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View Full Version : NBA All-time Redraft: Minneapolis (4) VS Seattle (5)



PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 01:02 AM
Disclaimer: Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.
Minneapolis has HCA. Minutes distribution are in parenthesis.

C: Shaquille O'Neal (38) l Jack Sikma (10) l P.J. Brown (0)
PF: Jack Sikma (25) l Bobby Jones (15) l P.J. Brown (8) l Otis Thorpe (0)
SF: Bobby Jones (18) l Peja Stojakovic (30) l Dick Van Arsdale (0)
SG: Tracy McGrady (38) l Jeff Hornacek (10)
PG: Bob Cousy (30) l Jeff Hornacek (12) l Reggie Theus (6) l Rajon Rondo (0)


First off we would like to congratulate Seattle on making it to the playoffs.

Offensive Philosophy:
This is the end of the floor where we feel we can be dominant. We have two of the best offensive players of all time in Shaquille O’Neal and Tracy McGrady. In his 3 year prime Shaq averaged about 28.5 PPG on a .580 TS. He also won multiple titles and I think the rest can speak for itself as most of us have seen how dominant Shaq was. In McGrady’s case he averaged 29 PPG in his 3 year prime on roughly a .545 TS. McGrady would also benefit from playing with a dominant presence inside and a top 10 player of all time. Another thing that some people may question is the Cousy and McGrady in the backcourt and they are both dominant ball type guys. As you can see by our minutes depth chart the plan is to attempt to have one of Hornacek or Peja on the floor at all times. This is going to allow great spacing for McGrady or Cousy to drive and either kick it out to one of these sharp shooters or take it to the rim themselves. Another thing this opens up is that if they want to double Shaq, then he will have options to kick it out. People may question playing Jack Sikma at PF but we feel that is a perfect fit with Shaq. Sikma can hit the mid-range jumper which is all we need him to do. We feel that we have everything that you need to be successful on offense in guys that can attack the rim, sharp shooters from the outside, and a dominant inside presence.

Defensive Philosophy:
While our defense is not as strong as our offense we still feel we have the pieces to be successful. We have Bobby Jones who was a 7 time All NBA Defensive First Team who will be guarding a mixture of Gervin and Wallace. While we know that Oscar will be get his as Cousy is not a great defender, we don’t see an area where we will be beat on the defensive end. Shaq has the size to shut down Dwight as he tends to struggle with guys that are bigger than him. Michael Cooper won’t be taking advantage of McGrady as he is basically a defensive player. Then we will have Jones on Gervin to start and Sikma on Rasheed. Sikma was also not a poor defender as he made an all 2nd NBA Defensive Team. We then also have PJ Brown off of the bench where if any of our big men get in trouble, he can step in and be a dominant defensive presence. Again while the Big O will get his, we feel we can shut down his supporting cast as we feel we have some great matchups defensively.

Seattle

C: Dwight Howard (36) | Rasheed Wallace (8) | Zydrunas Ilgauskas (4)
PF: Rasheed Wallace (24) | Horace Grant (24) | Paul Silas (0)
SF: George Gervin (24) | Dan Majerle (24)
SG: Michael Cooper (30) | George Gervin (10) | Byron Scott (8)
PG: Oscar Robertson (36) | Derek Fisher (12) | Larry Drew (0)



Oscar Robertson vs Bob Cousy
Cousy played in an era in which shooting around 40% from the field was considered league average. He shot consistently under 40% for his entire career. This is a major disadvantage for my opposition because he is going up against a player who in all honesty was ahead of his time. The Big O possessed many abilities which would translate well into any era of the NBA. Everyone knows Oscar averaged a triple-double for an entire season, but at 6'6 he was also a solid defender. His length and quickness will make it tough for Cousy to get acclimated with the flow of the game. His ability to run the fast break will be instrumental in generating quick buckets with the likes of Cooper, Gervin and Howard sprinting down the lanes. Oscar's great shot selection and passing ability will also allow Seattle to play some halfcourt sets, allowing Gervin, Sheed and Howard to get some post-up opportunities.
Advantage: Seattle

Michael Cooper vs Tracy McGrady
T-Mac was a heck of a player in his prime, a great #2 option on a contending team. He is matched up against former DPOY and 8-time All-Defensive Team selection Michael Cooper. A member of all 5 of Showtime Lakers championships, Michael Cooper will have the task of defending Tracy McGrady, a player who has gotten out of the first round of an NBA playoffs just once. Offensively, Cooper will provide ball movement, spot-up shooting from the corners (career 39.2% from 3 in the playoffs), and run the fast break as he so famously did with Magic at his side. Whenever Coop is out of the game, 2-time All-Defensive Team selection Dan Majerle will have the task of defending T-Mac.
Advantage: Minneapolis

George Gervin vs Bobby Jones/Peja Stojakovic
Bobby Jones was a solid defender in the 80s, but he cannot guard George Gervin in this series. Bobby Jones played the PF position and does not have the quickness to defend one of the most efficient scorers the NBA has ever seen. In 31 regular season matchups, Gervin has averaged 29.5 PPG although Bobby played off the bench a lot of the time. Unless Minneapolis wants T-Mac playing defense and offense for 30+ minutes, Bobby Jones will most likely be assigned the duty of defending the Iceman. They certainly do not want Peja Stojakovic defending a 4-time NBA scoring champion. There may be some concern about playing Gervin at SF, but his game was really that of a swingman. Gervin was perhaps the poster child for this change in the NBA regarding traditional positions as he could use his speed and quickness to drive past bigger defenders and post up smaller players with his length.
Advantage: Seattle

Rasheed Wallace vs Jack Sikma
Jack Sikma was a very tough player, but is playing out of position. He played Center his entire career and while he can play the PF for stretches, he is being asked to play 20+ minutes next to Shaquille O'Neal who will be demanding the ball constantly on offense. Sikma will not provide enough floor spacing for T-Mac or Shaq to operate as they like and could get lost offensively on the floor at times. On the other hand, Rasheed Wallace provides a solid balance to Seattle's lineup with his ability to post up and step behind the arc for the 3. Both players are very tough and won't back down from anyone, but Rasheed is just a better fit at the PF position.
Advantage: Seattle (slight)

Dwight Howard vs Shaquille O'Neal
While there is no doubt that Shaq is a freak of nature, Kazaam at his peak did not go up against a Center such as Dwight. He was bullying the likes of Smits and Divac, who were not the physical type like Howard. This will be a great challenge for Dwight in the first round, and all we expect from him is to beat Shaq down the floor, get transition buckets and rebound the ball. Should Dwight get in foul trouble, Horace Grant and Zydrunas Ilgauskas will see some time on Shaq, who was known for getting into foul trouble when throwing those elbows in the post.
Advantage: Minneapolis

Bench
Off the bench, Seattle is bringing championship experience with 3-time NBA champion Byron Scott, 4-time NBA champion Horace Grant and 5-time NBA champion Derek Fisher. These three players, along with Dan Majerle will get the majority of the playing time off the bench. Minneapolis will feature Peja off the bench and Majerle will make sure to stick on him and force him off the 3PT line. We feel our bench will be the deciding factor in this series because our players know what it takes to get to the mountain top and have done it multiple times.
Advantage: Seattle

Overall we feel we have the team to take down this 2-headed monster. Shaq will have to do a lot more for this team than he had to do for his championship squads in his prime. He doesn't have a Robert Horry or Derek Fisher who will step up and knock down a crucial shot down the stretch. There is not enough spacing for Minneapolis with Peja being the only threat from downtown. Seattle will look to capitalize on the offensive end with one of the greatest floor generals in Oscar Robertson using his versatility to run in fast break opportunities or slow it down and play the halfcourt game.

Thank you for taking your time in reading this writeup. Good luck to Minneapolis.

Lucky.
06-20-2013, 01:11 AM
Shaq on Dwight







More to come...




...Maybe

Killerjug
06-20-2013, 01:30 AM
GL chaq should be a good one

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 01:38 AM
This could be a pretty close series but I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of some of the things Seattle is doing like giving his bench a ton of minutes. And honestly, that is a huge advantage for Minny with the way they've distributed their minutes. Not a fan of Fisher playing 10 minutes when you have Oscar.

I think Seattle also needs to see Minny's minutes distribution because I see some things they could attack. But at the moment, I am definitely leaning towards Minny. I'll let Seattle respond.

Chacarron
06-20-2013, 02:08 AM
George Gervin will have his throughout this series. Peja Stojakovic cannot guard him and Bobby Jones will only see around 15 minutes at SF. Dan Majerle is more than capable of scoring against Peja, who just doesn't have a chance in this series. Oscar Robertson is another player who will have a field day with Cousy playing 30 minutes against him. Those are two huge mismatches that we plan to abuse. Rasheed and Grant splitting the minutes at PF will help Dwight collect rebounds and stop Minneapolis from getting 2nd chance opportunities.

The main reason Fisher is getting 12 minutes is for shooting, and although the minutes distribution does not show it, Fisher will see floor time alongside Oscar at the end of games should Seattle need a clutch basket.

Seattle has enough defenders to throw at Shaq and T-Mac, and I am honestly not afraid of their supporting cast. I don't see how giving reliable championship-caliber players off the bench is a problem in this series, considering the likes of Fisher, Majerle and Grant provide defense and shooting (with the exception of Grant).

Killerjug
06-20-2013, 02:35 AM
Shaq will feast on Dwight and if it's Rasheed guarding him I see no difference. Jones will also see time at PF thus limiting what Rasheed can do offensively as well. Also Sikma is a pretty damn good rebounder beside Shaq when he is out on the floor

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 02:38 AM
George Gervin will have his throughout this series. Peja Stojakovic cannot guard him and Bobby Jones will only see around 15 minutes at SF. Dan Majerle is more than capable of scoring against Peja, who just doesn't have a chance in this series. Oscar Robertson is another player who will have a field day with Cousy playing 30 minutes against him. Those are two huge mismatches that we plan to abuse. Rasheed and Grant splitting the minutes at PF will help Dwight collect rebounds and stop Minneapolis from getting 2nd chance opportunities.

I agree with all of this.



The main reason Fisher is getting 12 minutes is for shooting, and although the minutes distribution does not show it, Fisher will see floor time alongside Oscar at the end of games should Seattle need a clutch basket.

What does your closing lineup look like? Are you taking out Cooper? If you're taking out Cooper, would you have Oscar guard T-Mac some?



Seattle has enough defenders to throw at Shaq and T-Mac, and I am honestly not afraid of their supporting cast. I don't see how giving reliable championship-caliber players off the bench is a problem in this series, considering the likes of Fisher, Majerle and Grant provide defense and shooting (with the exception of Grant).

Honestly, my big issue was with Oscar only getting 36 minutes and from the way the minutes were shown, it looked like Fisher would be getting those 12 minutes instead of Oscar. I'd like to see you expand a bit on your closing lineup and what your strategy is there.

But as I said, my issue is with Oscar getting only 36 minutes. I think you have a massive advantage with Oscar vs. Cousy so I'd like to see Oscar take advantage of it for more minutes. Even his backups, I feel like you have an advantage there.

Chacarron
06-20-2013, 02:48 AM
My closing lineup will look like this:

Fisher - Oscar - Cooper - Sheed - Dwight

I keep Coop on T-Mac while Fisher plays off the ball and matches up against the smaller player. The 36 minutes should not be taken literally like with any other minute distribution, I am not restricting Oscar to 36 minutes a night, I am not going to take him out with 3 minutes left in a close game if he already hit the 36 minute mark.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 02:59 AM
My closing lineup will look like this:

Fisher - Oscar - Cooper - Sheed - Dwight

I keep Coop on T-Mac while Fisher plays off the ball and matches up against the smaller player. The 36 minutes should not be taken literally like with any other minute distribution, I am not restricting Oscar to 36 minutes a night, I am not going to take him out with 3 minutes left in a close game if he already hit the 36 minute mark.

Fair enough. But I feel by taking out Gervin, you lose one of your huge advantages. And I honestly just don't get why you'd want to take out Gervin for Fisher. If Peja is out there on the floor, Gervin can score on him in crunch time. I think by taking him out, your offense while getting more spacing still suffers by not having on of it's best scorers on the floor.

Chacarron
06-20-2013, 11:48 AM
Fair enough. But I feel by taking out Gervin, you lose one of your huge advantages. And I honestly just don't get why you'd want to take out Gervin for Fisher. If Peja is out there on the floor, Gervin can score on him in crunch time. I think by taking him out, your offense while getting more spacing still suffers by not having on of it's best scorers on the floor.

It's all circumstantial to be honest. Fisher gives me a legit 3-point shooter who I may need in the last minute or so in the game. While Gervin is a great scorer, isolating him on the wing or high post may stagnate my offense a bit late in the game, especially if I am down by 3 or more. Oscar Robertson will have the ball in his hand at the end of games in order to score on his man or hit the open man (Sheed, Coop or Fish) off the Dwight PnR.

I don't know if Peja will be on the floor at the end of games, one can make the assumption that he will or won't. I can easily play Gervin late in games if Peja is out there defending him, but there are too many variables to be considered in late game situations. I also think Fisher has proven throughout his career that he is not afraid of taking the big shot, and the 5 rings under his belt prove that he should be playing late in games. How many times has Fisher saved the Lakers by hitting a clutch shot in the playoffs, or better yet in the Finals?

Here is a sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqd1Rx82bno

Baller1
06-20-2013, 12:03 PM
The two players that are the "eye candy" for Minny are Shaq and T-Mac... Yes, those two are some of the best offensive forces to ever play in the NBA, but our two best defenders (owners of multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards) in Cooper and Dwight get to man their two forces straight up. Outside of those two players, Minny will desperately struggle to put points on the board.

Meanwhile, Seattle has two of the greatest offensive forces the game has ever seen without nearly the defensive prowess from Minny to throw at them. Neither Jones or Peja have a shot of stopping the Iceman, nor can Cousy even remotely keep up with a player like Oscar.

The fact that our two best players get to run rampid against Minny's defense while their two best players are being guarded by defensive guru's (lets not forget the type of defender Dwight was just a couple years ago when healthy) is the deciding factor in this series. With a stretch for and a shooter at the wing opposite Gervin, Big O and the Iceman dominate this series.

Killerjug
06-20-2013, 12:06 PM
Dwight is going to stop Shaq? I highly highly doubt that and theres no doubt Cooper is a good defender but T Mac is still going to get his regardless and while Oscar will get his as I said he is not a very good defender and if youve ever seen Cousy play he is great at attacking the rim and would be able to kick it out to our shooters who are two of the best 3 point shooters of all time

Lucky.
06-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Oscar Robertson vs Bob Cousy
Cousy played in an era in which shooting around 40% from the field was considered league average. He shot consistently under 40% for his entire career. This is a major disadvantage for my opposition because he is going up against a player who in all honesty was ahead of his time. The Big O possessed many abilities which would translate well into any era of the NBA. Everyone knows Oscar averaged a triple-double for an entire season, but at 6'6 he was also a solid defender. His length and quickness will make it tough for Cousy to get acclimated with the flow of the game. His ability to run the fast break will be instrumental in generating quick buckets with the likes of Cooper, Gervin and Howard sprinting down the lanes. Oscar's great shot selection and passing ability will also allow Seattle to play some halfcourt sets, allowing Gervin, Sheed and Howard to get some post-up opportunities.
Advantage: Seattle

This is our biggest disadvantage, no way around it. Robertson was great. But we're not going to have Cousy shoot jumpshots. He will be getting the ball to our guys, and driving to the hoop. Cousy was ahead of his time as well, passing wise at least. He doesn't have the height of Robertson, or the defense. But he's still one of the greatest passers of all time. Something I'd just like to show people is a video of Cousy. Show people the passes that he is capable of making. It is just under 3 minutes long.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcxYUCQOZI


Michael Cooper vs Tracy McGrady
T-Mac was a heck of a player in his prime, a great #2 option on a contending team. He is matched up against former DPOY and 8-time All-Defensive Team selection Michael Cooper. A member of all 5 of Showtime Lakers championships, Michael Cooper will have the task of defending Tracy McGrady, a player who has gotten out of the first round of an NBA playoffs just once. Offensively, Cooper will provide ball movement, spot-up shooting from the corners (career 39.2% from 3 in the playoffs), and run the fast break as he so famously did with Magic at his side. Whenever Coop is out of the game, 2-time All-Defensive Team selection Dan Majerle will have the task of defending T-Mac.
Advantage: Minneapolis

Quite honestly I have to go, so maybe KJ can do this part but unfortunately I can't finish.


George Gervin vs Bobby Jones/Peja Stojakovic
Bobby Jones was a solid defender in the 80s, but he cannot guard George Gervin in this series. Bobby Jones played the PF position and does not have the quickness to defend one of the most efficient scorers the NBA has ever seen. In 31 regular season matchups, Gervin has averaged 29.5 PPG although Bobby played off the bench a lot of the time. Unless Minneapolis wants T-Mac playing defense and offense for 30+ minutes, Bobby Jones will most likely be assigned the duty of defending the Iceman. They certainly do not want Peja Stojakovic defending a 4-time NBA scoring champion. There may be some concern about playing Gervin at SF, but his game was really that of a swingman. Gervin was perhaps the poster child for this change in the NBA regarding traditional positions as he could use his speed and quickness to drive past bigger defenders and post up smaller players with his length.
Advantage: Seattle

Bobby Jones was more than a solid defender, he was one of the greatest of all time. He has the versatility to guard, and play both the SF and PF position. He would have gotten more playing time at SF in his career if he wasn't playing next to Julius Erving. We have Jones playing 18 minutes at SF, while you have Gervin playing 24 minutes at SF. There's no doubt in my mind Jones will be able to keep up with Gervin. Jones can play by the 3pt line, known for his famous 3pt blocks. Jones was a 9-time All-Defensive player.

Jones does not have a 3pt shot, but he was super effecient throughout his career, having a career average TS% of .607; leaving him to be the ultimate glue player. Gervin wasn't exactly known for his defense, either.



Rasheed Wallace vs Jack Sikma
Jack Sikma was a very tough player, but is playing out of position. He played Center his entire career and while he can play the PF for stretches, he is being asked to play 20+ minutes next to Shaquille O'Neal who will be demanding the ball constantly on offense. Sikma will not provide enough floor spacing for T-Mac or Shaq to operate as they like and could get lost offensively on the floor at times. On the other hand, Rasheed Wallace provides a solid balance to Seattle's lineup with his ability to post up and step behind the arc for the 3. Both players are very tough and won't back down from anyone, but Rasheed is just a better fit at the PF position.
Advantage: Seattle (slight)

Jack Sikma is not out of position. He came into the league as a PF and eventually changed to center due to injuries. He played very well, keeping him full time there as a center. But he showed many times that he's capable of playing PF.

Jack Sikma was an all around very good player. He had many moves in the post, a good jumpshot that would go all the way out to the 3pt line. We felt as if Sikma was a great fit next to Shaq, whether people say he's out of position or not. He's shown to play great defense at times, getting an All-NBA defensive team in his career, has a very dependable jumpshot and can even work in the post.

Sikma will see Rasheed most of this series, having Sikma playing 25 minutes at PF (Rasheed 24) and 10 at C (Rasheed 8). Both can shoot, and I expect both to be a big factor offensively. Something I do have an edge in this matchup is rebounding.


Dwight Howard vs Shaquille O'Neal
While there is no doubt that Shaq is a freak of nature, Kazaam at his peak did not go up against a Center such as Dwight. He was bullying the likes of Smits and Divac, who were not the physical type like Howard. This will be a great challenge for Dwight in the first round, and all we expect from him is to beat Shaq down the floor, get transition buckets and rebound the ball. Should Dwight get in foul trouble, Horace Grant and Zydrunas Ilgauskas will see some time on Shaq, who was known for getting into foul trouble when throwing those elbows in the post.
Advantage: Minneapolis


We have no doubt that we can exploit this matchup greatly, and eventually leading us to a win. You say Shaq didn't go up against the physical type that Dwight is, but what has Dwight gone against? Surely nothing like Shaq. And when he has gone up against physical play (Dwight) what has he shown? I expect Dwight to be in foul trouble, as you mentioned. I just haven't seen anything to convince me that Dwight would be able to handle Shaq. If Howard were to get in foul trouble, it would only get worse.



Bench
Off the bench, Seattle is bringing championship experience with 3-time NBA champion Byron Scott, 4-time NBA champion Horace Grant and 5-time NBA champion Derek Fisher. These three players, along with Dan Majerle will get the majority of the playing time off the bench. Minneapolis will feature Peja off the bench and Majerle will make sure to stick on him and force him off the 3PT line. We feel our bench will be the deciding factor in this series because our players know what it takes to get to the mountain top and have done it multiple times.
Advantage: Seattle


Overall we feel we have the team to take down this 2-headed monster. Shaq will have to do a lot more for this team than he had to do for his championship squads in his prime. He doesn't have a Robert Horry or Derek Fisher who will step up and knock down a crucial shot down the stretch. There is not enough spacing for Minneapolis with Peja being the only threat from downtown. Seattle will look to capitalize on the offensive end with one of the greatest floor generals in Oscar Robertson using his versatility to run in fast break opportunities or slow it down and play the halfcourt game.

Most of our players are very versatile and that's why you will be seeing some of the starting lineup playing a big role off the bench at different positions.

Jack Sikma will be the backup to Shaq when he sits down, or if Shaq were to ever get in foul trouble, we have a fully capable replacement. Obviously that's not what we want, but if it were come down to it...


Bobby Jones will be coming off the bench at PF, inserting Peja Stojakcovic. This lineup would give us spacing. Peja would get many good looks playing next to TMac and Shaq.

Jeff Hornacek who wasn't mentioned, can come in and provide more spacing for our players. His shooting can't go unnoticed. More than likely, at just about all times one of Hornacek or Peja will be in. When TMac sits, Hornacek will be his replacement. Peja will be playing starter minutes. At times we will even have both in, playing Hornacek at PG. When you look at our team there may not be the greatest spacing, but at just about all times we'll have a very good shooter in, with a big that can stretch the floor in Sikma. Something I would also like to point out, is if we go by peak years, which we are, TMac shot 38% from the 3pt line.




My closing lineup will look like this:

Fisher - Oscar - Cooper - Sheed - Dwight

I keep Coop on T-Mac while Fisher plays off the ball and matches up against the smaller player. The 36 minutes should not be taken literally like with any other minute distribution, I am not restricting Oscar to 36 minutes a night, I am not going to take him out with 3 minutes left in a close game if he already hit the 36 minute mark.


The plan was to have Hornacek late in the game, but if you are planning on playing Fisher, we have no problem playing Reggie Theus who is 6'7 and is great at cutting to the basket.

This would leave us with Theus - McGrady - Stojakovic - Bobby Jones - Shaq

Leaving Fisher guarding the smallest player, Theus at 6'7. I have a hard time seeing Fisher being able to guard Theus.

Ebbs
06-20-2013, 12:11 PM
This is the best matchup this far.

Chronz
06-20-2013, 12:15 PM
The most interesting series thus far IMO.

I like what you've done with the team Killerjug, when we did the Power Rankings I didn't think that highly of your team, which is shocking considering they have my 2 favorite players to watch, but you have since then rectified many of the problems. Its just a shame you are neglecting to utilize Tmac's defensive versatility.

Contrary to popular belief, Tmac (when engaged) was a supremely talented defender, in his hey he was capable of defending 1-4 and even played Center in some zone schemes. And he was always engaged come playoff time, the number of star scorers he has helped shut down in some way is very impressive considering he only gets 1 crack at a playoff series every year. Putting Tmac on Oscar would have won you at least one game, no joke its a far better resolution than having Cousy. Both of you have that poor defender you can hide on each others weakest offensive player (Hes hiding Gervin on Jones) but you arent hiding Cousy on Cooper. I dont feel the advantage of Tmac getting rest (hes only playing 38MPG) to be more important than putting your best perimeter defender on their matchup nightmare at the PG. Tmac can check Gervin and Jones can try containing Oscar. You have better options IMO.

On a team with liabilities like Cousy and some would argue Peja+Sikma (in this matchup particularly), having an athlete like Tmac playing free safety out there could be useful.

That said, I think you have a great rotation working, I presume the minutes Hornacek is technically at the 1 are the minutes that Tmac is actually doing his point-forward routine. Brilliant idea but you should be sure to stress the fact that you plan on staggering the minutes between Cousy-Tmac in a similar fashion that the Rockets began staggering the minutes between Lin-Harden this year. Or the way Spo does with Wade-Bron sometimes.

The Shaq factor always gives you a chance but Ill await the responses before voting in this scenario.

Chacarron
06-20-2013, 12:59 PM
The plan was to have Hornacek late in the game, but if you are planning on playing Fisher, we have no problem playing Reggie Theus who is 6'7 and is great at cutting to the basket.

This would leave us with Theus - McGrady - Stojakovic - Bobby Jones - Shaq

Leaving Fisher guarding the smallest player, Theus at 6'7. I have a hard time seeing Fisher being able to guard Theus.

This is what I said about late game situations being circumstantial.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 01:39 PM
The most interesting series thus far IMO.

I like what you've done with the team Killerjug, when we did the Power Rankings I didn't think that highly of your team, which is shocking considering they have my 2 favorite players to watch, but you have since then rectified many of the problems. Its just a shame you are neglecting to utilize Tmac's defensive versatility.

Contrary to popular belief, Tmac (when engaged) was a supremely talented defender, in his hey he was capable of defending 1-4 and even played Center in some zone schemes. And he was always engaged come playoff time, the number of star scorers he has helped shut down in some way is very impressive considering he only gets 1 crack at a playoff series every year. Putting Tmac on Oscar would have won you at least one game, no joke its a far better resolution than having Cousy. Both of you have that poor defender you can hide on each others weakest offensive player (Hes hiding Gervin on Jones) but you arent hiding Cousy on Cooper. I dont feel the advantage of Tmac getting rest (hes only playing 38MPG) to be more important than putting your best perimeter defender on their matchup nightmare at the PG. Tmac can check Gervin and Jones can try containing Oscar. You have better options IMO.

On a team with liabilities like Cousy and some would argue Peja+Sikma (in this matchup particularly), having an athlete like Tmac playing free safety out there could be useful.

That said, I think you have a great rotation working, I presume the minutes Hornacek is technically at the 1 are the minutes that Tmac is actually doing his point-forward routine. Brilliant idea but you should be sure to stress the fact that you plan on staggering the minutes between Cousy-Tmac in a similar fashion that the Rockets began staggering the minutes between Lin-Harden this year. Or the way Spo does with Wade-Bron sometimes.

The Shaq factor always gives you a chance but Ill await the responses before voting in this scenario.

Yeah, there's definitely some defensive tactics in here that KJ and Lucky missed. For one, putting T-Mac on Oscar is much better than putting Cousy on Oscar. And obviously staggering the minutes so you have Cousy with T-Mac less would be important imo. That's still a very weird backcourt though and if when Cousy and T-Mac are on the court together, if you're just using T-Mac as a 3 point shooter, that's a waste of his skills. So as you said, I'd definitely try to limit their minutes together.

Chronz
06-20-2013, 01:44 PM
Any chance I can get the top 3 units you guys would prefer to play? Including your preferred "Closing" unit.

Killerjug
06-20-2013, 01:52 PM
Our preferred closing lineup would likely be Hornacek - T Mac - Peja - Jones - Shaq, but like Chac said it's circumstanial because if we are in the lead we like roll with more of a Horncek - T Mac - Jones - Sikma - Shaq to provide more of a defensive approach so it would all depend on how the game is going. Also the plan is to have T Mac and Cousy split up whenever possible as we know both are dominant ball handlers

Lucky.
06-20-2013, 01:58 PM
The two players that are the "eye candy" for Minny are Shaq and T-Mac... Yes, those two are some of the best offensive forces to ever play in the NBA, but our two best defenders (owners of multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards) in Cooper and Dwight get to man their two forces straight up. Outside of those two players, Minny will desperately struggle to put points on the board.

Meanwhile, Seattle has two of the greatest offensive forces the game has ever seen without nearly the defensive prowess from Minny to throw at them. Neither Jones or Peja have a shot of stopping the Iceman, nor can Cousy even remotely keep up with a player like Oscar.

The fact that our two best players get to run rampid against Minny's defense while their two best players are being guarded by defensive guru's (lets not forget the type of defender Dwight was just a couple years ago when healthy) is the deciding factor in this series. With a stretch for and a shooter at the wing opposite Gervin, Big O and the Iceman dominate this series.


I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Cooper only has one DPOY award. The DPOY award didn't start until 1982 so Bobby Jones never got a chance to win DPOY, or at least was at the end of his career. Jones doesn't have a chance to stop Gervin? You are vastly underrating Jones. Everyone knows how good Gervin was, but to say he doesn't have a chance/shot to stop him is a stretch. He would at least make him work every possession.

And Tmac and Shaq aren't eye candy. They have two of the most dominant peaks ever.



This is what I said about late game situations being circumstantial.

Yup. I didn't see this before I posted but it is near useless to discuss that because there are so many different outcomes that we can change after each others decisions.

For the record, if you play Gervin over Fisher our lineup would be Hornacek - TMac - Jones - Sikma - Shaq


Yeah, there's definitely some defensive tactics in here that KJ and Lucky missed. For one, putting T-Mac on Oscar is much better than putting Cousy on Oscar. And obviously staggering the minutes so you have Cousy with T-Mac less would be important imo. That's still a very weird backcourt though and if when Cousy and T-Mac are on the court together, if you're just using T-Mac as a 3 point shooter, that's a waste of his skills. So as you said, I'd definitely try to limit their minutes together.

We missed that, and that's a big blow. Not gonna lie. We weren't really both on to discuss it before we sent in the writeup but that's okay because we're both here now :)

And we're not wasting TMac's skills. I was simply saying that he can hit the three.

Lucky.
06-20-2013, 02:00 PM
Can we get a sticky up in here? :)

Chronz
06-20-2013, 02:01 PM
That's still a very weird backcourt though and if when Cousy and T-Mac are on the court together, if you're just using T-Mac as a 3 point shooter, that's a waste of his skills. So as you said, I'd definitely try to limit their minutes together.
I agree its not an optimal fit but playing Tmac off the ball doesn't mean hes relegated to a 3pt shooter (even though hes pretty decent when set).

Tmac has played with a wide variety of PG's (Bob Sura, Armstrong etc.), I was actually thinking of comparing Cousy to Rafer in how they were pass first PG's with great ball handling and that was an old Tmac who was far more ball reliant than he was in his youth.

Hes always been ball dominant no doubt, but he can share ball handling duties and work off screens more than you give him credit for. And the best way to get Tmac low post positioning is to have him set up camp and wait for the post entree pass. Tmac could score in a very diverse way, its not hard to imagine Cousy handling the ball waiting for Tmac to come off a pin down and pop that mid range J. You have options with Tmac off the ball outside of being just a kickout option.

The bigger problem comes in Cousy playing off the ball because you will want to make use of the isolation/post play of Shaq and Tmac. Cousy kind of inhibits that but with the spacing from his PF and SF, its not quite as bad.

The_Jamal
06-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Minny has been one of my favorite teams in the redraft. You could argue Shaq and Tmac having 2 of the greatest offensive peaks ever and they've surrounded them with some of the most dangerous 3pt shooters in NBA history (Peja, Hornacek). While Seattle certainly has advantages (Oscar, Gervin) it's not enough to overcome what I think is one of the better offensive teams in the redraft.

Chacarron
06-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Top 3 units:

1) Oscar - Coop - Gervin - Sheed - Dwight (will be used most of the game)

2)Oscar - Cooper - Majerle - Horace - Dwight (defensive purposes)

3a) Fish - Oscar - Coop - Sheed - Dwight (closing unit #1 - Fish heroics)

3b) Oscar - Coop - Gervin - Sheed - Dwight (closing unit #2 - we are up late in the game, play the halfcourt, seal the victory)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 02:41 PM
Can mods sticky this matchup? You can even unsticky one of the 1-8 blowouts if need be.

Sadds The Gr8
06-20-2013, 02:41 PM
I think PSK should un-sticky one of the 1v8 matchups since they're blowouts, and sticky this one since it's close.

Sadds The Gr8
06-20-2013, 02:42 PM
Can mods sticky this matchup? You can even unsticky one of the 1-8 blowouts if need be.
I think PSK should un-sticky one of the 1v8 matchups since they're blowouts, and sticky this one since it's close.

lol, like seconds apart

PatsSoxKnicks
06-20-2013, 02:42 PM
I think PSK should un-sticky one of the 1v8 matchups since they're blowouts, and sticky this one since it's close.

I can't....I'm not an NBA Forum mod lol

Chronz
06-20-2013, 03:01 PM
I know this is about having the players at their best, but I wonder if some teams wouldn't be better off with a slightly inferior version if it came with a much needed skillset. Thats when you start to overthink these simulation games but for the sake of conversation, hear me out.


In terms of the total package, Tmac was at his best in 2003. He honed his jumper and was still springy enough to attack with a low dribble stance, the ultimate nightmare. But in 2001, when he won MIP, he did so while playing with more of a frinetic pace. Less isolations, more cuts and quick dives to the rim, if you look at some of his highlights over the years you can kind of see what Im talking about. As Tmac aged he relied more and more on his jumper and wasn't quite as willing to bang bodies defensively (the days of anchoring the defense as a center were pretty much done by 02-03).

Watch this highlight reel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zITSuKiWSL8

Possession#1: Set shot off ball movement
#2: Quick screen in the paint finds Declerq instantly open on the duck in. (Imagine if thats Shaq)
#3: Establishes post position off the ball, gets the ball and quickly gos to work into his spin.
#4: Seems like Orlando runs duel downscreens, Tmac uses the threat of the catch and shoot to upfake a defender, get into the defense and find an open in between shot for an old Horace Grant who finishes.
#5: Transition offense (more active in his youth, this Tmac can run with Cousy)
#6: More screen action that gets Tmac open for a midrange J

The list can go on, and I know selective games arent the best scouting reports but Im telling you, Tmac was bouncier before the back problems really crept up (shocking). These were the days he was flying all over the court and finishing on top of centers regularly. He was a more aggressive slasher in these days, even though his jumper wasn't quite up to par.

I know Im overthinking it but Im sure this isnt the only scenario that a team would be better served playing with a different version of a player aside from his peak form.

NYKalltheway
06-20-2013, 05:27 PM
I was gonna vote for Minny but I don't get why Hornacek gets PG minutes and why Theus is getting PG minutes only...

Not a fan of Howard vs Shaq. Shaq will devour him. Could go 40 while D12 barely gets 12 ppg. Tmac's also unstoppable but I like Oscar and Gervin and they could potentially go 30 each.

I'm saying Seattle in 7. Minnesota is one of my top 5 rosters in this game but the management of this roster has been very bad.

Lucky.
06-20-2013, 05:35 PM
I was gonna vote for Minny but I don't get why Hornacek gets PG minutes and why Theus is getting PG minutes only...

Not a fan of Howard vs Shaq. Shaq will devour him. Could go 40 while D12 barely gets 12 ppg. Tmac's also unstoppable but I like Oscar and Gervin and they could potentially go 30 each.

I'm saying Seattle in 7. Minnesota is one of my top 5 rosters in this game but the management of this roster has been very bad.

Theus was more of a combo guard, could play both PG and SG. The idea of having Hornacek in the game is to have TMac be the primary ball handler, giving Hornacek the chance to play off the ball.

Chronz
06-20-2013, 05:46 PM
Theus was more of a combo guard, could play both PG and SG. The idea of having Hornacek in the game is to have TMac be the primary ball handler, giving Hornacek the chance to play off the ball.

I was gonna vote for Minny but I don't get why Hornacek gets PG minutes and why Theus is getting PG minutes only...
If I were them I would have replaced the minutes at that position with Tmac. Made it clearer that Tmac is going to be the defacto PG.

Killerjug
06-20-2013, 05:49 PM
Ya I suppose but still with T Mac and Hornacek in the game, should be assumed that T Mac will get ball handling duties

Baller1
06-20-2013, 06:12 PM
Head-to-head, Shaq never scored more than 27 on Dwight. I know that Shaq was starting to exit his prime when Dwight came into the league, but Dwight wasn't in his prime back in '04-'06 either.

Shaq will get his, and we've conceded that. But this perception that Dwight would get eaten alive by him is a false one... We're just two years removed from Dwight being BY FAR the most dominant defensive player in the league. Dwight would more than hold his own against a force like Shaq. Having a defender like Sheed next to him only helps the situation... Shaq would not dominate this series like many of you seem to think.

Meanwhile, Oscar will absolutely feast on Cousy every second they're on the court together. That's where Seattle wins the series.

Ebbs
06-20-2013, 07:47 PM
Seattle is really well put together. Both teams should've been higher seeds but seattle has playmaking, rebounding, defense at the wing and in the post. Post O, shooting. Just all around the pieces fit the best of any team in this redraft.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-21-2013, 12:00 AM
I just have a hard time with Cousy. Oscar would probably beast on Cousy more than Shaq on Dwight.

ztilzer31
06-21-2013, 04:43 AM
I really hate Seattle's team lol. Why do you guys get 2 of my favorite centers :(.

This'll be my first time rooting against a Seattle team :).

Chacarron
06-21-2013, 12:08 PM
Why do you hate Seattle? The players fit really well together as others have mentioned.

ztilzer31
06-21-2013, 03:10 PM
Why do you hate Seattle? The players fit really well together as others have mentioned.

Not saying they don't. Just like the players on the other team better, and I really don't like Dwight or Rasheed Wallace. Only really like Oscar on Seattle. Basically like everyone on Minny however lol.

greg_ory_2005
06-21-2013, 03:59 PM
I like the Shaq team. Both are really good teams though. Great job to you both.

Chacarron
06-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Can we get more votes here?

Chacarron
06-21-2013, 08:19 PM
Official count is 10-9 Minneapolis.

Chacarron
06-21-2013, 09:05 PM
Bump.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-22-2013, 12:34 AM
Why was this unstickied? Half an hour left in this close matchup

Lucky.
06-22-2013, 12:01 PM
Why was this unstickied? Half an hour left in this close matchup

That shouldn't have happened. At the time I think Chac was down by only one but after really had no chance because it was at the bottom.


Anyway, it sucked going up against you, Chac. You had one of my favorite teams, so to go against you in the first round...

Chacarron
06-22-2013, 01:04 PM
We didn't get any votes at all. Not getting stickied from the start hurt this matchups. Congrats to Minny. Thanks to those who didn't vote.