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View Full Version : When did the myth of Kobe Bryant's defense begin?



nba pundit
06-11-2013, 12:15 PM
I'm just wondering. I watch kobe play defense now a days and it is a joke. It has been this was for years now, too. People always say "he can go into shutdown mode when he wants to", but i never see it. He seems like the derek jeter of NBA. jeter would win gold gloves purely out of reputation and popularity. Has kobe ever been THAT great of a defender? when did this myth begin?

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 12:23 PM
Imo he was above average, he was never great though.. Over the years I have seen PG's repeatedly shred the Lakers in the playoffs & regular season, from Steve Nash to Gilbert Arenas to Aaron Brooks to Dragic to CP3

Everyone blew up when he shut down Brandon Jennings lol but when D Wade came in LA and DEMOLISHED there was no more talk of Kobe's defense lol

Pakman
06-11-2013, 12:25 PM
He hasn't been in the league for 17 years or anything. Lulz gtfo.

Chronz
06-11-2013, 12:26 PM
Sorry this is one area you have to surrender respect. Phil Jackson agrees with the majority of us, that Kobes defense is for the most part overrated EXCEPT, in the post season. Thats when he generally stops ball watching and drifting on the perimeter.

His defensive rep began in the 99 playoffs IIRC. Really blossomed when he locked down on Mighty Mouse in the POR series among others. Thats an interesting question tho, Id love to see a hitlist of Kobes best defensive assignments.

6cadi6
06-11-2013, 12:28 PM
When he "single-handedly" won those championships. Oh.

PhillyFaninLA
06-11-2013, 12:39 PM
Kobe was above average but never great on defense. He was never the defensive difference maker, I'm sure some people will say what about on this play, or what about these 10 games, or in game X of the final against....He had his moment but is not and was never a great defender.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2013, 12:42 PM
Kobe was able to lock down anyone when he wanted to. But, his consistency as a defender has never been on par with his consistency as a scorer. During the regular season, he was never a night in, night out elite defender. But come playoffs for most of his career, outside the past couple of post seasons, if a perimeter player on the other team was going off on them, or had the potential to, Kobe did a great job of limiting them.

I do think his defensive reputation, ie, awards, are overrated. Only because of the level of consistency I personally feel one has to achieve to make the all defensive teams.

herewegocubbies
06-11-2013, 12:44 PM
Above average at his prime is about right. Now I'd say average at best.

DoubleDragon
06-11-2013, 12:49 PM
you're kidding right? close this baiter's thread.
moron

D-Leethal
06-11-2013, 12:58 PM
Young Kobe was a stellar defender. As the accolades began stacking up for him the desire to play hungry for 48 minutes on D started to dwindle.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
06-11-2013, 01:04 PM
Sorry this is one area you have to surrender respect. Phil Jackson agrees with the majority of us, that Kobes defense is for the most part overrated EXCEPT, in the post season. Thats when he generally stops ball watching and drifting on the perimeter.

His defensive rep began in the 99 playoffs IIRC. Really blossomed when he locked down on Mighty Mouse in the POR series among others. Thats an interesting question tho, Id love to see a hitlist of Kobes best defensive assignments.

All 5'10" 160 pounds of Damon Stoudemire?

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 01:05 PM
All 5'10" 160 pounds of Damon Stoudemire?

He was a BEAST... I heard he once dropped 60 on Gary Payton

raiderposting
06-11-2013, 01:05 PM
Kobe should have never been a starter, he's more suited as a 9th man in a rotation. Only reason he gets respect is because he was carried by the likes of Shaq, gasol, odom, Rick fox, mark madsen, and slava medvedenko.

jayjay33
06-11-2013, 01:08 PM
Sorry this is one area you have to surrender respect. Phil Jackson agrees with the majority of us, that Kobes defense is for the most part overrated EXCEPT, in the post season. Thats when he generally stops ball watching and drifting on the perimeter.

His defensive rep began in the 99 playoffs IIRC. Really blossomed when he locked down on Mighty Mouse in the POR series among others. Thats an interesting question tho, Id love to see a hitlist of Kobes best defensive assignments.

All 5'10" 160 pounds of Damon Stoudemire?


Wow, really? Damon just minding his own business and boom shots fired. Lol

Swashcuff
06-11-2013, 01:13 PM
Kobe was able to lock down anyone when he wanted to. But, his consistency as a defender has never been on par with his consistency as a scorer. During the regular season, he was never a night in, night out elite defender. But come playoffs for most of his career, outside the past couple of post seasons, if a perimeter player on the other team was going off on them, or had the potential to, Kobe did a great job of limiting them.

I do think his defensive reputation, ie, awards, are overrated. Only because of the level of consistency I personally feel one has to achieve to make the all defensive teams.

Perfectly put, anyone disagreeing with this never watched Kobe Bryant play. Great defensively when he gave 100% effort on that end of the floor but he never really gave that type of effort on a consistent basis.

Swashcuff
06-11-2013, 01:14 PM
Kobe should have never been a starter, he's more suited as a 9th man in a rotation. Only reason he gets respect is because he was carried by the likes of Shaq, gasol, odom, Rick fox, mark madsen, and slava medvedenko.

Don't forget Smush Parker and Kwame Brown they allowed him to score 81 points.

KnickaBocka.44
06-11-2013, 01:17 PM
I'm just wondering. I watch kobe play defense now a days and it is a joke. It has been this was for years now, too. People always say "he can go into shutdown mode when he wants to", but i never see it. He seems like the derek jeter of NBA. jeter would win gold gloves purely out of reputation and popularity. Has kobe ever been THAT great of a defender? when did this myth begin?

And for clarification, the notion that you can win a gold glove on reputation and popularity is laughable. The fact that you use Derek Jeter, one of the greatest to ever play the most difficult defensive position aside from catcher, is disrespectful.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-11-2013, 01:26 PM
Kobe was a arguably a top 5 defender for about 5-7 years now he's just average

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 01:34 PM
Kobe was a arguably a top 5 defender for about 5-7 years now he's just average

There he goes, what took you so long dude?

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 01:35 PM
When Phil was able to consistently put him on the other teams best perimeter player in the playoffs, whether it was a pg or sg and he would routinely shut them down?

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 01:36 PM
Perfectly put, anyone disagreeing with this never watched Kobe Bryant play. Great defensively when he gave 100% effort on that end of the floor but he never really gave that type of effort on a consistent basis.

& Gilbert Arenas was a top 5 player when he gave the effort but no one will remember him as a top 5 player...

akesh99
06-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Kobe was a arguably a top 5 defender for about 5-7 years now he's just average

lol no.

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 01:43 PM
When Phil was able to consistently put him on the other teams best perimeter player in the playoffs, whether it was a pg or sg and he would routinely shut them down?

Like that happened a lot...

Swashcuff
06-11-2013, 01:44 PM
& Gilbert Arenas was a top 5 player when he gave the effort but no one will remember him as a top 5 player...

Gilbert was never a top 5 player when he gave effort because he was too inconsistent even when he gave effort, too reliant on his jumper and wasn't anything to speak of on D, that example you're trying to push is wrong.

When Kobe put work in defensively he was as good as there was at his position over the years.

BearDown1223
06-11-2013, 01:50 PM
Why dont you ask Lebron about KBs D in the ASG?:p

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 01:52 PM
Gilbert was never a top 5 player when he gave effort because he was too inconsistent even when he gave effort, too reliant on his jumper and wasn't anything to speak of on D, that example you're trying to push is wrong.

When Kobe put work in defensively he was as good as there was at his position over the years.

Gilbert Arenas in 2007 was a BEAST... Had very big games against some top teams that year, Wizards at point were the number one seed too

Key word is "When" how many times did Kobe put in the effort or when PG's were torturing LA in the playoffs, he went to Phil Jackson and said "I want him" & then went and shut him down

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-11-2013, 01:54 PM
There he goes, what took you so long dude?

And there u go again hating like its not true like I said he was arguably top 5 not a fact he was he was definitely top 10 though

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-11-2013, 01:55 PM
lol no.

Can you name me 5-7 better defenders then Kobe from 99-2007

ManRam
06-11-2013, 01:58 PM
when he started getting named to all-defense teams...which has forever favored stars over their superior defensive counterparts.

kobe was a tremendous defender though. kinda like wade: could lock anyone down when he wanted, but often didn't care or try.

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Like that happened a lot...

You're right. He never defended Parker, Rondo, Mello, D Will, CP3, Bibby, Bonzi, Pippen, Stoudamire, Reggie Miller, J Kidd, or Iverson in the playoffs/ Finals.

It's all just a huge myth created by everyone in the know in the nba as part of the huge conspiracy to keep Kobe relevant.

koreancabbage
06-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Kobe WAS good. now he's pretty much average - which is good enough but we saw this year, just about any shooting guard could get by Kobe cuz he's relying on Howard and Gasol to block those shots.

FOXHOUND
06-11-2013, 02:04 PM
For short attention span,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1L27tyZI

For long attention span,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uglEL2GLnAU

ManRam
06-11-2013, 02:05 PM
Can you name me 5-7 better defenders then Kobe from 99-2007

payton
bruce bowen
jason kidd
artest
doug christie (seriosuly)

and a ton of big men

some of those might be iffy, but arguments could be made for sure.

jerellh528
06-11-2013, 02:06 PM
when he started getting named to all-defense teams...which has forever favored stars over their superior defensive counterparts.

kobe was a tremendous defender though. kinda like wade: could lock anyone down when he wanted, but often didn't care or try.

Wade was no where close the defender prime Kobe was. Good try tho!

ManRam
06-11-2013, 02:06 PM
Kobe WAS good. now he's pretty much average - which is good enough but we saw this year, just about any shooting guard could get by Kobe cuz he's relying on Howard and Gasol to block those shots.

kobe WAS great. now he's below average.


that's what i'd say. he was a liability on defense this year, period.

ManRam
06-11-2013, 02:10 PM
Wade was no where close the defender prime Kobe was. Good try tho!

measuring individual defense is the hardest thing to do in sports. but i think it was close. advantage kobe, for sure, but my point was that both could dominate when they wanted, but often chose not to.

wade gambled too much in his prime; that was his only weakness. he always guarded the opposing team's best player. he put up tremendous advanced defensive numbers in his prime. he probably is the best shot blocking guard of all time, and i'm not sure i've ever seen a guard who terrorized the passing lanes more than him. he was more of a free safety on defense than a cornerback though.


i'm sure you have no cohesive argument as to why kobe is better...which isn't necessarily a hard thing. it's a hard thing to make quantitative and argue

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 02:18 PM
And there u go again hating like its not true like I said he was arguably top 5 not a fact he was he was definitely top 10 though

I just thought u jumped on every thread with Kobe's name on it ASAP, no hard feelings bro


Can you name me 5-7 better defenders then Kobe from 99-2007

Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Ben Wallace, Dikembe, Payton, Prince, Duncan, O'Neal, Christie, Battier, etc.. A lot more guys were great at just defense and didn't get the credit because they didn't have the offense, Kobe wasn't a bad defender there were just better but he gets put over all of them because he's a better overall player and because of popularity

MassoDio
06-11-2013, 02:22 PM
Can you name me 5-7 better defenders then Kobe from 99-2007

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Bruce Bowen
Shawn Marion
Ron Artest
Ben Wallace
Marcus Camby
Jason Kidd
Shane Battier
Andrei Kirilenko

Those were all better defenders than Kobe at some point or all of the time between 99-2007.

Kobe was a very good defender. He became a better defender in the playoffs.

He is only overrated as a defender if you consider him deserving of all the defensive first teams he has been given, think he was great other than in spot situations (Or certain games), or think he was consistently a high level defensive player.

Kobe just has never been invested in defense on a consistent basis. He was good most of the time, average a lot of the time, disinterested some of the time, and a lock-down defender now and then.

And now, time and games played is just catching up to him. He can't "turn it on" when he wants to as easily anymore.

feelingit
06-11-2013, 02:40 PM
Phil Jackson did not speak highly of Kobe's defense. He basically said he was soft. He goes under screens, plays finese and does not have a powerful upper body and shoulders.

tredigs
06-11-2013, 02:51 PM
payton
bruce bowen
jason kidd
artest
doug christie (seriosuly)

and a ton of big men

some of those might be iffy, but arguments could be made for sure.

...Battier, Garnett, Duncan, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Kirilenko, T-Mac, Pierce, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion, Rasheed, Yao, Camby, Kenyon Martin, Eddie Jones, Big Z...

I don't know I'm getting tired. 25 more. He was a negative defender virtually every year since '02, though still great for stretches of playoff runs for a while longer (an VERY short stretches there after). The thing is that if All Defensive Teams are supposed to be regular season awards, Kobe never should have sniffed even 2nd team for the last decade.

feelingit
06-11-2013, 02:53 PM
Kobe is the type of player that the player is greater than the sum of his parts. If you break down his game he really doesn't stack up, as a player he's awesome though. X factor.

LoveMeOrHateMe
06-11-2013, 04:32 PM
payton
bruce bowen
jason kidd
artest
doug christie (seriosuly)

and a ton of big men

some of those might be iffy, but arguments could be made for sure.

Nice try but Payton's best years were behind him
Kidd was good but not Kobe good
Lol at Christie
And which big men?

I can't think of 3 maybe 4

Mourning
Wallace
Duncan
Garnett and maybe Dikembe

That's only 5-6 players but you can argue Kobe was top 5

amos1er
06-11-2013, 04:51 PM
...Battier, Garnett, Duncan, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Kirilenko, T-Mac, Pierce, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion, Rasheed, Yao, Camby, Kenyon Martin, Eddie Jones, Big Z...

I don't know I'm getting tired. 25 more. He was a negative defender virtually every year since '02, though still great for stretches of playoff runs for a while longer (an VERY short stretches there after). The thing is that if All Defensive Teams are supposed to be regular season awards, Kobe never should have sniffed even 2nd team for the last decade.

Wow. This is truly laughable.

kdspurman
06-11-2013, 04:55 PM
Nice try but Payton's best years were behind him
Kidd was good but not Kobe good
Lol at Christie
And which big men?

I can't think of 3 maybe 4

Mourning
Wallace
Duncan
Garnett and maybe Dikembe

That's only 5-6 players but you can argue Kobe was top 5

Not Bowen or Artest?

Chronz
06-11-2013, 05:10 PM
Did you just say Kidd was not Kobe good on defense? WTF

kdspurman
06-11-2013, 05:15 PM
Did you just say Kidd was not Kobe good on defense? WTF

I totally missed that part.. :pity:

amos1er
06-11-2013, 05:20 PM
In before lock.

tredigs
06-11-2013, 05:27 PM
It's not just random coincidence that Kobe's Defensive RAPM (regularized + adjusted plus/minus) - a stat that isn't updated this season because the creator was hired by an NBA team - is NEGATIVE EVERY SINGLE YEAR, dating back to 99: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/.

There are exactly 0 other players in that time considered by coaches/fans/media to be +defenders where that is the case. The guy has just always lacked defensive intensity except sparingly in moments that he feels like it's important to do so. That doesn't cut it in 48 minute games, and it shows in the numbers, even if the media was too scared to do anything but praise him on all facets of his game at all times (which in turn bleeds into common perception by fans who don't know a ton about the game).


Not Bowen or Artest?

Please don't take his posts with any sincerity man. He's one of those guys who are painfully obsessive about KB.

kdspurman
06-11-2013, 05:38 PM
Please don't take his posts with any sincerity man. He's one of those guys who are painfully obsessive about KB.

Got it, thanks man lol. I guess part of me really wanted to know his thought process, but it's probably best to be left alone.

lakerfan85
06-11-2013, 05:48 PM
Lol at the OP being banned already.. People on here must have sad lives if they have to create a second account because the first one got banned..

lakersiznumber1
06-11-2013, 05:52 PM
I'm just wondering. I watch kobe play defense now a days and it is a joke. It has been this was for years now, too. People always say "he can go into shutdown mode when he wants to", but i never see it. He seems like the derek jeter of NBA. jeter would win gold gloves purely out of reputation and popularity. Has kobe ever been THAT great of a defender? when did this myth begin?

why is 80% of the post about discrediting kobe or lebron it's geting old now. Do you think they waste time thinking about what you think. Talk about other players for once mix it up- that's exactly why so much ppl left psd

Matter.
06-11-2013, 06:19 PM
When Kobe tries he will lock you up... ask Lebron in the ASG

tredigs
06-11-2013, 06:25 PM
When Kobe tries he will lock you up... ask Lebron in the ASG

hahah - perfect.

/thread.

Teeboy1487
06-11-2013, 06:35 PM
Of course this site tries to discredit Kobe at every turn. I'm not even going to bother. Kobe haters disgust me.

sammyvine
06-11-2013, 06:42 PM
decent defender imo

not the best but when locked in he can be

Hawkeye15
06-11-2013, 06:55 PM
This either turns into a rational discussion, or it gets closed. Up to you guys, warning has been sent.

HouRealCoach
06-11-2013, 07:27 PM
You're right. He never defended Parker, Rondo, Mello, D Will, CP3, Bibby, Bonzi, Pippen, Stoudamire, Reggie Miller, J Kidd, or Iverson in the playoffs/ Finals.

It's all just a huge myth created by everyone in the know in the nba as part of the huge conspiracy to keep Kobe relevant.

He did not shut down Deron Williams... 20 & 11 isn't exactly shutting him down. Bonzi, Stoudamire, & Miller are laughable. Pippen was on the downside of his career.

Jason Kidd averaged 21, 10, & 7.. He really did a number on him, Iverson was Iverson against him

Kobe has never showed that he was a top 5 defender above others


When Kobe tries he will lock you up... ask Lebron in the ASG

LMAO!!!!!!! Good one there

Purple_n_Gold
06-11-2013, 07:33 PM
These baiting threads about players who haven't played in two months are getting ridiculous. I mean these threads seem to be started for no actual real discussion just random mouth running nonsense. If you have to ask this question and admittedly you are basing this on watching a 34 y/o 17 year veteran, then you must have just started watching basketball. You do know he's played for more than two years right?

SportsFanatic10
06-11-2013, 07:37 PM
he was a good defender in his prime when he wanted to be, but not all defensive 1st team good. those are very undeserved but that's the case for most stars. now he's pretty bad on that end of the court.

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 07:47 PM
These baiting threads about players who haven't played in two months are getting ridiculous. I mean these threads seem to be started for no actual real discussion just random mouth running nonsense. If you have to ask this question and admittedly you are basing this on watching a 34 y/o 17 year veteran, then you must have just started watching basketball. You do know he's played for more than two years right?

Come on man you know Kobe bashing is a occupation. I can only imagine what will happen he's actually removed from the game for while.

The next lie will be Kobe was never really a good scorer, he just got lucky and the ball went in.....

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 07:50 PM
he was a good defender in his prime
when he wanted to be, but not all defensive 1st team good. those are very undeserved but that's the case for most stars. now he's pretty bad on that end of the court.

A 17 year vet that's been chasing around guards his whole career and nearing retirement is no longer a good defender?

You don't say! Hey I heard Steve Nash is a step slower now too! Unbelievable, what slackers!

SportsFanatic10
06-11-2013, 08:10 PM
A 17 year vet that's been chasing around guards his whole career and nearing retirement is no longer a good defender?

You don't say! Hey I heard Steve Nash is a step slower now too! Unbelievable, what slackers!

i didn't say he's bad without good reason, just that he's bad which is the truth. seems i struck a nerve...

ragee
06-11-2013, 08:13 PM
Nice try but Payton's best years were behind him
Kidd was good but not Kobe good
Lol at Christie
And which big men?

I can't think of 3 maybe 4

Mourning
Wallace
Duncan
Garnett and maybe Dikembe

That's only 5-6 players but you can argue Kobe was top 5

Kidd was defending PGs to SFs when the Mavs won the title. What are you talking about?

Bowen
Prince
A-K
Artest
Battier
T-Mac
Marion

And a ton of big men

mngopher35
06-11-2013, 08:15 PM
Myth? That's not what I would call it at all. Kobe was a very good defender when he was younger and in his prime (when he wanted to be, such as the playoffs). I do think he has gotten a few too many all defensive teams (recently at least) and can be overrated by some on that end, but his defense isn't a myth. He was an excellent on ball defender in his prime/younger days.

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 08:18 PM
i didn't say he's bad without good
reason, just that he's bad which is the truth. seems i struck a nerve...

No nerves struck bro I'm good. Just seems kindof redundant to state the obvious. That's like criticizing KG or T Mac for not high flying and being athletic anymore....

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 08:20 PM
Kidd was defending PGs to SFs when the Mavs
won the title. What are you talking about?

Bowen
Prince
A-K
Artest
Battier
T-Mac
Marion

And a ton of big men

You do realize the majority of the guys you named primary job was to be defensive stoppers and Kobe's was to score right?

I mean why not compare him to Rodman while your at it.

SportsFanatic10
06-11-2013, 08:20 PM
No nerves struck bro I'm good. Just seems kindof redundant to state the obvious. That's like criticizing KG or T Mac for not high flying and being athletic anymore....

your right the truth is it's obvious, but alot of kobe fans would say otherwise anyway...

Hawkeye15
06-11-2013, 08:29 PM
These baiting threads about players who haven't played in two months are getting ridiculous. I mean these threads seem to be started for no actual real discussion just random mouth running nonsense. If you have to ask this question and admittedly you are basing this on watching a 34 y/o 17 year veteran, then you must have just started watching basketball. You do know he's played for more than two years right?

I don't think anyone is touching his last 2 years man. Even Laker fans are saying he was no bueno the past 2 years on defense. That happens when you have that many games on your knees as a perimeter player.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2013, 08:32 PM
You do realize the majority of the guys you named primary job was to be defensive stoppers and Kobe's was to score right?

I mean why not compare him to Rodman while your at it.

I think that is my, and many others problems. How is Kobe making 1st team all NBA, when there are clearly better defenders whose job it is to defend, not to shoulder the load Kobe did offensively? And we can't ignore that he would float around, gamble, and not take his man seriously unless challenged in real games. That is what happens sometimes when your whole career is big games. In mid November, you just don't care about guarding whomever the Bucks throw out at SG, because it doesn't matter to him, or his teams win.

That is why myself, and many, simply say he was an overrated defender. When he WANTED to be? Amazing. That just wasn't happening 82 games plus playoffs, yet he was named 1st team all defense year in and year out.

feelingit
06-11-2013, 08:53 PM
Kobe has never had freakish athleticism though. Yes Kobe #8 had above average athleticism, but he never was a monster athlete like Westbrook or Jordan.

It hurts to lose athleticism when you already did not have an extreme amount of it.

Purple_n_Gold
06-11-2013, 09:55 PM
I don't think anyone is touching his last 2 years man. Even Laker fans are saying he was no bueno the past 2 years on defense. That happens when you have that many games on your knees as a perimeter player.
Yea that's what I mean. I was assuming the OP is basing his statement off watching Kobe just the last two years because anyone who would say that Kobe was not capable of being a lockdown defender needs to go watch early Kobe. As a poster said earlier his defense in the postseason was notoriously good but I guess that was ages ago so it doesn't count to some. I will be the first to say except for a few spots his defense has been lacking these last couple years. He has showed capable to play very tough D when selected to do so then he has no legs on offense for the next three games.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2013, 10:04 PM
Yea that's what I mean. I was assuming the OP is basing his statement off watching Kobe just the last two years because anyone who would say that Kobe was not capable of being a lockdown defender needs to go watch early Kobe. As a poster said earlier his defense in the postseason was notoriously good but I guess that was ages ago so it doesn't count to some. I will be the first to say except for a few spots his defense has been lacking these last couple years. He has showed capable to play very tough D when selected to do so then he has no legs on offense for the next three games.

oh dude, capable?? Of course he was, and he did it. I just have an issue with his overall consistency over time. Especially as his role adapted from #2, to #1, where we saw the fall off, even if that fall off was still an excellent defender nightly.

Jenceman
06-11-2013, 10:19 PM
your right the truth is it's obvious, but alot of kobe fans would say otherwise anyway...

Literally no one has said otherwise. We know his defense isn't good anymore. That's what happens after 17 years of deep playoff runs.

static_inferno
06-11-2013, 10:36 PM
Kobe's only good when he tries. He often has to guard lesser players to conserve energy for the offensive end. Look no further than on Team USA when his main goal was defense. Also, look at this past All Star game where he helped shutdown an East comeback by playing superb defense on LeBron. I only wish he could do that to LeBron during the regular season.

EDIT: I would also like to add that NBA coaches vote for the all-defensive teams. Call it favoritism or honoring a great player for his past, but I'm pretty sure NBA coaches know a lot more about defense in basketball than any of us.

jaji10
06-11-2013, 11:59 PM
kobe is a great defender especially during his peak years, problem is he only defends when he wants to.. he will play great defense on star players but against role/ lesser known players he just doesnt give the same effort which leads to their career nights..

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 12:19 AM
Kobe has never had freakish athleticism though. Yes Kobe #8 had above average athleticism, but he never was a monster athlete like Westbrook or Jordan.

It hurts to lose athleticism when you already did not have an extreme amount of it.

Jordan never had "freakish athleticism" either. He was always very athletic, but he wasn't in the top tier of athleticism. His own trainer even says it.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/9183990/michael-jordan-flu-game-was-really-food-poisoning-trainer-says

He was great, but he wasn't in that top tier like LBJ/Barkley/Dominique. It's kind of a huge urban myth that Jordan was more athletic than everyone when he played.

carlthack
06-12-2013, 12:51 AM
Nobody gets selected to 9 All-NBA defensive first teams by accident. Your Kobe-hating is obvious and pathetic.

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 01:05 AM
Nobody gets selected to 9 All-NBA defensive first teams by accident. Your Kobe-hating is obvious and pathetic.

LOL. Shaq also got all defensive first team awards he didn't deserve.... and Shaq is one of my favorite players of all time...

In EVERY sport there are people that didn't deserve rewards, and got them. Look at the history of baseball gold glove winners.

carlthack
06-12-2013, 01:47 AM
LOL. Shaq also got all defensive first team awards he didn't deserve.... and Shaq is one of my favorite players of all time...

In EVERY sport there are people that didn't deserve rewards, and got them. Look at the history of baseball gold glove winners.

People who aren't knowledgable in sports shouldn't be allowed on these threads. First of all Shaq never was selected to an All-defensive 1st team. Secondly what does Shaq have to do with the original question? And what does baseball have to do with anything?

DreamShaker
06-12-2013, 01:54 AM
When a player is as smart and as willing to compete as Kobe, he will have his moments of great D. I do remember him playing game-changing D numerous times, just not as much in the past 5 years or so all the time. Most recent time I remember him getting high praise for his D on a large stage was the 08 olympics.

ArmLaker
06-12-2013, 02:03 AM
LOL. Shaq also got all defensive first team awards he didn't deserve.... and Shaq is one of my favorite players of all time...

In EVERY sport there are people that didn't deserve rewards, and got them. Look at the history of baseball gold glove winners.

Like LeBron James winning 4 NBA MVPs with nothing to show for it?

ztilzer31
06-12-2013, 02:05 AM
People who aren't knowledgable in sports shouldn't be allowed on these threads. First of all Shaq never was selected to an All-defensive 1st team. Secondly what does Shaq have to do with the original question? And what does baseball have to do with anything?

You're right. My bad.

carlthack
06-12-2013, 03:30 AM
You're right. My bad.

I commend you on your honesty. Most guys wouldnt have the balls to say that.

Shlumpledink
06-12-2013, 03:43 AM
There was a game this year where he played elite level defense on chris paul. But it has only been a myth for 4 seasons now I believe, he started playing everyone like he would play rajon rondo. he would leave guys alone and roam for steals or to help down low.

Before then, Kobe was a lock down defender off the ball. The best way to defend wing players is to make sure they never even get the ball, he used to lock down scorers and would man up and play good on ball defense.

TmacBryant
06-12-2013, 03:56 AM
Imo he was above average, he was never great though.. Over the years I have seen PG's repeatedly shred the Lakers in the playoffs & regular season, from Steve Nash to Gilbert Arenas to Aaron Brooks to Dragic to CP3

Everyone blew up when he shut down Brandon Jennings lol but when D Wade came in LA and DEMOLISHED there was no more talk of Kobe's defense lol


That is such BS. At one point in his career he could guard anyone in the league that was a pg, sg, or sf. He was shutting down players like T-mac, Lebron, and even Durant before father time hit him.

And not only was he defending like a beast, he was scoring better than anyone in the league at the time.

Mr_Jones
06-12-2013, 05:00 AM
Wow, really? Damon just minding his own business and boom shots fired. Lol

lololol

amos1er
06-12-2013, 05:10 AM
Ya all got to stop hating. Sure Kobe got awarded some undeserving All Defensive team awards the last two years, but most of them were well earned...especially during his peak years. Kobe was one of the most consistently great defenders throughout his career in the history of the game. You can't take that away from him.

MickeyMgl
06-12-2013, 05:28 AM
Kobe was able to lock down anyone when he wanted to. But, his consistency as a defender has never been on par with his consistency as a scorer. During the regular season, he was never a night in, night out elite defender. But come playoffs for most of his career, outside the past couple of post seasons, if a perimeter player on the other team was going off on them, or had the potential to, Kobe did a great job of limiting them.

Reasonably put. Anybody who thinks he was "above average at best" clearly never saw how he was able to put the clamps down on the hottest scorers. As you note, however, he didn't bring that "lock down" intensity in every regular season game.

I do wonder how much of that spotiness may have been an effect of his decision to play through significant injuries.

fresh prince
06-12-2013, 05:31 AM
One of the best on ball defenders of ALL time in his prime & when focused. I'd take Kobe Scottie or MJ over anyone else to lock someone up for long stretches of the game.. Some guys make it tough on you Tony Allen , Thabo, Bruce Bowen etc. But very few have the ability to just completely lock dudes down. Prime Kobe had that.

If he was focused and determine dudes just wouldn't score anymore. No buckets. I mean this guy held prime Allen Iverson scoreless for an entire second half in 99-00. That could be when the "Myth" started.

I don't think its reasonable to expect someone that carries such an offensive burden both scoring and facilitating for his team to play that way for 48 minutes.

amos1er
06-12-2013, 05:42 AM
Reasonably put. Anybody who thinks he was "above average at best" clearly never saw how he was able to put the clamps down on the hottest scorers. As you note, however, he didn't bring that "lock down" intensity in every regular season game.

I do wonder how much of that spotiness may have been an effect of his decision to play through significant injuries.

A valid point.

fresh prince
06-12-2013, 05:48 AM
I'm just wondering. I watch kobe play defense now a days and it is a joke. It has been this was for years now, too. People always say "he can go into shutdown mode when he wants to", but i never see it. He seems like the derek jeter of NBA. jeter would win gold gloves purely out of reputation and popularity. Has kobe ever been THAT great of a defender? when did this myth begin?

It was the year 2000. This started it:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20010605/SPORTS90/306059976&cid=sitesearch


Iverson and 76ers coach Larry Brown's relationship was so turbulent that team owner Pat Croce admitted to nearly trading his star.

Now, Iverson is the NBA's MVP, and it appears he and his coach couldn't be closer.

Bryant and O'Neal took their simmering feud public in January, and as recently as March, Lakers coach Phil Jackson questioned Bryant's commitment to the team.

Bryant made a name for himself defensively by holding Iverson scoreless in the second half of a nationally televised game in Philadelphia during the 1999-00 season, but isn't certain he'll be guarding Iverson at the outset of Game — of the finals on Wednesday night.

THEN Dudes kept getting locked up and the MYTH wore on.

JasonJohnHorn
06-12-2013, 06:47 AM
I don't think he's ever been a 'great' defender by NBA standards. I think he has been a good defender. You look at Reggie Miller's numbers in the finals... they were up from the rest of the year. Same thing with Rip Hamilton. Ray Allen was having a huge shooting slump throughout the playoffs in 08, he gets to the finals and Kobe guard him, all of a sudden he's shooting great again.


I've never seen Kobe excel on defense on the big stage. I'm not sure why he gets the All-Defensive team nods. He'd been a good defender, but I would have never voted for him for All-Defensive teams.

I think this is just a case of popularity mixed with exposure. You take a guy like Tony Allen. He's earned a rep as a great defender, but if he were playing in Toronto or Minny his entire career, people would not have noticed. He was lucky though. He got to showcase his talents on a team that people watched. Ever team plays 82 games each year. Nobody has time to watch time all. The voters are going to vote for the guys they've seen play good defense all year, or the guys they've known to play good defense in the past and who kept it up during the games that they watched. I would say just about every NBA reporter watches a dozen Kobe games each year, where as Trevor Ariza likely only gets seen a couple of times by guys outside of his market. Who is going to get more votes?


This is why I'd rather coaches and/or players vote for these things.

ragee
06-12-2013, 08:42 AM
You do realize the majority of the guys you named primary job was to be defensive stoppers and Kobe's was to score right?

I mean why not compare him to Rodman while your at it.

So what? We are not talking about potential here. We are talking about results. How else can you determine how good a player is on defense is? That's like trying to say that Pipen is better than Jordan offensively but it doesn't show because he is more focused on defense.

Swashcuff
06-12-2013, 10:16 AM
LOL. Shaq also got all defensive first team awards he didn't deserve.... and Shaq is one of my favorite players of all time...

In EVERY sport there are people that didn't deserve rewards, and got them. Look at the history of baseball gold glove winners.

Holdddddddd it there skippy, PEAK Shaq was DOMINANT on the defensive end. His rim protection and individual interior D was world class he could have easily gotten a first team award if it wasn't for Morning winning the DPOY award that season with his 4 BPG. He finished 2nd in the DPOY voting that season and was every bit as impactful as Morning was on D. Peak Shaq was a GREAT defensive player.

ldawg
06-12-2013, 10:53 AM
He is a good defender when he puts his mind to it. Lately without phill getting on him he is cheating to much on defense he is always leaving his man. If you think last season was bad Just think him and Nash in the back court next season. A 40 year old pg and Kobe fresh off a major injury. Lakers back court d is going to be soft like jello.

Chronz
06-12-2013, 11:02 AM
I don't think he's ever been a 'great' defender by NBA standards. I think he has been a good defender. You look at Reggie Miller's numbers in the finals... they were up from the rest of the year.
Nope. Kobe OWNED Reggie. He had him in shackles until Jalen purposely injured Kobe. After the ankle injury Kobe wasn't the same and Reggie was able to get free against Harper and the likes IIRC.



Same thing with Rip Hamilton.
Same thing meaning, he locked him down. RIP had a strong playoff run to get to the Finals, then he faces Kobe and all of a sudden he cant get a shot up despite moving off the ball forever. The main reason RIP had any sort of success was because Kobe was playing the role of a fireman, he would douse whichever one of RIP or Billups had it going.



Ray Allen was having a huge shooting slump throughout the playoffs in 08, he gets to the finals and Kobe guard him, all of a sudden he's shooting great again.
By this point Phil stopped having Kobe guard off the ball threats like Ray, Fisher checked him while Kobe played Rondo IIRC. By this point Kobe is in full on selective mode.



This is why I'd rather coaches and/or players vote for these things.
Umm Coaches DO vote for these things (All-Defensive Teams), or at least they are suppose to, rumor has it they pass the ballots onto their assistants most of the time, regardless I dont think someone who only watches a player play as little as 2 times a year should be able to tell the media/public, who the best defenders are.

MassoDio
06-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Jordan never had "freakish athleticism" either. He was always very athletic, but he wasn't in the top tier of athleticism. His own trainer even says it.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/9183990/michael-jordan-flu-game-was-really-food-poisoning-trainer-says

He was great, but he wasn't in that top tier like LBJ/Barkley/Dominique. It's kind of a huge urban myth that Jordan was more athletic than everyone when he played.

First off, Jordan was a "freak Athlete". He may not have been the most athletic in the league. He didn't even have as high of a vertical as Pippen. But make no mistake about it, he was a top tier athlete up until he was at least 28 or 29. After that, yes his athleticism lessened and he had to use his Basketball IQ far more often.

Second, no where in that article does Tim Grover say anything about Jordan not being a top tier athlete. The article doesn't say anything about his athleticism at all. It is an article about the "Flu Game" really being food poisoning.

Now....back to Kobe.

I go back to what I said before, he is only overrated if you think that he was a great defender with any sort of consistency. (Especially in the regular season, which is what the All-Defensive team is an award for) Or if you believe he deserved all (Or even most) of the All-Defensive 1st team selections he received.

Sandman
06-12-2013, 02:24 PM
And for clarification, the notion that you can win a gold glove on reputation and popularity is laughable. The fact that you use Derek Jeter, one of the greatest to ever play the most difficult defensive position aside from catcher, is disrespectful.
No way, Gold Gloves are given out on highlight reels. Basketball doesnt have the paradox baseball does.

If you have player A that makes 50 errors and gets to 850 balls and you have Player A that made no errors and got to 750 balls, which player made the more positive impact on his team?

lakersfan01
06-12-2013, 10:12 PM
Kobe has been awful on defense for the last several years. He's Fisher on defense.

albertc86
06-13-2013, 01:59 PM
Kobe was a great defender. He never had a great defensive sidekick on the wing to alleviate pressure off him on the defensive end. He's been known as a defensive stopper and has always been a monster on offense. But a little perspective... He has been in the league 15+ years and think about the said players in this thread who were in the discussion with him and now are on the decline... I mean look at Wade... It's amazing how you haters still fail to acknowledge Kobe's greatness and longevity. I mean... WOW. I'm no LeBron fan but I appreciate his talent. Any true basketball fan would. You won't appreciate Kobe's talent until he's gone. But back to the OP... It was never a "myth".

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2013, 02:05 PM
LOL. Shaq also got all defensive first team awards he didn't deserve.... and Shaq is one of my favorite players of all time...

In EVERY sport there are people that didn't deserve rewards, and got them. Look at the history of baseball gold glove winners.

Exactly and the same thing will happen many yrs from now when guys like Lebron is still getting 1st defense selections. All sports are riddled with things like this. I'm a Yankee fan and Jeter has won 5 gold glove awards with the most recent coming in 2010.

MickeyMgl
06-13-2013, 02:05 PM
I don't think he's ever been a 'great' defender by NBA standards. I think he has been a good defender. You look at Reggie Miller's numbers in the finals... they were up from the rest of the year.

Games 1, 4, 5, 6 (the ones in which Bryant played more than 9 minutes):
Miller 37.9% FG, 23.0 pts

Games 2, 3 (9 minutes & DNP, respectively, due to ankle sprain):
Miller 47.4% FG, 27.0 pts

Factor in that Bryant was playing on a sprained ankle the rest of the series, including Game 4, the game he won for the Lakers in OT, and that Miller's numbers in that game are padded by the OT.



Same thing with Rip Hamilton.

On the contrary. One of the problems the Lakers had in that series was that they didn't have two Kobes to guard both Hamilton and Billups at the same time. Whoever Jackson put him on, the other would blow up on Derek Fissure or Gary Payton, who by that point in his career was not so much a Glove as a Mitten. Bryant made Hamilton look completely silly when he was on him.

In the regular season, Hamilton was a 46% FG shooter averaging about two and a half turnovers a game. In those Finals, between Bryant's stifling D (and it was stifling most of the time he was on Hamilton), and the other Laker guards' defense, which was...... not-so-stifling, Hamilton shot 40% FG and averaged almost 5 turnovers per game.

To your point, though, he did score a couple extra points per game over his season average. So you've got that going for you.



Ray Allen was having a huge shooting slump throughout the playoffs in 08, he gets to the finals and Kobe guard him, all of a sudden he's shooting great again.


Actually, Bryant guarded Rondo for most of that series. From Game 3 on even into future seasons, Jackson always had Bryant almost exclusively on Rondo, with Fisher chasing Allen through screens.



I've never seen Kobe excel on defense on the big stage.

Says it all. He has been a game-changer at times.



This is why I'd rather coaches and/or players vote for these things.

Guess what? They do.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 02:17 PM
I don't think he's ever been a 'great' defender by NBA standards. I think he has been a good defender. You look at Reggie Miller's numbers in the finals... they were up from the rest of the year. Same thing with Rip Hamilton. Ray Allen was having a huge shooting slump throughout the playoffs in 08, he gets to the finals and Kobe guard him, all of a sudden he's shooting great again.


I've never seen Kobe excel on defense on the big stage. I'm not sure why he gets the All-Defensive team nods. He'd been a good defender, but I would have never voted for him for All-Defensive teams.

I think this is just a case of popularity mixed with exposure. You take a guy like Tony Allen. He's earned a rep as a great defender, but if he were playing in Toronto or Minny his entire career, people would not have noticed. He was lucky though. He got to showcase his talents on a team that people watched. Ever team plays 82 games each year. Nobody has time to watch time all. The voters are going to vote for the guys they've seen play good defense all year, or the guys they've known to play good defense in the past and who kept it up during the games that they watched. I would say just about every NBA reporter watches a dozen Kobe games each year, where as Trevor Ariza likely only gets seen a couple of times by guys outside of his market. Who is going to get more votes?


This is why I'd rather coaches and/or players vote for these things.

Terrible post.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:23 PM
How is that a terrible post? It's absolutely true. Especially the Rip Hamilton part. Anyone who watched that series remember how Hamilton was tearing up Kobe, and I believe it was after game 3 that Phil took Kobe off of Hamilton, because "Kobe was spending too much energy on defense".

It's funny because Kobe played like utter garbage that series, but of course he gets a pass. Shaq dominated, and Kobe shot too much. Scoring 22 ppg on 38% shooting while Shaq scored 26ppg on 63% shooting.

This of course doesn't matter to the Lakers fans, because Kobe has never played bad when it counted.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:25 PM
How is that a terrible post? It's absolutely true. Especially the Rip Hamilton part. Anyone who watched that series remember how Hamilton was tearing up Kobe, and I believe it was after game 3 that Phil took Kobe off of Hamilton, because "Kobe was spending too much energy on defense".

It's funny because Kobe played like utter garbage that series, but of course he gets a pass. Shaq dominated, and Kobe shot too much. Scoring 22 ppg on 38% shooting while Shaq scored 26ppg on 63% shooting.

This of course doesn't matter to the Lakers fans, because Kobe has never played bad when it counted.

Not true man, not true

Bruno
06-13-2013, 02:26 PM
better question, when did the myth of Kobe being a career long average defender begin? you don't get as many defensive teams as he gets without being great. sure, the past 2-3 have been career achievementesque, but to pretend like the first seven or eight nods weren't legitimate is inaccurate.

Kobe played fantastic defense from 1999 until about 2004. He was then very good from 2006-2009 but had to save his legs due to his enormous offensive role. from 2010 on he has been average on a daily basis but can still lock down given defender when necessary (i.e., this years runs of shutting down elite PGs with nash out).

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:27 PM
Which might I add was a team with 4 hall of famers, and really highlighted Kobe's inability to play with other great players. He never let Payton run the offense. It's like he was shooting to prove he was the alpha male all season. He played like trash that season, and all the blame went to Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Meanwhile Lebron has one bad game and that series is his fault... It's really pathetic how the scale is so tipped in peoples criticisms of LBJ and Kobe.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:27 PM
Not true man, not true

What part isn't true?

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Thats an interesting theory but it wasnt in the best interest of the team to have GP dominate the rock.... so???

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:30 PM
Which might I add was a team with 4 hall of famers, and really highlighted Kobe's inability to play with other great players. He never let Payton run the offense. It's like he was shooting to prove he was the alpha male all season. He played like trash that season, and all the blame went to Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Meanwhile Lebron has one bad game and that series is his fault... It's really pathetic how the scale is so tipped in peoples criticisms of LBJ and Kobe.
Kobe put the clamps on who ever he was guarding, he couldn't play the ball hawking defense from a team standpoint because of the presence of Rip and Billups

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:35 PM
better question, when did the myth of Kobe being a career long average defender begin? you don't get as many defensive teams as he gets without being great.
Ive wondered that many times.


sure, the past 2-3 have been career achievementesque, but to pretend like the first seven or eight nods weren't legitimate is inaccurate.

The fact that Kobe could make it this far removed his peak suggests anything is possible. I really dont see any way we can disprove one or the other and I know plenty who would discount more than half of his defensive selections.



Kobe played fantastic defense from 1999 until about 2004.
When motivated he did, which usually meant when the playoffs rolled around (per stats+Phil Jackson). I think describing anything beyond 01 or 02 as elite is stretching it quite abit. Its not all his fault however, the team kind of eroded after awhile and/or took a lax approach in general to one of the title runs.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:36 PM
Thats an interesting theory but it wasnt in the best interest of the team to have GP dominate the rock.... so???

Then why have him out there at all? That's literally what he's good at. Defense, and ball handling. Why have payton play 30 mins a game if you're not going to let him get the ball into Shaq?


Kobe literally shot 29 more shots than Shaq and scored 4 ppg less. While he was outplayed by Richard Hamilton /Chauncey Billups the entire series... He was literally one of the biggest reasons they lost that series...

That was the series that made me hate Kobe Bryant. I was a huge Shaq fan, and I was really excited to see Payton get a ring, and Malone and Payton took all the blame for Kobe chucking bricks all game.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:37 PM
Oh yeah he was also 4/23 from 3 that series too... but we pretend like it didn't happen lol.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 02:37 PM
I don't think he's ever been a 'great' defender by NBA standards. I think he has been a good defender. You look at Reggie Miller's numbers in the finals... they were up from the rest of the year. Same thing with Rip Hamilton. Ray Allen was having a huge shooting slump throughout the playoffs in 08, he gets to the finals and Kobe guard him, all of a sudden he's shooting great again.


a few things here.

as i recall, Kobe guarded mostly Jalen in the 2000 finals (before the injury at least). as i recall, phil took the 'make reggie beat us' approach as it was his intent to take every other Pacer out of the series (especially Rose as their #2).

take another look at Richard Hamiltons stats from the 2004 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hamilri01/gamelog/2004/#36-40-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs

Rip shot 40% during the 2004 NBA finals, he averaged 21.4 points per game on 18.4 field goals per game. that's a TS% of .500 (far from elite or brag worthy). Hamilton was efficient throughout the 2004 ECF before struggling to score efficintly against the Lakers (he posted a TS% of .54 during the first three rounds of the EC playoffs). I'd say that information goes against your point.

as far as Kobe vs Allen in the 2008 finals, I recall Fisher chasing Allen around those screens. i know for a fact that that was the case in 2010, but as I recall Kobe wasn't matched up against Allen for the entire series. I recall him playing rover on Rondo or bodying Pierce at least half the time. 2008 was pre Artest, and it was when Ariza was fresh off injury, Kobe guarded Pierce. Pierce shot 43% for the series.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 02:42 PM
Then why have him out there at all? That's literally what he's good at. Defense, and ball handling. Why have payton play 30 mins a game if you're not going to let him get the ball into Shaq?
I thought you meant have him dominate the ball above Kobe, you dont think GP got enough touches given his abilities? Thats totally up to you but its maddening to think GP should be the guy dictating the flow of the game ahead of a perimeter player who has already won titles as a defacto facilitator in the very offense GP was still learning.


Kobe literally shot 29 more shots than Shaq and scored 4 ppg less.
Alot of things went wrong that series, I still cant make sense of some of that series but that is neither here nor there, we are talking strictly defense.


While he was outplayed by Richard Hamilton /Chauncey Billups the entire series... He was literally one of the biggest reasons they lost that series...

Maybe, but not on defense thats for sure. Its sad that the Pistons were able to negate his defensive prowess simply by going to the other perimeter guy, but that does fall on GP, and the Lakers team scheme in general. Then again, the Pistons were a special team. Maybe its harsh to expect so much from GP, I have my own theory in general with what went wrong with him but it had nothing to do with touches.

3RDASYSTEM
06-13-2013, 02:43 PM
Let me see here

he started in the 98' allstar game

was a backupguard to JONES who didn't start but made the allstar game I think

then him and PAYTON were on the court pre allstar game and that's where all the GLOVE taught him about stance and all the lil tricks the glove gave him

that's when all the super duper hype added on to the already allstar starter hype

once you're overrated its a wrap

and like I said you're spot on the JETER of the nba, nothing more nothing less

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:44 PM
a few things here.

as i recall, Kobe guarded mostly Jalen in the 2000 finals (before the injury at least). as i recall, phil took the 'make reggie beat us' approach as it was his intent to take every other Pacer out of the series (especially Rose as their #2).

take another look at Richard Hamiltons stats from the 2004 finals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hamilri01/gamelog/2004/#36-40-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs

Rip shot 40% during the 2004 NBA finals, he averaged 21.4 points per game on 18.4 field goals per game. that's a TS% of .500 (far from elite or brag worthy). Hamilton was efficient throughout the 2004 ECF before struggling to score efficintly against the Lakers (he posted a TS% of .54 during the first three rounds of the EC playoffs). I'd say that information goes against your point.

as far as Kobe vs Allen in the 2008 finals, I recall Fisher chasing Allen around those screens. i know for a fact that that was the case in 2010, but as I recall Kobe wasn't matched up against Allen for the entire series. I recall him playing rover on Rondo or bodying Pierce at least half the time. 2008 was pre Artest, and it was when Ariza was fresh off injury, Kobe guarded Pierce. Pierce shot 43% for the series.

Kobe only guarded Hamilton through games 1-3 before they took him off him. Which if you look at the stats Hamilton destroyed Kobe in both game 2 and 3.

Also Hamilton wasn't exactly Jordan. He was a great player, and that was during his prime, but if Kobe is an "elite defender" he shouldn't have problems guarding him.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 02:47 PM
Ive wondered that many times.
I think fans were so outraged by the past two defensive first team nods that they just took it out on him by saying he never deserved it, ever. :laugh2:



The fact that Kobe could make it this far removed his peak suggests anything is possible. I really dont see any way we can disprove one or the other and I know plenty who would discount more than half of his defensive selections.

it's a difficult thing to prove. I'd be open to seeing which wing defenders they would select over Kobe on given years before 2005 or 2006 in which they had major gripes, over his selection- just for comparisons sakes. theres no doubt that other defenders were just as worthy many times- but as we know the league likes to give it to their stars as preference.

i'd also love to see that 'defensive hit-list' that you mentioned earlier in the thread, i just don't have the time to do it.



When motivated he did, which usually meant when the playoffs rolled around (per stats+Phil Jackson). I think describing anything beyond 01 or 02 as elite is stretching it quite abit. Its not all his fault however, the team kind of eroded after awhile and/or took a lax approach in general to one of the title runs.

Are you talking about 2003? They did look lax, their were spent emotionally, and the bench was garbage (factor often ignored). that was the year Kobe put on the weight and took on a bigger offensive role. i'd be cool with saying 2003 was the beginning of his elite lock down defense declining due to a change in role/circumstance/body type. but i'd also say he was still very good from 2003 until the 2008 or 2009 range. but yea- his defensive peak was early 2000's for sure.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 02:49 PM
I thought you meant have him dominate the ball above Kobe, you dont think GP got enough touches given his abilities? Thats totally up to you but its maddening to think GP should be the guy dictating the flow of the game ahead of a perimeter player who has already won titles as a defacto facilitator in the very offense GP was still learning.


Alot of things went wrong that series, I still cant make sense of some of that series but that is neither here nor there, we are talking strictly defense.


Maybe, but not on defense thats for sure. Its sad that the Pistons were able to negate his defensive prowess simply by going to the other perimeter guy, but that does fall on GP, and the Lakers team scheme in general. Then again, the Pistons were a special team. Maybe its harsh to expect so much from GP, I have my own theory in general with what went wrong with him but it had nothing to do with touches.

I'm not saying Kobe shouldn't dominate the ball, I'm saying if you have Payton in there you might as well have him run some plays with Shaq. Kobe shot way too much that series and played crap defense. Nuff said. He tried to prove himself that series...

Seriously watch the series again. That series shows what exactly makes Kobe not a top 10 player. His inability to play with other great players, his greediness, and his inability to play good defense for an entire game.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 02:54 PM
Kobe only guarded Hamilton through games 1-3 before they took him off him. Which if you look at the stats Hamilton destroyed Kobe in both game 2 and 3.
i don't remember that- but i'll go check out the footage.

I wouldn't say Hamilton destroyed him. Hamilton scored 12 points on 5/16 shooting in game one. Even in the games you mentioned Hamilton got his points but he wasn't very efficient in doing so. In game two Hamilton took 25 shots to score 26 points. Hamilton had a great game three though, by far his best game of the series. Do you recall who on the Lakers guarded Hamilton when he stunk it up in game five?


Also Hamilton wasn't exactly Jordan. He was a great player, and that was during his prime, but if Kobe is an "elite defender" he shouldn't have problems guarding him.

fair point. but i'd maintain that the only game Hamilton really ripped it up was game three. he may have gotten his points in other games but he took a lot of shots to get them and generally speaking he had an inefficient series, barley cracking the .500 mark in TS%.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 02:56 PM
I'm not saying Kobe shouldn't dominate the ball, I'm saying if you have Payton in there you might as well have him run some plays with Shaq. Kobe shot way too much that series and played crap defense. Nuff said. He tried to prove himself that series...

Seriously watch the series again. That series shows what exactly makes Kobe not a top 10 player. His inability to play with other great players, his greediness, and his inability to play good defense for an entire game.

one series can define a players career? that's a bit harsh.

Tymathee
06-13-2013, 03:08 PM
Let me tell you a secret:

Even the great Michael Jordan got scorched at times on defense, it's very difficult, there are very few wing players who could shoulder the load Kobe does on offense and give a consistent 100% defense effort on defense, especially a guard.

there are screens, double teams, chasing 3pt shooters from one side to the other.

Kobe's biggest issue is he gambles and he plays free safety a lot, not wanting to allow someone to beat him to the basketball but having issues against shooters because he sags off on them a lot.

If you are a guy who will hold the ball and try to take Kobe on iso, he will do well on you, (pg's usually did well because of fisher, who ironically is great against shooters) but if you're a guy that runs off screens, goes from corner to corner, Kobe has issues.

So there is no myth, basketball people just see something the casual fan doesn't.

To evaluate, lets look back 10 years to a 24 year old Kobe Bryant, just entering his prime, and fresh off a 3 year run of championships.

Kobe posted a 103 defense rating, the best that year by a SG?

98 by Kerry Kittles, Usage rate 19.1
Tied are Ginobli (rate 18.5), Cristie (rate 12.7)
next is SJax with a 99 but has an offense rating of 99 (and a weird usage of 22.7...) and Ryan Bowen with a 11.7 usage

Now, the first SG with a usage close to Kobe is Pierce, with a 33.7 and 100 def rating, compare that to Kobe's 32.7 and 103 and now you can get a taste as to how hard it is.

In the 02-03 season, there was not one Wing player with a usage rate of 30% or more with a rating 100 or lower except pierce (listed SG but we all know is a SF)

So quit with the Kobe hating. Comparatively, for an offensive player who controlled the offense as much as he did, he was a good defender and if you think those Lakers teams did well defensively off the strength of Fisher, Shaq and Fox, you didn't know them very well.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 03:08 PM
Kobe only guarded Hamilton through games 1-3 before they took him off him. Which if you look at the stats Hamilton destroyed Kobe in both game 2 and 3.

Also Hamilton wasn't exactly Jordan. He was a great player, and that was during his prime, but if Kobe is an "elite defender" he shouldn't have problems guarding him.

just to clarify- after checking out the numbers (you got my curious).

Hamilton posted a TS% of .493 through the first three games. He posted a TS% of .515 in games four and five combined. taking you by your word (i really don't remember) hamilton got more efficient by the slightest of margins once he wasn't guarded by Kobe.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 03:13 PM
i don't remember that- but i'll go check out the footage.

I wouldn't say Hamilton destroyed him. Hamilton scored 12 points on 5/16 shooting in game one. Even in the games you mentioned Hamilton got his points but he wasn't very efficient in doing so. In game two Hamilton took 25 shots to score 26 points. Hamilton had a great game three though, by far his best game of the series. Do you recall who on the Lakers guarded Hamilton when he stunk it up in game five?



fair point. but i'd maintain that the only game Hamilton really ripped it up was game three. he may have gotten his points in other games but he took a lot of shots to get them and generally speaking he had an inefficient series, barley cracking the .500 mark in TS%.

I honestly don't remember. Game 3 was the most memorable game of that series for me. People really thought the Lakers were gonna dominate the Pistons, and after getting destroyed in game 3 Phil started to change things up. Game 3 is one of Kobe's worst performances in finals history on both ends of the court.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 03:15 PM
And that game was probably the biggest reason they lost that series. You never hear how it was Kobes fault though. He never got any blame.

Toadman
06-13-2013, 03:27 PM
When U are the main Offensive weapon on your team, U need to save ur energy for scoring. When he was younger he could give both sides of the floor maximum energy but as he got older it devoted it to the scoring side.
Just look at the past 2 Olympics. On those teams took it upon himself to defend the best perimeter player on each
team. Coach K said his defense was stellar & crucial for the wins. When he can devote all his energy to defense he is one the best. Many of the top defenders mentioned, that's all they did.

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 03:28 PM
just to clarify- after checking out the numbers (you got my curious).

Hamilton posted a TS% of .493 through the first three games. He posted a TS% of .515 in games four and five combined. taking you by your word (i really don't remember) hamilton got more efficient by the slightest of margins once he wasn't guarded by Kobe.

And to me those margins tell you that Kobe wasn't shutting him down. He didn't have a huge effect on Hamilton's game.

Would you agree?

ztilzer31
06-13-2013, 03:29 PM
When U are the main Offensive weapon on your team, U need to save ur energy for scoring. When he was younger he could give both sides of the floor maximum energy but as he got older it devoted it to the scoring side.
Just look at the past 2 Olympics. On those teams took it upon himself to defend the best perimeter player on each
team. Coach K said his defense was stellar & crucial for the wins. When he can devote all his energy to defense he is one the best. Many of the top defenders mentioned, that's all they did.

Kobe Bryant was not the main offensive weapon on the team. That team was carried by the most dominant offensive big man (maybe player in general) in the games history. Shaq was a beast. He was 10x the scorer Kobe was.

Kobe2324
06-13-2013, 03:30 PM
I agree the last few years have been rough on D with a glimpse here and there of good D when needed but he was a really good defender before he was never known as a lockdown D guy but in crunch time he was a good defender and if he didnt have to expend so much energy in scoring we would probly see a great defender like he was in the olympics when he literally locked down every player he guarded.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 03:30 PM
I honestly don't remember. Game 3 was the most memorable game of that series for me. People really thought the Lakers were gonna dominate the Pistons, and after getting destroyed in game 3 Phil started to change things up. Game 3 is one of Kobe's worst performances in finals history on both ends of the court.

kobe was garbage in games three and four. he actually had a lower game score in game four. shaq stunk it up in game three also. i'm going to watch game three right now.

Bruno
06-13-2013, 03:36 PM
And to me those margins tell you that Kobe wasn't shutting him down. He didn't have a huge effect on Hamilton's game.

Would you agree?

its hard to say because rip still got his in terms of ppg, he just wasn't the most efficient in getting those points. know what i mean? its hard to say a guy like Hamilton got locked down when he still put up 20+ ppg, but the efficiency numbers seemed to be the same regardless of who was guarding him. and who knows how the team defensive scheme worked against Hamilton- i gotta rewatch it.

hamilton ripped it up in game three big time.

Toadman
06-13-2013, 04:02 PM
10x the scorer? So When Kobe was scoring 22 points a game Shaq was scoring 220? Exaggerate much?
Also whenever the games were close near the end, Kobe was always the focal point. Ever hear of Hack a Shaq?

ewmania
06-13-2013, 04:11 PM
kobe was a pretty solid defender in his prime during the laker shaq days. he was never incredible but he was good enough to get by... we're speaking about a kobe in his 30s right now, his legs arent what they use 2 be

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 04:18 PM
better question, when did the myth of Kobe being a career long average defender begin? you don't get as many defensive teams as he gets without being great. sure, the past 2-3 have been career achievementesque, but to pretend like the first seven or eight nods weren't legitimate is inaccurate.

Kobe played fantastic defense from 1999 until about 2004. He was then very good from 2006-2009 but had to save his legs due to his enormous offensive role. from 2010 on he has been average on a daily basis but can still lock down given defender when necessary (i.e., this years runs of shutting down elite PGs with nash out).:clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-13-2013, 04:25 PM
Which might I add was a team with 4 hall of famers, and really highlighted Kobe's inability to play with other great players. He never let Payton run the offense. It's like he was shooting to prove he was the alpha male all season. He played like trash that season, and all the blame went to Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Meanwhile Lebron has one bad game and that series is his fault... It's really pathetic how the scale is so tipped in peoples criticisms of LBJ and Kobe.


Kobe Bryant was not the main offensive weapon on the team. That team was carried by the most dominant offensive big man (maybe player in general) in the games history. Shaq was a beast. He was 10x the scorer Kobe was.

Double :facepalm:

3RDASYSTEM
06-13-2013, 04:28 PM
Let me tell you a secret:

Even the great Michael Jordan got scorched at times on defense, it's very difficult, there are very few wing players who could shoulder the load Kobe does on offense and give a consistent 100% defense effort on defense, especially a guard.

there are screens, double teams, chasing 3pt shooters from one side to the other.

Kobe's biggest issue is he gambles and he plays free safety a lot, not wanting to allow someone to beat him to the basketball but having issues against shooters because he sags off on them a lot.

If you are a guy who will hold the ball and try to take Kobe on iso, he will do well on you, (pg's usually did well because of fisher, who ironically is great against shooters) but if you're a guy that runs off screens, goes from corner to corner, Kobe has issues.

So there is no myth, basketball people just see something the casual fan doesn't.

To evaluate, lets look back 10 years to a 24 year old Kobe Bryant, just entering his prime, and fresh off a 3 year run of championships.

Kobe posted a 103 defense rating, the best that year by a SG?

98 by Kerry Kittles, Usage rate 19.1
Tied are Ginobli (rate 18.5), Cristie (rate 12.7)
next is SJax with a 99 but has an offense rating of 99 (and a weird usage of 22.7...) and Ryan Bowen with a 11.7 usage

Now, the first SG with a usage close to Kobe is Pierce, with a 33.7 and 100 def rating, compare that to Kobe's 32.7 and 103 and now you can get a taste as to how hard it is.

In the 02-03 season, there was not one Wing player with a usage rate of 30% or more with a rating 100 or lower except pierce (listed SG but we all know is a SF)

So quit with the Kobe hating. Comparatively, for an offensive player who controlled the offense as much as he did, he was a good defender and if you think those Lakers teams did well defensively off the strength of Fisher, Shaq and Fox, you didn't know them very well.

I used this same exact theory with IVERSON playing with mckie/snow then to iggy/korver and still leading the league in steals and scoring and shooting 30x a game and people kept saying he was a gambler and such and a chucker(as if he's sharing the court with 2 allnba players)

and im thinking AI play injured, play the most minutes, play the most minutes injured, playing with fringe dleague roster players(not starters) and im thinking how is he supposed to play this lockdown d when he's asked to do way too much and he's 5'10'' 155lbs, not 7'1'' 340 athletic freak, but the complete exact opposite, nate robinson plus 2inches

what 5'10'' PG/SG ever played lockdown d and had to shoulder a scoring load worse than JORDAN in his early BULLS yrs and a longer period of time?

name me a so called top 10 best player ever to play with a core for 7yrs on the level I mentioned AI done? bean did it from 05-07' and wined and *****ed out his mind to be traded or get extra help but he had SHAQ for previous 8yrs

how and why is AI held at different standards? he wasn't that super good was he?

I just knock bean for being a backup player his first 3yrs and winning his lone mvp 12yrs into his career, that's a mighty long time for the best player of his generation, he couldn't win it in like his 4 or 5th yr like a BRON-IVERSON? 12yrs later? I mean damn I know hype from a million miles away

24 is entering a prime?

but what if certain players were that good at 17-18yrs old? and then the same at 24 and 28yrs old?

that's how I look at bean, he was primed as HSPOY, he came straight out of HS, how is that not primed?

if he wasn't primed he should have went to DUKE and developed

I sware you guys are just bored and make up **** after hearing it spewed a million times over

I bet if SHAQ had won that 95' title then he would have been labeled prime right? but since he did it in LA 5yrs later that was his prime, a 3peat in his prime after failing to win a title in his earlier prime,thats more like it

I guess some are just primed longer than others, no big deal

DLCK
06-13-2013, 04:31 PM
Why are the Bowen's and Allen's of the world even being brought up.. it's easy to look good playing defense when u are barely averaging 29-30 min a game and not expected to take more then 5 -8 shots a game on the offensive side.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Kobe was a great defender. He never had a great defensive sidekick on the wing to alleviate pressure off him on the defensive end. He's been known as a defensive stopper and has always been a monster on offense. But a little perspective... He has been in the league 15+ years and think about the said players in this thread who were in the discussion with him and now are on the decline... I mean look at Wade... It's amazing how you haters still fail to acknowledge Kobe's greatness and longevity. I mean... WOW. I'm no LeBron fan but I appreciate his talent. Any true basketball fan would. You won't appreciate Kobe's talent until he's gone. But back to the OP... It was never a "myth".

I think there is some truth to that and i think it goes for many players that are in the game for a long time and have the personality that Kobe has. Not to say there isn't any merit to the criticism because there is but I feel when he retires and is away from the game for a while the perception of him will change a bit.

MickeyMgl
06-13-2013, 05:18 PM
How is that a terrible post? It's absolutely true. Especially the Rip Hamilton part. Anyone who watched that series remember how Hamilton was tearing up Kobe, and I believe it was after game 3 that Phil took Kobe off of Hamilton, because "Kobe was spending too much energy on defense".

You're shooting for an even worse post? What you say above is absolutely false. Anyone who watched that series remembers Hamilton completely flummoxed by Kobe's defense. He was switched to Billups, who was the one hurting them, and then Hamilton was more effective against Fisher and Payton.

tredigs
06-13-2013, 05:35 PM
better question, when did the myth of Kobe being a career long average defender begin? you don't get as many defensive teams as he gets without being great. sure, the past 2-3 have been career achievementesque, but to pretend like the first seven or eight nods weren't legitimate is inaccurate.

Kobe played fantastic defense from 1999 until about 2004. He was then very good from 2006-2009 but had to save his legs due to his enormous offensive role. from 2010 on he has been average on a daily basis but can still lock down given defender when necessary (i.e., this years runs of shutting down elite PGs with nash out).
Are you sure though, Bruno? This is a guy who to THIS day is still receiving all defensive FIRST team votes from multiple coaches in the NBA. I get tired of harping on Kobe for this and having to hear the backlash, but I truly don't believe he has been a top 4 guard defender in any of the past 10 seasons when all facets of defense and not taking plays off (commonly) are taken into consideration. Virtually all wing defensive specialists are better on that side of the ball than Kobe is.

And for him to STILL be garnering votes despite being a bottom tier defender at his position? It just highlights to me how you can indeed be a sub-par defender and win awards based upon an outdated reputation for being great in specialized situations on that end.

zn23
06-13-2013, 05:53 PM
Probably on youtube.

In Kobe's early days, during the dynasty, he was a pretty solid defender, and by solid I mean his effort was the greatest during those years.

Since 2006 his defense has gotten progressively worse, that's mainly because he puts so much focus on one side of the ball. Occasionally he'll have games like he did against Kyrie Irving and Brandon Jennings, but those are like 2 games in a season.

This year was just an all-time low for him. Worst defensive display I've ever seen from him.

Chronz
06-13-2013, 05:58 PM
kobe was garbage in games three and four. he actually had a lower game score in game four. shaq stunk it up in game three also. i'm going to watch game three right now.

Just finished the first half of G1. Its an interesting series to look back on now

Toadman
06-13-2013, 06:03 PM
Probably on youtube.

In Kobe's early days, during the dynasty, he was a pretty solid defender, and by solid I mean his effort was the greatest during those years.

Since 2006 his defense has gotten progressively worse, that's mainly because he puts so much focus on one side of the ball. Occasionally he'll have games like he did against Kyrie Irving and Brandon Jennings, but those are like 2 games in a season.

This year was just an all-time low for him. Worst defensive display I've ever seen from him.

I'll agree that this year his defense wasn't the greatest. BUT U gotta remember that late in the season he was averaging almost 40 minutes a game while carrying the offensive load. How many minutes is Lebron playing in the PLAYOFFS. What Kobe was doing at 34 years old & 17 years in the league was nothing short of amazing.
I told friends that his body is gonna break down with all these minutes.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2013, 06:14 PM
Why are the Bowen's and Allen's of the world even being brought up.. it's easy to look good playing defense when u are barely averaging 29-30 min a game and not expected to take more then 5 -8 shots a game on the offensive side.


That's what I'm saying. People don't understand the fact that Kobe could lock you up at times AND drop 30-50 on you in the same game is what made people put him in a elite category.

It's like what Barkley said about Rodman. He basically said I can go out there and get you 20 boards a night if that's all I'm doing.

ztilzer31
06-14-2013, 01:09 AM
Double :facepalm:

Whoa crazy Illusionists face palms without any feedback, or any information given at all. Crazy. I'm so use to Illusionists blowing us away with his in depth stats....

Seriously though Illusionist you never have anything good to say in any conversation. All you do is blow the guys that support Kobe's case. You don't know anything about basketball.

ztilzer31
06-14-2013, 01:21 AM
one series can define a players career? that's a bit harsh.

I didn't mean it like that. I meant that, that was what I hated about Kobe all rolled up into one. He couldn't hit any shots, but kept shooting. He didn't play defense, and he took way to many possessions away from Shaq. The 2004 finals is some of the worst basketball you will ever see out of a team in the finals. Kobe seriously did so much to hurt his team that series it was unbelievable, and he took 0 RESPONSIBILITY OR BLAME.

What would happen if LBJ had a game like Kobe did in game 3??? LBJ haters would be going crazy in the forums. However it's Kobe so he gets a pass. He can completely fail his team in the playoff on both ends of the court and still be considered one of the best ever in their minds. Still considered clutch. Still doesn't get any blame for his finals losses. However LBJ can have an off shooting night, and still play terrific defense, and all of a sudden he's the worst player in the NBA again. The bias of some of the people on this forum is seriously unbelievable.

Knowledge
06-14-2013, 02:48 AM
Kobe was able to lock down anyone when he wanted to. But, his consistency as a defender has never been on par with his consistency as a scorer. During the regular season, he was never a night in, night out elite defender. But come playoffs for most of his career, outside the past couple of post seasons, if a perimeter player on the other team was going off on them, or had the potential to, Kobe did a great job of limiting them.

I do think his defensive reputation, ie, awards, are overrated. Only because of the level of consistency I personally feel one has to achieve to make the all defensive teams.

A lot of great players fit the "when he wanted to, he could do it" standard.

OaklandsFinest
06-14-2013, 02:53 AM
As stated previously, Kobe was an elite defender who just rarely displayed it. Thats why in my opinion Kobe already isn't the player Lebron is based on effort alone. Kobe being 1st team all defense ever is why the list is a joke in the first place. I still remember Sprewell tearing the pieces off of Kobe in MSG.

OceanSpray
06-14-2013, 03:06 AM
That's what I'm saying. People don't understand the fact that Kobe could lock you up at times AND drop 30-50 on you in the same game is what made people put him in a elite category.

It's like what Barkley said about Rodman. He basically said I can go out there and get you 20 boards a night if that's all I'm doing.

Lock you up at times doesn't make you an ALL NBA defensive player..

zn23
06-14-2013, 10:06 AM
That's what I'm saying. People don't understand the fact that Kobe could lock you up at times AND drop 30-50 on you in the same game is what made people put him in a elite category.

It's like what Barkley said about Rodman. He basically said I can go out there and get you 20 boards a night if that's all I'm doing.

when has he ever done that?

BigCityofDreams
06-14-2013, 10:18 AM
I didn't mean it like that. I meant that, that was what I hated about Kobe all rolled up into one. He couldn't hit any shots, but kept shooting. He didn't play defense, and he took way to many possessions away from Shaq. The 2004 finals is some of the worst basketball you will ever see out of a team in the finals. Kobe seriously did so much to hurt his team that series it was unbelievable, and he took 0 RESPONSIBILITY OR BLAME.

What would happen if LBJ had a game like Kobe did in game 3??? LBJ haters would be going crazy in the forums. However it's Kobe so he gets a pass. He can completely fail his team in the playoff on both ends of the court and still be considered one of the best ever in their minds. Still considered clutch. Still doesn't get any blame for his finals losses. However LBJ can have an off shooting night, and still play terrific defense, and all of a sudden he's the worst player in the NBA again. The bias of some of the people on this forum is seriously unbelievable.

Lol you can always tell when a Lebron fan or a Heat fan exaggerates. Before Lebron became public enemy number 1 Kobe was hated on from all sides. Whether it was getting along with Shaq, the Jordan comparisons, shooting too much, or trying to show he was the leader of the Lakers. Hell when the Lakers lost to the Celtics in 08 that was a black mark on his career. Then add the Shaq freestyle that came out soon after and Kobe was being clowned for several months. Let's not make it seem like Kobe never gets hated on for his short comings. Hell some fans still bring up his air balls against the Jazz early in his career.