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View Full Version : Bobcats could target Bosh for No. 4 pick



jon32
06-09-2013, 04:21 PM
Sports Illustrated ‏@SInow 13m
Report: Bobcats could target Miami Heat's Chris Bosh in trade for No. 4 pick http://ow.ly/1XeVuz

I bet he'd just love that.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 04:23 PM
If the HEAT could get a 4 pick from Bosh that would be interesting. I don't know how I feel about it though. Bosh is still a good player. A 4 for Wade would be nicer, but wouldn't happen. We could target a real big man at 4.

Redskins10
06-09-2013, 04:27 PM
This draft is weak.. Really not worth it for Miami. Should trade Bosh for a big like Demarcus Cousins.

KniCks4LiFe
06-09-2013, 04:28 PM
LOLS yeh right MJ. :laugh2:

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 04:30 PM
This draft is weak.. Really not worth it for Miami. Should trade Bosh for a big like Demarcus Cousins.

People saying this draft is weak are clueless. There aren't any huge stars, but there are quite a few solid players. Pope, Pressey, Porter and Dieng all should be good picks IMO.

lvlheaded
06-09-2013, 04:36 PM
It will be interesting to see what the Heat do if they lose this year. We will be one year away from another LeBron decision and Cleveland will have a good young core of Irving-Waiters-Thompson-Noel with another high draft pick probably on the horizon. Meanwhile Miami will have an aging Wade and a mediocre supporting cast around Bosh and Bron. As tremendous as he is, I'm not sure LeBron will stick around just because. If he sees a better opportunity to continue his greatness while having good help to keep winning rings, he will probably take it. Miami will have to do something to keep him, I'm just not sure this is it

abe_froman
06-09-2013, 04:38 PM
thats funny,in this years draft that would only get a burst of laughter from miami

SportsFanatic10
06-09-2013, 04:40 PM
lol no way this happens.

WITZ
06-09-2013, 04:44 PM
This will be me :laugh: if the heat do this move in an attempt to get younger.

ChitownBears22
06-09-2013, 04:45 PM
This will be me :laugh: if the heat do this move in an attempt to get younger.

You realize it wouldn't be straight up Bosh for pick, right? Guess not. It wouldn't be just to get younger. It would be to get cap space as well to bring in other players.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-09-2013, 04:46 PM
You can have Rondo for it:shrug:

MagicBucsSox
06-09-2013, 05:04 PM
Can be true or Miami would've done that before game 2. Use that cap space to get a true big like al Jefferson etc.

Jint.
06-09-2013, 05:06 PM
went to Charlotte... like a Bosh

dee279
06-09-2013, 05:27 PM
went to Charlotte... like a Bosh

:facepalm:

akesh99
06-09-2013, 05:46 PM
lol that would be the ultimate karma for that douche

Kyben36
06-09-2013, 05:47 PM
I dont like anyhone in this draft except for NOrlens for them, and he is gone by 4, I dont like this trade for miami at all. also, there are lots of other players they could target with that pick, will be interesting to see if they move it.

More-Than-Most
06-09-2013, 05:53 PM
If I were the heat I would do it just for Salary purposes....Trade Bosh and get a young high upside impact good player and trade wade as well and go get another superstar.... Just like that they become a better team

Dade County
06-09-2013, 05:54 PM
Bobcats have a crazy person running their team.

h2r09
06-09-2013, 06:03 PM
Ya, no. Heat would never do this nor would it make sense for them to do this.

black1605
06-09-2013, 06:25 PM
LOLS yeh right MJ. :laugh2:

What does Jordan have to do with this? It's a journalist's speculating, zero substance to the rumor. Take the time to click the link and read the article.

Sinattle
06-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Do it then sign D12

MrfadeawayJB
06-09-2013, 06:40 PM
They should. One of the big 3 has to go eventually. Trade him, get a top rookie (in his rookie contract), use some left over $$$ to bring in vets who want a ring

More-Than-Most
06-09-2013, 06:52 PM
They should. One of the big 3 has to go eventually. Trade him, get a top rookie (in his rookie contract), use some left over $$$ to bring in vets who want a ring

And there it is :clap:

God when people think logically it is sex.

Redskins10
06-09-2013, 07:01 PM
People saying this draft is weak are clueless. There aren't any huge stars, but there are quite a few solid players. Pope, Pressey, Porter and Dieng all should be good picks IMO.

Better than a proven allstar/borderline superstar that's having his first slump since joining the team? You're gonna break up the big three for Otto Porter, really bruh?

TestedWest
06-09-2013, 07:05 PM
If the HEAT could get a 4 pick from Bosh that would be interesting. I don't know how I feel about it though. Bosh is still a good player. A 4 for Wade would be nicer, but wouldn't happen. We could target a real big man at 4.

Haha good one. It's statements like this that lead me to really question some of our Heat fans as loyalty is often hard to come by anymore. I know Wade's situation looks bleak at times but to blatantly say that you would rather trade Wade instead of bosh for a 4TH PICK in the draft, appears completely askew.

LeperMessiah
06-09-2013, 07:06 PM
People saying this draft is weak are clueless. There aren't any huge stars, but there are quite a few solid players. Pope, Pressey, Porter and Dieng all should be good picks IMO.
That's what a lot of teams are desperate, hence weak draft.

Mell413
06-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Better than a proven allstar/borderline superstar that's having his first slump since joining the team? You're gonna break up the big three for Otto Porter, really bruh?

This is pretty much my thoughts. I'm not moving Bosh for anyone in this draft.

MrfadeawayJB
06-09-2013, 07:26 PM
Half of you guys are looking it as

Lose :
Bosh

Gain:
#4 pick


in reality its
Lose:
Bosh

Gain:
#4 pick
flexibility to sign other vets

nycericanguy
06-09-2013, 07:33 PM
You realize it wouldn't be straight up Bosh for pick, right? Guess not. It wouldn't be just to get younger. It would be to get cap space as well to bring in other players.

without Bosh MIA is still well over the cap... losing Bosh doesn't give them any cap space.

I wouldn't do it, Bosh is still in his prime and chances are will be better than anyone at #4 for the next 3-4 years.

Now if CHA offered the #4 and say Henderson or Biyumbo... then that might be interesting.

HuRRiCaNeS324
06-09-2013, 07:35 PM
People saying this draft is weak are clueless. There aren't any huge stars, but there are quite a few solid players. Pope, Pressey, Porter and Dieng all should be good picks IMO.

Yea but not to trade Chris Bosh for...

A #4 pick in this draft is going to be a solid role player at best.

HuRRiCaNeS324
06-09-2013, 07:36 PM
Haha good one. It's statements like this that lead me to really question some of our Heat fans as loyalty is often hard to come by anymore. I know Wade's situation looks bleak at times but to blatantly say that you would rather trade Wade instead of bosh for a 4TH PICK in the draft, appears completely askew.

No way that clown is a Heat fan

TestedWest
06-09-2013, 07:40 PM
No way that clown is a Heat fan

Yeah definitely a "Lebron fan"/troll. Take your pick.

RiceOnTheRun
06-09-2013, 07:46 PM
Miami does not win without Bosh. Bosh does not leave Miami without Lebron's approval.

Like it or not, Lebron does have that leverage within the organization. Also, the organization itself wouldn't even let it get to that because they know how crucial a jump-shooting big is to their gameplan. Unless they get someone like Dirk and another good big it's not even worth batting an eye.

RiceOnTheRun
06-09-2013, 07:47 PM
Yeah definitely a "Lebron fan"/troll. Take your pick.

More like kid missing a chromosome.

Slug3
06-09-2013, 07:53 PM
Pat Riley and Miami do not like building through the draft, and seeing how this is a weak draft it wont happen.

GunFactor187
06-09-2013, 07:59 PM
#4 Pick, Pistons 1st Rounder, Kemba Walker, Bismack Biyombo, Ben Gordon (exp 13-14) would probably do the trick.

Asik's better
06-09-2013, 08:28 PM
I wouldn't be against rockets trading Asik, Lin, filler and maybe Trobb for Bosh. As long as it left cap over for Dwight.

bholly
06-09-2013, 08:53 PM
My question is that if the Heat were keen for this, wouldn't they be even better going to Washington and getting the #3 along with Okafor's last year? Or even trying to get the #1 and Andy V (with CLE's rationale being that Bosh and Kyrie could help lure LBJ in 2014)? Unless Charlotte are offering some of their best youth, I don't think they can make the best offer - and why would they when Bosh would just opt out next year anyway?
Doesn't make any sense.


Half of you guys are looking it as

Lose :
Bosh

Gain:
#4 pick


in reality its
Lose:
Bosh

Gain:
#4 pick
flexibility to sign other vets

What flexibility? They're so far over the cap it wouldn't help much at all. I guess it would allow them to accept S+Ts, but how big of a gain is that? They rarely happen, and the Heat don't have anything more valuable than Bosh that they'd send the other way anyway.

Sly Guy
06-09-2013, 10:29 PM
This draft is weak.. Really not worth it for Miami. Should trade Bosh for a big like Demarcus Cousins.

this is closer to the type of deal I'd do if I were the heat. May take more than just Bosh to pry Cousins away, but that's the type of move I'd be going for.

with the #4 pick, if you select a big, a pure power player, then it'll take 2-3 years before that kind of pick is up to par in the NBA. You have an aging Wade, and LeBron's prime to deal with in the meantime. They should look for an established post player instead of a potential one.

OceanSpray
06-09-2013, 10:43 PM
I don't want to see Bosh go but he or Wade, one of them, has to go. They can't win with the same core. I'd love it if Miami goes after Dwight Howard. Would be sad to see Bosh go, though. He seems like an emotional individual.

naps
06-09-2013, 10:53 PM
LOL keep dreaming MJ. Riley would be ROFL!!

OceanSpray
06-09-2013, 11:05 PM
LOL keep dreaming MJ. Riley would be ROFL!!

Not a bad move by Miami. They really need to solve that center issue and Bobcats would be stripping Miami of Bosh's salary and they get something in return. If they meet Pacers again next year, Miami won't win.

gwrighter
06-09-2013, 11:58 PM
It's more likely that they'll get Bargnani than Bosh.

king4day
06-10-2013, 12:26 AM
What does Jordan have to do with this? It's a journalist's speculating, zero substance to the rumor. Take the time to click the link and read the article.

For some reason, people still think Jordan is making the moves and don't realize Cho is there. Since it has been years since those days, I have to think it's just the popular thing to believe in order to rip the Charlotte organization.

king4day
06-10-2013, 12:27 AM
I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that if Miami is interested in this deal, then Cleveland should offer the first and change for Bosh.

NYCkid12
06-10-2013, 12:47 AM
I read somewhere in this thread it's a move to free cap space to sign another star... Even after trading Bosh they won't have the space to sign another big contract, maybe a few lower salary vets who can be productive

Also, someone mentioned the draft being better than everyone is saying .. I agree that later in the draft it's deeper for solid role player type guys than most people think but early on in the draft it is weak in the sense that there is no guy that is projected to be a franchise player type .. Not to say mclemore or Noel can't be (even though neither will be there at 4 for Miami and mclemore isn't a need for heat) but there's no Irving , Davis , Lebron type

naps
06-10-2013, 12:59 AM
Not a bad move by Miami. They really need to solve that center issue and Bobcats would be stripping Miami of Bosh's salary and they get something in return. If they meet Pacers again next year, Miami won't win.

Not a bad move? What are they gonna get with that #4 pick? It's a poor draft class and Miami's bad history of drafting and developing young players doesn't make it any better. And why would LeBron waste his prime for a young uncertain rookie to mature while he has a proven all-star who is in his prime in Bosh? I guess, ex-cavs fans, like you would support everything that makes LeBron leave. Makes sense now.

greg_ory_2005
06-10-2013, 01:04 AM
The Heat would never do this. Doesn't make any sense for them, especially if they win the title this year.

mjt20mik
06-10-2013, 01:40 AM
The Heat would never do this. Doesn't make any sense for them, especially if they win the title this year.

3 players taking up almost all the salary cap, would be the best reason.

sunsfan88
06-10-2013, 01:59 AM
Why would the Bobcats do this? Getting a 30+ year old Bosh isn't going to help them contend for anything.

This isn't a bad deal for the Heat. If they can get a good C with that pick like Alex Len or Steven Adams, they would have a complete team. All the rookie C would need to do is protect the rim and rebound.

YouCan'tBeatLA
06-10-2013, 05:22 AM
Bobcats are giving up too much.

thesprite
06-10-2013, 11:35 AM
Bosh for an unproven player is risky. Wade is declining, and if Bosh is gone, Miami will struggle. You guys look at individual talent--- I agree that Bosh isn't performing well. But Bosh's worth is more than that. He is vital as Miami's stretch 5. Remove that, and a guy like Hibbert will just camp inside the paint. > Insert game 1 of Miami-Indiana series here<

MTL_123
06-10-2013, 12:33 PM
lmoa

todu82
06-10-2013, 12:48 PM
Doubt this would happen. Miami's not trading a guy like Bosh within their division.

naps
06-10-2013, 01:01 PM
Charlotte has nothing that could entice Miami.

abe_froman
06-10-2013, 01:15 PM
3 players taking up almost all the salary cap, would be the best reason.
so? its not like ts hindering them any(both in revenue and on court performance)

ryang
06-10-2013, 01:20 PM
Everyone realize wade and bosh could very well take pay cuts after next season right? These threads are a waste of time. Bosh for the 4th? Not many people know Riley to well.

OceanSpray
06-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Not a bad move? What are they gonna get with that #4 pick? It's a poor draft class and Miami's bad history of drafting and developing young players doesn't make it any better. And why would LeBron waste his prime for a young uncertain rookie to mature while he has a proven all-star who is in his prime in Bosh? I guess, ex-cavs fans, like you would support everything that makes LeBron leave. Makes sense now.

Who are you? I wasn't even a LeBron fan until he came to Miami. I realized how great he was and truly admired his game. You don't know what you're talking about. Miami could free up Bosh and solve their issue in grabbing someone who can rebound. Bosh can't rebound and they will lose against the Pacers next year. Pacers exploited them this season, terribly. I never said Miami should. I'm just saying it wouldn't be a bad move if they were trying to clear cap space and grab someone who can actually solve their #1 issue. Go to school before you quote me.

bholly
06-10-2013, 06:44 PM
Everyone realize wade and bosh could very well take pay cuts after next season right? These threads are a waste of time. Bosh for the 4th? Not many people know Riley to well.

lol. so speculative. the team are going to be above the apron either way, so there'd be no effect on operations - it'd essentially be them agreeing to give money back to the billionaire owner. why in the world would they do that?

mgsports
06-10-2013, 07:27 PM
Heat get Dudley,Gortat,Beasley and Frye Magic get the guy with a 4 letter name from Bucks and one of Suns picks Suns get Bosh and the player from the Bucks that they are rumored to be getting Bucks get Joel Anthony and 4th pick

ryang
06-10-2013, 09:26 PM
lol. so speculative. the team are going to be above the apron either way, so there'd be no effect on operations - it'd essentially be them agreeing to give money back to the billionaire owner. why in the world would they do that?

Do you mean like wade did 3 years ago? Wade will not get another max contract. He will want Lebron to stay. Pretty sure the big 3 have shown us all that they care more about winning then getting top dollar.

bholly
06-10-2013, 09:39 PM
No, not like that. They took cuts three years ago so they could all get together under the cap rules. It was the only way to play together (and with Miller), and that's why they did it. Now they'd be opting out and re-signing for even less purely to save the owner money. That's different.

If Arison comes out and says "take less or I'm trading you" then that's a whole other thing - but he'd have to know beforehand that the public aren't siding with the billionaire, and it might end up costing him LBJ as well, so it's tough to see him taking that road.

ryang
06-10-2013, 09:58 PM
I look at it is. Wade opts out. Takes a paycut so we can sign a center. That would keep Lebron here IMO. Or if you want to look at it your way then the following year when wades contract is up and he is 33 he takes a paycut. He won't go play for the dumb franchises who would pay a declining 33 year old the max. Chicago, Boston , LA etc etc wont pay wade the max at 33. Wade will take a pay cut its just a matter of next year or the following year IMO. Bosh well Riley might laugh when he says max so who knows there. I see them staying together after 2015 and in sure Riley has a better plan as to how to do it then anyone on psd.

FernandoDw
06-10-2013, 10:09 PM
i think Bosh isn't going anywhere for now

bholly
06-10-2013, 10:15 PM
I look at it is. Wade opts out. Takes a paycut so we can sign a center. That would keep Lebron here IMO. Or if you want to look at it your way then the following year when wades contract is up and he is 33 he takes a paycut. He won't go play for the dumb franchises who would pay a declining 33 year old the max. Chicago, Boston , LA etc etc wont pay wade the max at 33. Wade will take a pay cut its just a matter of next year or the following year IMO. Bosh well Riley might laugh when he says max so who knows there. I see them staying together after 2015 and in sure Riley has a better plan as to how to do it then anyone on psd.

They don't expire until 2016. The 2015-16 season is a player option just like 2014-15 is an ETO. We're talking about the near future, and about them opting out to take a paycut - not talking about them re-signing after their deals end 3 offseasons from now.

Opting out and taking a paycut wouldn't allow them to sign a center. They're $25m over the cap and rising. Next offseason they're going to be looking at $72.5m just with the big 3, Miller, and Haslem. Bosh and Wade would have to take $5m+ cuts each just to get down to the cap, and they still wouldn't have money to spend.
Again, Bosh and Wade taking paycuts doesn't make any meaningful difference to the team in terms of its ability to sign guys or whatever - all it does is save the owner money. It's those guys giving money to Micky Arison. Nothing more.
The only effect it could have is that it gets them below the apron and thus allows them to get small S+Ts, or to use a slightly bigger MLE, but neither guy is taking a huge cut just to get some MLE-level C on the team.

Now, even if that weren't all the case my response is still "Well, okay? If you say so". There's just about no precedent for anything like that ever happening, and as far as I know none of the people involved have ever said that's a plan. What basis is there for anyone to believe this has even a remote chance of happening? Other than being a Miami fan and just wanting it to happen, of course.

Shlumpledink
06-10-2013, 10:16 PM
I'd do it if I were Miami, I wouldn't do it if I were Charlotte. Bosh is a nice player, but I think there is more potential for the future for charlotte, and that is where I think they should focus.

Tony_Starks
06-10-2013, 10:51 PM
I think the Big three will be together for at least a few more years. Riley is smart, he'll modify the surrounding cast but the core is good.

ryang
06-10-2013, 11:23 PM
There contracts end after the 2015 season. They can extend it one more year if they choose. If they all opt out after next year then Lebron gets a new deal , wade can take a massive paycut and bosh can sign a more reasonable deal. That would most definetly free up room for whatever the Heat need. Sure it's all speculation but wade has taken less before as well as Lebron. No reason to say they won't again. After they opt out next year and sign wade to a more reasonable contract don't forget who speculated it would happen. It's my two sence on the situation. IMO they all opt out after next year. Lebron gets the max , wade takes a massive paycut and bosh signs a reasonable deal or Riley shows him the door.

Reason as to why they would do it? So Mickey doesn't have to pay that luxury tax every year and we can add a legit center (not Hibert or a Dwight). Miller and ud come off the books and we can add more players wether you believe it or not. It's most definetly poss

ryang
06-10-2013, 11:29 PM
Wade signs a 3 year deal for about 6 to 8 a year. Bosh around 8 an Lebron whatever he wants. We can't add players after that? Sure we can. It's not as far fetched as you make it seem

c.c.
06-10-2013, 11:42 PM
Playing with the Bobcats will be good for him, he play so lazy with the Heat

bholly
06-10-2013, 11:43 PM
There contracts end after the 2015 season. They can extend it one more year if they choose. If they all opt out after next year then Lebron gets a new deal , wade can take a massive paycut and bosh can sign a more reasonable deal. That would most definetly free up room for whatever the Heat need. Sure it's all speculation but wade has taken less before as well as Lebron. No reason to say they won't again. After they opt out next year and sign wade to a more reasonable contract don't forget who speculated it would happen. It's my two sence on the situation. IMO they all opt out after next year. Lebron gets the max , wade takes a massive paycut and bosh signs a reasonable deal or Riley shows him the door.

Reason as to why they would do it? So Mickey doesn't have to pay that luxury tax every year and we can add a legit center (not Hibert or a Dwight). Miller and ud come off the books and we can add more players wether you believe it or not. It's most definetly poss

A contract that expires in 2015 with a player option to add an extra year, and a contract that expires in 2016 with a player option to remove a year, are exactly the same thing with different wording. In practice it technically expires in 2015 with the option to add an extra year, but there's no difference - we're still talking about Wade and Bosh opting not to renegotiate whether than to keep the existing deal.

Again, to get just to the cap level next offseason they'd need to cut $10m+ between them - and that's assuming you could ditch Anthony and that Chalmers, Allen, Battier and everyone else leaves. Then you need to cut even more to get the actual room to sign this 'legit center'.
They already gave up $6m to $7m per year between them to play together. Now you're talking about Wade and Bosh cutting another $10m plus the salary of a 'legit center' and whatever LeBron gets, all to replace Mario+Allen+Battier with whatever center is available.

It isn't happening. It's completely beyond anything that's ever come close to happening. It's a whole different scale to three guys each cutting similar amounts of salary. You're talking about two guys cutting almost half their salary. It's nuts, and the only way you can believe it is if you haven't looked at the numbers.

bholly
06-10-2013, 11:50 PM
Wade signs a 3 year deal for about 6 to 8 a year. Bosh around 8 an Lebron whatever he wants. We can't add players after that? Sure we can. It's not as far fetched as you make it seem

Didn't see this. Bosh and Wade re-signing for $8m would mean giving up $12.5m each in the first year, and about $14m the next. $25m+ each, over two years. That's beyond belief. I don't even think you really believe that.

Oh and, by the way, even if LBJ kept his current salary (it'd be even worse if he re-signed for a new max), Wade and Bosh signed for $6m and $8m respectively, Chalmers/Allen/Battier all walked, and they didn't sign any new picks, then between the big 3 and the three un-moveable contracts (Miller, Haslem, Anthony), and roster holds, they'd still have $57.6m in salaries. Cap is projected to be $58.5m this offseason, so let's be super generous and say it goes up to $62m next season.
Who's the legit center that you're signing for less than the MLE who Wade and Bosh are giving up $25m per year for?

ryang
06-11-2013, 12:25 AM
Not sure what center we would sign. But wade taking a massive paycut is not as crazy as you make it seem. Bosh has made it very clear he would rather win then make more money. It is a lot to give up and I don't see bosh doing after next year but the following year I see it happening. Millers contract is up after next year. Ray Allen's contract is next to nothing. As well as charmers. They take the cut so Mickey can afford it. You get charged by each dollar your over the cap meaning the smaller the number the less Mickey pays in luxury tax. Wade ha made more then enough money and 6 a year after all that isn't to bad.

Think outside the box. Weve never seen players do what they did in 2010. Who's to say they don't do it again in 2015? Wade will not get another max from anyone. We will see what bosh does but him making 8 to 10 a year is a real poss. Not saying this will happen just saying it isn't as unlikely as you believe. Wade 33? Max contract? Na. Bosh who knows but he's rather win and said he never wants to go back to losing. There not chasing money there chasing rings.

Tony_Starks
06-11-2013, 12:30 AM
Why are people acting like Miami is suddenly desperate for drastic changes? They can sign the K Marts and Stephen Jackson's of the world and be right back in the finals.

Look what happened with the Birdman who nobody wanted...

bholly
06-11-2013, 12:31 AM
Not sure what center we would sign. But wade taking a massive paycut is not as crazy as you make it seem. Bosh has made it very clear he would rather win then make more money. It is a lot to give up and I don't see bosh doing after next year but the following year I see it happening. Millers contract is up after next year. Ray Allen's contract is next to nothing. As well as charmers. They take the cut so Mickey can afford it. You get charged by each dollar your over the cap meaning the smaller the number the less Mickey pays in luxury tax. Wade ha made more then enough money and 6 a year after all that isn't to bad.

Think outside the box. Weve never seen players do what they did in 2010. Who's to say they don't do it again in 2015? Wade will not get another max from anyone. We will see what bosh does but him making 8 to 10 a year is a real poss. Not saying this will happen just saying it isn't as unlikely as you believe. Wade 33? Max contract? Na. Bosh who knows but he's rather win and said he never wants to go back to losing. There not chasing money there chasing rings.

You aren't talking about them doing 2010 again, or even anything like it. You're talking about something far far more.
You're talking about Wade giving up two thirds of his salary, and Bosh more than half of his - both giving up in excess of $25m - as well as losing a bunch of their team-mates, in order to save money for a billionaire and add a low to mid level C who you can't name yet.
And you're justifying it by saying 'well they already gave up almost 10% of their salary to play with their superstar best friends, why wouldn't they do this?'.

It's beyond absurd. I don't understand how you can't see that.

ryang
06-11-2013, 12:45 AM
I can. But your saying miller and Harlem an ray will be gone. They will be done In 2 years anyways. There not saving money for a billionaire. There gonna try and get better. 2015 is when there contracts expire. They won't sign one year deals in 2015. That's absurd. So you think wade and bosh are going to get close to the max in 2016? Or 2015? Hell no. Wade won't that's for show and maybe bosh just because there a dumb enough gms but wade won't be making 10+ a year in 2016 that's for sure.

Miller , Harlem, and ray Allen won't be good by then anyways. Miller hurts himself just walking and ray will be 40. Haslem took 15 to 20 million less to stay at age 29. That's gonna change when he is 34?? A lot of your points are flawed due to there ages. 3 years from now Haslem better be the only name left from those 3.

ryang
06-11-2013, 12:46 AM
Sure not show

bholly
06-11-2013, 01:32 AM
There not saving money for a billionaire.

You said yourself, "They take the cut so Mickey can afford it. You get charged by each dollar your over the cap meaning the smaller the number the less Mickey pays in luxury tax." Which part of that isn't saving money for a billionaire?


2015 is when there contracts expire. They won't sign one year deals in 2015. That's absurd.
The big 3? That's when they expire unless they pick up their player options. I'm saying the most likely thing is that they'll pick them up. You're saying that they'll turn down those and take significantly less. Who ever said anything about 1 year deals? We're talking about them picking up their options for 2015-16.


So you think wade and bosh are going to get close to the max in 2016? Or 2015? Hell no. Wade won't that's for show and maybe bosh just because there a dumb enough gms but wade won't be making 10+ a year in 2016 that's for sure.
No? I'm not saying anything about 2016 or their next contracts. I'm just talking about picking up the options on their current contracts (ie 2014-15 and 2015-16). I'm saying they'll more than likely pick them up, unless they decide to leave. You're saying they'll not pick them up, but will re-sign for huge paycuts in 2014 or 2015.
Nobody is talking about their value in 2016 or later. Just what they already could have on their current contracts vs dropping them and taking a huge paycut.


Miller , Harlem, and ray Allen won't be good by then anyways. Miller hurts himself just walking and ray will be 40. Haslem took 15 to 20 million less to stay at age 29. That's gonna change when he is 34?? A lot of your points are flawed due to there ages. 3 years from now Haslem better be the only name left from those 3.
What have I said that's flawed because of their ages? I'm not talking about re-signing them or anything like that. I'm talking about them still being under the contracts they've already signed.



Honestly, I think we're getting lost in the years here. I'm not saying anything about 2016 offseason or later.

You initially said you think they'll take massive paycuts after next season (ie 2014, heading into the 2014-15 season).
I said that they'll still have Miller, Haslem, Anthony under contract at that point (which has nothing to do with how old or good they are). Even if they cut the most possible salary from elsewhere (ie let Ray,Chalmers,Battier,etc walk) and cut Wade and Bosh unprecedented amounts (to $6m and $8m), and don't sign any new picks, AND the cap goes up a huge amount more than expected - in short, if they do everything possible to cut salary - then they could still only afford an MLE center.
If they want to re-sign Chalmers, or if they sign anyone this offseason for multiple years, or do anything other than the above, that only reduces the amount they can afford for a center.

I'm saying that that plan is patently ridiculous. Bosh and Wade aren't giving up that much money, and the ability to re-sign Chalmers or sign anyone new, just to add a low level center.

Any of the Big 3 could exercise their ETOs with the intention of leaving in 2014, sure. But I'm saying they won't do it with the intention of re-signing for less, because the amount they'd have to give up ($25m between Bosh and Wade, and the ability to sign Chalmers or anyone else) is ridiculous when all they get out of it is an MLE-level center.



Now let's talk about 2015 offseason, ie leading into 2015-16. At that point it's only Bosh/Wade/LBJ under contract, assuming they didn't sign anyone (eg Chalmers) for multiple years in 2014. The Big 3 are due a total of $68m if they pick up their player options, plus there's $4,725,837 in additional cap holds because they have only 3 players.
Now lets assume the cap goes up to $65m - ie a huge $6.5m jump from where it's projected to be this offseason.
In order to get down to the cap level, the Big 3 would need to cut almost $8m from their salaries, and then they'd have to cut even more to add anybody. To even get down to $10m in cap room they'd have to cut $18m between them. ie 3 times more than they already cut in 2010.
That's possible - maybe they really do want to just play together and forget about money. But that level of sacrifice is completely unprecedented - and it seems even more unlikely when, as you say, one is 33 and falling apart and they won't be able to afford any other supporting cast around them. Especially when another is a GOAT hopeful who could have a contender for max money anywhere else he wants.



Neither makes sense. In 2014 you're asking Bosh and Wade to give up $50m in guaranteed money over two years, and the ability to re-sign their PG and others in 2014, just to get down to the point where they can sign an MLE center.
In 2015, you're asking them to give up maybe $20m just to keep the 3 guys together with $10m in supporting cast.

The 2014 scenario is ridiculous, and I expect there isn't even a single other Heat fan on here who things it's plausible. The 2015 scenario could maybe happen if your dreams come true, but it's far more likely they either decide to break it up, or keep on their current salaries and stay above the tax.

KnokOut
06-11-2013, 01:41 AM
People saying this draft is weak are clueless. There aren't any huge stars, but there are quite a few solid players. Pope, Pressey, Porter and Dieng all should be good picks IMO.

This, as far as regarding people saying this draft is weak is clueless.

Just because there isn't a KD/LBJ does not mean it's a weak class. Lot of good talents that should be very quality players.

I don't think this makes sense for Charlotte. Keep the rebuild going and get another solid young player to continue the rebuild with. Not sure why you'd go away from that.

Kashmir13579
06-11-2013, 02:01 AM
Won't happen.

ryang
06-11-2013, 02:06 AM
I really don't want to read all that and I didn't. What I'm saying is come 2015 they will sign longer deals. Stars don't pick up a 1 year option when they can sign a multi year deal. Why? I don't know injury , being smart. 2015 will be when those 3 get new contracts if not after 2014. It's not crazy to thing wade will take less then what he'd make in 2015 or 2016 for more years when it's obvious the days of being a superstar will most likely be over. Bosh won't sign a 1 year deal. It's my opinion. So after the 2015 season I believe wade will sign a 3 year deal for significantly less. Bosh we will see. I hope ray,miller etc Etc are gone for the good of the team. You'll see come 2015. Not sure what is confusing you.

ryang
06-11-2013, 02:09 AM
They will always be above the tax IMO. Just not due to 3 contracts come 2015. 2014 is my pipe dream. 2015 wade bosh and Lebron will all get new contracts regardless of there value. My opinion is that wade after 2015 will be making significantly less. Bosh to if he wants to stay. Not as much money lost for bosh but not 12 a year either. Like I said make the tax lower to add more players. Mickey is fine paying it from what we here. I just see wade understanding where he will be 2 seasons from now.

naps
06-11-2013, 02:10 AM
Who are you? I wasn't even a LeBron fan until he came to Miami. I realized how great he was and truly admired his game. You don't know what you're talking about. Miami could free up Bosh and solve their issue in grabbing someone who can rebound. Bosh can't rebound and they will lose against the Pacers next year. Pacers exploited them this season, terribly. I never said Miami should. I'm just saying it wouldn't be a bad move if they were trying to clear cap space and grab someone who can actually solve their #1 issue. Go to school before you quote me.

Doesn't matter how you try to mask yourself. By this point everyone, who's familiar with your posts, knows who you actually are a fan of.

ryang
06-11-2013, 02:13 AM
If not who cares. I just stated my opinion and it is a stretch never said it wasn't. It's my believe after 2015 wade takes a paycut (significant) bosh will get less. It's also never been done before because there is a new cba. They might just try and beat it. Again it's an opinion

naps
06-11-2013, 02:14 AM
Wade signs a 3 year deal for about 6 to 8 a year. Bosh around 8 an Lebron whatever he wants. We can't add players after that? Sure we can. It's not as far fetched as you make it seem

I think Wade's gonna make around $40 million for his last 2 years. So you are telling me he would opt out to take around $16 million instead? You are crazy man. Giving up a few millions when you signed up for $100+ million deal is one thing, and giving up 70% of your salary is another. No one is gonna do it.

bholly
06-11-2013, 02:24 AM
Well in your first posts you were clearly talking about next offseason, ie 2014, where most of my objection came from. It's ridiculous to think Wade and Bosh would take enough salary cuts (ie $50m in guaranteed salary) just to get a low-level C. That's what doing it in 2014 would mean. It isn't happening.

In 2015, you're still talking about Wade taking 3 years at $6-8m, so let's call it $21m in total, instead of picking up his 2015-16 option ($21,655,000 just for that year). Similar for Bosh.
When a player takes lower annual salaries over more years it's generality for security of total earnings - they get more money in total. You're talking about taking less money over 3 than they would've gotten in 1. That isn't security, it's just sacrifice.
It's the only way they could stay together and with a decent supporting cast in 2015-16 and beyond, but that level of sacrifice from players of that age (33 for Wade, 31 for Bosh) would be completely unprecedented. You can believe that's going to happen if you like, but only if you're willingly basing your beliefs on wishful thinking. You can't expect to come into a forum and convince other people to believe in your wishful thinking, though.

bholly
06-11-2013, 02:27 AM
They will always be above the tax IMO. Just not due to 3 contracts come 2015. 2014 is my pipe dream. 2015 wade bosh and Lebron will all get new contracts regardless of there value. My opinion is that wade after 2015 will be making significantly less. Bosh to if he wants to stay. Not as much money lost for bosh but not 12 a year either. Like I said make the tax lower to add more players. Mickey is fine paying it from what we here. I just see wade understanding where he will be 2 seasons from now.

Wait, what? If you're above the tax, you can't add more players. If they cut $10m between them, but the team is still above the tax, it doesn't get them anything except less money.
That's what I was saying right at the start - unless they're cutting so much that they get below the tax and add guys, then all their pay cuts are doing is giving money to Arison.

ryang
06-11-2013, 03:32 AM
Again 2015 when THERE contracts are up they will all sign long term deals. Could be with the Heat maybe not. My opinion is Wade will take a lot less money. Bosh has to if not he could be moved. Lebron hopefully he resigns with Miami. Miller and ray will retire. Charmers? I don't know you do? His contract is up as well. You keep talking about the tax but facts are after the 2015 season we don't have many contracts left in the books. Research it. I said they will opt put after next year? Yea. It would be in Lebrons best interest to. Get another max. Your saying all 3 will take close to the max after the 2015 season. I think that's ******** for them and for you to say. We can go back and forth but no one is right until that season ends. You'll I guess understand when it happens. Not sure how your confused. Research it. Pay attention to what you read. Don't just read the punch line. See you 2016. Try and remeber

bholly
06-11-2013, 03:48 AM
I'm not saying they're going to sign maxes in 2016, or 2015, or anything like that. I haven't said a single thing about their future contracts being big. I'm saying in the 2015 offseason, Wade has the option on his current contract to pick up his 2015-16 player option for $21.5m and then be an FA in 2016. He is unlikely to turn that down to take $20m total over 3 years just so they can sign some scrubs. Same with Bosh.
Again, I'm not - and have never been - talking about them signing new contracts. I'm just talking about the known value of contracts that they already have.

I only mentioned the tax when you mentioned it by saying they'll always be above it. If that's the case, why would they ever take cuts except to save Arison money?

Just to clarify: when you say "I said they will opt put after next year? Yea. It would be in Lebrons best interest to." you are talking about opting out at the end of the 2013-14 season, right? So opting out in 2014?

ryang
06-11-2013, 04:46 AM
For Lebron wade and bosh it is in there best interest to opt out after next year. Wade IMO will never make 21 mill in one year (your saying 2016). If Lebron makes 14, bosh makes 8 and wade makes 6 a year after 2015 why would we be over the cap? Miller will be gone by then. Ray gone. Haslem (new contract he left 20 mill on the Table 3 years ago). Charmers wil have a new deal or be gone. Battier most likely gone. Role players aren't the question here. How is it hard to believe 2 years from now wade signs a smaller deal? If he wants that player option for 2016 I'd be shocked as well as many others. They won't sign one year deals. It's the same as a franchise tag in football. A veteran doesn't want a one year deal and there are many reasons for that.

Again there is no point arguing. Not sure your understanding the actuall situation come 2015.

ryang
06-11-2013, 04:52 AM
With the new cap rules. You'd be surprised if wade didn't take his 21 million dollar option? You are obviously just reading stats and cap situations on the Internet. Wade Lebron Mickey etc etc are a lot closer then that. Wade wouldn't take that and expect Lebron and him to win anything. Pretty sure you can see that.

bholly
06-11-2013, 05:00 AM
Picking up the 2015-16 player option isn't signing a one-year deal! I don't know what part of that you don't understand. Wade's CURRENT deal has a player option for $21,655,000 for the 2015-16 season. All he has to do is say he wants it.
It isn't about me saying he'll be worth $21m then or that he'll be able to get a one year contract for that much. I'm telling you that's already part of his deal - the option of $21m for playing in the 2015-16 season.



Every post you seem to be inconsistent with what years you're talking about, and I think that might be where the confusion is coming from, so let me clear it up:

'This year' or 'This season' = 2012-13 season.
'This offseason' = 2013 offseason.
'Next year' or 'Next season' = 2013-14 season.
'Next year' or 'Next offseason' = 2014 offseason.
'2014-15' = 2014-15 season.
'2015' = 2015 offseason.
'2015-16' = 2015-16 season.
'2016' = 2016 offseason.

Are we agreed on that?

Again, when you say "it is in their best interest opt out after next year" you are saying opt out in the summer of 2014 (one year from now) while they're putting together their 2014-15 roster, right?

bholly
06-11-2013, 05:20 AM
If Lebron makes 14, bosh makes 8 and wade makes 6 a year after 2015 why would we be over the cap?

You mean if they did this in the 2015 offseason, so those are their salaries for the 2015-16 season?

Well of course they wouldn't be over the cap if they did that. But before you were talking about LBJ 'getting another max', which I didn't realize meant dropping to $14m. You're also talking about the three of them giving up a combined $37,880,000 that year compared to what they'd get if they just picked up their 2015-16 player options. And that's just for that one year. You seriously believe they'd give up that much?

ryang
06-11-2013, 12:03 PM
I see them after the 2015 season all signing new deals if they haven't opted out after next season. So say they sign new deals after 2015 which I fully expect they will do then yes. I see Wade after another 2 full seasons signing a mediocre contract. I don't see them taking there player options which regardless of how you word it would be a 1 year deal. I see bosh making around 8 a year. Ten at most. Then Lebron. Not sure what he will get.

If they decline there 2016 options. That means they give up one year yet sign a multi year deal. That's what pretty much every athlete in America would do. I understand your saying in 2016 that's a big number to drop but I can guarantee you without guessing not one of them will take that deal. Not sure any athlete would unless 2016 was there last year. After 2015 they will all sign new deals. It's my beleive that wade will make a lot less and bosh will have to take some sort of paycut.

bholly
06-11-2013, 05:57 PM
Okay, it's clear now you're just using a super weird and ambiguous system to describe years, which is why it's hard to know what you're talking about. I'm not going to keep going back and forward when you aren't going to even try to be clear about things - and especially when it all just comes down to you being delusional about how much money they'll give up anyway.

In the 2014 offseason (building for the 2014-15 season) any of them could opt out to leave (esp LBJ or Bosh), particularly if it looks like Arison can't afford to keep them together. They could also opt out to get longer contracts for more security (especially Wade), but the whole point would be to make more money overall - Wade isn't going to take $8m per year, or $32m over 4 years, when just picking up his option would give him $42m over two years. That misses the whole point of getting more years for security. The point is to secure your total earnings, not to secure years of working.
There's also no chance that they take less in order to make cap room - between them they'd have to sacrifice insane amount - about $20m per year between them PLUS whatever it costs to get the new additions and re-sign any expiring guys. It's an order of magnitude more than anything that's ever happened before.

In the 2015 offseason (building for the 2015-26 season) opting out to re-sign for more years becomes even more likely - probably more likely than not, esp for Wade and Bosh. Again, though, it isn't going to be close to the discounts you're talking about. Wade isn't going to take $32m over 4 years when he has $21.6m over one year just sitting there. There's no way he thinks his value decreases from a $32m contract in the 2015 offseason to an $11m contract or less in the next offseason. That's delusional. LBJ is only 30 at this point, and would be expecting another max in 2016, so it's tough to see him doing a security move for any real discount. Bosh is more likely, but still wouldn't for a major discount.
It's also possible they take discounts for cap room, if it's only the three of them left at that point - it would be pretty much the same situation as 2010 with much bigger discounts. We're talking $10m per year more between them just to get to the cap level, so it's super unlikely - but it's possible if Wade's already giving up some of that to get more years.


Overall, most of what you've said (eg them opting out next offseason and taking less to make cap room, or them signing for $6m, $8m, and $14m per year in any of the next two offseasons) is completely ridiculous - to the extent that you won't find a single other Miami fan on here who thinks it's plausible. You're going to be disappointed if you really believe those things are going to happen. Good luck, though.

ryang
06-11-2013, 06:36 PM
Again it's my opinion. They aren't opting out in 2015. That's when there contracts expire. They won't basically place a franchise tag in themselves for 2016. I know you don't see wade dropping his 21 million dollar option but he will have to if he wants Lebron to stay. Bosh is a different story. I said Riley would have a decision to make. IMO Riley will say around 10 a year. If not bosh can go that's fine with me. Or he can pick up his so called option and we can then trade him , amnesty or let him play one more year. Lebron can have whatever he wants and I'm sure Riley feels the same seeings how he can't just be replaced.

I never said they will all take massive paycuts I said I think they will. People who hate this team will be disappointed when wade takes that 4 year 30 mill dollar contract. But IMO he most definetly will. Bosh again he won't get the max from Riley when he didn't even get it in 2010. Lebron again can have what he wants. Ray, battier, miller all those guys will be retired after another 2 full seasons. Yes Riley will have to find those guys again.

If you have a question just ask it. Not sure what years I'm saying are confusing you

bholly
06-11-2013, 07:27 PM
I've asked three or four times for you to clarify what years you're talking about.

The problem is you refer to seasons as years - ie you refer to the 2014-15 season as '2015', at least I think that's what you're doing, which makes sense when you're just talking about finals or whatever, but is the opposite of what people do when talking about offseasons.

For example "they aren't opting out in 2015. That's when their contracts expire". No, they expire in the 2016 offseason, ie after the 2015-16 season, unless they opt out earlier. Unless by '2015' you mean 'the 2015-16 season', in which case a bunch of other things don't make sense - eg you saying Wade making $21m in his last year as being 2016.
Sometimes sentences are inconsistent with themselves - eg "2015 will be when those 3 get new contracts if not after 2014." Um, 2015 is after 2014. There's nothing in between.

You're also just wildly inconsistent from post to post. One time you're talking about LBJ "can have what he wants" and "getting another max", whereas when you need the numbers to add up you're saying he'll sign for $14m. You're talking about Bosh for $8m, then saying Riley will offer him $10m. You say "come 2015 they will sign longer deals" but also "They aren't opting out in 2015", as if that's possible. It just doesn't make any sense from post to post - you pick what part works with whichever other parts you're using in that post, but you've never put forward a clear plan that actually fits together consistently.

Look, no offense, but you're just not approaching this the same way I am. You're just throwing out a bunch of ideas without ever thinking specifically about any point in time, looking at the actual incentives and numbers, and seeing whether it makes sense or works. I'm actually taking the time to add things up and see what works. Nothing you've said so far, once you actually look at the numbers, works - except for them all taking completely unrealistic paycuts or one of them leaving.

It's sort of like talking Xs and Os with someone whose plays all end up needing a 6th guy, and who at that point just imagines one of the other guys from earlier in the play isn't there anymore and doesn't understand the problem. It just isn't worth carrying on.

But seriously, good luck. If they pull off any of the impossible things you're talking about, I'll be super impressed.

ryang
06-11-2013, 08:54 PM
I was trying to say after 2 more seasons. Next year and the one after. Once those seasons are done.
Wade will sign a smaller contract. Bosh will do the same but not as big of a paycut. Lebron won't take the full max but close to it.

They also could all opt out after next season has been completed. Regardless of the numbers they can opt out and it's a real poss they do so. If they do that wade will still sign a smaller contract. Bosh might as well. That's definetly a poss. The numbers I throw out are ballpark seeings how everything I say I me speculating what they will do.

Your going to be surprised one way or the other IMO. They will take less especially wade. Only way to know is to sit back and wait for 2 full seasons to pass.

NBA_Starter
06-11-2013, 08:59 PM
It doesn't really make sense either way.

bholly
06-11-2013, 09:24 PM
Cool, that's a bit clearer.


I was trying to say after 2 more seasons. Next year and the one after. Once those seasons are done.
Wade will sign a smaller contract. Bosh will do the same but not as big of a paycut. Lebron won't take the full max but close to it.

So that's the 2015 offseason. It's probably likely they opt out by then, but it won't be for anything like the numbers you suggest. eg Wade taking 4 years at $32m total, ie $8m per year, is an insane expectation when he could just pick up his option for $21m over 1 more year then be an FA. He isn't going to expect his value to decline that much in one year for it to be worth it.
As I said, they could collectively agree that season to give up money to get cap flexibility - but we're talking about $10m (probably more like $13-$15m) in cuts just to get down to the cap, so to get just $5m in cap room they'd have to be taking $15m-$20m in cuts between them. Plus even more if there are already others - eg Chalmers - on the roster. That's a huge amount, and you can't really expect it of them. Can't rule it out entirely, but there's absolutely no evidence to suggest they'd make that level of sacrifice - what they did in 2010 isn't even close.

They could of course opt out that year in order to sign big new contracts or leave. That makes much more sense, especially for LBJ.


They also could all opt out after next season has been completed. Regardless of the numbers they can opt out and it's a real poss they do so. If they do that wade will still sign a smaller contract. Bosh might as well. That's definetly a poss. The numbers I throw out are ballpark seeings how everything I say I me speculating what they will do.

So that's the 2014 offseason. Yes, they could opt out, but it would definitely be to get new big contracts (because a 4 year contract for $65m to $80m gives them more earnings security than two years left at $45m), or to leave. There's no chance at all that they do it in order to get cap space. You can say 'regardless of the numbers' all you like, but they'd have to give up $20m+ per year going forward, plus whatever cap room they need to clear, and that's far too much to be realistic. They aren't giving up $25m per year for several years just to get room for a $5m center.


Your going to be surprised one way or the other IMO. They will take less especially wade. Only way to know is to sit back and wait for 2 full seasons to pass.

I don't think I am. But yup, only way to know is to wait and see.

ryang
06-11-2013, 09:53 PM
You look at it as they leave 20 mill on the table. I don't beleive that's how wade will see it. Sorry I just don't. I see him wanting to win. It's just my opinion. Wade took 18 mill of his contract in 2010. I see the same in the future

bholly
06-11-2013, 10:08 PM
He took off $18m spread over 6 years in order to be able to play with his superstar best friends.

Now you're talking about him taking off $12m to $14m PER YEAR in order to add a few low-salary players and/or save a billionaire money.

You aren't seeing the same in the future - you're seeing a whole lot more sacrifice for a whole lot less reason.

ryang
06-11-2013, 10:15 PM
Your not understanding me. Wade took that cut in his prime. His prime will most definetly be gone 2 seasons from now. And your right Save Mickey money. Mickeybhas no problem spending over the cap. The closer we get to the cap the more flexibility we have. Have you seen what he'd pay in tax come 2016?? We can't add people after that. But if we get below the cap or close to it we can add what we want considering who would be left besides the big 3 come 2 years from now? Nobody. Laugh now but in 2 years wade won't be making 10 mill a year or more IMO.

ryang
06-11-2013, 10:16 PM
To bad we have to wait 2 years for my opinion to take shape. Looking forward to it.

ryang
06-11-2013, 10:19 PM
You under estimate wade and this organizations relationships with its players. Wade at 33 will take a pay cut and a massive one at that. Your looking at numbers not the structure of our organization or our players desire to play together and compete year in and year out. If these guys want 10+ a year after 2015 we won't win. They know that.

bholly
06-11-2013, 10:30 PM
What does him being worse now have to do with how much money he's willing to sacrifice? If anything, the fact that he's out of his prime and thus has less earnings ahead of him should mean the money is more important to him.

Also:
"The closer we get to the cap the more flexibility we have." and "But if we get below the cap or close to it we can add what we want".
Those are just not true in this context.

If you get below the tax apron (which itself would take significant cuts if you want to do it next year) you can receive S+Ts - except you have nothing to offer beyond the Big 3 - and you can use the BAE (just over $2m) and the bigger MLE (just over $5m, compared to the taxpayer MLE of just over $3m).
Neither of those things allow you to add whatever you want, and beyond those two things cutting salary has no significant effect on your flexibility unless it actually gets you under the cap. Getting 'closer to the cap' doesn't do anything except for getting those exceptions when you go under the apron.
Unless you get seriously under the cap - which just isn't realistic - then you aren't going to be able to add any real talent, unless you move one of the Big 3. Hard to see the Big 3 give up so much for so little.

bholly
06-11-2013, 10:32 PM
You under estimate wade and this organizations relationships with its players. Wade at 33 will take a pay cut and a massive one at that. Your looking at numbers not the structure of our organization or our players desire to play together and compete year in and year out. If these guys want 10+ a year after 2015 we won't win. They know that.

That's possible, but there's no evidence for anything like the level of sacrifices you're talking about. You're seeing that structure and those relationships and possibilities because you want them to be there - there's no evidence of anything like that to an unbiased observer.

ryang
06-11-2013, 10:38 PM
You'll understand come 2016. I still don't understand what your missing as far as the cap. If nobody is under contract then wade, bosh take a cut. Guess what were under the cap. Wade will not make 20 mill in 2016. You can count on that. So he will take close to the max again when he is due for a new contract? Not a chance in hell.

bholly
06-11-2013, 10:59 PM
You mean in the 2015 offseason, building for the 2015-16 season, right?

I'm not missing anything. I've said several times that it's possible they take a cut that offseason - just nothing like to the $6m and $8m levels you're talking about. Maybe Bosh and Wade will give up enough to get cap room that summer. But we're talking about them giving up a tonne of money that year - $10m or so just to get down to the cap level, plus however much cap room they need to clear (plus whatever else they have counting towards the cap - maybe Chalmers, etc). I've said that's possible, but it's too much to expect. In particular, it's hard to see that as being the best option available to the Heat.
Most of all, it's not so likely that you can come into a thread about trading Bosh - which would probably be a better option - and expect other people to expect it, ie "These threads are a waste of time. Bosh for the 4th? Not many people know Riley to well."

I believe it's possible, and it's totally your prerogative to believe it's very likely - but you need to recognize that that belief is driven by the fact that you want it to happen, and you can't expect other people to just jump on board with that and not talk about other possibilities.
And you certainly can't expect people to jump on board with the ridiculous $6m and $8m pipe dreams you were talking about for much of the thread.

ryang
06-11-2013, 11:09 PM
Don't need you to jump on board. It's not even close to a pipe dream imo

bholly
06-11-2013, 11:12 PM
Wade signing for $6m per year, and Bosh signing for $8m per year, when they have $21.7m and $22.1m player options just sitting there, is a pipe dream.
They could negotiate an amount that gets them a bit of cap room, sure, but that big of a drop off is a pipe dream.

ryang
06-11-2013, 11:14 PM
I've said it before. Bosh needs to take a pay cut or Riley just might show him the door. Wade that's far from a pipe dream. He won't make 10 mill a year 2 seasons from now regardless of his player option

ryang
06-11-2013, 11:17 PM
There player options. Wade won't take that. Bosh might but Riley might say screw you your traded or amnestied. Stop looking at the player options. I'm sure you have no clue about wade or Riley or the heat organization but none of the big 3 will take there player options. You'll see my friend.

bholly
06-11-2013, 11:19 PM
And, again, you have nothing really to base that on except your beliefs about their relationship - which the only reason for believing is that you want to believe it.

ryang
06-11-2013, 11:26 PM
Or what they did in 2010. Say wade walks in Riley's door and says hey I'm taking my player option. Riley will laugh and either trade him or amnesty him but wade won't do that. Your speculating the same non sence when wade has already left big money on the table regardless of how many years it was its still 18 million right? You laugh about it. But wade won't make big money on his next contract from the heat or anyone else for that matter and he won't pick up his option. Imo

bholly
06-11-2013, 11:36 PM
Again with the false equivalence. They are very very different things.

Leaving $18m on the table when he's in his prime, probably hoping to get another contract afterwards, and might even figure he can opt out and get more in 4 years, all so that he can play with his superstar best friends, does not prove that 4 years later when he's past his prime he'd give up substantially more to make small improvements to the roster.
It's enough to make fans who want it to happen believe it will happen, but it isn't enough to prove it'll happen - or even make it likely.

G-Menfan4lyfe
06-11-2013, 11:43 PM
What if Dwight decides he's going to walk from LA and the Heat offer Bosh for Dwight in a S&T deal? I'd think LA would have to take that deal rather than lose Dwight and get 0 in return.

bholly
06-11-2013, 11:54 PM
What if Dwight decides he's going to walk from LA and the Heat offer Bosh for Dwight in a S&T deal? I'd think LA would have to take that deal rather than lose Dwight and get 0 in return.

First problem is MIA can't accept players in S+T if it leaves them above the apron, and they're going to be like $10m over going into the offseason. LAL can't take back all that extra, so MIA would have to find a way to dump a bunch of salary first.

Assuming they could, LAL would def have to prefer that to Dwight walking - especially if they think it means a better chance at luring LBJ in 2014.
Problems are that 1) I'm not sure at this point how Dwight would feel about going and replacing someone on an established team and being an unquestioned 2nd or 3rd option - remember that at the point where LAL are willing to S+T him he can go to almost any team he wants that can absorb him - and 2) I'm not sure Miami would do it and risk annoying LBJ by replacing his friend with Dwight.

koreancabbage
06-12-2013, 12:01 AM
Wade really needs to change up his contract or restructure it. over the course of 10 years.

If he wants to stay with the Heat, and continue to win championships, he will also need to play as the 6th man, Heat can't afford to have half a player making the max - shell of himself. he has definitely fallen off the map. Bosh is a key guy and will probably need to make a conscious effort to be more assertive on offense moving forward.

Heat will need a decent C moving forward.

G-Menfan4lyfe
06-12-2013, 01:18 AM
First problem is MIA can't accept players in S+T if it leaves them above the apron, and they're going to be like $10m over going into the offseason. LAL can't take back all that extra, so MIA would have to find a way to dump a bunch of salary first.

Assuming they could, LAL would def have to prefer that to Dwight walking - especially if they think it means a better chance at luring LBJ in 2014.
Problems are that 1) I'm not sure at this point how Dwight would feel about going and replacing someone on an established team and being an unquestioned 2nd or 3rd option - remember that at the point where LAL are willing to S+T him he can go to almost any team he wants that can absorb him - and 2) I'm not sure Miami would do it and risk annoying LBJ by replacing his friend with Dwight.

I thought with a S+T you can swap players as long as the salaries are within 10% even if you're over the cap?

Or did the new CBA change things?

bholly
06-12-2013, 01:26 AM
Starting next season (2013-14) you can't take players in a S+T if it leaves you above the apron ($4m above the tax level) - regardless of whether the salaries match or whatever.

The apron was $74.307m this season, and it'll go up a million or so next season.

That's why Dwight can't get to the Nets unless they cut serious salary.

stlbest5in2013
06-12-2013, 01:48 AM
This draft is weak.. Really not worth it for Miami. Should trade Bosh for a big like Demarcus Cousins.


LOL Kings would be getting ripped off by a country mile.




Earth to everyone, everyone come in.


Bosh is not worth a lotto pick period.

Just like Chalmers is a horrible PG aided by having James around to carry him.

But this could still happen because MJ is MJ

bholly
06-12-2013, 02:32 AM
Earth to everyone, everyone come in.


Bosh is not worth a lotto pick period.

He's a 29 year old 8x All Star (5x before he went to Miami) who was a perennial 20/10 guy before he sacrificed stats to play with his friends.

Yes he's worth a lotto pick. Have you seen how bad most lotto picks are?

Even the 4th pick - in a draft like this chances are pretty good you're getting a Wesley Johnson or Tyrus Thomas type of #4 pick rather than the Chris Paul or Russel Westbrook type.

For many teams - and I'd agree Charlotte are one of them - they'd be better off keeping a high pick, but "Bosh is not worth a lotto pick" is laughably wrong.

stlbest5in2013
06-12-2013, 09:27 PM
He's a 29 year old 8x All Star (5x before he went to Miami) who was a perennial 20/10 guy before he sacrificed stats to play with his friends.

Yes he's worth a lotto pick. Have you seen how bad most lotto picks are?

Even the 4th pick - in a draft like this chances are pretty good you're getting a Wesley Johnson or Tyrus Thomas type of #4 pick rather than the Chris Paul or Russel Westbrook type.

For many teams - and I'd agree Charlotte are one of them - they'd be better off keeping a high pick, but "Bosh is not worth a lotto pick" is laughably wrong.



That all star crap is literally that, crap.

Boozer and Deng have been all stars, so you are saying the Bulls can get lotto picks whenever they want for both of them in separate deals?

h2r09
06-12-2013, 09:30 PM
That all star crap is literally that, crap.

Boozer and Deng have been all stars, so you are saying the Bulls can get lotto picks whenever they want for both of them in separate deals?

Neither of them are close to 8x allstars. You dont luck into 8 all star games.

bholly
06-12-2013, 10:06 PM
That all star crap is literally that, crap.

Boozer and Deng have been all stars, so you are saying the Bulls can get lotto picks whenever they want for both of them in separate deals?

Well, they might be able to, I don't know. Prob not Boozer because he's overpaid relative to his value, but Deng is worth a lotto pick, depending on the team giving it up and how high it is.

I don't see your point, though. I wasn't saying "make an All Star game and you're automatically worth a lotto pick". I was saying "Chris Bosh is worth a lotto pick, and here are some of the accolades I think you'll understand (seeing as you obviously suck at evaluating him based on watching him) to convince you of that point".
I lied - I do see your point, it's just wrong.

Also look up what 'literally' means.

lakersfan01
06-12-2013, 10:10 PM
Bosh is garbage!

Phenomenonsense
06-12-2013, 11:57 PM
Neither of them are close to 8x allstars. You dont luck into 8 all star games.

That's right, you POPULAR into them.

Phenomenonsense
06-13-2013, 12:01 AM
****ing Heat "fans" tried proposing Monroe and #8 for Bosh and trash. Monroe would go #1 in a draft this uncertain and terrible, and I wouldn't trade the #4 in this draft for Bosh who can opt out after a 1 year rental, to pay him 14ish more million dollars than a rookie deal with guaranteed help for 5 years on a low salary. Bosh isn't worth a damn to a lottery team. Who cares if you have one player ready to play on a contending team if the rest of your team isn't even ready for the playoffs?

unleashthebeast
06-13-2013, 12:26 AM
That's right, you POPULAR into them.

Right, because being an all star reserve is totally based off of popularity, and not by the knowledgable coaches....

Rndy
06-13-2013, 12:33 AM
For obvious reasons this is a bad deal for Miami. But it's not that great for CHA either. They get a good # 2 option player that would probably make them good enough to not get a future number 1 pick in a better draft that could be a superstar type player

And for selfish reasons I need CHA to continue to suck badly for a few more years. Thank you Tyrus Thomas!

Phenomenonsense
06-13-2013, 02:06 AM
Right, because being an all star reserve is totally based off of popularity, and not by the knowledgable coaches....

Yep, established names with no business in Allstar games based off of current production never make it in right? And I bet Andre Drummond deserved to be below Barnes (ignoring his improved play in the playoffs) and Waiters on the All Rookie teams. "Everything that happens to my team is fair and just." Sounds like a "Heat" fan.

unleashthebeast
06-13-2013, 02:31 AM
Yep, established names with no business in Allstar games based off of current production never make it in right? And I bet Andre Drummond deserved to be below Barnes (ignoring his improved play in the playoffs) and Waiters on the All Rookie teams. "Everything that happens to my team is fair and just." Sounds like a "Heat" fan.

Man if you honestly think that bosh didn't deserve his all star appearances than there is honestly mo reason to continue this conversation.

And yeah I am a "Heat" fan. Have been since 2003. Through the good and the bad. So I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.