys got? George is better them both because of his versatility, he reminds me a lot like Iggy but better offensively.

Faried is inferior to both players on offense and defense. Really don't get why a hustling PF who is one of the best garbage men in the game is being compared to two perimeter oriented players on both ends of the floor.

Leonard vs Faried I got Leonard. Only thing Faried does better than him honestly is rebound IMO.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 12:13 AM
Faried is inferior to both players on offense and defense. Really don't get why a hustling PF who is one of the best garbage men in the game is being compared to two perimeter oriented players on both ends of the floor.

Leonard vs Faried I got Leonard. Only thing Faried does better than him honestly is rebound IMO.

So hustle doesn't count these days? NBA players should be hustling every play and it's quite astonishing how we praise players for hustling. That is their job. On a side note, Faried is a rebounding monster and plays very much like Leonard on the paint.

kingkenny01
06-24-2013, 12:24 AM
Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Kahwi Leonard in that order all will be good players

b@llhog24
06-24-2013, 12:30 AM
Faried is a nice player and all. But I could think of PFs I would appreciate more on skillset alone. I think he'd be epic as 1st big off the bench though. Sort of like Birdman on sterroids.

Guppyfighter
06-24-2013, 02:34 AM
I think the fact most people chose George over Leonard is an indication of the ignorance in this basketball community.

PacersForLife
06-24-2013, 03:01 AM
I can't believe how many people would choose Leonard over George. I may have homer tendencies toward George, but still... Kawhi is a better rebounder, George is a better scorer and distributor.

Mcdoh
06-24-2013, 04:00 AM
i'll pick PG, leonard is the better rebounder but PG is more exciting to watch

Pacerlive
06-24-2013, 08:01 AM
I think it's hilarious people saying that Leonard did a better job on Lebron... Since when did playing off the best player in the world and daring him to shoot add up to good defense. Lebron played good defense on Lebron in the finals and the only thing Leonard did was stop dribble drive penetration.

kdspurman
06-24-2013, 08:46 AM
I think it's hilarious people saying that Leonard did a better job on Lebron... Since when did playing off the best player in the world and daring him to shoot add up to good defense. Lebron played good defense on Lebron in the finals and the only thing Leonard did was stop dribble drive penetration.

When you consider Lebron's biggest strength is getting into the paint and finishing/passing, I'd say that's probably pretty important.

Swashcuff
06-24-2013, 10:59 AM
So hustle doesn't count these days? NBA players should be hustling every play and it's quite astonishing how we praise players for hustling. That is their job. On a side note, Faried is a rebounding monster and plays very much like Leonard on the paint.

Being a hustler doesn't make you a better player, it makes you a player with a great motor, hustle and willing to do whatever he can to help the team win. Thing is Leonard can do all what Faried does and in most facets he does them better, he's a better offensive player, a better defensive player and it doesn't hurt that he has a great head on his shoulders.

I never said being a great hustler wasn't a good thing but be honest you can't mix up hustle with ability/production. Faried hasn't proven that he's better than Kawhi or George in those areas.

Swashcuff
06-24-2013, 11:04 AM
When you consider Lebron's biggest strength is getting into the paint and finishing/passing, I'd say that's probably pretty important.

Pretty important? That's MOST important. Bron's face when Kawhi came back into game 5 I believe it was says all you need to know.

George did a great job on Bron but made more than a few mistakes (showing his inexperience on that end of the floor) I believe Kawhi made less. Overall I do believe George is the better defender but from watching all 14 of those games I can honestly say that IMO Kawhi did a better job on Bron than PG did, and anyone who's ever seen a PG thread knows how big I am on him.

kdspurman
06-24-2013, 03:17 PM
Pretty important? That's MOST important. Bron's face when Kawhi came back into game 5 I believe it was says all you need to know.

George did a great job on Bron but made more than a few mistakes (showing his inexperience on that end of the floor) I believe Kawhi made less. Overall I do believe George is the better defender but from watching all 14 of those games I can honestly say that IMO Kawhi did a better job on Bron than PG did, and anyone who's ever seen a PG thread knows how big I am on him.

Oh yea, definitely. it was written with a hint of sarcasm ;) lol...

I agree with everything you just said. Both are really good players that will only get better.

jerellh528
06-24-2013, 03:23 PM
Rather have leonard, he showed up pretty big in the finals, george kinda faded out later. Also leonard is a third/fourth option so his numbers would be much better in an increased role ala james harden and leonard is from Riverside so that pretty much ices it.

mjt20mik
06-24-2013, 04:01 PM
Rather have leonard, he showed up pretty big in the finals, george kinda faded out later. Also leonard is a third/fourth option so his numbers would be much better in an increased role ala james harden and leonard is from Riverside so that pretty much ices it.

Really?

People forget that Miami's gameplan revolved around stopping George and Hibbert. In which case it became very hard for PG to do what he does. This was his first year in this role, and I still think he did a pretty amazing job. I love Kawhi, don't get me wrong, it's just he's the 4th option on the Spurs. I'm sure Miami didn't put as much effort as to stopping him in the gameplan, as they did with PG.

In which case, I would take PG over Leonard. Better offensive player, can create his own shot and set up teammates. Defense wise, I would say they are most then less equal, but I think Kawhi might have a little edge.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 04:32 PM
Being a hustler doesn't make you a better player, it makes you a player with a great motor, hustle and willing to do whatever he can to help the team win. Thing is Leonard can do all what Faried does and in most facets he does them better, he's a better offensive player, a better defensive player and it doesn't hurt that he has a great head on his shoulders.

I never said being a great hustler wasn't a good thing but be honest you can't mix up hustle with ability/production. Faried hasn't proven that he's better than Kawhi or George in those areas.

A player who hustles like Rodman will have a huge impact. You don't know basketball, sorry I even bothered to discuss with you. Hustle has a lot to do with it. Who's fault is it if Faried hustling leads to him providing better numbers for his team?

2-ONE-5
06-24-2013, 05:40 PM
at the moment you have to say George bcuz we were able to see him as a feature and produce on a high level but we havent seen Leonard featured yet as the man. Leopnard is every bit as good as PG but i wanna see him be the #1 guy before giving it to him over PG. Should happen fairly soon

Oefarmy2005
06-24-2013, 05:50 PM
George and it's not close.

Guppyfighter
06-24-2013, 06:08 PM
George and it's not close.

Kawhi is higher in WS/48, OWS, TS percentage, and they are exactly the same as rebounders. Paul getting the edge in passing and volume of scoring. No doubt that Kawhi could score 19 though and do it more efficiently.


Kawhi will be better when it's all said and done.

Hawkeye15
06-24-2013, 06:16 PM
depends on what the team is, but George for me if forced to make a decision.

Mell413
06-24-2013, 06:19 PM
George for me. I think he can be a legit #2 guy on a championship team. Leonard doesn't strike me as that kind of player right now. He did drive by Lebron a few times so maybe there's another gear there. I need to see more from him before I put him ahead of George.

Bishnoff
06-24-2013, 06:29 PM
Depends on the other 4 starters, but more likely I'd go with George.

D-Leethal
06-24-2013, 06:54 PM
A player who hustles like Rodman will have a huge impact. You don't know basketball, sorry I even bothered to discuss with you. Hustle has a lot to do with it. Who's fault is it if Faried hustling leads to him providing better numbers for his team?

Because hustle guys will always get exposed for their lack of triple threat ability and fundamental skills when defenses lock in the half court. Faried will always be a very, very good player, probably the best hustle guy in the league, but he will always have a limited ceiling as a basketball player and doesn't have many fundamental skills. Very valuable to teams that already have a ton of triple threats but he is not a guy you can run plays for or feature and his abilities are limited.

Joshtd1
06-24-2013, 07:02 PM
Basically boils down to do you want the guy who (now) has the better offensive skills (pure scoring/passing) and good D or the guy that has better defense/rebounding, and good efficient offense, while both have room to grow. Probably can't go wrong with either one, but as a Spurs fan I know who I'm taking since I have seen more of him.

Guppyfighter
06-24-2013, 07:02 PM
Because hustle guys will always get exposed for their lack of triple threat ability and fundamental skills when defenses lock in the half court. Faried will always be a very, very good player, probably the best hustle guy in the league, but he will always have a limited ceiling as a basketball player and doesn't have many fundamental skills. Very valuable to teams that already have a ton of triple threats but he is not a guy you can run plays for or feature and his abilities are limited.

He can develop low post defense and offense. He has the physical tools.

Joshtd1
06-24-2013, 07:02 PM
Imagine if Indy doesn't make that trade and has George and KL as their wings of the future...wow. I know they had a PG need, but still scary to think

D-Leethal
06-24-2013, 07:07 PM
He can develop low post defense and offense. He has the physical tools.

I think he can develop into a great post defender and will be a terrific overall defender. I don't think he will develop into a legitimate scoring option in the post or ever be a guy you can run the offense through for stretches in any way shape or form. He's gonna be a garbage buckets guy the rest of his career, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Guppyfighter
06-24-2013, 07:12 PM
I think he can develop into a great post defender and will be a terrific overall defender. I don't think he will develop into a legitimate scoring option in the post or ever be a guy you can run the offense through for stretches in any way shape or form. He's gonna be a garbage buckets guy the rest of his career, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You are not wrong. Nothing wrong with being a clean up man on the offensive end.

SteveNash
06-24-2013, 07:51 PM
Kawhi and it's not even close. Better all around player no question, doesn't completely choke/disappear like George does, and his contract will probably being half of what George gets.

MrfadeawayJB
06-24-2013, 08:21 PM
George by a hair, but I do think Leonard grew a lot in the playoffs

Lake_Show2416
06-24-2013, 08:31 PM
i like them both but ill take Paul George, he has more super star potential imo & is better right now

Jtirado16
06-24-2013, 08:34 PM
Paul George for me.

But you can't go wrong with either of them. Paul's offense game is better. Reason for picking him

mania03
06-24-2013, 09:05 PM
Tough one but I think Paul George is a potential super star caliber in this league. Kwai reminds me of Loul Deng, he 's at most All-Star level. Kwai lacks an offensive game which PG does much better but at the defensive end Kwai is much better. From what I saw in the playoffs I would take PG.

mrblisterdundee
06-24-2013, 11:20 PM
I wanna hear your thoughts on Kenneth Faried. This guy is legit a 4-5th option on the team and dominates the paint. Leonard vs Faried, who you guys got? George is better them both because of his versatility, he reminds me a lot like Iggy but better offensively.

Paul George, although not as good yet, reminds me of Tracy McGrady when he was athletic. Kawhi Leonard honestly looks as if he could play the Scottie Pippen role. Kenneth Faried is more of a Dennis Rodman, but not nearly as interesting or as good of a rebounder.

PacersForLife
06-25-2013, 12:11 AM
Paul just has more star potential to me. I'm not trying to put down Leonard because he is still gonna be a really good player. Would have been nice to keep him when we drafted him, but oh well.

3iverson3
06-25-2013, 12:14 AM
Leonard.

The guy doesn't even get a play drawn up for him. He is a great defender, rebounder, and he is developing his offensive talent.

Lakers4ItAll
06-25-2013, 12:23 AM
both are pretty equal

mjm07
06-25-2013, 12:51 PM
Really tough call. Huge fan of both players right now. Kwai is mentally more mature, IMO, but both are equally explosive but I just think Paul has the potential to be a superstar. You couldn't go wrong with either.

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 06:29 PM
Kawhi is much better

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=✓&player_ids%5B%5D=504&player_ids%5B%5D=113

WadeKobe
06-25-2013, 06:42 PM
Can you imagine if the Pacers had traded Granger for a draft pick or two instead of Leonard for Hill? They could have used a couple picks to acquire Hill.

They could let West walk, start Hibbert, Leonard, George, and Hill and have buckets of cap space to go after a star FA, while trying to find somewhere to trade a valuable Lance Stephensen. They would beat Miami next year.

MinnesotaFtw
06-25-2013, 07:10 PM
I like Kawhi more. I'd take him. His presence is killer.

Colts2180
06-25-2013, 07:13 PM
It's hard because George is an all-star already and is better than Kawhi at literally everything accept rebounding. But then again Kawhi is much younger and is a ridiculous rebounder.

You do realize that Lenard is like 1 year younger than George and George averaged more boards this year? People I like Lenard and really am torn about the trade we did to give him up for George Hill. Id rather have him PG and Collison still at point but hey thats just me. The people saying Lenard is a better defender hasnt seen to much of George. Hes been called the BEST wing defender at times and a all defensive team member. George is 6"10 SF that is actually our starting SG but played SF because of Granger being out all year. George is a superstar in the making and Lenard is very well on his way too but they arnt even close yet. People are just infatuated with him because of his much easier role on a great team of vets that take ALL pressure off of him. He played well in the finals yes, but PG played well against the Heat too and they was actually focusing on him lol. Sorry bout length but had to get my 2 cents in.

Colts2180
06-25-2013, 07:17 PM
Really tough call. Huge fan of both players right now. Kwai is mentally more mature, IMO, but both are equally explosive but I just think Paul has the potential to be a superstar. You couldn't go wrong with either.

How is he more mentally mature exactly? Missing FAs in a closeout game isnt exactly being more mature and stronger mentally. George has hit FAs like that in these past playoffs. He doesnt fold under pressure like Lenard did.

topdog
06-25-2013, 09:14 PM
No poll? I'm going to assume George would be leading due to the extra year and expanded role he has over Leonard. I liked both coming out of their respective small California schools, but I was more excited about George so I'll stick with him.

Btw, imagine if Indy had kept the pick that was Leonard? The small-ball matchup with Miami would be really interesting to say the least.

GMpunk
06-26-2013, 08:56 AM
Kawhi Leonard if i have a veteran team(cause he is more of a 3rd or 4th option) .... Paul George with a team that needs a 1st or 2nd option

IDOHERBETTER
09-04-2013, 03:30 AM
Just read this. What in the world! How is Leonard a better defender?
That just makes me shake my head, Goerge posted a great defensive rating and had godly defensive win share! It was GAWDLY..

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1748020-ranking-the-best-defensive-small-forwards-in-the-nba/page/12

George was the initial defender on 1,444 plays last scene, which is just frankly, a disturbingly high number. What else needs to be said about his effort? No player in the league was the initial defender on more plays.

He’s not just the “initial defender” either. He’s usually the initial defender on guys like LeBron James or Kobe Bryant, and he’s usually defending them well, staying in front of them and doing pretty amazing things.

His overall points per play is .82, which is only “really good,” but when you factor in that he’s only doing that against the best perimeter player on the other team all the time, that number looks better.

Some of you guys are sounding like Skip bayless out there. Not to mention Paul held all opposing SF's to there lowest per of the season, In 48 Minutes he holds opposing SF's to a Per of 12.

Without the 48 mins!? He holds them to 11.2 with all the data acquired thru out the year.

George is a top 3 defender in the league. Shame to put Kawi in the same breathe as George.

Another nugget, It was Fat Arse Diaw who held Lebron to his lowest outing of that series, Lebron was feasting on Kawi when he had no one to have his back, Lebron would drive at will when that double team wasn't coming.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1675803-how-boris-diaw-shut-down-lebron-james-in-game-5-of-nba-finals

I belive Lebron was somewhere in 35%-25% shooting percentage when being guarded by Diaw.

NOOOOOOBS!!!!


Michael Wallace @WallaceNBA_ESPN

Danny Green is right. Spurs not doing anything magical on LeBron. He's being forced into help defenders or settling for Js, not attacking.

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 04:49 AM
No poll? I'm going to assume George would be leading due to the extra year and expanded role he has over Leonard. I liked both coming out of their respective small California schools, but I was more excited about George so I'll stick with him.

Btw, imagine if Indy had kept the pick that was Leonard? The small-ball matchup with Miami would be really interesting to say the least.

They would decimate Miami.

PurpleLynch
09-04-2013, 06:41 AM
Tough call. I'd take George,mainly because he has more experience than Leonard,but they're on the same level in my opinion.

tmacsc2
09-04-2013, 06:47 AM
I think George has a higher ceiling.

meloman1592
09-04-2013, 08:02 AM
They're both great defenders but George is the superior offensive player

monty77
09-04-2013, 10:04 AM
Both of them are really good players, and have a nice future, but nowadays it's too early to compare them because Paul George is one step ahead of Leonard. Over all because the first one is one year old and has one more experience year in the NBA than the second one.

Looking at the stats is evident that George can show off better rates than Leonard in the most statistical sections: points (17.5 vs 12); rebounds (7.5 vs 6); assists (4.5 vs 1.6). So that if the questions is "who player I would like own in my team to win a match today?" I would answer Paul George without no doubt.

However, comparing sophomore season of Leonard (last year) with sophomore season of George (two years ago), the difference isn't so wide. They virtually share the same rates. In spite of this, anybody knows if Leonard will step foward next year, like George did last season, so Paul George still has this advantage.

Spurs seems the perfect place to develop as player because of Duncan and Ginobili decline as top scorers. No wonder if Leonard is the second scorer just behind Parker next season. He will take more responsabilites in this sense and Popovich is the best available coach to facilitate it.

Besides, both George and Leonard will ear a lot of money when their first contracts expire, so Leonard is preferable to George in this sense because he has played only 2 years in the NBA while George has played already 3, and Pacers will have to pay further money him one year sooner than Spurs with Leonard.

ldawg
09-04-2013, 10:32 AM
George if i am looking to mold a super star player.
Lenard if i am looking for a very solid role player.

IndyRealist
09-04-2013, 12:36 PM
snip.

I wouldn't put too much stock in per game stats, they're really misleading. Paul George played around 60% more minutes than Leonard did. Per minute their stats are much closer (though PG still leads assists by a wide margin).

What tips the scales is that Leonard is significantly more efficient than George is.
Leonard vs George
55.4% vs. 45.7% on 2's
37.4% vs. 36.2% on 3's
55.6% vs. 49.1% on eFG
59.2% vs. 53.1% on TS
1.31 vs. 1.17 on PPS

Paul George gets somewhat of a pass because he's the primary wing scorer while Leonard is the 2nd or 3rd wing option. But those kind of efficiency numbers are absurd, and PGs production just can't overcome the difference in 2pt FG%. Leonard ends up making almost 20% more of his shots inside the arc. Advantage Leonard. And this coming from a lifelong Pacers fan.

D-Leethal
09-04-2013, 12:46 PM
snip.

I wouldn't put too much stock in per game stats, they're really misleading. Paul George played around 60% more minutes than Leonard did. Per minute their stats are much closer (though PG still leads assists by a wide margin).

What tips the scales is that Leonard is significantly more efficient than George is.
Leonard vs George
55.4% vs. 45.7% on 2's
37.4% vs. 36.2% on 3's
55.6% vs. 49.1% on eFG
59.2% vs. 53.1% on TS
1.31 vs. 1.17 on PPS

Paul George gets somewhat of a pass because he's the primary wing scorer while Leonard is the 2nd or 3rd wing option. But those kind of efficiency numbers are absurd, and PGs production just can't overcome the difference in 2pt FG%. Leonard ends up making almost 20% more of his shots inside the arc. Advantage Leonard. And this coming from a lifelong Pacers fan.

Swap Leonard with George respective teams and swap their respective roles and responsibilities and that efficiency gap closes dramatically. PG has to do everything on the perimeter for Indy. Kawai is only asked to do what he is comfortable doing and has the luxury of swinging the ball to HOFers to fill in the gaps. PG has to do what he is comfortable doing AND try fill in the gaps himself while facing the toughest perimeter defender (s) every possessiom.

Efficient scoring is every bit a product of your teammates, your role and responsibilities, and the possession-by-possession attention you draw on defense as it is your ability to put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate.

PG has a higher ceiling and he is more of a triple threat. Its close to a wash on D.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 01:34 PM
No brainer. Kawhi Leonard posted the second highest win shares right behind Lebron James the best player in the planet. http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_advanced.html Paul George isn't even top 5. That guy is way inefficient. I wouldn't have that guy as the number 1 option on my team. Kawhi Leonard help the spurs get their top defense back that was missing like a few years ago. He was 21 throughout the finals and was playing great basketball. Kawhi doesn't take games off(PG). Kawhi Leonard was injured in the regular season and posted low numbers but as his role in the playoffs vs the best teams, he started to dominate. He average a double double throughout the finals as with lots of steals. I don't like using PER but it also shows how garbage inefficient PG is. KL posted higher numbers their too. Also the spurs raped the pacers 2-0 last regular season. Good thing they didn't meet in the playoffs or that would have been a straight sweep for the spurs.

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 02:29 PM
Swap Leonard with George respective teams and swap their respective roles and responsibilities and that efficiency gap closes dramatically. PG has to do everything on the perimeter for Indy. Kawai is only asked to do what he is comfortable doing and has the luxury of swinging the ball to HOFers to fill in the gaps. PG has to do what he is comfortable doing AND try fill in the gaps himself while facing the toughest perimeter defender (s) every possessiom.

Efficient scoring is every bit a product of your teammates, your role and responsibilities, and the possession-by-possession attention you draw on defense as it is your ability to put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate.

PG has a higher ceiling and he is more of a triple threat. Its close to a wash on D.
Then why do players' shooting perfentages not fluctuate a lot when they change teams, teammates, systems, etc?

dalton749
09-04-2013, 02:54 PM
Swap Leonard with George respective teams and swap their respective roles and responsibilities and that efficiency gap closes dramatically. PG has to do everything on the perimeter for Indy. Kawai is only asked to do what he is comfortable doing and has the luxury of swinging the ball to HOFers to fill in the gaps. PG has to do what he is comfortable doing AND try fill in the gaps himself while facing the toughest perimeter defender (s) every possessiom.

Efficient scoring is every bit a product of your teammates, your role and responsibilities, and the possession-by-possession attention you draw on defense as it is your ability to put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate.

PG has a higher ceiling and he is more of a triple threat. Its close to a wash on D.

This

You switch them teams and were not even having this conversation

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:01 PM
kawhi

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:05 PM
kawhi posted the second highest win shares behind lebron james in the playoffs. the spurs beat the pacers 2-0 in the regular season. kawhi's numbers were low in the regular season due to injury. the spurs got their top 3 defense back due to kawhi. this idea that the pacers wouldn't benefit from kawhi is a huge misconception. kawhi leonard is very very efficient. he posted a double double in the finals and didn't take any days off(PG) while guarding lebron.

Pacerlive
09-04-2013, 03:15 PM
kawhi posted the second highest win shares behind lebron james in the playoffs. the spurs beat the pacers 2-0 in the regular season. kawhi's numbers were low in the regular season due to injury. the spurs got their top 3 defense back due to kawhi. this idea that the pacers wouldn't benefit from kawhi is a huge misconception. kawhi leonard is very very efficient. he posted a double double in the finals and didn't take any days off(PG) while guarding lebron.

When I watched Leonard in the playoffs I didn't see a "in your face D" that forced tough shots. What I saw was Leonard playing off of Lebron a lot and letting him take wide open jumpers. Lebron settled a lot but I wouldn't say Leondards D was stellar at all in that series. It was good but it was more predicated on letting him have midrange jays.

b_russ
09-04-2013, 03:25 PM
Paul George. He's like 7 feet now.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:27 PM
When I watched Leonard in the playoffs I didn't see a "in your face D" that forced tough shots. What I saw was Leonard playing off of Lebron a lot and letting him take wide open jumpers. Lebron settled a lot but I wouldn't say Leondards D was stellar at all in that series. It was good but it was more predicated on letting him have midrange jays.

well letting lebron average 30 points a game isn't doing to well for PG. i guess his was worse. When Pop says kawhi will be the face of the franchise in the future. I think he is a great evaluator of talent. He knew what he saw when he moved george hill(a good talent) for KL. some people just don't have a great eye for talent. as a whole, he did better defense than PG for sure. That's undeniable whether you like to believe it or not. kawhi's per and win shares are way higher than PG. i would take this silent assassin any day of year. he also has this cool sense about him that lets him be in control all the time. he is also a gym rat. he has the work ethic. what more do you want from a bonafide player.

IDOHERBETTER
09-04-2013, 03:31 PM
How are there defenses a wash? Good lord.

Defending 1 guy = Great defender?

Kawhi's Deff rating thru out the year. 101

PG had a 97. If we're taking playoffs into consideration then

Hibbo Da Gawd is the best Center in the league.

Blitzbolt
09-04-2013, 03:42 PM
Kahwi is nothing but a scrub is all about the system and the players around him take away Duncan and Pop and he is nothing.

George<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Stephen Jackson<<<Kiwi

Pacerlive
09-04-2013, 03:44 PM
well letting lebron average 30 points a game isn't doing to well for PG. i guess his was worse. When Pop says kawhi will be the face of the franchise in the future. I think he is a great evaluator of talent. He knew what he saw when he moved george hill(a good talent) for KL. some people just don't have a great eye for talent. as a whole, he did better defense than PG for sure. That's undeniable whether you like to believe it or not. kawhi's per and win shares are way higher than PG. i would take this silent assassin any day of year. he also has this cool sense about him that lets him be in control all the time. he is also a gym rat. he has the work ethic. what more do you want from a bonafide player.
A higher USG%.. Leonards win shares are marginally higher in the playoffs this year but over the course of the season PG is 9 vs Leonards 6.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:45 PM
How are there defenses a wash? Good lord.

Defending 1 guy = Great defender?

Kawhi's Deff rating thru out the year. 101

PG had a 97. If we're taking playoffs into consideration then

Hibbo Da Gawd is the best Center in the league.

KL was injured in the "regular" season. no one takes the regular season seriously. take out the outliers like people that played 30 mins or like 2 games and look at the playoff performance. you know, like where the best teams play and not scrub teams. let me repeat it for you since you missed the bit about how PG is highly inefficient(regular stats prove that) and bad win shares(advanced stats) and per.

kdspurman
09-04-2013, 03:45 PM
When I watched Leonard in the playoffs I didn't see a "in your face D" that forced tough shots. What I saw was Leonard playing off of Lebron a lot and letting him take wide open jumpers. Lebron settled a lot but I wouldn't say Leondards D was stellar at all in that series. It was good but it was more predicated on letting him have midrange jays.

In fairness, Kawhi Leonard has great hands and like a 7'3 wingspan. So though he's not that in your face defender like a Bowen or Artest were, he moves his feet well and covers a ton of ground. Just by being in good position and not allowing Lebron to get good position in the post, or let him drive past him is enough to know how good a job he did on him. He also deflects a ton of passes and plays the passing lanes extremely well.

Letting Lebron take jump shots was the game plan. The main concern was not letting Lebron get into the paint and get a lot of easy shots/kick outs cause that's where he and Miami are at their best. For the most part of that series, that plan was successful.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:54 PM
A higher USG%.. Leonards win shares are marginally higher in the playoffs this year but over the course of the season PG is 9 vs Leonards 6.

i think people keep forgetting kawhi leonard was injured in the regular season. he was out for like 15 or more games. and then he was allowed to play at his pace until he was acclimated to nba basketball. to be fair, anyone that comes in when your team has manu tim tony and is led my pop, i'd doubt they'd get a lot of touches. he seems to have gotten more respect from them and we'll see this upcoming season more usage by kawhi. like i said, when the time comes down for crunch time, his there.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 03:55 PM
Kahwi is nothing but a scrub is all about the system and the players around him take away Duncan and Pop and he is nothing.

George<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Stephen Jackson<<<Kiwi

you know you just said kiwi is way better than PG hahahahaahahahahahah you need to edit that.

kdspurman
09-04-2013, 03:58 PM
Kahwi is nothing but a scrub is all about the system and the players around him take away Duncan and Pop and he is nothing.

George<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Stephen Jackson<<<Kiwi

Oh lord.... Back at it huh? :drunk:

Blitzbolt
09-04-2013, 04:18 PM
What's next is Green better then Kobe?They are all scrubs kiwi is not even the best players in his team is all about the system he is nothing but a role player like Shane Battier and that's all George and the others are on another lvl.

Pacerlive
09-04-2013, 04:33 PM
i think people keep forgetting kawhi leonard was injured in the regular season. he was out for like 15 or more games. and then he was allowed to play at his pace until he was acclimated to nba basketball. to be fair, anyone that comes in when your team has manu tim tony and is led my pop, i'd doubt they'd get a lot of touches. he seems to have gotten more respect from them and we'll see this upcoming season more usage by kawhi. like i said, when the time comes down for crunch time, his there. More respect? If he is the future face of the franchise he should already have that respect and he should have a higher usg% than say a run down Manu who didn't even start. I mean Leonard had the lowest usg% of the starting 5 and he was 7th overall.

If he was a great player than any team with a HOF coach would run specific plays for him and that should reflect in his usg%.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 04:36 PM
What's next is Green better then Kobe?They are all scrubs kiwi is not even the best players in his team is all about the system he is nothing but a role player like Shane Battier and that's all George and the others are on another lvl.

i think your just bitter you got swept man. get over it. what does KL not being the best player on the team have to do with anything? PG wouldn't be the best player in the spurs either. he wouldn't be better than tony tim or KL. maybe manu now but he was injured the whole playoffs. no one is arguing danny green is better than kobe. now you're just seeing if anything sticks. i can tell your not rational. you keep talking but you don't have any good reasons.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 04:42 PM
tim 4 rings, tony 3 rings manu 3 rings pop 4 rings. i don't think anyone goes into that team like they're the big hot dog. PG in his second year didn't get any respect either, especially not great players like pop manu tim tony. so are you telling me a player that posted the 7th highest usage rate in a team was second in win shares? he must be a great player then. thanks for proving my point.

Pacerlive
09-04-2013, 05:21 PM
tim 4 rings, tony 3 rings manu 3 rings pop 4 rings. i don't think anyone goes into that team like they're the big hot dog. PG in his second year didn't get any respect either, especially not great players like pop manu tim tony. so are you telling me a player that posted the 7th highest usage rate in a team was second in win shares? he must be a great player then. thanks for proving my point.
Your forgetting Danny Green beat him out on usg% which is sort of pathetic. Like most guys I don't think his usg% will increase without his offenisve efficiency taking a hit.

Paul George is a playmaker while Leonard needs plays made for him. This is reflective in his assist percentage and his usg%. I hope he plays well but he just isnt' a guy I would build around which is what you are suggesting.

IndyRealist
09-04-2013, 05:30 PM
Swap Leonard with George respective teams and swap their respective roles and responsibilities and that efficiency gap closes dramatically. PG has to do everything on the perimeter for Indy. Kawai is only asked to do what he is comfortable doing and has the luxury of swinging the ball to HOFers to fill in the gaps. PG has to do what he is comfortable doing AND try fill in the gaps himself while facing the toughest perimeter defender (s) every possessiom.

Efficient scoring is every bit a product of your teammates, your role and responsibilities, and the possession-by-possession attention you draw on defense as it is your ability to put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate.

PG has a higher ceiling and he is more of a triple threat. Its close to a wash on D.

When Paul George had a more limited role in the offense he still wasn't as efficient as Leonard has been. PG went from 55% TS two years ago (when he was the 5th option on the floor) to 53% last year (as the 1st option). Leonard is simply better, by a wide margin, at making 2pt FGs. If you want to attribute that to system/teammates/coaching there is no quantifiable way of proving it, since both players have played with basically the same teammates and coaches their entire careers. Things like "potential" and "ceiling" are subjective, everyone is going to see them differently. So it's not really a point of comparison when there's no consensus.

SportsFanatic10
09-04-2013, 05:30 PM
after watching them both in the playoffs against the heat, i'd go with PG slightly ahead of leonard right now. but it's very close.

IndyRealist
09-04-2013, 05:39 PM
KL was injured in the "regular" season. no one takes the regular season seriously. take out the outliers like people that played 30 mins or like 2 games and look at the playoff performance. you know, like where the best teams play and not scrub teams. let me repeat it for you since you missed the bit about how PG is highly inefficient(regular stats prove that) and bad win shares(advanced stats) and per.

PG is not highly inefficient, he's simply not as efficient as Leonard. Win shares and PER do not qualify as advanced stats, tyvm. :cool:

rjkgr
09-04-2013, 05:44 PM
paul george but kawhi is good just give him a few years

IndyRealist
09-04-2013, 05:48 PM
More respect? If he is the future face of the franchise he should already have that respect and he should have a higher usg% than say a run down Manu who didn't even start. I mean Leonard had the lowest usg% of the starting 5 and he was 7th overall.

If he was a great player than any team with a HOF coach would run specific plays for him and that should reflect in his usg%.

USG is a horrible measure of the ability of a player. By that reasoning, JR Smith, Michael Beasley, and Ben Gordon are top 20 players. That line of thinking implies that the only thing that matters is taking shots. You don't have to be a team's leading shot taker to be it's best player. Bill Russell, anyone?

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 05:57 PM
PG is not highly inefficient, he's simply not as efficient as Leonard. Win shares and PER do not qualify as advanced stats, tyvm. :cool:

they're not perfect but they show what kind of player you are. sure per is terrible but then we can go by regular stats and leonard is simply better there too.

http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=202331&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame

you can use anything and they still say kawhi is better

Pacerlive
09-04-2013, 06:03 PM
USG is a horrible measure of the ability of a player. By that reasoning, JR Smith, Michael Beasley, and Ben Gordon are top 20 players. That line of thinking implies that the only thing that matters is taking shots. You don't have to be a team's leading shot taker to be it's best player. Bill Russell, anyone?

Well in the context of my post name one future face of the franchise (so says Pop) with a similar usg%.

Some of that I take as coaches speak but fans eat that up and run with it as if its a validation that a player will be a franchise player. I personally don't see it in Leonard but thats just me.

I will put it like this if Leonard is your best player on your team you are going to be in trouble and the best part of this is we may actually see that come to fruition.

SPURSFAN1
09-04-2013, 06:10 PM
coach pop isn't ur typical coach. he doesn't try to hype up players to the media. i've never heard him say that about anyone in the spurs but maybe tony and tim. he said it after the first year and again after the 2nd year. wow that's a dam short list. he doesn't need to sell tickets to get people in the stadium. i'm pretty sure other gm's and coaches do this but not pop. maybe the stats do tell what type of player he sees. maybe he just sees better than most regular people. i'll take his word over many basketball informed people.

b@llhog24
09-04-2013, 07:42 PM
How are there defenses a wash? Good lord.

Defending 1 guy = Great defender?

Kawhi's Deff rating thru out the year. 101

PG had a 97. If we're taking playoffs into consideration then

Hibbo Da Gawd is the best Center in the league.

Not sure if serious.

b@llhog24
09-04-2013, 07:45 PM
Swap Leonard with George respective teams and swap their respective roles and responsibilities and that efficiency gap closes dramatically. PG has to do everything on the perimeter for Indy. Kawai is only asked to do what he is comfortable doing and has the luxury of swinging the ball to HOFers to fill in the gaps. PG has to do what he is comfortable doing AND try fill in the gaps himself while facing the toughest perimeter defender (s) every possessiom.

Efficient scoring is every bit a product of your teammates, your role and responsibilities, and the possession-by-possession attention you draw on defense as it is your ability to put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate.

PG has a higher ceiling and he is more of a triple threat. Its close to a wash on D.

When Paul George had a more limited role in the offense he still wasn't as efficient as Leonard has been. PG went from 55% TS two years ago (when he was the 5th option on the floor) to 53% last year (as the 1st option). Leonard is simply better, by a wide margin, at making 2pt FGs. If you want to attribute that to system/teammates/coaching there is no quantifiable way of proving it, since both players have played with basically the same teammates and coaches their entire careers. Things like "potential" and "ceiling" are subjective, everyone is going to see them differently. So it's not really a point of comparison when there's no consensus.

Was trying to hammer this in someone's head before. Can't remember who.

b@llhog24
09-04-2013, 07:48 PM
More respect? If he is the future face of the franchise he should already have that respect and he should have a higher usg% than say a run down Manu who didn't even start. I mean Leonard had the lowest usg% of the starting 5 and he was 7th overall.

If he was a great player than any team with a HOF coach would run specific plays for him and that should reflect in his usg%.

USG is a horrible measure of the ability of a player. By that reasoning, JR Smith, Michael Beasley, and Ben Gordon are top 20 players. That line of thinking implies that the only thing that matters is taking shots. You don't have to be a team's leading shot taker to be it's best player. Bill Russell, anyone?

Depends. Unless you believe that he'll have a prime Russell's impact on D. Then he'd better make up for it someway if he wants to be considered a "franchise player."

mrblisterdundee
09-04-2013, 08:04 PM
This question's already been asked, and George always comes out on top. Leonard's a better defender, but George is better all around and has had more of a chance to prove his leadership abilities.
They're barely able to enter bars. Let's give them a couple years and check in again.

FlashBolt
09-05-2013, 03:14 AM
I like George better because he has that it factor about him. Leonard needs a bigger role so we haven't really seen much of him other than defend and score here and there. I'd go with George for now but Leonard is like a quiet beast.. wouldnt count him out.

AsfanSince99
09-05-2013, 04:52 AM
It's gotta be George. But I would be curious to see what Leonard can do on an upcoming team where he is one of the primary factors in the offense.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 11:15 AM
Was trying to hammer this in someone's head before. Can't remember who.

Yea but he was still a youngster then, this year should settle this argument.

b@llhog24
09-05-2013, 11:23 AM
Was trying to hammer this in someone's head before. Can't remember who.

Yea but he was still a youngster then, this year should settle this argument.

Agreed. Just saying it gives us a glimpse of how Leonard was able to outperform George at that stage.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 12:27 PM
Agreed. Just saying it gives us a glimpse of how Leonard was able to outperform George at that stage.

NVM

For some reason I thought Kawhi was abit older than PG. Carry on...

This is a big year for both players

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 12:52 PM
I'll just use there perfomances against Lebron James in the playoffs as the test. One thing that stands out is this. When Leonard had to hit his free throws to win the game, he missed one. PG got into a similar situation in which he had to hit 3 free throws and he nailed them. PG at this point is more talented, and s tougher mentally. Kawai may be more efficient, but the Spurs offense is a catalyst to his efficiency. That team is just so disciplined in everything they do. Bad shots just don't occur, and Leonards playing with the smartest players in the NBA. I'd take Paul George no doubt, but Leonard is very good obviously.

KingstonHawke
09-05-2013, 01:20 PM
It took me so long to click on this thread since it's such a dumb debate. George really is better at almost everything. And I put the almost in there just to be safe because I really can't think of an area that Leonard is the better player.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 01:40 PM
I'll just use there perfomances against Lebron James in the playoffs as the test. One thing that stands out is this. When Leonard had to hit his free throws to win the game, he missed one. PG got into a similar situation in which he had to hit 3 free throws and he nailed them. PG at this point is more talented, and s tougher mentally. Kawai may be more efficient, but the Spurs offense is a catalyst to his efficiency. That team is just so disciplined in everything they do. Bad shots just don't occur, and Leonards playing with the smartest players in the NBA. I'd take Paul George no doubt, but Leonard is very good obviously.

You're boiling down your argument to a single free throw? What about when PG spoonfed Bron the game winning layup?

Chronz
09-05-2013, 01:52 PM
It took me so long to click on this thread since it's such a dumb debate. George really is better at almost everything. And I put the almost in there just to be safe because I really can't think of an area that Leonard is the better player.

Your comment reminds me of a debate I had with someone a long time ago, about whether a Stephen Jackson is a better player than Shane Battier. Now I dont know who you consider better, but if you break down a players talent by what hes better at individually, then its not much of a debate. Regardless of how inefficient he is, Jacko has some 1 on 1 ability, hes a better ball handler, playmaker, scorer.... all Battier does is hit corner 3's etc.. and yet, you would be a fool (IMO) if you automatically render the argument settled on that alone. What you can do with the ball is only part of your worth as a player, how you facilitate ball movement without ever touching the ball is the other side.

Now I saw it like this. If Im on a bad team, Jacko will prolly(maybe) do more for it than a specialist like Battier could, but I am more convinced that if I want to field a contending team, a guy like Battier could do more for me than a guy like Jacko, who inefficient qualities tend not to translate into upper echelon offenses (it should go without saying that I also consider Battier the better defender). Given that I value winning, I would give Battier the title of "better player".


How you influence your teams bottom line is what determines your worth as a player, that subjective total can be determined however you like but given the similar rate of production (mostly in favor of Kawhi), its alot closer than you're willing to admit.

SPURSFAN1
09-05-2013, 02:18 PM
It took me so long to click on this thread since it's such a dumb debate. George really is better at almost everything. And I put the almost in there just to be safe because I really can't think of an area that Leonard is the better player.

I guess you just decided to skip through this thread. Let me highlight somethings Kahwi does better than PG.

http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=202331&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame

Kawhi impacts the floor with a way higher offensive rating and a better defensive rating.

What tips the scales is that Leonard is significantly more efficient than George is.
Leonard vs George
55.4% vs. 45.7% on 2's
37.4% vs. 36.2% on 3's
55.6% vs. 49.1% on eFG
59.2% vs. 53.1% on TS
1.31 vs. 1.17 on PPS

Kawhi Leonard is way more efficient than PG.

Kawhi Leonard posted the second highest win shares in the playoffs behind Lebron James the best player in the planet right now.

He also posted a higher PER. I used per for giggles.

Pop called him the future face of the franchise because he knows Kawhi Leonard is a baller. A great coach that never needs to hype up his players.

This was his sophomore season.

Please don't come back at me with any "regular" season stats. And don't give me this bull like he was carrying his team or anything while he also had really good players on his team.

I don't know how you can come up with that conclusion. You must have not looked at anything actually. Just a "feeling".

SPURSFAN1
09-05-2013, 02:26 PM
I'll just use there perfomances against Lebron James in the playoffs as the test. One thing that stands out is this. When Leonard had to hit his free throws to win the game, he missed one. PG got into a similar situation in which he had to hit 3 free throws and he nailed them. PG at this point is more talented, and s tougher mentally. Kawai may be more efficient, but the Spurs offense is a catalyst to his efficiency. That team is just so disciplined in everything they do. Bad shots just don't occur, and Leonards playing with the smartest players in the NBA. I'd take Paul George no doubt, but Leonard is very good obviously.

When the Spurs had Richard Jefferson, they couldn't win jack in the playoffs. He was still playing that spurs system, but I guess it's not so much system as much as the player. We see you're true colors in the playoffs. The spurs were up by 2 points. He missed 1 free throw and all of a sudden he's not clutch. What about PG taking a whole game off in a critical game 7. What about letting LB blow past you for game winners. Lets just forget that all happened. The free throw didn't cost the spurs any games, while PG definitely lost 2 games in the CF for the pacers.

IndyRealist
09-05-2013, 02:59 PM
One thing that non-statheads tend to focus on is single events. One playoff series, one free throw, one game winning shot (or game winning shots in general).

The fact is that these events do not occur with enough frequency to prove ANYTHING, because there's so much randomness for any single instance. If PG and KL each guarded Lebron 40 games a season, you could infer something. But that does not happen in the NBA.

Small sample size is why Bush v. Gore ended up in court.

SPURSFAN1
09-05-2013, 03:19 PM
One thing that non-statheads tend to focus on is single events. One playoff series, one free throw, one game winning shot (or game winning shots in general).

The fact is that these events do not occur with enough frequency to prove ANYTHING, because there's so much randomness for any single instance. If PG and KL each guarded Lebron 40 games a season, you could infer something. But that does not happen in the NBA.

Small sample size is why Bush v. Gore ended up in court.

I never used specific situations until Iknowhoops used his argument as to why PG was better. I used his logic and made some statements.

PurpleLynch
09-05-2013, 06:06 PM
It took me so long to click on this thread since it's such a dumb debate. George really is better at almost everything. And I put the almost in there just to be safe because I really can't think of an area that Leonard is the better player.

Anything to support your statement? Psd's logic as its finest.

smith&wesson
09-05-2013, 06:50 PM
george

KingstonHawke
09-06-2013, 07:01 AM
Your comment reminds me of a debate I had with someone a long time ago, about whether a Stephen Jackson is a better player than Shane Battier. Now I dont know who you consider better, but if you break down a players talent by what hes better at individually, then its not much of a debate. Regardless of how inefficient he is, Jacko has some 1 on 1 ability, hes a better ball handler, playmaker, scorer.... all Battier does is hit corner 3's etc.. and yet, you would be a fool (IMO) if you automatically render the argument settled on that alone. What you can do with the ball is only part of your worth as a player, how you facilitate ball movement without ever touching the ball is the other side.

Now I saw it like this. If Im on a bad team, Jacko will prolly(maybe) do more for it than a specialist like Battier could, but I am more convinced that if I want to field a contending team, a guy like Battier could do more for me than a guy like Jacko, who inefficient qualities tend not to translate into upper echelon offenses (it should go without saying that I also consider Battier the better defender). Given that I value winning, I would give Battier the title of "better player".


How you influence your teams bottom line is what determines your worth as a player, that subjective total can be determined however you like but given the similar rate of production (mostly in favor of Kawhi), its alot closer than you're willing to admit.

I actually think arguing Jackson and Battier is fair. They have different skill sets, and fit different roles. I'd have to look at the specific points in their career since both have arced a bit. But I don't think George and Leonard are even close enough for this to be a valid example. George is simply the better player.

If George doesn't become a flat out superstar I will be surprised. I don't feel that way at all about Leonard. Leonard is a great role player... but there will never be a time where he's getting max deals and carrying a contender.

KingstonHawke
09-06-2013, 07:09 AM
I guess you just decided to skip through this thread. Let me highlight somethings Kahwi does better than PG.

http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=202331&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame

Kawhi impacts the floor with a way higher offensive rating and a better defensive rating.

What tips the scales is that Leonard is significantly more efficient than George is.
Leonard vs George
55.4% vs. 45.7% on 2's
37.4% vs. 36.2% on 3's
55.6% vs. 49.1% on eFG
59.2% vs. 53.1% on TS
1.31 vs. 1.17 on PPS

Kawhi Leonard is way more efficient than PG.

Kawhi Leonard posted the second highest win shares in the playoffs behind Lebron James the best player in the planet right now.

He also posted a higher PER. I used per for giggles.

Pop called him the future face of the franchise because he knows Kawhi Leonard is a baller. A great coach that never needs to hype up his players.

This was his sophomore season.

Please don't come back at me with any "regular" season stats. And don't give me this bull like he was carrying his team or anything while he also had really good players on his team.

I don't know how you can come up with that conclusion. You must have not looked at anything actually. Just a "feeling".

George is a star, and Leonard is a role player. That pretty much throws your efficiency argument out the window. And I'm about 100% sure that even Pop would co-sign trading Leonard for George. So stop putting so much stock into what a coach says about a player. Instead study the decisions clubs make when money is on the line, like the Pacers trading away Leonard as opposed to George.

Also... did you really just (in a sneaky way I noticed) compare Hill, West, and Hibbert to Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan?

KingstonHawke
09-06-2013, 07:22 AM
Anything to support your statement? Psd's logic as its finest.

My fault for thinking that it was obvious...

Taller, faster, stronger... slightly better perimeter defender, way better post defender... better ball handler and creator... better finisher... can effectively play more positions... equal spot up shooter, but way better shooting off of the dribble... more durable... more potential to get better... similar rebounder... etc etc etc.

Stop talking about things that come from roles like efficiency, and someone please tell me something that Leonard actually does better than George? Because, at best, all I see are a few categories that are similar.

Maybe you guys don't get it, but if you're going to compare players, you have to view them as if they were both prospects coming out in the same draft, and you were starting a team. Who would be more valuable? Well, that is who is better. And yes... I'll take the guy who's better at almost everything. But hey, that's just me.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 08:04 AM
My fault for thinking that it was obvious...

Taller, faster, stronger... slightly better perimeter defender, way better post defender... better ball handler and creator... better finisher... can effectively play more positions... equal spot up shooter, but way better shooting off of the dribble... more durable... more potential to get better... similar rebounder... etc etc etc.

Stop talking about things that come from roles like efficiency, and someone please tell me something that Leonard actually does better than George? Because, at best, all I see are a few categories that are similar.

Maybe you guys don't get it, but if you're going to compare players, you have to view them as if they were both prospects coming out in the same draft, and you were starting a team. Who would be more valuable? Well, that is who is better. And yes... I'll take the guy who's better at almost everything. But hey, that's just me.

Kawhi has a 7' 3'' wingspan. He has Shaq hands. When he goes to dunk he always gets hit in the arms but never loses his grip. He defends way better. His impact on the floor is WAY better. He REBOUNDS like a center. He steals better than PG. He's a better spot up shooter. He's can take you of the dribble better and he's the BETTER finisher. He's stronger and weights more than PG(bambi). Kawhi can guard the 1-4. His shooting efficiency is WAY better. Not even in the same class. Yeah sure, he had one more year in the nba, so he had more exposure than KL. I showed you all the stats and you justify yourself by saying he's a "role" player. By that same token, I would say Pop doesn't take a rudy gay 2.0 over Kawhi Leonard. especially now that he believes he's going to get superstar money. lol. Get ready for that team to blow up soon a la OKC. Sorry man, I would take the player that impacts the court the best. That's Kawhi Leonard. Maybe you can't see it, but that's just you. I don't see how PG does almost everything better than KL. That's just madness. No smart basketball fan says that.

PurpleLynch
09-06-2013, 08:04 AM
My fault for thinking that it was obvious...

Taller, faster, stronger... slightly better perimeter defender, way better post defender... better ball handler and creator... better finisher... can effectively play more positions... equal spot up shooter, but way better shooting off of the dribble... more durable... more potential to get better... similar rebounder... etc etc etc.

Stop talking about things that come from roles like efficiency, and someone please tell me something that Leonard actually does better than George? Because, at best, all I see are a few categories that are similar.

Maybe you guys don't get it, but if you're going to compare players, you have to view them as if they were both prospects coming out in the same draft, and you were starting a team. Who would be more valuable? Well, that is who is better. And yes... I'll take the guy who's better at almost everything. But hey, that's just me.


Man this is simply your perception of him.How can you be so sure about that.I also can say that Leonard has a higher bball IQ,that he is more efficient etc etc. And,just for info,I'd take George over Leonard too right now,but that's not the way to show who is better.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 08:30 AM
Game 7 vs Heat Kawhi Leonard 19 and 16 and 1 steal
Game 7 vs Heat Paul George 7 and 7 and 4 assist gets thrown out
I guess he should have used all those talents you said he had right? but he was guarding lebron? so was Kawhi.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 08:33 AM
Man this is simply your perception of him.How can you be so sure about that.I also can say that Leonard has a higher bball IQ,that he is more efficient etc etc. And,just for info,I'd take George over Leonard too right now,but that's not the way to show who is better.

Exactly. When he had those smaller lakers defenders on him, he knew to post up. When he had smaller golden state players on him, he posted up. Same for other guards. KL has a very good BBIQ. Just one example of many.

kdspurman
09-06-2013, 09:26 AM
I actually think arguing Jackson and Battier is fair. They have different skill sets, and fit different roles. I'd have to look at the specific points in their career since both have arced a bit. But I don't think George and Leonard are even close enough for this to be a valid example. George is simply the better player.

If George doesn't become a flat out superstar I will be surprised. I don't feel that way at all about Leonard. Leonard is a great role player... but there will never be a time where he's getting max deals and carrying a contender.

This is based off of what exactly? He's played 1 full season (his rookie season was the lockout). It wasn't until George's 3rd season that he really started to come into his own. Did you think George would be a star after his 1st/2nd year? If Granger doesn't get injured, it's possible we aren't even having this discussion now, it might happen at a later time.

Their numbers from their first 2 years respectively are pretty similar too. So what makes you think Kawhi won't be that kind of guy but you seem certain George will be? Leonard's development might come slower because of who he plays with, but the writing is on the wall and he's in the perfect situation.

I know for sure no one thought Parker would be a guy who carried a team the way he has when he first came into the league. And even then, it took him several years to take on that role cause it was still Duncan's team. Kawhi is probably even ahead of Parker when he came into the league because of everything he does on the defensive end and his rebounding abilities. His offensive game has improved each year. I would say give Leonard another year or 2 before saying what he is or isn't capable of doing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html#per_game::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#per_game::none

Also, it's a very small sample size, but Kawhi has shown glimpses of what he can do as the focal point of the team. He has quietly developed a nice offensive game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20

I would say ball handling is the next task at hand for him, and being used more in P & R situations.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 11:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K8Ug45kv2Y&feature=player_embedded#t=213

just found this video today.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 11:14 AM
This is based off of what exactly? He's played 1 full season (his rookie season was the lockout). It wasn't until George's 3rd season that he really started to come into his own. Did you think George would be a star after his 1st/2nd year? If Granger doesn't get injured, it's possible we aren't even having this discussion now, it might happen at a later time.

Their numbers from their first 2 years respectively are pretty similar too. So what makes you think Kawhi won't be that kind of guy but you seem certain George will be? Leonard's development might come slower because of who he plays with, but the writing is on the wall and he's in the perfect situation.

I know for sure no one thought Parker would be a guy who carried a team the way he has when he first came into the league. And even then, it took him several years to take on that role cause it was still Duncan's team. Kawhi is probably even ahead of Parker when he came into the league because of everything he does on the defensive end and his rebounding abilities. His offensive game has improved each year. I would say give Leonard another year or 2 before saying what he is or isn't capable of doing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html#per_game::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#per_game::none

Also, it's a very small sample size, but Kawhi has shown glimpses of what he can do as the focal point of the team. He has quietly developed a nice offensive game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20

I would say ball handling is the next thing task at hand for him, and being used more in P & R situations.

That's a good video.
Kawhi has a better midrange game than Paul George.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 11:55 AM
How you influence your teams bottom line is what determines your worth as a player, that subjective total can be determined however you like but given the similar rate of production (mostly in favor of Kawhi), its alot closer than you're willing to admit.

The problem I have with the similar rate of production is that you have to extrapolate that for Leonard.

You can't just take the 5th option on the starting unit and compare that to the 1st option on the Pacers. The ability to score is incredibly easier when your not the focus of the defense. Now when that changes and Leonard is the 1st or 2nd option then I will give some validation on his production rate since it will be a more apples to apples comparison but as of right now playing with a future HOFer and a top 5 pg has a lot more to do with the Leonard love fest that is going on in here.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 12:06 PM
The problem I have with the similar rate of production is that you have to extrapolate that for Leonard.

You can't just take the 5th option on the starting unit and compare that to the 1st option on the Pacers. The ability to score is incredibly easier when your not the focus of the defense. Now when that changes and Leonard is the 1st or 2nd option then I will give some validation on his production rate since it will be a more apples to apples comparison but as of right now playing with a future HOFer and a top 5 pg has a lot more to do with the Leonard love fest that is going on in here.

Why worry so much about usage? He's not even the leader of the pacers. He might edge out other players on the team in usage but he's not as consistent. I would probably give that to david west this year or danny granger last year. Tony is going to get his shots, tim is going to get his shots, danny green on fire is going to get his shots, neal in the second unit is going to get his shots. I don't mind KL taking a step back and just straight dominate everything else. He's impact on the floor is shown to you but you keep ignoring it like a bad girlfriend.

IDOHERBETTER
09-06-2013, 12:38 PM
George shot 469 3's.. So of course Kawhi is going to have a better % and he barely does.


George had 603 Rebounds in the regular season and.

George had 141 Rebounds in the post season.

Kawhi had 346 rebounds in the regular season.

Kawhi had 190 Rebounds in the playoffs.


If you add Georges 7.4 rebounding for 7 games in which Kawhi played he would have a total of, 192.8


PG rated as the 4th best SF in 2013.. Come on Y'all.. PG is just far away better. He's much more crucial than Kawhi is at this point.

http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploads/images/1378485308-U11225.png

Big hands aren't also a good thing.
Look at Rondo. Don't even bring up Dunking, George is an animal in that department. Also, George will increase his Pt# as he learns to attack at will setting him up with FTs.


George is the debate as the 3rd best SF in the league over Melo.. While Kawhi will remain a role player.
Hell Granger is even better than Kawhi at this point of their careers. Y'all zipping on that Kool aid too hard.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 12:45 PM
Why worry so much about usage? He's not even the leader of the pacers. He might edge out other players on the team in usage but he's not as consistent. I would probably give that to david west this year or danny granger last year. Tony is going to get his shots, tim is going to get his shots, danny green on fire is going to get his shots, neal in the second unit is going to get his shots. I don't mind KL taking a step back and just straight dominate everything else. He's impact on the floor is shown to you but you keep ignoring it like a bad girlfriend.

Low useage and high efficiency players are rare and are important to a teams success but the more valueable piece to a teams success is a number one option with a all around game that can carry a team. A perfect example to this is the Knicks and Tyson Chandler. He is a rare find when it comes to low usage and high efficiency but he is less valuable to a team than say a Carmelo Anthony.

If the claim is that KL is a franchise player then those guys are high useage players who also get paid the big bucks to be the focus of the offense either by a combination of facilitating, scoring and defense.

Really the unknown is if Leonard can be a guy with atleast 2 out of 3 of those qualities with a high useage for his team. That is what separates a super star from just a average all star. IF you want an example I would say an Iggy from a Kobe or a Chandler to a Melo. Both are important but one is more valueable to a championship team and in the case of the Spurs KL won't get his opportunity until Manu and Duncan retire.

IndyRealist
09-06-2013, 12:50 PM
George shot 469 3's.. So of course Kawhi is going to have a better % and he barely does.


George had 603 Rebounds in the regular season and.

George had 141 Rebounds in the post season.

Kawhi had 346 rebounds in the regular season.

Kawhi had 190 Rebounds in the playoffs.


If you add Georges 7.4 rebounding for 7 games in which Kawhi played he would have a total of, 192.8


PG rated as the 4th best SF in 2013.. Come on Y'all.. PG is just far away better. He's much more crucial than Kawhi is at this point.

http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploads/images/1378485308-U11225.png

Big hands aren't also a good thing.
Look at Rondo. Don't even bring up Dunking, George is an animal in that department. Also, George will increase his Pt# as he learns to attack at will setting him up with FTs.


George is the debate as the 3rd best SF in the league over Melo.. While Kawhi will remain a role player.
Hell Granger is even better than Kawhi at this point of their careers. Y'all zipping on that Kool aid too hard.

Again, per game stats are a horrible measure, and by extension so are raw totals. George played 60% more minutes, man.

kdspurman
09-06-2013, 12:55 PM
Low useage and high efficiency players are rare and are important to a teams success but the more valueable piece to a teams success is a number one option with a all around game that can carry a team. A perfect example to this is the Knicks and Tyson Chandler. He is a rare find when it comes to low usage and high efficiency but he is less valuable to a team than say a Carmelo Anthony.

If the claim is that KL is a franchise player then those guys are high useage players who also get paid the big bucks to be the focus of the offense either by a combination of facilitating, scoring and defense.

Really the unknown is if Leonard can be a guy with atleast 2 out of 3 of those qualities with a high useage for his team. That is what separates a super star from just a average all star. IF you want an example I would say an Iggy from a Kobe or a Chandler to a Melo. Both are important but one is more valueable to a championship team and in the case of the Spurs KL won't get his opportunity until Manu and Duncan retire.

I think you'll see that's not true next season... He'll likely have more plays ran for him, and frankly is already the teams 3rd best player/option after last year, and that's without him getting stuff called for him. Like I said earlier, George was forced into this situation with Granger getting injured, and thus it accelerated the growth process for him. He still has a 1 year advantage on Kawhi, but like I also said earlier, if you look at their numbers for their 1st and 2nd seasons, they're very similar.

So, let's see what kind of increased role Leonard has this upcoming season. Again, it likely won't be as big as George's cause he was playing the hand he was dealt stepping in for Granger. Kawhi has shown (small sample size) he can be the focal point of the offense, and his defense/rebounding are certainly there already.

Next season, I would look for his ball handling and facilitating to improve. He's well on his way, and I don't doubt the Spurs FO vision of him being the face of the franchise one bit. If you watched him from his rookie season to the performance in the finals, you can see just how much he has already improved.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 01:05 PM
Again, per game stats are a horrible measure, and by extension so are raw totals. George played 60% more minutes, man.

Don't bother replying to that guy. Kawhi missed 20 games and then still didn't go hard in the regular season when they don't need him to do anything actually. He keeps missing that point. I don't know how he tries to compare regular season totals to a guy that missed 20 games.

@idoherbetter That's just picking straws. Any way to "try" to prove a point.

Why don't you look at advance stats. Kawhi's impact on the floor is 4 times greater than Paul George. How hard is it for people to understand that? How hard is it to see that Kawhi had monster win shares compared to Paul George. I guess win shares is dumb now because it proves you wrong. Just let it go man.

IndyRealist
09-06-2013, 01:09 PM
The problem I have with the similar rate of production is that you have to extrapolate that for Leonard.

You can't just take the 5th option on the starting unit and compare that to the 1st option on the Pacers. The ability to score is incredibly easier when your not the focus of the defense. Now when that changes and Leonard is the 1st or 2nd option then I will give some validation on his production rate since it will be a more apples to apples comparison but as of right now playing with a future HOFer and a top 5 pg has a lot more to do with the Leonard love fest that is going on in here.

Even when PG was the 5th option on the team he was not substantially more efficient, and still wasn't even close to the efficiency Leonard puts up. Do you really think that if Leonard shoulders more of the scoring load that his 2pt FG% is going to drop 10%? Because that's how much of an advantage he has over PG.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 01:13 PM
Low useage and high efficiency players are rare and are important to a teams success but the more valueable piece to a teams success is a number one option with a all around game that can carry a team. A perfect example to this is the Knicks and Tyson Chandler. He is a rare find when it comes to low usage and high efficiency but he is less valuable to a team than say a Carmelo Anthony.

If the claim is that KL is a franchise player then those guys are high useage players who also get paid the big bucks to be the focus of the offense either by a combination of facilitating, scoring and defense.

Really the unknown is if Leonard can be a guy with atleast 2 out of 3 of those qualities with a high useage for his team. That is what separates a super star from just a average all star. IF you want an example I would say an Iggy from a Kobe or a Chandler to a Melo. Both are important but one is more valueable to a championship team and in the case of the Spurs KL won't get his opportunity until Manu and Duncan retire.

Are you trying to say PG is a superstar? because i don't see it. I'm not saying Kawhi Leonard is a superstar so i fail to see what you're trying to prove. I'm saying look at the advance measures and look at the impact he has on a game. Kawhi can take over if the big three aren't there. He did it vs the bulls and his teammates had like a 20mil salary combined. I'm sure when manu and tim retire he also gets to play with some star free agents. Some players also get paid big bucks to attract fans to the games(jordan in the wizards).

Goose17
09-06-2013, 01:19 PM
Right now George.

But if I was building a team for the future it would be Leonard, simply because I prefer the way he plays and the way he conducts himself both on and off the court as well.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 01:22 PM
Even when PG was the 5th option on the team he was not substantially more efficient, and still wasn't even close to the efficiency Leonard puts up. Do you really think that if Leonard shoulders more of the scoring load that his 2pt FG% is going to drop 10%? Because that's how much of an advantage he has over PG.

I probably believe that if he gets a bigger role his FG% drops like 3 percent, but his ability to get fouled and shoot free throws increases his true shooting percentage. I wouldn't believe his FG% drops 10 percent. That's just madness. Anyone who thinks that is straight dumb.

monzternipz12
09-06-2013, 01:30 PM
If we're talking about nba 2k then I'll take George. But real life, there's something so raw about leonard that I couldn't pass up. Seems like George is nearing his peak whereas Leonard is just scratching the surface and yet still producing similar numbers. Just my opinion though.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Even when PG was the 5th option on the team he was not substantially more efficient, and still wasn't even close to the efficiency Leonard puts up. Do you really think that if Leonard shoulders more of the scoring load that his 2pt FG% is going to drop 10%? Because that's how much of an advantage he has over PG.

I will put it like this, you can't look at in a bubble and not consider multiple variables. The game doesn't work that way and its not even that hard of an argument to prove and yes a 10% drop is not unheard of for instances Boozer took that drop with Rose out from nearly every spot on the floor except at the rim.

When your a highly assisted player you are more influenced by great point guard play and efficient passing all of which the spurs have so I do believe Leonards fg% would take a dramatic drop if he played with Darren Collison for a point guard which PG did in the year your comparing. All of that influences your efficiency and is why I cringe at comparing a important role player to a guy trying to put his team on his back both offensively and defensivley.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 01:58 PM
I will put it like this, you can't look at in a bubble and not consider multiple variables. The game doesn't work that way and its not even that hard of an argument to prove and yes a 10% drop is not unheard of for instances Boozer took that drop with Rose out from nearly every spot on the floor except at the rim.

When your a highly assisted player you are more influenced by great point guard play and efficient passing all of which the spurs have so I do believe Leonards fg% would take a dramatic drop if he played with Darren Collison for a point guard which PG did in the year your comparing. All of that influences your efficiency and is why I cringe at comparing a important role player to a guy trying to put his team on his back both offensively and defensivley.

Kawhi used to play the C or PF in his university. He has a good post game he can go to for easy buckets. His off the dribble penetration from the perimeter is crazy. He has a good spot up 3 pointer if people try to cheat on him. He does it like tons of times with ease. His midrange game is good. You act like he gets assisted in every possession.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 02:07 PM
Kawhi used to play the C or PF in his university. He has a good post game he can go to for easy buckets. His off the dribble penetration from the perimeter is crazy. He has a good spot up 3 pointer if people try to cheat on him. He does it like tons of times with ease. His midrange game is good. You act like he gets assisted in every possession.

Look it isn't a slight on Leonard at all and he has by far the better post game when comparing him to PG. To me there really isn't a question there but the Spurs system greatly enhances his best qualities and covers up his flaws. As I stated before when a guy is the first option covering up those flaws becomes harder since most of those guys need a iso game or atleast the ability to get their own shot or make the correct pass out of a double team. Being the first or second option gives the opposing team more of the ability to make you less efficient and to take away what you are naturally good at. This is why efficency drops with usg% and is why the leap from a low usage player to a high efficient usage player is rare.

Oldmantrash
09-06-2013, 02:09 PM
Easy one, Paul George has the skills of a superstar in the making.
I do love Leonard also, but a guy like George can carry you.
I'm not convinced Leonord will be an allstar yet, lets see how he does if he's the man.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 02:19 PM
IF you want to know KL assisted numbers they are pretty amazing.

He is 97% assisted on his threes.

From 10 to 23 feet he is 56% assisted.

From 3 to 9 feet he is 60% assisted and at the rim he is 55% assisted which to me is really impressive and reflective of his post game.

Looking at Paul George numbers you will see my point.

He is assisted 82% on his threes.

From 16-23 feet he is assisted 30%

From 10 to 15 feet he is assisted 23%

From 3 to 9 feet he is assisted 39% and at the rim he is assisted 53.5%.

The difference is in the system no doubt but also in the point guard play which can't be understated IMO.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Look it isn't a slight on Leonard at all and he has by far the better post game when comparing him to PG. To me there really isn't a question there but the Spurs system greatly enhances his best qualities and covers up his flaws. As I stated before when a guy is the first option covering up those flaws becomes harder since most of those guys need a iso game or atleast the ability to get their own shot or make the correct pass out of a double team. Being the first or second option gives the opposing team more of the ability to make you less efficient and to take away what you are naturally good at. This is why efficency drops with usg% and is why the leap from a low usage player to a high efficient usage player is rare.

Let me just say that Kawhi is a different breed of you're typical player. That's why it's hard to assess what he brings to the table. His impact on the floor is so dominant that he doesn't need usage in the offense to produce his effectiveness. And if you're implying that if he shoots more, his efficiency is going to hurt his bottom line, you're wrong. His impact can only increase. He hasn't even come close to his plateau, it's not even funny.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 02:28 PM
IF you want to know KL assisted numbers they are pretty amazing.

He is 97% assisted on his threes.

From 10 to 23 feet he is 56% assisted.

From 3 to 9 feet he is 60% assisted and at the rim he is 55% assisted which to me is really impressive and reflective of his post game.

Looking at Paul George numbers you will see my point.

He is assisted 82% on his threes.

From 16-23 feet he is assisted 30%

From 10 to 15 feet he is assisted 23%

From 3 to 9 feet he is assisted 39% and at the rim he is assisted 53.5%.

The difference is in the system no doubt but also in the point guard play which can't be understated IMO.

Yeah his 3's pops out but besides that he creates 45 percent of his other shots when pop's system is to pass the ball. That's not telling that he's only capable in a system. Now tell me PG and the link.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 02:33 PM
Yeah his 3's pops out but besides that he creates 45 percent of his other shots when pop's system is to pass the ball. That's not telling that he's only capable in a system. Now tell me PG and the link.

PG is listed in the quote.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 02:47 PM
PG is listed in the quote.

LOL. I'm doing HW and I missed that completely. Long week. Wait you did edit it. So PG creates roughly about 60 percent of his shots if i consider them to be equal in shots and without accounting for threes. 15 percent isn't that big of a difference in shot selection. KL can create his shot 15 percent more and still be hella' effective. That's not even a big margin. That's like 2 more shots in the course of a game for Kawhi.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 03:02 PM
LOL. I'm doing HW and I missed that completely. Long week. Wait you did edit it. So PG creates roughly about 60 percent of his shots if i consider them to be equal in shots and without accounting for threes. 15 percent isn't that big of a difference in shot selection. KL can create his shot 15 percent more and still be hella' effective. That's not even a big margin. That's like 2 more shots in the course of a game for Kawhi.

You would be wrong in doing so. The only shots they are even close to in attempts would be at the rim and from 3-9 feet and really only shots at the rim are they even close to in assisted percent.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 03:06 PM
If you give me the link I can read the information better. Can you post it.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Look, let me repeat this. Just because Kawhi Leonard finishes more than PG from being assisted does not mean Kawhi Leonard can not create his own shot. Do you understand this?

PacersForLife
09-06-2013, 03:32 PM
Kawhi has a 7' 3'' wingspan. He has Shaq hands. When he goes to dunk he always gets hit in the arms but never loses his grip. He defends way better. His impact on the floor is WAY better. He REBOUNDS like a center. He steals better than PG. He's a better spot up shooter. He's can take you of the dribble better and he's the BETTER finisher. He's stronger and weights more than PG(bambi). Kawhi can guard the 1-4. His shooting efficiency is WAY better. Not even in the same class. Yeah sure, he had one more year in the nba, so he had more exposure than KL. I showed you all the stats and you justify yourself by saying he's a "role" player. By that same token, I would say Pop doesn't take a rudy gay 2.0 over Kawhi Leonard. especially now that he believes he's going to get superstar money. lol. Get ready for that team to blow up soon a la OKC. Sorry man, I would take the player that impacts the court the best. That's Kawhi Leonard. Maybe you can't see it, but that's just you. I don't see how PG does almost everything better than KL. That's just madness. No smart basketball fan says that.

Lol, no homerism here. Of course I'm a Pacer fan so I'm going to have a little bias in my opinion. I would have to agree with a lot of the points that KingstonHawke is making, though. I know people are going to use all of these stats and what not, but it's pretty obvious to me that PG is better. He can take over games in ways Kawhi hasn't shown he can do. I don't see how you say Kawhi is better at getting steals, PG is very good at intercepting passes.

I could go into a lot of things about why I think PG is better, but for now I'll leave it at the fact that Kawhi is not even the 2nd best player on his team currently. PG is arguably the best on his team and I would say he just stands out a lot more than Kawhi does. By no means am I saying that I don't think Kawhi is a good player with a lot of potential, but at this point in their careers, PG is better and to me it's not very close. People can come at me with all these stats and stuff, but I go by what I watch.

IDOHERBETTER
09-06-2013, 03:44 PM
Advance stats? Dude. I've showed you them. PG was the best defender allowing a pedestrian Per of 11 to opposing SF's.

What else do you want? Win shares?

Also, The Pacers bolstered the best starting 5 in the league with PG leading the charge. After that scoreless game in GS the team took off.. Kawhi will never reach all star level, He has Luol Deng potential at best but he isn't as Quick as Deng.

Kawhi can't create his own shot and doesn't havea dribble.. I just don't see any star potential in Kawhi.

The SF crop of SF's goes like this!

Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Andrew Wiggins
Jabari Parker
Harrison Barnes
Tobias Harris<-------Already better than Kawhi. Dude is Melo jr.
Jeff Green is debatable. Depending on how he progresses.
Andre Igoudala
Rudy Gay is debatable
A healthy Granger is better than Kawi. By far a better scorer.


Luol Deng is his ceiling IMO. Not great at anything but extremely solid. There is no room for Kawhi in the elite tiers of SF's. Paul George is a special kind of athlete. 6'9 and fast as a gazzel and can lock down his man. I would love to see Kawhi shut down his man and carry the offensive load. I'm not even a pacers fan. I bleed purple and gold, But my gawd, His talents are out of this world. People don't understand the growth of this kid. Last year he was embarrassed by Wade in the Playoffs. Wade made him his female dog and this year the difference was night and day. He was giving it to Wade. Not to mention his momentum game changing dunks and finishing them with contact.

If everything clicks for Paul then we'll all laugh about this. Seriously I am going to bookmark this page.. You are talking about a 23 year old who led his team without at the time there best player in Granger to one game away from the Finals? And we are comparing Kawhi a 4th option to this young phenom? I just don't see it. I am sorry and beg for forgiveness. This is like me trying to compare Ibaka to Blake Griffen. Ibaka is solid but Blake has out of this world potential.

I'll take the kid who has the reigns of a elite team to Kawhi who will have to wait another 2-3 years. San Antonio is all about the pick and pop. I'll bet money with anyone that Kawhi won't be an all star for 4-5 years down the line. While Paul George was voted a top 15 players by his peers just this year.


*Peace!

kdspurman
09-06-2013, 03:56 PM
Advance stats? Dude. I've showed you them. PG was the best defender allowing a pedestrian Per of 11 to opposing SF's.

What else do you want? Win shares?

Also, The Pacers bolstered the best starting 5 in the league with PG leading the charge. After that scoreless game in GS the team took off.. Kawhi will never reach all star level, He has Luol Deng potential at best but he isn't as Quick as Deng.

Kawhi can't create his own shot and doesn't havea dribble.. I just don't see any star potential in Kawhi.

The SF crop of SF's goes like this!

Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Andrew Wiggins
Jabari Parker
Harrison Barnes
Tobias Harris<-------Already better than Kawhi. Dude is Melo jr.
Jeff Green is debatable. Depending on how he progresses.
Andre Igoudala
Rudy Gay is debatable
A healthy Granger is better than Kawi. By far a better scorer.


Luol Deng is his ceiling IMO. Not great at anything but extremely solid. There is no room for Kawhi in the elite tiers of SF's. Paul George is a special kind of athlete. 6'9 and fast as a gazzel and can lock down his man. I would love to see Kawhi shut down his man and carry the offensive load. I'm not even a pacers fan. I bleed purple and gold, But my gawd, His talents are out of this world. People don't understand the growth of this kid. Last year he was embarrassed by Wade in the Playoffs. Wade made him his female dog and this year the difference was night and day. He was giving it to Wade. Not to mention his momentum game changing dunks and finishing them with contact.

If everything clicks for Paul then we'll all laugh about this. Seriously I am going to bookmark this page.. You are talking about a 23 year old who led his team without at the time there best player in Granger to one game away from the Finals? And we are comparing Kawhi a 4th option to this young phenom? I just don't see it. I am sorry and beg for forgiveness. This is like me trying to compare Ibaka to Blake Griffen. Ibaka is solid but Blake has out of this world potential.

I'll take the kid who has the reigns of a elite team to Kawhi who will have to wait another 2-3 years. San Antonio is all about the pick and pop. I'll bet money with anyone that Kawhi won't be an all star for 4-5 years down the line. While Paul George was voted a top 15 players by his peers just this year.


*Peace!

This is all your opinion, not facts. BTW, regarding the bolded:

I'll put it again.... Sample size is small, but he obviously has the abilities that you say he doesn't. My guess is you just don't watch him enough to know that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 03:59 PM
Advance stats? Dude. I've showed you them. PG was the best defender allowing a pedestrian Per of 11 to opposing SF's.

What else do you want? Win shares?

Also, The Pacers bolstered the best starting 5 in the league with PG leading the charge. After that scoreless game in GS the team took off.. Kawhi will never reach all star level, He has Luol Deng potential at best but he isn't as Quick as Deng.

Kawhi can't create his own shot and doesn't havea dribble.. I just don't see any star potential in Kawhi.

The SF crop of SF's goes like this!

Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Paul George
Andrew Wiggins
Jabari Parker
Harrison Barnes
Tobias Harris<-------Already better than Kawhi. Dude is Melo jr.
Jeff Green is debatable. Depending on how he progresses.
Andre Igoudala
Rudy Gay is debatable
A healthy Granger is better than Kawi. By far a better scorer.


Luol Deng is his ceiling IMO. Not great at anything but extremely solid. There is no room for Kawhi in the elite tiers of SF's. Paul George is a special kind of athlete. 6'9 and fast as a gazzel and can lock down his man. I would love to see Kawhi shut down his man and carry the offensive load. I'm not even a pacers fan. I bleed purple and gold, But my gawd, His talents are out of this world. People don't understand the growth of this kid. Last year he was embarrassed by Wade in the Playoffs. Wade made him his female dog and this year the difference was night and day. He was giving it to Wade. Not to mention his momentum game changing dunks and finishing them with contact.

If everything clicks for Paul then we'll all laugh about this. Seriously I am going to bookmark this page.. You are talking about a 23 year old who led his team without at the time there best player in Granger to one game away from the Finals? And we are comparing Kawhi a 4th option to this young phenom? I just don't see it. I am sorry and beg for forgiveness. This is like me trying to compare Ibaka to Blake Griffen. Ibaka is solid but Blake has out of this world potential.

I'll take the kid who has the reigns of a elite team to Kawhi who will have to wait another 2-3 years. San Antonio is all about the pick and pop. I'll bet money with anyone that Kawhi won't be an all star for 4-5 years down the line. While Paul George was voted a top 15 players by his peers just this year.


*Peace!

So you use win shares to prove a point that his "team" is better while KL dominates PG in win shares. lol So what about that? You keep ignoring it and i keep repeating it.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 04:04 PM
Look, let me repeat this. Just because Kawhi Leonard finishes more than PG from being assisted does not mean Kawhi Leonard can not create his own shot. Do you understand this?

On average an assisted shot is a higher percentage shot especially for the spurs. This is why they run their system with Tony Parker and pass the ball extremely well. An example of this is shooting off the dribble vs a spot up shot. The spot up assisted shot is easier since the player can easily square his shoulders to the basket and he doesn't have to create his on space. Tony Parker draws help defenders to him which frees up space for the shooters which why Leonard's numbers are great. It's a luxury that PG doesn't have and most high useage players have to by default take lower percentage shots than the role players like Leonard.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 04:10 PM
What about Richard Jefferson scrubbing it up in the spurs "system"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K8Ug45kv2Y
goosebumps hahahaaha

KnicksorBust
09-06-2013, 04:45 PM
Paul George. Not a debate at the moment. A handful of games dont make a career.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 04:45 PM
The problem I have with the similar rate of production is that you have to extrapolate that for Leonard.
I dont follow you.


You can't just take the 5th option on the starting unit and compare that to the 1st option on the Pacers.
If you're a quitter then you cant.


The ability to score is incredibly easier when your not the focus of the defense.
The ability to put up superficial averages is also alot harder when you're not the primary option.... not seeing your point here.


Now when that changes and Leonard is the 1st or 2nd option then I will give some validation on his production rate since it will be a more apples to apples comparison but as of right now playing with a future HOFer and a top 5 pg has a lot more to do with the Leonard love fest that is going on in here.
Why? We have no proof that either of these players could do what the other is doing if the roles were reversed so I fail to see how either of them deserves more respect than the other. What we DO KNOW, is that Kawhi's style of play has been more conducive to winning, so if anyone deserves the nod its him.

PS. I LOVE PG, he reminds me of my favorite player so spare me the Leonard love talk, this isn't the clear cut comparison you wish it were.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 04:55 PM
I actually think arguing Jackson and Battier is fair. They have different skill sets, and fit different roles. I'd have to look at the specific points in their career since both have arced a bit. But I don't think George and Leonard are even close enough for this to be a valid example. George is simply the better player.
From what we've been able to see thus far, whos better depends on what you need. PG hasn't been very good in his primary role whereas Kawhi has THRIVED as a peripheral threat. If you're on a contender, you're better off maximizing your possessions than wasting them, thats why I give Kawhi the nod, just like I gave Battier the nod ahead of Jacko. Its very possible that PG could flourish in the same role, even tho we already saw him fail to do so when he was playing behind Granger/Hibbs and its also possible that Kawhi struggles immensely as a focal point, thats really the judgement call you have to make, I dont know whos better, Im just trying to say this is a really close comparison thus far. Objectively, Leonard has simply performed like the better player even if PG has more "talent".



If George doesn't become a flat out superstar I will be surprised. I don't feel that way at all about Leonard. Leonard is a great role player... but there will never be a time where he's getting max deals and carrying a contender.
I hope you're right, Im not a Spurs fan and I love PG when hes on his game. Just wish he had the superstar consistency to go with it.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:04 PM
On average an assisted shot is a higher percentage shot especially for the spurs. This is why they run their system with Tony Parker and pass the ball extremely well. An example of this is shooting off the dribble vs a spot up shot. The spot up assisted shot is easier since the player can easily square his shoulders to the basket and he doesn't have to create his on space. Tony Parker draws help defenders to him which frees up space for the shooters which why Leonard's numbers are great. It's a luxury that PG doesn't have and most high useage players have to by default take lower percentage shots than the role players like Leonard.
I remember people saying similar things about Manu or TP when they were barely getting started.

Want to know whats amazing, theres no actual proof to anything you said..... except for his 3pt shooting being reliant on TP. But KL looks to attack more when TP is out.

In fact if you look at the data from the last 2 years, Kawhi's stats are actually MUCH higher when TP ISN'T on the court. Kawhi has lots of untapped potential IMO, he just hasn't gotten to showcase it as much as PG.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 05:39 PM
I dont follow you.


If you're a quitter then you cant.


The ability to put up superficial averages is also alot harder when you're not the primary option.... not seeing your point here.


Why? We have no proof that either of these players could do what the other is doing if the roles were reversed so I fail to see how either of them deserves more respect than the other. What we DO KNOW, is that Kawhi's style of play has been more conducive to winning, so if anyone deserves the nod its him.

PS. I LOVE PG, he reminds me of my favorite player so spare me the Leonard love talk, this isn't the clear cut comparison you wish it were.

So you fail to see that it's harder to be the primary option than the fifth? Seems sort of obvious to me but maybe thats the point. Guys like Bruce Bowen get paid for a role and unless the player fullfills the role than you will you will never know how good he truly is. Right now it's silly to compare the two since one is required to be a role player while another is required to be much more than that. Statistically this is what separates a franchise player from a role player on a championship team.

Who is closer to being more than a role player?

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 05:43 PM
So you fail to see that it's harder to be the primary option than the fifth? Seems sort of obvious to me but maybe thats the point. Guys like Bruce Bowen get paid for a role and unless the player fullfills the role than you will you will never know how good he truly is. Right now it's silly to compare the two since one is required to be a role player while another is required to be much more than that. Statistically this is what separates a franchise player from a role player on a championship team.

Who is closer to being more than a role player?

Woah Woah. Bruce Bowen "was elected eight times to the NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams"
3 rings
His jersey was retired. Bruce Bowen as a role player is better than PG as a whole. People don't have the respect for perimeter lock down D anymore.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 05:48 PM
Woah Woah. Bruce Bowen "was elected eight times to the NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams"
3 rings
His jersey was retired. Bruce Bowen as a role player is better than PG as a whole. People don't have the respect for perimeter lock down D anymore.
Yes but you would never compare his contributions on a championship team to a David Robinson or a Tim Duncan or for that matter a Tony Parker.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Yes but you would never compare his contributions on a championship team to a David Robinson or a Tim Duncan or for that matter a Tony Parker.

PG is never going to be a duncan or a robinson either or tony parker. If I could choose between prime bowen(kobe stopper dirk stopper) or PG right now. Bruce "Lee" Bowen gets the nod.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:01 PM
So you fail to see that it's harder to be the primary option than the fifth? Seems sort of obvious to me but maybe thats the point.
I've already addressed this question, allow me to copy and paste my response:

The ability to put up superficial averages is also alot harder when you're not the primary option.... not seeing your point here.


Guys like Bruce Bowen get paid for a role and unless the player fullfills the role than you will you will never know how good he truly is.
OK?


Right now it's silly to compare the two since one is required to be a role player while another is required to be much more than that.
If thats the case, then its silly to act as if PG is superior just because hes being asked to do more. Its not Kawhi's fault hes playing on a better basketball team and has thrived to a degree that PG hasn't.


Statistically this is what separates a franchise player from a role player on a championship team.
What is?


Who is closer to being more than a role player?
Every player has a role. Kawhi is just better at his easier role, to a degree that we dont know if PG could approximate.

Given that PG hasn't thrived as a superstar, its fair to say hes under qualified for the role bestowed upon him.


Ill take a championship caliber "role player" over a highly flawed "Primary option" (I refuse to call him a star with such middling production.)

bearadonisdna
09-06-2013, 06:10 PM
PG is never going to be a duncan or a robinson either or tony parker. If I could choose between prime bowen(kobe stopper dirk stopper) or PG right now. Bruce "Lee" Bowen gets the nod.

In that case Bowen would get your nod over Leonard as well.

sp1derm00
09-06-2013, 06:12 PM
Neither should be your primary option. Leonard would be a better, more consistent second option and an even better third option.

I would choose Kawhi because he's a more versatile defender and better rebounder. PG is a better playmaker, but neither should be relied on to be a playmaker... preferably.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 06:12 PM
In that case Bowen would get your nod over Leonard as well.

hell yeah i would. I don't think people understand how good bruce bowen was at his role. So good he was all defensive team 8 times in a row or something.

" From 2005 to 2007, he was second in voting for the NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award"

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 06:15 PM
I've already addressed this question, allow me to copy and paste my response:

The ability to put up superficial averages is also alot harder when you're not the primary option.... not seeing your point here.


OK?


If thats the case, then its silly to act as if PG is superior just because hes being asked to do more. Its not Kawhi's fault hes playing on a better basketball team and has thrived to a degree that PG hasn't.


What is?


Every player has a role. Kawhi is just better at his easier role, to a degree that we dont know if PG could approximate.

Given that PG hasn't thrived as a superstar, its fair to say hes under qualified for the role bestowed upon him.


Ill take a championship caliber "role player" over a highly flawed "Primary option" (I refuse to call him a star with such middling production.)

So you don't see a correlation to value and pay? This is a performance based game by the way so an effective role player will always be valued lower than a flawed primary option which I will concede PG is at the moment. To suggest that a role player is more valuable is silly and puts yourself above above all Gms and resources they have. You will never find a GM willing to trade a proven albeit flawed primary option for a role player who are both on a contending team. To suggest something so silly shows me that you can't separate the player from the team and look at it objectively.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:15 PM
Neither should be your primary option. Leonard would be a better, more consistent second option and an even better third option.

I would choose Kawhi because he's a more versatile defender and better rebounder. PG is a better playmaker, but neither should be relied on to be a playmaker... preferably.

Potential tho... who you got? Like say 3 years from now, whos the guy making perennial All-NBA squads?

sp1derm00
09-06-2013, 06:21 PM
Potential tho... who you got? Like say 3 years from now, whos the guy making perennial All-NBA squads?

PG, quite easily. He's not who I would choose between the two if I were making a team though, which is what OP was asking.

I can see PG maxing out at like 24/7/4 while Kawhi might only do 17/9/2. Kawhi is the superior defender and a far more efficient player. He's better at playing off the ball and is a very strong finisher.

PG on the other hand, would be able to create better for himself. I don't think you're winning anything as a team if you're relying on PG creating for himself to score though.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:23 PM
So you don't see a correlation to value and pay? This is a performance based game by the way so an effective role player will always be valued lower than a flawed primary option which I will concede PG is at the moment.
Depends on how smart management is, market value for that specific free agency and a host of other variables.
Whats your point? I mean, Juwan Howard got payed more than Shane Battier ever would, and yet he was never close to him in terms of team impact. Howard just came from an era where advanced analysis wasn't as important and teams valued raw stats like PPG more heavily.



To suggest that a role player is more valuable is silly and puts yourself above above all Gms and resources they have. You will never find a GM willing to trade a proven albeit flawed primary option for a role player who are both on a contending team. To suggest something so silly shows me that you can't separate the player from the team and look at it objectively.
Im not convinced you know how GM's think, I actually think you have it all wrong. A guy like Daryl Morey would most definitely choose the superior performer over the more tantalizing talent. In fact, he already did that when he chose Battier over Rudy Gay. Gay was the more talented athlete, the explosive scorer who wasn't likely to be very efficient. Battier however, was the no-stats all-star who made teams better.

Given how stat conscious the league is getting, we are no longer seeing scoring leaders coincide with big money makers. Things like efficiency and off the ball performance are being tracked and scrutinized more than ever. Guys like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings would be valued much more highly in the days before all this advanced analysis.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 06:24 PM
PG, quite easily. He's not who I would choose between the two if I were making a team though, which is what OP was asking.

I can see PG maxing out at like 24/7/4 while Kawhi might only do 17/9/2. Kawhi is the superior defender and a far more efficient player. He's better at playing off the ball and is a very strong finisher.

PG on the other hand, would be able to create better for himself. I don't think you're winning anything as a team if you're relying on PG creating for himself to score though.

Kobes salivating

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:25 PM
PG, quite easily. He's not who I would choose between the two if I were making a team though, which is what OP was asking.

I can see PG maxing out at like 24/7/4 while Kawhi might only do 17/9/2. Kawhi is the superior defender and a far more efficient player. He's better at playing off the ball and is a very strong finisher.

PG on the other hand, would be able to create better for himself. I don't think you're winning anything as a team if you're relying on PG creating for himself to score though.

I Confused

...

If PG maxes out at that level, how is that not conducive to winning? I agree with what you've said, but if that does happen, I would easily take PG.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 06:26 PM
Potential tho... who you got? Like say 3 years from now, whos the guy making perennial All-NBA squads?

Satown never gets any exposure but we always have 2 reserved spots for the allstar games. Usually been a mix of 2 between manu tim or tony. kawhi gets that nod by coaches 3 out of the next 4 years.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 06:27 PM
I Confused

...

If PG maxes out at that level, how is that not conducive to winning? I agree with what you've said, but if that does happen, I would easily take PG.

Carmelos hasn't won any championships producing better numbers than that.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 06:32 PM
So you don't see a correlation to value and pay? This is a performance based game by the way so an effective role player will always be valued lower than a flawed primary option which I will c+oncede PG is at the moment. To suggest that a role player is more valuable is silly and puts yourself above above all Gms and resources they have. You will never find a GM willing to trade a proven albeit flawed primary option for a role player who are both on a contending team. To suggest something so silly shows me that you can't separate the player from the team and look at it objectively.
Sometimes those players get paid because of what else they bring to the table monetary wise or fanbase wise.

bearadonisdna
09-06-2013, 06:40 PM
Picking PG isnt a slight on Leonard. George is an allstar so its reasonable people pick him.

Guppyfighter
09-06-2013, 06:41 PM
Looking at players salaries to judge them is an awful. Potential gets you more money, see Cousins. Age gets you less money, see Duncan. Some players take pay cuts. See Stephen Curry.


Kawhi is better than Paul.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:48 PM
Picking PG isnt a slight on Leonard. George is an allstar so its reasonable people pick him.

Either pick can be reasonably defended. Its mostly the PG fans that declare him the no brainer I feel

Guppyfighter
09-06-2013, 06:53 PM
Kawhi would do better than Paul George in Paul George's role.

IDOHERBETTER
09-06-2013, 06:55 PM
It shocks me when people call Kawhi the superior defender. Just mind blowing, When i posted stats that It was Fat arse Diaw causing problems for leBRon and not Kawhi. This is like the Bulls fans calling Butler a Lebron stopper eloel. I am terrified to think many of you are 13 year olds and are still rocking the Jordan space jam jersey.. Or think that Kobe is/was a great defender..

Say Kawhi is more of an efficient player? I have no problems. Call him a elite defender or better than George?
That's just crazy talk.

Anyhow I'm saving this page. Watch Kawhi play 32 games and avg 12 pts with 6 rebounds and watch him "play for real and light it up int he post season" with a whopping 16 pts and 10 rebounds.. Eloel.


You spurs fan! Answer me this. Do you think Kawhi is anywhere near George as a defender?
Answer me this and I'll know what we're talking about.

IndyRealist
09-06-2013, 06:58 PM
So you don't see a correlation to value and pay? This is a performance based game by the way so an effective role player will always be valued lower than a flawed primary option which I will concede PG is at the moment. To suggest that a role player is more valuable is silly and puts yourself above above all Gms and resources they have. You will never find a GM willing to trade a proven albeit flawed primary option for a role player who are both on a contending team. To suggest something so silly shows me that you can't separate the player from the team and look at it objectively.

Contributions do not correlate to pay. The primary driver of pay is points per game. Everyone knows that points per game is a horrible way to evaluate a player, yet it still drives every perception of a player (all-star voting, MVP voting, ROY voting, it even affects DPOY voting). It's the reason why NBA teams are so inept at player evaluation.

You're now using Argument-from-Authority, which is a logical fallacy. The fallacy is assuming that people in charge of making decisions are automatically competent solely because someone put them in charge, rather than looking at their incredibly poor track record.

You're also assuming that GMs come to the same conclusions that you do, which is also a fallacy. The Pacers traded 6th man of the year and 20ppg scorer Detlef Schrimpf for "role player" Derrick McKey. That worked out pretty well for the Pacers. So did trading leading scorer Jalen Rose for Ron Artest and Brad Miller (Brawl notwithstanding).

Guppyfighter
09-06-2013, 07:00 PM
It shocks me when people call Kawhi the superior defender. Just mind blowing, When i posted stats that It was Fat arse Diaw causing problems for leBRon and not Kawhi. This is like the Bulls fans calling Butler a Lebron stopper eloel. I am terrified to think many of you are 13 year olds and are still rocking the Jordan space jam jersey.. Or think that Kobe is/was a great defender..

Say Kawhi is more of an efficient player? I have no problems. Call him a elite defender or better than George?
That's just crazy talk.

Anyhow I'm saving this page. Watch Kawhi play 32 games and avg 12 pts with 6 rebounds and watch him "play for real and light it up int he post season" with a whopping 16 pts and 10 rebounds.. Eloel.


You spurs fan! Answer me this. Do you think Kawhi is anywhere near George as a defender?
Answer me this and I'll know what we're talking about.


Paul George Defensive Synergy: .82 points per possession
Kawhi Leonard Defensive Synergy: .82 points per possession

Leonard is better at defending the pick and roll, George is better at defending the post up. Other than that they are nearly equal in everything.

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 07:00 PM
It shocks me when people call Kawhi the superior defender. Just mind blowing, When i posted stats that It was Fat arse Diaw causing problems for leBRon and not Kawhi. This is like the Bulls fans calling Butler a Lebron stopper eloel. I am terrified to think many of you are 13 year olds and are still rocking the Jordan space jam jersey.. Or think that Kobe is/was a great defender..

Say Kawhi is more of an efficient player? I have no problems. Call him a elite defender or better than George?
That's just crazy talk.

Anyhow I'm saving this page. Watch Kawhi play 32 games and avg 12 pts with 6 rebounds and watch him "play for real and light it up int he post season" with a whopping 16 pts and 10 rebounds.. Eloel.


You spurs fan! Answer me this. Do you think Kawhi is anywhere near George as a defender?
Answer me this and I'll know what we're talking about.

again you come in here and talk and you just ignore me again and i keep making you look dumb

here is why kawhi is a better defender
http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=202331&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame

MTar786
09-06-2013, 07:31 PM
It shocks me when people call Kawhi the superior defender. Just mind blowing, When i posted stats that It was Fat arse Diaw causing problems for leBRon and not Kawhi. This is like the Bulls fans calling Butler a Lebron stopper eloel. I am terrified to think many of you are 13 year olds and are still rocking the Jordan space jam jersey.. Or think that Kobe is/was a great defender..

Say Kawhi is more of an efficient player? I have no problems. Call him a elite defender or better than George?
That's just crazy talk.


Anyhow I'm saving this page. Watch Kawhi play 32 games and avg 12 pts with 6 rebounds and watch him "play for real and light it up int he post season" with a whopping 16 pts and 10 rebounds.. Eloel.


You spurs fan! Answer me this. Do you think Kawhi is anywhere near George as a defender?
Answer me this and I'll know what we're talking about.

u make a lot of ******** points.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 07:34 PM
Paul George Defensive Synergy: .82 points per possession
Kawhi Leonard Defensive Synergy: .82 points per possession

Leonard is better at defending the pick and roll, George is better at defending the post up. Other than that they are nearly equal in everything.
Until you look at the number of plays PG defended compared to KL.

IDOHERBETTER
09-06-2013, 07:39 PM
So you believe that Leonard is better? Awww okay.. Okay..

Synergy Sports (subscription required) rated him in the top 20 percent of all defenders last season, which is incredible considering George had to handle the opposing team's best wing on a night-to-night basis. It's also critical to note that George's defensive numbers were consistently excellent in virtually every situation.

Synergy rated him as substantially above average against isolations, pick-and-rolls, post-ups, spot-ups and every other measurable play type in the database.

George is defensive versatility personified.

I also read that he was the best defender defending the PnR but the sample size was like 40-50 IIRC.

Btw, You forgot to mention Paul's regular season's defensive rating. A much huge sample size vs Leonards.
Also, He had to go up against Josh Smith who has 40 lbs on him. Minus those 2 games in ATL he neutralized him.

Had to go up against one of the most versatile animals in the game vs Melo.
Then he had to cover James. Mind you this is all 1-1 none of that helping crap.
Indiana's defense doesn't allow for help.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0505/nba_e_georgechart_gb1_576.jpg

George was the initial defender on 1,444 plays last scene, which is just frankly, a disturbingly high number. What else needs to be said about his effort? No player in the league was the initial defender on more plays.

He’s not just the “initial defender” either. He’s usually the initial defender on guys like LeBron James or Kobe Bryant, and he’s usually defending them well, staying in front of them and doing pretty amazing things.

His overall points per play is .82, which is only “really good,” but when you factor in that he’s only doing that against the best perimeter player on the other team all the time, that number looks better.


And since you love advance stats.. I have some DefxRAPM values,

Kawhi, 1.39

George, 3.06

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Duncan is ridiculous by the way. :)

SPURSFAN1
09-06-2013, 07:39 PM
Until you look at the number of plays PG defended compared to KL.

More people run the pick and roll than post up. Especially for SF's.

Pacerlive
09-06-2013, 07:44 PM
Contributions do not correlate to pay. The primary driver of pay is points per game. Everyone knows that points per game is a horrible way to evaluate a player, yet it still drives every perception of a player (all-star voting, MVP voting, ROY voting, it even affects DPOY voting). It's the reason why NBA teams are so inept at player evaluation.

You're now using Argument-from-Authority, which is a logical fallacy. The fallacy is assuming that people in charge of making decisions are automatically competent solely because someone put them in charge, rather than looking at their incredibly poor track record.

You're also assuming that GMs come to the same conclusions that you do, which is also a fallacy. The Pacers traded 6th man of the year and 20ppg scorer Detlef Schrimpf for "role player" Derrick McKey. That worked out pretty well for the Pacers. So did trading leading scorer Jalen Rose for Ron Artest and Brad Miller (Brawl notwithstanding).
Normally market values for players given multiple bidders show the true value of a player. It's silly to conclude that PG would be at the same value as Leonard. If PG isn't a Max player and KL is then I will gladly eat my words but I see the market value for what it is. PG has proven more overall than KL and the market value will prove it.

This why defensive specialist get paid less than primary scores.

KingstonHawke
09-06-2013, 07:46 PM
A guy who named himself SpursFan is trying to argue that Leonard is better than George, and we're suppose to pretend he's going to be objective?

I was going to reply to some of the responses I got, but it seems that a few posters beat me to the punch. The fact that a few of you guys are comparing a 4th, maybe 5th, scoring option, to a first option player is beyond me. Of course his efficiency is going to be pretty high. He spends most of his time sitting in the corner waiting for any one of his 3 hall of famers to do the heavy lifting lol. Dude creates little of his own offense, and doesn't create any shots for his teammates. And yall keep bringing up things like defense and rebounding, as if George doesn't have better numbers in those categories also.