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JasonJohnHorn
06-21-2013, 01:59 PM
In 2010, the Miami Heat put together three franchise players in the same roster. The expectation was dominance. They have performed well, with three straight trips to the NBA finals and back-to-back championships, but considering how the deck is stacked in their favour, is simply winning really that impressive?


The Spurs took on a short handed Lakers roster and swept them. They also swept the Grizzlies. The Heat though went to 7 games against a team missing All-Star Danny Granger despite the fact that that team won almost 20 fewer games than did the Heat. An aged Celtics team took Miami to 7 games last year. This year the Spurs did the same and frankly, it was close to a miracle that the Heat even won this series given the ending to game 6.

When the Bulls won their first title they lost only 2 games in the playoffs. They didn't have the luxury of having three franchise players on their roster.


Miami set the bar pretty high, and bringing in talent like Ray Allen and Battier raises the bar. Simply winning the championship is an expectation considering the talent on this roster. Anything short seems like an utter failure. But is simply winning enough? Or does the Heat have to dominate?

Considering teams like Indy have pushed Miami to 7 games, a team built around late first-round picks, it seems almost unimpressive that the Heat won in the manner which they did. They get a couple calls their way and a couple of lucky bounces, without which they wouldn't have even been in the finals, let alone won the championship (taking out Hibbert and Duncan in the final plays of those key games allowed the Heat to pull out wins they might not otherwise have gotten).



So what are your thoughts? Is winning enough? Or have the Heat raised the bar so high that they need to dominate to be considered among the best teams ever? I for one, despite recognizing LBJ as the best player in the league easily, am unimpressed with the manner in which they have won and don't think this team could compete with the likes of Bostons Big 3 in 08, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Kobe/Gasol Lakers and certainly not the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls.

koreancabbage
06-21-2013, 02:00 PM
it was enough to win two already.

when essentially the majority of people were against the Heat. they never wanted for Lebron to win one.

nycericanguy
06-21-2013, 02:07 PM
Ehh... I mean they won, let's not take anything away from them.

That being said, they are SUPPOSED to win... LBJ has far and away more talent on his side than anyone else in the league, so it's not exactly impressive. For another team to win they really need to play over their heads, like the 2010 Mav's who had Terry & Marion playing the playoffs of their lives.

I always think of MIA as the 2009 Yankee's... who went out and signed the best 3 FA's in the game... that WS title wasn't really enjoyable because they just bought it, and they were SUPPOSED to win. Whereas the late 90's teams were really enjoyable. I think MIA fans must get a lot of pleasure shutting up the "haters"... because MIA is the most hated title team I've seen since I started watching basketball, but I wonder how enjoyable it really is to actually win when you're supposed to.

diu9leilomo
06-21-2013, 02:08 PM
Winning is the ultimate goal. Spurs pretty much dominated in the playoffs until they play the Heat and it means nothing if they dont win the chip.

Poem33
06-21-2013, 02:08 PM
kobe/gasol lakers would get manhandled by miami.. bro, let me break it down for ya.

Lebron james would destroy Kobe like he always had. Kobe is not a GREAT playoff performer. check his stats, check everything. the dude simply underperforms in the playoffs. Lebron has always outplayed Kobe 9/10 times they play against each other, with kobe usually being frustrated and chucking up shots.

boston big three, no way in hell do they beat Miami.. are you nuts? KG is the only upside to bosh and he wasn't tim duncan. Pierce, james can easily take him out. Ray allen? man, we are talking about Wade.. Wade easily takes him over.

You may not agree with how this team became but you can't deny that it was done to fight against the big three of celtics, the formation of Kobe's gasol/bynum/odom/artest. the point being made, Miami wasn't the first big three, they were just the most known because the amount of stardom james/wade possessed. there was NO way james or wade could've gotten past Boston or Bulls without their own squad. check the nba now, look at how many stars are aligned on the same team.. It's COMMON for these big teams to happen in the modern era because the talent pool is FAR greater than the past. People spit on russ Westbrook and many dont consider him top 20. EXCUSE ME, westbrook not being top 20 putting up 23/5/7 and not top 20? shows you how strong the nba is today.


The heat were exposed because of matchups. against okc, brooklyn, nyk, atlanta, GSW, miami would sweep or at the very most, 4-2 against these teams. the matchips EXPOSED miami. Bulls/pacers/SAS have the ultimate recipe along with MEMPHIS because if you notice, NOAH, Hibbert, and DUncan were the respective best players on their team during those series. That is no coincidence! Miami were a much better team than the playoffs -much. but the matchups just killed them.

Big Zo
06-21-2013, 02:30 PM
3 straight trips to the finals, best record in the league, and a 27 game winning streak when everyone in the league is gunning for them as defending champs. Shaddap with your whining already...

bucketss
06-21-2013, 02:47 PM
Ehh... I mean they won, let's not take anything away from them.

That being said, they are SUPPOSED to win... LBJ has far and away more talent on his side than anyone else in the league, so it's not exactly impressive. For another team to win they really need to play over their heads, like the 2010 Mav's who had Terry & Marion playing the playoffs of their lives.

I always think of MIA as the 2009 Yankee's... who went out and signed the best 3 FA's in the game... that WS title wasn't really enjoyable because they just bought it, and they were SUPPOSED to win. Whereas the late 90's teams were really enjoyable. I think MIA fans must get a lot of pleasure shutting up the "haters"... because MIA is the most hated title team I've seen since I started watching basketball, but I wonder how enjoyable it really is to actually win when you're supposed to.


lol sorry but westbrook, durant, martin, ibaka, i don't see how lebron has far and away more talent than that team. espcially considering wades major decline.

JasonJohnHorn
06-21-2013, 03:00 PM
kobe/gasol lakers would get manhandled by miami.. bro, let me break it down for ya.

Lebron james would destroy Kobe like he always had. Kobe is not a GREAT playoff performer. check his stats, check everything. the dude simply underperforms in the playoffs. Lebron has always outplayed Kobe 9/10 times they play against each other, with kobe usually being frustrated and chucking up shots.

boston big three, no way in hell do they beat Miami.. are you nuts? KG is the only upside to bosh and he wasn't tim duncan. Pierce, james can easily take him out. Ray allen? man, we are talking about Wade.. Wade easily takes him over.

You may not agree with how this team became but you can't deny that it was done to fight against the big three of celtics, the formation of Kobe's gasol/bynum/odom/artest. the point being made, Miami wasn't the first big three, they were just the most known because the amount of stardom james/wade possessed. there was NO way james or wade could've gotten past Boston or Bulls without their own squad. check the nba now, look at how many stars are aligned on the same team.. It's COMMON for these big teams to happen in the modern era because the talent pool is FAR greater than the past. People spit on russ Westbrook and many dont consider him top 20. EXCUSE ME, westbrook not being top 20 putting up 23/5/7 and not top 20? shows you how strong the nba is today.


The heat were exposed because of matchups. against okc, brooklyn, nyk, atlanta, GSW, miami would sweep or at the very most, 4-2 against these teams. the matchips EXPOSED miami. Bulls/pacers/SAS have the ultimate recipe along with MEMPHIS because if you notice, NOAH, Hibbert, and DUncan were the respective best players on their team during those series. That is no coincidence! Miami were a much better team than the playoffs -much. but the matchups just killed them.


Firstly, LAL vs. MIA- LBJ is NOT covering Kobe, Wade is. Gasol and Bynum would eat Bosh and Haslem alive. James wins his position, but MWP slows him down and yeah, as much as Kobe has underachieved in the playoffs, you seem to forget how much LBJ has done the same in the finals.

AS for Boston, you leave off a key match-up: Rondo vs. Chambers. Could MIA beat them? Yeah... in a 7 game series? I doubt very much if they have Indy taking them to game 7 and if LAST year and OLD Boston team took them to game 7, I doubt VERY much the MIA could handle that Boston team in their prime. We are talking about a MIA team that barely beat them last year when they were old and not even considered a threat. It took MIA 7 games to win that series and some serious help from the officials.


If MIA needs 7 games to put away the Pacers this year and the Celtics last year, then no, they couldn't beat LAL 09/10 and BOS 08... they just couldn't. These match-ups might look good on paper, but SAS was a defensive rebound away from beating this MIA team and look at their match-ups. Leonard vs. LBJ? Splitter vs. Bosh? Green vs. Wade? This should have been a sweep.


The point is, MIA is NOT dominating teams that they should be dominating. They are underachieving, but the deck is stacked so much in their favour that it is almost impossible to lose.

Think about context when making the comparison. Was Boston in 08 better than Boston in 2012? YES!!!!!! If Boston in 2012 is a basket away from beating MIA, then how is MIA supposed to beat Boston's 08 roster? Just not possible.

ManRam
06-21-2013, 03:01 PM
I actually think the Spurs were the better team these playoffs. So yeah, I think winning is "enough". At the very least, that's what history will remember.

JasonJohnHorn
06-21-2013, 03:03 PM
3 straight trips to the finals, best record in the league, and a 27 game winning streak when everyone in the league is gunning for them as defending champs. Shaddap with your whining already...

Whining? Where is the whining? I asked a question. You can go on about the 27-game winsteak, but these guys BARELY beat Boston last year and BARELY beat Indy this year and BARELY beat SAS this year. The point is, with friendly officials and a stacked roster, the series shouldn't be going 7 games. MIA won by the sin of their teeth. MY question is, with a team this stacked, is it enough to to win because they ARE NOT DOMINATING in the playoffs. Not like the Bulls did and the Shaq/Kone Lakers did. Answer the question or don't, but don't bemoan there is whining when there isn't.

bathroom_man
06-21-2013, 03:09 PM
The heat are as arrogant as the lakers & celtics. All 3 of these teams takes nights off and can turn the switch just like that. All the game 7s, all 3 of teams dominate from the get go. But can the heat beat the lakers or celtics?. I will go with who has homecourt in game 7

Big Zo
06-21-2013, 03:20 PM
Whining? Where is the whining? I asked a question. You can go on about the 27-game winsteak, but these guys BARELY beat Boston last year and BARELY beat Indy this year and BARELY beat SAS this year. The point is, with friendly officials and a stacked roster, the series shouldn't be going 7 games. MIA won by the sin of their teeth. MY question is, with a team this stacked, is it enough to to win because they ARE NOT DOMINATING in the playoffs. Not like the Bulls did and the Shaq/Kone Lakers did. Answer the question or don't, but don't bemoan there is whining when there isn't.

Is that the Dwyane Wade from 2006 you're seeing out there? Do they have the size advantage over most teams? And what's with the "friendly" officials comment? This series was pretty evenly officiated. In fact, i'm pretty sure the Spurs shot more free throws.

bucketss
06-21-2013, 03:24 PM
Is that the Dwyane Wade from 2006 you're seeing out there? Do they have the size advantage over most teams? And what's with the "friendly" officials comment? This series was pretty evenly officiated. In fact, i'm pretty sure the Spurs shot more free throws.

you said everything i wanted to say Lol, some people on this forum are horrid.

Big Zo
06-21-2013, 03:47 PM
you said everything i wanted to say Lol, some people on this forum are horrid.
They'll do anything to discredit. It's hilarious.

TheIlladelph16
06-21-2013, 03:56 PM
If I have to continue to listen to people tell me Lebron is playing with two other superstars, I'm going to lose my damn mind. Last year? Sure, they would still probably be "superstars" at that point. This postseason especially has been completely different.

I swear people think Lebron is playing next to 2006 Wade, a pre-Miami Bosh and a mid 2000's version of Ray Allen. Instead its Dwayne "Cortisone shot" Wade, Chris "0 pts in game 7" Bosh and Ray "I can't guard my own shadow" Allen.

Delrayhc
06-21-2013, 04:04 PM
I believe it is enough to just win. As far as dominance they might not destroy teams on a nightly basis but making it to the finals 3 seasons in a row is a pretty dominate feat.

Dade County
06-21-2013, 04:07 PM
In 2010, the Miami Heat put together three franchise players in the same roster. The expectation was dominance. They have performed well, with three straight trips to the NBA finals and back-to-back championships, but considering how the deck is stacked in their favour, is simply winning really that impressive?


The Spurs took on a short handed Lakers roster and swept them. They also swept the Grizzlies. The Heat though went to 7 games against a team missing All-Star Danny Granger despite the fact that that team won almost 20 fewer games than did the Heat. An aged Celtics team took Miami to 7 games last year. This year the Spurs did the same and frankly, it was close to a miracle that the Heat even won this series given the ending to game 6.

When the Bulls won their first title they lost only 2 games in the playoffs. They didn't have the luxury of having three franchise players on their roster.


Miami set the bar pretty high, and bringing in talent like Ray Allen and Battier raises the bar. Simply winning the championship is an expectation considering the talent on this roster. Anything short seems like an utter failure. But is simply winning enough? Or does the Heat have to dominate?

Considering teams like Indy have pushed Miami to 7 games, a team built around late first-round picks, it seems almost unimpressive that the Heat won in the manner which they did. They get a couple calls their way and a couple of lucky bounces, without which they wouldn't have even been in the finals, let alone won the championship (taking out Hibbert and Duncan in the final plays of those key games allowed the Heat to pull out wins they might not otherwise have gotten).



So what are your thoughts? Is winning enough? Or have the Heat raised the bar so high that they need to dominate to be considered among the best teams ever? I for one, despite recognizing LBJ as the best player in the league easily, am unimpressed with the manner in which they have won and don't think this team could compete with the likes of Bostons Big 3 in 08, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Kobe/Gasol Lakers and certainly not the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls.

I think you will see the HEAT dominate everyone next season; why? I believe that the league/stern tried to pull one over on Lbj in game 6. To me, Lbj was scripted to take over in the forth of game 6; he was under the impression that the refs was going to call fouls for him ( by his expression at the 2:28mark, left of game 6, when he was looking at the refs, like a scared little boy... And they just turned their backs to him, never making eye contact with Lbj ).

SO I believe he will never do this again ( I can only hope ). He will aim to destroy teams ( Like they are supposed too, OP), and no more giving teams wins; just to further his own legacy and create drama for the league/media.

He almost lost a Finals ( Thanks Ray Ray!!! ), so in short, you should see a real sure HEAT team, next season playoffs... I can only hope that Wade is above 85% when that time comes.

Delrayhc
06-21-2013, 04:10 PM
I will add one more thing. Like i said they dont blow out teams constantly but when no team in the east all with different styles cant make it past them 3 years straight thats dominance.

Dade County
06-21-2013, 04:13 PM
Whining? Where is the whining? I asked a question. You can go on about the 27-game winsteak, but these guys BARELY beat Boston last year and BARELY beat Indy this year and BARELY beat SAS this year. The point is, with friendly officials and a stacked roster, the series shouldn't be going 7 games. MIA won by the sin of their teeth. MY question is, with a team this stacked, is it enough to to win because they ARE NOT DOMINATING in the playoffs. Not like the Bulls did and the Shaq/Kone Lakers did. Answer the question or don't, but don't bemoan there is whining when there isn't.

NBA = Entertainment happened here.

You are absolutely right, the HEAT should not have went 7 games with Boston or the Pacers! This is why, I am only happy for the Miami HEAT organization and my fella HEAT fans. Some of these players are con-artist and the league is corrupt.

natelpete
06-21-2013, 04:27 PM
Jesus, how many of these threads do we need?

ThuglifeJ
06-21-2013, 06:44 PM
I think I have to agree with you. I'm not a Spurs or Heat fan, but I DID like the Spurs team up until game 7 so I was rooting for them, but it's not like I cared a lot who won. After the Heat won I really didn't feel anything but indifference.

It just doesn't feel special when the Heat win.

And yes, it did feel special when Jordan's Bulls won everytime. Trust me the excitement when they would win was through the roof. Even tho their team was so good, it still was amazing to see.
Watching the Heat win that championship wasn't exciting even tho it was a game 7 series. We really just watched the Spurs back off of Lebron and dare him to shoot, then they won. No super exciting plays from the Heat except Ray's big 3.

ManRam
06-21-2013, 06:51 PM
Is that the Dwyane Wade from 2006 you're seeing out there? Do they have the size advantage over most teams? And what's with the "friendly" officials comment? This series was pretty evenly officiated. In fact, i'm pretty sure the Spurs shot more free throws.

JJH seems to think this team is infallible. The reality is that they have a lot of weaknesses and those weaknesses were exposed. They aren't leaps and bounds better than every team in the NBA. I picked them to win in 7 in both the ECF and Finals for a reason: teams match up well against them and can exploit their weaknesses...which are size, rebounding, age and inconsistent shooting.

Tony_Starks
06-21-2013, 07:10 PM
Since I wasn't going for either team I can objectively say a win is a win. Barring serious injury to key players. I don't believe in "lucking up" on championships because even if you got a lucky bounce or bad call you still had to put yourself in that position in the first place....

JasonJohnHorn
06-23-2013, 10:21 AM
Is that the Dwyane Wade from 2006 you're seeing out there? Do they have the size advantage over most teams? And what's with the "friendly" officials comment? This series was pretty evenly officiated. In fact, i'm pretty sure the Spurs shot more free throws.

I love how the majority of Heat fans will argue that Wade is still the best SG in the league and then when the barely win act like he's a scrub to suggest that LBJ doesn't have a great supporting cast.


Just to refresh you here: D-Wade was on the All-NBA team this year! And has been for 5 consecutive seasons. We are talking about a guy who is 31. This is the prime of his career. Jordan was an MVP at 35 years old! Don't act like because he's 31 he's in the twilight of his career. Bosh is even younger and has been an All-Star every year since 06. Not to mention they have a HOF SG coming off the bench.


Look... the Heat BARELY beat Indy and SAS this year. They BARELY beat BOS last year. If they struggle this much against these teams, how would the possibly compete with LAL in 2000-2002 and 209-2010 or Boston in 2008? They simply could not.

Nick O
06-23-2013, 12:22 PM
it doesnt matter how you win. it matters that you win .. besides this series was epic

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 04:40 PM
They are one of the most talented teams in history during this 3 year run but they aren't as dominant as their talent level suggests. They won't be considered one of the greatest teams in history until they have a 2001 Lakers-type run through the playoffs and dominate everyone in sight. I don't think Wade and LeBron compliment eachother well and they aren't prime fits next to each other, but they are THAT good so it doesn't even matter that they aren't prime fits.

Not sure any other NBA champion in history had their top two guns who clearly weren't near-perfect compliments of each other. That speaks to how talented they are, and how good LeBron is, when guys can struggle as bad as they did and win championships anyway. Most title teams have to play grade A basketball to win titles, the Heat can play grade C basketball and still win titles because they are that much better than anyone else.

Chronz
06-23-2013, 04:46 PM
I love how the majority of Heat fans will argue that Wade is still the best SG in the league and then when the barely win act like he's a scrub to suggest that LBJ doesn't have a great supporting cast.
I love when people point to what other people say instead of directly attacking the posters stance. Wade is the best SG when HEALTHY. He WAS NOT HEALTHY in the post season. Thats kind of related to the fact that hes declining and the production hes at is pathetic for a star.



Just to refresh you here: D-Wade was on the All-NBA team this year!
More of a refresher, he made THIRD TEAM ALL-NBA.


And has been for 5 consecutive seasons. We are talking about a guy who is 31. This is the prime of his career. Jordan was an MVP at 35 years old! Don't act like because he's 31 he's in the twilight of his career. Bosh is even younger and has been an All-Star every year since 06. Not to mention they have a HOF SG coming off the bench.

Why did you bring up MJ? Is Wade suppose to follow MJ's career curve? What about the multitude of other players who saw their games decline as they entered the age Wade is at?



Look... the Heat BARELY beat Indy and SAS this year. They BARELY beat BOS last year. If they struggle this much against these teams, how would the possibly compete with LAL in 2000-2002 and 209-2010 or Boston in 2008? They simply could not.

lmfao talk about the double standards you are showing.

The teams you mentioned went the distance in THEIR FIRST ROUND SERIES. Do you even remember the Celtics barely beating the sub .500 Hawks? You can find similar examples for the others as well. Why the glaring inconsistencies in your approach? Oh yea, because you have NOTHING to stand on.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 04:48 PM
it doesnt matter how you win. it matters that you win .. besides this series was epic

This is true, but when discussing the top teams of all time, which the Heat clearly were supposed to be when they were assembled, you need to dominate and not just squeak by. I think if the Heat breeze through to the Finals this year like everyone predicted they were going to all year long, coupled with their 66 wins and 27 game win streak they could have had a season that put them up there with one of the 5-6 best teams of all time.

Method28
06-23-2013, 04:54 PM
Yes winning from a TEAM perspective is enough. That is the ultimate goal. It doesn't matter how you get there.
From an individuals perspective however...winning is not enough. If the Heat won but LBJ played poorly....most nba heads would actually hold that ring against James

Big Zo
06-23-2013, 05:06 PM
I love how the majority of Heat fans will argue that Wade is still the best SG in the league and then when the barely win act like he's a scrub to suggest that LBJ doesn't have a great supporting cast.


Just to refresh you here: D-Wade was on the All-NBA team this year! And has been for 5 consecutive seasons. We are talking about a guy who is 31. This is the prime of his career. Jordan was an MVP at 35 years old! Don't act like because he's 31 he's in the twilight of his career. Bosh is even younger and has been an All-Star every year since 06. Not to mention they have a HOF SG coming off the bench.


Look... the Heat BARELY beat Indy and SAS this year. They BARELY beat BOS last year. If they struggle this much against these teams, how would the possibly compete with LAL in 2000-2002 and 209-2010 or Boston in 2008? They simply could not.

So because people say Wade is no longer the player he was in 2006, that means they're calling him a scrub? Ok. Yes he's still a great player, yes LeBron is surrounded by a great team. That doesn't mean they have to be expected to just coast through every playoff series. Every season, and ever series is different. You mentioned that they had trouble beating Boston last year, but forgot that they took them out in 5 games the year before. In the end, they beat Boston two years in a row, and did the same with the Pacers.

Big Zo
06-23-2013, 05:13 PM
This is true, but when discussing the top teams of all time, which the Heat clearly were supposed to be when they were assembled, you need to dominate and not just squeak by. I think if the Heat breeze through to the Finals this year like everyone predicted they were going to all year long, coupled with their 66 wins and 27 game win streak they could have had a season that put them up there with one of the 5-6 best teams of all time.

How many teams can say they've been to the finals 3 years in a row? Hell, how many teams can say they've won championships in the NBA? There's only been 9 since 1980. And as far as this year goes: 66 regulars season wins + 16 postseason wins= 82 wins, total. 82 is the total of regular season games played, and the Heat won that number of games this year.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 05:22 PM
How many teams can say they've been to the finals 3 years in a row? Hell, how many teams can say they've won championships in the NBA? There's only been 9 since 1980. And as far as this year goes: 66 regulars season wins + 16 postseason wins= 82 wins, total. 82 is the total of regular season games played, and the Heat won that number of games this year.

Well when your discussing the best teams of all your go with a season - 96 Bulls, 86 Celtics etc...When your talking dynasties you talking multiple years (3 straight trips to the Finals). I don't think Miami has had a historic enough or dominant enough season/playoff run to put them up there with the top 5 teams of all time, they have a shot at being one of the better multi-year dynasties if they make the Finals again/three peat. You also have to take into account the watered down conference they play in, and the lack of competition on the way to the Finals.

I don't think anyone would consider the Nets even a top 50 team of all time but they made back to back Finals. When trips to the Finals are as expected as they are for Miami, and there is no legitimate powerhouse to battle them in the Conference, the three straight trips to the Finals becomes a little 'less impressive' and the struggle against 49 win team like the Pacers who got blown out by 40 by the Hawks and our a pretty awful offensive squad, its hard to consider them one of the most dominant, or best teams ever.

The bold is completely irrelevant to anything with regards to this discussion.

A win is a win and a championship is a championship, but when your trying to rank the best teams ever, you have to account for HOW you win because thats the only way to differentiate champions from champions.

RiceOnTheRun
06-23-2013, 05:31 PM
lol sorry but westbrook, durant, martin, ibaka, i don't see how lebron has far and away more talent than that team. espcially considering wades major decline.

It's not that Miami's roster is talent-stacked, they're built with a purpose. Just signing the top FA out there is useless, look at what happened to LA. Miami signed players that would fit. Sharpshooters to take advantage of Lebron's double-teams. CB to spread out the floor for Lebron. Tough, intelligent defenders like Shane Battier to throw at opposing teams. Lebron would honestly be a great GM, because he understands how the game works and how to build a cohesive team.


They'll do anything to discredit. It's hilarious.

2011: Chokers. Lebron will never win one.

2012: It's only one. Lockout shortened season. "Weak" opponents.

2013: It's only two. Spurs are old. Still four more to go.

2014: It's only three. Lebron still a choker. 6 > 3 huehuehuehue

You can never please em. Can you?

Big Zo
06-23-2013, 05:31 PM
Well when your discussing the best teams of all your go with a season - 96 Bulls, 86 Celtics etc...When your talking dynasties you talking multiple years (3 straight trips to the Finals). I don't think Miami has had a historic enough or dominant enough season/playoff run to put them up there with the top 5 teams of all time, they have a shot at being one of the better multi-year dynasties if they make the Finals again/three peat. You also have to take into account the watered down conference they play in, and the lack of competition on the way to the Finals.

I don't think anyone would consider the Nets even a top 50 team of all time but they made back to back Finals. When trips to the Finals are as expected as they are for Miami, and there is no legitimate powerhouse to battle them in the Conference, the three straight trips to the Finals becomes a little 'less impressive' and the struggle against 49 win team like the Pacers who got blown out by 40 by the Hawks and our a pretty awful offensive squad, its hard to consider them one of the most dominant, or best teams ever.

The bold is completely irrelevant to anything with regards to this discussion.

A win is a win and a championship is a championship, but when your trying to rank the best teams ever, you have to account for HOW you win because thats the only way to differentiate champions from champions.

Who was the great powerhouse that the 90's Bulls had to face? The Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics were already past their prime when Chicago started winning. Are we gonna punish the showtime Lakers for having to play game 7's, too? Did the 80's Celtics ever repeat?

Chronz
06-23-2013, 05:33 PM
Yes winning from a TEAM perspective is enough. That is the ultimate goal. It doesn't matter how you get there.
From an individuals perspective however...winning is not enough. If the Heat won but LBJ played poorly....most nba heads would actually hold that ring against James
It matters bro. Maybe not for the reasons the op gave (expectations wise ) but every team thats a champ can claim to wining the whole thing, only the elite of the elite can claim utter domination.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 05:40 PM
It matters bro. Maybe not for the reasons the op gave (expectations wise ) but every team thats a champ can claim to wining the whole thing, only the elite of the elite can claim utter domination.

Exactly, every champion is a champion, the only way to differentiate is by how much they dominated the competition.

D-Leethal
06-23-2013, 05:47 PM
Who was the great powerhouse that the 90's Bulls had to face? The Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics were already past their prime when Chicago started winning. Are we gonna punish the showtime Lakers for having to play game 7's, too? Did the 80's Celtics ever repeat?

Pistons, Cavs, Knicks, Magic, Pacers, even the 90s Heat were all 55-60+ win teams stacked with HOF stars and were much better teams than anyone Miami has had to face during this run with the exception of MAYBE the 60 win Chicago team. Chicago was taking out multiple 60 win teams during nearly every run. The East in the 90s was way better than it is now. With the exception of the Knicks, Chicago never struggled with anyone to the degree Miami struggled with Indy and Roy Hibbert is not Patrick Ewing.

Who is punishing anyone? I'm discussing what it takes to be considered one of the greatest teams of all time.

naps
06-23-2013, 05:52 PM
Threads like this make me laugh. Some of these posters still can't absorb Heat win. Their constant endeavor to find flaws and excuses to discredit the Heat and LeBron are truly amusing. Keep it up!

JasonJohnHorn
06-23-2013, 10:11 PM
I love when people point to what other people say instead of directly attacking the posters stance. Wade is the best SG when HEALTHY. He WAS NOT HEALTHY in the post season. Thats kind of related to the fact that hes declining and the production hes at is pathetic for a star.



More of a refresher, he made THIRD TEAM ALL-NBA.

You say third team like that's unimpressive? There isonly one shooting guard ranked highuer than Wade (all other guards on the All-NBA teams were point guards this season), and that shooting guard wasn't even in the playoffs this year! Less-average/hurt Wade SHOULD DOMINATE over 35-year-old-hurt Ginobili/Danny Green/Gary Neal.



Why did you bring up MJ? Is Wade suppose to follow MJ's career curve? What about the multitude of other players who saw their games decline as they entered the age Wade is at?

I don't expect Wade to be as good as Jordan (he never was), I'm simply stating that he is still in his prime years. 31 is young in the NBA.






The teams you mentioned went the distance in THEIR FIRST ROUND SERIES. Do you even remember the Celtics barely beating the sub .500 Hawks? You can find similar examples for the others as well. Why the glaring inconsistencies in your approach? Oh yea, because you have NOTHING to stand on.

This is fair also. But the Hawks played a great series and were well coached. They had JJ, J-Smith and Al Horford, not to mention a Mike Bibby that was still playing great basketball. That roster this season would have been a 50-win team. They were a good squad.

The Heat are talented, and deserve the championship. What I'm speaking to is where they stand all time and if winning is enough. The Warriors won a title, as did Portland and Seattle and Washington, but few people ever mention those teams as being among the greatest. LBJ, Wade and Bosh got together to win and create a legacy. But with that level of talent comes high expectations. This thread is not meant to discredit what they've done, merely ask if they are performing at a level befitting a rank among the greatest teams of all time. I don't think they are.


I stand by what I said. If the 2012 Celtics can take the Heat to 7 games, the 08 Celtics would beat them handily. The 09/10 Lakers had one of the best front courts in recent memory with Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest and I think they would eat Miami alive.


These side conversations are detracting from the question at hand and posters are projecting something onto the post that wasn't there. The Heat won. They earned it. There is no question about that. The question is: Is winning enough?

Do I like how the Heat built this team? No. It's bad for the league. But that is not the question here. The question is essentially: Where does this team rank among other championship teams?

Big Zo
06-23-2013, 10:38 PM
I stand by what I said. If the 2012 Celtics can take the Heat to 7 games, the 08 Celtics would beat them handily. The 09/10 Lakers had one of the best front courts in recent memory with Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest and I think they would eat Miami alive.




The Heat beat that same Celtics team in 5 games the year before. Were the Celtics that much improved from the previous year? In the end, they beat them two years in a row, and that's what matters.

Chronz
06-23-2013, 10:41 PM
You say third team like that's unimpressive?
But arent you expecting UTTER DOMINATION? Is 3rd team suppose to impress me in that context? The guy isnt done but hes not exactly the Wade he used to be.


Less-average/hurt Wade SHOULD DOMINATE over 35-year-old-hurt Ginobili/Danny Green/Gary Neal.

He did. Look at their stats compared to his. Thats about as good as Wade can muster these days. Thats why the team isnt rampaging the league, because its not 2 superstars at their peak. Wade is heavily injury prone these days.



I don't expect Wade to be as good as Jordan (he never was), I'm simply stating that he is still in his prime years. 31 is young in the NBA.

Attempting to prove that by pointing at MJ was nonsensical any way you cut it. I think age is relative. Players like Wade do not age well IMO and 31 is far from young in the NBA. Do you know how often Wade has been injured in the playoffs? Its like a 70/30 proposition at this point.


This is fair also. But the Hawks played a great series and were well coached.
Generic statement that applies to every team that pushed a superior team to the limit.


They had JJ, J-Smith and Al Horford, not to mention a Mike Bibby that was still playing great basketball. That roster this season would have been a 50-win team. They were a good squad.

LOL they were sub.500 for a reason. They may have been a team on the ascension but they were in no way shape or form in Boston's league. By all accounts they should have dominated. Remember how Boston won in 6 games against them in 2012, same core players, same coach, same team. Only Atlanta had HCA and Boston was clearly not as good as it was in 08.

So please stop with the excuses, all of them could be said of Miami and then some.



The Heat are talented, and deserve the championship. What I'm speaking to is where they stand all time and if winning is enough. The Warriors won a title, as did Portland and Seattle and Washington, but few people ever mention those teams as being among the greatest. LBJ, Wade and Bosh got together to win and create a legacy. But with that level of talent comes high expectations. This thread is not meant to discredit what they've done, merely ask if they are performing at a level befitting a rank among the greatest teams of all time. I don't think they are.
That argument stands well on its own, my problem was with your comparisons. Those teams all had moments of weakness. As for your argument, the Heat are disappointing in that sense because they arent a Bulls like dynasty but thats for the better of the sport IMO. The Bulls were ridiculously better than everyone else.



I stand by what I said. If the 2012 Celtics can take the Heat to 7 games, the 08 Celtics would beat them handily.
Well thats like me saying if the 08 Cavs could take those Celtics to 7 games then these Heat would have beaten them, isnt it?

You can theorize watever scenario you want but I really dont understand your circular logic. Personally tho, I would agree, the 2012 Heat were playing without Bosh for most of the series and needed Bron to go NOVA against them. Thats much harder against those Celtics, not sure what you want to hold against them, injuries are a part of the sport but they are unpredictable.


The 09/10 Lakers had one of the best front courts in recent memory with Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest and I think they would eat Miami alive.

That didn't stop them from going 7 against far inferior teams than Miami. So long as we acknowledge that none of these teams particularly stands out against the other, there is no problem siding with any of them. But to convince me any of them would eat the other alive is something I dont agree with. The Heat have matchup problems, but they can offset them in many ways. Its just a matter of health. If you tell me the Heat are fully healthy, I would need alot more convincing that they would get eaten up.

NoahH
06-24-2013, 01:21 AM
How they got the rings doesn't show up, just the ring count.

But i think the HEAT kind of coast through the first couple rounds. I'll be watching a playoff game and be thinking.. WTF is going on, then when they need to they step it up and finish their opponent out.

OceanSpray
06-24-2013, 01:24 AM
How they got the rings doesn't show up, just the ring count.

But i think the HEAT kind of coast through the first couple rounds. I'll be watching a playoff game and be thinking.. WTF is going on, then when they need to they step it up and finish their opponent out.

That's moreso their own problem. It seems they don't care to win unless the media trashes them. The motivation just isn't there. It might have to do with Spo not being a motivating coach. If you put Rivers on that team, I can assure you they will have a sense of urgency from beginning to end.