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Chronz
06-16-2013, 05:44 PM
Ive seen people reference Brons Finals stats as proof that he shrinks on the biggest stage, do you guys think there is something about the Finals that overburdens players or is it more about the competition in the Finals?

sunsfan88
06-16-2013, 05:46 PM
The stage of the Finals is only big because the competition level is very high.

I'm not sure I understand this thread.

ChitownBears22
06-16-2013, 05:47 PM
The stage of the Finals is only big because the competition level is very high.

I'm not sure I understand this thread.

This. This. This

TrueFan420
06-16-2013, 05:47 PM
It's both. Your playing against a top team on the biggest stage. That will effect your game. However, if your best player you should still have a massive impact in the games played.

PhillyFaninLA
06-16-2013, 05:49 PM
CAREER PLAYOFF AVERAGES

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
05-06 CLE 13 13 46.5 0.476 0.333 0.737 1.7 6.4 8.1 5.8 1.4 0.7 5.00 3.38 30.8
06-07 CLE 20 20 44.6 0.416 0.280 0.755 1.3 6.8 8.0 8.0 1.7 0.5 3.30 2.00 25.0
07-08 CLE 13 13 42.5 0.411 0.257 0.731 1.2 6.6 7.8 7.6 1.8 1.3 4.15 2.54 28.2
08-09 CLE 14 14 41.4 0.510 0.333 0.749 1.4 7.8 9.1 7.3 1.6 0.9 2.71 2.14 35.3
09-10 CLE 11 11 41.8 0.502 0.400 0.733 1.4 7.9 9.3 7.6 1.7 1.8 3.82 2.09 29.1
10-11 MIA 21 21 43.9 0.466 0.353 0.763 1.6 6.8 8.4 5.9 1.7 1.2 3.14 2.67 23.7
11-12 MIA 23 23 42.7 0.500 0.259 0.739 2.3 7.4 9.7 5.6 1.9 0.7 3.52 2.04 30.3
12-13 MIA 20 20 41.1 0.501 0.364 0.767 1.4 6.9 8.3 6.5 1.6 0.8 2.95 1.85 25.1
Career -- 135 135 43.1 0.473 0.319 0.747 1.6 7.0 8.6 6.7 1.7 0.9 3.49 2.30 28.0

SugeKnight
06-16-2013, 05:51 PM
CAREER PLAYOFF AVERAGES

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
05-06 CLE 13 13 46.5 0.476 0.333 0.737 1.7 6.4 8.1 5.8 1.4 0.7 5.00 3.38 30.8
06-07 CLE 20 20 44.6 0.416 0.280 0.755 1.3 6.8 8.0 8.0 1.7 0.5 3.30 2.00 25.0
07-08 CLE 13 13 42.5 0.411 0.257 0.731 1.2 6.6 7.8 7.6 1.8 1.3 4.15 2.54 28.2
08-09 CLE 14 14 41.4 0.510 0.333 0.749 1.4 7.8 9.1 7.3 1.6 0.9 2.71 2.14 35.3
09-10 CLE 11 11 41.8 0.502 0.400 0.733 1.4 7.9 9.3 7.6 1.7 1.8 3.82 2.09 29.1
10-11 MIA 21 21 43.9 0.466 0.353 0.763 1.6 6.8 8.4 5.9 1.7 1.2 3.14 2.67 23.7
11-12 MIA 23 23 42.7 0.500 0.259 0.739 2.3 7.4 9.7 5.6 1.9 0.7 3.52 2.04 30.3
12-13 MIA 20 20 41.1 0.501 0.364 0.767 1.4 6.9 8.3 6.5 1.6 0.8 2.95 1.85 25.1
Career -- 135 135 43.1 0.473 0.319 0.747 1.6 7.0 8.6 6.7 1.7 0.9 3.49 2.30 28.0

Thank you for posting this lovely block of numbers

PhillyFaninLA
06-16-2013, 05:53 PM
Lebron Regular Season

Career -- 765 764 39.7 0.490 0.337 0.747 1.2 6.0 7.3 6.9 1.7 0.8 3.30 1.88 27.6

Lebron Playoffs

Career -- 135 135 43.1 0.473 0.319 0.747 1.6 7.0 8.6 6.7 1.7 0.9 3.49 2.30 28.0

More points per game in the playoffs and more rebounds, assists almost the same, steals exactly the same, blocks slightly higher, turnovers higher in playoffs.....seems likely he is a very similiar player career wise in the playoffs and if you watch him game in and game out in the playoffs the eye test tells you he's virtually the same player.


I want to add Kobe and Jordan have had a few bad finals games in there careers as well....its part of the game

PhillyFaninLA
06-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Thank you for posting this lovely block of numbers

Your welcome

PhillyFaninLA
06-16-2013, 05:54 PM
dup post

Chronz
06-16-2013, 06:27 PM
The stage of the Finals is only big because the competition level is very high.

I'm not sure I understand this thread.
Not necessarily, Ive seen people discount Finals performances because of (allegedly) inferior comp. Just the same Ive seen arguments for players who didn't do enough despite the advantage. When those situations arise, people tend to blame the pressure of the biggest stage rather than the adversary.

The point of this thread is to see where you stand on players struggling at this stage. What is the root cause for you?

D-Leethal
06-16-2013, 06:48 PM
When you put up monster numbers against better defenses in earlier rounds and your production plummets against inferior defenses once your on the main stage, I have a hard time giving all the credit to the competition.

Chronz
06-16-2013, 06:49 PM
When you put up monster numbers against better defenses in earlier rounds and your production plummets against inferior defenses once your on the main stage, I have a hard time giving all the credit to the competition.

If it is about the stage, I would agree that these situations are when it comes into question.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2013, 06:55 PM
there can be a lot of different root causes, it goes player by player. For instance, if a coach uses his player way too much in the regular season, and that player is asked to carry a burden that almost no man can handle, he will eventually wear down. The timing may come at the worst spot, the NBA finals.

A player can put too much pressure on himself, and overthink. A player might be facing a team that didn't appear to be as good during the regular season, but presents a nightmare matchup for the clearly superior team. Think GS-Dallas for instance, or even the past series, Indy-Miami.

I think it depends on the player. Which is why I think it is so important for a coach to manage his players on elite teams, knowing those 25 games in the playoffs are equivalent to 50 regular season games when you factor in the play being at a higher intensity, skill, and effort level.

Lastly, some players don't have the mental toughness that others do. That can never be changed.

D-Leethal
06-16-2013, 07:03 PM
I think its obviously an undefinable mix of both. There has to be certain prerequisites to cause matchup problems for the other team. In the case of Miami, true 7 foot defensive anchors causes a lot of matchup problems for them over the years. You saw Chandler give them fits in 2011, Hibbert this year, Duncan, Noah and even KG to an extent. I think you need this sort of matchup advantage as a prerequisite to give LeBron, Wade and Miami any sort of problems in a playoff series.

You saw LeBron dominate slow footed Perkins who couldn't deal with the speed of Miami on the biggest stage too so I don't think its only a stage thing. But LeBron can dominate any defense at any time, he's monster games against better defenses in earlier rounds, better anchors that cause more matchup problems for them, so when you take out top ranked D's with top notch D anchors and than all of a sudden your production falls into the gutter against inferior defenses you gotta start thinking about the mental psyche being broken because simple logic would point to it being more than just the competition.

bholly
06-16-2013, 09:19 PM
I'm sure the nerves and the circus and whatever other effects the 'stage' has can play a role, but there are way too many non-'stage' variables and way too small of a sample size to ever really credit a bad game or series to any particular cause with any confidence. Anytime I see someone put any struggles down to 'the stage', all I take out of it is that that person doesn't know what they're talking about.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-17-2013, 10:16 AM
I think its obviously an undefinable mix of both. There has to be certain prerequisites to cause matchup problems for the other team. In the case of Miami, true 7 foot defensive anchors causes a lot of matchup problems for them over the years. You saw Chandler give them fits in 2011, Hibbert this year, Duncan, Noah and even KG to an extent. I think you need this sort of matchup advantage as a prerequisite to give LeBron, Wade and Miami any sort of problems in a playoff series.

You saw LeBron dominate slow footed Perkins who couldn't deal with the speed of Miami on the biggest stage too so I don't think its only a stage thing. But LeBron can dominate any defense at any time, he's monster games against better defenses in earlier rounds, better anchors that cause more matchup problems for them, so when you take out top ranked D's with top notch D anchors and than all of a sudden your production falls into the gutter against inferior defenses you gotta start thinking about the mental psyche being broken because simple logic would point to it being more than just the competition.
I think it may be more than just defendive ratings. Yes the Pacers had the better defense but the Spurs are the better team. Lebron has to work very hard on the defensive end to try to stop the Spurs high powered offense. They didn't play one team with a combination of offense and defense like this and that takes away from your offensive game when you're not just worried about one side of the court.

ewing
06-17-2013, 10:19 AM
I think it a combination of LeBron being a little worn down (i don't think he is the same finisher right now), the Spurs game plan, and LeBron being scared to shoot a jump shot.

3RDASYSTEM
06-17-2013, 10:53 AM
Ive seen people reference Brons Finals stats as proof that he shrinks on the biggest stage, do you guys think there is something about the Finals that overburdens players or is it more about the competition in the Finals?

This what makes it rigged already

its on the biggest 'stage'

that's a fraud word so it fits hand in hand

its more behind the scenes like DANNY GREEN said earlier when speaking on LEBRON's struggles

its behind the scenes type **** that we wont hear about until LEBRON retires or yrs later down the line, LEBRON is turning into the modern day WILT, he is basically IVERSON with 3 more MVP's and 1 ring, you see that tats/headband/arm sleeve right?

LEBRON's body language pretty much tells me in FINALS game to game if he will either play like for real BRON or STERN staged BRON

just look at how LEBRON missed that early alley oop and didn't even show any emotion to himself or nothing on the court, purely staged

Sly Guy
06-17-2013, 11:16 AM
comments on Lebron's performance notwithstanding, I blame the stage. The conference finals can sometimes be of even higher level competition, so I'm more inclined to reason it's the stage and not the competition. Unless of course, there is a specifically tough matchup for said player/team.

D-Leethal
06-17-2013, 11:21 AM
This what makes it rigged already

its on the biggest 'stage'

that's a fraud word so it fits hand in hand

its more behind the scenes like DANNY GREEN said earlier when speaking on LEBRON's struggles

its behind the scenes type **** that we wont hear about until LEBRON retires or yrs later down the line, LEBRON is turning into the modern day WILT, he is basically IVERSON with 3 more MVP's and 1 ring, you see that tats/headband/arm sleeve right?

LEBRON's body language pretty much tells me in FINALS game to game if he will either play like for real BRON or STERN staged BRON

just look at how LEBRON missed that early alley oop and didn't even show any emotion to himself or nothing on the court, purely staged

LOL, so now LeBron is in on it too? Please connect the dots and explain how that makes any sense my friend.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-17-2013, 11:51 AM
Lebrons FG% last 3 finals:
2011: 44%
2012: 47%
2013: 44%

Lebrons FG% last 3 Regular Seasons:
2011: 51%
2012: 53%
2013: 56%

Rest of the playoffs his numbers are all on par with regular season, but his finals numbers dip a bit on the big stage. Just showing FG% here because too lazy to dig up all stats.

BigCityofDreams
06-17-2013, 12:13 PM
LOL, so now LeBron is in on it too? Please connect the dots and explain how that makes any sense my friend.

Check my sig lol

JordansBulls
06-17-2013, 12:25 PM
I think it may be more than just defendive ratings. Yes the Pacers had the better defense but the Spurs are the better team. Lebron has to work very hard on the defensive end to try to stop the Spurs high powered offense. They didn't play one team with a combination of offense and defense like this and that takes away from your offensive game when you're not just worried about one side of the court.

Also Lebron does quite well against teams that win 50 games or fewer while he has HCA. He is 13-0 against teams that won fewer than 50 games while he has HCA. But is only 1-3 against teams that have won 50+ games in series with HCA.

Heediot
06-17-2013, 03:31 PM
Like hawk said it depends on the individual, some may lean toward one aspect more than another.

bholly
06-17-2013, 06:14 PM
Lebrons FG% last 3 finals:
2011: 44%
2012: 47%
2013: 44%

Lebrons FG% last 3 Regular Seasons:
2011: 51%
2012: 53%
2013: 56%

Rest of the playoffs his numbers are all on par with regular season, but his finals numbers dip a bit on the big stage. Just showing FG% here because too lazy to dig up all stats.

The point is not whether he struggles, it's whether it's because it's the finals or some other factor - and by ignoring every other factor you don't show anything.

For example:

LBJ 2010-11 regular season vs Dallas: 31%
LBJ 2011-12 regular season vs OKC: 47%

So was it the stage those years, or could it have been the competition, or could it have been a multitude of other things?
The sample sizes are too small to draw anything meaningful from this type of data. That's the point.

RaiderLakersA's
06-17-2013, 06:39 PM
It's the stage.

Everything is magnified and the pressure really throws some players off of their game. That's why when you see some of the greatest players falter, they usually try to collect themselves by focusing on the basic things: rebound, make an assist, get to the line, forego the 18 footer and try to get a layup. Just doing the simple things gets them back on track and shifts them into the mindset that it is just another game.

tredigs
06-17-2013, 08:03 PM
San Antonio began their defensive strategy by asking a 41%+ 3pt shooter to take as many fully uncontested 3's as he pleased. Lebron did not want to do that, and when he is taking them, it's generally not pretty.

We can start there.

LAKobeBryant
06-17-2013, 08:10 PM
its pressure, biggest moment in basketball