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View Full Version : Prime Kobe or prime Lebron?



enitialdee
06-10-2013, 05:46 PM
Not sure if this tread already exist, but oh well, its always a good debate. You are a gm of a bottom feeding team with a bunch of scrub players, but have max cap room to sign either LBJ or KB in their prime. Who would you sign to build your team around??? GO!!!

JordansBulls
06-29-2013, 07:39 PM
How long of a contract am I getting for each guy?

mweb08
07-02-2013, 03:42 PM
Definitely LeBron. He's easily the better player and is a better teammate imo. Look what James did with those mediocre Cavs teams. I think the floor for a team with James is higher than it is with Kobe and both can obviously win titles as the best player.

Oh, and James' D now is better than Kobe's ever was as Bryant was generally overrated in that regard.

Size and durability favor James too.

bagwell368
07-03-2013, 06:30 AM
James and as the prior poster indicates - it's not even very close.

todu82
07-03-2013, 02:31 PM
Prime Lebron.

ManRam
07-03-2013, 05:54 PM
I don't think it's a debate anymore as to who was the better player in their respective primes. I can think of a few small arguments for Kobe, but it's not enough/.

WadeKobe
07-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Can we put the Kobe Myth to bed already? LeBron buries him, and with the next year of two these numbers may grow.

5-Year Peaks

Wins Produced:
Kobe: 70.8 (.221 WP48)
Jordan: 140.9 (.426 WP48)
Magic: 130.6 (.453 WP48)
James: 127.0 (.410 WP48)

Win Shares:
Kobe: 64.3 (.200 WP48)
Jordan: 98.0 (.296 WS48)
Magic: 74.8 (..251 WS48)
James: 91.6 (.296 WS48)

Estimated Wins Added:
Kobe: 111.1 (25.0 PER)
Jordan: 159.8 (30.7 PER)
Magic: 108.8 (25.8 PER)
James: 147.2 (30.4 PER)

Net Rating:
Kobe: +8
Jordan: +20
Magic: +17
James: +20

Finals:
Kobe: 2-1 (2 MVP) led 1 of his 3 finals teams in Wins Produced.
Jordan: 2-0 (2 MVP) led 2 of his 2 finals teams in Wins Produced.
Magic: 2-2 (1 MVP) led 4 of his 4 finals teams in Wins Produced.
James: 2-1 (2 MVP) led 3 of his 3 finals teams in Wins Produced.

League Leader in Wins Produced:
Kobe: 0 (0x top5)
Jordan: 3 (5x top5)
Magic: 1 (4x top5)
James: 2 (5x top5)

League Leader in Win Shares:
Kobe: 0 (3x top5)
Jordan: 5 (5x top5)
Magic: 0 (4x top5)
James: 5 (5x top5)

MVP Awards:
Kobe: 1
Jordan: 3
Magic: 2
James: 4

One of these things is not like the other things...

WadeKobe
07-03-2013, 09:02 PM
A much better comparison for prime years is Dwyane Wade.


Wins Produced:
Wade: 85.7 (.324 WP48)
Kobe: 70.8 (.221 WP48)

Win Shares:
Wade: 57.8 (.219 WS48)
Kobe: 64.3 (.200 WS48)

Estimated Wins Added:
Wade: 104.7 (27.1 PER)
Kobe: 111.1 (25.0 PER)

Net Rating:
Wade: +10
Kobe: +8

Finals:
Wade: 2-1 (0 MVP) led 0 of his 3 finals teams in Wins Produced.
Kobe: 2-1 (2 MVP) led 1 of his 3 finals teams in Wins Produced.

League Leader in Wins Produced:
Wade: 0 (1x top5)
Kobe: 0 (0x top5)

League Leader in Win Shares:
Wade: 0 (2x top5)
Kobe: 0 (3x top5)

MVP Awards:
Wade: 0
Kobe: 1

slashsnake
07-08-2013, 05:38 PM
Bunch of scrubs and Lebron all the way.

No offense to Kobe, but when Shaq left we saw him and a bunch of scrubs, 3 years before Pau showed up and they were under .500 those years, while he was playing pretty amazing basketball.

And we saw Lebron with a bunch of scrubs in Cleveland (set the record for consecutive losses the second he left). They were a 50+ win team and title contender.

JordansBulls
07-13-2013, 06:02 PM
Bunch of scrubs and Lebron all the way.

No offense to Kobe, but when Shaq left we saw him and a bunch of scrubs, 3 years before Pau showed up and they were under .500 those years, while he was playing pretty amazing basketball.

And we saw Lebron with a bunch of scrubs in Cleveland (set the record for consecutive losses the second he left). They were a 50+ win team and title contender.

You are comparing the West to the East though. Not the same.

ShowtimeNo24
07-14-2013, 08:45 AM
You are comparing the West to the East though. Not the same.

Yeah, the East was very weak at that time.

slashsnake
07-14-2013, 01:32 PM
You are comparing the West to the East though. Not the same.

I took their records vs. the East and West in those three years, reversed the # of games and multiplied by their winning % vs. that conference (gave them 30 games vs. the West and 52 vs. the East instead). The average came out to 42 wins a year (remember one year in that stretch they were worse against the East than the West). That's about the same as Boston's record in the East this year.

That would be a pace for 126 wins in the East rather than their 121 wins in the West in those three years. Or the equivalent of slightly behind the Washington Wizards record in that same time span for a comparable NBA east team.

Or you could compare their record to the Sonics and Clippers of the time. They were nearly identical West teams.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2013, 08:09 PM
Lebron easily. He has posted 5 years (more actually) better than anything Kobe has produced.

LBJ6
07-19-2013, 05:32 AM
Lebron.

Jtirado16
07-19-2013, 05:34 AM
Kobe, but not by much

SteBO
07-19-2013, 10:52 AM
This isn't much of a debate. LeBron very easily.

b@llhog24
07-22-2013, 05:53 PM
LeBron James. It's not even close, at all.

lamzoka
07-27-2013, 03:33 PM
LeBron and its not even close.

Kobe is overrated

Pablonovi
07-31-2013, 09:41 PM
LeBron IS CLIMBING THE ALL-TIME TOP 10 LADDER

In Both BEST 5-YEAR PRIME and OVER-ALL CAREER: LeBron has already passed Kobe.
Love Kobe and definitely have him in my All-Time Top 10; but LeBron is no longer going up against him. Because as Hawkeye says, he's already got 5+ years better than Kobe's best.

LeBron is already just on the outside of the All-Time Top 5 Career-Wise and 5-Year Peak-wise.
It's almost inevitable that LeBron breaks into the Top 5 in both respects. I'd say one more Great year (extending his Peak further) gets him there.

My Career-Wise All-Time Top 3 are:
1. KAJ (6 Reg. MVPs, 10 Finals (6 Chips + 4 other Finals); 18 Top-3 Center Years; most Great Years ever)
2. Magic (3 Reg. MVPs, 8 Finals (5 Chips + 3 other Finals); best teammate ever)
3. MJ. (5 Reg. MVPs, 6 Finals (6 Chips w 6fMVPs))

IF LeBron gets at least 3 more Chips (thus at least 5 Chips plus 2 Finals-Losers) AND 1 more Regular Season MVPs (thus at least 5 MVPs) then he's at least 4th All-Time (for me).

IF LeBron gets to 6 Chips (plus his 2 Finals-Losers) AND to 6 Reg. Season MVPs then he's at least my #2 All-Time (because he:
equals MJ's Chips and beats his Reg. Season MVPs; and beats Magic's Chips and MVPs.

Anything additional "hardware" would put him past KAJ in my book.

AND 5+ Year PEAK-Wise?
My Top 4 (in no order are): Wilt, KAJ, MJ and LeBron.
But on this topic I'm looking forward to more informed comments.

P.S. Let's keep in mind also that LeBron probably took the weakest set of teammates ever to the NBA Finals; that's NOT a small achievement.

JordansBulls
08-05-2013, 04:30 PM
Lebron easily. He has posted 5 years (more actually) better than anything Kobe has produced.

Which 5 seasons? 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and which other?

hidalgo
08-08-2013, 07:46 PM
Lebron James by far

jerellh528
08-10-2013, 11:23 PM
KOBE by a landslide, not even close IMHO. Lebron is overrated.

bagwell368
08-11-2013, 06:12 AM
KOBE by a landslide, not even close IMHO. Lebron is overrated.

Nonsense. James is a better rebounder, passer, defender, and less of a ball hog. James has been the undisputed "man" for his rings, and Kobe hasn't been for his.

If the thread was about the entire career of both, it would be a much closer argument, but peak? Kobe doesn't have it.

slashsnake
08-11-2013, 07:10 AM
Which 5 seasons? 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and which other?

Maybe 07/08 then? The year he led the league in scoring, 7.2 assists per game, 7.9 boards per game, over a block and nearly 2 steals per game on better than 48% shooting? I know Kobe was MVP that year, but Lebron was the better scorer that season and bested him in every single category statistically (including efficiency rating and win shares).

jerellh528
08-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Nonsense. James is a better rebounder, passer, defender, and less of a ball hog. James has been the undisputed "man" for his rings, and Kobe hasn't been for his.

If the thread was about the entire career of both, it would be a much closer argument, but peak? Kobe doesn't have it.
This is a nonsensical post.

seikou8
08-11-2013, 08:41 PM
This is a nonsensical post.

great argument really showed him

jerellh528
08-11-2013, 10:19 PM
great argument really showed him

Fight fire with fire, I always say.

Pablonovi
08-12-2013, 12:19 AM
Nonsense. James is a better rebounder, passer, defender, and less of a ball hog. James has been the undisputed "man" for his rings, and Kobe hasn't been for his.

If the thread was about the entire career of both, it would be a much closer argument, but peak? Kobe doesn't have it.

I agree completely with you; especially the last sentence.

tbron
08-13-2013, 01:27 AM
LeBron and it's no contest at this point.

mexican dodger
08-13-2013, 01:30 AM
Kobe...5 rings and more coming

rjkgr
08-27-2013, 05:38 PM
but if u put both wade and lebron together they dont make up the number of clutch shots Kobe has made and they both cant shoot the ball and they get lay-ups and dunks i would still take kobe

Playoff_Choker
08-31-2013, 10:58 PM
Lebron easily. Kobe is great, but Lebron is just better.

SportsFanatic10
09-02-2013, 11:19 PM
but if u put both wade and lebron together they dont make up the number of clutch shots Kobe has made and they both cant shoot the ball and they get lay-ups and dunks i would still take kobe

this makes no sense. they aren't selfish players like kobe, together they haven't attempted the number of clutch shots kobe has taken either. they look for the best shot for the team more often than not, whereas kobe looks to be the hero at the expense of the team more often than not. also they're both better passers and layups and dunks are higher percentage and better shots than jumpers. and lebron certainly has proven to be a good shooter now, that is no longer a weakness for him.

now that that foolishness is out of the way, prime lebron is EASILY better than prime kobe, there honestly really isn't a debate to be had. prime wade and prime kobe is a better debate, and kobe still loses that one.

Pablonovi
09-07-2013, 03:16 PM
this makes no sense. they aren't selfish players like kobe, together they haven't attempted the number of clutch shots kobe has taken either. they look for the best shot for the team more often than not, whereas kobe looks to be the hero at the expense of the team more often than not. also they're both better passers and layups and dunks are higher percentage and better shots than jumpers. and lebron certainly has proven to be a good shooter now, that is no longer a weakness for him.

now that that foolishness is out of the way, prime lebron is EASILY better than prime kobe, there honestly really isn't a debate to be had. prime wade and prime kobe is a better debate, and kobe still loses that one.


this makes no sense. they aren't selfish players like kobe, together they haven't attempted the number of clutch shots kobe has taken either. they look for the best shot for the team more often than not, whereas kobe looks to be the hero at the expense of the team more often than not. also they're both better passers and layups and dunks are higher percentage and better shots than jumpers. and lebron certainly has proven to be a good shooter now, that is no longer a weakness for him.

now that that foolishness is out of the way, prime lebron is EASILY better than prime kobe, there honestly really isn't a debate to be had. prime wade and prime kobe is a better debate, and kobe still loses that one.

Hey SportsFanatic,

On the one hand, Kobe doesn't even "need" to compete with such a monster Peak. Kobe's greatest individual claim to fame is his astonishingly long level of year-by-year Top-5 greatness. I wouldn't be surprised if, if not this year, next year, he adds to that. Only KAJ and perhaps Karl Malone still have Kobe beat for # of Top-Quality Years. For me, that counts as much as Peak, in evaluating overall careers in terms of the GOAT-discussion.

On the other hand, LeBron. Yeah, imo LeBron's peak is already All-Time Top 5. BUT, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if THIS YEAR he is even better; i.e., that this will be his best year so far. I bet he does shoot better from the 3 - which by itself will be huge - he will be offensively totally unstoppable; even double-teams will be wasted on him. You try to stop him deep, he bulls his way thru the double and either dishes to wide open teammates AT their sweet spots, or takes it to the rim. You can't ever double-team any of his teammates because of his 3-ball threat.

His defense will, at least, remain Top 5 in the League. And his overall FEEL for the game and his teammates should still be improving (and their's for him) - they haven't been together all that long yet.

Overall, I'm "predicting" his upcoming season will be one of the greatest of all time; taking his (new) 5+ -year Peak even higher. IF he follows next year for 5 Great-Quality years and adds 3 Chips; he'd challenge KAJ as my GOAT.

SportsFanatic10
09-07-2013, 04:21 PM
Hey SportsFanatic,

On the one hand, Kobe doesn't even "need" to compete with such a monster Peak. Kobe's greatest individual claim to fame is his astonishingly long level of year-by-year Top-5 greatness. I wouldn't be surprised if, if not this year, next year, he adds to that. Only KAJ and perhaps Karl Malone still have Kobe beat for # of Top-Quality Years. For me, that counts as much as Peak, in evaluating overall careers in terms of the GOAT-discussion.

On the other hand, LeBron. Yeah, imo LeBron's peak is already All-Time Top 5. BUT, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if THIS YEAR he is even better; i.e., that this will be his best year so far. I bet he does shoot better from the 3 - which by itself will be huge - he will be offensively totally unstoppable; even double-teams will be wasted on him. You try to stop him deep, he bulls his way thru the double and either dishes to wide open teammates AT their sweet spots, or takes it to the rim. You can't ever double-team any of his teammates because of his 3-ball threat.

His defense will, at least, remain Top 5 in the League. And his overall FEEL for the game and his teammates should still be improving (and their's for him) - they haven't been together all that long yet.

Overall, I'm "predicting" his upcoming season will be one of the greatest of all time; taking his (new) 5+ -year Peak even higher. IF he follows next year for 5 Great-Quality years and adds 3 Chips; he'd challenge KAJ as my GOAT.

i agree about kobe having a great career because of his consistency and longevity, but the thread asks who is better in their prime. so that doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread. i agree that lebron will probably be even better this year, might not shoot better from 3 though, it's gonna be tough to beat nearly 41%. i expect his free throw shooting to make a nice improvement though, he talked about really working on that this offseason.

Pablonovi
09-10-2013, 09:07 PM
i agree about kobe having a great career because of his consistency and longevity, but the thread asks who is better in their prime. so that doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread. i agree that lebron will probably be even better this year, might not shoot better from 3 though, it's gonna be tough to beat nearly 41%. i expect his free throw shooting to make a nice improvement though, he talked about really working on that this offseason.

Hey SportsFanatic10,
Yes, of course you're right about the OP emphasis on Peak.
About LeBron's 3-point shooting. What I had more in mind is not so much a large increase in % (you can't beat 41% by a large amount realistically). BUT, last year was his first where he had moved into the top ranks of 3-point shooters. I'm suggesting he both improves that percent slightly (moving him to the top of the top) AND shoot it more frequently. This combo would be an impressive improvement because, among other things, it'd neutralize any defensive schemes AND maximize what the Heat get from his teammates. They'll be (much) more machine like than ever - I can't wait to see that.

Elsewhere, we've got this "Make a bold prediction for next season" thread. Mine is:
LeBron in 2013-2014 has THE best NBA season ever: best PER, PLUS most completely-dominant in an all-sided way (offensive, defense, teamwork, and more-decidedly superior to Durant and everyone else).

IF so, then what people talk about as his Peak, will be redefined once again.

jstone0716
09-19-2013, 06:16 PM
Lebron by a looooong shot. And Prime T-Mac. And pre-prime KD over Prime Kobe. Guys nothing more than a glorified ballhog about on par with Carmelo Anthony and he gets compared to MJ. Ridiculous