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ManRam
06-14-2013, 11:26 AM
Judge the following play for me. I'm sure it was discussed in the IGT, but I wasn't around.

I think this is an example of a play where a differing of opinions comes.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18qqxnwz4xwfigif/ku-medium.gif


What do you think the result of this play should be? A foul on Manu? A no-call?

Less (or more) importantly, do you call the response Battier made here to a clear foul like this 1. a flop 2. an embellishment or 3. nothing at all?

More generally, is an embellishment to a clear foul a "flop" or just merely a harmless embellishment?



It seems people are super eager to label everything and anything a flop and are willing to dismiss obvious fouls and not obvious fouls when a player embellishes. I think this was the play Steve Javie chimed in on, and JVG disagreed with him. I personally agree with Javie here, and it has always been my stance; a flop after a foul shouldn't negate the foul. A foul is still a foul regardless of how a player reacts. That's my opinion at least.



Now this is a flop and not a foul...we can all agree on that.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18qqzpcwnw7mxgif/ku-medium.gif

SteBO
06-14-2013, 11:34 AM
Flopping to me as an overexaggeration to contact to try and guarantee the benefit of the whistle, which is what Battier did do there. It's a flop, but that doesn't mean Ginobli didn't initiate the contact and bull through the screen; it was a foul. As JVG said, Battier made Ginobli seem stronger than he really is....

Bosh clearly flopped on the play below, and I'd be surprised if Bosh doesn't recieve a fine or something for it. Duncan had his hand on Bosh's side, but there was no extension of the arm. Bad call on Duncan there.

Max.This
06-14-2013, 11:35 AM
Should be a foul on Manu and a flop fine for Battier. Its a joke that Miami outflopped the Spurs, but not really cause they flop all the time.

kdspurman
06-14-2013, 11:35 AM
I agree with the foul call for Battier, but he still was a little dramatic with his fall which should warrant a fine.

Javie also said it was the right call for Bosh. I don't know if he'd admit something was a flop as it would make the officials look like they missed something obvious, but Bosh's was clearly a flop.

It was brought up in the GT, but now with Javie justifying some of these calls, it's likely neither will get fined since he basically said they were good calls.

D-Leethal
06-14-2013, 11:41 AM
Judge the following play for me. I'm sure it was discussed in the IGT, but I wasn't around.

I think this is an example of a play where a differing of opinions comes.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18qqxnwz4xwfigif/ku-medium.gif


What do you think the result of this play should be? A foul on Manu? A no-call?

Less (or more) importantly, do you call the response Battier made here to a clear foul like this 1. a flop 2. an embellishment or 3. nothing at all?

More generally, is an embellishment to a clear foul a "flop" or just merely a harmless embellishment?



It seems people are super eager to label everything and anything a flop and are willing to dismiss obvious fouls and not obvious fouls when a player embellishes. I think this was the play Steve Javie chimed in on, and JVG disagreed with him. I personally agree with Javie here, and it has always been my stance; a flop after a foul shouldn't negate the foul. A foul is still a foul regardless of how a player reacts. That's my opinion at least.



Now this is a flop and not a foul...we can all agree on that.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18qqzpcwnw7mxgif/ku-medium.gif

Those GIFs are perfect. I have been trying to hammer home the difference between those two flops for months on this board. #2 is prime Miami Heat flop, those are the disgraceful flops that nobody has patience for. And yes, those are the flops LeBron is famous for (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31i63NbpcBc&feature=player_embedded) more than flop #1. Flop #1 is a legit basketball play, its an embellishment but its not disgraceful like flop #2. Flop #2 are the flops that rarely existed 10 years ago. Flop #1 has been around for ages. Flop #2 is the type of flopping that Miami and LAC have mastered (Miami has cleaned it up as the playoffs has went on and its clear the fine on LBJ encouraged him to stop that nonsense).

Its the flops where you brush shoulders with a guy and he goes flying like he got hit by a macktruck, its not the flops where you take a charge to the chest and fall to sell it, or take a bump on a drive and throw your shoulder out Paul Pierce style for an and 1. Its the oscar award winning **** you see from Bosh right there. That **** has no place in the game.

JC_
06-14-2013, 11:54 AM
Bosh definately flopped but the foul was called because of how Duncan positioned himself which kept Bosh from making a play on the ball. Duncan was fighting for post position before Neal drove and I'm sure to the ref's it ended up looking like he was holding Bosh back so that Neal could get an easy layup. League can fine him if they want but I'm pretty sure it's still a foul.

Delrayhc
06-14-2013, 11:58 AM
Both were fouls. Both were embellished , Bosh was closer to flopping.

ManRam
06-14-2013, 12:04 PM
Should be a foul on Manu and a flop fine for Battier. Its a joke that Miami outflopped the Spurs, but not really cause they flop all the time.

See, I don't think that's a fine on Battier :shrug: I think when you start fining for that you're entering some really iffy territory. It'll start a very slippery slope.


I'm probably in the minority, but I'm not outraged by the Battier stuff. That's happened forever; if you think that's some new "soft NBA" stuff, well, you're greatly confused. It's selling a foul. Is it disingenuous and intentionally deceiving? Maybe...but the foul was committed, so I don't think selling it is something I can convince myself to get all up in arms about. If it helps get the right call called, so be it.


I think part of the reason why I might think differently here than most is because of Dwight. I got so used to Dwight NEVER embellishing anything. He'd get hit harder than anyone in the league, but because he'd take it like a champ he wouldn't get the calls. I always wanted him to make it more clear when he was fouled. Maybe it was a fear of the FT line, because we know Dwight isn't some moral powerhouse, but he NEVER embellished. And honestly, that bothered me.

Sadds The Gr8
06-14-2013, 12:09 PM
that's a flop. There's a hesitation when he steps back with his left foot then he decided to fall. It'd be hard to see in real time but if the league reviews it and slo-mo's that clip, so easy to tell it's a flop. Maybe if he didn't fall he wouldn't get fined, but I think he's surely gonna get it.

Slug3
06-14-2013, 12:17 PM
I don't think Battier would be fined as it was a clear foul as he flopped to sell it more. I thought Bosh was for sure going to get a fine till Javie came and and explained it was a foul on the body contact. Once he said that I still thought it was a flop but wondered how the NBA could hire this guy to give opinions and he says it was a foul but the NBA come back an fine Bosh.

pad1
06-14-2013, 12:19 PM
Bosh definately flopped but the foul was called because of how Duncan positioned himself which kept Bosh from making a play on the ball. Duncan was fighting for post position before Neal drove and I'm sure to the ref's it ended up looking like he was holding Bosh back so that Neal could get an easy layup. League can fine him if they want but I'm pretty sure it's still a foul.

He was boxing Bosh out to get an over the shoulder feed, not to help Neal get to the lane. Not a foul

nycericanguy
06-14-2013, 12:22 PM
That's not a fine or flop on Battier... I have no problem with players selling calls like that... he legitimately got hit...

What I do have a problem with is guys like Bosh flopping around like guppies when they barely got touched... plays like that should result in suspensions after the 3rd time.

D-Leethal
06-14-2013, 12:30 PM
That's not a fine or flop on Battier... I have no problem with players selling calls like that... he legitimately got hit...

What I do have a problem with is guys like Bosh flopping around like guppies when they barely got touched... plays like that should result in suspensions after the 3rd time.

Agreed. There is a marked difference between the two.

Green_Monster
06-14-2013, 12:33 PM
Battier got fouled, and just sold the call. I don't see much wrong with that. A foul is a foul.

What Bosh did is definitely a flop and is not basketball.

Minimal
06-14-2013, 12:33 PM
That's not a fine or flop on Battier... I have no problem with players selling calls like that... he legitimately got hit...

What I do have a problem with is guys like Bosh flopping around like guppies when they barely got touched... plays like that should result in suspensions after the 3rd time.
This.

Battier simply sold the call, but it was pathetic seeing Bosh flop like that. Nothing you can do. Unless NBA starts fining star players by a reasonable fine for such clear flops, lets say 100000 dollars, they will continue to flop.

bal_ravens
06-14-2013, 12:55 PM
Yeah I think Battier just sold the call. If Manu didn't have his arm extended when they didn't make contact anymore, it would have looked closer. But I see no harm in what Battier did there/

JC_
06-14-2013, 12:56 PM
He was boxing Bosh out to get an over the shoulder feed, not to help Neal get to the lane. Not a foul

Why he was doing it doesn't really matter, the fact is Neal drove while Duncan was fighting for position makes it a foul. If Duncan just stood there and made a legal screen it would have been a great play.

29$JerZ
06-14-2013, 01:04 PM
Exaggeration of contact to trick the ref into calling a favorable decision that otherwise wouldn't be called.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-14-2013, 01:08 PM
Both were fouls. Both were embellished , Bosh was closer to flopping.

Heat homers are to much.

OceanSpray
06-14-2013, 01:49 PM
Why do people think it's a flop every time a Heat player falls down? Battier got pushed and fell, what's wrong with that? It's easy for someone watching the game to call it a flop when you don't actually feel the contact. As for Bosh, it was a flop but Duncan would've been called regardless because of that screen on Wade.

OceanSpray
06-14-2013, 01:50 PM
Let's not forget Manu/TP flopping.. So what if Miami flops? If you guys do it, and Miami does it better, why complain?

ManRam
06-14-2013, 01:58 PM
Why do people think it's a flop every time a Heat player falls down?

This is really the crux of my problem. People are so inconsistent with it. When certain players (not necessarily Heat ones...people have biases against other teams too) get shoved and fall down many people here will scream "FLOP!". Yet at the same time they turn a shoulder to just about anything else. I don't know why I keep worrying about stuff like that...I'm certainly aware that much of PSD is incapable of thinking objectively.


But I do think people are too eager at times to call anything and everything a "flop". They're too liberal with the usage of that word. That's why I bring this up...and that's what annoys me.

OceanSpray
06-14-2013, 01:59 PM
This is really the crux of my problem. People are so inconsistent with it. When certain players (not necessarily Heat ones...people have biases against other teams too) get shoved and fall down many people here will scream "FLOP!". Yet at the same time they turn a shoulder to just about anything else. I don't know why I keep worrying about stuff like that...I'm certainly aware that much of PSD is incapable of thinking objectively.


But I do think people are too eager at times to call anything and everything a "flop". They're too liberal with the usage of that word. That's why I bring this up...and that's what annoys me.

Most of them are part of that small conspiracy group that thinks NBA is fixed with a destined winner.

Randy West
06-14-2013, 02:02 PM
If you watch the NBA just look for guys wearing a uniform that says HEAT across the front of it. It shouldn't take long before you see what it is you are looking for.

MassoDio
06-14-2013, 02:17 PM
Battier embellished a foul. The contact that was made on the foul, and the subsequent reaction from Battier was reasonable, regardless of whether or not he needed to fall, there was force there, and Battier was simply making sure that the ref saw it. I don't have a problem with that. It has been going on for several decades.

Bosh flopped. Plain and simple. There is no physical way that he should have fallen the way that he did, from the contact that occurred. And the question is not whether or not it was a foul to begin with. Duncan was fighting for position. Most likely to either catch an over the should pass, or because he thought Neal was going to shoot and he was boxing out. Either way, whatever Duncan was trying to do, the fact that Neal drove to the basket, made it a moving screen through no fault of Duncan's. That foul on Duncan was caused by Neal. But it was a foul.

That being said, Bosh should be fined. There is no reason for that type of play in basketball.

jerellh528
06-14-2013, 02:25 PM
Battiers was still a flop, but I can live with it since he was actually getting bulled by manu. Bosh's was disgusting and should be fined.

ManRam
06-14-2013, 04:06 PM
If you watch the NBA just look for guys wearing a uniform that says HEAT across the front of it. It shouldn't take long before you see what it is you are looking for.

Proving my point! Thanks!

ChitownBears22
06-14-2013, 04:14 PM
Flopping: A basketball maneuver every player has used to gain an advantage over an opposing player.

It has always been used. No one would even say anything about it if slow-motion replay didn't exist. If you slow anything down to 1fps it will look bad. Most of the time I don't even think players are trying to sell a call, I think they know contact is coming and they fall to avoid contact, yet still get the call, to protect themselves.

kdspurman
06-14-2013, 04:17 PM
Bosh was rightfully fined for his flop last night.

topdog
06-14-2013, 06:11 PM
Had Ginobli not extended the arm, I'd like to see that as a no-call. As it stands, it was a foul with exageration of the contact. I would like to see this sort of "embellishment" done away with - I don't like players "helping" the refs make calls.

They need to step up punishment on blatant flopping (such as suspensions) if they can get it through the players union and use the fine system for the over-embellishment of actual fouls.

ChitownBears22
06-14-2013, 06:13 PM
Had Ginobli not extended the arm, I'd like to see that as a no-call. As it stands, it was a foul with exageration of the contact. I would like to see this sort of "embellishment" done away with - I don't like players "helping" the refs make calls.

They need to step up punishment on blatant flopping (such as suspensions) if they can get it through the players union and use the fine system for the over-embellishment of actual fouls.

You want to suspend players for flopping? On what ground? Most "flopping" happens on plays when there really is a foul, players exhagerate to make sure the opponent is called. Should we start fining players who foul and get away with it?

nycericanguy
06-14-2013, 06:18 PM
And how ironic was it when Lebron was accusing Neal of flopping?...lol

Didn't Lebron himself say he'll flop and do anything he can to gain an advantage?

ChitownBears22
06-14-2013, 06:22 PM
And how ironic was it when Lebron was accusing Neal of flopping?...lol

Didn't Lebron himself say he'll flop and do anything he can to gain an advantage?

So he should just not say anything? He is still trying to win, of course you complain.

topdog
06-14-2013, 06:27 PM
You want to suspend players for flopping? On what ground? Most "flopping" happens on plays when there really is a foul, players exhagerate to make sure the opponent is called. Should we start fining players who foul and get away with it?

Again, it comes back to how you define flopping. I would suspend players on the grounds that they deceive the referee into making a call that unfairly penalizes the opponent and negatively impacts the outcome of the game. Flopping as I would define it, is the act of exagerrating minimal (no-call) or no contact in order to draw a foul as if acted upon by an invisible force. Embellishment is falling or flailing arms on an actual foul.

Whatever else is happening around the Bosh-Duncan play, the fact is that Bosh acted like he got shot when Duncan barely had contact with him. In fact, I would say the "gun shot" reaction is 99.9% of the time an indicator of flopping.

OceanSpray
06-14-2013, 07:38 PM
Again, it comes back to how you define flopping. I would suspend players on the grounds that they deceive the referee into making a call that unfairly penalizes the opponent and negatively impacts the outcome of the game. Flopping as I would define it, is the act of exagerrating minimal (no-call) or no contact in order to draw a foul as if acted upon by an invisible force. Embellishment is falling or flailing arms on an actual foul.

Whatever else is happening around the Bosh-Duncan play, the fact is that Bosh acted like he got shot when Duncan barely had contact with him. In fact, I would say the "gun shot" reaction is 99.9% of the time an indicator of flopping.

Doesn't matter. Duncan was setting a moving pick and refs didn't have to look at Bosh's flop. As for them getting suspended, that's a joke. There are plays that aren't flops but do look like them. Should a player be suspended because someone thought he was flopping?

topdog
06-14-2013, 10:00 PM
Doesn't matter. Duncan was setting a moving pick and refs didn't have to look at Bosh's flop. As for them getting suspended, that's a joke. There are plays that aren't flops but do look like them. Should a player be suspended because someone thought he was flopping?

How does it not matter that Bosh fraudulented contact in a manner that disgraces the sport? He flopped regardless, and because he did it we can't know for sure that he didn't elicit the call by the act.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE READ?!

Understand that there is a difference between flops that imagine contact and embellishment that over-emphasizes foul-level contact. There need to be harsher consequences for these intentional acts of Hollywood theatrics if they are ever going to stop. Too many times the momentum of an opposing team has been squashed by some jelly legs and a head thrown back and all it costs the offender is $5,000 tops.

IDunknown
06-14-2013, 11:19 PM
Had Ginobli not extended the arm, I'd like to see that as a no-call. As it stands, it was a foul with exageration of the contact. I would like to see this sort of "embellishment" done away with - I don't like players "helping" the refs make calls.

They need to step up punishment on blatant flopping (such as suspensions) if they can get it through the players union and use the fine system for the over-embellishment of actual fouls.

I do agree with you, but I think it's worse when a player creates a call that was never there.(oh no,i don't agree with the suspensions part)

IDunknown
06-14-2013, 11:27 PM
Doesn't matter. Duncan was setting a moving pick and refs didn't have to look at Bosh's flop. As for them getting suspended, that's a joke. There are plays that aren't flops but do look like them. Should a player be suspended because someone thought he was flopping?

That wasn't a moving pick. They were fighting for position in the post.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2013, 11:28 PM
Over exaggerate contact.

OceanSpray
06-15-2013, 02:17 AM
That wasn't a moving pick. They were fighting for position in the post.

What? Watch the play again. Duncan moves and blocks Wade/Bosh. Doesn't matter how you see it.

OceanSpray
06-15-2013, 02:18 AM
How does it not matter that Bosh fraudulented contact in a manner that disgraces the sport? He flopped regardless, and because he did it we can't know for sure that he didn't elicit the call by the act.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE READ?!

Understand that there is a difference between flops that imagine contact and embellishment that over-emphasizes foul-level contact. There need to be harsher consequences for these intentional acts of Hollywood theatrics if they are ever going to stop. Too many times the momentum of an opposing team has been squashed by some jelly legs and a head thrown back and all it costs the offender is $5,000 tops.

Doesn't matter because everyone in the NBA does it and that's not what they even called it against. It wasn't a foul on Duncan but rather a moving pick against him.. Not sure why you're complaining when Bosh's flopping wasn't even part of the equation.

JC_
06-15-2013, 02:25 AM
..He flopped regardless, and because he did it we can't know for sure that he didn't elicit the call by the act.




It was an easy foul call regardless. Refs really need to be better than they are in 90% of games. They are so inconsistent that selling contact becomes an enticing thing for a player to do.

RiceOnTheRun
06-15-2013, 03:03 AM
A flop is trying to get a foul out of nothing. Definitely agree with Javie here, if they're gonna foul you, nothing wrong with getting the ref to notice and call it. A lot of what people call Lebron out on is when he's driving to the rim, and gets the contact, he over exaggerates the shooting motion. I disagree because it should be called a foul, there was contact and regardless, he should get those free throws.

The second one, I agree, wtf. Exaggerating contact is one thing, but trying to fabricate it should be called out. In my opinion, the NBA should just have the player start off with a foul the next game in the playoffs to go along with a 25k fine.

king4day
06-15-2013, 11:22 AM
Battier wasn't a flop in the OP's example. Manu's arm extended anyway.
Bosh is the definition of "I always wanted to be an actor but my teacher in highschool said I wasn't good enough for some reason."

topdog
06-15-2013, 02:47 PM
Doesn't matter because everyone in the NBA does it and that's not what they even called it against. It wasn't a foul on Duncan but rather a moving pick against him.. Not sure why you're complaining when Bosh's flopping wasn't even part of the equation.

So, if every player takes 3 steps and it's not called, I'm not supposed to care as well? That's the whole "if everyone jumped off a bridge..." logic.

A moving screen is a foul...

My distaste for flopping is not limited to those that draw fouls. That's like saying "why arrest the guy, he didn't get away with any money" of an attempted robbery. Below are two examples of no calls which, if called, would have erased 2 points for the Spurs at a critical juncture and I beleive put the Lakers over the limit again at a critical juncture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdyuothYhvU