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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft: London (3) VS Winterfell (6)



PatsSoxKnicks
06-22-2013, 12:27 AM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.
Minneapolis has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.


PG - Dave Bing (30mpg) / Steve Kerr (14mpg) / Petrovic (4mpg)
SG - Sidney Moncrief (35mpg) / Drazen Petrovic (13mpg) / Joe Johnson (0)
SF - LeBron James (40mpg) / Joe Johnson (8) / Bill Bradley (0)
PF - Dennis Rodman (35pg) / Blake Griffin (13mpg)
C - Bob McAdoo (35pg) / Mark Eaton (13mpg) / Theo Ratliff (0)

As always it’s a great time to participate in these games and my first round matchup is against two my favorite posters in the game. Unfortunately as you will see in my writeup, I believe my team is the worst possible matchup in the redraft for them and London deserves to advance to the 2nd round.

PG – Dave Bing vs. Kevin Johnson (guarded by Sidney Moncrief)
With my defensive minded-team I was happy to nab HoFer and 50th Anniversary All-Time team member Dave Bing. He was a 2x all-nba 1st team player (something KJ never accomplished) and was able to lead the league in scoring (something KJ never accomplished) while also ranking in the top 10 in apg in 8 out of 9 seasons. His dual threat as a play-maker will be valuable when LeBron is on the bench and it will help that he is being guarded by a subpar defender in KJ. Meanwhile I’ll be using DPOY Sidney Moncrief to disrupt Winterfell’s backcourt and especially Kevin Johnson. Factoring in the roles and defensive schemes this matchup is closer than meets the eye but I will concede the edge to Winterfell.
Advantage: Winterfell

SG – Sidney Moncrief vs. Paul Arizin
Moncrief is a forgotten great and a true 2-way player. How many players could score over 20ppg, pass, and play lock down defense? That was the calling card for this former defensive player of the year. I believe his speed, athleticism, and skillset give him a clear edge over a 50s star who has no proven ability to play in the modern era.
Advantage: London

SF – LeBron James vs. Julius Erving
Take it Bill Simmons: (On Erving) “Couldn’t shoot a 15 footer, surprisingly subpar defender, too passive offensively, put up his peak numbers in a ramshackle league where nobody play defense, then never approached those numbers after the merger, lost 5 straight playoff series getting outplayed by players like bob gross, bob dandridge, played kenon and wilkes to a draw, never won an NBA ring until Moses saved him.” Ouch. This is (or Bird) are basically the only matchups where Erving is at disadvantage in this game. LeBron is quick enough, strong enough, athletic enough to force Erving to settle for bad shots that he can’t make. Meanwhile LeBron has shown this season that he now has a full arsenal from post moves to perimeter shots.
Advantage: London

PF – Dennis Rodman vs. Charles Barkley
I love the Chuck Wagon but can you think of a defender better equiped to stick him than Dennis Rodman? It’s matchups like this that prove the value of risking an early pick on Rodman. He can cover him all over the floor while matching (possibly exceeding) his rebounding prowess. Barkley is the better player but Rodman can force him into off games. Meanwhile, Barkley’s greatest weakness is his porous defense. That now makes 80% of his lineup as either average, below average, or poor defensively. Is that really a recipe for success in the playoffs?
Advantage: Winterfell

C – Bob McAdoo vs. Tyson Chandler
Finally we’ve come to the center matchup where he is forcing Tyson Chandler to anchor the whole defense while simultaneously guarding a league MVP center who at his prime averaged 35ppg to lead the NBA. McAdoo was not just a volume scorer either as he led the league in TS% at 59%. His ability to stretch the floor as a jump shooter can pull Chandler away from the basket and leave Winterfell extremely vulnerable in the paint to penetration from LeBron/Bing/Moncrief. It’s that weakness that I believe to be the critical difference and provide London with the clear edge in the series.
Advantage: London

Bench – Kerr/Drazen/JoeJohnson/Blake/Eaton vs. Starks/Dumars/Kirilenko/Green/Mgasol
The purpose of my bench is simple. I will distribute the playing time of Kerr/Drazen/Joe to always allow for 1-2 on the floor to produce constant spacing and ball movement. Kerr is #1 All-Time in 3pt percentage and showed how unstoppable he could be from the perimeter playing with MJ. Joe Johnson was able to shoot close to 50% from 3pt during his peak season with Nash. Drazen was #3 All-Time in 3pt percentage while being the #1 option for the Nets and getting very little help. If you surround them with creators like LeBron/Moncrief/Bing then it will allow them to again reach these high levels of effeciency. Blake is there to get out and run in transition and Mark Eaton is a former DPOY who help protect the rim with his NBA Record 5.6 bpg. I believe he has some talent on his bench but I HATE Starks as his backup PG and I don’t see anyone on his bench that would diminish any of the advantages that I’ve gained in the starting lineups.
Advantage: Wash

Overall:
London and Winterfell have both produced quality teams with depth and talent but only one is able to consistently exploit the other teams weaknesses while thriving from their strengths. He has no one to slow down LeBron, Moncrief or even Bing. His ONLY anchor in the paint (Chandler or Gasol) will be forced to cover up for the weaknesses of his 4 questionable defensive players while also trying to guard MVP Bob McAdoo all over the floor. That’s a recipe for disaster. London advances to the 2nd round.



KJ (38) Starks (7) Dr. J (3)
Arizin (20) Dumars (28)
Dr. J (35) Arizin (10) AK47 (3)
Barkley (36) AK47 (12)
Tyson (28) Gasol (16) Barkley (4)

London vs. Wolves of Winterfell.

Making a competitive basketball team in the NBA is like creating a temple or a monument. Not putting a puzzle together but actually architecting a building that will stand out and endure the rigorous trials ahead. There are no perfect pieces that can fit anywhere or hoist your building up over night. You have to start out by filling the foundation and sculpting your pillars and build out around that. Statistics are like a initial blue print. They may set a pretty baseline but they don't account for any variances. Now compare these statistics or blueprints with incomplete or differing baselines and add "What if" to the argument and you essentially have the essence of sculpting a all time team together. Talking about matchups 1 v 1 is outdated and more or less irrelevant. Essentially I think in this game we should talk about the pillars. What is each team being supported by and whose foundation is most likely to cave?

Pillar #1:
Let's start with the best player in this game; a LeBron led team with no player even comparable to his greatness on the roster is clearly going to live or die on how well you believe he can control the series.

Let's first of all adjust the peak statistics KOB has posted which are slightly inaccurate. (29.6 PPG, 6.6 APG, 7.2 RPG) are the peak years KOB has chosen to use for LeBron. Does the slight adjustment in per game numbers mean anything? No. The peak from 05-06 through 07-08 is intriguing to use. To the unsuspecting eye they are the best raw numbers; however In each of those three years LeBron shot a lesser field goal % in the post season. You have to remember this is a LeBron who dominated but had subpar Cavs teams and never could quite get over the hump. The young superstar was enduring endless criticism and was dealing with nothing but frustration to end each of the 3 years KOB has chosen to represent. The 07 collapse in the finals began to raise doubts in the young LeBron. Not only were they swept but the young legend shot an anemic .356 in the finals. While they were clearly outmatched the persona LeBron had and the hype behind him left fans and analysts alike expecting more. The next year the infamous Boston series where LeBron left the court after a game 7 defeat. He again underperformed shooting .353 from the floor and turning the ball over 5 times a game. I'm sure you see a trend developing but for the people still using windows 7 will slow it down and look at one more example. Though it's not in the designated peak years KOB has chosen to use let's look at LeBron's 2011 NBA finals collapse. He turned the ball over 4x a game shot a respectable .478 from the field but was only able to score 17.8 points a game. One of the few times in his career where LeBron could not get enough volume to his game. All 3 teams played good defense, but more importantly all 3 teams had a defensive anchor in the post. Duncan, Tyson, and Kevin Garnett. LeBron has been nothing short of miraculous thus far in his career but he's been blessed to play in a league where true defensive prowess in the post has been rare. At what point in LeBron's career has he been successful against a team with tough interior defense? The 2011 Mavericks capitalized on the Heats inability to be successful from deep and played zone making it tough for LeBron to get inside at will. Despite being massive underdogs and desperate differences in talent the Mavericks succeeded because there pillars were capable of staying true to themselves and not caving when the pressure came down. The Wolves of Winterfell would like to employ similar tactics. Bing, Moncreif, and LeBron all who will play 30+ minutes for London aren't killer outside shooters. LeBron over his designated 3 year peak is a 28% outside shooter. While I'm not trying to say we are an elite defensive team we have pieces to make life tough for LeBron James. Tyson has proven he can impact LeBron's game. Dirk has been criticized numerous times for defense over his career but it was a problem naught spoke of in the 2011 finals. Tyson's immense length and excellent positioning along the key will make it tough for him to penetrate. While he's no Paul George we believe that AK47 or Andrei Kirilenko could be an optimal player to chase LeBron around during the game. He is longer than LeBron and isn't your typical skin and bones European. We feel like the 6'9 athletic Russian weapon will make things difficult on LeBron. When they move LeBron to the 4 and try to run on us we will not be unprepared. When you have a player of LeBron's quality you can never expect to eliminate him; you can hope to infuriate him. I think that by forcing LeBron into tough contested jumpers whilst clogging the middle we may be able to rattle the cage of a young LeBron. A LeBron who was unsure of himself and what he was capable of.

Pillar #2

Key of the series is likely in the key. I'd now like to point out that the starting front court for London ways a combined 430 pounds and stands at an average height of 6'8". At this point we are assuming LeBron is struggling to score majorly at a effective rate so no doubt they will want to turn to McAdoo. Why in a long career where his per game numbers were so dominant did he only make all NBA teams twice? His raw numbers are very pretty but I question their consistency when the physical capabilities of Bob McAdoo are pitted against much stronger and larger opponent. Charles Barkley and his 255 pound physical body will spend most of his time on McAdoo. Why ? Because I don't like the 210 pound frame of McAdoo down on the block pushing Charles around. Also this leaves Tyson to hopefully help neutralize some of the rebounding prowess Rodman exhibits. Tyson has been a steadfast rebounder his entire career. And while Rodman's rebounding numbers are freakish he will have to have position every single possession if he hopes to get around the 7'1" long limbed frame Tyson has. No doubt Rodman and Barkley will battle hard on the other end. For what it's worth in heads up meetings Barkley didn't overly struggle against Rodman teams. Barkley put up 24 and 13 a contest with 53% shooting against Rodman in a 36 game sample size. I ask though who is getting the better end of this cluster down low? Barkley has size and muscle on either player. Tyson while not a danger to go off in a series is extremely efficient and doesn't waste opportunities on offense. That cannot be said of the offensively inept Rodman. 7 years in a row of 15+ boards a game and he still can't score in double digits? The chances even if he has a mismatch of him finishing around the basket hurting us is slim. They have this great 6th man in Eaton but when is he going to play? LeBron is going to be limited and there shooting is limited. So are they going to really bring in another big who is essentially useless down low on offense? Playing Rodman and Eaton down low would be the most anemic post pairing possible offensively. No they are going to have live or die with McAdoo on the block fighting an uphill battle against bigger and stronger defenders. Are third big is Marc Gasol and he is coming off a DPOY not due to savage physical play, or highlight reel help defense. He's coming off a DPOY due to footwork and positioning so I don't think that he is someone that's going to get out manoeuvred in the post often by either of the inept offensive players London is offering.

Pillar #3.

Fast paced offense from our offensive trio. KJ - Dr.J - Barkley are going to push that ball hard. While they have good spot on defenders in LeBron and Moncreif it will be tougher for them to stick with their man as assignments get missed and redirected in transition. If Eaton is in he will not have a chance to set up on the block and man the key like they intend to use him. Unlike many transition teams who ruin good fast break possessions with quick jump shots this team is focused on taking the ball inside and getting easy scores and numerous free throw opportunities. We want them tired and frustrated and we want to set a pace that they can't match. With the exception of LeBron who can finish in transition for them? We just have more fire power. Arizin who is our weak point due to his playing era is a 10x all star and dominant scorer in his own right and he will be our 4th option. I just don't think that if we keep the game pace up and fluster LeBron on defense they will be able to keep up with us scoring wise. On the bench the versatile defense of Kirilenko and Dumars matches up nicely with their two best perimeter players in LeBron and Squid. Also when we do slow down and play in a half court set can you think of many all around post players that better compliment Barkley than Marc Gasol? The high low, hig IQ basketball game that Marc plays meshes beautifully with the physical and tenacious offense Barkley brings.

Summary:
LeBron is the best player in this series and we feel we can limit to a point where he won't appear to be the best player in the series. We think our run and attack offense will have success against London's smaller and lighter front court. We think with a flustered LeBron and a lack of shooters will in the end lead to a offensive drought for London once again giving us an edge. At the end of the day London will not be able to adapt to our style of play and despite perhaps being more talented will struggle to match our offensive output.

Ebbs
06-22-2013, 12:42 AM
I'll retort when I'm not hammered. Good luck kob

NYKalltheway
06-22-2013, 05:40 AM
Take it Bill Simmons: (On Erving) “Couldn’t shoot a 15 footer, surprisingly subpar defender, too passive offensively, put up his peak numbers in a ramshackle league where nobody play defense, then never approached those numbers after the merger, lost 5 straight playoff series getting outplayed by players like bob gross, bob dandridge, played kenon and wilkes to a draw, never won an NBA ring until Moses saved him.”

lol Bill Simmons said all that?
When the merger happened, Julius Erving accepted a passive role on offense and made his teammates better. It was tougher to get at the rim than before, hence lower FG%. His jumpshot wasn't bad but when you fly over people you don't need a killer jumper. He was pretty good defensively and you'll find lots of his former Sixers teammates admitting that.

In his first NBA season he led an ABA stacked Sixers team (3/7 main guys) to the NBA Finals and lost in 6 to one of the most fundamentally sound basketball teams. Top seed and lost in ECF the year after, year later lost in 7 in 2nd round (to a team that lost in 7 in the ECF), reached NBA Finals and lost in 6 to the Lakers in Magic's first season, then lost in 7 in the ECF to the Celtics, lost in 6 in the finals the year after and then when Moses came they swept the Lakers in the Finals and they still are a top 5 team of all time.

And you're using Lebron as a counter argument? Come on, you're better than this... ;)

roshan3ai
06-22-2013, 09:16 AM
LeBron has been nothing short of miraculous thus far in his career but he's been blessed to play in a league where true defensive prowess in the post has been rare. At what point in LeBron's career has he been successful against a team with tough interior defense?

See I get the point, but you guys have one of the most porous interior defenses in this game. So is it relevant if LeBron has been successful against a team with tough interior defense when you guys don't have that?


Charles Barkley and his 255 pound physical body will spend most of his time on McAdoo. Why ? Because I don't like the 210 pound frame of McAdoo down on the block pushing Charles around.

I don't like this idea at all to be honest. You had the chance to hide Barkley on Rodman, but instead Barkley is guarding a former MVP and McAdoo no longer has to deal with his size disadvantage at center. He gets to go against a mediocre defender in Barkley. I get that it allows Tyson to troll the paint and play help defense. But just not a fan.


Honestly, I just think Winterfell matches up poorly with London. PK and Ebbs put together a really nice writeup, but I don't buy LeBron being unsure of himself or having a great deal of trouble against an average defender at SF and mediocre interior defense.

I see Rodman creating a crazy amount of extra possessions with Tyson on him if Tyson is continuously playing help defense on penetrators.

And I'm not really worried about their floor spacing because their bench consists of Kerr, JJ and Drazen who are all snipers from deep.

KnicksorBust
06-22-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm annoyed I don't have time to respond fully right now but real quick them putting their worst defender Barkley on Bob McAdoo just makes things that much easier for London to score. Also, I'm obviously using 2013 LeBron who can shoot 3's at 40% and post-up. It's evident that we are now watching him at the peak of his powers. For more information, Rosh's post is spot-on. :)

Ebbs
06-22-2013, 11:46 AM
You guys are missing the point I don't believe the 210 pound Bob to be a threat when he's bodied by a superior physical presence.

Rodman has Tyson on him because I want to limit second chances getting swung back to LeBron

roshan3ai
06-22-2013, 11:58 AM
You guys are missing the point I don't believe the 210 pound Bob to be a threat when he's bodied by a superior physical presence.

Rodman has Tyson on him because I want to limit second chances getting swung back to LeBron

But that argument is garbage. Charles is known as a mediocre defender. That's like saying that putting a 7 footer on Barkley would remove Barkley as a threat because of the 8 inch height difference. Regardless, Charles gives up five inches on McAdoo. Add in that he's just not a great defender, I don't see him limiting a former MVP just because he is big.

If Tyson is playing all that help D, then he'll be out of position to get the board. Rodman is a freak on the boards. I think with the lack of perimeter defense that Tyson will have his hands full and that leaves Rodman chasing offensive boards all day.

Chacarron
06-22-2013, 01:09 PM
It still baffles me how London was ranked this high. Anyway, I like them in this matchup.

Ebbs
06-22-2013, 01:21 PM
I put way to much effort into that write up to get stomped.

If Barkley and or Dr. J were still in the league dominating I feel this would be closer.

ManRam
06-22-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't like the back court pairing for a LeBron-led team at all. I'd play Kerr and Drazen a bit more honestly. I get that you're going for defense, but offensively I think things could be a bit of a struggle at times with the complete lack of shooting that's gonna be on the court the majority of the time.

I do think they'd win this match up, and defense is a big reason why, but I think it's really close. I also don't like Barkley guarding anyone but Rodman. Put him on the weak link offensively which is Rodman.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-22-2013, 05:08 PM
I don't like the back court pairing for a LeBron-led team at all. I'd play Kerr and Drazen a bit more honestly. I get that you're going for defense, but offensively I think things could be a bit of a struggle at times with the complete lack of shooting that's gonna be on the court the majority of the time.

I do think they'd win this match up, and defense is a big reason why, but I think it's really close. I also don't like Barkley guarding anyone but Rodman. Put him on the weak link offensively which is Rodman.

Well Bing has to play 30 minutes per the rules since he's a 60s guy. And I like Moncrief as a player, think he absolutely needs to be in there. Though I agree that the starting lineup doesn't have too much spacing.

Ebbs
06-23-2013, 01:28 PM
NYK voting for me was the kiss of death lol

Chronz
06-23-2013, 06:36 PM
You guys are missing the point I don't believe the 210 pound Bob to be a threat when he's bodied by a superior physical presence.

Rodman has Tyson on him because I want to limit second chances getting swung back to LeBron

Playing weight isnt a stagnant figure. He was 6"10 210 in College, the NBA does a piss poor job of updating that kind of information. You have to read bios, press clippings and FIBA/Olympic stats to get a truer sense of their playing weight.

While Bob was slender, and your point holds some validity, you can clearly tell from some pictures that hes well above his rookie weight.

I do like Tyson guarding Rodman and being able to roam freely but its always best to mix it up abit IMO.


Charles Barkley and his 255 pound physical body will spend most of his time on McAdoo. Why ? Because I don't like the 210 pound frame of McAdoo down on the block pushing Charles around.
He was mostly a jumpshooter tho. Chuck could keep him off the blocks, and for all the **** Chuck is getting for his defense, I dont recall him being a complete liability 1 on 1. I remember him holding his own as an old man vs Tim Duncan but that could have just been a fluke. I honestly dont remember how he did vs Grant, Kemp, Thorpe and the like back in the day.

Still the main reason I like Chuck on Mac is because of Tyson getting to roam off Rodman. Keeping him off the glass is important but its far more important to put pressure on Bron by completely ignoring the side of the court that Rodman is at IMO.

Just depends on what you guys think is more important, limiting Bron and allowing Rodman to grab rebounds or controlling the glass and allowing Bron to play more 1 on 1.

Bob is going to get his against Chuck tho