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JordansBulls
06-09-2013, 05:56 PM
http://blog.chron.com/ultimaterockets/2013/06/why-settle-for-one-rockets-going-after-howard-and-paul/



Dwight Howard will not be the only object of the Rockets’ free-agent affections, and the Los Angeles Lakers center has not been the only subject of their intensive preparations for next month’s sales pitches.

Howard has generated by far the most attention as a Rockets free-agent target, but the team plans a similar and simultaneous pursuit of Los Angeles Clippers guard Chris Paul, a person with knowledge of the Rockets’ thinking said. According to another individual familiar with the team’s plans, “they are targets No. 1 and 1A.”

The difference is there have been far more indications Howard, a 6-11 center, will be receptive to the Rockets’ recruiting efforts. Although it is too early to know if Paul, a 6-0 guard, is disinterested or keeping his thoughts private, the Rockets have gone through detailed preparations to chase both.

Rockets players James Harden and Chandler Parsons have spoken with Howard about the Rockets and playing in Houston. Harden is even closer to Paul from their time together on the USA Basketball senior national team.

But Howard’s interest in the Rockets also could point to the difficulty in landing Paul.

According to an individual with knowledge of Howard’s thinking, Howard has been interested in playing for Rockets coach Kevin McHale and assistant coach J.B. Bickerstaff, citing among other things McHale’s style and playing history as a Hall of Famer.

With the Clippers’ coaching change, they likely also will be able to provide a coaching staff that would help entice Paul to stay in L.A.

Howard, 27, also has been open to signing a four-year contract, rather than the five-year deal the Lakers could offer, according to an individual with knowledge of his thinking, so he could time his return to free agency to coincide with the next NBA national television contracts and potentially a new collective bargaining agreement.

The Rockets would have work to do to create enough salary-cap room – the first season of Howard’s contract could be worth as much as $20.5 million; Paul’s could start at $18.7 million. But they have little concern that they would be able to offer a max contract.

Trading Thomas Robinson, a 6-10 forward, is considered the most likely means to get enough cap room, but according to a person with knowledge of their plans, “there are about 20 other ways.”

Potential value

But moving Robinson, 22, remains the most likely means to create roster room, a consideration when general manager Daryl Morey made the trade-deadline move believing Robinson would be easier to deal than Patrick Patterson.

The Rockets prefer to have to trade one young prospect rather than two. Robinson is set to occupy twice as much salary-cap room as any two of last season’s other rookies. He also is expected to bring more in a trade.

But the Rockets hope to wait to see if they need the cap room before making that kind of move because if they cannot land a major free agent they would want to keep Robinson for his potential. There are 16 teams with the cap room, trade exception or sufficient non-guaranteed contracts to trade for Robinson or equivalent contracts without sending the Rockets back any cap-occupying contracts.

But several teams have indicated they are likely to be more open to a deal prior to the June 27 draft, especially if involving Robinson; the Rockets would prefer to make a move if necessary during free agency in July.

amos1er
06-09-2013, 05:57 PM
How the **** is that even possible.

This just in...Lakers going after Durant and Love. lol

These guys will write about anything no matter how improbable.

TeamSeattle
06-09-2013, 05:59 PM
I heard it was one OR the other not both of them. The second acquisition would have to be a sign and trade to work out but I don't see it happening for two players of this caliber.

Clippersfan86
06-09-2013, 06:00 PM
Love how people actually believe this crap. Besides people don't seem to read these reports before talking about them. They aren't saying they will sign both but rather that they will cast a wider net and pursue both hard. Which isn't news at all and they are going to strike out and fail for both most likely, or at the very least CP3. Howard supposedly loves the idea of Houston but CP3 is happy right where he's at and don't see him leaving for a place like Houston when he wanted NY/LA to begin with.

Hawkeye15
06-09-2013, 07:08 PM
One would have to be a SnT. Good luck. They are most likely going for Dwight OR Paul, to pair with Harden.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 07:10 PM
I heard they will explore getting LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Love, and every other player too. Doesn't mean anything.

Utd7
06-09-2013, 07:10 PM
Cap space? Seems unlikely to me.

J4KOP99
06-09-2013, 07:10 PM
what a source

LeperMessiah
06-09-2013, 07:11 PM
Houston ain't slowing down.

nycericanguy
06-09-2013, 07:15 PM
One would have to be a SnT. Good luck. They are most likely going for Dwight OR Paul, to pair with Harden.

Well we know they are trading Robinson and that should be no problem.

I wonder if they could trade Asik to a team like CLE for a future 1st? Asik is young enough that young, lottery teams would be interested.

Or a S&T with LAC of Lin & Robinson? 2 decent young pieces for LAC.

TestedWest
06-09-2013, 07:17 PM
So are the Hawks and Mavericks lol

MrfadeawayJB
06-09-2013, 07:19 PM
this couldn't even happen on 2K13 with the force trade option on lol

Clippersfan86
06-09-2013, 07:22 PM
Well we know they are trading Robinson and that should be no problem.

I wonder if they could trade Asik to a team like CLE for a future 1st? Asik is young enough that young, lottery teams would be interested.

Or a S&T with LAC of Lin & Robinson? 2 decent young pieces for LAC.

So the Clippers take an unproven rookie to back up their best player? IF it indeed came down to sign and trade.. Houston better give us Parsons+Asik for CP3.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 07:25 PM
So the Clippers take an unproven rookie to back up their best player? IF it indeed came down to sign and trade.. Houston better give us Parsons+Asik for CP3.

lol if you thinking you are getting that good of a return on a sign and trade

nycericanguy
06-09-2013, 07:28 PM
So the Clippers take an unproven rookie to back up their best player? IF it indeed came down to sign and trade.. Houston better give us Parsons+Asik for CP3.

Neither Lin or Rob are rookies.

I'm not a HOU or LAC fan, but there's no way LA would get Parsons in such a deal. Asik... maybe if HOU was sure Howard was signing.

A S&T when your star player is leaving is rarely an equal value trade... it's usually a "well at least we're getting something trade".

Clippersfan86
06-09-2013, 07:32 PM
Neither Lin or Rob are rookies.

I'm not a HOU or LAC fan, but there's no way LA would get Parsons in such a deal. Asik... maybe if HOU was sure Howard was signing.

A S&T when your star player is leaving is rarely an equal value trade... it's usually a "well at least we're getting something trade".

Asik+another decent piece. Didn't say it had to be equal and Parsons+Asik STILL isn't equal value wise. Considering Parsons is set to get a huge pay raise and Asik has a poison pill contract.

Clippersfan86
06-09-2013, 07:32 PM
lol if you thinking you are getting that good of a return on a sign and trade

Good thing it won't come to that because CP3's re-signing to spend the next 5 years at least with Griffin and co.

RLundi
06-09-2013, 07:34 PM
Good thing it won't come to that because CP3's re-signing to spend the next 5 years at least with Griffin and co.

You have to consider at least the possibility though right?

nycericanguy
06-09-2013, 07:35 PM
Asik+another decent piece. Didn't say it had to be equal and Parsons+Asik STILL isn't equal value wise. Considering Parsons is set to get a huge pay raise and Asik has a poison pill contract.

Asik's deal is $8.3m per... it's only a "poison" contract to the team they were taking him away from... CHI.

If Howard is signing sure HOU probably offers him... but if not, I can't see LAC getting more than a deal centered around Lin.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 07:42 PM
Good thing it won't come to that because CP3's re-signing to spend the next 5 years at least with Griffin and co.

Oh, please link me to that contract please. Oh, wait, it's not real? Wishful thinking doesn't mean much does it. You addressed the idea of a sign and trade without understanding that the signing team rarely gets a good return. And never would you get a lopsided deal like Asik and Parsons.

GSRaider
06-09-2013, 07:46 PM
Warriors have trade exceptions that equal in value (a little more in value) to Robinsons contract. The Warriors and Rockets should get on the phone and deal.

Robinson and the Warriors are a great fit. Robinson has the ability and work ethic to be a solid player/full time starter and I think Mark Jackson would be the ideal coach to help Robinson realize his potential.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 07:53 PM
Why would Houston get rid of Robinson again? Guy is going to be amazing. Him and Howard would be a huge mismatch to anyone. Him Howard and Asik would be as scary as Gasol, Odom and Bynum. Couple that with a top 5 SG in Harden and a 3 point sniper like Parsons and you are on your way to a contender.

Iron24th
06-09-2013, 07:57 PM
Yeah houston rockets can do what they want, don't care about salary cap lol

Media are so stupid...

sep11ie
06-09-2013, 08:03 PM
Why would Houston get rid of Robinson again? Guy is going to be amazing. Him and Howard would be a huge mismatch to anyone. Him Howard and Asik would be as scary as Gasol, Odom and Bynum. Couple that with a top 5 SG in Harden and a 3 point sniper like Parsons and you are on your way to a contender.

Great point, but I think we have to trade TRob to free up space. I think the fo is too high on Beverley and Jones to risk losing them.

bholly
06-09-2013, 08:32 PM
I don't think it's that implausible that they cut the salary to sign them both, if Dwight+CP3 wanted to go there.
Dwight's max plus CP3's max plus Harden + 9 roster size holds = $57,261,979, which is under the cap. They could even keep Parsons, Smith, Beverly and still be under the projected $58.5m cap. Or Parsons and either Motiejunas or Jones if the cap goes a few hundred thousand above that.

I don't think it's that hard to move the rest - some have real value, and the few that don't could be packaged. Certainly not as impossible are many are making it sound like.


If they couldn't clear the room, I think signing CP3 and S+Ting Dwight is more likely than the other way around. CP3 just has no leverage to force a S+T once Houston use their cap room - there's nowhere he can credibly say he'll bolt to, so when he asks for an S+T the Clippers will just refuse knowing he'll eventually give up and re-sign with them - he def isn't going to Atlanta or anywhere by himself just to make a point. Dallas maybe the most likely, but doesn't seem like him to take that sort of step backwards.
Dwight, on the other hand, has a bit of leverage - his time in LA didn't go as well as CP3, so he might genuinely want to move, especially with the whole Atlanta thing and maybe some past Dallas interest, plus the Lakers know he's a bit unpredictable anyway. On top of that, they should be more interested in the S+T package (Lin, Asik, some youth) than LAC, and might even be better off with it than keeping Dwight. Overall, they should be much more susceptible to "S+T me or I'll walk" than the Clipps would with CP3.

mrblisterdundee
06-09-2013, 08:33 PM
I think Houston's better off with two stars and a balanced, deep team, a la San Antonio. They've got their top dog in James Harden. Focus on getting Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, and then focus on filling out the team.

effen5
06-09-2013, 08:39 PM
Trade for Paul...**** Howard.

Kashmir13579
06-09-2013, 08:43 PM
Unite Chris Paul and Linsanity!

jam
06-10-2013, 05:37 AM
Daryl Morey is a boss.

It looks like Lin could become a journeyman role player. Wouldn't they have to trade him as well as Asik to get under the cap if they acquire both Howard and Paul?

jam
06-10-2013, 05:42 AM
Ridiculous. No same GM or owner would turn down the opportunity to sign Harden, Howard and Paul assuming the cap space was available.

Look how badly OKC has suffered with Harden's departure.

Harden would have to learn to play off the ball, which is ironic, since it's the same role he forced Lin into this past season. However, Harden was a fantastic fit in OKC as the third option, and helped his team get to the finals.

There is no doubt that Harden, Howard and Paul (sounds like a damn law firm) could very well equal or exceed the achievements of a younger, less experienced OKC team when they had their 'big three.'

Honestly, I would love to see it.


I think Houston's better off with two stars and a balanced, deep team, a la San Antonio. They've got their top dog in James Harden. Focus on getting Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, and then focus on filling out the team.

JordansBulls
06-10-2013, 07:12 AM
I'm sure they would have to trade Asik and Lin for this to happen.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 08:26 AM
How the **** is that even possible.

This just in...Lakers going after Durant and Love. lol

These guys will write about anything no matter how improbable.

I enjoy how you would like facts to back up your argument as to how this is possible, while you present none yourself.

kylem4711
06-10-2013, 11:35 AM
dumb thread. of course they will "go after" him. doesn't mena anything will happen.

FYL_McVeezy
06-10-2013, 11:49 AM
I honestly don't think Paul is interested in Houston....Looks like Paul wants to be in a large market (NY/LA) and will stay put in Lob City...that's my best guess....

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 11:57 AM
Asik's deal is $8.3m per... it's only a "poison" contract to the team they were taking him away from... CHI.

If Howard is signing sure HOU probably offers him... but if not, I can't see LAC getting more than a deal centered around Lin.

Did you even follow the signings of him and Lin? The final years of the deal are 15 million, not 8.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 11:59 AM
Oh, please link me to that contract please. Oh, wait, it's not real? Wishful thinking doesn't mean much does it. You addressed the idea of a sign and trade without understanding that the signing team rarely gets a good return. And never would you get a lopsided deal like Asik and Parsons.

You think Asik+Parsons for CP3 is lopsided haha? Two non all stars (one borderline) for a top 4 player in his prime? No better situation exists for CP3. Griffin has insane upside and works harder than just about anybody in the game. The Clippers situation is better for CP3 when you factor in how much input he's had with this organization, the coach he's going to have say in hiring, the big city he wanted, the endorsements etc. Not saying Houston sucks but unless they were in a TERRIBLE situation al a Dwight.. NOBODY is leaving an LA/NY team to run to the Rockets, it's wishful thinking on YOUR end, not mine.

CP3 also bought a 9 million dollar home and his wife and kids LOVE LA. Not to mention an extra 5th year of security for those shaky knees. He's signing and every single "insider", analyst and "source" has said the same. In fact last week one source close to CP3 said there is ZERO chance CP3 gives up his situation now.

ramsizzle
06-10-2013, 12:15 PM
Did you even follow the signings of him and Lin? The final years of the deal are 15 million, not 8.

Those were poison pill deals...as far as you're concerned they're 3/25 or 8.3 million dollar deals. the 15 million in the final year was only if their respective teams resigned them.

rockets-fan
06-10-2013, 12:28 PM
You think Asik+Parsons for CP3 is lopsided haha? Two non all stars (one borderline) for a top 4 player in his prime? No better situation exists for CP3. Griffin has insane upside and works harder than just about anybody in the game. The Clippers situation is better for CP3 when you factor in how much input he's had with this organization, the coach he's going to have say in hiring, the big city he wanted, the endorsements etc. Not saying Houston sucks but unless they were in a TERRIBLE situation al a Dwight.. NOBODY is leaving an LA/NY team to run to the Rockets, it's wishful thinking on YOUR end, not mine.

CP3 also bought a 9 million dollar home and his wife and kids LOVE LA. Not to mention an extra 5th year of security for those shaky knees. He's signing and every single "insider", analyst and "source" has said the same. In fact last week one source close to CP3 said there is ZERO chance CP3 gives up his situation now.

I highly doubt that Paul would leave LA for anywhere but NY but come on he has to want to win a chip at some point, wouldn't you leave if it meant winning or being in a better place to contend? Chances or slim to none that he leaves but would it really surprise you? LA is not that awesome IMO, not compared to winning a championship at least. Give me $85 million and a championship (or a very good chance at it) over LA lifestyle anyway...

heyman321
06-10-2013, 12:31 PM
Did you even follow the signings of him and Lin? The final years of the deal are 15 million, not 8.

No, that's only if their respective teams had re-signed them.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 12:36 PM
I highly doubt that Paul would leave LA for anywhere but NY but come on he has to want to win a chip at some point, wouldn't you leave if it meant winning or being in a better place to contend? Chances or slim to none that he leaves but would it really surprise you? LA is not that awesome IMO, not compared to winning a championship at least. Give me $85 million and a championship (or a very good chance at it) over LA lifestyle anyway...

If we were talking about going to the Heat or Thunder sure that would apply but Houston was a 7 seed, there are no guarantees with anything when it comes to winning with Rockets vs Clippers. I think Blake is already the better ALL AROUND player than Harden and going forward has more upside to dominate the game more, although right now Harden would rank a few spots higher on player rankings. Largely due to how big of a part he is in Houston. I'd take Blake's 22.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg season over Harden's 26/5/5 any day. Blake's defense has also surpassed Harden by quite a bit already. I'm not sure what Harden's work ethic is... but Blake's has been called the best or near the best in the league by at least 20 players.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 12:37 PM
It will be interesting to see how things play out in both parts of LA and in Houston. If Dwight signs early with Houston and they only have to give up Robinson to make that deal and then if a deal is in place to ship Asik and Lin for Paul of course CP3 would have to consider coming to Houston.

futureman
06-10-2013, 12:41 PM
I'm not convinced that Houston will be able to trade Jermey Lin. He isn't worth the 15 million that he will be paid in the last year of his contract. They will have to trade him if they want to get CP3.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 12:42 PM
Difference between CP3 and Dwight that people seem to be ignoring is that CP3 has always sought the big lights, the endorsements. Dwight on the other hand is TERRIFIED of the pressure and the spotlight it seems. A great basketball city like Houston that's a lot more low key than LA would appeal to him FAR more than it would to CP3.

Stinkyoutsider
06-10-2013, 12:42 PM
Houston wants to make sure they can finally get a superstar player. Not much of a possibility to get both but they're in position to get one...

Rockets trying to get fat with talent. Morey better get himself some coffee because it's going to take him quite a while to figure out all the moves to make.

naps
06-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Love how people actually believe this crap. Besides people don't seem to read these reports before talking about them. They aren't saying they will sign both but rather that they will cast a wider net and pursue both hard. Which isn't news at all and they are going to strike out and fail for both most likely, or at the very least CP3. Howard supposedly loves the idea of Houston but CP3 is happy right where he's at and don't see him leaving for a place like Houston when he wanted NY/LA to begin with.

I love how you act like you are sitting within CP3's head. Everytime there is a rumor about CP3 you dismiss it as if you are CP3 himself.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 12:49 PM
I love how you act like you are sitting within CP3's head. Everytime there is a rumor about CP3 you dismiss it as if you are CP3 himself.

It's because it's very unrealistic. Analysts, teammates, opposing players, "sources", coaches all are extremely confident he's staying. Dwight on the other hand never had a moment where he was happy this year and called his year a "Nightmare". Dwight's also not one for the big spot lights, the pressure and the hype apparently and has already shown he's about as loyal as a prostitute. Maybe it's not me being a homer and just understanding how basketball works. BTW I see all the videos and pictures CP3 posts of him and his family LOVING LA life. CP3 bought a 9 million dollar mansion, I don't even think Dwight bought a house.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm not convinced that Houston will be able to trade Jermey Lin. He isn't worth the 15 million that he will be paid in the last year of his contract. They will have to trade him if they want to get CP3.

Nobody cares how much he's taking home, owners and GMs are looking at the $8.6 they'd have on the books for him not the $15 he'd receive.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Nobody cares how much he's taking home, owners and GMs are looking at the $8.6 they'd have on the books for him not the $15 he'd receive.

WTF? You don't think owners care about the FUTURE or backloaded deals? Future finances are arguably MORE important to GM's than the current salary. You bet your *** teams care that all the sudden you're paying a role player 15 mill and going deep into the death tax.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 01:31 PM
WTF? You don't think owners care about the FUTURE or backloaded deals? Future finances are arguably MORE important to GM's than the current salary. You bet your *** teams care that all the sudden you're paying a role player 15 mill and going deep into the death tax.

You missed his point. And your rebuttal was non-factual.

People have corrected you on the terms of the "poison pill contract" before, I wont waste my time.

PS What did you think of JVG trashing the idea of momentum being carried into different games? Lots of coaches agree, would you rather not want those coaches? LOL

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 01:41 PM
You missed his point. And your rebuttal was non-factual.

People have corrected you on the terms of the "poison pill contract" before, I wont waste my time.

PS What did you think of JVG trashing the idea of momentum being carried into different games? Lots of coaches agree, would you rather not want those coaches? LOL

What is there to correct? I'm 100 percent versed on how contracts in the NBA work, at least with the basics. I understand what backloaded deals are. I never tried to say they affect current cap but was simply speaking about teams being hesitant to take on those kind of deals (exactly why NY and Chicago didn't match Asik and Lin). He flat out said "teams don't care about what you'll get paid next year" which is beyond false. GM's are constantly looking ahead to the cap future and look at it more so than the present most of the time. I don't remember us talking about momentum being carried game to game, although I think it absolutely CAN carry over.

Sounds like you just are having one of your PMS moments and want to pick a bone with somebody. Not interested.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 01:53 PM
What is there to correct?
You ignored these .....

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?822323-Rockets-going-after-Dwight-Howard-AND-Chris-Paul&p=26405467#post26405467

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?822323-Rockets-going-after-Dwight-Howard-AND-Chris-Paul&p=26405546#post26405546




I'm 100 percent versed on how contracts in the NBA work, at least with the basics.
I dont pretend to know the CBA 100%, it seems plenty of people have disagreed with you. I think thats enough to call your opinion into question.


(exactly why NY and Chicago didn't match Asik and Lin). He flat out said "teams don't care about what you'll get paid next year" which is beyond false.
Thats not what he said at all. If you are going to use QUOTATIONS, shouldnt you actually quote the guy? He was referring to what Lin would take home vs what teams will actually be giving him.

The implication being nobody cares if Lin is atking home 15 M, because the team is (allegedly) on the hook for only 9. THAT was his point. Whether its true or not, I dont know, I do believe the cap number isnt 15 for the team hes with but I do believe thats what he gets paid.


I don't remember us talking about momentum being carried game to game, although I think it absolutely CAN carry over.

LMFAO. So Im guessing you dont want a coach that doesn't believe in that mystical mumbo jumbo crap?

Lemme ask you tho. How do you KNOW when it has carried over?



Sounds like you just are having one of your PMS moments and want to pick a bone with somebody. Not interested.
LMFAO. Coming from you Im not surprised you feel this way. Lemme know when youre interested in responding to the multiple posts Ive shown you. Or are they on their rag too?


You should make that your new goto slogan blakefan, dont disagree with me, you're just PMSing.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 02:01 PM
I didn't intentionally ignore that post, I simply missed it. I was under the understanding that Lin was offered that "poison pill" contract" and NY failed to match it. Didn't know they could restructure it away from 15 million in 3rd year and if they indeed can that's bogus. I was quoting Trey anyways on the post you called me out on, not the other guys which I obviously didn't see.

Why would I not want a coach just because they don't agree with all of my opinions lol? A good coach is a good coach. I'd be ecstatic if we got JVG even if he did value momentum less than me :confused:. I didn't say I'm a gap guru which is why I made sure to mention "at least with basics". I understand frontloading vs backloading etc. I understand player/team options. As for identifying momentum it's an intangible because it can't really be quantified. I have no way of PROVING it, you can just feel it. When the Grizzlies won game 3... I just could tell a HUGE shift in the effort, energy, focus on their team and they went on to destroy us in 4 straight. It's not guaranteed to carry over game to game but it's not farfetched to say it CAN. Both the Spurs and Heat are title tested, veteran teams so I think they are far more likely to avoid it.


Anyways I do apologize to Heyman and Ramsizzle for missing their posts and being incorrect.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:09 PM
Didn't know they could restructure .......
So much for being 100% versed in basic CBA principles. LMFAO, NOW do you understand why nobody takes your hubris seriously?


I was quoting Trey anyways on the post you called me out on, not the other guys which I obviously didn't see.
Dont see why that matters, they were all posting KNOWING the information you just admitted to not knowing.
Just wanted to help you notice the posts that educated you. Hopefully you've learned a lesson here.


Why would I not want a coach just because they don't agree with all of my opinions lol? A good coach is a good coach. I'd be ecstatic if we got JVG even if he did value momentum less than me :confused:.
Thank god. I didn't know how far your hubris went.



I didn't say I'm a gap guru which is why I made sure to mention "at least with basics"
No offense, but this was pretty basic but if it was something you considered more complex, then maybe you should drop the know it all attitude? Just a tad?


. I understand frontloading vs backloading etc. I understand player/team options.
Yea, you understand what 2K makes available. Thats why you should stop yourself from using terms like "poison pill contract" with 100% conviction.


Anyways I do apologize to Heyman and Ramsizzle for missing their posts and being incorrect.

PMSing??

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 02:16 PM
I don't see how a new CBA exploitation is basic knowledge. It doesn't make any logical sense at all to me that teams can even do that and it seems unethical. What attitude did I have with the two guys you showed me that I didn't even see? As for Tr3y... I said WTF why wouldn't they care about financial flexibility going forward, which isn't attitude towards him, just surprised somebody was saying it. Which indeed if he did have a 15 million a year 3rd year what I said would have been correct.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:36 PM
I don't see how a new CBA exploitation is basic knowledge. It doesn't make any logical sense at all to me that teams can even do that and it seems unethical.
So was your initial assumption that something referred to as a "poison pill" was suppose to be 100% ethical? To each his own I guess, but I remember hearing about this the day those deals were signed. Im guessing you missed that, which is fine, all Im saying is to drop the know it all attitude. You are CLEARLY the kind of guy who talks out of his ***, that you dont find something this simplistic as basic is yet another reason to drop the tone. At least when it comes to the CBA, cuz the way you're describing it, admitting to knowing basic CBA is like admitting to being able to count to 10. Do you really need to tell us you can count to 10?

What Im wondering is, why even talk about technical terms like the poison pill contract when you yourself have NO CLUE whats going on?

Let this be a new beginning for you, dont speak with 100% conviction unless you at least know 10% of the topic at hand. Thats a fairly low number but it would represent a great improvement from the current standard of (zero).



What attitude did I have with the two guys you showed me that I didn't even see?
Is that a trick question? If you didn't see them, how can you display any emotion towards them?


As for Tr3y... I said WTF why wouldn't they care about financial flexibility going forward, which isn't attitude towards him, just surprised somebody was saying it. Which indeed if he did have a 15 million a year 3rd year what I said would have been correct.
Yea and when I informed you of the context you were missing out on, your response was to say Im PMSing. Instead of thinking rationally, you boasted about your intelligence on a topic you should have known to stay away from.

And for the record, saying WTF is essentially displaying an attitude towards their opinion. An opinion he was right about, and you were CLEARLY ignorant to.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:39 PM
Hint:
WTF should be reserved for WTF worthy statements.
Complaints of PMS should be left for asinine/offensive statements.
I understand basic CBA should not = I understand poison pill contracts.

Have er nice day

3RDASYSTEM
06-10-2013, 02:58 PM
Love how people actually believe this crap. Besides people don't seem to read these reports before talking about them. They aren't saying they will sign both but rather that they will cast a wider net and pursue both hard. Which isn't news at all and they are going to strike out and fail for both most likely, or at the very least CP3. Howard supposedly loves the idea of Houston but CP3 is happy right where he's at and don't see him leaving for a place like Houston when he wanted NY/LA to begin with.

So now HOWARD loves the idea but CP3 is happy right where he is but I could have sworn before HOWARD opted back in with ORL his heart and soul was set on BKN right? wasn't CP3 supposed to be a LAKER? so why would he be happy playing for the JV NBA team in LA when he can come to TX and make his mark



so you just espn'ed us by saying CP3 is happy where he is and doesn't leave big market LA for big market TX when he wanted big market NYC to begin with, but someone HOWARD has changed and wants big market TX instead of what he wanted in the beginning in big market BKN?

so would you love how we just believed your crap or not?


there is no diff. between LA or TX but media-fanatical poppycock, they all have multiple teams in the major pro sports field,im sure you could google your way to that info if need be

I've talked with CLIPPS players who said they want to move to HOUSTON out of all the cities with bad fine ladies and real estate for the low and other things, HOUSTON is in the mix for both CP3 and HOWARD, not just 1 of'em

MOREY will make his mark with a splash this summer, HARDEN says so

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 03:01 PM
Me saying I understand basic cap at least= boasting about intelligence now? Now that's a reach if I've ever heard one. The PMS comment was the fact that even if I was wrong (I was) you went on a rant calling me out like it was a personal issue (your MO). Not everything is personal buddy, especially if I'm not talking with you. Like I've told Kyle before.. I understand you don't like me, but no need to pick random ***** fits in threads when I'm not even addressing you.

I understood a fair amount of the Poison Pill contract with the one exception of the fact that the team offering the initial contract that doesn't get matched, gets to have that money spread evenly over 3 years. So maybe I understood half of it and was misinformed but for somebody who constantly lectures on assumptions you're making an *** out of yourself by saying I knew ZERO about it. I'll speak on whatever I feel I know and if somebody is kind enough to correct me... I'll accept it if true and apologize for my misinformation, simple as that. I'm not going to stop giving opinions because I'm not always right SMH. I spoke with conviction because I was reading his post wrong, not because I was trying to act "intelligent".

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 03:04 PM
So now HOWARD loves the idea but CP3 is happy right where he is but I could have sworn before HOWARD opted back in with ORL his heart and soul was set on BKN right? wasn't CP3 supposed to be a LAKER? so why would he be happy playing for the JV NBA team in LA when he can come to TX and make his mark



so you just espn'ed us by saying CP3 is happy where he is and doesn't leave big market LA for big market TX when he wanted big market NYC to begin with, but someone HOWARD has changed and wants big market TX instead of what he wanted in the beginning in big market BKN?

so would you love how we just believed your crap or not?


there is no diff. between LA or TX but media-fanatical poppycock, they all have multiple teams in the major pro sports field,im sure you could google your way to that info if need be

I've talked with CLIPPS players who said they want to move to HOUSTON out of all the cities with bad fine ladies and real estate for the low and other things, HOUSTON is in the mix for both CP3 and HOWARD, not just 1 of'em

MOREY will make his mark with a splash this summer, HARDEN says so

Wanna bet on it? CP3 leaves the Clippers and I ban bet myself. Anybody want in on this step up. I've offered it enough times. Whoever takes the bet first does the same if they lose.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 03:31 PM
Is he PMSing?

NYJ - NYY
06-10-2013, 03:57 PM
chronz has completely and utterly sonned the **** out of clippers faan

Chronz
06-10-2013, 03:59 PM
Me saying I understand basic cap at least= boasting about intelligence now? Now that's a reach if I've ever heard one.
Only if you dont understand the English language. Which I wouldn't put past you. Yes, saying you understand something with 100% certainty is you boasting about this understanding. You were attempting to defend your fallible stance by explaining that you know basic things. Which even if I agreed with you, if that truly is the case then you're ignoring the contradiction that basic and poison pill should not go together. Either way you were utterly clueless.




The PMS comment was the fact that even if I was wrong (I was) you went on a rant calling me out like it was a personal issue (your MO).
False. This was the post.


You missed his point. And your rebuttal was non-factual.

People have corrected you on the terms of the "poison pill contract" before, I wont waste my time.

PS What did you think of JVG trashing the idea of momentum being carried into different games? Lots of coaches agree, would you rather not want those coaches? LOL

It was literally 2 lines of text and 1 line of questioning. Exactly ZERO ranting, raving, insulting.

Meanwhile you respond to a VALID post with PMS... LMFAO if anyone has an MO its you.



Not everything is personal buddy, especially if I'm not talking with you. Like I've told Kyle before.. I understand you don't like me, but no need to pick random ***** fits in threads when I'm not even addressing you.
Cool story bro but there was nothing random about this. And you dont have to address me, I noticed clear as day that you werent addressing alot of posts, its why I pointed you towards the light. I tried to get the argument on track. Instead you PMS'd


I understood a fair amount of the Poison Pill contract with the one exception of the fact that the team offering the initial contract that doesn't get matched, gets to have that money spread evenly over 3 years. So maybe I understood half of it and was misinformed but for somebody who constantly lectures on assumptions you're making an *** out of yourself by saying I knew ZERO about it.
LOL so what would be the correct% for you to start talking about something you clearly know so little of?



I'll speak on whatever I feel I know and if somebody is kind enough to correct me... I'll accept it if true and apologize for my misinformation, simple as that.
That would be a marked improvement on the PMS comment. If you had just said, "what is there to correct?", and left out the derogatory remark, this whole thing could have gone alot smoother. I pointed you towards the answer, you took that as a threat. Bad response, those are the kind of responses that get you into trouble.


I'm not going to stop giving opinions because I'm not always right SMH. I spoke with conviction because I was reading his post wrong, not because I was trying to act "intelligent".
Which is why when someone tells you, YOU READ HIS POST WRONG on top of being inaccurate, instead of insulting them, you should consider the plausibility of the notion.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:06 PM
You were baiting, which is why I made the PMS response. You come out of nowhere regularly to call me out and your motive is clear. You made a comment about JVG and momentum with no intention at all but to incite a debate, considering it was entirely off topic for this. So don't act like you came to me with respect and I picked a fight with you and was insulting you out of the blue.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:08 PM
Wanna bet on it? CP3 leaves the Clippers and I ban bet myself. Anybody want in on this step up. I've offered it enough times. Whoever takes the bet first does the same if they lose.

WOW..... thats hard bro

Blakesfan86 and AISYSTEM in a BAN BET?


OH GAWD YES PWEEZ

kylem4711
06-10-2013, 04:09 PM
Me saying I understand basic cap at least= boasting about intelligence now? Now that's a reach if I've ever heard one. The PMS comment was the fact that even if I was wrong (I was) you went on a rant calling me out like it was a personal issue (your MO). Not everything is personal buddy, especially if I'm not talking with you. Like I've told Kyle before.. I understand you don't like me, but no need to pick random ***** fits in threads when I'm not even addressing you.

I understood a fair amount of the Poison Pill contract with the one exception of the fact that the team offering the initial contract that doesn't get matched, gets to have that money spread evenly over 3 years. So maybe I understood half of it and was misinformed but for somebody who constantly lectures on assumptions you're making an *** out of yourself by saying I knew ZERO about it. I'll speak on whatever I feel I know and if somebody is kind enough to correct me... I'll accept it if true and apologize for my misinformation, simple as that. I'm not going to stop giving opinions because I'm not always right SMH. I spoke with conviction because I was reading his post wrong, not because I was trying to act "intelligent".

I really do think that you miss the point when it comes to people "attacking" you so often. I dont hate you. This is just an internet forum. I just think that people get a little tired/annoyed that you are such a matter of fact person. you state opinion as fact, you speak for players and situations like you have inside knowledge, and you boast about the clippers and specific players consistently. Sure, plenty of other posters do this too, they just dont do it as often as you. You have 3,800 posts in two years and seemingly only post in the NBA forum. It is hard to miss your posts when you have your fingers in most of the threads here.

I will say that you have been owning up to being incorrect recently. for that, i say good job. this is just getting weird now. later.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:13 PM
Kyle I see a lot of that in myself too. Usually comes out during Clippers topics when I get put on the defensive by people bashing the team, or talking about stealing our players etc. Working on it. I've been defending the team for 14 years, most of the time when they sucked and people constantly talked trash.. hard to get out of that mind state.

kylem4711
06-10-2013, 04:26 PM
Kyle I see a lot of that in myself too. Usually comes out during Clippers topics when I get put on the defensive by people bashing the team, or talking about stealing our players etc. Working on it. I've been defending the team for 14 years, most of the time when they sucked and people constantly talked trash.. hard to get out of that mind state.

either way its just an internet forum. itll all get worked out if the clippers win a ship anyway.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:28 PM
You were baiting, which is why I made the PMS response.
You've been banned from so many places I can understand why rules confuse you. But you cannot respond to a factual post with illogical flaming. Me correcting you with unrelenting truth, and you coming back at me with PMS isn't how you one up someone. Notice how my rants/"sonning of you" (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?822323-Rockets-going-after-Dwight-Howard-AND-Chris-Paul&p=26406757#post26406757) didn't commence until after your personal attack. Even if you think Im baiting, you should never stoop lower than that by flaming someone.

Heres something of a litmus test for you to follow:

Do you seen any personal attacks in the post? If Yes, flamewar is on, you can either tell a mod or flame back. The latter is likely to lead to a dual infraction, the former will only get the op in trouble.

If no personal attack is made and you simply believe something to be true, then you should report the post and see if a Mod agrees with your opinion or you can simply respond with more truth and most definitely no personal attacks.

Remember, its alot easier to prove someone is throwing personal insults than it is to prove malicious intent of a factual post.

So while you may THINK Im baiting you, I KNOW you're personally attacking me. Thats the difference, knowing that difference is the difference between being a troll and a master debater foo



You come out of nowhere regularly to call me out and your motive is clear.
Out of nowhere? Where exactly am I suppose to come out from? My motive should be clear but apparently you think you're special. I would have corrected anyone who posted the way you did, and ignored so many posts in the process.


You made a comment about JVG and momentum with no intention at all but to incite a debate, considering it was entirely off topic for this.
Of course it was off topic, hence the need for the PS.
My ON TOPIC comment was what I opened my post with, the PS bit was extra. But good luck on thinking my post was off topic. That doesn't give you permission to start flaming. Read the rules plz.


So don't act like you came to me with respect and I picked a fight with you and was insulting you out of the blue.

LMFAO sorry but I dont have to act or pretend, Im pretty sure I didn't start the PMS accusations. Only a complete **** thinks bating begets flaming. Its alot easier to prove someone is throwing personal insults than it is to prove malicious intent of a factual post.

Thats why you should only deal with facts, respond with equal force. They flame, THEN you can flame, never flame first is my motto.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:31 PM
I never said two wrongs make a right. Or that I should respond that way. Just explaining to you why I responded the way I did and got put on the defense. I've tried the apology route with you before though and it didn't work so not much I can do. We could put each other on ignore but I don't feel like I need to run from anything. I understand what PS means but why did you have to say it here? Why not PM me that?

ChitownBears22
06-10-2013, 04:35 PM
Reading is really hard isn't it. They are targeting both, they aren't trying to get both. They would like to add either piece to the team. duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:36 PM
I really do think that you miss the point when it comes to people "attacking" you so often. I dont hate you. This is just an internet forum. I just think that people get a little tired/annoyed that you are such a matter of fact person. you state opinion as fact, you speak for players and situations like you have inside knowledge, and you boast about the clippers and specific players consistently. Sure, plenty of other posters do this too, they just dont do it as often as you. You have 3,800 posts in two years and seemingly only post in the NBA forum. It is hard to miss your posts when you have your fingers in most of the threads here.

I will say that you have been owning up to being incorrect recently. for that, i say good job. this is just getting weird now. later.

half way owning up more like it. Still thinks he did no wrong and that he can flame someone on such petty whims.

He hates disagreements, but he especially hates them when they come from me, that much is certain.

Chronz
06-10-2013, 04:43 PM
I never said two wrongs make a right.
Thats not the moral of my story. I never did anything wrong, you THINK I did. Whereas EVERYONE knows a personal insult when they see it. My point was that if you leave out the personal attacks, there is no story to be told. But because you did more than just combat an alleged bait with equal force, YOU are the one who is in the wrong. You escalated this beyond a reasonable degree. Again, if you THINK someone has wronged you, do not stoop lower.

Look you can do whatever you want, Im just saying if you want to keep from getting banned again, heed my advice. Only attack with equal force/effort, do not initiate the flame war.




I understand what PS means but why did you have to say it here? Why not PM me that?
Ill post it in private if thats all you care about, I was just trying to save myself a minute. I thought of you the minute JVG said it.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:53 PM
Okay well then maybe I'll have to ask you formally. Can you please stop quoting my posts when I'm talking to other people and calling me out and picking things apart? I understand you doing it if like in previous situations I'M the one quoting you and disagreeing etc... but it seems like you more or less just want to debate with me a lot of times.

I'm cool with debates if I get along well with somebody and I know it won't lead anywhere bad but with us whenever we disagree it turns into a thread derailing argument. I just love talking ball with people, don't want to fight with people or debate. I'll keep your posts out of my quotes and give you the same exact respect.

You didn't say anything "wrong" exactly but given our history I feel like you're being condescending in posts and go out of your way to criticize me or my posts.

ChitownBears22
06-10-2013, 04:55 PM
Okay well then maybe I'll have to ask you formally. Can you please stop quoting my posts when I'm talking to other people and calling me out and picking things apart? I understand you doing it if like in previous situations I'M the one quoting you and disagreeing etc... but it seems like you more or less just want to debate with me a lot of times.

I'm cool with debates if I get along well with somebody and I know it won't lead anywhere bad but with us whenever we disagree it turns into a thread derailing argument. I just love talking ball with people, don't want to fight with people or debate. I'll keep your posts out of my quotes and give you the same exact respect.

Who goes on a message board and tells people not to quote their idiotic posts? Do you know what a Forum is.

Please don't quote me unless you agree, is essentially what you are saying. Is that because you don't have anything buy opinion to back up your statements?

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 04:57 PM
Who goes on a message board and tells people not to quote their idiotic posts? Do you know what a Forum is.

Please don't quote me unless you agree, is essentially what you are saying. Is that because you don't have anything buy opinion to back up your statements?

No... it's specific people that it never ends peacefully and derails the thread that it's better off this way. Chronz and I have had these situations too many times. The only alternative is ignore.

ChitownBears22
06-10-2013, 05:01 PM
No... it's specific people that it never ends peacefully and derails the thread that it's better off this way. Chronz and I have had these situations too many times. The only alternative is ignore.

If it has happened multiple times why dont you use the ignore button. Logic is weak with this one.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 05:05 PM
Why can't we all say that it's plausible for the Rockets to land CP3 and Dwight, however quite a bit would have to happen prior to such a thing occurring in Houston. It would become easier for teams to sign both of them if they both chose to take less money...HAHAHAHHAAHAHAAHA.

ChitownBears22
06-10-2013, 05:08 PM
Why can't we all say that it's plausible for the Rockets to land CP3 and Dwight, however quite a bit would have to happen prior to such a thing occurring in Houston. It would become easier for teams to sign both of them if they both chose to take less money...HAHAHAHHAAHAHAAHA.

Because that isn't what this article is about. They are stating they are targeting both, not trying to acquire both. It is plausible for them to land Kobe, Dwight, CP3, LeBron and Magic Johnson.

naps
06-10-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm cool with debates if I get along well with somebody and I know it won't lead anywhere bad but with us whenever we disagree it turns into a thread derailing argument. I just love talking ball with people, don't want to fight with people or debate. I'll keep your posts out of my quotes and give you the same exact respect.

You didn't say anything "wrong" exactly but given our history I feel like you're being condescending in posts and go out of your way to criticize me or my posts.

From what I have seen you get offended when people disagree with you on Griffin, CP3, and anything related to Clippers.

Devster3
06-10-2013, 05:11 PM
Please don't crowd this forum with crap.

If The rockets can put together a package to actually pull off getting both cp3 and dwight I will be quite impressed.

If they do, They will have to trade Asik and most likely lin. But If you could keep them then your team looks like this: Nice bench!

CP3/ Lin
Harden/
Parsons/Delfino
Smith/Montiejunas/Jones (weakest position but a lot of upside)
Dwight/Asik

This team would go deep in the playoffs. Firepower off the bench and x factor Lin. A rotation of Dwight and Asik would be insane plus if they are Hacking Dwight you can just put Asik in to close games.

It would be really interesting to see. But Most likely if they do get cp3 then Lin and Asik have to go because they have those deadly contracts in year 3. So you can end up trading them for a Pf or different role players.

thoughts? Everything is just speculation

Devster3
06-10-2013, 05:12 PM
Computer posted twice. sorry

ChitownBears22
06-10-2013, 05:19 PM
Please don't crowd this forum with crap.

If The rockets can put together a package to actually pull off getting both cp3 and dwight I will be quite impressed.

If they do, They will have to trade Asik and most likely lin. But If you could keep them then your team looks like this: Nice bench!

CP3/ Lin
Harden/
Parsons/Delfino
Smith/Montiejunas/Jones (weakest position but a lot of upside)
Dwight/Asik

This team would go deep in the playoffs. Firepower off the bench and x factor Lin. A rotation of Dwight and Asik would be insane plus if they are Hacking Dwight you can just put Asik in to close games.

It would be really interesting to see. But Most likely if they do get cp3 then Lin and Asik have to go because they have those deadly contracts in year 3. So you can end up trading them for a Pf or different role players.

thoughts? Everything is just speculation

Seriously, can people not read? It doesn't say they want to acquire them both. Just that they are looking at both and would like to get one. I swear English isn't that hard.

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Wanna bet on it? CP3 leaves the Clippers and I ban bet myself. Anybody want in on this step up. I've offered it enough times. Whoever takes the bet first does the same if they lose.

No one cares as much as you do. If CP3 leaves then you don't have any incentive to post on this forum anymore anyway since the only topics you ever post on involve the Clippers, and they will be back to fighting for bottom seeds in the West for the right to get destroyed by the top seeds.

mightybosstone
06-10-2013, 05:49 PM
It's extremely unlikely, but it's certainly not impossible. If the Lakers and Clippers had the cap space to take back Asik and Lin's contracts, respectively, in a sign and trade or Morey was somehow about to move those contracts for picks or cheap prospects, it's totally possible. The Lebron, Wade, Bosh trio seemed impossible at first, too, but the Heat managed to make it work. Morey can do the same in Houston if these guys really want this to happen.

That being said, I'd give it less than a 5 percent chance of actually happening. Getting Dwight to jump ship will be hard enough, but getting Paul to leave the Clippers after they just fired Vinny Del Negro would be far more difficult.

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 05:49 PM
The Rockets, and Morey, get a lot of credit for the moves they make and generally people say he has great foresight. I can't disagree that he has done a wonderful job, especially in the last few years.

Looking back at the Lin and Asik signings though, the two moves that gained him a lot of notoriety for "outwhitting" the Bulls and Knicks in the process, they didn't really do his team too many favors.

Morey knew that he would have the space to go after at least one max player in this years FA period. He also knew that the two prized possessions in that FA class would presumably be CP3 and Dwight.

Lin and Asik are both overpaid as of now, the former more-so than the later. Lin is more difficult to move because of his positional value and dollaers, and Asik is probably the guy they would prefer to hold onto.

The real problem here is that Dwight seems more likely than CP3 to bolt his current situation, but the Rockets would benefit more form the upgrade at PG.



Would a team be willing to trade for both Asik and Lin and send a 2nd or 3rd tier star back, preferably one that plays PG or C?

To me, this seems like the most logical way to go about solving the problem they have but I'm not sure what they could get in return.

mightybosstone
06-10-2013, 05:57 PM
The Rockets, and Morey, get a lot of credit for the moves they make and generally people say he has great foresight. I can't disagree that he has done a wonderful job, especially in the last few years.

Looking back at the Lin and Asik signings though, the two moves that gained him a lot of notoriety for "outwhitting" the Bulls and Knicks in the process, they didn't really do his team too many favors.

Morey knew that he would have the space to go after at least one max player in this years FA period. He also knew that the two prized possessions in that FA class would presumably be CP3 and Dwight.
But you're forgetting one HUGE piece of the puzzle. When Morey made these deals, he had no freaking clue James Harden would be on his roster when the season started or that Harden would end up being one of the 5-10 best players in the league. If he does that, no way does he overpay for those two. But when you're in a situation like this franchise has been for the past 4-5 years, you'll overpay to bring talent to your team so that you can sell tickets and attract future star players.


Lin and Asik are both overpaid as of now, the former more-so than the later. Lin is more difficult to move because of his positional value and dollaers, and Asik is probably the guy they would prefer to hold onto.
After the first season of their contracts, I don't think Asik was overpaid at all. On the contrary, I think he was arguably underpaid for one of the best defensive centers and rebounders in the NBA. Lin, on the other hand, was admittedly overpaid, but there wasn't really a way to know what kind of starter he would be if given starter minutes over a full season.


The real problem here is that Dwight seems more likely than CP3 to bolt his current situation, but the Rockets would benefit more form the upgrade at PG.

Would a team be willing to trade for both Asik and Lin and send a 2nd or 3rd tier star back, preferably one that plays PG or C?

To me, this seems like the most logical way to go about solving the problem they have but I'm not sure what they could get in return.
I think you're ruling out the potential for a sign and trade. If you're the Lakers and you could make enough cap space to take back Omer Asik in a sign and trade for Howard, you wouldn't have to think twice about it. The Clippers and Lin might be a different story, but I wouldn't rule out a team taking a chance on Lin given his prior success and marketability.

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 06:10 PM
But you're forgetting one HUGE piece of the puzzle. When Morey made these deals, he had no freaking clue James Harden would be on his roster when the season started or that Harden would end up being one of the 5-10 best players in the league. If he does that, no way does he overpay for those two. But when you're in a situation like this franchise has been for the past 4-5 years, you'll overpay to bring talent to your team so that you can sell tickets and attract future star players.


After the first season of their contracts, I don't think Asik was overpaid at all. On the contrary, I think he was arguably underpaid for one of the best defensive centers and rebounders in the NBA. Lin, on the other hand, was admittedly overpaid, but there wasn't really a way to know what kind of starter he would be if given starter minutes over a full season.


I think you're ruling out the potential for a sign and trade. If you're the Lakers and you could make enough cap space to take back Omer Asik in a sign and trade for Howard, you wouldn't have to think twice about it. The Clippers and Lin might be a different story, but I wouldn't rule out a team taking a chance on Lin given his prior success and marketability.

You are definitely right about him not knowing he would have James Harden. I would also probably agree that Asik is paid just about right, considering that C's in general are overpaid and compared to...say, my boy Tyson, who provides similar qualities, Asik is definitely the better value .

But does that really have a huge effect on planning for this years FA class? He would have still had a similar amount of space available, correct?

It also doesn't change the fact that Asik and Lin both play the positions that CP3 and Dwight do.

To your last point about a s&t: Considering the situation the Lakers are in, I doubt they would want to s&t Howard. They want as much cap space available if he is going to walk, then they will have Kobe's expiring the year after as well. If Dwight is going to walk and Kobe is going to be hurt/ not the same Kobe we are used to seeing, then this is a lost season for the Lakers anyway.

knicksfan1969
06-10-2013, 06:11 PM
Chandler and Lin to the Lakers
Asik and Robinson to the Knicks plus #1
Dwight to the Houston Rockets

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Chandler and Lin to the Lakers
Asik and Robinson to the Knicks plus #1
Dwight to the Houston Rockets

You really think Chandler is worth Asik, Robinson AND a first rounder?

Devster3
06-10-2013, 06:28 PM
Seriously, can people not read? It doesn't say they want to acquire them both. Just that they are looking at both and would like to get one. I swear English isn't that hard.

It says "IF"

mightybosstone
06-10-2013, 06:45 PM
But does that really have a huge effect on planning for this years FA class? He would have still had a similar amount of space available, correct?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but if you're referring to Harden, then it definitely has an effect on their cap. Prior to the Harden trade and signing, Houston would have had damn close to enough space to sign two max contract players. Now they only have the space to add one max contract player. If you have enough space to sign two max contract players, you wouldn't mind overpaying for two role players with upside like Lin and Asik.


It also doesn't change the fact that Asik and Lin both play the positions that CP3 and Dwight do.
It doesn't, but prior to this season, Morey might not have thought that Paul and Howard were likely candidates to join the Rockets.


To your last point about a s&t: Considering the situation the Lakers are in, I doubt they would want to s&t Howard. They want as much cap space available if he is going to walk, then they will have Kobe's expiring the year after as well. If Dwight is going to walk and Kobe is going to be hurt/ not the same Kobe we are used to seeing, then this is a lost season for the Lakers anyway.
Yes, but if you're the Lakers, you also will want to rebuild around young talent after Kobe and Pau's contracts expire and you have a ton of cap space. If they trade for Asik, they'd obviously have one crap season regardless, but at least they'd have Asik for that third year where they could feasibly add some stars around him, AND they'd have his Bird rights after his contract expires.

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 07:19 PM
I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but if you're referring to Harden, then it definitely has an effect on their cap. Prior to the Harden trade and signing, Houston would have had damn close to enough space to sign two max contract players. Now they only have the space to add one max contract player. If you have enough space to sign two max contract players, you wouldn't mind overpaying for two role players with upside like Lin and Asik.

That is what I meant and after looking at the salaries and realizing that KMart was an expiring contract, you're right, Harden basically takes his "cap hold" (not literally, but for lack of a better word)




Yes, but if you're the Lakers, you also will want to rebuild around young talent after Kobe and Pau's contracts expire and you have a ton of cap space. If they trade for Asik, they'd obviously have one crap season regardless, but at least they'd have Asik for that third year where they could feasibly add some stars around him, AND they'd have his Bird rights after his contract expires.

Now, I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Asik's cap hit in that 3rd season is about $15 million.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

That isn't exactly conducive to the Lakers plans if they intend on signing a couple of max contract free agents that year, of which there could potentially be many.

bholly
06-10-2013, 07:29 PM
I was under the understanding that Lin was offered that "poison pill" contract" and NY failed to match it. Didn't know they could restructure it away from 15 million in 3rd year and if they indeed can that's bogus.


I don't see how a new CBA exploitation is basic knowledge. It doesn't make any logical sense at all to me that teams can even do that and it seems unethical.

They didn't restructure anything. The Rockets offered $25m over 3 years. Lin was an RFA, which meant the Knicks can match an offer and keep him if they want. The problem is that he was only an Early Bird free agent (which was the result of the legal arbitration that was a big story that offseason), which means that if they want to go over the cap to re-sign him they can offer at most the greater of 175% of his previous salary or 104.5% of the previous league average, or they have to use an exception - but they can't go over the cap to re-sign them to whatever (like you can with regular Bird rights players).

This meant that the most the Knicks could spend on him was the MLE - $5m.
The problem is that that's less than the Rockets were willing to pay with $25m over 3 years.

It used to be that in that situation they'd be **** out of luck - they couldn't match the offer, so they'd lose Lin. That's what happened with Gilbert Arenas leaving the Warriors in 2003. But that's unfair to the team losing the player, so they made a rule (referred to as the 'Gilbert Arenas rule') that lets the team match the contract - by pushing the first and second year salaries down so that the first year fits into the MLE, and then giving a big raise over the rest of the contract. For Lin that meant $5m the first year, slightly about $5m the second year, and about $15m in the third year to add up to $25m.
There's no reason to keep the special structure if the offer isn't matched and the player goes to the signing team (who have the cap room for a normal contract, otherwise they couldn't have made the offer in the first place), especially because a third-year raise that big is against the rules usually, so they make the contract flat if it isn't matched.
(side note: I believe that either way, the player literally gets paid as if the contract were matched, which a few people alluded to, but what everyone cares about is actually how it counts against the cap, so we generally ignore that).

If anything, the rule makes it so that normal contracts get restructured in a special way so that teams can keep their RFAs. For the Rockets it's just a normal contract offer to a guy they want, and there's nothing unethical about that.
The only way around it would be to make it so that the Knicks can't match the offer (which is unfair for them), or so that the Knicks can go above the cap to re-sign him to any offer (which is against the whole point of the salary cap), or restrict the amount the Rockets can offer (which is unfair to Lin and the Rockets). None of those are good options.

Exact same thing goes for Asik and the Bulls.

For more info see Q44 of the CBAFAQ, where most of this info came from - http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q44.

In short: the Rockets didn't do any restructuring. They offered a player a contract, and because the Knicks and Bulls didn't have the room or rights to match the contracts usually, they get the option of matching a restructured version where they can afford the first two years, and then there's a big raise after that to make up for it.

tr3ymill3r
06-10-2013, 07:30 PM
Because that isn't what this article is about. They are stating they are targeting both, not trying to acquire both. It is plausible for them to land Kobe, Dwight, CP3, LeBron and Magic Johnson.

Yes, however everyone in this forum has made it out to to be that the Rockets can't afford the two of them.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 07:32 PM
They didn't restructure anything. The Rockets offered $25m over 3 years. Lin was an RFA, which meant the Knicks can match an offer and keep him if they want. The problem is that he was only an Early Bird free agent (which was the result of the legal arbitration that was a big story that offseason), which means that if they want to go over the cap to re-sign him they can offer at most the greater of 175% of his previous salary or 104.5% of the previous league average, or they have to use an exception - but they can't go over the cap to re-sign them to whatever (like you can with regular Bird rights players).

This meant that the most the Knicks could spend on him was the MLE - $5m.
The problem is that that's less than the Rockets were willing to pay with $25m over 3 years.

It used to be that in that situation they'd be **** out of luck - they couldn't match the offer, so they'd lose Lin. That's what happened with Gilbert Arenas leaving the Warriors in 2003. But that's unfair to the team losing the player, so they made a rule (referred to as the 'Gilbert Arenas rule') that lets the team match the contract - by pushing the first and second year salaries down so that the first year fits into the MLE, and then giving a big raise over the rest of the contract. For Lin that meant $5m the first year, slightly about $5m the second year, and about $15m in the third year to add up to $25m.
There's no reason to keep the special structure if the offer isn't matched and the player goes to the signing team (who have the cap room for a normal contract, otherwise they couldn't have made the offer in the first place), especially because a third-year raise that big is against the rules usually, so they make the contract flat if it isn't matched.
(side note: the player literally gets paid as if its a flat contract either way, which a few people alluded to, but what everyone cares about is actually how it counts against the cap, so we generally ignore that).

If anything, the rule makes it so that normal contracts get restructured in a special way so that teams can keep their RFAs. For the Rockets it's just a normal contract offer to a guy they want, and there's nothing unethical about that.
The only way around it would be to make it so that the Knicks can't match the offer (which is unfair for them), or so that the Knicks can go above the cap to re-sign him to any offer (which is against the whole point of the salary cap), or restrict the amount the Rockets can offer (which is unfair to Lin and the Rockets). None of those are good options.

Exact same thing goes for Asik and the Bulls.

For more info see Q44 of the CBAFAQ, where most of this info came from - http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q44.

In short: the Rockets didn't do any restructuring. They offered a player a contract, and because the Knicks and Bulls didn't have the room or rights to match the contracts usually, they get the option of matching a restructured version where they can afford the first two years, and then there's a big raise after that to make up for it.

Yea later on I read more on it and figured out what the confusion was. Although it's still referred to as an "exploit" on basketball websites so I still find it a bit unethical. It gives the team offering the first contract almost 100 percent of the power and insane odds to get the player.

mightybosstone
06-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Now, I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Asik's cap hit in that 3rd season is about $15 million.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

That isn't exactly conducive to the Lakers plans if they intend on signing a couple of max contract free agents that year, of which there could potentially be many.

Nah.... The cap hit is actually only $8.3 million. The actually cap hit over the three-year contract was identical each year, but the Rockets ACTUALLY will pay him essentially $5 million, $5 million and $15 million for the first, second and third year of the deal, respectively.

bholly
06-10-2013, 07:42 PM
Edited the side note about actual payments - meant to say that they actually get paid as if it were matched (5/5/15) either way, not that they get paid as if it were flat - but it still makes no difference to basketball.


Now, I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Asik's cap hit in that 3rd season is about $15 million.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston.htm

They have it wrong. Well, sort of. They're showing a different thing.
I think hoopshype salaries are the actual amounts literally paid to the players, rather than the amounts that count towards the cap. That's why they also count amnestied players in the cap numbers (eg see Philly's page).
Not sure why they do it that way - obviously the actual cap hits are more relevant to people than the amounts players actually get paid. The latter could be of interest if you're trying to figure out owners' motivations and whether they'd be willing to take on salary or whatever, but in that case they should also include the tax and other things. It's really weird.

Anyway, sites that just list cap hits, rather than salary as it's literally paid, have it right - eg storytellerscontracts.com


Yea later on I read more on it and figured out what the confusion was. Although it's still referred to as an "exploit" on basketball websites so I still find it a bit unethical. It gives the team offering the first contract almost 100 percent of the power and insane odds to get the player.

What other way around it is there? The current rule actually weakens offering teams - before this you could make an offer that the team didn't even have a choice to match.

WARRIORS@GR
06-10-2013, 07:43 PM
Chandler and Lin to the Lakers
Asik and Robinson to the Knicks plus #1
Dwight to the Houston Rockets
Lol at this trade..I would give it a really BIG thought to trade Asik for Chandler straight up.Probably wouldn't do it,based on age.Chandler can only regress going forward.
Adding Trob and a 1st?lol

I'm preety sure if the Rockets are getting Howard,they would prefer trading Asik for picks(or keep him for the bench) than taking back a big contract like Chandler.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 07:46 PM
Edited the side note about actual payments - meant to say that they actually get paid as if it were matched (5/5/15) either way, not that they get paid as if it were flat - but it still makes no difference to basketball.



They have it wrong. Well, sort of. They're showing a different thing.
I think hoopshype salaries are the actual amounts literally paid to the players, rather than the amounts that count towards the cap. That's why they also count amnestied players in the cap numbers (eg see Philly's page).
Not sure why they do it that way - obviously the actual cap hits are more relevant to people than the amounts players actually get paid. The latter could be of interest if you're trying to figure out owners' motivations and whether they'd be willing to take on salary or whatever, but in that case they should also include the tax and other things. It's really weird.

Anyway, sites that just list cap hits, rather than salary as it's literally paid, have it right - eg storytellerscontracts.com



What other way around it is there? The current rule actually weakens offering teams - before this you could make an offer that the team didn't even have a choice to match.

For bird rights owners I thought you could always match, even going over the cap?

http://basketball.about.com/od/nba-cba-glossary/g/Poison-Pill-Contract.htm

bholly
06-10-2013, 07:52 PM
For bird rights owners I thought you could always match, even going over the cap?

http://basketball.about.com/od/nba-cba-glossary/g/Poison-Pill-Contract.htm

That's for Bird rights. Lin and Asik were only Early Bird.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2013, 08:02 PM
Nah.... The cap hit is actually only $8.3 million. The actually cap hit over the three-year contract was identical each year, but the Rockets ACTUALLY will pay him essentially $5 million, $5 million and $15 million for the first, second and third year of the deal, respectively.

Alright, well then that changes the number they have listed for the salary for next year. You have to add 6 million since they only count Asik and Lin at ~5 million instead of ~8 million. That brings the total team salary for next year to ~44 million before any additions.

The cap is being projected at $58.5 million, near the same number as this year.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/3/4390930/nba-salary-cap-2013-14-rumors


If that is the case, then the Rockets don't have enough space to sign even 1 max contract outright.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 08:02 PM
That's for Bird rights. Lin and Asik were only Early Bird.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

OOOOOOOOO. That's another part of what's confusing me. Thought they had Bird rights (both of them). So basically the league is giving teams an EXTRA chance to re-sign a player they could never otherwise afford to keep as you said. This is the league telling them they can keep a player at their own peril.

jam
06-10-2013, 08:12 PM
Wishful thinking IMO. Paul wants a ring. And he knows teaming with Dwight is his best option for achieving his goal.

Paul is one of the most competitive guys in the NBA: he's up there with Kobe in that regard. Plus, Paul has wanted to team with Dwight for quite some time in any event.

There's no guarantee this happens, but get reading for the bandwagoners if it does.


Difference between CP3 and Dwight that people seem to be ignoring is that CP3 has always sought the big lights, the endorsements. Dwight on the other hand is TERRIFIED of the pressure and the spotlight it seems. A great basketball city like Houston that's a lot more low key than LA would appeal to him FAR more than it would to CP3.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 08:40 PM
What did Dwight prove this year that he's the best option for any success? Only place that can feasibly acquire both is Atlanta and I don't see it. Mind showing me where it says he wanted to play with Dwight for a long time?

bholly
06-10-2013, 09:29 PM
^Houston being able to sign both is totally feasible. They have a bunch of small and nonguaranteed contracts that are a cinch to move, and Asik is unlikely to be a problem. Toughest is Lin, and he's not exactly awful or on an awful contract. Given all the other cheap pieces they have, and all their future first round picks, they'll have a plenty good chance at ditching everything they need to.

I agree that there isn't much recent evidence (or at least I haven't seen it) of CP3 being super keen to play with Dwight, though.

Clippersfan86
06-10-2013, 09:31 PM
^Houston being able to sign both is totally feasible. They have a bunch of small and nonguaranteed contracts that are a cinch to move, and Asik is unlikely to be a problem. Toughest is Lin, and he's not exactly awful or on an awful contract. Given all the other cheap pieces they have, and all their future first round picks, they'll have a plenty good chance at ditching everything they need to.

I agree that there isn't much recent evidence (or at least I haven't seen it) of CP3 being super keen to play with Dwight, though.

I meant with current cap obviously. Although the article isn't about gutting the team for both, it's about pursuing both so at least they have a chance for one. Casting a wider net. Notice all the rumors/talk of Dwight ditching LA for Houston but absolutely ZERO about CP3? It's not because Houston doesn't want him. It's because he's very happy with his situation with the Clippers.

bholly
06-10-2013, 09:57 PM
^^Agreed that CP3 seems to be happier in LAC than Dwight does in LAL. I also know that we barely know the first thing about any of these guys' lives or motivations or thoughts or whatever - we're all just assuming based on not that much info, so that he 'seems to be happier' to us isn't anything meaningful. I'm not really interested in arguing about what these guys want and all that, or using things like 'how many rumors there are' as substantial evidence of what a guy is thinking.
Whether or not the players would go for something is a question that can only be answered by waiting to find out what they do - presenting evidence and arguing about it here and trying to convince people is a waste of time. It's meaningless.

What can be disputed and argued about is what's possible within the cap rules - and to that end, all I was saying was that "Only place that can feasibly acquire both is Atlanta" is wrong.

SportsFanatic10
06-10-2013, 10:14 PM
i think there's a good chance they get howard to go with harden and parsons. they should probably keep robinson though, i don't see them getting cp3 i think he stays with the clips.

c.c.
06-10-2013, 11:31 PM
Off season interview with Howard and Paul, "We decided to take our talents to Southeast Texas and play for the Houston Rockets"

jam
06-11-2013, 12:11 AM
TRob is horrible. He's too short to play the 4, and too slow to play the 3. An unfortunate 'tweener who is the worst of both worlds. Terence Jones shows tremendous promise and I think he can be a very productive 15/8 if he played 35 mpg.

If Howard and/or Paul don't work out, Houston should go after an elite 4, such as lamarcus or love wheny they are available. Either LMA or Love + TJ + Parsons + Asik would serve as a great frontline. Not quite championship caliber, however, which is why Morey is of course targeting 2 of the top 5 players in the game today this offseason.

houstonfan
06-11-2013, 12:33 AM
I meant with current cap obviously. Although the article isn't about gutting the team for both, it's about pursuing both so at least they have a chance for one. Casting a wider net. Notice all the rumors/talk of Dwight ditching LA for Houston but absolutely ZERO about CP3? It's not because Houston doesn't want him. It's because he's very happy with his situation with the Clippers.


Did Chris Paul tell you he is happy? I mean you seem to be best friends with him

c.c.
06-11-2013, 12:41 AM
Did Chris Paul tell you he is happy? I mean you seem to be best friends with him

:clap:

Aust
06-11-2013, 12:48 AM
If they could land Dwight and Paul that team would look good.

KnickaBocka.44
06-11-2013, 02:11 AM
TRob is horrible. He's too short to play the 4, and too slow to play the 3. An unfortunate 'tweener who is the worst of both worlds. Terence Jones shows tremendous promise and I think he can be a very productive 15/8 if he played 35 mpg.

If Howard and/or Paul don't work out, Houston should go after an elite 4, such as lamarcus or love wheny they are available. Either LMA or Love + TJ + Parsons + Asik would serve as a great frontline. Not quite championship caliber, however, which is why Morey is of course targeting 2 of the top 5 players in the game today this offseason.

Thomas Robinson and Terrence Jones are both 6'9''. Robinson is much stronger and more athletic than Jones in virtually every way and, on top of that, is a better rebounder.

Jones was a bit more efficient shooting the ball in their first season, but to say one is "horrible" and that the other shows "tremendous promise" just shows extreme prejudice on your part.

The second part of this post is even more ridiculous for a couple of different reasons:

1) If you add LA or KLove to that front court, without subtracting anything, then it is most definitely championship caliber when you consider that Harden, a top 10 player, is the focal point of the offense.

2) You act like they can get Love or Lamarcus for nothing. You just named off everyone in their frontcourt (minus Robinson who is at least equivalent to Jones, and should also be noted, as I have already explained), added one of those guys and didn't even take into consideration that the Wolves of Blazers would ask for at least 2/3 of those players, and possibly a 1st round pick, in return for a player of that caliber.


I felt the need to correct you on a few things because I've noticed a trend in your posts. They are constantly demeaning never have any support for them whatsoever.

If you are going to talk like an authority on the game, you need to know your **** first.