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ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 12:49 PM
Does this guarantee Lebron will never pass Duncan on the all time players list? Is it possible for Lebron to make the top 5 all time being 1-3 in the finals?

As of now, Lebron is repeating his 2011 finals. IMO, he needs to step it up big time in the next 4 games or his legacy will take a huge hit.


Discuss!

Goose17
06-12-2013, 12:51 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

abe_froman
06-12-2013, 12:53 PM
depends on who's making the list ,some already have him above duncan and set in stone.for me it would though,and its not just the series loss but how he's played so passively this series

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 12:54 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

Slow down there son. We all know championships are a team accomplishment, but Lebron has played terrible in this series so far. So a lot of blame will fall on his shoulders. Did you read the Title Jr? It say "IF" dude.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 12:55 PM
depends on who's making the list ,some already have him above duncan and set in stone.for me it would though,and its not just the series loss but how he's played so passively this series

:confused: Duncan is ranked in the top 7 on PSD. Who has Lebron in the top 7?

abe_froman
06-12-2013, 01:00 PM
:confused: Duncan is ranked in the top 7 on PSD. Who has Lebron in the top 7?
some people do ,i've seen some people who rank him number 1(though thats a minority).a psd ranking is an average of many voices.but there is a small minority that do

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 01:02 PM
Does this guarantee Lebron will never pass Duncan on the all time players list? Is it possible for Lebron to make the top 5 all time being 1-3 in the finals?

As of now, Lebron is repeating his 2011 finals. IMO, he needs to step it up big time in the next 4 games or his legacy will take a huge hit.


Discuss!

Go watch tennis... Why do you think basketball is a 1v1 sport?

Goose17
06-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Slow down there son. We all know championships are a team accomplishment, but Lebron has played terrible in this series so far. So a lot of blame will fall on his shoulders. Did you read the Title Jr? It say "IF" dude.

John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.

sammyvine
06-12-2013, 01:05 PM
John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.

those players are never listed in the top 10 players of all time BECAUSE THEY NEVER WON A RING.
Lebron has a ring so that obviously doesnt mean him, but he wont be a top 10 player with just 1 ring. he will just be another great player that won a ring like Dirk and Oscar.

Like you said he may win many rings, being 1/4 in finals appearances isnt good for such a talented player.

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 01:07 PM
Slow down there son. We all know championships are a team accomplishment, but Lebron has played terrible in this series so far. So a lot of blame will fall on his shoulders. Did you read the Title Jr? It say "IF" dude.

Uh no he didn't. Maybe if you watched the game you'd understand more than just looking up stats...

Yes he hasn't scored well but he's played excellent defense all series long... He got hot when it counted in game 2, and he's done a phenomenal job at distributing the basketball..

Game 3 was the only game you could say Lebron had a bad game. Sure he's not scoring as much, but he played great in game 1 and 2...

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and once again you sound like you don't watch basketball. Just Kobe in the shower.

PhillyFaninLA
06-12-2013, 01:08 PM
John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.

I highly recommend not argueing with Illusionist this person is someone that has never acccepted a contrary view or that they might be wrong or that someone can disagree...its not a fight worth having

Goose17
06-12-2013, 01:09 PM
I highly recommend not argueing with Illusionist this person is someone that has never acccepted a contrary view or that they might be wrong or that someone can disagree...its not a fight worth having

Haha, fair enough. Came across that before. In that case, I'm out.

Goose17
06-12-2013, 01:09 PM
double post.... my bad.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:10 PM
Go watch tennis... Why do you think basketball is a 1v1 sport?Lebron is not playing well...


John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.

What a god awful post. So lets just leave out the two championship series he's lost(possibly 3) and consider how he's going to run off 6 magical rings in a row after this year:facepalm:

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:13 PM
Uh no he didn't. Maybe if you watched the game you'd understand more than just looking up stats...

Yes he hasn't scored well but he's played excellent defense all series long... He got hot when it counted in game 2, and he's done a phenomenal job at distributing the basketball..

Game 3 was the only game you could say Lebron had a bad game. Sure he's not scoring as much, but he played great in game 1 and 2...

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and once again you sound like you don't watch basketball. Just Kobe in the shower.

His defense has not been that good, sorry dude. Lebron got hot when it counted in game 2????? He scored 6 points after this team went up by twenty, what in gods name are you talking about! Lebron has played terrible and some Heat fans on here have fully agreed with me. So stop being a homer.

abe_froman
06-12-2013, 01:15 PM
John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.
but it did hurt their legacy ,its why they've never been mentioned in the top 10(and even outside top 15/20 for many of them that you listed).while its a team sport ,the game is designed for a single individual to have the greatest impact of any of the team sports and thats why rings are weighted as they are in the rankings of players

shep33
06-12-2013, 01:15 PM
I look at it more as of a team failure in all truth.

BALLER R
06-12-2013, 01:16 PM
Keep playing like this and it's going to tarnish his legacy. People will say he was great but always fold under pressure that one championship came in a lockout year. He needs at least 3 rings to be top 3 of all times. Great players come through in the finals when it matters the most.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:18 PM
I look at it more as of a team failure in all truth.

I agree to an extent, but how can this not be a negative impact on Lebrons legacy if they lose and his stats are Non Lebron like?

RLundi
06-12-2013, 01:22 PM
There will have to be changes. My guess is Spo will go. The Heat are still incredibly talented but up to this point they've just relied on talent and defense to win. Dallas and now San Antonio, and even Boston and Indiana proved that team-oriented and pass-heavy offenses featuring big men are formidable opponents and the key to taking them down. Spo needs to tweak his offensive schemes so that zone defenses and collapses on LeBron don't doom them.

Side note: who knew Wade would decline this much in such a short period of time? Bosh looks bad too. Idk if these are because of Spo or the Spurs defensive scheme but the Heat look awful this series.

EDIT: should've read the OP. I hate to use the comparison because it's so overused but considering who the OP is, it's relevant: Kobe has lost twice in the Finals, I don't think that's hurt his INDIVIDUAL legacy. If he doesn't win another or fails in the Finals, I don't think anything changes.

Same with Bron. Yes it doesn't look good, but this is a TEAM game and not golf. I don't think it affects him that much. He already is in that elite company that has at least one ring. From there on out, most people to look at how many more rings you do win, not how many you don't.

Pacerlive
06-12-2013, 01:23 PM
I think Lebron not winning this series and playing poorly hurts only his comparison to Jordan and possibly Kobe. Outside of that I don't think it matters with comparing him to one of the best big men of this generation because Lebron isn't a PF or Center like Duncan.

They are completely different positions and its like comparing Tim Duncan to Scottie Pippen. Point blank it shouldn't be done IMO.

Compare Jordans worst final games to Lebrons and its not even close. Compare him to Kobe and I think he is separating himself from that discussion as well if he doesn't improve but I think he will play for another 10 years so anything can happen in a decade.

Goose17
06-12-2013, 01:24 PM
Lebron is not playing well...



What a god awful post. So lets just leave out the two championship series he's lost(possibly 3) and consider how he's going to run off 6 magical rings in a row after this year:facepalm:


LOL what? First of all HE HASN'T LOST THE SERIES YET. Miami are still heavy favourites, go talk to Vegas.

On top of that If you had judged Jordans career in 1997, what would you have said?

I'm not comparing the two to be clear, just saying you can't judge anyone's legacy until their career is over. He could lose this year and win another two or three rings before he retires.


Stupid conversation anyway, total non-topic, the other guy who said it's pointless to argue with you was right. Goodbye.

Pacerlive
06-12-2013, 01:29 PM
LOL what? First of all HE HASN'T LOST THE SERIES YET. Miami are still heavy favourites, go talk to Vegas. On top of that If you had judged Jordans career in 1997, what would you have said?

I'm not comparing the two to be clear, just saying you can't judge anyone's legacy until their career is over. He could lose this year and win another two or three rings before he retires.


Stupid conversation anyway, total non-topic, the other guy who said it's pointless to argue with you was right. Goodbye.

I wonder if people realize that Vegas only cares about making money and making people bet a certain way in order to make money. They set the lines so that they win but its not a indicator of who will win a series.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:31 PM
LOL what? First of all HE HASN'T LOST THE SERIES YET. Miami are still heavy favourites, go talk to Vegas.

On top of that If you had judged Jordans career in 1997, what would you have said?

I'm not comparing the two to be clear, just saying you can't judge anyone's legacy until their career is over. He could lose this year and win another two or three rings before he retires.


Stupid conversation anyway, total non-topic, the other guy who said it's pointless to argue with you was right. Goodbye.

Still haven't learned to read yet huh? I said 2(possibly3). Lebron only has about 2/3 years left in his prime. Right now is a great time to start looking at his legacy. Losing three times in the finals would be pretty bad, considering he only has one win. It will be incredibly tough for Lebron to crack the top five if he has two finals series where he is out played by average players.

Goose17
06-12-2013, 01:34 PM
Still haven't learned to read yet huh? I said 2(possibly3). Lebron only has about 2/3 years left in his prime. Right now is a great time to start looking at his legacy. Losing three times in the finals would be pretty bad, considering he only has one win. It will be incredibly tough for Lebron to crack the top five if he has two finals series where he is out played by average players.

2/3 years left in his prime? wtf lol... I give up.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:38 PM
2/3 years left in his prime? wtf lol... I give up.

Uhhh yeah! In three years I expect him to slow down. I thought you were leaving?

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 01:38 PM
:confused: Duncan is ranked in the top 7 on PSD. Who has Lebron in the top 7?

Radio host Mike Francesa


There is a New York radio host that says he is 7 all time right now. Here is his list in no order

Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Jordan
Oscar
West
Lebron
Magic
Bird

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 01:43 PM
Radio host Mike Francesa

Lol, Does anyone take this guy seriously?

Jroz
06-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

edit: Lebron is the greatest athlete we've seen in the game for years

there, fixed.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Does this guarantee Lebron will never pass Duncan on the all time players list?
A definitive conclusion of the 2 careers cannot be drawn at this point. Duncan winning a 5th ring in the final days of his career is impressive but not the stake it needs to be to put down Bron. Its those other 4 championships that Bron will try to measure up against, he may not need to win ring for ring, but he cannot play as badly as he did yesterday and escape the blame of defeat. Then theres the question of longevity. Thats the unknown element.



Is it possible for Lebron to make the top 5 all time being 1-3 in the finals?
Depends on what your Top-5 looks like. But ask yourself if its more honorable to make the Finals or lose to an inferior team before even getting that far.


As of now, Lebron is repeating his 2011 finals. IMO, he needs to step it up big time in the next 4 games or his legacy will take a huge hit.

Discuss!

He will step it up but its a different Bron from a defensive standpoint. Hes being asked to do alot more things since the small ball experiments started.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 01:47 PM
Lol, Does anyone take this guy seriously?

Lol I like his show but it's weird to see him do a complete turn around on Lebron. When they lost to OKC he was singing a different tune. He also buys into the whole he can play 5 positions thing. I think that's why so many ppl have a problem with LBJ. His talent is off the charts and no one can deny that but it's reaching God like unreachable levels.

bucketss
06-12-2013, 02:00 PM
5 championships, with parker playing like crap, duncan willl probably win finals mvp to! he will probably jump to top 5 all time along side, jordan,russel,magic,wilt,

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 02:03 PM
A definitive conclusion of the 2 careers cannot be drawn at this point. Duncan winning a 5th ring in the final days of his career is impressive but not the stake it needs to be to put down Bron. Its those other 4 championships that Bron will try to measure up against, he may not need to win ring for ring, but he cannot play as badly as he did yesterday and escape the blame of defeat. Then theres the question of longevity. Thats the unknown element.



Depends on what your Top-5 looks like. But ask yourself if its more honorable to make the Finals or lose to an inferior team before even getting that far.


He will step it up but its a different Bron from a defensive standpoint. Hes being asked to do alot more things since the small ball experiments started.

I was comparing the two because Lebron is trying to catch Duncan(and other greats) in the all time player list. losing to one of those guys twice in the finals should tell you a lot. If the Heat lose, it means Lebron had an opportunity to beat Duncan while as a young pup and a prime superstar. Failing both times should only be seen as a negative for Lebrons legacy.

I can't agree with you on the second part. The Heat were the better team in 2011 and 2013. They might be in a slump now, but that doesn't change how they wrecked everyone in the regular season.

We'll see how he does in the next game or two.

shep33
06-12-2013, 02:05 PM
I agree to an extent, but how can this not be a negative impact on Lebrons legacy if they lose and his stats are Non Lebron like?

He'll take a legacy hit. I don't disagree at all there

Chronz
06-12-2013, 02:07 PM
I was comparing the two because Lebron is trying to catch Duncan(and other greats) in the all time player list.
Your reasons for making the thread were never called into question. Dont see why you're bringing it up now.


losing to one of those guys twice in the finals should tell you a lot.
It does. I just dont think its telling us the same thing.


If the Heat lose, it means Lebron had an opportunity to beat Duncan while as a young pup and a prime superstar. Failing both times should only be seen as a negative for Lebrons legacy.

Not at all, his failure during his Cleveland run represents one of the greatest individual accomplishments we've witnessed in recent memory. Thats nothing to be ashamed of. How he played yesterday however, thats pretty bad.


The Heat were the better team in 2011 and 2013. They might be in a slump now, but that doesn't change how they wrecked everyone in the regular season.
What makes you so sure the Heat were the better team in 2013?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 02:10 PM
5 championships, with parker playing like crap, duncan willl probably win finals mvp to! he will probably jump to top 5 all time along side, jordan,russel,magic,wilt,
So do you think it's possible for Lebron to catch any of them if he loses in the finals for a third time?

What makes you so sure the Heat were the better team in 2013?

Home court for having the best record in the league? Second longest winning streak of all time? Come on man, everyone knew the Heat were going to be in the finals again. The west was unclear.

Bruno
06-12-2013, 02:16 PM
LBJ needs to shoot a few jumpers early in the first quarter with confidence to create the space his team needs to operate. the spurs are going under all the screens and packing the paint- LeBron needs to get his shot going in game four, his ts% is in the dumps, .441.

if he does that everything else will open up for them.

zn23
06-12-2013, 02:25 PM
Well yea, his legacy will take a hit if the Heat don't win... I'm not sure how big of a hit it will take, he does have 4 MVP's after all. Also it's not like LeBron is playing great right now. He's He's been pretty passive in the first 3 games for some reason. If he continues to play like this and the Heat lose it's going to be another hard loss to overcome.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 02:26 PM
Home court for having the best record in the league?
Werent you siding with your binky amos when you were against Bron for MVP because wins in the East arent as impressive as wins in the West? Its not a bad notion, common sense actually, the thing is, we have barometers for team level of play that are more significant than blind glances at the win-loss tally. Why not apply those barometers into the equation?



Second longest winning streak of all time?
During that streak they played like the best. That was a different Wade with them.


Come on man, everyone knew the Heat were going to be in the finals again. The west was unclear.
Yea but I didn't ask what makes you think they were the best team in the East. Im talking about OVERALL.


PS Check the edit of that post, didn't realize it was a post directed towards me

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 02:30 PM
His defense has not been that good, sorry dude. Lebron got hot when it counted in game 2????? He scored 6 points after this team went up by twenty, what in gods name are you talking about! Lebron has played terrible and some Heat fans on here have fully agreed with me. So stop being a homer.

He played really well when it counted though.

I'm not from Miami so I'm not a homer.

His defense has been superb like always.

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 02:33 PM
So do you think it's possible for Lebron to catch any of them if he loses in the finals for a third time?


Home court for having the best record in the league? Second longest winning streak of all time? Come on man, everyone knew the Heat were going to be in the finals again. The west was unclear.

Of course it is... You're totally underestimating the statistical dominance of LBJ during his career. His number will be insane when it's over. Also he still has another 5-10 years left in him at least...

You're talking like it's the end of his career.

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 02:34 PM
THe way illusionist flip flops from how bad/good the heat is, so annoying. Him and Amosier will talk about how bad the Heat are one day, and talk about how unfair the team is the next.

You 2 literally don't take a firm stance on anything. You flip flop to whatever argument you like best for the moment.

DoMeFavors
06-12-2013, 02:34 PM
I think its more about how many finals you been to rather than how many you won. Some players that won in the finals wont make it to the finals as many times as LeBron.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 02:45 PM
Your reasons for making the thread were never called into question. Dont see why you're bringing it up now.


It does. I just dont think its telling us the same thing.


Not at all, his failure during his Cleveland run represents one of the greatest individual accomplishments we've witnessed in recent memory. Thats nothing to be ashamed of. How he played yesterday however, thats pretty bad.



So what is losing to Duncan twice while playing like **** tell you MR CHRONZ?

So LeBron getting swept by the spurs should be looked at in an honorable way? Maybe from you apologists, but not me.


Werent you siding with your binky amos when you were against Bron for MVP because wins in the East arent as impressive as wins in the West? Its not a bad notion, common sense actually, the thing is, we have barometers for team level of play that are more significant than blind glances at the win-loss tally. Why not apply those barometers into the equation?



During that streak they played like the best. That was a different Wade with them.


Yea but I didn't ask what makes you think they were the best team in the East. Im talking about OVERALL.


PS Check the edit of that post, didn't realize it was a post directed towards meThe Heat still had the best record in the league and a mighty fine record vs the West.

It's only been like 3 months since the streak, how much could one man change?

Yeah I'm talking about overall too. The Heat were considered the favorites once again. Most people on here were convinced that the Heat were locks to repeat.

bucketss
06-12-2013, 02:54 PM
So do you think it's possible for Lebron to catch any of them if he loses in the finals for a third time?


Home court for having the best record in the league? Second longest winning streak of all time? Come on man, everyone knew the Heat were going to be in the finals again. The west was unclear.

ofcourse its possible, he could ring off 5 chips in a row after this year, is it likely? maybe a few of them, catching jordan died in 2011, magic is currently is on life support depends if he embarrasses himself in the next few games.

bucketss
06-12-2013, 02:55 PM
LBJ needs to shoot a few jumpers early in the first quarter with confidence to create the space his team needs to operate. the spurs are going under all the screens and packing the paint- LeBron needs to get his shot going in game four, his ts% is in the dumps, .441.

if he does that everything else will open up for them.

agreed. he started doing that in the 3rd after he hit a jumper plus another 3, afterwards he got two layups.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 02:57 PM
It depends on what happens to the Heat in the following yrs. As we know winning cures everything.

Heat lose to the Mavs - Lebron's a failure, don't compare him to Jordan, he's a choker, etc
Heat beat OKC - on the same level with Jordan, most complete player I have ever seen, top ten right now, etc

Winning changes how fans and media perceive you. Lebron caught so much Heat(no pun intended) when they loss to the Mavs but look how it changed after the victory over the Thunder. No one outside of fans that never liked hom said a bad word about him all yr. He became a media darling again.

FernandoDw
06-12-2013, 03:00 PM
so the title is "if the heat fail to win the ship this year..." or "if LeBron fail to win the ship this year..." ? :rolleyes:

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 03:03 PM
He played really well when it counted though.

I'm not from Miami so I'm not a homer.

His defense has been superb like always.Lebron was saved by his great roles players in game two. He played terrible all game until the Heat went up 15+.


Of course it is... You're totally underestimating the statistical dominance of LBJ during his career. His number will be insane when it's over. Also he still has another 5-10 years left in him at least...

You're talking like it's the end of his career.Lebrons stats are greatly inflated due to many factors.


I think its more about how many finals you been to rather than how many you won. Some players that won in the finals wont make it to the finals as many times as LeBron.

Would you rather be 5-2 in the finals or 3-5?

sep11ie
06-12-2013, 03:11 PM
Illusionist... Fresh off a ban and ready for another...

sep11ie
06-12-2013, 03:12 PM
I mean... LeBron James.

king4day
06-12-2013, 03:42 PM
I was hoping to reserve this thread idea for after the finals (if the Heat were to lose).
The question I would have posed would be asking if it's time to break up the band and get Lebron a more balanced supporting cast.

It's silly that people rip Lebron for ONE series. He was MVP before this round. We saw last year that he can handle the finals so it's not that. He's run into a tough defensive team. Didn't Kobe have this problem in 2004? It didn't diminish his legacy.

ghettosean
06-12-2013, 03:42 PM
:confused: Duncan is ranked in the top 7 on PSD. Who has Lebron in the top 7?

In some posters minds they have him rated better than Jordan... I've never met anyone in person who is old enough to see both players play and say Lebron is better. I have to imagine all the people who think LBJ is GOAT are all a bunch of kids who never saw him play and how amazing MJ really was.

IversonIsKrazy
06-12-2013, 03:45 PM
If LeBron keeps playing like he has for the rest of the series, then it'll take a BIG hit to his legacy. I think the main reason LBJ has such high critisism is because of the ppl who claim he might be better than Jordan. And at the biggest stage of the game, Jordan took it up a notch. Jordan, in 6 appearances, was 6-0, and NEVER scored under 20 pts. LBJ On the other hand...... well u get the picture.

DUncan > LBJ though. And when both careers are finished, I see it staying like that.

ghettosean
06-12-2013, 03:46 PM
I was hoping to reserve this thread idea for after the finals (if the Heat were to lose).
The question I would have posed would be asking if it's time to break up the band and get Lebron a more balanced supporting cast.

It's silly that people rip Lebron for ONE series. He was MVP before this round. We saw last year that he can handle the finals so it's not that. He's run into a tough defensive team. Didn't Kobe have this problem in 2004? It didn't diminish his legacy.

We can rip him for 2011 and 2013 in the finals....

He's still the most talented player in the NBA but mentally the guy is weak and it shows over and over but people keep defending him (drives me insane).

Dude is mentally weak!

Also I was waiting to start this thread after the finals also but it's here now :D

As for your suggestion or question should the break them up I would say only if they can trade Wade (which they probably won't since he delivered them LBJ and Bosh and also won them there 1st championship).

They should trade Wade though LBJ and Wades game are too similar and Wade is showing signs of aging in his game.

king4day
06-12-2013, 03:50 PM
We can rip him for 2011 and 2013 in the finals....

He's still the most talented player in the NBA but mentally the guy is weak and it shows over and over but people keep defending him (drives me insane).

Dude is mentally weak!

Also I was waiting to start this thread after the finals also but it's here now :D

As for your suggestion or question should the break them up I would say only if they can trade Wade (which they probably won't since he delivered them LBJ and Bosh and also won them there 1st championship).

They should trade Wade though LBJ and Wades game are too similar and Wade is showing signs of aging in his game.

I hear ya. I'd rather wait to see how he looks the rest of this series. If they lose and he looks like he did last game, then it'll get loud in here.
I want the Spurs to win because I want to see change. It would be exciting to see Miami break up the big three this quick (even if they improve with the return they get).

Chronz
06-12-2013, 03:53 PM
So what is losing to Duncan twice while playing like **** tell you MR CHRONZ?
Well I already elaborated on the first part when I mentioned the context involving Brons first Finals appearance, this 2nd one has yet to occur but if you are telling me that he plays as badly as he did yesterday from here on out then its obviously a far greater dishonor than that first miraculous run.


So LeBron getting swept by the spurs should be looked at in an honorable way? Maybe from you apologists, but not me.
Says the extreme kobephile, do you have any logical rationale to enforce your belief or just unsubstantiated insults?


The Heat still had the best record in the league and a mighty fine record vs the West.
You didn't answer the question tho. Ill try again:

the thing is, we have barometers for team level of play that are more significant than blind glances at the win-loss tally. Why not apply those barometers into the equation?


It's only been like 3 months since the streak, how much could one man change?
Are you not aware of how the human body works? Injuries can happen at any moment, people dont just degrade at a steady timescale.


Yeah I'm talking about overall too.
So then why mention they were locks to come out the East? That was never called into question.


The Heat were considered the favorites once again. Most people on here were convinced that the Heat were locks to repeat.
Point? Relevance? What do they have to do with anything Ive said?

You're not very good at this.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 04:00 PM
Lebron was saved by his great roles players in game two. He played terrible all game until the Heat went up 15+
Right because everyone knows Bron played no part in that run, he ONLY started playing good once the lead was mounted, but he himself, nothing to do with it.


Lebrons stats are greatly inflated due to many factors.
I dont know whats funnier, the thought of you actually giving in-depth statistical analysis a try, or the notion that I would believe the results you came up with.



Would you rather be 5-2 in the finals or 3-5?
Would you rather lose in R.1 or R.2?

JEDean89
06-12-2013, 04:11 PM
heat would be stupid to trade wade and bosh when they can just resign them both for cheaper. wade for 7, bosh for 15 and lebron for 20 is 42 mil a year, they could put a real center around those 3 and a real pg. they also could use some draft picks. there have been a lot of late 1st rounders that the heat could use, they need to draft well.

dnl123
06-12-2013, 04:16 PM
Can we be realistic here please! This series is a grind for both teams! Tony Parker had 6 points last game (sounds like he's hurt so we can blame it on that) Duncan had 12 last game and 9 the game before. The highest scoring player in the ENTIRE SERIES is Danny Green! It's not all about points! Lebron has been the best player for Miami all series long, he had a triple double in game 1! He's not scoring well and he needs to turn it around, but he's still arguably one of the most consistent players in this series! It's a grind for both teams to score, give the defenses of both teams credit!

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 04:16 PM
Illusionist... Fresh off a ban and ready for another...

It's a valid question. So get lost if you don't want to contribute to the thread.

pacman16
06-12-2013, 04:17 PM
His defense has not been that good, sorry dude. Lebron got hot when it counted in game 2????? He scored 6 points after this team went up by twenty, what in gods name are you talking about! Lebron has played terrible and some Heat fans on here have fully agreed with me. So stop being a homer.

couple bad games and you and others have a right to continuously try and bash the best player in the league.....all star wade or bosh should easily be able to pick up the slack cause he has the greatest team ever right? shows you all how much lebron is MIA and carries this team.

whitemamba33
06-12-2013, 04:17 PM
If the Heat lose this year, LeBron's legacy takes a serious hit, in my opinion. Of course for all I know he could find himself in a position to win 5, 6, or 7 championships, but it'll seem more like they waited for San Antonio to get old and go away instead of beating them.

A team with Wade, Bosh, and James manages to win 1 championship in 3 years? And the one year they did win was a shortened season? Coming up short 3 times in the finals? Yikes.

When LeBron was losing in the playoffs in Cleveland the argument was that his team wasn't good enough, despite owning the regular season twice in a row. The same argument doesn't hold true anymore. To call this team "capable" of winning this series is a severe understatement, and if the Heat can't get it done it'll be hard to look at James as a player that makes his teammates better.

Either way, I find it comical that the same excuses pop up whether he's playing with a bunch of scrubs in Cleveland or future hall of famers in Miami.

dnl123
06-12-2013, 04:21 PM
Lebron hasn't played great, but I can't believe some people are putting him down to the point of playing terrible, it's just plain not true. He's playing good team basketball, he needs to score better (I've already said that) but he's #2 in points in the series behind Green right now! Every single player is struggling to score! It's a defensive series!

TheLegend
06-12-2013, 04:21 PM
Still haven't learned to read yet huh? I said 2(possibly3). Lebron only has about 2/3 years left in his prime. Right now is a great time to start looking at his legacy. Losing three times in the finals would be pretty bad, considering he only has one win. It will be incredibly tough for Lebron to crack the top five if he has two finals series where he is out played by average players.

Hideous post. Lebron has only 2/3 years left in his prime!? I doubt that very much. Look, dude you are not even qualified to make such a statement.

pacman16
06-12-2013, 04:27 PM
If the Heat lose this year, LeBron's legacy takes a serious hit, in my opinion.

A team with Wade, Bosh, and James manages to win 1 championship in 3 years? And the one year they did win was a shortened season?

When LeBron was losing in the playoffs in Cleveland the argument was that his team wasn't good enough, despite owning the regular season twice in a row. The same argument doesn't hold true anymore. To call this team "capable" of winning this series is a severe understatement, and if the Heat can't get it done it'll be hard to look at James as a player that makes his teammates better.

Either way, I find it comical that the same excuses pop up whether he's playing with a bunch of scrubs in Cleveland or future hall of famers in Miami.

I find it comical that kobe doesn't get faulted for his lakers ******** the bed with his stacked of a team....also find it comical people are acting like the spurs are nobodies and heat should have won in 4....
did everyone just forget how the spurs been dominated this entire playoffs? teams playing amazing basketball, give them tons of credit for slowing down lebron knowing wade and bosh are playing like trash babies

valade16
06-12-2013, 04:27 PM
If the Heat lose this year, LeBron's legacy takes a serious hit, in my opinion.

Either way, I find it comical that the same excuses pop up whether he's playing with a bunch of scrubs in Cleveland or future hall of famers in Miami.

Does anyone remember back when Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki were "the guys who couldn't win a 'Chip"?

If his legacy takes a hit, it is only a temporary one.

Your telling me if LeBron goes on to win another 3 MVPs (setting the record for most ever) and gets another 4-5 Championships you're going to say "yeah, he did all that, but he started out 1-3 in the Finals"?

Gimme a break.

Remember when Jordan couldn't beat the Pistons in the playoffs? How do you think that affected his legacy?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 04:30 PM
Well I already elaborated on the first part when I mentioned the context involving Brons first Finals appearance, this 2nd one has yet to occur but if you are telling me that he plays as badly as he did yesterday from here on out then its obviously a far greater dishonor than that first miraculous run.


Says the extreme kobephile, do you have any logical rationale to enforce your belief or just unsubstantiated insults?


You didn't answer the question tho. Ill try again:

the thing is, we have barometers for team level of play that are more significant than blind glances at the win-loss tally. Why not apply those barometers into the equation?


Are you not aware of how the human body works? Injuries can happen at any moment, people dont just degrade at a steady timescale.


So then why mention they were locks to come out the East? That was never called into question.


Point? Relevance? What do they have to do with anything Ive said?

You're not very good at this.

So you agree that his legacy will take a hit, good.

Getting swept is never a good look on your legacy, I am very ashamed of the *** whopping Kobe and Co took in 2011.

What barometers would you like to add in MR HS?

One could argue that Lebron's play is taking away from Wade, and Bosh. Wade was/is a top 5 player to most Heat fans on here. Now you guys want to claim he's a scrub.

Overall the Heat were seem as the best/deepest team in the league. All season long we had to hear about how great your team was. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here?

Are you going to keep running around in your apology circle? Lebron has to take blame somewhere along the line. So stop acting like Lebron has an excuse this time.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 04:31 PM
I was hoping to reserve this thread idea for after the finals (if the Heat were to lose).
The question I would have posed would be asking if it's time to break up the band and get Lebron a more balanced supporting cast.

It's silly that people rip Lebron for ONE series. He was MVP before this round. We saw last year that he can handle the finals so it's not that. He's run into a tough defensive team. Didn't Kobe have this problem in 2004? It didn't diminish his legacy.

It did for a while because they were upset by DET, the team was broken up, and the Lakers became a mediocre team. Even when they went to the finals in 08 there was a lot of he'll never win as the man talk. Kobe had to win those 2 rings to get the media off his back. After they won 2 in a row it was nothing but love for KB24. If Lebron comes back and rattles off more wins then this will be nothing to harp on.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 04:32 PM
Right because everyone knows Bron played no part in that run, he ONLY started playing good once the lead was mounted, but he himself, nothing to do with it.


I dont know whats funnier, the thought of you actually giving in-depth statistical analysis a try, or the notion that I would believe the results you came up with.



Would you rather lose in R.1 or R.2?

UHHHh yeah... Go look at his stats before he started stat padding. His team carried him in that game or they might be down 0-3.

Thanks for dodging the question.;)

Pacerlive
06-12-2013, 04:33 PM
Lebron hasn't played great, but I can't believe some people are putting him down to the point of playing terrible, it's just plain not true. He's playing good team basketball, he needs to score better (I've already said that) but he's #2 in points in the series behind Green right now! Every single player is struggling to score! It's a defensive series!

He is shooting below 40% for the series so YES he is playing bad and the same goes for Tim Duncan but he is the oldest guy on the court.

whitemamba33
06-12-2013, 04:34 PM
I find it comical that kobe doesn't get faulted for his lakers ******** the bed with his stacked of a team....also find it comical people are acting like the spurs are nobodies and heat should have won in 4....
did everyone just forget how the spurs been dominated this entire playoffs? teams playing amazing basketball, give them tons of credit for slowing down lebron knowing wade and bosh are playing like trash babies

lol ya...because the Lakers didn't get any media attention for how bad they played together this season. Are you even serious with that comment?

The Spurs aren't nobodies. They are a great team and probably the best franchise in sports since 2000. They aren't a pushover at all. Still, losing in the finals is a big deal to me when I evaluate a players legacy, and this would be 3 times. I can't overlook that.

You can call Wade and Bosh trash babies if you want, but there is zero sympathy from me. This team is built to win and anything less than a ring is a dissapointment.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 04:37 PM
Does anyone remember back when Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki were "the guys who couldn't win a 'Chip"?

If his legacy takes a hit, it is only a temporary one.

Your telling me if LeBron goes on to win another 3 MVPs (setting the record for most ever) and gets another 4-5 Championships you're going to say "yeah, he did all that, but he started out 1-3 in the Finals"?

Gimme a break.

Remember when Jordan couldn't beat the Pistons in the playoffs? How do you think that affected his legacy?

If LeBron does what you just said, I will give him all the credit in the world. IMO Lebrons days of winning are coming to an end. That's if he loses this year. Next year will be super tough for him, as are the years that follow.

Tony_Starks
06-12-2013, 04:38 PM
If he loses playing the way he's playing now then his legacy takes a pretty big hit. For the simple fact that he will have completely choked in 2 finals.

Stars still lose finals, and you have to be a great star to lead your team there in the first place but the way he is losing is disappointing to watch.

whitemamba33
06-12-2013, 04:40 PM
Does anyone remember back when Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki were "the guys who couldn't win a 'Chip"?

Yep. But the idea that a "legacy" is in any way official or universally agreed upon is silly. I might value things that you don't, and that's fine. Losing in the Finals 3 times, being on the team with the best regular season record 3 times and not winning in those seasons...$%$ adds up.


If his legacy takes a hit, it is only a temporary one.

Your telling me if LeBron goes on to win another 3 MVPs (setting the record for most ever) and gets another 4-5 Championships you're going to say "yeah, he did all that, but he started out 1-3 in the Finals"?

That's a lot of "if's". The fact that he's struggling to win championships now with a team this stacked makes me start to view another 4-5 championships as unlikely. But we shall see.

--23--
06-12-2013, 04:48 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

^^^ Pretty much this, people need to shut up and wait till the series end.

valade16
06-12-2013, 04:48 PM
If LeBron does what you just said, I will give him all the credit in the world. IMO Lebrons days of winning are coming to an end. That's if he loses this year. Next year will be super tough for him, as are the years that follow.

Well we're in agreement, if his legacy takes a hit, it will only be temporary pending the rest of his career.


Yep. But the idea that a "legacy" is in any way official or universally agreed upon is silly. I might value things that you don't, and that's fine. Losing in the Finals 3 times, being on the team with the best regular season record 3 times and not winning in those seasons...$%$ adds up.

That's a lot of "if's". The fact that he's struggling to win championships now with a team this stacked makes me start to view another 4-5 championships as unlikely. But we shall see.

I assumed we were talking about the generally accepted legacy of players. You're absolutely right, your idea for what makes a player great can be vastly different than someone elses, and by that measure this could absolutely drop their legacy in your opinion.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 04:51 PM
So you agree that his legacy will take a hit, good.
I said alot of things but its good that you are happy.


Getting swept is never a good look on your legacy, I am very ashamed of the *** whopping Kobe and Co took in 2011.
Im talking about the overall playoff run, the fact that he was even in a position to get swept in the Finals is an impressive accomplishment given his roster.


What barometers would you like to add in MR HS?
I dont get the reference. The barometers I speak of are the same employed by NBA execs. Things like efficiency differentials, SRS etc..


One could argue that Lebron's play is taking away from Wade, and Bosh. Wade was/is a top 5 player to most Heat fans on here. Now you guys want to claim he's a scrub.
That would be a great point, if this was year 1 and Wade was healthy. Sadly, this is year 3 and we already know Wade and Bron were able to coexist at an elite level despite the skillset overlap, why the sudden change.

You tell me whats more believable, that Wade and Bron suddenly forgot how to play cohesively together for an entire playoff run or that Wade suddenly declined as a result of injury/age? HMMM.....


Overall the Heat were seem as the best/deepest team in the league. All season long we had to hear about how great your team was. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here?
Based on what is what Im asking. You provided a blind glance at win loss tallies and have seemingly ignored the equally informative barometers I alluded to. Thats what Im trying to argue.... all caught up now?


Are you going to keep running around in your apology circle?
Try being more clever with your lame insults.


Lebron has to take blame somewhere along the line. So stop acting like Lebron has an excuse this time.
LMFAO, I have already said multiple times today that Bron is responsible for his own play. So tell me, how am I "acting" like you say? Dont get mad when people dont fall for your pretentious BS.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 04:52 PM
Well we're in agreement, if his legacy takes a hit, it will only be temporary pending the rest of his career.



.

Exactly, If Lebron doesn't win this year and fails to win in the next two, he'll never be ranked near the top 5, but if he goes off again like you said he has a good chance

Chronz
06-12-2013, 04:54 PM
UHHHh yeah... Go look at his stats before he started stat padding.
Why would I ignore his play DURING the run? And why would I believe anything you say regarding stats?


His team carried him in that game or they might be down 0-3.
Cool story bro, but he played a large role in that victory whether your willing to admit it or not.


Thanks for dodging the question.;)
Backattya ;)

ChitownBears22
06-12-2013, 04:55 PM
If the HEAT lose the series I expect Spolestra to be on the hotseat for 2013/14. I expect Bosh or Wade to be traded, possibly both. I would be happy my team made it this far, but a little sad we lost. Then I would realize that football season is only a month and a half a way, so I wouldn't really care.

MyDRoseLikeDeng
06-12-2013, 05:00 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

And great individual talents get the best out of their TEAMS. Cmon son

Chronz
06-12-2013, 05:01 PM
You can always discern a critic from a troll when they say Bron was carried to victory but that he alone carries the brunt of Miami's failure.

So he cant win no matter what he does, even if he wins.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 05:03 PM
I said alot of things but its good that you are happy.


Im talking about the overall playoff run, the fact that he was even in a position to get swept in the Finals is an impressive accomplishment given his roster.


I dont get the reference. The barometers I speak of are the same employed by NBA execs. Things like efficiency differentials, SRS etc..


That would be a great point, if this was year 1 and Wade was healthy. Sadly, this is year 3 and we already know Wade and Bron were able to coexist at an elite level despite the skillset overlap, why the sudden change.

You tell me whats more believable, that Wade and Bron suddenly forgot how to play cohesively together for an entire playoff run or that Wade suddenly declined as a result of injury/age? HMMM.....


Based on what is what Im asking. You provided a blind glance at win loss tallies and have seemingly ignored the equally informative barometers I alluded to. Thats what Im trying to argue.... all caught up now?


Try being more clever with your lame insults.


LMFAO, I have already said multiple times today that Bron is responsible for his own play. So tell me, how am I "acting" like you say? Dont get mad when people dont fall for your pretentious BS.

He had a great run vs teams just like his own. When he met a real team, he caught a smack to the face. If he was out west he would have no chance at a finals appearance at that point in time.

So what is your argument here?

It's possible for them to lose their ability to play with each other. A perfect example would be Kobe and Gasol.

Based off of the *** whopping everyone got during the year Chronz. My god dude. Was it Solely Lebron won won them all those games? Was it Lebron who won 28 games on his own??? WTF don't you get about how well rounded and solid the Heat are. Lebron apologists are plain sad.

I'm not insulting you, It's just the sad excuses you Lebron fans come up with to defend Lebron, even though he's on the verge of losing another final match.

All you're doing is coming up with excuses, so move on. The bottom line is if Lebron loses this year, his legacy takes a tremendous hit.

xxplayerxx23
06-12-2013, 05:06 PM
This is a joke. Duncan IMO was top 8 he may even move to top 5. Leron has at least 5-10 years left. Wade and bosh are playing like garbage. Lebron had a **** game it happens but this doesn't effect nothing. Sure he has lost two finals but he also won one and is now in another.. 4 finals appearances one championship 4 mvps all before he is 30. How many players could say that?? Every team in the nba wants him he will win more then 1. Expect a 30-8-6 game in game 4 ( hopefully a loss :)

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 05:08 PM
Why would I ignore his play DURING the run? And why would I believe anything you say regarding stats?


Cool story bro, but he played a large role in that victory whether your willing to admit it or not.


Backattya ;)

Lebron was losing them the game before everyone pitched in the help overcome the Spurs in game two. Lebron gets a block and everyone is wowed. He was shooting like 30 percent with 5rebs and 4 assists. Pop benches some starters and Lebron fills in a few stats so guys like you will look at the box score and say "See Lebrons stats were fairy decent".

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 05:15 PM
You can always discern a critic from a troll when they say Bron was carried to victory but that he alone carries the brunt of Miami's failure.

So he cant win no matter what he does, even if he wins.

Lebron was ok in game two, but the team showed up for him. I never said Lebron gets all the blame???? I was only comparing Lebron to Duncan and his all time rankings if he does lose in the finals once again. Wade and Bosh are irrelevant. I've tried telling all the Heat fans that Wade is not on Kobe level, but they insisted that Wade was better and top five material.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 05:18 PM
He had a great run vs teams just like his own.
Like his own? I dont see any like his own, this was a team that was dreadful when he wasn't on the court, IIRC they went 0-7 without him. That he came out the East with that squad in such dramatic fashion is an impressive run.


When he met a real team, he got a smack to the face. If he was out west he would have no chance at a finals appearance at the point in time.
Wait, so you're telling me that if the Cavs would have faced the same San Antonio team that beat them in the Finals, before they met in the finals, that the Cavs wouldn't have able to make the Finals? BRILLIANT ANALYSIS. Changes NOTHING Ive said.


So what is your argument here?
That getting swept by a team of the Spurs caliber after already overachieving to the degree that he and those Cavs did isn't the damning mark you wish it were.

Put it this way, why are you mentioning that Finals appearance as a negative?? By this logic, Bron would have been better served if he simply allowed his inferior club to lose in the ECF, that way he wouldn't have a 1-2 record in the Finals, it would be a more respectable 1-1. But real basketball fans know its always better to overachieve.


It's possible for them to lose their ability to play with each other. A perfect example would be Kobe and Gasol.
Im not seeing how its similar at all, feel free to educate me.


Based off of the *** whopping everyone got during the year Chronz. My god dude. Was it Solely Lebron won won them all those games? Was it Lebron who won 28 games on his own??? WTF don't you get about how well rounded and solid the Heat are. Lebron apologists are plain sad.
Where did I say it was solely LeBron? Must you cling to straws?
Both teams gave the league an *** whooping, its how they got to the Finals. Is there some kind of reason I should take your opinion over the relevant facts Ive given? THATS What I dont get.



I'm not insulting you, It's just the sad excuses you Lebron fans come up with to defend Lebron, even though he's on the verge of losing another final match.
I only consider excuses sad if they are easily debunked or refuted, from everything you've said here you have clearly not understood a word Ive said.


All you're doing is coming up with excuses, so move on. The bottom line is if Lebron loses this year, his legacy takes a tremendous hit.
All your doing is dismissing relevant facts, so why would I care what bottom line you come up with?

xxplayerxx23
06-12-2013, 05:20 PM
Lol yeah 100% lebron does all his work against the bench. 18-18-10 and 15-11-5 all against the bench. Guess you don't realize that the whole spurs team is geared up for lebron. Sure his shooters have hit a couple shots but where's bosh? Where is wade in the 2nd half? It's not all on lebron just stop it

xxplayerxx23
06-12-2013, 05:22 PM
Lebron was ok in game two, but the team showed up for him. I never said Lebron gets all the blame???? I was only comparing Lebron to Duncan and his all time rankings if he does lose in the finals once again. Wade and Bosh are irrelevant. I've tried telling all the Heat fans that Wade is not on Kobe level, but they insisted that Wade was better and top five material.

Two things when wade is 100%healthy he is better then Kobe. He has been better then Kobe for years. Kobe may have gotten him this year but peak years they are both very similar. Wade was a top 10 player this year Kobe may of been a little higher but you are crazy and your posts prove tht you hate lebron and the heat

Chronz
06-12-2013, 05:24 PM
Lebron was losing them the game before everyone pitched in the help overcome the Spurs in game two. Lebron gets a block and everyone is wowed. He was shooting like 30 percent with 5rebs and 4 assists. Pop benches some starters and Lebron fills in a few stats so guys like you will look at the box score and say "See Lebrons stats were fairy decent".


Lebron was ok in game two, but the team showed up for him. I never said Lebron gets all the blame???? I was only comparing Lebron to Duncan and his all time rankings if he does lose in the finals once again. Wade and Bosh are irrelevant. I've tried telling all the Heat fans that Wade is not on Kobe level, but they insisted that Wade was better and top five material.

Notice how you always mention what OTHER people say instead of focusing on the topic at hand.

By the time Pop benched his starters, the run I was impressed by from LeBron had already been cemented. So your post was pure trash. Dont believe anything you said.

Its funny how you can go from saying Bron was carried to victory, to saying he was OK, to then going back to saying he was losing them the game.

So on 1 post you want me to believe you're not the kind of guy to place the entirety of the blame on LeBron but in the NEXT POST you're willing to stoop so low as to say Bron was "losing them the game"


LMFAO the inconsistencies in you're logic is TRULY 1 of a kind

carruthers32
06-12-2013, 05:26 PM
Go watch tennis... Why do you think basketball is a 1v1 sport?

lmao

whitemamba33
06-12-2013, 05:26 PM
So he cant win no matter what he does, even if he wins.

...sounds familiar.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 05:31 PM
Two things when wade is 100%healthy he is better then Kobe. He has been better then Kobe for years. Kobe may have gotten him this year but peak years they are both very similar. Wade was a top 10 player this year Kobe may of been a little higher but you are crazy and your posts prove tht you hate lebron and the heat

He doesn't seem to understand context. He applies rules as general formalities all across the board. Its very similar to the mentality JB uses when he cites Ben Wallace and Shaq as proven winners who are enough help instead of the injured liabilities they were when the playoffs rolled around.

But we are truly wasting our time, it seems illusionist cant conceive of a world in which Wade is both better than Kobe when healthy yet struggles to remain healthy. Take pride in Kobes durability, THATS what makes his career greater than Wade's.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 05:33 PM
Notice how you always mention what OTHER people say instead of focusing on the topic at hand.

By the time Pop benched his starters, the run I was impressed by from LeBron had already been cemented. So your post was pure trash. Dont believe anything you said.

Its funny how you can go from saying Bron was carried to victory, to saying he was OK, to then going back to saying he was losing them the game.

So on 1 post you want me to believe you're not the kind of guy to place the entirety of the blame on LeBron but in the NEXT POST you're willing to stoop so low as to say Bron was "losing them the game"


LMFAO the inconsistencies in you're logic is TRULY 1 of a kind

When Pop benched his starters, Lebron added in 4 points 3 rebs, and 2 assists to his total of 17/8/7. I think that qualifies as padding the stats a bit.

I might have been exaggerating a tad, but when the Heat were tied up and went on a run to push it to 10+, Lebron had very little to do with it. Shortly after that he came in for the kill. These facts lean to my argument.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2013, 05:35 PM
He doesn't seem to understand context. He applies rules as general formalities all across the board. Its very similar to the mentality JB uses when he cites Ben Wallace and Shaq as proven winners who are enough help instead of the injured liabilities they were when the playoffs rolled around.

But we are truly wasting our time, it seems illusionist cant conceive of a world in which Wade is both better than Kobe when healthy yet struggles to remain healthy. Take pride in Kobes durability, THATS what makes his career greater than Wade's.

Will you guys ever not blame Wade's play on his health? It's getting real old. In no way shape or form is Wade on Kobes level. Ask any player, coach, or gm. I'll take their word over you and PSD's opinion.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 05:36 PM
...sounds familiar.

Very but it comes with the territory when you are a great player. It gets petty but player on the team we root for used to hear it all the time. Hell he still hears it.

xxplayerxx23
06-12-2013, 05:37 PM
He doesn't seem to understand context. He applies rules as general formalities all across the board. Its very similar to the mentality JB uses when he cites Ben Wallace and Shaq as proven winners who are enough help instead of the injured liabilities they were when the playoffs rolled around.

But we are truly wasting our time, it seems illusionist cant conceive of a world in which Wade is both better than Kobe when healthy yet struggles to remain healthy. Take pride in Kobes durability, THATS what makes his career greater than Wade's.

Yeah man agreed he will never understand. He's just like my Freind who hates lebron and wade. I dislike them both but I have to give credit where credit is due. Lebron is amazing and wade damn injuries really stoped him from being own of the best to play this game. He was still very good but just to think how he would of been without these nagging injuries.

RLundi
06-12-2013, 05:38 PM
Does anyone remember back when Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki were "the guys who couldn't win a 'Chip"?

If his legacy takes a hit, it is only a temporary one.

Your telling me if LeBron goes on to win another 3 MVPs (setting the record for most ever) and gets another 4-5 Championships you're going to say "yeah, he did all that, but he started out 1-3 in the Finals"?

Gimme a break.

Remember when Jordan couldn't beat the Pistons in the playoffs? How do you think that affected his legacy?

Great post.

xxplayerxx23
06-12-2013, 05:40 PM
...sounds familiar.

I Agree. When you are great you get hate from all over. I hate Kobe with a passion and I will get a little bias here or here against him but I do think he was a top8-10 player of all time with his peak and longevity I just feel like he is easy to hate ESP with the people on here like the op who claim
Wade wass never on his level or how rings are all that matters

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2013, 05:52 PM
I Agree. When you are great you get hate from all over. I hate Kobe with a passion and I will get a little bias here or here against him but I do think he was a top8-10 player of all time with his peak and longevity I just feel like he is easy to hate ESP with the people on here like the op who claim
Wade wass never on his level or how rings are all that matters

I think the hate ppl have for Wade over Kobe is some fans not all take his peak yrs and then build their whole argument around it as if a 3-4 yr run eliminates what Kobe has done. Not saying his peak was anything to sneeze because he was great at one point.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-12-2013, 05:54 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

Kobe Duncan and Shaq say hi...

Chronz
06-12-2013, 05:58 PM
Will you guys ever not blame Wade's play on his health?
Yes. When hes not injured or has proven any decline on his part to be permanent.



It's getting real old. In no way shape or form is Wade on Kobes level. Ask any player, coach, or gm. I'll take their word over you and PSD's opinion.

Cool. Im not concerned with that debate right now, I was just discussing the logic that gos into your thinking.

To some of us, the truth can never get old.

topdog
06-12-2013, 10:30 PM
Way too soon to be talking about Lebron's legacy. Even if he fails to win this year, he could still end up with several rings and then we'd be talking about when Lebron "made it over the hump" or possibly a Spurs-like "he only wins in even-numbered years.

bucketss
06-12-2013, 10:38 PM
Will you guys ever not blame Wade's play on his health? It's getting real old. In no way shape or form is Wade on Kobes level. Ask any player, coach, or gm. I'll take their word over you and PSD's opinion.

+1

hes healthy, dude gets up high a lot of times, hes just declining and it seems he hasn't been working on his game past few years and is getting exposed this year(and last years playoffs)

zn23
06-12-2013, 10:43 PM
Notice how you always mention what OTHER people say instead of focusing on the topic at hand.

By the time Pop benched his starters, the run I was impressed by from LeBron had already been cemented. So your post was pure trash. Dont believe anything you said.

Its funny how you can go from saying Bron was carried to victory, to saying he was OK, to then going back to saying he was losing them the game.

So on 1 post you want me to believe you're not the kind of guy to place the entirety of the blame on LeBron but in the NEXT POST you're willing to stoop so low as to say Bron was "losing them the game"


LMFAO the inconsistencies in you're logic is TRULY 1 of a kind

Chronz, I can tell you are enjoying this lol.


Duncan and Shaq say hi...

Fixed.

jam
06-12-2013, 11:36 PM
Reaching the finals 3 years in a row is usually considered a remarkable feat.

The achievement however is tarnished by the fact that 2 of their 3 best players left their original teams and that all 3 conspired to form a superteam to get there.

If they lose 2 of 3, the achievement is tarnished even further.

And that's not to mention all of the pathetic bandwagonners who were never heat fans to begin with, but bosh or lebron fans, and/or weak spined girlie men who chase elite teams like prepubescent girls chase boy band fairies with frosted highlights in their hair.

b@llhog24
06-12-2013, 11:40 PM
Not really. Lol he's young as ****. He'll have plenty of chances.

TheNumber37
06-12-2013, 11:51 PM
Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.
Lebron is still looking up Bird IMO.

If Duncan gets the fistful of rings, Lebron won't ever catch up to he or Kobe.

The Heat NOT winning titles in a 3 peat fashion is great for the NBA, hopefully, these super teams come to an end. When they lose next week, I see the Heat not making it to the finals next year (even if they pick up Billups), and Lebron and Bosh (Dallas) bolting somewhere else while Wade withers in South Beach.

b@llhog24
06-13-2013, 12:11 AM
some people do ,i've seen some people who rank him number 1(though thats a minority).a psd ranking is an average of many voices.but there is a small minority that do

If we're talking peak/prime wise. Then yes he's easily top 7. In the overall all-time rankings I had him at about 13-15ish when we did the Top 50 player polls. But since he's won a ring I nudged him to the 11th-13th range and with this season under his belt I think he can easily make a case for top 10.


those players are never listed in the top 10 players of all time BECAUSE THEY NEVER WON A RING.
Lebron has a ring so that obviously doesnt mean him, but he wont be a top 10 player with just 1 ring. he will just be another great player that won a ring like Dirk and Oscar.

Like you said he may win many rings, being 1/4 in finals appearances isnt good for such a talented player.

Those players aren't listed in the top 10 all time, because there are more than ten players better than them. It's that simple.


It depends on what happens to the Heat in the following yrs. As we know winning cures everything.

Heat lose to the Mavs - Lebron's a failure, don't compare him to Jordan, he's a choker, etc
Heat beat OKC - on the same level with Jordan, most complete player I have ever seen, top ten right now, etc

Winning changes how fans and media perceive you. Lebron caught so much Heat(no pun intended) when they loss to the Mavs but look how it changed after the victory over the Thunder. No one outside of fans that never liked hom said a bad word about him all yr. He became a media darling again.


He is shooting below 40% for the series so YES he is playing bad and the same goes for Tim Duncan but he is the oldest guy on the court.

Great post.


^^^ Pretty much this, people need to shut up and wait till the series end.

Agreed.

SportsFanatic10
06-13-2013, 12:20 AM
this delusionist guy is really something else. i'm just surprised he hasn't brought up his favorite lebron bashing argument in here yet (failing to win gold on team usa the one time) lol.

ArmLaker
06-13-2013, 12:25 AM
Hey guys, I wanna ask everyone something. Can you picture LeBron without his explosiveness and athleticism? What kind of player and what kind of impact do you think he'll have on games? This is all going to happen in 2-3 years TOPS. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, LeBron is going to have the biggest drop-off for a superstar in NBA history. You will all feel very silly when you tried to compare him to MJ, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq etc etc

amos1er
06-13-2013, 12:33 AM
What makes you so sure the Heat were the better team in 2013?

Vegas odds...

Below are the complete betting odds for each team at the start of the 2013 NBA playoffs.

Miami Heat 2/3

Oklahoma City Thunder 4/1

San Antonio Spurs 10/1

New York Knicks 15/1

Denver Nuggets 22/1

Los Angeles Clippers 22/1

Indiana Pacers 22/1

Memphis Grizzlies 35/1

Los Angeles Lakers 40/1

Brooklyn Nets 50/1

Chicago Bulls 50/1

Boston Celtics 60/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Atlanta Hawks 125/1

Milwaukee Bucks 300/1

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-playoffs-...inals-1201127#

bucketss
06-13-2013, 12:35 AM
Hey guys, I wanna ask everyone something. Can you picture LeBron without his explosiveness and athleticism? What kind of player and what kind of impact do you think he'll have on games? This is all going to happen in 2-3 years TOPS. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, LeBron is going to have the biggest drop-off for a superstar in NBA history. You will all feel very silly when you tried to compare him to MJ, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq etc etc

good thing lebron would be strong enough and big enough to switch over to pf, probably be better than rupaul atleast.

SportsFanatic10
06-13-2013, 12:35 AM
Hey guys, I wanna ask everyone something. Can you picture LeBron without his explosiveness and athleticism? What kind of player and what kind of impact do you think he'll have on games? This is all going to happen in 2-3 years TOPS. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, LeBron is going to have the biggest drop-off for a superstar in NBA history. You will all feel very silly when you tried to compare him to MJ, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq etc etc

dream on, lebron will still be a freak athlete in 3 years time, you just can't wait for it can you lol. and once his athleticism is mostly gone he can just play at the 4 full time worst case scenario. his elite passing skills aren't going anywhere, neither will his strength and instincts. his jumpshot and post game are improving every season, he'll be fine and still playing at a high level when that time comes.

bucketss
06-13-2013, 12:36 AM
Vegas odds...

Below are the complete betting odds for each team at the start of the 2013 NBA playoffs.

Miami Heat 2/3

Oklahoma City Thunder 4/1

San Antonio Spurs 10/1

New York Knicks 15/1

Denver Nuggets 22/1

Los Angeles Clippers 22/1

Indiana Pacers 22/1

Memphis Grizzlies 35/1

Los Angeles Lakers 40/1

Brooklyn Nets 50/1

Chicago Bulls 50/1

Boston Celtics 60/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Atlanta Hawks 125/1

Milwaukee Bucks 300/1

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-playoffs-...inals-1201127#

lol, i clearly remember you laughing at me when i brought up vegas odds when i said okc was the favorites in 2012.

SportsFanatic10
06-13-2013, 12:37 AM
Vegas odds...

Below are the complete betting odds for each team at the start of the 2013 NBA playoffs.

Miami Heat 2/3

Oklahoma City Thunder 4/1

San Antonio Spurs 10/1

New York Knicks 15/1

Denver Nuggets 22/1

Los Angeles Clippers 22/1

Indiana Pacers 22/1

Memphis Grizzlies 35/1

Los Angeles Lakers 40/1

Brooklyn Nets 50/1

Chicago Bulls 50/1

Boston Celtics 60/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Atlanta Hawks 125/1

Milwaukee Bucks 300/1

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-playoffs-...inals-1201127#

oh nice, you found the odds that were set when wade was sitting out at the end of the season and no one knew how seriously he was hurt.

amos1er
06-13-2013, 12:37 AM
lol, i clearly remember you laughing at me when i brought up vegas odds when i said okc was the favorites in 2012.

No, I just said that might have had something to do with Lebron's choke form the previous year. Oh and BTW, Hollinger also predicted Heat in 6.

lakerfan85
06-13-2013, 12:41 AM
John Stockton never won a championship... is he not one of the best point guards ever?

What about Pistol Pete, George Gervin, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins?


It shouldn't hurt Lebron's legacy at all if he were to lose this year because he might win the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. You can't even begin to judge his legacy until his career is over.

None of those players had a celebration saying they were gonna win Not 1, Not 2 and so forth...

nimzboy
06-13-2013, 12:41 AM
This series is going to 7 so everyone stop panicking. You actually think Stern would pass up on this opportunity to have such a highly anticipated and viewed game; in his last year as the commissioner? HELL NO! Lebron, and everyone else will get there **** together and win game 4. I have the heat and spurs splitting games 5 and 6. And then I have miami winning at home in game 7.
After this season, even if miami wins, they should consider trading bosh or wade(i doubt they would trade im, but it makes the most sense). If miami trades bosh they can get a real good center and with the left over money sign a guy like carl landry to replace him and resign birdman.

amos1er
06-13-2013, 12:42 AM
oh nice, you found the odds that were set when wade was sitting out at the end of the season and no one knew how seriously he was hurt.

Check out the ESPN panel of predictions...

only 4 out of the 18 predicted the Spurs...even knowing that Wade isn't 100%.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/matchup/_/teams/spurs-heat

amos1er
06-13-2013, 12:45 AM
Hollinger once again predicted the Heat to win it all...

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Funny how he picks whatever team Lebron is on since 2009 to win it all...hmmmm And still none of you will admit to any sort of bias what so ever.

SportsFanatic10
06-13-2013, 12:53 AM
Check out the ESPN panel of predictions...

only 4 out of the 18 predicted the Spurs...even knowing that Wade isn't 100%.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/matchup/_/teams/spurs-heat

ya that is crazy, the spurs are very underrated. i knew after the indy series that the heat might not have enough to beat the spurs in the finals since they obviously aren't the team they are supposed to be without a healthy wade.

ArmLaker
06-13-2013, 01:02 AM
dream on, lebron will still be a freak athlete in 3 years time, you just can't wait for it can you lol. and once his athleticism is mostly gone he can just play at the 4 full time worst case scenario. his elite passing skills aren't going anywhere, neither will his strength and instincts. his jumpshot and post game are improving every season, he'll be fine and still playing at a high level when that time comes.

Not hating my friend, just calling it like it is. Players like LeBron are never the same after losing their athleticism. He won't be playing at a high level. He'll still be good but top class? Forget it. He's too big too heavy and it will catch up to him

zn23
06-13-2013, 01:11 AM
Hollinger once again predicted the Heat to win it all...

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Funny how he picks whatever team Lebron is on since 2009 to win it all...hmmmm And still none of you will admit to any sort of bias what so ever.

He uses something called logic.

His picks are heavily weighted on stats, and stats change based on roster (rosters are affected by injuries).

zn23
06-13-2013, 01:13 AM
Hey guys, I wanna ask everyone something. Can you picture LeBron without his explosiveness and athleticism? What kind of player and what kind of impact do you think he'll have on games? This is all going to happen in 2-3 years TOPS. I've stated this before and I'll state it again, LeBron is going to have the biggest drop-off for a superstar in NBA history. You will all feel very silly when you tried to compare him to MJ, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq etc etc

But he's already done more than Kobe...

ArmLaker
06-13-2013, 01:16 AM
But he's already done more than Kobe...

lol HAHA of course he has. Talk to me in a couple of years when LeBron falls off the map and Kobe wins another championship or 2. FORCA PORTUGAL!

akagiredsuns
06-13-2013, 01:36 AM
Does anyone remember back when Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki were "the guys who couldn't win a 'Chip"?

If his legacy takes a hit, it is only a temporary one.

Your telling me if LeBron goes on to win another 3 MVPs (setting the record for most ever) and gets another 4-5 Championships you're going to say "yeah, he did all that, but he started out 1-3 in the Finals"?

Gimme a break.

Remember when Jordan couldn't beat the Pistons in the playoffs? How do you think that affected his legacy?

Jordan did not get pippen and paxson until 87, 3 years after he came into the league and even then it still took a few years to build chemistry so don't even make that argument because it's already dead in the water. The pistons were an established veteran team already with dumars, Thomas, laimbeer Rodman & Vinnie Johnson. To point out Jordans failure vs the pistons is ignorant and unfounded and doesn't have any basis for an argument. Lol fail :facepalm:

amos1er
06-13-2013, 01:39 AM
He uses something called logic.

His picks are heavily weighted on stats, and stats change based on roster (rosters are affected by injuries).

Well, in that case let me rephrase...

Hollingers logic is flawed in that he incorrectly picked Lebron to win the title 3/4 times. Since 2009 Hollinger predicted Lebron would win a ring every single year, and he was only right 1/4 times. Not very good accuracy for someone who many Lebronites consider to be a top expert in basketball knowledge.

Hollinger also predicted against the Lakers both years they won the title...

In 2009 he predicted the Nuggets would beat the Lakers in 6. http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/nuggets-lakers

In 2010 Hollinger also predicted the Suns would beat the Lakers in 6. http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/matchup/_/teams/suns-lakers

Can you all see the same trend I am seeing? Perhaps Hollinger picks with his heart instead of his mind at times too. He is only human after all.

amos1er
06-13-2013, 01:39 AM
But he's already done more than Kobe...

:laugh:

akagiredsuns
06-13-2013, 01:40 AM
But he's already done more than Kobe...

Really? So he was part of a dynasty and has won 2 finals MVP? Kobe is head and shoulders over Lebron. Even Jordan said Kobe is the only guy that can be compared to him. Quit sweating bron as if he's accomplished more than he has.
Thanks for the laugh. :laugh2:

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 01:50 AM
The Spurs have always been severely underrated. Even during their glory days.

It's hilarious how many Lakers fans are all of a sudden Spurs fans. Especially since for years they were the one's who primarily hated on the Spurs, and called them overrated.

It proves how stupid the fan base really is.

ArmLaker
06-13-2013, 01:57 AM
The Spurs have always been severely underrated. Even during their glory days.

It's hilarious how many Lakers fans are all of a sudden Spurs fans. Especially since for years they were the one's who primarily hated on the Spurs, and called them overrated.

It proves how stupid the fan base really is.

As a Laker fan I always hope we annihilate them when we face them but over the years you realize the great tradition and legacy they have achieved and as a fan of the greatest basketball franchise ever, you grow fond of that. You understand what they're all about as a Laker fan and I admire their team, their organization as a whole. They're the ultimate pros of basketball. How can anyone excluding Leboner and bandwagon Heat fans not root for them? Also, if we're going to get our ***** handed to us in the 1st round, we might as well get beat by the champions right?

zn23
06-13-2013, 02:14 AM
Really? So he was part of a dynasty and has won 2 finals MVP? Kobe is head and shoulders over Lebron. Even Jordan said Kobe is the only guy that can be compared to him. Quit sweating bron as if he's accomplished more than he has.
Thanks for the laugh. :laugh2:

Yea I guess you're right, 81 points, 5 rings, 62 points in 3 quarters, killer mentality.

zn23
06-13-2013, 02:20 AM
The Spurs have always been severely underrated. Even during their glory days.

It's hilarious how many Lakers fans are all of a sudden Spurs fans. Especially since for years they were the one's who primarily hated on the Spurs, and called them overrated.

It proves how stupid the fan base really is.

They are all of a sudden Spurs fans because of their fear of LeBron. LeBron winning another Finals MVP, will pretty much end the discussion of Kobe vs. LeBron, if not give LeBron a significant boost.

What they fail to realize is that Duncan winning his 5th ring will definitively place him over Kobe in the rankings, if he isn't ranked higher already.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:28 AM
Hollinger once again predicted the Heat to win it all...

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Funny how he picks whatever team Lebron is on since 2009 to win it all...hmmmm And still none of you will admit to any sort of bias what so ever.

False, if you actually read the link you posted, his stats projected the Thunder to win it all. That was based on regular season performance however, which is open to critique.

And show us this bias you speak of.

Snapshot
06-13-2013, 03:42 AM
Lebron will have the weirdest legacy ever when its all said and done, so many positives, yet so many negatives.

Kobe = Brady
Lebron = Manning (choke artists)
MJ = Montana

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 04:51 AM
Lebron will have the weirdest legacy ever when its all said and done, so many positives, yet so many negatives.

Kobe = Brady
Lebron = Manning (choke artists)
MJ = Montana

Except Brady wins MVP's, and is the reason for his rings and wins.

You got Manning right... More because Peyton like LBJ has been surrounded by crap teams for most of his career.

Montana and MJ is like the worst comparison I've ever heard.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 04:52 AM
For the record Manning has a better QBR than Brady in the playoffs.

Just proves you don't know anything about 2 sports congrats.

amos1er
06-13-2013, 05:53 AM
False, if you actually read the link you posted, his stats projected the Thunder to win it all. That was based on regular season performance however, which is open to critique.

And show us this bias you speak of.

I stand corrected. I honestly missed that when I glanced over the page. Anyways, thats not his personal prediction for the finals and as you said it's based on computer data that was derived from regular season performance. I looked everywhere, but can't for the life of me find who he picked to win the finals. Kinda hard now that he doesn't work for ESPN anymore. Either way, I would bet that he is going with the Heat as he always does and as he did in his NBA insider at the beginning of the season. I am not a member so I can't find the link, but I do remember him saying that. His homeboy Abbott is going Heat in 7 and they are usually on the same page for the most part.

As far as the bias, obviously I don't have any footage or articles of him saying what teams and players he likes and dislikes, though I'm sure he has a bias toward the Grizz for sure nowadays. I can only go off trends. Now you can counter and say that he is going off numbers, but some of his recent predictions concerning the Lebron and the Lakers/Kobe have been very odd to me.

For starters, he is usually somewhat accurate compared to his colleagues, but in the specific case of his predictions in regards to the teams Lebron is on and the Lakers, he has been way off. Both Laker titles he predicted them going out in the WCF, and he predicted Lebron winning a ring every year starting from 2009 till present. He is 1/4 concerning Lebron, and 0/2 concerning the Lakers two championships for a grand total of 1/6 in that specific area.

The Laker predictions are very odd to me considering most favored the Lakers in 2009 and 2010. Seemed like easy pics to me, yet he missed both and whats really weird is that he predicted they would lose to the likes of the Nuggets and the Suns...both teams that seemed like they would easily be underdogs to the Lakers according to most experts. I find that odd really as he has a reputation for being more accurate than most, but I'm sure he can fall back on some numbers to justify them...Though I haven't found any rational explanations for those series in particular. As for his 1/4 accuracy with his Lebron predictions...I really find it odd that a guy who beat vegas odds can have such a low accuracy when Lebron comes into the equation. Surely you can't fault me for thinking that there might be a hint of wishful thinking on his part. Again, I am not saying that Hollinger has a bias for certain, I just find certain trends odd...especially when it comes to Lebron and the Lakers/Kobe.

Now, Do I believe that Hollinger made up these stats to favor Lebron. No, that would be extremely presumptuous. I do have a theory however, and it may or may not be true, but hear me out...

Hollinger has an ego just like the rest of us, and his just quite possibly might be larger than the average man's because he is a very smart and accomplished individual in comparison. I say that because most people at the top of their respective fields do have significantly larger egos for the most part. That said, I feel that he is very proud of his statistical formulas and stands by them. Lebron James is a player who is very accomplished statistically...In fact, he is the most statistically accomplished player of his generation according to Hollingers statistical formulas. Therefore, Hollinger has a vested interest for him to do well and win championships as it would prove him to be even more of a genius than certain people already consider him to be. There in lies the framework for a possible bias.

It's the same thing how when people say that Phil Jackson mostly emphasizes rings and championships when determining greatness only because he is the biggest beneficiary of that logic. Phil has the most rings, so naturally it's a pretty convenient stance for him to take and people call him out for it. Similarly, Hollinger mostly emphasizes statistical prowess, mostly within his own formulas, when determining greatness. So naturally he is going to advocate in favor of whatever player most lives up to that...which happens to be Lebron James. So one can deduce that Hollinger has a vested interest in Lebron the same way they can about Phil concerning his rings argument. As for Kobe...he has usually not lived up to his status as one of the best to ever play the game according to Hollingers formulas. Naturally, Hollinger isn't going to advocate for him and in some instances, pick against him where as others who don't rely heavily on stats will pick in favor of him. So I guess what I am saying is that there is a justification for Hollinger to have a possible bias (whether conscious or sub-conscious) against Kobe and that Lakers and in favor of Lebron seeing as Kobe's success goes against the very foundation of his formulas and Lebron's success would further justify them. Hence we have the foundation for a plausible modus operandi.

HYFR
06-13-2013, 06:05 AM
Lebron: "a team is not gonna make me do something on the court that I don't wanna do"

Pop: " ummm we'll see about that"

MyDRoseLikeDeng
06-13-2013, 06:30 AM
For the record Manning has a better QBR than Brady in the playoffs.

Just proves you don't know anything about 2 sports congrats.

Gosh, I thought it was a solid comparison. No need to be all pissy about it, and Kobe got robbed of a couple MVP's so the comparison to Brady is fair

chipurmunki
06-13-2013, 07:14 AM
lebron is a great individual athlete. he shoulda played golf, or tennis, or ping pong. he has the ability to take the team on his shoulders, a la mj, BUT he rarely does. except for in garbage time. he disappears when the going gets tough. it's a shame, really, that he craves the spotlight so damn much when it doesn't matter at all (bullwinkle voice "blah blah take blah blah southbeach) that he disappears when it should matter the most (finals).

yet another 'me first' athlete. sports already has too many of them, King Le Blow Job is just another one.

SanAntonioSpurs23
06-13-2013, 09:36 AM
Lebron James in the top ten already? :laugh:

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 12:16 PM
+1

hes healthy, dude gets up high a lot of times, hes just declining and it seems he hasn't been working on his game past few years and is getting exposed this year(and last years playoffs)

Buckets agreeing with me?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 12:26 PM
Reaching the finals 3 years in a row is usually considered a remarkable feat.

The achievement however is tarnished by the fact that 2 of their 3 best players left their original teams and that all 3 conspired to form a superteam to get there.

If they lose 2 of 3, the achievement is tarnished even further.

And that's not to mention all of the pathetic bandwagonners who were never heat fans to begin with, but bosh or lebron fans, and/or weak spined girlie men who chase elite teams like prepubescent girls chase boy band fairies with frosted highlights in their hair.
Great post.

this delusionist guy is really something else. i'm just surprised he hasn't brought up his favorite lebron bashing argument in here yet (failing to win gold on team usa the one time) lol.
Two* failed attempts :)

Vegas odds...

Below are the complete betting odds for each team at the start of the 2013 NBA playoffs.

Miami Heat 2/3

Oklahoma City Thunder 4/1

San Antonio Spurs 10/1

New York Knicks 15/1

Denver Nuggets 22/1

Los Angeles Clippers 22/1

Indiana Pacers 22/1

Memphis Grizzlies 35/1

Los Angeles Lakers 40/1

Brooklyn Nets 50/1

Chicago Bulls 50/1

Boston Celtics 60/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Atlanta Hawks 125/1

Milwaukee Bucks 300/1

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-playoffs-...inals-1201127#How dare you question Chrona while he's on his high horse.


Check out the ESPN panel of predictions...

only 4 out of the 18 predicted the Spurs...even knowing that Wade isn't 100%.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/matchup/_/teams/spurs-heatAnother reason why the Heat are the favorites.


Hollinger once again predicted the Heat to win it all...

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Funny how he picks whatever team Lebron is on since 2009 to win it all...hmmmm And still none of you will admit to any sort of bias what so ever.Hollinger is god only when the stats defend their argument.


Really? So he was part of a dynasty and has won 2 finals MVP? Kobe is head and shoulders over Lebron. Even Jordan said Kobe is the only guy that can be compared to him. Quit sweating bron as if he's accomplished more than he has.
Thanks for the laugh. :laugh2:
+1

Lebron James in the top ten already? :laugh:

According to Ballhog he is:laugh:. These Lebron fans are to funny.

b@llhog24
06-13-2013, 12:32 PM
Great post.

Two* failed attempts :)
How dare you question Chrona while he's on his high horse.

Another reason why the Heat are the favorites.

Hollinger is god only when the stats defend their argument.


+1


According to Ballhog he is:laugh:. These Lebron fans are to funny.

Yet I'm pulling for the Spurs, try harder next time. And I'd like to see your argument against why he shouldn't be in the top 10.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 12:34 PM
Vegas odds...

Below are the complete betting odds for each team at the start of the 2013 NBA playoffs.

Miami Heat 2/3

Oklahoma City Thunder 4/1

San Antonio Spurs 10/1

New York Knicks 15/1

Denver Nuggets 22/1

Los Angeles Clippers 22/1

Indiana Pacers 22/1

Memphis Grizzlies 35/1

Los Angeles Lakers 40/1

Brooklyn Nets 50/1

Chicago Bulls 50/1

Boston Celtics 60/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Atlanta Hawks 125/1

Milwaukee Bucks 300/1

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-playoffs-...inals-1201127#

Like Ive said before, subjective and unscientific unless you can break down how they arrive to their conclusion. And how their results have fared over the barometers employed by those in the NBA. Somehow doubt thats possible, but keep trying to see what sticks.


No, I just said that might have had something to do with Lebron's choke form the previous year. Oh and BTW, Hollinger also predicted Heat in 6.
Interesting, I did not realize that Vegas went with HCA+Subjectivity. I honestly dont think Vegas would let emotions dictate a large% of their odds, I think they would look at the history of the game and realize that star players usually dont follow a consistent choke trend.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 12:36 PM
Hollinger is god only when the stats defend their argument.


Proof? You do realize that link suggests nothing of the sort right?

Chronz
06-13-2013, 12:37 PM
Yet I'm pulling for the Spurs, try harder next time. And I'd like to see your argument against why he shouldn't be in the top 10.

Whats your 10 look like?

Chronz
06-13-2013, 12:53 PM
+1

hes healthy, dude gets up high a lot of times, hes just declining and it seems he hasn't been working on his game past few years and is getting exposed this year(and last years playoffs)

Either way hes not the star he used to be, one simply means its based on health the other means hes aged. But tell me, have you ever seen someone "age" as rapidly as Wade has during this post season? Why did he miss a playoff game to rest if hes healthy?


"Getting up high alot of times" means his jumping ability is fine, it doesn't mean ALL aspects of his athleticism are there.

SlapintheClip
06-13-2013, 12:54 PM
Yes, he won't pass him, getting beat by a player on the finals twice doesn't look good

MickeyMgl
06-13-2013, 12:55 PM
Yep. But the idea that a "legacy" is in any way official or universally agreed upon is silly. I might value things that you don't, and that's fine. Losing in the Finals 3 times, being on the team with the best regular season record 3 times and not winning in those seasons...$%$ adds up.

This is what I came for. I couldn't care less how many times a player's team loses in the Finals - no points lost for finishing 2nd - but how many players have been on THREE teams with the best regular season record that didn't win a championship?

Chronz
06-13-2013, 01:07 PM
Chronz, I can tell you are enjoying this lol.


You just gotta admire the audacity of the moment sometimes. But most of the time its unnerving but still interesting.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 01:10 PM
Yet I'm pulling for the Spurs, try harder next time. And I'd like to see your argument against why he shouldn't be in the top 10.

I bet you are.
There is no argument to have him any where near the top 10, why would I need to make a case for why he should be excluded from the top 10?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 01:12 PM
Either way hes not the star he used to be, one simply means its based on health the other means hes aged. But tell me, have you ever seen someone "age" as rapidly as Wade has during this post season? Why did he miss a playoff game to rest if hes healthy?


"Getting up high alot of times" means his jumping ability is fine, it doesn't mean ALL aspects of his athleticism are there.

Rapid declines happen bruh. Take Pau Vagsol for example.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 01:22 PM
Yes, he won't pass him, getting beat by a player on the finals twice doesn't look good
+1

This is what I came for. I couldn't care less how many times a player's team loses in the Finals - no points lost for finishing 2nd - but how many players have been on THREE teams with the best regular season record that didn't win a championship?

+2

DChibes
06-13-2013, 01:35 PM
Uh no he didn't. Maybe if you watched the game you'd understand more than just looking up stats...

Yes he hasn't scored well but he's played excellent defense all series long... He got hot when it counted in game 2, and he's done a phenomenal job at distributing the basketball..

Game 3 was the only game you could say Lebron had a bad game. Sure he's not scoring as much, but he played great in game 1 and 2...

You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and once again you sound like you don't watch basketball. Just Kobe in the shower.

Dude you sound like YOU do not watch basketball...yea thats great LeBron is getting assists but what you dont get is that getting assists is not his role. If we were talking Steve Nash then yea these number would work. But its LeBron James, the Best in the league right now. He is not there to facilitate an offence, he is there to score and be The Man. So far in this series he has not done that. Sure he has decent numbers, but they do not fit his role. Every player has a role and LeBron is shying away from his. Real superstars play like superstars when it counts and LeBron has not done that.

I lost all respect for LeBron's character after he won his first championship. After going to the Heat and saying "not 4, not 5, not 6,.." he won his ring and said he accomplished his goal. That is a man that is scared right there. He realized that winning was not as easy as he thought and he lowered his goal drastically. Very weak in heart.

Nick O
06-13-2013, 01:39 PM
.... since when has lebron not been ahead of duncan?

Eg714
06-13-2013, 02:05 PM
No lebron would not pass Ducan, unless he were to win 2-5 more rings depending on the situation.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 02:11 PM
.... since when has lebron not been ahead of duncan?

:facepalm: Since forever.Duncan is a top 8 player all time.

Nick O
06-13-2013, 03:45 PM
:facepalm: Since forever.Duncan is a top 8 player all time.

im really not a lebron fan by any means.... but.. Duncan has some fantastic seasons and is one of the greatest big men of all time... but even with all that being said he hasnt had seasons comparable to lebron .. and so what if the heat lose this year. they are still gonna be the favorites next year and the year after... alot of things lebron does get on my nerves, but its pretty hard to deny how spectacular of a player he is. just look at this years numbers...

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 03:59 PM
im really not a lebron fan by any means.... but.. Duncan has some fantastic seasons and is one of the greatest big men of all time... but even with all that being said he hasnt had seasons comparable to lebron .. and so what if the heat lose this year. they are still gonna be the favorites next year and the year after... alot of things lebron does get on my nerves, but its pretty hard to deny how spectacular of a player he is. just look at this years numbers...

Where do you rank Lebron all time then?

ewmania
06-13-2013, 04:14 PM
Damn, haters EVERYWHERE on this forum. Nobody ever try to at least be unbiased?

Lebron is the greatest player we've seen in the game for years. Championships are a reflection on teams NOT individuals. No individual has EVER won a championship on their own.

And this is only one year, he has many more years to win championships.

And why are we discussing this before the series is even over? This is just a shameful display of ignorance and hatred fueled mostly by jealousy and boredom.

lol if thats the case monti ellis should be in the top 10 of best players in the league

ewmania
06-13-2013, 04:16 PM
:facepalm: Since forever.Duncan is a top 8 player all time.

exactly duncan without a doubt is the best PF of all time... even barkley and malone themselves with tell you this

when you think about SF's there's always a argument about bird being better... in my opinion bird is better because despite bird's 3 rings his season stats were out of this world as well

50% FG, 40% 3pt, 90% FT in one season

Nick O
06-13-2013, 07:08 PM
Where do you rank Lebron all time then?

i dunno.. its a tough call for me.. behind Jordan for sure,people never put wilt on their lists beause of his level of opponent.. but hes up there for me. i feel like its too early to put him ahead of guys like Kareem and magic, and even kobe at the moment. but hes on pace to probably be a top 5 when hes all done.. maybe top 3 .. ALOT of people will argue top 2

YoungOne
06-13-2013, 07:11 PM
this thread is garbage :)

Tony_Starks
06-13-2013, 07:28 PM
i dunno.. its a tough call for me.. behind Jordan for sure,people never put wilt on their lists beause of his level of opponent.. but hes up there for me. i feel like its too early to put him ahead of guys like Kareem and magic, and even kobe at the moment. but hes on pace to probably be a top 5 when hes all done.. maybe top 3 .. ALOT of people will argue top 2

You would seriously think about putting him top 5? Players like Magic and Kobe failed in the Finals but came back and redeemed themselves with multiple chips. So IF he loses this year he would have to come back and dominate minimum 3 finals for me to put him up there. 1 for 4 finals with 2 chokes looks horrible on your résumé when you talk all-time greats.

zn23
06-13-2013, 07:45 PM
i dunno.. its a tough call for me.. behind Jordan for sure,people never put wilt on their lists beause of his level of opponent.. but hes up there for me. i feel like its too early to put him ahead of guys like Kareem and magic, and even kobe at the moment. but hes on pace to probably be a top 5 when hes all done.. maybe top 3 .. ALOT of people will argue top 2

I agree, It's too early to put him over Kareem and Magic of course. He may not even reach those players, who knows, but he's certainly catching up to them. But he's definitely surpassed Kobe. There is a very short list of players who have 4 MVP's and 1 finals MVP, and Kobe is definitely not one of them. And statistically, there has never been a player since Michael, that has put up numbers like LeBron. Not even Shaq or Duncan, have consistently put up numbers like LeBron has since 2007. Having 4 seasons with a PER of over 30. His WS/48 of 0.241 ranks him in the top 10 all time. He's doing things that Magic never did.

Currently I have him ranked 11th or 12th all time, Kobe at 15.

If he gets a ring this year with a Finals MVP, he is definitely going into the top 10.

h2r09
06-13-2013, 07:47 PM
I love how people have these formulas how lebron can get into their own personal top 5. who cares? he is a great player just enjoy what you are watching.

amos1er
06-13-2013, 08:07 PM
I agree, It's too early to put him over Kareem and Magic of course. He may not even reach those players, who knows, but he's certainly catching up to them. But he's definitely surpassed Kobe. There is a very short list of players who have 4 MVP's and 1 finals MVP, and Kobe is definitely not one of them. And statistically, there has never been a player since Michael, that has put up numbers like LeBron. Not even Shaq or Duncan, have consistently put up numbers like LeBron has since 2007. Having 4 seasons with a PER of over 30. His WS/48 of 0.241 ranks him in the top 10 all time. He's doing things that Magic never did.

Currently I have him ranked 11th or 12th all time, Kobe at 15.

If he gets a ring this year with a Finals MVP, he is definitely going into the top 10.

:laugh: Using regular season Hollinger stats to justify Lebron being top ten of all time.

zn23
06-14-2013, 12:02 AM
LeBron is 2 games away from getting a permanent spot in the top 10 all time! Wow we are lucky to see such a once in a life time player.

b@llhog24
06-14-2013, 12:20 AM
Whats your 10 look like?

MJ
KAJ
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe/Chuck/DRob/Russell
Bron

RiceOnTheRun
06-14-2013, 07:29 AM
Hollinger once again predicted the Heat to win it all...

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

Funny how he picks whatever team Lebron is on since 2009 to win it all...hmmmm And still none of you will admit to any sort of bias what so ever.

2010, it was the almost everyone's prediction for it to be a Cavs/Lakers matchup.

2011, the Heat were the clear favorites to win. They should've and would've, if not for Lebron, nobody can argue with that.

2012, doubts after last year's finals but still the favorite to make it out of the East at least, won it that year.

2013, after winning last year, nobody could doubt the Heat were the best in the East. Most reporters picked either the Lakers (LOL) or the Heat.