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View Full Version : ESPN Ranks the greatest Finals Runs of All-Time (Jordan '91, Lebron '12, Duncan '03)



JerseyPalahniuk
06-10-2013, 02:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5

1. Jordan 1991
2. Lebron 2012
3. Duncan 2003
4. Shaq 2000
5. Jordan 1993
6. Shaq 2001
7. The Dream '94
8. Moses Malone '83
9. Larry Bird '84
10. Larry Bird '86
11. Duncan '99
12. Shaq '02
13. D. Wade '06

Rest is ESPN Insider...thanks to mjm07 for #7-13.

Edit: This is NOT just the Finals, it's the entire playoff run (i.e. Wade not there - he was ESPN's #1 or #2 pick for greatest Finals performance when they came out with that). As mentioned in the post below, read the summaries for explanations.

JerseyPalahniuk
06-10-2013, 02:34 PM
Please read the summaries before voicing your opinions. I too was surprised about Duncan > Shaq but agree after reading how incredible Duncan's run that year was.

Cal827
06-10-2013, 02:35 PM
Surprised Wade wasn't up there from their first title. Even with the refs, he did absolutely go off in that series.

ManRam
06-10-2013, 02:39 PM
Jordan's 91 is definitely the hallmark.

Duncan is way too high, but granted I didn't read the summary like JerseyPalahniuk said I should.

I think the other 4 should be there, not sure I can spit out an order just thinking about it for 30 seconds though. Wade maybe should be there, but I think people overrate that one just slightly. He was tremendous, maybe top 10 ever, but it's not up there with these guys'.

Devster3
06-10-2013, 02:43 PM
I'm curious to see where Dirk's 2011 title ranks in at?

I agree with the rest after reading the summaries. I also am curious to see if Lebron will have more games like he did in last years playoffs. If he gets a floater over the summer maybe we can see some even crazier stat lines.

One thing they don't factor in, is Lebron this year is effecting the game in ways that don't show up on the stat line so how do you work that in?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:45 PM
Since the goal of a postseason run is the title, I also added one WARP for champions. And, though it doesn't always go to the player who was best in the playoffs, I also awarded a 0.5 WARP bonus to each year's Finals MVP.

Do not agree with arbitrary standard


For example, Duncan and the Spurs played 24 games en route to the 2003 title, while Shaquille O'Neal and the Los Angeles Lakers needed 16 to win in 2001. Both teams get the same trophy, so they should get equal credit.
I get the rationale, but laying waste to teams in less games should be treated with more respect.

bucketss
06-10-2013, 02:46 PM
why no wade?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:47 PM
why no wade?
His run to the Finals was pretty pedestrian (historically wise)

DreamShaker
06-10-2013, 02:48 PM
Pretty sure you cannot post full insider articles on here. What you did is fine, but anything more I think is against the rules. Been awhile since I have been a mod. Lol. But thanks for the link! I am an insider and I am going to check it out. Good stuff.

DreamShaker
06-10-2013, 02:54 PM
I'm curious to see where Dirk's 2011 title ranks in at?

I agree with the rest after reading the summaries. I also am curious to see if Lebron will have more games like he did in last years playoffs. If he gets a floater over the summer maybe we can see some even crazier stat lines.

One thing they don't factor in, is Lebron this year is effecting the game in ways that don't show up on the stat line so how do you work that in?

I just checked on Dirk. He was number 50. Pretty shocking. Guys who didn't even make the finals were above him.

mjm07
06-10-2013, 02:58 PM
7. The Dream '94
8. Moses Malone '83
9. Larry Bird '84
10. Larry Bird '86
11. Duncan '99
12. Shaq '02
13. D. Wade '06

mjm07
06-10-2013, 03:00 PM
I just checked on Dirk. He was number 50. Pretty shocking. Guys who didn't even make the finals were above him.

Dirks '06 went #40 after Lebron '07 run.

HouRealCoach
06-10-2013, 03:06 PM
Hyping up Duncan & LeBron... If it were Heat vs. Lakers, they'd replace Duncan with Kobe

abe_froman
06-10-2013, 03:12 PM
I just checked on Dirk. He was number 50. Pretty shocking. Guys who didn't even make the finals were above him.

he had some pretty yawn/bad games during that run ,he had several games(more than a few times in the 30's) were he didnt crack the mendoza line in terms of shooting%

JerseyPalahniuk
06-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Hyping up Duncan & LeBron... If it were Heat vs. Lakers, they'd replace Duncan with Kobe

People with insider, what was Kobe's highest ranked Finals run?

mjm07
06-10-2013, 03:28 PM
People with insider, what was Kobe's highest ranked Finals run?

17. Kobe 2009

ATX
06-10-2013, 03:41 PM
Funny, cause I don't see Kobe Bryant's name on there anywhere. Interesting...

mjm07
06-10-2013, 03:46 PM
its takes a while to find him but eventually you will.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2013, 03:51 PM
People with insider, what was Kobe's highest ranked Finals run?

17th

Hawkeye15
06-10-2013, 03:52 PM
Funny, cause I don't see Kobe Bryant's name on there anywhere. Interesting...

Shaqs 3 runs with the Lakers are all up there. It shows why many, including myself, say that Kobe's all time ranking is due to his unreal consistency at a very high level, not his peak, which just doesn't match up with any other top 10 players.

lpdunks8
06-10-2013, 03:52 PM
17. Kobe 2009

I'm surprised this is his highest ranking.

In 2001 (at age 22):

Record 15-1 MPG 43.4 PPG 29.4 RPG 7.2 APG 6.1 SPG 1.6

FYL_McVeezy
06-10-2013, 03:53 PM
Dirk's 2011 run has to get at least some consideration....he went on a God like tear in the entire playoffs that season....

ManRam
06-10-2013, 03:55 PM
17 seems low for kobe, but nothing he did with shaq is gonna make the list, and statistically he just wasn't super impressive in the other two, at least not historically-so. i guess it make sense...but it just looks off.

Riodagoat
06-10-2013, 03:55 PM
Inb4 Kobe fanboys whining about Kobe not being on that list.

But to get on topic, I can see why Duncan was #1. Didn't even realize why until after I read the article.

ManRam
06-10-2013, 03:57 PM
dirk was great in 2011, but we're talking ALL TIME here...what he did statistically doesn't quite compare to some of the better ones. now, factoring in who he had as help and who he was going against should boost his claim, but i'm not sure it vaults him to the top 10.

it wasn't even his best individual playoffs. i think he was better in 2006.

FYL_McVeezy
06-10-2013, 04:00 PM
dirk was great in 2011, but we're talking ALL TIME here...what he did statistically doesn't quite compare to some of the better ones. now, factoring in who he had as help and who he was going against should boost his claim, but i'm not sure it vaults him to the top 10.

it wasn't even his best individual playoffs. i think he was better in 2006.

you're prob right. I still have to read the article....

tredigs
06-10-2013, 04:08 PM
If we're talking about one guy - not the team - going on a tear to win a ship, I can't figure out how Rick Barry's title run (probably the most unpredictable of all time) wouldn't even crack the top 10. Foolish rankings imo. There should be far more credit given to players whose teams wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs without them, let alone win a title. Duncan '03 should be right up there, rightfully so.

2-ONE-5
06-10-2013, 04:13 PM
wheres 01 AI? he had a pretty damn good postseason

JordansBulls
06-10-2013, 04:16 PM
Why is this list different then this one?

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8100287/nba-playoffs-greatest-individual-playoff-runs


We're rating only playoff performances that ended in a title, so James' mind-numbing 2009 postseason and Michael Jordan's 1990 masterpiece don't make the cut.

With all that out of the way, let's look through a statistical lens to see where James' 2011-12 title run ranks among the best we've ever seen.

10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat, 2006
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
28.4 5.9 5.7 2.2 1.1 3.9 49.7 37.8 80.8 26.9 100

Wade may owe a few thank-you notes to James and Chris Bosh for helping him get his second ring, but the 2006 Finals MVP certainly earned his first one.

You can argue that Kobe Bryant deserves a spot in this top 10. But Shaquille O'Neal was no longer in his prime when he paired with Wade, and Wade's 2006 PER and field goal percentage top Kobe's bests in 2000-01, his personal best stretch that ended with a title. Wade may trail Bryant in total rings, but, statistically, his 2006 run holds the upper hand.


9. Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1996
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
30.7 4.9 4.1 1.8 0.3 2.3 45.9 40.3 81.8 26.7 101

Other players have had stronger efficiency ratings than Jordan did in 1996, but his defensive contributions were stellar this time around. Jordan wasn't quite the scorer he was pre-Birmingham Barons, but he was still head and shoulders above the competition. The Bulls lost only three games in this postseason run after becoming the winningest team in regular-season history (72-10).

This wasn't Jordan's best statistical postseason, but other athletes would give an arm and a leg if they could finish a postseason with 30-5-4 averages. And we'll always remember this title run for Jordan's emotional embrace of the game ball after the Bulls' final victory over the Seattle SuperSonics in the Finals.


8. Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston Rockets, 1994
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
28.9 11.1 4.3 1.7 4.0 3.6 51.9 50.0 79.5 27.7 97

Considering the downward spiral of the center position, we may never see another postseason like this one. En route to his first title at age 31, Olajuwon totaled a postseason-best 92 blocks -- 13 more than the second most in history, Tim Duncan in 2003, and 16 more than his Finals nemesis that season, Patrick Ewing.

But it was so much more than a block party. Olajuwon dropped a nightly 27-and-9 against Ewing in a matchup of two of the greatest centers in the game at the time. Ewing shot a miserable 36.3 percent in the series, and Olajuwon became the first player to collect Defensive Player of the Year, MVP and Finals MVP awards in the same season.


7. Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers, 2001
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
30.4 15.4 3.2 0.4 2.4 3.6 55.5 -- 52.5 28.7 96

From a statistical perspective, Shaq was in the driver's seat during the Lakers' Finals runs more than Bryant was. Shaq posted bigger numbers than Kobe in each of their three-peat postseasons. Though Bryant will be remembered as the better scorer, it was Shaq who led the team in points even in Bryant's best postseasons.

Shaq bulldozed his way to the 2001 title much like he did the previous season, but his turnover rate spiked during his encore performance, which explains the almost two-point dip in PER. Because many felt his size was more responsible for his utter dominance than his skill, it's easy to forget that Shaq was a statistical juggernaut with few equals. He holds the two best PERs for big men in title-winning seasons. This is one of them.


6. Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1998
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
32.4 5.1 3.5 1.5 0.5 2.1 46.2 30.2 81.2 28.1 103

Jordan again? Get used to it.

No one will forget Jordan's iconic shot that silenced the Salt Lake City crowd in Game 6. That was just two of his 45 points in the title-clinching game, but it capped off another marvelous postseason from His Airness. Jordan's 1998 title run -- his last -- still haunts the Jazz organization to this day even though he wasn't the distributor or defensive ace he was earlier in his career. Jordan picked Karl Malone's pocket in the post in the final minute of Game 6, but his teams were better defensively in their earlier runs.

Still, few players have ever come close to Jordan's 28.1 postseason PER -- even though it doesn't crack his top three overall or his top two in title years. Jordan ended his title runs with a bang, but overall, he has done better.


5. Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1993
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
35.1 6.8 6.0 2.1 0.9 2.4 47.5 38.9 80.5 30.1 105

Charles Barkley felt Jordan's bitter wrath in this Finals campaign. After Barkley edged him out for the regular-season MVP, Jordan bested Sir Charles in the championship series by putting on a scoring clinic that included a 55-point outing in Game 4 amid a four-game streak of 40-plus points. Put it this way: Jordan clinched his fourth ring by scoring "just" 33 points in Game 6, which was somehow below his average during this postseason.

This was the last we saw of Jordan before he switched industries and became a professional baseball player. Though Jordan maintained he was chasing a childhood dream, it's also possible that he got bored of averaging 35-5-5 against the league's top competition. If this wasn't the Bulls' worst defensive title team, this performance might rank higher on the list.

4. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs, 2003
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
24.7 15.4 5.3 0.6 3.3 3.2 52.9 0.0 67.7 28.4 92

If you want to see what dominating on both ends of the floor looks like, turn on the 2003 Finals and watch Duncan go to work. Duncan was masterful in this postseason, but no one really talks about it (then again, when do people ever talk about the Big Fundamental?). A Spurs-Nets championship series may have induced drowsiness, but that's because Duncan put the Nets to sleep. How good do you have to be to average 3.3 blocks and 5.3 assists per game?

This stretch from Duncan remains the top Win Shares (5.9) performance in playoff history, but that has more to do with the fact that the Spurs played a whopping 24 games during their run, compared to, say, Jordan's 16 playoff games in 1990. Tough to rack up stats in games you don't play.


3. Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers, 2000
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
30.7 15.4 3.1 0.6 2.4 2.4 56.6 -- 45.6 30.5 104

How come Shaq's 30.5 PER (the second-highest ever) doesn't find itself higher than James' latest run? Because O'Neal anchored one of the worst championship defenses ever. Despite winning the title, the Lakers ranked 13th at defense among 16 playoff teams -- astonishing considering they had a 7-foot-1 behemoth under the rim. Shaq has never been known for signature defensive contributions, but it's hard to overlook the defensive numbers of this Lakers squad.

Still, 30 and 15 on 56.6 percent shooting? Those are video-game numbers. Even with the laughable free throw shooting percentage, O'Neal was an efficiency monster in this run. Shaq capped off a dominant offensive postseason with a much-deserved Finals MVP.


2. LeBron James, Miami Heat, 2012
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
30.3 9.7 5.6 1.9 0.7 3.5 50.0 25.9 73.9 30.3 99

This is the best non-MJ Finals run of all time. James' PER ranks fourth in NBA postseason history, but there's no metric on the planet that can properly measure his do-it-all value defensively. James earned his "1-through-5" nickname from Erik Spoelstra for a reason; this might have been the most impressive defensive performance from a wing player ever. James guarded everyone, including Rajon Rondo, Kevin Durant and Tyson Chandler, in his pursuit of a title and never shied away from a defensive assignment.

Although his elite defensive rating reflects a portion of his defensive contributions, it simply doesn't account for his invaluable flexibility. He gets extra bonus points for that. Statistically, James could have been a tad sharper with the ball, from the free throw line and from downtown, but that's like complaining a Rolls Royce can't fly. If James polishes his perimeter shooting game, the top spot on this list is in jeopardy.


1. Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls, 1991
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% 3P% FT% PER DRtg
31.1 6.4 8.4 2.4 1.4 2.5 52.4 38.5 84.5 32.0 101

This is as close to perfection as we might ever see. For a guard to shoot 52 percent from the floor, dish out almost four assists for every turnover and shoot just about 40 percent from downtown is not just historical, it's bordering on supernatural.

One could argue that points per game should be the ultimate barometer, but the currency of basketball is efficient team scoring, not individual scoring. In 1991, Jordan did just about everything to help his team put the ball in the basket and prevent the opponent from doing so. Consider this: Jordan as a shooting guard averaged twice as many blocks as James did in the No. 2 campaign on this list. This is the best ever, but remember, folks, James is just 27 years old.


Honorable mentions: Magic Johnson, 1987; Bryant, 2001, 2009, 2010; Dirk Nowitzki, 2011; Olajuwon, 1995; Duncan, 2007; Larry Bird, 1984; O'Neal, 2002.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:20 PM
Wait what?? No 2011 Dirk? That was THE greatest I've witnessed in my lifetime of watching ball, right there with Wade's 06 run. Can't believe that ranked 50 SMH.

feelingit
06-10-2013, 04:24 PM
Have a lot of problems with LeBron being #2. He had Wade and Bosh.

ManRam
06-10-2013, 04:29 PM
Why is this list different then this one?

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8100287/nba-playoffs-greatest-individual-playoff-runs

because two different people did it...

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:35 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9357345/greatest-individual-postseasons-1-5

1. Jordan 1991
2. Lebron 2012
3. Duncan 2003
4. Shaq 2000
5. Jordan 1993
6. Shaq 2001
7. The Dream '94
8. Moses Malone '83
9. Larry Bird '84
10. Larry Bird '86
11. Duncan '99
12. Shaq '02
13. D. Wade '06

Rest is ESPN Insider...thanks to mjm07 for #7-13.

Edit: This is NOT just the Finals, it's the entire playoff run (i.e. Wade not there - he was ESPN's #1 or #2 pick for greatest Finals performance when they came out with that). As mentioned in the post below, read the summaries for explanations.

Duncan 99 should not be up there. Lock out season

Lebron 2012 should not be up there and is waaaaay to high on that list. Lock out season. Too much help from the refs to get past Boston.

Wade 2006 was a complete mockery of the sport and should never be mentioned again due the overwhelming amount of help he got from the refs. 96 free throw attempts in 6 games (NBA record) is not impressive to me at all. Bennett Salvatore should be up there instead perhaps.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:36 PM
Have a lot of problems with LeBron being #2. He had Wade and Bosh.

Just more BSPN hype because ratings are low.

herewegocubbies
06-10-2013, 04:40 PM
Duncan 99 should not be up there. Lock out season

Lebron 2012 should not be up there and is waaaaay to high on that list. Lock out season. Too much help from the refs to get past Boston.

Wade 2006 was a complete mockery of the sport and should never be mentioned again due the overwhelming amount of help he got from the refs. 96 free throw attempts in 6 games (NBA record) is not impressive to me at all. Bennett Salvatore should be up there instead perhaps.

HAAHAHAHAH KOBEPHILE at his best. You guys are great, one of the main reasons I read this board. Your blinded opinions are so comical. Don't ever stop, you are the best!

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 04:40 PM
imo LeBron's 2012 run should be #1. the dude averaged 30 10 and 6 for the FULL playoffs all while bosh was injured and wade was VERY limited.

he single handedly not only brought the heat to the finals, but also was the main reason the Heat won the NBA finals.

the dude is a beast.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:42 PM
Shaqs 3 runs with the Lakers are all up there. It shows why many, including myself, say that Kobe's all time ranking is due to his unreal consistency at a very high level, not his peak, which just doesn't match up with any other top 10 players.

Funny, because Kobe was by far the catalyst in the 2001 run during the majority of the playoffs and was a major reason they nearly swept the entire thing. Shaq was better in the finals, but Kobe was better during the Western Conference run where they faced their toughest competition by far. Any list that does not give Kobe credit for the 2001 playoff run is a joke to me. 2012 Lebron in a lockout season where he had no real competition and the refs had to bail him out against Boston is not anywhere near as impressive as going 15-1 in the playoffs against good competition. Lebron at number 2 is a joke and an obvious attempt by BSPN to boost ratings for the finals.

West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.

They give the Finals MVP award based on contribution in the Finals only, not throughout the playoffs, where Kobe was the obvious MVP.


now go ahead and tell me that Shaq didn't need Kobe and Kobe didn't need Shaq. They were equal easily.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:44 PM
imo LeBron's 2012 run should be #1. the dude averaged 30 10 and 6 for the FULL playoffs all while bosh was injured and wade was VERY limited.

he single handedly not only brought the heat to the finals, but also was the main reason the Heat won the NBA finals.



the dude is a beast.

:laugh:

Lockout season.

What about Shaq and Kobe going 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs against far tougher competition than anything Lebron faced in 2012.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2013, 04:44 PM
imo LeBron's 2012 run should be #1. the dude averaged 30 10 and 6 for the FULL playoffs all while bosh was injured and wade was VERY limited.

he single handedly not only brought the heat to the finals, but also was the main reason the Heat won the NBA finals.

the dude is a beast.

Jordan's 91 run was probably better though. He was unreal the entire playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jordami01&y1=1991&p2=jamesle01&y2=2012

Statistically, Jordan was easily better. All other factors considered, Jordan wins that comparison.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 04:44 PM
these playoffs, he's averaging "only" 25 8 7 on 50.5% shooting on 4 less field goal attempts compared to last year, with his w/s 48 being on par from last year.

last year, he went 30 10 6 on 50% fg.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 04:47 PM
:laugh:

Lockout season.

What about Shaq and Kobe going 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs against far tougher competition than anything Lebron faced in 2012.

apparently lockout season means you play less in the playoffs?

:confused:

just stop typing, bro lmao

bucketss
06-10-2013, 04:47 PM
Have a lot of problems with LeBron being #2. He had Wade and Bosh.

wade was playing injured, bosh was gone for almost two full series, nice try tho.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 04:48 PM
yeah I guess the New Jersey Nets would be a better team than the Thunder or Celtics amiright?

Kobe5!

bucketss
06-10-2013, 04:49 PM
Lol. kobe fans already got their excuse lined up if duncan wins his fifth championship. IT WAS A SHORT SEASON LMAO. they never used that against him before.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:50 PM
HAAHAHAHAH KOBEPHILE at his best. You guys are great, one of the main reasons I read this board. Your blinded opinions are so comical. Don't ever stop, you are the best!

So can you explain one good reason why Lebron's 2012 run is more impressive than Kobe and Shaq going 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs against what is obviously better competition than any team Lebron faced in 2012? Or is calling me a "Kobephile" the best you can do?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:51 PM
Why is this list different then this one?

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/8100287/nba-playoffs-greatest-individual-playoff-runs

Because although the 2 lists were published by the same company, not every employee in that company shares the same opinion as everyone else. In essence, its like 2 entirely different people wrote it. If it helps, I believe both are males.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 04:53 PM
So can you explain one good reason why Lebron's 2012 run is more impressive than Kobe and Shaq going 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs against what is obviously better competition than any team Lebron faced in 2012? Or is calling me a "Kobephile" the best you can do?

Shaq's 2001 playoff run* not kobe and shaq. why is it that everyone recognizes that it was shaq except kobe fans? im confused lol.. how blind do you have to be?

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:54 PM
yeah I guess the New Jersey Nets would be a better team than the Thunder or Celtics amiright?

Kobe5!

Ugh...western conference. Did Boston even win 50 games in 2012???

Lakers played Philly in the finals BTW who had the MVP Iverson and the DPOY Mutombo. At least on par with OKC talent wise and not as young and inexperienced. The Kings and Spurs were better than any of the teams Lebron faced in the 2012 playoffs, Thunder included. This list is a sham and nothing more than another Lebron media hype tool to boost ratings in an otherwise failure of a finals.

Bruno
06-10-2013, 04:55 PM
Shaqs 3 runs with the Lakers are all up there. It shows why many, including myself, say that Kobe's all time ranking is due to his unreal consistency at a very high level, not his peak, which just doesn't match up with any other top 10 players.

#7: Hakeem, '94 post-season: PER- 27.7, TS%- .568%, WS- 4.3, WS/48- .208.

#8: Malone, '83 post-season: PER- 25.7, TS%- .587%, WS- 2.8, WS/48- .260.

#9 Bird, '84 post-season: PER- 26.3, TS%- .607, WS- 4.7, WS/48- .236.

#10 Bird, '86 post-season: PER- 23.9, TS%- .615, WS- 4.2, WS/48- .263.

#11 Duncan, '99 post-season: PER- 25.1, TS%- .573, WS- 3.7, WS/48- .243.

#13 Wade, '06 post-season: PER- 26.9, TS%- .593, WS- 4.8, WS/48- .240.

Bryant, '09 post-season: PER- 26.8, TS%- .564, WS- 4.7, WS/48- .238

But Bryants peak playoff run in '09 holds its weight with six other runs ranked #7-13 on this list. His numbers are just as good as any of those mentioned above. As for the context of his 2009 run, the Lakers played and defeated three top ten (SRS) team in the western conference on their way to defeating the leagues top defense in the finals. In game one of the finals he became the fourth player in NBA finals history to put up 40/8/8 joining Jordan ('93), Shaq ('02), and West ('69). How does 2009 not hold up all time against other top ten playoff performances when considering the statistical comparison and context?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoM2kwfndw

amos1er
06-10-2013, 04:56 PM
Shaq's 2001 playoff run* not kobe and shaq. why is it that everyone recognizes that it was shaq except kobe fans? im confused lol.. how blind do you have to be?

Wrong. You obviously don't know anything about basketball history other than Lebron's highschool stats.

West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:57 PM
Have some problems with LeBron being #2. He had an injured Wade and an injured Bosh who missed many games.
Fixed for accuracy

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:00 PM
So can you explain one good reason why Lebron's 2012 run is more impressive than Kobe and Shaq going 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs against what is obviously better competition than any team Lebron faced in 2012? Or is calling me a "Kobephile" the best you can do?

the fact they want 15-1 suggests there wasn't competition for them.

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:02 PM
Ugh...western conference. Did Boston even win 50 games in 2012???

Lakers played Philly in the finals BTW who had the MVP Iverson and the DPOY Mutombo. At least on par with OKC talent wise and not as young and inexperienced. The Kings and Spurs were better than any of the teams Lebron faced in the 2012 playoffs, Thunder included. This list is a sham and nothing more than another Lebron media hype tool to boost ratings in an otherwise failure of a finals.

:laugh: philly being on par with okc talent wise

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:04 PM
#7: Hakeem, '94 post-season: PER- 27.7, TS%- .568%, WS- 4.3, WS/48- .208.

#8: Malone, '83 post-season: PER- 25.7, TS%- .587%, WS- 2.8, WS/48- .260.

#9 Bird, '84 post-season: PER- 26.3, TS%- .607, WS- 4.7, WS/48- .236.

#10 Bird, '86 post-season: PER- 23.9, TS%- .615, WS- 4.2, WS/48- .263.

#11 Duncan, '99 post-season: PER- 25.1, TS%- .573, WS- 3.7, WS/48- .243.

#13 Wade, '06 post-season: PER- 26.9, TS%- .593, WS- 4.8, WS/48- .240.

Bryant, '09 post-season: PER- 26.8, TS%- .564, WS- 4.7, WS/48- .238

But Bryants peak playoff run in '09 holds its weight with six other runs ranked #7-13 on this list. His numbers are just as good as any of those mentioned above. As for the context of his 2009 run, the Lakers played and defeated three top ten (SRS) team in the western conference on their way to defeating the leagues top defense in the finals. In game one of the finals he became the fourth player in NBA finals history to put up 40/8/8 joining Jordan ('93), Shaq ('02), and West ('69). How does 2009 not hold up all time against other top ten playoff performances when considering the statistical comparison and context?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoM2kwfndw

:clap:

I love how they don't even account for level of competition either. So if someone puts up crazy numbers against inferior opponents they should be high on this list. But someone who put up good numbers against good opponents is penalized because they didn't have the opportunity to rape the stat sheet against lesser competition. I just don't get it.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 05:07 PM
the fact they want 15-1 suggests there wasn't competition for them.

There really wasn't, Lakers were so much better than anyone else at that moment. It was the only time we've seen 2 players play at such a combined level of play IMO. Im fairly certain the stats would back this too. You back that was a solid supporting cast (I believe they had a disgusting record once Fish came back) and you have a monster bully.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:07 PM
:laugh: philly being on par with okc talent wise

They were more experienced. You can't deny that. In the finals, experience can get you farther than raw talent for sure. I'll take an experienced vet with lesser talent any day.

Iverson was also the reigning MVP and he had Mutombo who was the DPOY. Can't deny that. Iverson was balling that year and was a more accomplished and experienced leader than Durant. Sure Overall OKC had more talent, but what good does that do you if your players choke under pressure like Harden and a few others did. Either way, San Antonio and Sacramento were better than the Thunder for sure.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 05:08 PM
:clap:

I love how they don't even account for level of competition either. So if someone puts up crazy numbers against inferior opponents they should be high on this list. But someone who put up good numbers against good opponents is penalized because they didn't have the opportunity to rape the stat sheet against lesser competition. I just don't get it.

LOL based on what?

Ive seen your posts on stats, color me skeptical. Show me, how would YOU account for these variables?

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:10 PM
There really wasn't, Lakers were so much better than anyone else at that moment. It was the only time we've seen 2 players play at such a combined level of play IMO. Im fairly certain the stats would back this too. You back that was a solid supporting cast (I believe they had a disgusting record once Fish came back) and you have a monster bully.

????

Are you really trying to sell this BS. Who did Lebron face back in 2012 that could even be close to on par with Sacramento or San Antonio that year. Who in the east that Lebron faced even won 50 games. Kobe and Shaq were balling that year yes, and their supporting cast was solid, but Lebron had a top 5 player, a top 15 player and a solid supporting cast as well. Talk about bullies, Lebron's Heat in the eastern conference was David and Goliath.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 05:11 PM
:laugh: philly being on par with okc talent wise
LMFAO a true gem.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:13 PM
LOL based on what?

Ive seen your posts on stats, color me skeptical. Show me, how would YOU account for these variables?

So you don't agree that the 2001 Spurs and Kings were better teams than anything Lebron went up against in 2001. Because that is what this all comes down to.

Even Philly was comparable to the Thunder. More experienced and had the reigning MVP and DPOY on their squad. Thunder had none of the above and their supporting cast chocked in the finals for the most park especially Harden. Age is a huge factor in finals play. You have to admit that.

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 05:15 PM
Funny, because Kobe was by far the catalyst in the 2001 run during the majority of the playoffs and was a major reason they nearly swept the entire thing. Shaq was better in the finals, but Kobe was better during the Western Conference run where they faced their toughest competition by far. Any list that does not give Kobe credit for the 2001 playoff run is a joke to me. 2012 Lebron in a lockout season where he had no real competition and the refs had to bail him out against Boston is not anywhere near as impressive as going 15-1 in the playoffs against good competition. Lebron at number 2 is a joke and an obvious attempt by BSPN to boost ratings for the finals.

West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.

They give the Finals MVP award based on contribution in the Finals only, not throughout the playoffs, where Kobe was the obvious MVP.


now go ahead and tell me that Shaq didn't need Kobe and Kobe didn't need Shaq. They were equal easily.sorry, but that makes no sense. they faced 0 competition out west in 2001. at least the 76ers beat them once, & had a legit defensive master mind of a center in prime Mutombo. Shaquille still shot 5% better and grabbed 8 more boards per game(through the west playoffs). give me Shaq's 2001 western playoff run over Kobe's anyday. Shaquille had to deal with Tim Duncan & David Robinson. he took on far better defenders than Kobe did(SAS Antonio freaking Daniels & an old Terry Porter, horrible defenders) then capping it off with making defensive master Mutombo look like he was 11 years old

they were far from equal, Shaq was the man everyone knows it, even you

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 05:15 PM
Wrong. You obviously don't know anything about basketball history other than Lebron's highschool stats.

West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

:laugh:
i love exposing kobe fangirls.

if the lakers played a pathetic team, why did kobe play pathetic against this so called pathetic team that would have been eliminated in the first round of western conference?
I mean it is the NBA finals.. wouldnt that give anyone else a reason to show up? i guess showing up in one series means you are the sole reason for winning the whole title when you stink up the joint in the finals? i know youre embarrassed to post up kobe's nba finals, when he was kobricking the joint, but dont worry bro, i took time out of "following lebrons highschool stats" to remember kobes.

or should we call him kobrick?
Game 1- 15 points, 31.82% FG, 6 turnovers. nice start.
Game 2- 31 points, 47.83% FG, 2 turnovers. solid game, but 8-8 FT should we use the ref line like how you dish out to lebron?
Game 3- 32 points, 43.33% FG, 3 turnovers. Brickfest.
Game 4- 19 points, 46.15% FG, 4 turnovers. near trip dub, so good game.
Game 5- 26 points, 38.89% FG, 3 turnovers. brickfest.

Total- 24.6 points per game
7.8 rebounds per game
5.8 assists per game
41.51 field goal percentage

nice.
:laugh2:

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:16 PM
LMFAO a true gem.

Really???

So having the MVP and the DPOY is laugh worthy. 2012 OKC was a talented squad for sure and I would agree that from a talent stand point they were better than 2001 Philly, but your not taking the "Green Factor" into account and the choking that occurs with younger players. OKC had the talent to get the job done, but they were just so young. You have to account for that.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 05:17 PM
and if you look at kobe's 2000 finals performance, its even funnier.

:laugh:

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:18 PM
They were more experienced. You can't deny that. In the finals, experience can get you farther than raw talent for sure. I'll take an experienced vet with lesser talent any day.

Iverson was also the reigning MVP and he had Mutombo who was the DPOY. Can't deny that. Iverson was balling that year and was a more accomplished and experienced leader than Durant. Sure Overall OKC had more talent, but what good does that do you if your players choke under pressure like Harden and a few others did. Either way, San Antonio and Sacramento were better than the Thunder for sure.

raw talent sure got them past the spurs who btw swept the previous two rounds and were on an insane streak.

2-ONE-5
06-10-2013, 05:18 PM
So you don't agree that the 2001 Spurs and Kings were better teams than anything Lebron went up against in 2001. Because that is what this all comes down to.

Even Philly was comparable to the Thunder. More experienced and had the reigning MVP and DPOY on their squad. Thunder had none of the above and their supporting cast chocked in the finals for the most park especially Harden. Age is a huge factor in finals play. You have to admit that.

add in 6MOY too

Bruno
06-10-2013, 05:22 PM
and if you look at kobe's 2000 finals performance, its even funnier.

:laugh:

do you recall why his numbers from the 2000 are so deflated?

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:24 PM
Really???

So having the MVP and the DPOY is laugh worthy. 2012 OKC was a talented squad for sure and I would agree that from a talent stand point they were better than 2001 Philly, but your not taking the "Green Factor" into account and the choking that occurs with younger players. OKC had the talent to get the job done, but they were just so young. You have to account for that.

okc had runner up in DPOY and MVP, both of them had Legit shots at winning them. speaking about green factor, wasn't that iversons first time going that deep?

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 05:24 PM
do you recall why his numbers from the 2000 are so deflated?

because he was injured in game 2? yet he played well game 4 but sucked it up game 5?

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:25 PM
add in 6MOY too

add 6moy for the thunder to.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-10-2013, 05:25 PM
noone asked him to play bro. sorry. he stinked up the joint in 2000. theres really no two ways about it. i love watching kobe play and love his will to win, but it is what it is.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:26 PM
:laugh:
i love exposing kobe fangirls.

if the lakers played a pathetic team, why did kobe play pathetic against this so called pathetic team that would have been eliminated in the first round of western conference?
I mean it is the NBA finals.. wouldnt that give anyone else a reason to show up? i guess showing up in one series means you are the sole reason for winning the whole title when you stink up the joint in the finals? i know youre embarrassed to post up kobe's nba finals, when he was kobricking the joint, but dont worry bro, i took time out of "following lebrons highschool stats" to remember kobes.

or should we call him kobrick?
Game 1- 15 points, 31.82% FG, 6 turnovers. nice start.
Game 2- 31 points, 47.83% FG, 2 turnovers. solid game, but 8-8 FT should we use the ref line like how you dish out to lebron?
Game 3- 32 points, 43.33% FG, 3 turnovers. Brickfest.
Game 4- 19 points, 46.15% FG, 4 turnovers. near trip dub, so good game.
Game 5- 26 points, 38.89% FG, 3 turnovers. brickfest.

Total- 24.6 points per game
7.8 rebounds per game
5.8 assists per game
41.51 field goal percentage

nice.
:laugh2:

Exposed me???

How so?

I have seen you post and I have never been especially impressed. No offense.

All you did was re-post stats I had already provided with some corny explanation at the end. What were you even trying to prove? It would help you tremendously to be more concise with your thoughts so that you convey a general message. In addition, you didn't even address any of the points I had made. You went straight for your own agenda and then act like you won the Nobel Prize.

Sly Guy
06-10-2013, 05:26 PM
I'm curious to see where Dirk's 2011 title ranks in at?

I agree with the rest after reading the summaries. I also am curious to see if Lebron will have more games like he did in last years playoffs. If he gets a floater over the summer maybe we can see some even crazier stat lines.

One thing they don't factor in, is Lebron this year is effecting the game in ways that don't show up on the stat line so how do you work that in?

this would be my first question given how the rest of the list looks.

herewegocubbies
06-10-2013, 05:27 PM
He's the best, his blinders are by far some of the strongest I've seen on this board. You can never argue with stupid and that's why I sit back and laugh at most his posts, he is truly a gem on this board.

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 05:32 PM
and if you look at kobe's 2000 finals performance, its even funnier.

:laugh:it's hilarious because even Austin Croshire outplayed him in the 2000 finals

Bruno
06-10-2013, 05:36 PM
because he was injured in game 2? yet he played well game 4 but sucked it up game 5?

Kobe played 9 minutes in game two before leaving the game with the ankle injury. LAL was still able to pick up the victory without him due to Rice and Harper playing big along side Shaqs 40/24/4. he missed game three with the injury, the Lakers lost (Reggie Miller played big). he struggled with the injury from nine minutes into the first quarter of game two until the end of the series. His game winning performance in game four despite that injury was amazing, he was obviously hobbled by a major injury that caused him to miss a game. LA's two losses in the series came when Bryant was out, or putting up a poor performance (game 5). were you old enough to have watched this series live?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 05:41 PM
Because that is what this all comes down to.
Yeah I know, I just like seeing you admit the obvious. You have absolutely no clue as to the validity of the methodology, you have no alternative and no research.
You just know Bron doesn't belong, that seems to be all you ever know.

Just stop trying to hide that mantra behind a facade of intellectual analysis, we all know the rep you carry. If you just want your opinion out there, a simple, Bron has too much help, not enough heart/comp will suffice. Keep the objective measures out of your posts.


The rest of your post is too easy to trash. Come on man, we both know how you feel regarding MVP's, funny how those subjective barometers that you have trashed so often in the past, are now your main proponent for arguing against more objective/accurate measures (that you also trash yet use with an amateurs joy).

And no I dont have to admit anything in the face of such subjectivity.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:41 PM
okc had runner up in DPOY and MVP, both of them had Legit shots at winning them.

Close only counts in hand grenades and horse shoes.


speaking about green factor, wasn't that iversons first time going that deep?

Iverson in the 2001 finals: Age 26

Durant in the 2012 finals: Age 23

Average age of the 2001 76ers: 27.3

Average age of the 2012 Thunder: 26.1 including Derrick Fisher who was 37 and a shell of his former self.

Now lets do the average age of their starters who get the majority of the minutes:

Average age of 2001 76ers starting 5: 29.2

Average age of 2012 Thunder starting 5: 23.2

Also, Aaron Mckie was the sixth man of the year back in 2001. So not only did Philly have the reigning MVP, they also had the reigning DPOY and reigning sixth man of the year. How is that not comparable to OKC???

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:49 PM
Yeah I know, I just like seeing you admit the obvious. You have absolutely no clue as to the validity of the methodology, you have no alternative and no research.
You just know Bron doesn't belong, that seems to be all you ever know.

Just stop trying to hide that mantra behind a facade of intellectual analysis, we all know the rep you carry. If you just want your opinion out there, a simple, Bron has too much help, not enough heart/comp will suffice. Keep the objective measures out of your posts.


The rest of your post is too easy to trash. Come on man, we both know how you feel regarding MVP's, funny how those subjective barometers that you have trashed so often in the past, are no your main proponent for arguing against more objective measures (that you also trash yet use with an amateurs joy).

And no I dont have to admit anything in the face of such subjectivity.

Fact is, you can't prove me wrong. You can critique my methodology all you want, but at the end of the day you are not a qualified expert either. Somehow I really doubt that you agree with this ESPN list either especially Lebron being at number 2. Even if you all want to say that Kobe was Shaq's wingman and if anyone deserves the credit it's Shaq, thats fine, put Shaq at number one on that list because going 15-1 deserves to be number one. Putting what Lebron did last season in a lock out year with his stellar supporting cast at number 2 is a complete joke and you know it. That is the reason a lot of people can't stand Lebron...not because he is a dick or anything, just because of the amount he is over hyped. Man to man you can't tell me that Lebron isn't the most over hyped player in NBA history in terms of media recognition and marketing. Perhpas there were player who are also over rated in other ways, but all in all Lebron is the top when taking new age media and marketing into account. Being credited that "Chosen One" before he even accomplished anything alone makes him the most overrated NBA player I personally have ever witnessed.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 05:53 PM
I also think it's humorous how you all trash my expert opinions, yet when the so called ESPN experts falsely rank Lebron higher than he deserves, you all hypocritically respect their opinions all of the sudden.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 05:53 PM
Really???

So having the MVP and the DPOY is laugh worthy.
Contradictions are always hilarious watch what you do next:





2012 OKC was a talented squad for sure and I would agree that from a talent stand point they were better than 2001 Philly,
Heres a hint, if you dont find something to be true, DONT say it.

Most definitely dont question the people for laughing even tho you eventually agreed with the statement.


but your not taking the "Green Factor" into account and the choking that occurs with younger players. OKC had the talent to get the job done, but they were just so young. You have to account for that.
Cool story bro but I see no reason to believe you. Being young is why they were better than the Sixers. I mean, Philly was so beat up and depleted, and needed alot of help just reaching the Finals. They had very little chemistry and time together that I find your experience argument hilarious. Really think about it, you're talking about a team that would go like .500 after they traded for Mutombo, lost several players on route to the Finals and then in the season immediately afterwards cease to remain relevant. In other words, they were a descending core that had freefalled into the post season and struggled to beat out even the most pathetic of clubs. IIRC every series they partook in went the distance. They were far from the power the Thunder were/are.

bucketss
06-10-2013, 05:56 PM
Close only counts in hand grenades and horse shoes.

doesn't matter, as long as those guys are legit contenders for that award, if lebron missed a few games and durant won it, does it make him any better of a player?




Iverson in the 2001 finals: Age 26

Durant in the 2012 finals: Age 23

Average age of the 2001 76ers: 27.3

Average age of the 2012 Thunder: 26.1 including Derrick Fisher who was 37 and a shell of his former self.

Now lets do the average age of their starters who get the majority of the minutes:

Average age of 2001 76ers starting 5: 29.2

Average age of 2012 Thunder starting 5: 23.2

i thought green meant player was inexperienced at that stage(finals,) not age.


Also, Aaron Mckie was the sixth man of the year back in 2001. So not only did Philly have the reigning MVP, they also had the reigning DPOY and reigning sixth man of the year. How is that not comparable to OKC???

okc had, runner mvp, runner up dpoy and the sixth man of the year. its not comparable because let me see.. okc was far more talented?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 06:00 PM
Fact is, you can't prove me wrong.
Fact remains, you cant prove yourself right either. Its about the baseless claims you make. If you just want your opinion out there, just rinse and repeat your usual shtick, dont try hiding it behind some intellectual breakdown of objective measures, quite frankly that would be too interesting for you.



You can critique my methodology all you want, but at the end of the day you are not a qualified expert either.
Im not critiquing your methodology, Im critiquing the lack of a methodology. If you have one that can account for the variables you mentioned in any kind of scientific way, I will be more than impressed. It doesn't have to be an experts take, at this point I would take ANYTHING other than conjecture from you at this point.



Somehow I really doubt that you agree with this ESPN list either especially Lebron being at number 2.
Thats what you dont get, this isnt about LeBron for me. Its only about LeBron FOR YOU. Im too aware of the reputation you carry to entertain that debate anymore, at least not with the way you have confronted me here. If your down for a real debate then you already know Im game, but Im posting here in passing because Im not taking this seriously. Id much rather debate the logic that gos into your posts than the final expression of that logic.



I also think it's humorous how you all trash my expert opinions, yet when the so called ESPN experts falsely rank Lebron higher than he deserves, you all hypocritically respect their opinions all of the sudden.
Im not in that club brosephino. I dont live life by one sided rules. If someone says something fishy to me, I remember what that person said and deliver the contradictions personally.

Like can you make sense of one for me.

On 1 post you trash Philly to prop up Kobe, something about Philly lacking the frontcourt to match up with Shaq.

But on another post to bash Bron, you make Philly sound supremely talented and certainly on par with the 2nd best team in the league that year.

I dont see how those 2 thoughts can co-exists. So was Philly a comparably strong team or did Shaq face a weak team?

amos1er
06-10-2013, 06:32 PM
Kobe played 9 minutes in game two before leaving the game with the ankle injury. LAL was still able to pick up the victory without him due to Rice and Harper playing big along side Shaqs 40/24/4. he missed game three with the injury, the Lakers lost (Reggie Miller played big). he struggled with the injury from nine minutes into the first quarter of game two until the end of the series. His game winning performance in game four despite that injury was amazing, he was obviously hobbled by a major injury that caused him to miss a game. LA's two losses in the series came when Bryant was out, or putting up a poor performance (game 5). were you old enough to have watched this series live?

lol

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 06:37 PM
they got #1 correct at least. the fact Michael Jordan put up those kinda numbers against the Lakers, while guarding Magic Johnson 80% of the time is ridiculous

that finals is so iconic, Michael vs Magic (#1 vs #2 all time). Michael & Scottie vs Magic & Worthy

bucketss
06-10-2013, 06:42 PM
they got #1 correct at least. the fact Michael Jordan put up those kinda numbers against the Lakers, while guarding Magic Johnson 80% of the time is ridiculous

that finals is so iconic, Michael vs Magic (#1 vs #2 all time). Michael & Scottie vs Magic & Worthy

wait i thought it was pippen who locked down magic?

AI
06-10-2013, 06:48 PM
Wonder where Iverson would rank had he won in 2001.

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 06:48 PM
wait i thought it was pippen who locked down magic?nope, Jordan guarded him 80% of the time easily. just watch, it's on tape.

one game Jordan got in foul trouble Pippen took over, & did pretty good as well. but that's about it

R. Johnson#3
06-10-2013, 06:54 PM
Dirk in 11 isn't even close? What the hell???

amos1er
06-10-2013, 07:02 PM
they got #1 correct at least. the fact Michael Jordan put up those kinda numbers against the Lakers, while guarding Magic Johnson 80% of the time is ridiculous

that finals is so iconic, Michael vs Magic (#1 vs #2 all time). Michael & Scottie vs Magic & Worthy

Too bad Worthy got injured. One might argue that deserves an asterisks of some sort. One might even argue that had Worthy stayed healthy, the Lakers would have taken it.

3RDASYSTEM
06-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Funny, cause I don't see Kobe Bryant's name on there anywhere. Interesting...

and to think he is a top 10 best player of alltime right?

child please

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Too bad Worthy got injured. One might argue that deserves an asterisks of some sort. One might even argue that had Worthy stayed healthy, the Lakers would have taken it.he only missed 1 game, game 5, & Edlen Campbell put up like 21 points in his place, so he became Worthy for a night(he wasn't getttin playing time before that) in a really close game 5. Worthy led them in ppg in the finals, so his injury didn't slow him down scoring at all(until late in game 4 he was fine, something he did late in game 4 clearly made the injury much worse & kept him out of game 5). classic finals, should have gone 6 but Michael was just stupid great, & Paxon never missed

just wish people would give Jordan the credit he deserves for guarding Magic. espn has created a myth the Pippen did all the work, but that's so far from true it's almsot criminal. all people have to do is watch to see the truth. Jordan guarded him 80% easy. no way he was lettin Scottie check Magic too often, he wanted that job & took it

no asterisk at all, unless you wanna give one to the Lakers for 2009 avoiding the Celtics again cause Garnett missed the playoffs, or 2010 when Perkins went out for game 6 & 7 & the Celtics could no longer rebound & lost. at least Worthy was puttin up Worthy type numbers, & the 1 game he missed Elden Campbell put up his numbers for him. nobody replaced Perkins (or the loss of Garnett in 2009)

JerseyPalahniuk
06-10-2013, 07:24 PM
This discussion was supposed to be out this list. Thank you amos for yet again ruining an entire thread with your extreme Lebron hate and obsessive Kobe love.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2013, 08:03 PM
Funny, because Kobe was by far the catalyst in the 2001 run during the majority of the playoffs and was a major reason they nearly swept the entire thing. Shaq was better in the finals, but Kobe was better during the Western Conference run where they faced their toughest competition by far. Any list that does not give Kobe credit for the 2001 playoff run is a joke to me. 2012 Lebron in a lockout season where he had no real competition and the refs had to bail him out against Boston is not anywhere near as impressive as going 15-1 in the playoffs against good competition. Lebron at number 2 is a joke and an obvious attempt by BSPN to boost ratings for the finals.

West Conference playoffs (where Lakers faced their BY FAR the toughest competition):

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV
Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

The NBA finals where Lakers faced a pathetic team that would be eliminated in first round of West conference playoffs:

Kobe ( 5g): 24.6 PTS (.501 TS%), 7.8 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.4 STL, 1.4 BLK, 3.6 TOV
Shaq ( 5g): 33.0 PTS (.575 TS%), 15.8 REB, 4.8 AST, 0.4 STL, 3.4 BLK, 4.0 TOV

Yes, Shaq DOMINATED the Finals against non-existent front court of 76'ers, and Kobe took a step back letting Shaq dominate them.

They give the Finals MVP award based on contribution in the Finals only, not throughout the playoffs, where Kobe was the obvious MVP.


now go ahead and tell me that Shaq didn't need Kobe and Kobe didn't need Shaq. They were equal easily.

In case I haven't covered this before, which I know I have, I do not respect, nor seek your opinion. So replying to any of my posts is a waste of your key strokes.

If you don't get it after this post, never will.

IversonIsKrazy
06-10-2013, 08:07 PM
I've always thought Duncan's 03 title is the most impressive title run I've witnessed. (19 years old). But I thought LeBron's '12 run was a bit high

b@llhog24
06-10-2013, 08:29 PM
Contradictions are always hilarious watch what you do next:





Heres a hint, if you dont find something to be true, DONT say it.

Most definitely dont question the people for laughing even tho you eventually agreed with the statement.


Cool story bro but I see no reason to believe you. Being young is why they were better than the Sixers. I mean, Philly was so beat up and depleted, and needed alot of help just reaching the Finals. They had very little chemistry and time together that I find your experience argument hilarious. Really think about it, you're talking about a team that would go like .500 after they traded for Mutombo, lost several players on route to the Finals and then in the season immediately afterwards cease to remain relevant. In other words, they were a descending core that had freefalled into the post season and struggled to beat out even the most pathetic of clubs. IIRC every series they partook in went the distance. They were far from the power the Thunder were/are.


Fact remains, you cant prove yourself right either. Its about the baseless claims you make. If you just want your opinion out there, just rinse and repeat your usual shtick, dont try hiding it behind some intellectual breakdown of objective measures, quite frankly that would be too interesting for you.



Im not critiquing your methodology, Im critiquing the lack of a methodology. If you have one that can account for the variables you mentioned in any kind of scientific way, I will be more than impressed. It doesn't have to be an experts take, at this point I would take ANYTHING other than conjecture from you at this point.



Thats what you dont get, this isnt about LeBron for me. Its only about LeBron FOR YOU. Im too aware of the reputation you carry to entertain that debate anymore, at least not with the way you have confronted me here. If your down for a real debate then you already know Im game, but Im posting here in passing because Im not taking this seriously. Id much rather debate the logic that gos into your posts than the final expression of that logic.



Im not in that club brosephino. I dont live life by one sided rules. If someone says something fishy to me, I remember what that person said and deliver the contradictions personally.

Like can you make sense of one for me.

On 1 post you trash Philly to prop up Kobe, something about Philly lacking the frontcourt to match up with Shaq.

But on another post to bash Bron, you make Philly sound supremely talented and certainly on par with the 2nd best team in the league that year.

I dont see how those 2 thoughts can co-exists. So was Philly a comparably strong team or did Shaq face a weak team?


In case I haven't covered this before, which I know I have, I do not respect, nor seek your opinion. So replying to any of my posts is a waste of your key strokes.

If you don't get it after this post, never will.

Ownage! (http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/apply-cold-water-to-the-burned-area.jpeg)

amos1er
06-10-2013, 09:11 PM
Fact remains, you cant prove yourself right either. Its about the baseless claims you make. If you just want your opinion out there, just rinse and repeat your usual shtick, dont try hiding it behind some intellectual breakdown of objective measures, quite frankly that would be too interesting for you.

My opinions are backed by solid arguments. Why don't you tell me individually what you disagree with and why instead of making generalizations. I will list my "opinions" and why I have them and then why don't you tell me why you disagree.

Claim - Lebron's number 2 ranking is way too high the list the OP posted.

Reasoning - There were far more impressive playoff runs more worthy of mention. For instance, the Shaq/Kobe 2001 playoff run where they went 15-1 is way more impressive and dominating. Going 15-1 against 3/4 opponents who all had records above 50 games in the regular season is more impressive than Lebron going 9-7 mostly against teams with mediocre regular season records. Also, it was a lock out season and that does have an effect on the outcome. I'm sure I can name other players with more impressive playoff runs than Lebron had last season. Frankly, someone putting up stellar stats against weak to mediocre competition is not worthy to be mentioned amongst the greats.

So lets sum it up...



- 15-1 record > 9-7 record.

- 2001 Lakers faced opponents with better regular season records overall than did the 2012 Heat.

- 2001 Lakers beat the San Antonio Spurs which were better than any of the teams the Heat faced in the 2012 playoffs.

- Lock out season...nuff said



Im not critiquing your methodology, Im critiquing the lack of a methodology. If you have one that can account for the variables you mentioned in any kind of scientific way, I will be more than impressed. It doesn't have to be an experts take, at this point I would take ANYTHING other than conjecture from you at this point.

This is a sports forum, not a sports science expo. We are all considered amateurs here...yourself included. Why is it necessary for me to provide some sort of thesis to back my claims when no one on here does...yourself included. Who is really grading us on our arguments anyways? Everyone on here is bias anyways. It's not like we have a panel to grade who has the better argument. If you make a good point, I'll acknowledge it and I would hope you would do the same in return. Now I ask you again, do you honestly believe Lebron belongs number 2 on that list? And no I shouldn't have to come up with some complex algorithm on why my opinion is worthy enough to justify asking you that question in the first place. It's a simple yes or no. And yes there is such a thing as common sense, though you like to call it conjecture, and yes it can be used to justify ones opinion.


Thats what you dont get, this isnt about LeBron for me. Its only about LeBron FOR YOU. Im too aware of the reputation you carry to entertain that debate anymore, at least not with the way you have confronted me here. If your down for a real debate then you already know Im game, but Im posting here in passing because Im not taking this seriously. Id much rather debate the logic that gos into your posts than the final expression of that logic.

Fair enough. I'll start...

Lebron is way to high on that list. It's not justifiable to rank someone's playoff run that high who won their championship during lockout season. There are far more worthy candidates. For instance, either 2001 Shaq or Kobe were more impressive in that they were able to win with a better record against teams who had better regular season records in a more competitive conference.

That is my claim, now if you find anything wrong with that, feel free to challenge.


Im not in that club brosephino. I dont live life by one sided rules. If someone says something fishy to me, I remember what that person said and deliver the contradictions personally.

Sounds fair to me.


Like can you make sense of one for me. On 1 post you trash Philly to prop up Kobe, something about Philly lacking the frontcourt to match up with Shaq.But on another post to bash Bron, you make Philly sound supremely talented and certainly on par with the 2nd best team in the league that year. I dont see how those 2 thoughts can co-exists. So was Philly a comparably strong team or did Shaq face a weak team?


I get what you are saying and I am somewhat guilty of a contradiction from a technical standpoint. I may have trashed Philly a bit more than they deserved in order to prove a point. My point being that the Lakers faced harder opponents in the west than in the finals. I stand by my original assessment that San Antonio and Sacramento were better teams than Philly, though Philly was no slouch either. I would concede that OKC was the better team compared to Philly, but not by that much and that age is a huge factor to take in considering just how badly a 22 year old Harden choked on the big stage compared to how instrumental he was during the playoffs before hand. If you disagree with any of this, feel free to elaborate.

4milesperday
06-10-2013, 09:14 PM
I just checked on Dirk. He was number 50. Pretty shocking. Guys who didn't even make the finals were above him.

Without Jason Terry closing games for them, Miami would have won the series. Dirk was the default MVP but never dominated...

amos1er
06-10-2013, 09:19 PM
Ownage! (http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/apply-cold-water-to-the-burned-area.jpeg)

Co-Signage! (http://i51.tinypic.com/21mc8lg.jpg)

amos1er
06-10-2013, 09:20 PM
In case I haven't covered this before, which I know I have, I do not respect, nor seek your opinion. So replying to any of my posts is a waste of your key strokes.

If you don't get it after this post, never will.

Yet you take the time to tell me this??? lol

Just a little FYI from me to you...The ignore button works wonders.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-10-2013, 09:27 PM
Hyping up Duncan & LeBron... If it were Heat vs. Lakers, they'd replace Duncan with Kobe

Winner.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-10-2013, 09:32 PM
Yet you take the time to tell me this??? lol

Just a little FYI from me to you...The ignore button works wonders.

I never understood the ignore list. I like to hear everyone's knowledge of the game on this site. How else would i get a good laugh?

JordansBulls
06-10-2013, 09:38 PM
Too bad Worthy got injured. One might argue that deserves an asterisks of some sort. One might even argue that had Worthy stayed healthy, the Lakers would have taken it.

Worthy averaged 41 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.
Scott averaged 35 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.

Bulls were up 3-1 by that point. Not to mention when Worthy left the game in game 4 the Bulls were already up 15 points.
And Scott got straight locked up. Dude shot 28% FG with MJ on him.


Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg, on 48% FG in 41.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 5 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 28% FG in 35.0 mpg in the finals.


In the WCF

Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 38.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 60% FG in 37.7 mpg in the finals.



The difference is that Scott was on lock in the NBA Finals while he got off in the WCF. Worthy averaged virtually the same thing he did in the WCF and NBA Finals.


In round 1

Worthy averaged 22 ppg, 3 rpg, 5 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 42.3 mpg

Scott averaged 15 ppg, 2 rpg, 1 apg, 1 spg on 51% FG in 37.3 mpg

tredigs
06-10-2013, 09:41 PM
Rough day for Amos1.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 09:50 PM
This discussion was supposed to be out this list. Thank you amos for yet again ruining an entire thread with your extreme Lebron hate and obsessive Kobe love.

If you look at my first post, you will clearly see that I mentioned three disagreements I had with the list...

- 99 Duncan

- 06 Wade

- 12 lebron

Why can't you blame the Lebronnuthuggers for focusing on one of my three critiques. They could have easily brought up Duncan or Wade, but they chose to fixate on Lebron. It takes two to tango my friend. Can't put all the blame on me.

amos1er
06-10-2013, 10:01 PM
Worthy averaged 41 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.
Scott averaged 35 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.

Bulls were up 3-1 by that point. Not to mention when Worthy left the game in game 4 the Bulls were already up 15 points.
And Scott got straight locked up. Dude shot 28% FG with MJ on him.


Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg, on 48% FG in 41.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 5 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 28% FG in 35.0 mpg in the finals.


In the WCF

Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 38.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 60% FG in 37.7 mpg in the finals.



The difference is that Scott was on lock in the NBA Finals while he got off in the WCF. Worthy averaged virtually the same thing he did in the WCF and NBA Finals.


In round 1

Worthy averaged 22 ppg, 3 rpg, 5 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 42.3 mpg

Scott averaged 15 ppg, 2 rpg, 1 apg, 1 spg on 51% FG in 37.3 mpg

Oh my what can of worms did I open. Look, all I'm saying is that the outcome might have been different had Worthy not gotten injured. Not that the Lakers would have won. Lakers easily had enough time to make a comeback and tie the series up 2-2. Especially at home.

hidalgo
06-10-2013, 10:09 PM
Worthy averaged 41 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.
Scott averaged 35 mpg and played the first 4 games of the series.

Bulls were up 3-1 by that point. Not to mention when Worthy left the game in game 4 the Bulls were already up 15 points.
And Scott got straight locked up. Dude shot 28% FG with MJ on him.


Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg, on 48% FG in 41.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 5 ppg, 2 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 28% FG in 35.0 mpg in the finals.


In the WCF

Worthy averaged 19 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 38.0 mpg in the finals

Scott averaged 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 60% FG in 37.7 mpg in the finals.



The difference is that Scott was on lock in the NBA Finals while he got off in the WCF. Worthy averaged virtually the same thing he did in the WCF and NBA Finals.


In round 1

Worthy averaged 22 ppg, 3 rpg, 5 apg, 1 spg, on 46% FG in 42.3 mpg

Scott averaged 15 ppg, 2 rpg, 1 apg, 1 spg on 51% FG in 37.3 mpgweird thing was Byron Scott was guarded by Paxon(not MJ) & still had a nightmare series. Jordan was on Magic & Pippen was on Worthy. B Scott should have avg his usual 15 ppg, but he just had a horrible series, it's just one of those things that happen sometimes. when he hurt his shoulder in the last few secs of game 4 it was actually a good thing for LA in a way, because he was not playing well at all in the series.

that Lakers team had a nice deep roster & i think the number 2 ranked defense. great team. dream finals Michael & Scottie vs Magic & Worthy. some really close, great games in those finals. too bad Michael got ripped off of possibly seeing Magic in the finals again. i wish Magic never retired the first time

Trueblue2
06-12-2013, 12:19 AM
Shaq's 2001 playoff run* not kobe and shaq. why is it that everyone recognizes that it was shaq except kobe fans? im confused lol.. how blind do you have to be?

But Kobe also put up amazing numbers during those playoffs, I don't think it should be recognized as Kobe and Shaq's streak, but rather as Kobe's streak, and Shaq's streak.

It's possible for two people on the same team to have an amazing playoff run. I'd rank Shaq's higher obviously, but Kobe deserves recognition for how he played during that time too.