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View Full Version : Dennis Rodman says LeBron would be an average player in 80s and 90s.



Longhornfan1234
06-07-2013, 12:24 PM
http://nba.si.com/2013/06/07/dennis-rodman-lebron-james-michael-jordan/


Dennis Rodman doesn’t put any stock in the comparisons between Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

“If LeBron was playing in the late ’80s or early ’90s,” Rodman said, “he’d be just an average player.”

Rodman went on to tell The Dan Patrick Show in an interview that aired Friday that LeBron is “a great player, a helluva player,” but the Hall of Fame rebounding ace said Jordan dominated a much tougher era in leading the Bulls to six titles in the 1990s.


“If Michael played today … really? If he played the game today at 28 years old, he would average 40 points a game, probably more,” said Rodman, who won three titles as Jordan’s teammate with Chicago.

RaiderLakersA's
06-07-2013, 12:29 PM
It was certainly a much more physical era, and there was no shortage of quick, big men in the league back then. I wouldn't say "average," but LeBron would have far more knots and welts on his head than he does presently.

D-Leethal
06-07-2013, 12:32 PM
Most players from the 80s and 90s say that. Doesn't make it remotely close to true.

BklynKnicks3
06-07-2013, 12:33 PM
rodman is high on something. If lebron played in the 80s hed probably join the pistons lakers or celtics

waveycrockett
06-07-2013, 12:33 PM
The defense was on another level in the 80's and 90's.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2013, 12:34 PM
He would be a great player, but his inflated stats wouldn't exist. He would also still be a perennial loser.

JasonJohnHorn
06-07-2013, 12:36 PM
Well... I think Rodman makes an interesting point, but fails to consider some things. Most teams, most coaches, will not implement a system where any player averages 40 points a game. It's bad for the team. That said, Jordan would have an easier time scoring today, that is for sure. Also, there are fewer possessions and lower scoring games now.

As for LBJ in the 80s/90s, it would be different for him, that is certain. Rodman likely sees the fact that LBJ has 1 ring during his era and Jordan had 6 as the deciding factor, but those rings, or lack there of, are about situations, not individuals.

The late 80's early 90's was the golden age of the NBA. It will be a while before there are so many great players again. A guy like Larry Nance was considered above-average then. Today he would be the best power forward in the league. LBJ though, for a SF, has size that NO SF in the league had then. He would be so much more physical than any other SF in the league. I believe LBJ would do just as well or better. He'd likely be given more minutes and with more possessions, he'd likely have higher averages.


LBJ would be among the elite in the NBA regardless of which generation he played in, and this is coming from somebody who LOVED the late 80s/90s era NBA.

8kobe24
06-07-2013, 12:36 PM
Not sure about leflop being average, maybe above average...but I know his flops won't work to his advantage. Matter of fact, players from that era might get a little more "physical" if he starts flopping.

sunnyice
06-07-2013, 01:01 PM
Not sure about leflop being average, maybe above average...but I know his flops won't work to his advantage. Matter of fact, players from that era might get a little more "physical" if he starts flopping.

You don't have any clue about the 90's era. Rodman was one of the biggest flopper in the league. If you want I can point you to watch some games. Not taking anything away from rodman. He is one of the greatest rebounder ever.

Chitownhero1992
06-07-2013, 01:03 PM
I tend to agree with him. I wouldn't be average, he'd be an all-star on some years and not on others but he wouldn't be a superstar. Defense was so much better and more physical back then, he wouldn't have been the same player in that era then he is in todays game.

Players like Rodman and Pippen hell Clyde and others would be able to easily defend a guy like James. Close off his drive and make him shoot the entire time, Rodman would get into his head so fast that James would do start to play selfish.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 01:06 PM
I came across this again today, its crazy how did you find this? I brushed it off because I thought this was old news, did he say it again?

Rodman is off his meds tho. Bron in an era that was fast breaking non stop, with fouls being handed left and right, and trying to be defended by the frail small forwards who played in that era (imagine Alex English trying to check Bron).... lols

Chronz
06-07-2013, 01:14 PM
Players like Rodman and Pippen hell Clyde and others would be able to easily defend a guy like James.

According to Screaming A Smith, Scottie admits he wouldnt have been able to check Bron, hes also told Alonzo Mourning that Bron would have smoked MJ, he was prolly being modest/resentful but to go from that to EASILY defending James, thats when your vendetta is exposed IMO. Guarding James isnt more difficult in an era with inferior athletes, no zone, and an up and down league. Every league has its advantages/disadvantages, to act like legendary players would be radically inferior because of a span of like 15 years of evolution is nonsensical.

It takes an ENTIRE TEAM to check LeBron.

Jint.
06-07-2013, 01:17 PM
poo poo Rodman

Minimal
06-07-2013, 01:18 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that LeBron would be the best player in 80s and 90s? It feels like this old guys just try to defend themselves by ******** on LeBron. I expect no other. Fact is LeBron is the strongest and most athletical player in NBA history, how the **** can he be "average" in 80s and 90s? Noone would be able to guard LeBron in that era, same as in this era.

Its the same as old grandmas sitting on the bench talking about how bad the current youth is.

Sly Guy
06-07-2013, 01:19 PM
this is also the guy who said kim jong eun was just a misunderstood nice guy.

MarkieMark48
06-07-2013, 01:19 PM
Rodman has a point bc with lebrons size, there is no way lebron wouldnt be able to be physical at all....

Knowledge
06-07-2013, 01:20 PM
If lebron grew up in that era, he would get use to the fouls/physicality, all of his numbers would increase because of the pace of play, and he might have developed a post game earlier.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 01:20 PM
the same dude who agreed with Zeke about Bird being considered average if he were black?

Don't care. The skinny *** SF's of the 80's and 90's would have been torched by Bron.

8kobe24
06-07-2013, 01:28 PM
You don't have any clue about the 90's era. Rodman was one of the biggest flopper in the league. If you want I can point you to watch some games. Not taking anything away from rodman. He is one of the greatest rebounder ever.

Whoa, easy there... no clue? I never said Rodman never flopped. Rodman in the 90's yes, but not so much the Rodman in the 80's. Whenever he did flop, it was to irritate opposing players and get in their heads...but that's besides the point. All I was trying to point out was, if leflop flopped then he would have gotten the dirty treatment from the players in that era.

8kobe24
06-07-2013, 01:29 PM
the same dude who agreed with Zeke about Bird being considered average if he were black?

Don't care. The skinny *** SF's of the 80's and 90's would have been torched by Bron.

Good point, imagine if they had PEDs then like they do now?

Heatcheck
06-07-2013, 01:29 PM
this is also the guy who said kim jong eun was just a misunderstood nice guy.

THANK YOU...This guys a ****i.ng moron, always has been, and NOW when he says something negative about lebron, his opinions have weight all of a sudden. Lebron wouldve raped the 80s, much bigger and athletic. there's a reason chuck and magic gush over him, their still relevant (now its for their opinion of the game) so they have no problem ceding to lebron. rodman on the other hand is broke and lost in North Korea somewhere, starved for attention.

Heatcheck
06-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Whoa, easy there... no clue? I never said Rodman never flopped. Rodman in the 90's yes, but not so much the Rodman in the 80's. Whenever he did flop, it was to irritate opposing players and get in their heads...but that's besides the point. All I was trying to point out was, if leflop flopped then he would have gotten the dirty treatment from the players in that era.

and without the threat of losing some big endorsment deal, i doubt that would last long, how much bigger he is than everyone else

Heatcheck
06-07-2013, 01:35 PM
yeah, a lower level

FOBolous
06-07-2013, 01:41 PM
the 80s and 90s were an era of giants. back then, when a guard gets to the paint, in order to get a layup or dunk, he has to trifle with the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Mark Eaton just to name a few....all of these players are all-time greats in shot blocking. defensive 3 second rule? don't make me laugh. these guys will camp down there and make you regret for entering the paint. Jordan was able to succeed in this era. i'd like to see some of the great players of our era get the layups and dunks they get know with those players camping down there in the paint. who do players today have to trifle with when they get to the paint? Brook Lopez? :laugh2:

Slug3
06-07-2013, 01:41 PM
I'm am tired of hearing about how defense was better in the 80/90s. This is not true and all the numbers back up that defense now is just as good. The one only deference is they might let them get away with hand checks more then. But I'm positive that 70% of people on here never saw a game in the 80s and a good amout probably never saw a 90s game as well. The defense today is just as good.

c.c.
06-07-2013, 01:49 PM
Don't Dennis Rodman do drugs? Maybe he was high during this interview, he should get interviewed when he sobers up. If the best player in today's game would be average then I guess everybody else below him would be too right? Foolishness I tell ya!

king4day
06-07-2013, 01:56 PM
He also said Kim Jong Un is a nice guy so his opinion is clearly a worthy one.

Green_Monster
06-07-2013, 02:03 PM
Well, he wouldn't consistently gets calls in the paint when he drives. I would imagine most guys that like to drive a lot wouldn't be as good. He would still be a star, just probably not the best player.

MJL80
06-07-2013, 02:33 PM
I dunno why people get themselves all worked up over what this idiot says... he's a clown and a degenerate

ChicagoJ
06-07-2013, 02:34 PM
Lebron would be very good, but not the same as today. It's one of the things I hate because when watching lebron go to the basket with little to no resistance it always seems like if it was the 90s all those drives would be contested. There is no way he would score on drives so easily.

There were so many great players and big men from that era, today's game hardly compares and lebron wouldn't be the star he is today in yesterday's game.

OceanSpray
06-07-2013, 02:39 PM
I love it. What do you expect Rodman to say? He wants to boost his argument that he played in a tougher era. I don't care what you say, no one will be able to rebound 20 a game because of the rules. Rodman would have been a better version of Reggie Evans. We're talking about LeBron James. One of the greatest players ever. He's just going to be an average player? Someone also said he'll be an All Star? Lmao, the ignorance is high on this forum. He's better than Kobe Bryant. Are you saying Kobe would've been an average player as well? If we're going to treat these old school players like Gods, then we might as well consider the future like scums. Average player... LeBron is the greatest athlete in sports. He would dominate in any and every era of basketball. It's quite astonishing that all these old school players brag about their era while knowing there's absolutely no way to compare.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 02:39 PM
Good point, imagine if they had PEDs then like they do now?

LeBron was as big as a 1989 average SF by the age of 16. Explain that

OceanSpray
06-07-2013, 02:43 PM
This era of basketball is designed for PG's to dominate. Centers are diminished because they can't stay on the paint 24/7, grabbing every rebound. There's a reason why no one can average 20-30 RPG anymore. If a center can camp in the paint 24/7, there's no reason they shouldn't be getting the ball. Why do you think centers have adapted to the three point shooting more than ever? Because the game has changed. NBA players are playing the game to their advantage and they will change accordingly if this were the 80's as well. Don't blame the players, blame the social differences of today. Back then, they were taught the game differently. If James/Howard were born in that era, they would have the exact same mentality.

OceanSpray
06-07-2013, 02:44 PM
Good point, imagine if they had PEDs then like they do now?

LeBron was huge since his high school days. Are you saying he's been using PED's since he was 14? C'mon, stop the excuses. There are athletes much bigger than LeBron was. Shaq was even bigger than LeBron at the same age.

Bravo95
06-07-2013, 02:47 PM
Maybe a small dropoff against the ruthless defenses we saw in the 90s, but he would have been deadly in the 80s.

OceanSpray
06-07-2013, 02:49 PM
Maybe a small dropoff against the ruthless defenses we saw in the 90s, but he would have been deadly in the 80s.

LeBron would blow past Larry Bird. Not a lot of people in that era were physically built like LeBron is. He would run over them all.. His defense would've been just as good, if not better. Players were much slower back then.

dnl123
06-07-2013, 02:56 PM
This is a joke. There are a few transcendant players in the history of the NBA that could play in any era and Lebron is one of them. I'd say off the top of my head Kobe, Michael Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, Kareem, and Kevin Durant are on that list, I know I'm leaving some off but I just wanted to make a short list of examples.

sammid21
06-07-2013, 03:00 PM
I say Lebron would be Wilkins with better passing. An allstar but not dominating as in this era

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:02 PM
Lebron would be very good, but not the same as today. It's one of the things I hate because when watching lebron go to the basket with little to no resistance it always seems like if it was the 90s all those drives would be contested. There is no way he would score on drives so easily.

There were so many great players and big men from that era, today's game hardly compares and lebron wouldn't be the star he is today in yesterday's game.

if lebron grew up in that era, he would work more on postgame and shooting, instead of passing and running the point, lebron woud dominate those skinny guys, but then again lebron probably wouldn't be as strong and healthy as today.

sammid21
06-07-2013, 03:04 PM
LeBron would blow past Larry Bird. Not a lot of people in that era were physically built like LeBron is. He would run over them all.. His defense would've been just as good, if not better. Players were much slower back then.


Lebron does get frustrated when he plays versus hard hitting teams. Since the 80s and 90s were a tough defensive era where you can knock a guy on his azz, lebron would crumble mentally as a rookie although he would overcome it, he would be a superstar, just not as dominate as he is now

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:04 PM
He said, " Larry Bird is overrated in a lot of areas. I don't think he's the greatest player. He's way overrated." These derogatory words about Bird, widely acclaimed as the NBA's best or, at worst, second-best player, felt good as they came cascading out. "Why does he get so much publicity?" Rodman continued. "Because he's white. You never hear about a black player being the greatest." From where he was sitting nearby, Detroit teammate Isiah Thomas agreed that if Bird were black, "he'd be just another good guy."


btw this what rodman had to say about bird, LOL dude is delusional.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-07-2013, 03:06 PM
this is also the guy who said kim jong eun was just a misunderstood nice guy.

This.

Lebron would definitely be a legit player back then. Not to mention he could've started his career with a deeper team in the 80's like Magic(which can mean more titles).

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:09 PM
i wonder if the think hes better than lebron? if lebron is average than i wonder what he thinks of himself.

Slug3
06-07-2013, 03:10 PM
Lebron does get frustrated when he plays versus hard hitting teams. Since the 80s and 90s were a tough defensive era where you can knock a guy on his azz, lebron would crumble mentally as a rookie although he would overcome it, he would be a superstar, just not as dominate as he is now

Regardless if he gets frustrated or not, he still puts up the numbers against them. I dont really know too many players that want to be hit hard though.

NYCkid12
06-07-2013, 03:14 PM
this is also the guy who said kim jong eun was just a misunderstood nice guy.

Exactly

Bravo95
06-07-2013, 03:14 PM
I say Lebron would be Wilkins with better passing. An allstar but not dominating as in this era
No. Love 'Nique and believe he could have been a scoring machine in any era but he was nowhere close to the lockdown defender or rebounder that LeBron is. If 'Nique took his defense more seriously, we (Hawks) might have reached a conference Final or two.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:17 PM
actually.. he might be right, if he grew up in that era than he wouldn't have learned the game from magic/jordan/bird

Shkelqim
06-07-2013, 03:17 PM
I really wish they played in the same era. Of course no player will admit the reality that LeBron is a ****ing beast. These players have 2 stay relevant, by making these statements.

ThuglifeJ
06-07-2013, 03:18 PM
why are fans from miami so arrogant?
the things they say or when they defend they're players are so obnoxious and arrogant.

would never wanna live down there

d00d
06-07-2013, 03:20 PM
unless you are in your 40's and up, you don't remember the rugby football style of ball Jordan went up against every ****ing game.

The Jordan rules was beat the **** out of his body night in night out.

Jordan dominated in an era of heavy physical contact and triple team that allowed them to maul him.

If he went to the hoop the bad boys made sure he ended up on the floor in pain.

Lebron would wither in that environment and noone who is honest with themself can deny that.


why are fans from miami so arrogant?
the things they say or when they defend they're players are so obnoxious and arrogant.

would never wanna live down there

dont worry they will be burning his jersey this summer or next

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:22 PM
unless you are in your 40's and up, you don't remember the rugby football style of ball Jordan went up against every ****ing game.

The Jordan rules was beat the **** out of his body night in night out.

Jordan dominated in an era of heavy physical contact and triple team that allowed them to maul him.

If he went to the hoop the bad boys made sure he ended up on the floor in pain.

Lebron would wither in that environment and noone who is honest with themself can deny that.

jordan was sterns pet, he paved the way for superstar calls we see today.

85BearsDefense
06-07-2013, 03:26 PM
A better version of Reggie Evans... You've got to be kidding me. Stop posting immediately and get your head checked

Muttman73
06-07-2013, 03:32 PM
I would love to see the look on the big babys face when Charles Oakley knocked his *** down, all of that crying and gesturing for the calls, he would get his *** kicked until he got tired and figured it out.

Getting UGGLA
06-07-2013, 03:35 PM
Not often I agree with Rodman but he hit the nail on the head on this one.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 03:36 PM
that's stupid. watered down 90's extension competition would have gotten smacked up by the super-teams of today, and the elite defense of the early 2000's. every single "contender" from the 90's other than the Chicago Bulls would be eaten alive by todays elite teams. Chicagos competition in the finals during the 90's was a joke. Those 90's Knicks/Pacers/Heat/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz wouldn't stand a chance against todays elite teams in a best of seven.

Sactown
06-07-2013, 03:37 PM
unless you are in your 40's and up, you don't remember the rugby football style of ball Jordan went up against every ****ing game.

The Jordan rules was beat the **** out of his body night in night out.

Jordan dominated in an era of heavy physical contact and triple team that allowed them to maul him.

If he went to the hoop the bad boys made sure he ended up on the floor in pain.

Lebron would wither in that environment and noone who is honest with themself can deny that.



dont worry they will be burning his jersey this summer or next
Lol such a dumb post... 6'6 220 pound man can take the contact, but a man who is 6'8 and 260+ can't? I'd love to see any wing defender try to check Lebron James... Lebron was every bit as quick as Jordan, but twice as strong, I'd love to see the Pistons try to put this man on his ***, because I guarantee it would be a hell of a lot harder than putting Jordan on the ground..

On top of that, Lebron is an ELITE defender... Imagine him with the ability to check offensive players? He'd dominate players with his defense alone.. Imagine if he could just check todays PG's... because nobody can check Lebron by themselves and on top of that you couldn't zone up on him like you can today.. I think Lebron would still be an elite player in the 80's if not better.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 03:39 PM
LeBron would have dominated the 80's and 90's. a guy that size who's already DPOY caliber being able to hand-check? Good luck scoring on him.

i love how all these hand-check people never talk about how LeBron would be allowed to hand check himself and would have been an even more dominant defender? LBJ has the body to deal with the physicality of the 80's and 90's.

Getting UGGLA
06-07-2013, 03:39 PM
I say Lebron would be Wilkins with better passing. An allstar but not dominating as in this era

Eaasy there, that's the Human Highlight Reel you're talking about!

d00d
06-07-2013, 03:42 PM
Lol such a dumb post... 6'6 220 pound man can take the contact, but a man who is 6'8 and 260+ can't? I'd love to see any wing defender try to check Lebron James... Lebron was every bit as quick as Jordan, but twice as strong, I'd love to see the Pistons try to put this man on his ***, because I guarantee it would be a hell of a lot harder than putting Jordan on the ground..

On top of that, Lebron is an ELITE defender... Imagine him with the ability to check offensive players? He'd dominate players with his defense alone.. Imagine if he could just check todays PG's... because nobody can check Lebron by themselves and on top of that you couldn't zone up on him like you can today.. I think Lebron would still be an elite player in the 80's if not better.

the *****'s heart would quit like he has countless times before when faced with 1/4 the physical play of the 90's like Boston and Indiana the past years.

jon32
06-07-2013, 03:44 PM
Dont agree with this at all......I hate how people from different times never want to accept that ppl can be better than players of their era......its always " he'd suck during my time blah blah blah " . Had Lebron grown up during that time Id imagine he'd play the game a little tougher back then.......but hes in a league that doesnt have that now. I dont even like Lebron but he'd still be one of the best in the league

bucketss
06-07-2013, 03:45 PM
that's stupid. watered down 90's extension competition would have gotten smacked up by the super-teams of today, and the elite defense of the early 2000's. every single "contender" from the 90's other than the Chicago Bulls would be eaten alive by todays elite teams. Chicagos competition in the finals during the 90's was a joke. Those 90's Knicks/Pacers/Heat/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz wouldn't stand a chance against todays elite teams in a best of seven.

agreed 100%

d00d
06-07-2013, 03:46 PM
agreed 100%

if you are still on this board after your fair weather fandom dies, I cant wait to see your posts with hate towards Lebron when he ditches "south beach" for the next superstar, something Jordan would never do once let alone twice

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 03:51 PM
unless you are in your 40's and up, you don't remember the rugby football style of ball Jordan went up against every ****ing game.

The Jordan rules was beat the **** out of his body night in night out.

Jordan dominated in an era of heavy physical contact and triple team that allowed them to maul him.

If he went to the hoop the bad boys made sure he ended up on the floor in pain.

Lebron would wither in that environment and noone who is honest with themself can deny that.



dont worry they will be burning his jersey this summer or next

People remember the hard fouls, but forget that the lane was wide open, and ignore that defenses are better now than they ever were.

Hard fouls does not equal great defense. Great defense equals great defense.

And I am 37, and remember Jordan's rookie year. The age minimum is around 32ish to have remembered Jordan in detail.

JordansBulls
06-07-2013, 03:52 PM
He wouldn't even be an average player during those decades because he wasn't born until 1984. :)

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 03:56 PM
if you are still on this board after your fair weather fandom dies, I cant wait to see your posts with hate towards Lebron when he ditches "south beach" for the next superstar, something Jordan would never do once let alone twice

Love that argument. Bron had to go get his help, he wasn't gifted the help. And you yourself are claiming the age deal, while forgetting this entire generation of youth flip jobs like candy, unlike the generations before. Loyalty in sports, and business, is gone, for good reason.

Bravo95
06-07-2013, 03:57 PM
every single "contender" from the 90's other than the Chicago Bulls would be eaten alive by todays elite teams.
Nah, even the ones that didn't win anything like the Jazz, Sonics, and the Shaq/Penny Magic teams could definitely go toe-to-toe with today's contenders. Legit duos on all three.

sammid21
06-07-2013, 04:03 PM
Eaasy there, that's the Human Highlight Reel you're talking about!

The human highlight film is my second fav player of all time, wish he couldve played in this era. he wouldve beasted with the tomahawk dunks

JordansBulls
06-07-2013, 04:03 PM
that's stupid. watered down 90's extension competition would have gotten smacked up by the super-teams of today, and the elite defense of the early 2000's. every single "contender" from the 90's other than the Chicago Bulls would be eaten alive by todays elite teams. Chicagos competition in the finals during the 90's was a joke. Those 90's Knicks/Pacers/Heat/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz wouldn't stand a chance against todays elite teams in a best of seven.

Those 90's teams would dominate these teams nowadays. A team like the 2013 Pacers probably don't even make the playoffs in the 80's or 90's and definitely don't make the Conference finals.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:05 PM
Nah, even the ones that didn't win anything like the Jazz, Sonics, and the Shaq/Penny Magic teams could definitely go toe-to-toe with today's contenders. Legit duos on all three.

you think a Utah Jazz team with Jeff Hornacek as their third best player would stand a chance against todays Heat or Spurs? The '98 Jazz were 17th/29 in defensive rating in 1998. They were a less than average defensive team within their own era. the 1998 Jazz wouldn't have gotten out of the western conference any year from 2000 on (imo).

Sonics? I'd entertain a competitive series because of their defense, but I still don't think they'd have enough fire power to get it done in a best of seven.

i just don't think any non-champion 1990's team would have stood a chance against todays spurs or heat in a best of seven. those 90's teams had a great duos as you said. today you need a big three, a top ten all-time player, or a hell of a bench with a run for the ages to get it done. the leagues talent has become more consolidated than it was in the 90s'.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:08 PM
Those 90's teams would dominate these teams nowadays. A team like the 2013 Pacers probably don't even make the playoffs in the 80's or 90's and definitely don't make the Conference finals.

I'm not talking about the Pacers (who wouldn't even had made the ECF if your boy was healthy/playoff positioning was different). I'm talking about todays top competition, Miami and San Antonio (proven champions).

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2013, 04:08 PM
People remember the hard fouls, but forget that the lane was wide open, and ignore that defenses are better now than they ever were.

Hard fouls does not equal great defense. Great defense equals great defense.

And I am 37, and remember Jordan's rookie year. The age minimum is around 32ish to have remembered Jordan in detail.

Defense right now has nothing on the defense or the 90's and early 00's. Keep reaching Hawk...

bucketss
06-07-2013, 04:10 PM
Defense right now has nothing on the defense or the 90's and early 00's. Keep reaching Hawk...

great argument.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:10 PM
Those 90's teams would dominate these teams nowadays. A team like the 2013 Pacers probably don't even make the playoffs in the 80's or 90's and definitely don't make the Conference finals.

and don't get me wrong- every 90's team I mentioned would have been playoff staples in todays league, year in and year out. I'm just saying they wouldn't stand a chance in the finals against this eras best teams (just like they didn't stand a chance against their own eras best teams at their given peaks- (Chicago and Houston).

JordansBulls
06-07-2013, 04:14 PM
and don't get me wrong- every 90's team I mentioned would have been playoff staples in todays league, year in and year out. I'm just saying they wouldn't stand a chance in the finals against this eras best teams (just like they didn't stand a chance against their own eras best teams at their given peaks- (Chicago and Houston).
How so? The 1998 Spurs is better than the current Spurs and in that playoffs the Jazz went thru the Rockets big 3 of Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, the Twin towers of Robinson and Duncan both of which was averaging 21 and 11 for the season and then the Lakers who had 4 allstars and a prime Shaq on top of that. And Miami has gone 7 games two years in a row to teams that did not even win 50 games on the season.

TheIlladelph16
06-07-2013, 04:25 PM
the *****'s heart would quit like he has countless times before when faced with 1/4 the physical play of the 90's like Boston and Indiana the past years.

I'm not sure you watched the same Boston and Indiana series that the rest of us did the last two years :confused:

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:27 PM
How so? The 1998 Spurs is better than the current Spurs
No they weren't. The 1998 Spurs were 9th in SRS @ 3.30. The 2013 Spurs are 3rd in SRS @ 6.67. The 1998 Spurs had no bench, and were a less than average offensive team despite the dominance of the twin towers.



and in that playoffs the Jazz went thru the Rockets big 3 of Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler,
they were all 35 years old and WASHED UP.


the Twin towers of Robinson and Duncan both of which was averaging 21 and 11 for the season
this matters a lot less than the team statistics I posted above.


and then the Lakers who had 4 allstars and a prime Shaq on top of that. And Miami has gone 7 games two years in a row to teams that did not even win 50 games on the season.

Those Lakers had zero chemistry, discipline or the proper coaching (Kobe was 19 and Van Exel disappeared in the post-season). an impressive victory no doubt, but you and I both know those '98 Jazz would have stood no chance against the seasoned and ready three-peak Lakers of a few years later. point remains- beating those '98 Lakers doesn't mean they could have beaten todays Heat or Spurs- proven seasoned champions (something the '98 Lakers were not).

d00d
06-07-2013, 04:28 PM
I'm not sure you watched the same Boston and Indiana series that the rest of us did the last two years :confused:


I would say Indiana this year was more physical than most and effective and Boston against Lebron has been more physical too. not this year but years past.

and that was effective at only a fraction of the physicality of the 80's and 90's

RiceOnTheRun
06-07-2013, 04:31 PM
Magic Johnson was 6'9 220.

Lebron James is 6'8 250.

Magic is arguably a top three PG if not the best, and he played in the 80s. Even he admitted Lebron was the most physically gifted player of all time and you think he'd be just an average player?

Magic > Lebron when it comes to vision and making passes but Lebron excels him by far with his athleticism. You're telling me a guy who played some center as a rookie in the finals while throwing up 42/15/7 would be one of the GOATs but Lebron, 30 lbs heavier would just be an "average" player? C'mon let's get real folks. If he played with Magic there would be no competition.

JerseyPalahniuk
06-07-2013, 04:31 PM
Those 90's teams would dominate these teams nowadays. A team like the 2013 Pacers probably don't even make the playoffs in the 80's or 90's and definitely don't make the Conference finals.

A team like the 2013 Pacers might not have even made the Conference finals in 2013 if it weren't for the injuries to the Bulls and Celtics. Yes even if Granger was back - Lance stephenson wouldve ridden the bench the whole year just like he did his first two years.

Bravo95
06-07-2013, 04:32 PM
you think a Utah Jazz team with Jeff Hornacek as their third best player would stand a chance against todays Heat or Spurs? The '98 Jazz were 17th/29 in defensive rating in 1998. They were a less than average defensive team within their own era. the 1998 Jazz wouldn't have gotten out of the western conference any year from 2000 on (imo).

Sonics? I'd entertain a competitive series because of their defense, but I still don't think they'd have enough fire power to get it done in a best of seven.

i just don't think any non-champion 1990's team would have stood a chance against todays spurs or heat in a best of seven. those 90's teams had a great duos as you said. today you need a big three, a top ten all-time player, or a hell of a bench with a run for the ages to get it done. the leagues talent has become more consolidated than it was in the 90s'.
It's one thing to debate whether a specific player could thrive in any era. But too many of today's teams are either too soft or poorly coached to handle 48 minutes of dirty tactics from some of those 90s teams. Everyone faces adversity, and when the meltdown happens, they won't get much help from the sidelines.

If you guys want to put your money on guys like Brooks, Spoelstra, Woodson, and Del Negro putting out a fire versus Hall of Famers like Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, and Larry Brown, then be my guest.

JordansBulls
06-07-2013, 04:34 PM
No they weren't. The 1998 Spurs were 9th in SRS @ 3.30. The 2013 Spurs are 3rd in SRS @ 6.67. The 1998 Spurs had no bench, and were a less than average offensive team despite the dominance of the twin towers.


The SRS doesn't matter much here because the league was much stronger in 1998 than it is now and not that close either. You had two perenial superstars on one team getting 21/11 and 21/12, imagine them on teams nowadays? Scary.





they were all 35 years old and WASHED UP.

They weren't washed up, both MJ and Malone were MVP players at the same age and they all came in around same time.



this matters a lot less than the team statistics I posted above.


How so?



Those Lakers had zero chemistry, discipline or the proper coaching (Kobe was 19 and Van Exel disappeared in the post-season). an impressive victory no doubt, but you and I both know those '98 Jazz would have stood no chance against the seasoned and ready three-peak Lakers of a few years later. point remains- beating those '98 Lakers doesn't mean they could have beaten todays Heat or Spurs- proven seasoned champions (something the '98 Lakers were not).

Lakers were always glad they never played the Jazz. Pick and Roll killed LA.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:51 PM
The SRS doesn't matter much here because the league was much stronger in 1998 than it is now and not that close either.
SRS does matter (Ive seen you use SRS to compare and contrast multiple times, why sour on it now?).

The league wasn't stronger in '98 than it was today. The global infusion of talent was at its earliest stages and the watered down extension of adding new teams over the previous decade was still an notable reality.


You had two perenial superstars on one team getting 21/11 and 21/12, imagine them on teams nowadays? Scary.

I imagine box-zones smothering them due to their lack of a decent supporting cast.



They weren't washed up, both MJ and Malone were MVP players at the same age and they all came in around same time.
so what? just because they were the same age and came into the league at around the same time doesn't mean their bodies held up as well.

the '98 Rockets had a negative SRS JB (19th/29). Hakeem played 47 regular season games (he was dealing with injury and wasn't himself). Chuck only started 41 games, and Clyde missed 12 games himself.

Clyde posted a post-season PER of 14.2 (lowest post-season PER since 1986), Chuck- 16.2 (career playoff low at the time with a 4 point drop off in PER from the previous season), Dream- 18.8 (career playoff low at time- with a 9 point drop off in PER from the previous season).

how can you possibly sit there and say those guys weren't washed up? just because two players around their own age weren't washed up yet themselves? flawed logic.



How so?
because you're isolating the individual numbers of two players. I provided team statistics on a team game- which give us a more well rounded analysis.


Lakers were always glad they never played the Jazz. Pick and Roll killed LA.
inexperienced wing players with poor coaching left them vulnerable to the pick and roll. the point remains the same- todays Spurs and Heat wouldn't have struggled like the unprepared, inexperience, immature '98 Lakers.

FOBolous
06-07-2013, 04:53 PM
Dont agree with this at all......I hate how people from different times never want to accept that ppl can be better than players of their era......its always " he'd suck during my time blah blah blah " . Had Lebron grown up during that time Id imagine he'd play the game a little tougher back then.......but hes in a league that doesnt have that now. I dont even like Lebron but he'd still be one of the best in the league

If the league didn't pussified the games by making rules that makes it easier for wing players to score, no one would be acting the way they're acting right now.

RiLoc
06-07-2013, 04:54 PM
It seems like every year there is someone, including Jordan himself, saying that Jordan would score xxx more points. This is probably the closest claim to reality, considering Jordan averaged 37.1PPG in 1986-87. Could he squeeze out 3 more points per game? Honestly, I don't think he could. Maybe he'd be better trying when he was well rounded during the 92-93 season, but that's a stretch too. Yes, he'd get more foul calls and maybe this or that. But there is a lot of things that would be stacked against him...

First of all, there is a dramatic change in pace, NBA league averages:
1986-87 101.6 possessions per game.
1992-93 96.8 possessions per game.
2012-13 92.0 possessions per game.

You could easily argue that the Bulls were below average in both of those years 95.8 in 86-87 and 92.5 in 1992-93, but the reality is Jordan never played for a team in the upper half of pace. In fact, most years his teams were at the bottom.

In addition to that, stars don't play as many minutes, because heavy minutes tend to hurt your chances at a title. Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35752/heavy-minutes-hurt-title-chances

1986-87 Jordan 40.0 minutes per game.
1992-93 Jordan 39.3 minutes per game.
2012-13 Luol Deng led league with 38.7. Out of players making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, Steph Curry led with 38.2.

Okay, so he'd play less in a league with a slower pace. You could say, he'll just take a higher percentage of his teams shots, here are the usage rates and shot attempts, compared to high scorers now:

86-87 Jordan 2279 shot attempts 38.3% usage
92-93 Jordan 2003 shot attempts 34.7% usage

2012-13 points leaders:
12-13 Durant 1433 shot attempts 29.8%
12-13 Carmelo 1489 shot attempts 35.6% usage
12-13 Kobe 1595 shot attempts 31.9% usage
12-13 LeBron 1354 shot attempts 30.2% usage

Seems pretty clear he'd be taking significantly less shots, but hey maybe he'd find a way to take 400-500 more shots than Kobe & Melo.

The hand checking rule has definitely made things easier for guards, but there is another rule that makes it harder. The NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, which allowed for the popular defensive coaching philosophy of flooding the ball-side box. The defense popularized by Tom Thibodeau. When the ball is on one side of the court, an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball would make everything harder for Jordan. Driving lanes are tighter, more defenders have more ability to get hands in faces and it's more difficult to get to the spot you want on the floor.

In fact, I believe the combination of factors previously mentioned are responsible for the drastic reduction in the number 20 PPG scorer's recently...

Number of players averaging over 20PPG:
1986-87: 29
1992-93: 21
2012-13: 11

So while Jordan would definitely get more calls to the rack, modern defenses are tuned to prevent it. In fact, the NBA as a whole has a lot less free throws now than during Jordan's era:

1986-87-- 30.5
1992-93-- 27.7
2012-13-- 22.2

I assume, the reduction is due to a variety of reasons... Slower pace/less shots, defenses squeezing driving lanes forcing more shots away from the rack and most of all a dramatic increase in 3 pointers as their effectiveness is realized. The average team took 4.7 3pt shots per game in 1986-87. In 2012-13, Steph Curry average 7.2 and the average team average 20.0.

In fact, the only player in the NBA this season that averaged 20 points per game while shooting as badly on 3 point shots as Michael Jordan did in 1986-87 is LaMarcus Aldridge.

Sooo... That's a slower pace leading to less shots, unlikely to raise usage rate while having to deal with defensive flooding while driving because he wasn't a fantastic shooter until his late 20s when that is one of the keys to being 20 point scorer in the current league. Despite all the factors that might be in his favor, those would be some difficult things to overcome when attempting the ridiculous scoring numbers people like Wilbon, Jordan and Rodman say. Wow... I typed too much.

As far as LeBron being an "average" player; it's very difficult to know exactly how things would turn out. But if you let him take his body back in time, then the things that made Jordan special in terms of athleticism would make him special too. And LeBron is a more rounded player, he was statistically a better 3 point shooter than Larry Bird from ages 23-28 (Bird was a rookie @ 23), so it's not like he doesn't have a giant bag of tools. And I don't buy the physical play argument. Yes, it'd be a giant adjustment, but be real, you're telling me this guy going to have trouble with physical play: http://thecourtsidecollective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LeBron-James-e1331924028814.jpg

You remember these guys becoming legends despite the physical play of the era right?
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1006/celtics.lakers.1980s/images/bird-magic-3.jpg

Bruno
06-07-2013, 04:59 PM
It's one thing to debate whether a specific player could thrive in any era. But too many of today's teams are either too soft or poorly coached to handle 48 minutes of dirty tactics from some of those 90s teams. Everyone faces adversity, and when the meltdown happens, they won't get much help from the sidelines.

These players are products of their environments. If todays players improved and matured in a league where the rules allowed them to be more physical- then they would have adapted to the game/rules- have been more physical, and thrived in doing so. If the 80's players played with todays rules, their games would also be different.

players develop their games based off to the rules they must abide. todays players would have been "tougher" if they played in a league that allowed it, and the players from the 80's would have been more graceful if they played in a league that required less physicality. the 80's teams would have played great zone defenses if permitted by the rules, todays defenders would be elite and physical with the hand-check if allowed.

i disagree with the notion that players wouldn't have adapted to their given environments and rules- they would have.


If you guys want to put your money on guys like Brooks, Spoelstra, Woodson, and Del Negro putting out a fire versus Hall of Famers like Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, and Larry Brown, then be my guest.

What about Pop? He holds his own against anyone coach.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 05:01 PM
It seems like every year there is someone, including Jordan himself, saying that Jordan would score xxx more points. This is probably the closest claim to reality, considering Jordan averaged 37.1PPG in 1986-87. Could he squeeze out 3 more points per game? Honestly, I don't think he could. Maybe he'd be better trying when he was well rounded during the 92-93 season, but that's a stretch too. Yes, he'd get more foul calls and maybe this or that. But there is a lot of things that would be stacked against him...

First of all, there is a dramatic change in pace, NBA league averages:
1986-87 101.6 possessions per game.
1992-93 96.8 possessions per game.
2012-13 92.0 possessions per game.

You could easily argue that the Bulls were below average in both of those years 95.8 in 86-87 and 92.5 in 1992-93, but the reality is Jordan never played for a team in the upper half of pace. In fact, most years his teams were at the bottom.

In addition to that, stars don't play as many minutes, because heavy minutes tend to hurt your chances at a title. Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35752/heavy-minutes-hurt-title-chances

1986-87 Jordan 40.0 minutes per game.
1992-93 Jordan 39.3 minutes per game.
2012-13 Luol Deng led league with 38.7. Out of players making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, Steph Curry led with 38.2.

Okay, so he'd play less in a league with a slower pace. You could say, he'll just take a higher percentage of his teams shots, here are the usage rates and shot attempts, compared to high scorers now:

86-87 Jordan 2279 shot attempts 38.3% usage
92-93 Jordan 2003 shot attempts 34.7% usage

2012-13 points leaders:
12-13 Durant 1433 shot attempts 29.8%
12-13 Carmelo 1489 shot attempts 35.6% usage
12-13 Kobe 1595 shot attempts 31.9% usage
12-13 LeBron 1354 shot attempts 30.2% usage

Seems pretty clear he'd be taking significantly less shots, but hey maybe he'd find a way to take more 400-500 more shots than Kobe & Melo.

Maybe the hand checking rule has definitely made things easier for guards, but there is another rule that makes it harder. The NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, you don't see a ton of zone, but without that rule the NBA coaching philosphy of flooding the ball-side box wouldn't be legal. This was the defense popularized by Tom Thibodeau. When the ball is on one side of the court, an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball would make everything harder for Jordan. Driving lanes are tighter, more defenders have more ability to get hands in faces and it's more difficult to get to the spot you want on the floor.

In fact, I believe the combination of factors previously mentioned are responsible for the drastic reduction in the number 20 PPG scorer's recently...

Number of players averaging over 20PPG:
1986-87: 29
1992-93: 21
2012-13: 11

So while Jordan would definitely get more calls to the rack, modern defenses are tuned to prevent it. In fact, the NBA as a whole has a lot less free throws now than during Jordan's era:

1986-87-- 30.5
1992-93-- 27.7
2012-13-- 22.2

I assume, the reduction is due to a variety of reasons... Slower pace/less shots, defenses squeezing driving lanes forcing more shots away from the rack and most of all a dramatic increase in 3 pointers as their effectiveness is realized. The average team took 4.7 3pt shots per game in 1986-87. In 2012-13, Steph Curry average 7.2 and the average team average 20.0.

In fact, the only player in the NBA this season that averaged 20 points per game while shooting as badly on 3 point shots as Michael Jordan did in 1986-87 is LaMarcus Aldridge.

Sooo... That's a slower pace leading to less shots, unlikely to raise usage rate while having to deal with defensive flooding while driving because he wasn't a fantastic shooter until his late 20s when that is one of the keys to being 20 point scorer in the current league. Despite all the factors that might be in his favor, those would be some difficult things to overcome when attempting the ridiculous scoring numbers people like Wilbon, Jordan and Rodman say. Wow... I typed too much.

As far as LeBron being an "average" player; it's very difficult to know exactly how things would turn out. But if you let him take his body back in time, then the things that made Jordan special in terms of athleticism would make him special too. And LeBron is a more rounded player, he was statistically a better 3 point shooter than Larry Bird from ages 23-28 (Bird was a rookie @ 23), so it's not like he doesn't have a giant bag of tools. And I don't buy the physical play argument. Yes, it'd be a giant adjustment, but be real, you're telling me this guy going to have trouble with physical play: http://thecourtsidecollective.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LeBron-James-e1331924028814.jpg

You remember these guys becoming legends despite the physical play of the era right?
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1006/celtics.lakers.1980s/images/bird-magic-3.jpg

nice post. i've posted my own version of this a while back but I can't find it.

ChitownBears22
06-07-2013, 05:02 PM
Wow another ex-player with an opinion of a hypothetical scenario.

John Stockton could come out and say I think LeBron would average 100/100/100 if he was playing in the 90's. Doesn't mean that is is credible or even newsworthy.

blastmasta26
06-07-2013, 05:11 PM
It's really a stretch to say that LeBron would struggle in the Jordan era. He definitely has the strength to cope with physical defenses, and the athleticism to make them pay. His defense would be incredible as well. He'd get calls like Jordan did also.

G-Menfan4lyfe
06-07-2013, 05:29 PM
Just look at the scores in the 80s and 90s and tell me how defenses were better back then?

G-Menfan4lyfe
06-07-2013, 05:30 PM
Scoring 100+ pts was routine in the late 80s and early 90s. Today it's much more difficult.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 05:33 PM
If the league didn't pussified the games by making rules that makes it easier for wing players to score, no one would be acting the way they're acting right now.
What about the other rules? Was allowing a defense to defend HOWEVER they want a ***** rule too?

You remember what Dream said about zones dont you.

TeamSeattle
06-07-2013, 05:37 PM
What Rodman was really trying to say is this. Michael went up against hand-checking and much tougher defenses on a nightly basis because players got away with a **** load of contact because they just let them play. You look at an official the wrong way now and its an automatic T, none of that occurred in the golden age of the NBA. It's true Lebron MIGHT be the most physically gifted player of all time, but he came into a league that was the perfect fit for his paint-heavy attack early on.

Rodman has a point but he's way off base with the whole notion of him being "average". He'd obviously be still be a superstar, but maybe not he best in the league like he is currently.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 05:37 PM
Those 90's teams would dominate these teams nowadays. A team like the 2013 Pacers probably don't even make the playoffs in the 80's or 90's and definitely don't make the Conference finals.
The entire 80's and 90's?

Why do you make your arguments so ridiculously transparent ?

Bruno
06-07-2013, 05:38 PM
What about the other rules? Was allowing a defense to defend HOWEVER they want a ***** rule too?

You remember what Dream said about zones dont you.

what did dream say?

ChitownBears22
06-07-2013, 05:39 PM
could you imagine what LeBron could do to players if he could hook them like Jordan. 40+ a night. Good luck handchecking

JordansBulls
06-07-2013, 05:42 PM
Are you blaming Stern for the tough style of play (especially in the 90's), or for gaying up the league starting from 2004-05 onwards?

I certainly don't mind Stern trying to clean things up, but when they come right out and implement rules designed to allow perimeter players to do whatever they want with their "no touch" policy (which leads to an enormous amount of free throws and little defense), then that kind of sucks for teams that actually want to play defense. The only team that has been able to effectively contain these perimeter stars since the rule changes (consistently) are the Spurs and the Celtics.
Here's a good article that talks about how coaches were trying to transition from a contact league to the new "no touch" league that we see today:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



Referees have been ordered to emphasize what often is called "the no-touching rule." As the league continues its battle to keep scoring up and thuggery down, it is focusing on perimeter contact as never before.

Though team scoring is holding steady, all those trips to the line have resulted in higher averages for players at the top of the scoring charts. For the first time in 24 seasons, three players--Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and LeBron James--are likely to average more than 30.0 points for the season. Two years ago, there wasn't a single 30-point scorer. Entering the week, there had been 95 performances of 40 points or more, compared with 67 last season and 41 two seasons ago.

Indeed, the league has created a statistical whirlwind, but there has been a price. The ebb and flow of an 82-game season has added a bit too much ebb, with the continuous whistles creating points for players who are more than capable of creating them for themselves. The aesthetics that result from increased scoring are being negated by all the whistles.

The league's stance is this is nothing new, at least this season. "It's actually been in effect for two years." says NBA senior vice president Stu Jackson. "It was really an outgrowth of the hand check. What evolved is players originally used the hand check in an effort to deter the offensive player or reroute him. And then we saw a real influx of body checks by players in an effort to reroute the offensive player off his path."

On one hand, the no-touch policy has coaches giving the ball to their slashers, which clears the court for either dynamic dunks or frequent free throws. On the other, those same coaches are at their wits' end trying to orchestrate an effective defense.

It is an officiating style that would have turned the smart folks who employed the Jordan Rules into Jordan's fools.

"There is so much stuff being called out on the perimeter," Knicks coach Larry Brown says. "I can't imagine what Michael would have gotten with the hand-check rules the way they're calling it now."

Jordan's former running partner is not so sure he could have reached his own level of success under the current rules. "I'm glad I'm not playing now," Scottie Pippen says. "I wouldn't be a good defensive player."

Even Rothstein, now a Heat assistant coach, is conflicted. Like many who were on Chuck Daly's Pistons staffs in the late '80s, he is consumed with the science of NBA defense. He sees little reason for any player to shoot 20 or 25 free throws in a game. But he appreciates that offense sells and that it's what commissioner David Stern wants and what fans expect in this video-driven era of individual theatrics.

"I understand the nature of the business and who we are and what we are," Rothstein says. "Do I like it? No. But it doesn't matter if 1 like it. There are still very good defenders in this league who do a very good job, who have adjusted to the rules. It used to be you'd get a forearm on and it gave you certain leverage. So you've got to move your feet better. There's no way you can be as good under the current rules."

Rothstein's boss says it is undeniable that the game has changed for today's offensive stars.

"I think guys are just warming up to the whole thing," Heat coach Pat Riley says. "Everybody's starting to realize, 'Hey, I can get a ton here.' So I think this year has really been the first year where the rule is starting to have an impact. We're going to have a 200-point game by a team pretty soon."

Chronz
06-07-2013, 05:44 PM
LOL Pippen wouldnt be a good defensive player.

TeamSeattle
06-07-2013, 05:45 PM
could you imagine what LeBron could do to players if he could hook them like Jordan. 40+ a night. Good luck handchecking

There's a reason why the offensive turn-hook was popularized in the 00's. Its because hand-checking was no longer there, its a two way street for your argument.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 05:47 PM
Rodman is exaggerating a bit, but he has a point. Lebron and all his flopping would not get him the calls he gets now. Other than Dwayne Wade, I have never seen a player get more preferential treatment from the refs than Lebron does now. Perhaps that has to do with all his hype and sponsorships, either way, his stats would not be close to what they are now in the 80's and 90's. Back then you needed to have good rebounding big men to win. Lebron wouldn't be able to get away with the stat hogging he does now in terms of his inflated rebounding numbers as they would not be able to contend with the bigger teams of the 80's and 90's without at least one legitimate rebounding big. Especially under the old rules and without having the luxury of the weak east to cake walk through to the finals every year.

DiscoHayes
06-07-2013, 05:48 PM
the bulls never played rodman to think. where I'm from we have a funny name for man who wears a wedding dress. It's best if I don't write it down

amos1er
06-07-2013, 05:56 PM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1

Great find. The "no touching rule" has helped Lebron's game tremendously. It allowed Stern more control over who he wanted to make into a superstar, rather than letting a player become a superstar on their own. For Stern this means more control over his investment and in turn, larger profits. Then factor the tons of flopping that James does to get even more calls in his favor, and we have ourselves the next great superstar.

Bruno
06-07-2013, 05:58 PM
Great find. The "no touching rule" has helped Lebron's game tremendously. It allowed Stern more control over who he wanted to make into a superstar, rather than letting a player become a superstar on their own. For Stern this means more control over his investment and in turn, larger profits. Then factor the tons of flopping that James does to get even more calls in his favor, and we have ourselves the next great superstar.

our boy benefited from this too though- if you're gona apply that to LBJ you gotta apply it to Kobe, right?

amos1er
06-07-2013, 06:22 PM
our boy benefited from this too though- if you're gona apply that to LBJ you gotta apply it to Kobe, right?

Kobe did benefit as well, but not nearly to the extent as did LBJ. Kobe rarely ever flops or gets phantom calls in his favor, while Lebron is one of the biggest floppers of his generation and gets more phantom fouls than anyone not named D-Whistle.

DiscoHayes
06-07-2013, 06:30 PM
Kobe did benefit as well, but not nearly to the extent as did LBJ. Kobe rarely ever flops or gets phantom calls in his favor, while Lebron is one of the biggest floppers of his generation and gets more phantom fouls than anyone not named D-Whistle.

Manu is the king of floppers he had a obvious flop last night , I could have sworn I seen kobe argue with refs for calls liked he got fouled twice every play

Bruno
06-07-2013, 06:35 PM
Kobe did benefit as well, but not nearly to the extent as did LBJ. Kobe rarely ever flops or gets phantom calls in his favor, while Lebron is one of the biggest floppers of his generation and gets more phantom fouls than anyone not named D-Whistle.

LBJ benefits more in recent memory just because Kobe hasn't gotten to the line quite as dominantly as he did in his 20's. maybe he does get more phanton calls, i dono.

in broader terms of this discussion, i understand the hand-checking stuff. i'm just one of those guys who thinks that ZONE being legal is a much bigger player in the grand scheme of things.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 06:37 PM
Manu is the king of floppers he had a obvious flop last night , I could have sworn I seen kobe argue with refs for calls liked he got fouled twice every play

Kobe only argued so much because he got swindled so much. He didn't have the media support or corporate sponsorships that Lebron has. Honestly, if Kobe got the calls that Lebron gets, he would have averaged like 37 ppg on 50% from the field easily back in his prime. The Colorado incident didn't exactly help Kobe all that much either.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 06:40 PM
LBJ benefits more in recent memory just because Kobe hasn't gotten to the line quite as dominantly as he did in his 20's. maybe he does get more phanton calls, i dono.

in broader terms of this discussion, i understand the hand-checking stuff. i'm just one of those guys who thinks that ZONE being legal is a much bigger player in the grand scheme of things.

Prime Kobe got shafted by the refs on the daily. He even had to adapt his game by learning how to still make shots while getting fouled. Shannon Brown attests to this.

Go to the 1:09 mark as Shannon explains Kobe telling him to smack him on the arm on his jump shot as a way to practice shooting through the non foul calls he gets in games. Just incredible:

http://espn.go.com/v...clip?id=6227393

3RDASYSTEM
06-07-2013, 06:43 PM
He would be a great player, but his inflated stats wouldn't exist. He would also still be a perennial loser.

had he chosen the route of BEAN and MAGIC im sure he wouldn't be a perennial loser going to a storied franchise who goes to CONFERENCE/NBA FINALS basically annually, and they'll take others cities rings to boost up they own cities to make them even more a powerhouse

he would have been on one of those stacked 80's squad, playing with RODMAN I bet the WORM would change his tune, just like he wouldn't praise ZEKE if they weren't mates and switched him with DREXLER or PAYTON

its all poppycock for fan/media reaction

as for the stats and great player part, you maybe on to something

but being a freak of nature and having skill is a major major advantage in any sport in any era, see WILT for proof

any player who wins 4 league mvps in 10full seasons can play in any era, at high level

LBJackpot
06-07-2013, 06:49 PM
Kobe only argued so much because he got swindled so much. He didn't have the media support or corporate sponsorships that Lebron has. Honestly, if Kobe got the calls that Lebron gets, he would have averaged like 37 ppg on 50% from the field easily back in his prime. The Colorado incident didn't exactly help Kobe all that much either.

50%? Hahahahaha wow good one

odiz
06-07-2013, 06:50 PM
Why do people think a more physical game would hurt Lebron? Hes 6'8" 250 and a lot of his game is absorbing contact on drives and post ups. He might be the most physically gifted basketball player in the history of the game. Look at Jordan when he was dominating, he was a twig in comparison to LeBron, if he could handle the physical play im sure a much bigger and stronger Lebron could to. Sorry but there is no era where he wouldnt be a superstar. Im not even a Lebron fan really, but all the hate towards him is getting ridiculous.

DiscoHayes
06-07-2013, 06:51 PM
50%? Hahahahaha wow good one

that's what I was thinking

LBJackpot
06-07-2013, 07:03 PM
that's what I was thinking

Kobe would probably also shoot 40% from 3 because he does that all the time too right

Sactown
06-07-2013, 07:13 PM
Prime Kobe got shafted by the refs on the daily. He even had to adapt his game by learning how to still make shots while getting fouled. Shannon Brown attests to this.

Go to the 1:09 mark as Shannon explains Kobe telling him to smack him on the arm on his jump shot as a way to practice shooting through the non foul calls he gets in games. Just incredible:

http://espn.go.com/v...clip?id=6227393

During Kobe's prime he averaged over 10 FTA a game.. The same # Lebron averages, also Lebron attacks the basket more... Kobe has never been shafted of anything in his life... stupid thing to say

DiscoHayes
06-07-2013, 07:14 PM
Kobe would probably also shoot 40% from 3 because he does that all the time too right as of now his career three point avg is 32.6. 40% is ray allen territory

mjt20mik
06-07-2013, 07:34 PM
He's true. Lebron complains about calls a lot and flops. He wouldn't really get much in the 80s and 90s with the way he plays.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 07:40 PM
During Kobe's prime he averaged over 10 FTA a game.. The same # Lebron averages, also Lebron attacks the basket more... Kobe has never been shafted of anything in his life... stupid thing to say

You shouldn't be so quick to call others stupid. Though I do find your little attempt humorous.

If you factor in the fact that Kobe took more FG attempts during his prime, then Lebron was still getting way more love from the refs.

Quick math lesson: If player a shoots 18 times per game and gets to the line 10 times and player b shoots 27 times and gets to the line 10 times, which player is getting more love from the refs? Do I really need to explain any further. I'm hoping you can do simple division to get the percentages right. Than again, you were foolish enough to advocate in favor of Lebron getting non bias treatment from the refs compared to Kobe so anything is possible. Truthfully I didn't even need to confirm this by doing the numbers as the eye test is more than enough to realize this after years of observation.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 07:41 PM
He would be above average. But Rodman has a point, the physicality of the game then would upset Lebron.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 07:42 PM
as of now his career three point avg is 32.6. 40% is ray allen territory

Wrong...it's 33.6. Love how you short change Kobe on everything. Enough is enough already. lol

amos1er
06-07-2013, 07:42 PM
He would be above average. But Rodman has a point, the physicality of the game then would upset Lebron.

No flopping would hurt him the most IMO.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 07:44 PM
He's true. Lebron complains about calls a lot and flops. He wouldn't really get much in the 80s and 90s with the way he plays.

Finally someone objective enough to admit the truth. Lulz These Lebronites think he is a god.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 07:47 PM
Kobe only argued so much because he got swindled so much. He didn't have the media support or corporate sponsorships that Lebron has. Honestly, if Kobe got the calls that Lebron gets, he would have averaged like 37 ppg on 50% from the field easily back in his prime. The Colorado incident didn't exactly help Kobe all that much either.

kobe in his prime got like 10+ fts a game, more than lebron.. a lot of bull ones too, you know the ones where he breaks peoples nose than gets to shoot free throws.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 07:48 PM
No flopping would hurt him the most IMO.

he only flops because the refs call it, its funny you think its an important part of his game.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 07:50 PM
During Kobe's prime he averaged over 10 FTA a game.. The same # Lebron averages, also Lebron attacks the basket more... Kobe has never been shafted of anything in his life... stupid thing to say

lebron attacks the basket non stop and still only got like 6-7 attempts a night this year.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 07:51 PM
he only flops because the refs call it, its funny you think its an important part of his game.

It's an enormous part of his game. Are you being serious right now?

dalton749
06-07-2013, 07:52 PM
people saying the physicality would hurt lebron are ****ing retards.
lebrons only complaint is that he takes more contact then other guys in the league because of his ridiculous size and strength, which is true.
in an era where everyone gets the same physical treatment he would dominate on both ends.
can you imagine trying to score on lebron when hes allowed to be more physical? youre ****ed.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 07:53 PM
lebron attacks the basket non stop and still only got like 6-7 attempts a night this year.

Lebron is loved by refs and the league(stern). How else can you justify a player who plays "amazing defense" not being called for a single foul in many games. When I played ball, I was taught it you don't use up your fouls then you're not playing hard enough.

Slug3
06-07-2013, 07:54 PM
Kobe only argued so much because he got swindled so much. He didn't have the media support or corporate sponsorships that Lebron has. Honestly, if Kobe got the calls that Lebron gets, he would have averaged like 37 ppg on 50% from the field easily back in his prime. The Colorado incident didn't exactly help Kobe all that much either.

What does getting fouls called for you have to do with shooting 50%? He has had all these years to do it and hasn't. Lets not forgot one other milestone Kobe is getting ready to break. The most missed shots in NBA history.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 07:56 PM
people saying the physicality would hurt lebron are ****ing retards.
lebrons only complaint is that he takes more contact then other guys in the league because of his ridiculous size and strength, which is true.
in an era where everyone gets the same physical treatment he would dominate on both ends.
can you imagine trying to score on lebron when hes allowed to be more physical? youre ****ed.
Lots of guys back then were as strong or more strong than Lebron. Malone, pippen, Barkley, the admiral, Ben Wallace, etc.

Hangtime
06-07-2013, 07:58 PM
I get really tired of these stupid arguments. If Lebron grew up in that era of basketball, he simply wouldn't be the same player he is now. He would adapt to that style of play, no matter how physical it was. It was a different league and it would have influenced his game just like any other great who played back then.

We all know he would have had the physique to compete with any individual.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:00 PM
kobe in his prime got like 10+ fts a game, more than lebron.. a lot of bull ones too, you know the ones where he breaks peoples nose than gets to shoot free throws.

Perhaps you need to read the following posts. I already went over this material. Do try to keep up.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:01 PM
Reported

Nice. Notice how it's always the Lebronites who resort to name calling when they losing a debate.

Slug3
06-07-2013, 08:02 PM
Lebron is loved by refs and the league(stern). How else can you justify a player who plays "amazing defense" not being called for a single foul in many games. When I played ball, I was taught it you don't use up your fouls then you're not playing hard enough.

I would just think you would not be playing smart enough. Whoever was coaching you is saying that you need to foul out ever game or come close to it to show you are playing D.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:04 PM
What does getting fouls called for you have to do with shooting 50%? He has had all these years to do it and hasn't. Lets not forgot one other milestone Kobe is getting ready to break. The most missed shots in NBA history.

Wow...do I really need to explain how this works to you.

You do realize that when a player is fouled the score keepers wave off that shot attempt right? So if a player if fouled and the refs don't call it, it affects their fg% in a negative way.

I really can't believe I had to explain that to someone. You guys really need to learn the basics if you want to debate with me.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:05 PM
Lebron is loved by refs and the league(stern). How else can you justify a player who plays "amazing defense" not being called for a single foul in many games. When I played ball, I was taught it you don't use up your fouls then you're not playing hard enough.

Makes sense. Lebron...zero fouls in game one. :pity:

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:07 PM
lebron attacks the basket non stop and still only got like 6-7 attempts a night this year.

Guess Stern cracked down a bit now that he finally got handed a ring last year.

Look at years past, it was a joke how much love he got. Also, it's not only about him personally, it's about the team he is playing for in comparison to the teams he is playing against...

In 2008-2009 = The free throw disparity between the Cavs and their opponents in the playoffs increased over 300% in the Cavs Favor compared to the regular season

In 2009-2010 = The free throw disparity between the Cavs and their opponents in the playoffs increased over 67% in the Cavs Favor compared to the regular season

In 2010-2011 = The free throw disparity between the Heat and their opponents in the playoffs increased 340% in the Heat's Favor compared to the regular season

How much more obvious can you get???

bucketss
06-07-2013, 08:10 PM
It's an enormous part of his game. Are you being serious right now?

lmao!!! lebron hardly flopped all season, he only really started flopping when he came to miami, how the hell can flopping be an enormous part of anybodys game SMH,

bucketss
06-07-2013, 08:11 PM
Lebron is loved by refs and the league(stern). How else can you justify a player who plays "amazing defense" not being called for a single foul in many games. When I played ball, I was taught it you don't use up your fouls then you're not playing hard enough.

we're talking about Free throw attempts unless lebron is given free throws every time he doesn't foul somone than your post is useless.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 08:12 PM
lmao!!! you're such a tool, lebron hardly flopped all season, he only really started flopping when he came to miami, how the hell can flopping be an enormous part of anybodys game SMH,

It's a huge part of wade's game and Lebron picked it up from wade. Lebron wasn't really recognized as the NBA's best player until his flopping started, I know it's probably a coincidence just sayin though.
Also I'm not trying to be a troll, sorry if it comes off that way to you.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 08:13 PM
we're talking about Free throw attempts unless lebron is given free throws every time he doesn't foul somone than your post is useless.

I was alluding to his special treatment by refs?

bucketss
06-07-2013, 08:20 PM
It's a huge part of wade's game and Lebron picked it up from wade. Lebron wasn't really recognized as the NBA's best player until his flopping started, I know it's probably a coincidence just sayin though.
Also I'm not trying to be a troll, sorry if it comes off that way to you.

false, lebron was the best player since 2008, he only started flopping in 2011 and he only usually does it in the playoffs. its hilarious you think lebron is the best in league only because he flops wow. flopping really isn't that big of a advantage refs are stupid but not that stupid to allow it to be the staple of peoples games.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 08:56 PM
false, lebron was the best player since 2008, he only started flopping in 2011 and he only usually does it in the playoffs. its hilarious you think lebron is the best in league only because he flops wow. flopping really isn't that big of a advantage refs are stupid but not that stupid to allow it to be the staple of peoples games.

:laugh: I stopped reading after that.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 09:14 PM
:laugh: I stopped reading after that.

lebron,wade,lebron,wade,lebron,lebron, <---- best players since 2008

beliges
06-07-2013, 09:50 PM
:laugh: I stopped reading after that.

lebron,wade,lebron,wade,lebron,lebron, <---- best players since 2008

In the words of the Dude, "that's just like your opinion man." There was a guy winning title after title in LA that has a great argument for the best player in the league at that time. In fact, many people consider him the best for that time. However everyone is entitled to their opinion and thinking LBJ was the best is not all that far fetched.

ChitownSports16
06-07-2013, 09:55 PM
Lmao wade??

Kashmir13579
06-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Rodman is crazy, but i could maybe see less separation between Lebron and everyone else in the 80s, rather than how it is now.

Kashmir13579
06-07-2013, 10:03 PM
Lmao wade??

It only sounds idiotic coming from a Heat fan. I'd listen if someone else was making the argument.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 10:05 PM
Lmao wade??

is this a response to my post?

Beltrans Mole
06-07-2013, 10:14 PM
Rodman is ****ing clueless end of story

gwrighter
06-07-2013, 10:18 PM
This is so dumb. 6'8 270lb man would be dishing out the bruises back then let me tell you. IF LBJ wants to go through you, he's going through you.

RiceOnTheRun
06-07-2013, 10:26 PM
Everyone's saying handchecking this, handchecking that. Could you imagine if Lebron were allowed to hand check? Paul George would not get past him. Neither would Nate Robinson or Jennings/Ellis. He'd pick up KD with one hand. The only guys whole could probably face that would be Melo and other larger wing players.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 10:29 PM
Everyone's saying handchecking this, handchecking that. Could you imagine if Lebron were allowed to hand check? Paul George would not get past him. Neither would Nate Robinson or Jennings/Ellis. He'd pick up KD with one hand. The only guys whole could probably face that would be Melo and other larger wing players.

hes already a great defender, imagine if he could really put paws on people wow!

True Sports Fan
06-07-2013, 10:34 PM
Not sure about leflop being average, maybe above average...but I know his flops won't work to his advantage. Matter of fact, players from that era might get a little more "physical" if he starts flopping.

The irony of this coming from a Lakers fan....

True Sports Fan
06-07-2013, 10:38 PM
the 80s and 90s were an era of giants. back then, when a guard gets to the paint, in order to get a layup or dunk, he has to trifle with the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Mark Eaton just to name a few....all of these players are all-time greats in shot blocking. defensive 3 second rule? don't make me laugh. these guys will camp down there and make you regret for entering the paint. Jordan was able to succeed in this era. i'd like to see some of the great players of our era get the layups and dunks they get know with those players camping down there in the paint. who do players today have to trifle with when they get to the paint? Brook Lopez? :laugh2:

Uhhh Joakim Noah, Ibalka, Marc Gasol, Dwight to name a few.

Can't talk about great shot blockers then list a mediocre one from this era

carlthack
06-07-2013, 10:55 PM
Anybody else think its weird how all of the 90s Bulls players cant agree on this? Pippen thinks Lebron is better than Jordan, Jordan thinks Kobe is better than Lebron and Rodman thinks Lebron is just average. WTF?

Shlumpledink
06-07-2013, 10:57 PM
Because there were a plethora of super athletic 6 ft 8 260 pounders with guard skills in the 80s and 90s?

One thing to learn from ex ball players, is they are highly defensive about the era they played in. They always relate the current era worse than as to their respective era. Just look at how players from the 60s and 70s talk about Jordan.

NBA_Starter
06-07-2013, 10:59 PM
This guy has more than a few screws loose for sure!

b@llhog24
06-07-2013, 11:08 PM
Most players from the 80s and 90s say that. Doesn't make it remotely close to true.

Exactly.


this is also the guy who said kim jong eun was just a misunderstood nice guy.

:laugh:


that's stupid. watered down 90's extension competition would have gotten smacked up by the super-teams of today, and the elite defense of the early 2000's. every single "contender" from the 90's other than the Chicago Bulls would be eaten alive by todays elite teams. Chicagos competition in the finals during the 90's was a joke. Those 90's Knicks/Pacers/Heat/Blazers/Suns/Sonics/Jazz wouldn't stand a chance against todays elite teams in a best of seven.


LeBron would have dominated the 80's and 90's. a guy that size who's already DPOY caliber being able to hand-check? Good luck scoring on him.

i love how all these hand-check people never talk about how LeBron would be allowed to hand check himself and would have been an even more dominant defender? LBJ has the body to deal with the physicality of the 80's and 90's.


SRS does matter (Ive seen you use SRS to compare and contrast multiple times, why sour on it now?).

The league wasn't stronger in '98 than it was today. The global infusion of talent was at its earliest stages and the watered down extension of adding new teams over the previous decade was still an notable reality.



I imagine box-zones smothering them due to their lack of a decent supporting cast.



so what? just because they were the same age and came into the league at around the same time doesn't mean their bodies held up as well.

the '98 Rockets had a negative SRS JB (19th/29). Hakeem played 47 regular season games (he was dealing with injury and wasn't himself). Chuck only started 41 games, and Clyde missed 12 games himself.

Clyde posted a post-season PER of 14.2 (lowest post-season PER since 1986), Chuck- 16.2 (career playoff low at the time with a 4 point drop off in PER from the previous season), Dream- 18.8 (career playoff low at time- with a 9 point drop off in PER from the previous season).

how can you possibly sit there and say those guys weren't washed up? just because two players around their own age weren't washed up yet themselves? flawed logic.



because you're isolating the individual numbers of two players. I provided team statistics on a team game- which give us a more well rounded analysis.


inexperienced wing players with poor coaching left them vulnerable to the pick and roll. the point remains the same- todays Spurs and Heat wouldn't have struggled like the unprepared, inexperience, immature '98 Lakers.

Great posts.

carlthack
06-07-2013, 11:22 PM
the same dude who agreed with Zeke about Bird being considered average if he were black?

Don't care. The skinny *** SF's of the 80's and 90's would have been torched by Bron.

What Zeke and Rodman actually said was that the media over-hyped Larry Bird because he was white. And if he were black the media wouldn't have made him out to be larger than life and legendary, he would be another good player.

KniCks4LiFe
06-07-2013, 11:26 PM
Most players from the 80s and 90s say that. Doesn't make it remotely close to true.

why does everybody act like LeBron w/ his body type knowing he can play tougher would just fold? in this era he flops cuz it's the thing to do, in that era, other than his jumpshot, LeBron 6'8 250+ lbs. running arounding like Derrick Rose, does Rodman not realize this? he'd have been an average player. Most the competition in the league was average!

A few teams had 2 or 3 stars. Our Knicks had 1 legit star the rest was a borderline 6th man and we took that team the distance. LeBron James isn't some scrub.

The Flash
06-07-2013, 11:26 PM
Lol so Some old legends are pretty ****ing insecure... LeBron is so much better than all of them and it already starts with his character off and on the court . True team player with great game iq and incredible physical tools. No , he wouldn't have made it in the 80s and 90's because people are actually physically weaker and game strategies have not evolved in 30 years ...By your logic all sports are weaker than 20-30 years ago because we can't just say basketball is, right? Go ahead hate on LeBron because that's all you got, you wouldn't want him on your team because he's just an "average player"

amos1er
06-07-2013, 11:28 PM
lebron,wade,lebron,wade,lebron,lebron, <---- best players since 2008

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Stop it your killing me.

amos1er
06-07-2013, 11:31 PM
In the words of the Dude, "that's just like your opinion man." There was a guy winning title after title in LA that has a great argument for the best player in the league at that time. In fact, many people consider him the best for that time. However everyone is entitled to their opinion and thinking LBJ was the best is not all that far fetched.

Great post. In fact, Lebron himself considered Kobe the best at that time...not to mention 90% of the people's opinion's who matter.

KniCks4LiFe
06-07-2013, 11:34 PM
I love how basketball was played in that late 80's - mid 90's generation, but these oldschool vets need to STFU. Had LeBron been alive, his type of talent, put him w/ Ewing tell me they don't win a ship', put him w/ GP and Kemp and tell me they don't win a ship', put him w/ Shaq and Penny, tell me they don't win a ship', put him w/ Drexler and Olajuwon and tell me that's not a dynasty. STFU! He would have stopped the Bulls dynasty from becoming anything.

bucketss
06-07-2013, 11:37 PM
Great post. In fact, Lebron himself considered Kobe the best at that time...not to mention 90% of the people's opinion's who matter.

that was in 2007 when bron said that. if he did he must have been pretty damn high.

LBJackpot
06-07-2013, 11:51 PM
It's a huge part of wade's game and Lebron picked it up from wade. Lebron wasn't really recognized as the NBA's best player until his flopping started, I know it's probably a coincidence just sayin though.
Also I'm not trying to be a troll, sorry if it comes off that way to you.

And a huge part of Kobe's game is arm and head flailing also throwing elbows after his release. You probably just say hes being smart though because hes kobe.

jerellh528
06-07-2013, 11:53 PM
And a huge part of Kobe's game is arm and head flailing also throwing elbows after his release. You probably just say hes being smart though because hes kobe.

why are you bringing up kobe? lol sad

Maddog-99
06-07-2013, 11:55 PM
In his defense,

He is crazy.

LBJackpot
06-08-2013, 12:00 AM
Anybody that actually agrees with this wanna be North Korean they lose all right to ever say that they are "objective."

An average player? Im sorry but only an idiot would actually believe that. Im only 21 so I never got to really analyze the 90's very well but it seems like people overrate the **** out of the defenses. People could easily say Rodman would be a scrub today because the league is soft and Rodman needs to be physical. It would be stupid but same ****

bucketss
06-08-2013, 12:42 AM
Anybody that actually agrees with this wanna be North Korean they lose all right to ever say that they are "objective."

An average player? Im sorry but only an idiot would actually believe that. Im only 21 so I never got to really analyze the 90's very well but it seems like people overrate the **** out of the defenses. People could easily say Rodman would be a scrub today because the league is soft and Rodman needs to be physical. It would be stupid but same ****

rodman would foul out by half time every game, dude is scrub to be honest lmao

amos1er
06-08-2013, 12:46 AM
rodman would foul out by half time every game, dude is scrub to be honest lmao

lol, according to all you Lebronites, Rodman is better than Bosh.

bucketss
06-08-2013, 12:50 AM
lol, according to all you Lebronites, Rodman is better than Bosh.

battle for the title of rupaul, I'll go with chris.

amos1er
06-08-2013, 12:59 AM
battle for the title of rupaul, I'll go with chris.

I have only seen Rodman in drag, so I'll have to go with him. He has the sass to go with it too. Bosh just doesn't have the swagger to pull it off.

TopsyTurvy
06-08-2013, 01:36 AM
An average player? Im sorry but only an idiot would actually believe that. Im only 21 so I never got to really analyze the 90's very well but it seems like people overrate the **** out of the defenses.

You should really watch some of the vintage NBA playoffs when they run on NBA TV. I guarantee you won't regret watching some of the greats do work.

This video alone makes me want to watch that 90's Rockets team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22O2lApCBBs

bucketss
06-08-2013, 01:47 AM
I have only seen Rodman in drag, so I'll have to go with him. He has the sass to go with it too. Bosh just doesn't have the swagger to pull it off.

true. his play on the floor might be sissy but i don't think he would wear drag, btw bosh knows what he likes and hes not shy about it,:D

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/996583_478013042281270_2006738808_n.jpg

Denverbronco007
06-08-2013, 03:01 AM
I love it. What do you expect Rodman to say? He wants to boost his argument that he played in a tougher era. I don't care what you say, no one will be able to rebound 20 a game because of the rules. Rodman would have been a better version of Reggie Evans. We're talking about LeBron James. One of the greatest players ever. He's just going to be an average player? Someone also said he'll be an All Star? Lmao, the ignorance is high on this forum. He's better than Kobe Bryant. Are you saying Kobe would've been an average player as well? If we're going to treat these old school players like Gods, then we might as well consider the future like scums. Average player... LeBron is the greatest athlete in sports. He would dominate in any and every era of basketball. It's quite astonishing that all these old school players brag about their era while knowing there's absolutely no way to compare.

eyeball test. I compare with those. They seem to work pretty good. Not sure if Lebron is better than Kobe. Kobe has 5 championships, and has always been clutch. Kobe or Jordan never appeared to lose their confidence in a game like Lebron did against the Mavs a few years ago in the finals.

Shlumpledink
06-08-2013, 03:50 AM
You should really watch some of the vintage NBA playoffs when they run on NBA TV. I guarantee you won't regret watching some of the greats do work.

This video alone makes me want to watch that 90's Rockets team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22O2lApCBBs

Olajuwon was a gangster, and underrated for what he was. My favorite player growing up, and the Rockets were my favorite team.

But the league was not filled with Hakeem Olajuwons, the Rockets themselves were frustrating to watch. You had a player that was a living legend in hakeem, and he was on a team that didn't really have the athletes to match his game. Vernon Maxwell was our best perimeter player, and he was highly erratic. He could lock in on jordan one night, and then fall asleep the next game. Our best athlete by far, but he was still only 6'4 180. Our small forward 6'7 190.

Teams may not have better superstars, but the league as a whole is a whole lot more competitive. Instead of having 3 or 4 good/decent guys and 8 stiffs, you have 8 good/decent guys and 4 stiffs.

It's heavily romanticized in the minds of a lot of nba fans that the league has somehow gotten worse over time, despite the advance of training, nutrition, and the influx of highly talented international players. It's usually an effect of nostalgia. Most thinks in the past that we think about are better, or more pleasant somehow. Tv was better, video games were better, music was better, sports were better. Meanwhile athletic records have been broken continually, showing that as we advanced through time we become more athletic.

bootleg42
06-08-2013, 04:04 AM
It was certainly a much more physical era, and there was no shortage of quick, big men in the league back then. I wouldn't say "average," but LeBron would have far more knots and welts on his head than he does presently.

Back in the 80's and 90's, players would basically get clotheslined and it wouldn't be a big deal, as it was a norm.

Today, just barely touching someone gets that someone to the line.

LeBron would have been good, but not the best in the league.

Consider the 90's. The Knicks back then would have had Anthony Mason or Charles Oakley basically rock-bottoming LeBron James.

If LeBron had faced the Sonics of the mid-90's, he would have had a ton of turnovers.

Jordan would have probably psyched out LeBron with his words alone (Jordan was a big trash talker).

I'm sure plenty of 90's fans could think of plenty of scenarios where a particular defense would have had the ability to give LeBron problems.

amos1er
06-08-2013, 05:09 AM
eyeball test. I compare with those. They seem to work pretty good. Not sure if Lebron is better than Kobe. Kobe has 5 championships, and has always been clutch. Kobe or Jordan never appeared to lose their confidence in a game like Lebron did against the Mavs a few years ago in the finals.

Yes. **** these Lebroite nuthuggers. They never will seem to realize this. They will always resort to their Hollinger stats when the chips are down. Lebron may be a regular season dynamo in terms of being a stat collector and that has translated into some regular season MVP's when faced with a weak east schedule, but the true test is winning! Lebron has had super stacked teams of legend these past few seasons, all capable of winning titles in comparison to his all time great predecessors. Lets see him put his money where his mouth is. Not one...not two...not three...not four...not five...not six...not seven...LMAO!!! See you in Cleveland Lebron, now that they have had two number one picks since your departure. Take your talents to where they have stacked teams and you can let them down in the post season like you always have...unless your team is super stacked and it's a lock out season of course where your opponents have been hand picked by none other than David Stern. Won't have that luxury now that Stern has been shamed into early retirement. Should be interesting to see the fate of the chosen one now that his puppeteer has been removed from office...

Shlumpledink
06-08-2013, 05:28 AM
Back in the 80's and 90's, players would basically get clotheslined and it wouldn't be a big deal, as it was a norm.

Today, just barely touching someone gets that someone to the line.

LeBron would have been good, but not the best in the league.

Consider the 90's. The Knicks back then would have had Anthony Mason or Charles Oakley basically rock-bottoming LeBron James.

If LeBron had faced the Sonics of the mid-90's, he would have had a ton of turnovers.

Jordan would have probably psyched out LeBron with his words alone (Jordan was a big trash talker).

I'm sure plenty of 90's fans could think of plenty of scenarios where a particular defense would have had the ability to give LeBron problems.

Jordan experienced a heavy benefit of whistles in his career. That is a poor argument to make against Lebron and ignore what Jordan got. If Lebron played back then he could have been the beneficiary as much as Jordan was. There is a great video that illustrates the kinds of calls jordan got, if you were so inclined.

amos1er
06-08-2013, 05:55 AM
Jordan experienced a heavy benefit of whistles in his career. That is a poor argument to make against Lebron and ignore what Jordan got. If Lebron played back then he could have been the beneficiary as much as Jordan was. There is a great video that illustrates the kinds of calls jordan got, if you were so inclined.

OMG please don't tell me you are actually comparing Lebron to Jordan. LMAO!!!

Jordan had far less help and accomplished a lot more. Lebron fails to compare in all arenas of importance especially mental toughness.

tdg823
06-08-2013, 07:47 AM
Love that argument. Bron had to go get his help, he wasn't gifted the help. And you yourself are claiming the age deal, while forgetting this entire generation of youth flip jobs like candy, unlike the generations before. Loyalty in sports, and business, is gone, for good reason.

Loyalty in sports and loyalty in business are 2 completely different things, one motivated by excessive self-interest, the other by adaptive survival instincts (maybe that last part overstates it a bit, but it's really along the lines of my point).

amos1er
06-08-2013, 07:53 AM
Loyalty in sports and loyalty in business are 2 completely different things, one motivated by excessive self-interest, the other by adaptive survival instincts (maybe that last part overstates it a bit, but it's really along the lines of my point).

Lebron needed to continue to sell jerseys and market himself as the "Chosen One". He couldn't get the job done with a conventional team, thus he formed a super-team. Guess that falls both under self-interest and survival instincts...go figure.

amos1er
06-08-2013, 08:12 AM
true. his play on the floor might be sissy but i don't think he would wear drag, btw bosh knows what he likes and hes not shy about it,:D

http://www.google.com/search?q=rodman+rupaul+drag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Px-zUdPVOImiigKPlYGoBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1275&bih=904#tbm=isch&sa=1&q=rodman+drag&oq=rodman+drag&gs_l=img.3..0.17040.18182.0.19011.7.7.0.0.0.0.94.4 65.7.7.0.ernk_timepromotiona..0.0...1.1.16.img.rA8 2-fmRSMs&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47534661,d.cGE&fp=acf95bfc85660c03&biw=1275&bih=904&facrc=_&imgrc=bjH1us2GiczewM%3A%3B10DmV-ts50Y8PM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fdubsism.files.wordpr ess.com%252F2012%252F05%252Fdennis-rodman-drag-1.jpg%253Fw%253D451%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fdubsism.w ordpress.com%252F2012%252F05%252F30%252Fdennis-rodman-strikes-a-blow-for-drunks-everywhere%252Fdennis-rodman-drag-1%252F%3B451%3B401

eugene
06-08-2013, 08:38 AM
Totally agree...


It was certainly a much more physical era, and there was no shortage of quick, big men in the league back then. I wouldn't say "average," but LeBron would have far more knots and welts on his head than he does presently.

NYKalltheway
06-08-2013, 09:11 AM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1



thanks for this :)

Chrisclover
06-08-2013, 11:42 AM
Rodman is a lebron hater, no doubt

RiceOnTheRun
06-08-2013, 11:49 AM
Back in the 80's and 90's, players would basically get clotheslined and it wouldn't be a big deal, as it was a norm.

Today, just barely touching someone gets that someone to the line.

LeBron would have been good, but not the best in the league.

Consider the 90's. The Knicks back then would have had Anthony Mason or Charles Oakley basically rock-bottoming LeBron James.

If LeBron had faced the Sonics of the mid-90's, he would have had a ton of turnovers.

Jordan would have probably psyched out LeBron with his words alone (Jordan was a big trash talker).

I'm sure plenty of 90's fans could think of plenty of scenarios where a particular defense would have had the ability to give LeBron problems.

Conversely, imagine Lebron on that Pistons team, smacking the hell outta you any time you try to come near the rim. You severely underestimate his strength. I don't think it's even debatable that he's the beat athlete to ever play basketball, even his haters can at least acknowledge that much. If he could play that physical with KD, no competition whatsoever. No wing player would be able to touch him, it'd take a 4/5 to stop him.

bucketss
06-08-2013, 01:43 PM
Conversely, imagine Lebron on that Pistons team, smacking the hell outta you any time you try to come near the rim. You severely underestimate his strength. I don't think it's even debatable that he's the beat athlete to ever play basketball, even his haters can at least acknowledge that much. If he could play that physical with KD, no competition whatsoever. No wing player would be able to touch him, it'd take a 4/5 to stop him.

exactly, lebron is one strong beast, he had hibbert bouncing off of him a couple times, hibbert is a pretty big dude nearly 300 pounds maybe over.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2013, 01:59 PM
What Zeke and Rodman actually said was that the media over-hyped Larry Bird because he was white. And if he were black the media wouldn't have made him out to be larger than life and legendary, he would be another good player.

He actually said Bird would be just "another good guy" instead of being considered the best player in the game if he were black, agreed, but Zeke had his stupid agenda. And idiot boy followed him.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2013, 02:03 PM
Loyalty in sports and loyalty in business are 2 completely different things, one motivated by excessive self-interest, the other by adaptive survival instincts (maybe that last part overstates it a bit, but it's really along the lines of my point).

disagree completely. They are a generational impulse, in any business.

LBJackpot
06-08-2013, 04:32 PM
Lebron needed to continue to sell jerseys and market himself as the "Chosen One". He couldn't get the job done with a conventional team, thus he formed a super-team. Guess that falls both under self-interest and survival instincts...go figure.

Ya everybody knows LeBron went to Miami to sell more jerseys. Its so obvious. Do you actually believe what you write?

Ive never seen somebody consistently spew bs over and over and over and over and over again like you. Even Rodman would think youre a psycho.

bucketss
06-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Lebron needed to continue to sell jerseys and market himself as the "Chosen One". He couldn't get the job done with a conventional team, thus he formed a super-team. Guess that falls both under self-interest and survival instincts...go figure.

the whole chosen one thing died a few years ago, that was good marketing for when he was a fresh face phenom, he just went through marketing himself as the villan, and now is on his championship swag:cool:

SLY WILLIAMS
06-08-2013, 04:57 PM
Rodman sometimes has a hard time putting his thoughts in to words. Many people cut the quote off after the average stuff but Dennis said don't get him wrong. Lebron is a great player a hell of a player in the same interview. I do not think he really meant Lebron would be average. I just think he was trying to get across that there is a Lebron level and then there is a MJ level. They are not at the same levels. He feels MJ is a step above. I agree with that.

hoggin88
06-08-2013, 05:19 PM
Apparently the human population started sucking at basketball starting in 1998. Now even the very best players today would just be decent sixth man options in the 90's.

I will agree with him on his Bosh comments though. He definitely would have shut down Bosh defensively.

Shlumpledink
06-08-2013, 05:27 PM
Lebron James athleticism would be comparable to Shawn Kemp of that era, but Lebron has much more depth to his game on both sides of the ball. He is also stronger. I don't know who would be able to guard him in that era.

LongWayFromHome
06-08-2013, 06:23 PM
disagree completely. They are a generational impulse, in any business.

Everybody is just doing what they think is best for them. Even when somebody does something seemingly considerate it is normally because in some way they think it is good for them. The reason people are "less loyal" than they used to be is because both the employees and the owners have become less patient. In most cases a business paying somebody a little more to keep them on is better for the business and obviously the employee is going to stay because it is the highest paying/most secure thing available for them. There is no patience anymore. Its why companies like Ford and GM suck. Everybody is looking for money now and not concerned about their future.

But the route of NBA players being less loyal is because they are smart enough to know the franchise has no concern about being loyal.

LongWayFromHome
06-08-2013, 06:25 PM
Lebron James athleticism would be comparable to Shawn Kemp of that era, but Lebron has much more depth to his game on both sides of the ball. He is also stronger. I don't know who would be able to guard him in that era.

Dennis Rodman would probably do the best job. That would have been pretty awesome to see.

LongWayFromHome
06-08-2013, 06:27 PM
Rodman sometimes has a hard time putting his thoughts in to words. Many people cut the quote off after the average stuff but Dennis said don't get him wrong. Lebron is a great player a hell of a player in the same interview. I do not think he really meant Lebron would be average. I just think he was trying to get across that there is a Lebron level and then there is a MJ level. They are not at the same levels. He feels MJ is a step above. I agree with that.

Sooooooooooooooo true. You can tell, by the way Rodman played the game and if you concentrate really hard while he is speaking, he is pretty intelligent. Unfortunately his communication skills are HORRIBLE so it makes him sound like a moron.

GottaBelieve
06-08-2013, 06:36 PM
I'm no LeBron fan but dude is a freak athlete. He is incredibly gifted and I'm willing to bet he would be able to adjust his game to be a premier player in any era of the sport.

Can't compare him to Jordan yet IMO because of the rings and the general swagger and bigger than the game presence Jordan had - but there aren't many guys in the history of the game I'd compare to Jordan - if any.

Leach11
06-08-2013, 06:52 PM
Lebron needed to continue to sell jerseys and market himself as the "Chosen One". He couldn't get the job done with a conventional team, thus he formed a super-team. Guess that falls both under self-interest and survival instincts...go figure.

Jordan and Kobe did NOT have conventional teams. Jordan played with one of the 50 greatest players ever and the greatest rebounder of all time. Every team Kobe has every won a championship with has been loaded with talent. He wasn't even the best player on his team for three of the titles he's won.

Both Jordan and Kobe had far superior teams than Lebron's team in Cleveland. This is unarguable. I would love for you to make an attempt.

How about you quit with your childish and utterly rediculous narrative against Lebron, and learn to accept that you are watching one of the game's greats.

Jayb587
06-08-2013, 07:04 PM
Rodman is a ******** hordan lover. I don't even like lebron and i know this is false. Zobe was illegal back then as was double teams. How would Jordan fare getting trapped every night rather then being played one on one luke he was back then. No one in any era can gaurd bron ir many other pmayers if this era one on one. This statement by Rodman is laughable

KingPosey
06-08-2013, 07:13 PM
Lol LBJ could never be average as long as he has his physical tools. Things would be harder on him but he just wouldn't be average

KingPosey
06-08-2013, 07:14 PM
Rodman is a ******** hordan lover. I don't even like lebron and i know this is false. Zobe was illegal back then as was double teams. How would Jordan fare getting trapped every night rather then being played one on one luke he was back then. No one in any era can gaurd bron ir many other pmayers if this era one on one. This statement by Rodman is laughable
It was not illegal to double team guys lol.

effen5
06-08-2013, 07:17 PM
Rodman is a ******** hordan lover. I don't even like lebron and i know this is false. Zobe was illegal back then as was double teams. How would Jordan fare getting trapped every night rather then being played one on one luke he was back then. No one in any era can gaurd bron ir many other pmayers if this era one on one. This statement by Rodman is laughable
You sound ********...you have no idea what you're talking about.

JeremiahWing
06-08-2013, 07:46 PM
Rodman is an utter tool box, especially after North Korea.

But he has a bit of a point. Jordan would have eaten LeBron's lunch every post season.

tdg823
06-08-2013, 08:06 PM
disagree completely. They are a generational impulse, in any business.

Lack of loyalty in business is reciprocal. Businesses have an abundance of cheap labor, there fore in vast majority of lower/middle class fields, businesses treat employees as disposable/worthless. This lack of investment is showing up in the workplace in the way of employees similarly treating their jobs as disposable/worthless. Sports (and loyalty therein) is an entirely different dynamic altogether.

Swarley91
06-08-2013, 08:55 PM
Rodman is just telling it like it is. Truth hurts, huh?

Hawkeye15
06-08-2013, 08:56 PM
Everybody is just doing what they think is best for them. Even when somebody does something seemingly considerate it is normally because in some way they think it is good for them. The reason people are "less loyal" than they used to be is because both the employees and the owners have become less patient. In most cases a business paying somebody a little more to keep them on is better for the business and obviously the employee is going to stay because it is the highest paying/most secure thing available for them. There is no patience anymore. Its why companies like Ford and GM suck. Everybody is looking for money now and not concerned about their future.

But the route of NBA players being less loyal is because they are smart enough to know the franchise has no concern about being loyal.

Now this I agree with.

And I still find it ironic that fans will give credit to a Duncan, and crush LeBron for loyalty. My guess is that if Cleveland would have given him chip help from day 1 thru age 35, he was staying...

Hawkeye15
06-08-2013, 08:58 PM
Lack of loyalty in business is reciprocal. Businesses have an abundance of cheap labor, there fore in vast majority of lower/middle class fields, businesses treat employees as disposable/worthless. This lack of investment is showing up in the workplace in the way of employees similarly treating their jobs as disposable/worthless. Sports (and loyalty therein) is an entirely different dynamic altogether.

Show me how sports are different, and I agree completely with your business statement.

Bravo95
06-08-2013, 09:07 PM
http://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/343530890305105921

TMac: "They should have these guys go to school for 2 years. League is so young. Hate it to say it but talent in the league is pretty down."

effen5
06-08-2013, 09:46 PM
http://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/343530890305105921

I agree with this x 100000000000 when did he say this!

dodie53
06-08-2013, 11:35 PM
dennis "wrongman"

rocketfuel
06-09-2013, 12:09 AM
I think Jordan would still be the greatest player in any era and his Bulls would dominate these Miami Heat. That being said, Lebron would still be a great player in the 80s, 90s or whatever era. Just because the Jordan Bulls were that great doesn't really take away from the fact that Lebron has a lot of talent.

That being said, I do wonder how Lebron would stack up in matchups with Pippen, Bird and Dominique Wilkens? Maybe, someone should put up a thread on that. Pippen was an all world defender....a super athlete. Bird had mad skills and a will to win....and Dominique literally looked like he could jump out of the gym.

lol, please
06-09-2013, 12:13 AM
Rodman is right, LeBron in the 80s and 90s would be pedestrian at best. The Lakers, Celtics, even the freaking Warriors of the early 90s would run the 2013 Heat off of their own floor at their best.

bucketss
06-09-2013, 12:19 AM
there are some god awful poster on this forum, i don't even know when they're trolling anymore.

OceanSpray
06-09-2013, 12:21 AM
Rodman is right, LeBron in the 80s and 90s would be pedestrian at best. The Lakers, Celtics, even the freaking Warriors of the early 90s would run the 2013 Heat off of their own floor at their best.

Muggsy was an average player during that era. Are you saying he would've been better than LeBron in this era? C'mon, which is it? Also, since LeBron is better than Kobe right now, is Kobe a below average player? I guess everyone from this era is a below average player and that the 80's/90's were all Gods that were untouchable. Those players back then were human. They would get tired, hurt, and miss shots. They aren't Gods like you think they are. Stop worshiping them and move on with the past. Damn nostalgic fools.

Bravo95
06-09-2013, 01:51 AM
I agree with this x 100000000000 when did he say this!
Kennedy posted the quote Saturday afternoon when he put out his interview with McGrady (Interview Link (http://www.hoopsworld.com/mcgrady-discusses-journey-to-nba-finals))

http://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/343522071399247873

Over the last two days, Tracy McGrady repeatedly said that there are too many boys in the NBA now. He feels two-year rule would help that.

SportsFanatic10
06-09-2013, 02:50 AM
:pity: so dumb...

Mell413
06-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Rodman is being basketball stupid here. Anyone who agrees with Rodman here is a basketball idiot. It's that simple.

beliges
06-09-2013, 12:14 PM
Rodman is right, LeBron in the 80s and 90s would be pedestrian at best. The Lakers, Celtics, even the freaking Warriors of the early 90s would run the 2013 Heat off of their own floor at their best.

Doubt it. Miami has as much talent as any of those 80s teams.

OceanSpray
06-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Tracy McGrady said there's too many boys? Is this the guy who went to China to play because he couldn't handle the NBA?

mike_noodles
06-09-2013, 01:39 PM
The evolution of the game leads me to believe that Rodman is wrong. Athletes get bigger, stronger, faster with each generation, you see it across the board in all sports. So to say Lebron, as the best player in the league, would only be an average player a generation and a half ago is wrong. People forget that he would be allowed to be more physical too, it works both ways.

mike_noodles
06-09-2013, 01:42 PM
Tracy McGrady said there's too many boys? Is this the guy who went to China to play because he couldn't handle the NBA?

And came from high school, and took many years to mature himself? What a hypocrite.

koreancabbage
06-09-2013, 01:49 PM
Tmac can't play with the boys, who are by far more talented than him now. when he took everything for granted, now look at him. what a scrub.

he came from High School, so what the **** is he talking about.

PurpleJesus
06-09-2013, 02:07 PM
90's players are obsessed with their decade...its become a little ridiculous. Truth is, some stars in todays era would have a hard time playing in the 90's, and some stars from the 90's would have problems playing now.

Bravo95
06-09-2013, 03:35 PM
http://m.usatoday.com/article/sports/nba/2405719

"I actually think they should implement having these guys go to school for two years," McGrady said. "What is it, one year now? At least go to school for two years because the league is so young. I think we need to build our league up. I mean, I hate to say it, but the talent in this league is pretty down."

McGrady admits that it wasn't easy for him to transition to the NBA lifestyle as a teenager.

"It was pretty difficult becoming a man so early and competing against grown men," McGrady said. "You're the best player on the floor in high school and then you come face the best players in the world. Also, the transition to living on your own, having to deal with the traveling, dealing with the different climaxes, getting into cities at 2 or 3 in the morning and then waking up the next morning for shootarounds and practices. I mean, it was a culture shock."

McGrady believes that attending college "probably would have" better prepared him for the NBA. However, he doesn't regret his route to the league.

When asked why he decided to bypass college and go straight to the pros, McGrady said bluntly, "Well, let's see, adidas gave me a $12 million contract. I mean, (expletive), enough said."

K.I.N.G.
06-09-2013, 03:59 PM
Dennis Rodman was nothing more than an average player himself. He would know best.

Sssmush
06-09-2013, 04:49 PM
I like what Rodman said about Lebron not having as much "flash" to his game as players like MJ and Kobe did/do.

That's something I've noticed... maybe it is Lebron making it look easy sometimes, but it's just like simple bounce pass, kind of set shot, simple drive layup. It's not always that amazing, and it seems like players really play off him. But we've seen when he loses a series/game that he is not really that Kobe/Durant/MJ type guy that can just go wild and throw in 50 points against tough defense, and he is also capable of being beat on defense sometimes.

I mean Lebron is clearly an awesome player and his stats are awesome. But maybe we're just saying he could've been even better with a better coach? Or maybe that he would've been even better in the MJ/Rodman era.

OceanSpray
06-09-2013, 11:27 PM
LeBron James. 260 LBS. 6"8. Never seen an athlete of his nature.

Okay, you push him around.. Good.

Just imagine if James was allowed to push you as well. Imagine James running over to Jordan and shoving him. Imagine if James decided to use his power for bad intentions. Well, you get the idea.

Jesse2272
06-10-2013, 06:17 AM
Rodman smoking that good ish

effen5
06-10-2013, 01:02 PM
LeBron James. 260 LBS. 6"8. Never seen an athlete of his nature.

Okay, you push him around.. Good.

Just imagine if James was allowed to push you as well. Imagine James running over to Jordan and shoving him. Imagine if James decided to use his power for bad intentions. Well, you get the idea.

No matter how big Lebron is, no team is more physical than the bad boys Pistons...that was just beyond ridiculous what they got away with on Jordan.

OceanSpray
06-10-2013, 01:31 PM
No matter how big Lebron is, no team is more physical than the bad boys Pistons...that was just beyond ridiculous what they got away with on Jordan.

No one got away with anything. Jordan got free throws and was babysitted by the NBA. Reggie Miller was punched by Jordan and guess who got ejected? You guys like to point out how dirty the Pistons were.. Imagine if LeBron was able to push them around. No matter how big? What does that even mean? The bigger you are, the more damage you can cause.

ramsizzle
06-10-2013, 01:50 PM
No one got away with anything. Jordan got free throws and was babysitted by the NBA. Reggie Miller was punched by Jordan and guess who got ejected? You guys like to point out how dirty the Pistons were.. Imagine if LeBron was able to push them around. No matter how big? What does that even mean? The bigger you are, the more damage you can cause.

Being that large means squat. He's the best in the game, but he is no tough guy.

Heatcheck
06-10-2013, 02:53 PM
^ Based off what??? im not saying he IS, but there isnt anything that says he's soft. Because he hasnt puched someone?

Chronz
06-10-2013, 02:57 PM
Being that large means squat. He's the best in the game, but he is no tough guy.

Being tough means squat if your not big.

Put it this way, CP3 is a tough player but I wouldn't say hes better equipped to handling physicality than the man whos built like a tank.

Rather be big than be perceived as tough.

Lo Porto
06-10-2013, 03:23 PM
The game in the 90's was a bit more physical, but it was being played by guys who are less athletic than today. The game back then was more about skill and sizewith speed being an afterthought really. Think of the size back then - Cartwright, Perdue, Smits, Parrish, Mutombo, Ewing, Longley, Ostertag, etc. All slow, but key members to great teams.

Today, it's all about the combination of size and speed with skill being the 3rd requirement. You've got guys like Birdman, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Ibaka, etc. There are so few slow guys in the league. If a guy is slow, he's only a specialist (Bonner, Okur, etc.). Even then, those guys don't play that often.

It's harder to score now than I think it's ever been due to the athleticism. Jordan could score about as well as anybody ever, but he never had to play against defenders like Tony Allen, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron, or other guys who are elite perimeter defenders. In Jordan's day, there were 3 fantastic perimeter defenders - Jordan himself, Scottie Pippen and Joe Dumars. But by today's standards, Dumars wouldn't be considered an elite defender since he's not as athletically gifted as half the league and he was only 6'4".

Aapox
06-10-2013, 03:25 PM
Only 3 fantastic perimeter defenders in Jordan era? wut

h2r09
06-10-2013, 03:26 PM
lol consider the source. not exactly reliable.

JC_
06-10-2013, 03:52 PM
I like what Rodman said about Lebron not having as much "flash" to his game as players like MJ and Kobe did/do.

That's something I've noticed... maybe it is Lebron making it look easy sometimes, but it's just like simple bounce pass, kind of set shot, simple drive layup.

It's his body type. He's built like solid like a truck which doesn't lend itself to finesse-type moves. Guys like Jordan or even Vince Carter are a different body type, they could make things look extra-special with the way they moved. Kobe basically pretended he was Jordan in the mirror until he could pull it off.

OceanSpray
06-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Only 3 fantastic perimeter defenders in Jordan era? wut

There's about 5x better defenders than there was back then.

JordansBulls
06-10-2013, 04:35 PM
There's about 5x better defenders than there was back then.

Video of Michael Jordan vs real defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Top 50 perimeter defenders to face Michael Jordan
(not in order, this is not a countdown)
Grant Hill - Height 6'8"
Sean Elliott - Height 6'8"
Robert Reid - Height 6'8"
Jerry Reynolds - Height 6'8"
Walt Williams - Height 6'8"
Malik Sealy - Height 6'8"
Shawn Marion - Height 6'7"
Bruce Bowen - Height 6'7"
Lionel Simmons - Height 6'7"
Calbert Cheaney - Height 6'7"
Penny Hardaway - Height 6'7"
Bryon Russell - Height 6'7"
Clyde Drexler - Height 6'7"
Reggie Miller - Height 6'7"
Purvis Short - Height 6'7"
Tony Campbell - Height 6'7"
Dale Ellis - Height 6'7"
Steve Smith - Height 6'7"
Reggie Theus - Height 6'7"
Glen Rice - Height 6'7"
Alex English - Height 6'7"
Reggie Williams - Height 6'7"
Dominique Wilkins - Height 6'7"
Nick Anderson - Height 6'6"(typo in vid)
Gerald Wilkins - Height 6'6"
Rolando Blackman - Height 6'6"
Stacey Augmon - Height 6'6"
Doug Christie - Height 6'6"
Craig Ehlo - Height 6'6''
Ron Harper - Height 6'6"
Chris Mullin - Height 6'6"
Jim Jackson - Height 6'6"
Kobe Bryant - Height 6'6"
Ron Artest - Height 6'6"
Paul Pierce - Height 6'6"
Michael Ray Richardson - Height 6'5"
Mario Ellie - Height 6'5"
Mitch Richmond - Height 6'5"
Michael Cooper - Height 6'5"
Kendall Gill - Height 6'5"
Kerry Kittles - Height 6'5"
Raja Bell - Height 6'5"
Mike Woodson - Height 6'5"
Gary Payton - Height 6'4"
Lester Conner - Height 6'4"
Dennis Johnson - Height 6'4"
Jeff Malone - Height 6'4"
Joe Dumars - Height 6'3"
John Starks - Height 6'3"
Jeff Hornacek - Height 6'3"

HONORABLE MENTION LIST:
Hedo Turkoglu 6'10", Rashard Lewis 6'10", Terry Cummings 6'9", Cliff Robinson 6'9", James Worthy 6'9", Stromile Swift 6'9", Peja Stojakovic 6'9", Zach Randolph 6'9", Larry Bird 6'9", Billy Owens 6'8", LaPhonso Ellis 6'8", Magic Johnson 6'8", Devean George 6'8", Stephen Jackson 6'8", Kiki Vandeweghe 6'8", Antoine Walker 6'8", Kenny Walker 6'8", Eddie Robinson 6'8", Jalen Rose 6'8", Chuck Person 6'8", Donald Royal 6'8", Dennis Scott 6'8", Joe Johnson 6'8", Anthony Bonner 6'8", Tracy McGrady 6'8", Jumaine Jones 6'8", Jamal Mashburn 6'8", Richard Dumas 6'7", Michael Finley 6'7", Rick Fox 6'7", George Gervin 6'7", Richard Jefferson 6'7", Scottie Pippen 6'7", Wally Szczerbiak 6'7", Tracy Murray 6'7", Ron Mercer 6'7", Vince Carter 6'7", Chill Anderson 6'7", Johnny Newman 6'7", Terry Tyler 6'7", Reggie Lewis 6'7", Scott Burrell 6'7", Duane Ferrell 6'7", Anthony Bowie 6'6", Cedric Ceballos 6'6", Ty Corbin 6'6", Mark Aguirre 6'6", Jim Paxson 6'6", Brent Barry 6'6", Mario Bennett 6'6", Walter Bond 6'6", Ricky Davis 6'6'', Shandon Anderson 6'6", Jamal Crawford 6'6" , Julius Erving 6'6", Latrell Sprewell 6'6", Allan Houston 6'6", Pete Myers 6'6", Eddie Jones 6'6", Corey Maggette 6'6'', Dan Majerle 6'6", Anthony Parker 6'6", Brian Shaw 6'6", Wesley Person 6'6", Michael Redd 6'6", Jason Richardson 6'6", Rip Hamilton 6'6", Jerry Stackhouse 6'6", Lucious Harris 6'5", Aaron Mckie 6'5", Harold Miner 6'5", Bonzi Wells 6'5", Bobby Phills 6'5", Trent Tucker 6'5", Terence Stansbury 6'5", DeShawn Stevenson 6'5", Ray Allen 6'5",David Wingate 6'5", Isaiah Rider 6'5", Adrian Dantley 6'5", Hubert Davis 6'5", Kevin Gamble 6'5", Jeff Grayer 6'5", Sarunas Marciulionis 6'5", Voshon Lenard 6'4", Rex Chapman 6'4", Vinny Del Negro 6'4", Danny Ainge 6'4", Jason Kidd 6'4", Jon Barry 6'4", Anthony Peeler 6'4", Cuttino Mobley 6'4", Greg Graham 6'4", Sidney Moncrief 6'3", Gilbert Arenas 6'3", Kenny Smith 6'3", LaBradford Smith 6'3", Jamaal Tinsley 6'3", Sam Cassell 6'3", Baron Davis 6'3", Steve Francis 6'3", Rod Strickland 6'3", Kirk Hinrich 6'3", Byron Scott 6'3", Alvin Robertson 6'3", Hersey Hawkins 6'3", Terry Porter 6'3", Stephon Marbury 6'2", Lindsey Hunter 6'2", Sedale Threatt 6'2", Mark Jackson 6'1", Isiah Thomas 6'1", John Stockton 6'1", Nick Van Exel 6'1", Tim Hardaway 6'0", Allen Iverson 6'0", Mark Price 6'0", David Wesley 6'0",

Top 50 interior defenders to face Michael Jordan
(not in order, this is not a countdown)
Manute Bol 7'6",
Yao Ming 7'6"
Shawn Bradley 7'5"
Rik Smits 7'4",
Ralph Sampson 7'4"
Mark Eaton 7'3"
Dikembe Mutombo 7'2",
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 7'2",
Artis Gilmore 7'2",
Greg Ostertag 7'2"
Shaq O'Neal 7'1",
David Robinson 7'1",
Tree Rollins 7'1",
Tyson Chandler 7'1",
Vlade Divac 7'1"
Hakeem Olajuwon 7'0",
Patrick Ewing 7'0",
Benoit Benjamin 7'0",
Tim Duncan 7'0",
James Edwards 7'0",
Robert Parish 7'0"
Kevin Garnett 6'11",
Ervin Johnson Jr 6'11",
Marcus Camby 6'11",
Jermaine O'Neal 6'11",
Andrew Lang 6'11",
Roy Tarpley 6'11",
Bill Laimbeer 6'11",
Hot Rod Williams 6'11"
Alonzo Mourning 6'10",
Moses Malone 6'10",
Larry Nance 6'10",
Tom Gugliotta 6'10",
Theo Ratliff 6'10",
Rick Mahorn 6'10",
Shawn Kemp 6'10",
Danny Manning 6'10",
Clifford Robinson 6'10",
Kevin McHale 6'10"
Antonio McDyess 6'9",
Kenyon Martin 6'9",
Ben Wallace 6'9",
Pervis Ellison 6'9",
Andrei Kirilenko 6'9",
Chris Webber 6'9"
Bo Outlaw 6'8",
Elton Brand 6'8"
Dennis Rodman 6'7",
Jerome Kersey 6'7",
Xavier McDaniel 6'7"

HONORABLE MENTION:
Gheorghe Muresan 7'7", Priest Lauderdale 7'4", Arvydas Sabonis 7'3'', Zydrunas Ilgauskas 7'3", Rich King 7'2", Luc Longley 7'2", Bill Cartwright 7'1", Sam Bowie 7'1", Kevin Duckworth 7'0", William Bedford 7'0", Felton Spencer 7'0", Stanley Roberts 7'0", Rich Kelley 7'0", Kevin Willis 7'0", Brad Daugherty 7'0", Duane Causwell 7'0", Matt Geiger 7'0", Jon Koncak 7'0", Bryant Reeves 7'0", Alton Lister 7'0", Scot Pollard 6'11", Olden Polynice 6'11", Christian Laettner 6'11", Jamaal Magloire 6'11", Brad Lohaus 6'11", Mikki Moore 6'11", Brad Miller 6'11", Melvin Turpin 6'11", Elden Campbell 6'11", Darryl Dawkins 6'11", Stacey King 6'11", Jack Sikma 6'11", Rony Seikaly 6'11", Dale Davis 6'11", Horace Grant 6'10", Mychal Thompson 6'10", Adonal Foyle 6'10", Chris Gatling 6'10", Danny Ferry 6'10", Derrick Coleman 6'10", Terry Mills 6'10", Juwan Howard 6'9", Antoine Carr 6'9", Darius Miles 6'9", Tom Chambers 6'9", Al Harrington 6'9", Antonio Davis 6'9", Armon Gilliam 6'9", Frank Brickowski 6'9", Karl Malone 6'9", Sam Perkins 6'9", Otis Thorpe 6'9", Brian Grant 6'9", Wayman Tisdale 6'9", Harvey Grant 6'8", LaPhonso Ellis 6'8", Antawn Jamison 6'8", Charles Oakley 6'8", Bernard King 6'7", Anthony Mason 6'7", Rodney Rogers 6'7", Glenn Robinson 6'7", Corliss Williamson 6'7", Charles Barkley 6'6", Larry Johnson 6'6", Clarence Weatherspoon 6'6"

These are not ALL of the defenders Jordan faced, however, these are merely the defenders who are noteworthy from the Jordan era.

Video of the top 50 perimeter defenders list:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX5Zy5Ms9I

Video of the top 50 interior defenders list:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cV2_Cr8GNo

TO LOOK AT A PLAYER'S CAREER, GO TO http://www.basketball-reference.com
You enter their name into the "search" bar at http://www.basketball-reference.com
Year by year, average NBA player height: (1987 tallest year in the NBA's history) http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2007.html

OK. Once again, players were not SHORTER during Jordan's career.

THE NBA WAS TALLER IN THE JORDAN ERA!
ALL NBA PLAYERS COMBINED, AVERAGE HEIGHT PER NBA PLAYER
YEAR HEIGHT
1985-86 6’ 7.36”
1986-87 6’ 7.62”
1987-88 6’ 7.38”
1988-89 6’ 7.31”
1989-90 6’ 7.09”
1990-91 6’ 7.16”
1991-92 6’ 7.04”
1992-93 6’ 7.06”
1993-94 6’ 7.34”
1994-95 6’ 7.19”
1995-96 6’ 7.27”
1996-97 6’ 7.20”
1997-98 6’ 7.11”
1998-99 6’ 7.10”
1999-00 6’ 7.26”
2000-01 6’ 7.03”
2001-02 6’ 7.26”
2002-03 6’ 7.40”
2003-04 6' 7.31"
2004-05 6' 7.26"
2005-06 6' 7.18"
2006-07 6' 6.93"
2007-08 6' 6.98"

Players are actually SHORTER now. Hello!!!!! Wake up



The game from 80 through 87 was fast paced but still incorporated physical play. The refs just tended to let a lot of it go. I hadn't looked up any numbers to back this up but my impression is the game was so much faster then because the refs didn't call fouls as much.

You wouldn't believe how much physicality was allowed in the playoffs back then. I watched a game from the 81 Finals last night and I kept saying to myself, "damn, they didn't call that???"

Watch any playoff game (especially Eastern Conference) from 81-84. There's a TON of physicality, especially down low. The 84 Finals and 85 Finals are also excellent examples of this. Physical ball, but the game flowed at such a good pace. Hardly any tv timeouts because there just weren't as many fouls called.

The late 80's started a shift toward more, harder fouls and less continuity with the arrival of the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons changed the way basketball was refereed. The Pistons took physicality to another level and incorporated fouls as part of the gameplan. They were an excellent defensive team, they went 8 and 9 deep, had lots of hard fouls to give and knew how to use them. They were the first time to use fouls as a way of INTIMIDATION. This is what Phil Jackson means when he calls them a "playground" type of team. They fouled so much, the refs couldn't possibly call it all or everyone would have fouled out by halftime. So the Pistons built a rep and the refs swallowed their whistles.

Plus I think there were a number of people that enjoyed seeing MJ face such a physical challenge every year. The league was already physical, but the Pistons beat down MJ enough to just be amazing (instead of phenomenally amazing) and they scared the rest of the Bulls sh*tless (excluding Charles Oakley).

The Pistons won 2 titles and provided a playbook on how to play Jordan and the rest of the league. By the early 90's no other team had a guy (with Larry and Magic both older, injured and/or retired) that could stare down Jordan in a 7 game playoff series. So most teams tried to incorporate the "Jordan Rules" in hopes of slowing MJ down and intimidating the rest of the Bulls. (Chuck Daly and Pat Riley talk about how playing physical was the only way to have a chance against the Bulls) The Knicks clearly were the best equipped team for this. A dominating big man, two bruising power forwards, tough physical guards and a deep bench, they were the perfect blueprint for this type of defense. Add in a Hall-Of-Fame coach who had already won 4 titles and you have a rivalry made in heaven. Once they established a rep as a physical team, the refs let them get away with murder. There were fouls in the regular season matchups that you don't see in today's playoff games.

Again, it was fascinating basketball to see the world's greatest player pushed to the limit physically and mentally. Other teams were becoming more physical as well. The league went through a period where everyone was used to seeing hard fouls and called it "playoff basketball". If you weren't physical, you were called soft (Cavs had this reputation in the early 90's even though they were more physical than they were given credit for).

Michael, Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, Shaq etc... all those guys were good enough to withstand the physicality and still play great basketball. The problem came when all these guys started to age and retire. The new kids weren't as good at playing top level basketball with the physical play. So the quality of games started to suffer. Games ending 81-79 or 76-74 turned off fans. Even MJ's last years as a Bull produced some underwhelming games (In the Finals vs the Jazz, games regularly ended with scores in the 80's). MJ was so captivating, fans still tuned in. After he retired in 98 most of the casual fans realized what the more astute ones knew all along -- Jordan was hiding some serious problems that the NBA was going to have to deal with.

A couple of years after MJ retired from the Bulls and several years of loss viewership, the league wanted perimeter players that could capture the heart of fans again. Shaq was the man, but big men have a hard time attracting as many fans as high scoring, high flying guards/forwards. And besides, there's only one Shaq. So the league decided to ease up the physicality on the perimeter so that guards can score more easily.

Now, every touch foul is called for the most part and it looks like the league is babying it's stars. We get the high scoring without the context. We'll see the 2004 Pistons, Spurs and the 2008 Celtics every once in a while, but they are a rarity nowdays. Most teams don't/can't play the defense seen from the 80's through early 90's. And the league doesn't want to go back because the quality of the product will diminish. There are some players that could excel under the old rules, but not enough of them to keep the quality (and viewership) up consistently.




Michael Jordan vs 1987-89 Atlanta Hawks defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V...

Michael Jordan vs Real Defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSM...

Michael Jordan vs 96 Seattle Supersonics defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5s...

Michael Jordan vs 87-88 Jazz defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zW...

Michael Jordan vs 95-97 Washington Bullets defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7...

Michael Jordan vs 1990-93 San Antonio Spurs defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-Bza...

Jordan rules
There weren't flagrant fouls in Jordan's era. Teams would just knock Jordan to the floor, and the referee's only option was to call a regular foul.

Handchecking
The NBA got rid of handchecking, this was to allow for easier driving to the basket and it free's up the ball handler. In Michael's era, they would double team him as soon as his shoulder dropped and he tried taking it to the hoop. It was legal to stop Jordan with your hands, not just your feet and position. Handchecking helped out less athletic defenders, who could make up for being half a step slow, by using their hands to hold the ball-handler at 'bay'.

Bigs waiting in the paint
In Michael's era, bigs had a right to 'airspace'. Now the rules are as such that bigs can't jump to block a dunk or layup because if they make contact, it's a foul. There was no 3 second rule so teams would clog the lane to take away MJ's 'above the rim attack'. In Jordan's day you could jump from inside of the circle, or wherever you wanted, and as long as you jumped straight up, and not into the ball-handler, it was not a foul. Much more physical brand of basketball was played in Michael Jordan's era.

Also now they allow ball-handlers to carry the basketball. As well as players like Kobe Bryant get more touch fouls now on the perimeter than any single player in the history of the sport. It is a changed game.

My favorite performances were when Jordan averaged over 41ppg vs the Phoenix Suns who had great players on their roster, top to bottom. He had one game of 55 points in that series. My other favorite performance was when Jordan put on a Magic Johnson type performance in the 1991 NBA Finals, Jordan averaged over 30 points per game, on over 55% shooting, but the amazing part was that Jordan averaged 11.4 assists per game in that series. Jordan also won a defensive player of the year award, among plenty of other accolades and unreachable records....

Michael Jordan's most important pieces to his legacy are his 14 mvps(3 all star, 6 finals, 5 league), the fact that he is the only guard in NBA history to LEAD his team to multi-championships with the absence of a dominant big man. Add in Jordan's 10 scoring titles, 30+ 6+ 6+ for his career in the NBA finals, greatest career ppg average in the regular season and playoffs, he surpassed Wilt as the greatest scorer ever over a cumulative amount of time with consistent dominance.

Jordan's importance to the game cannot be put into words, his epic legacy he left on the game will never be paralleled or surpassed.

Sssmush
06-10-2013, 05:22 PM
Being that large means squat. He's the best in the game, but he is no tough guy.

Lebron is super tough.

Just consider the Tiago Splitter block yesterday. The giant Splitter comes in for that dunk, Lebron meets him in mid-air and doesn't even budge. It's all about who's more balanced and solid 11 feet above the ground. Same thing when Lebron dunks, it's like a tank or a Harrier jumpjet going up.

If it was "bad boy" detroit days and Lebron was going up against them with anything goes... seriously, Lebron might've just ended somebody's career or something, like snapped off Laimbeer's arm and left it in the net, or come down on top of Rodman and broke both his legs, or collided with him and Rodman wakes up in the hospital 10 days later or something.

Lebron is 100% every bit the physical beast that Rodman was, and MORE, because he has the crazy hops and more speed. If Lebron just wanted to stop shooting altogether and become a rebounding defensive specialist he would easily lead the league in rebounds and be the DIY every year.

Sssmush
06-10-2013, 05:23 PM
All that being said, it's kinda funny that Rodman calls Lebron "average" and then Lebron goes out and scores 18 points on 35% shooting again. But this doesn't change the fact that Lebron would beat the **** out of the Detroit Bad Boys if he was unleashed on them.

akagiredsuns
06-10-2013, 06:53 PM
Notice that the people who disagree with Rodman in this thread for the most part were either too little to remember that era or not born at all so they go only by what they supposedly know? The reality is Rodman is right. This Heat team versus that Bulls team would be a no-brainer. Bulls would come out on top easily. Rod said the Heat have more talent, but the Bulls were smarter. He would decimate Bosh easily, that is a given, and Pippen's long arms would be a problem for LeBron on the outside shots. And who's gonna guard Jordan? Wade? LOL I would put Ron Harper on Wade and that takes care of that matchup. With all the flopping and crying the Cheat do, you'd be lucky to see them last a whole season without injuries.

LeBron as big as he is, would be on the ground going to the hole against guys like Laimbeer or Derrick Mason or Karl Malone, and even then it's no guarantee he'll get a call. LeBron came as Rodman said at a perfect time, when the league was becoming more prone to ticky-tack fouls (thanks a lot refs from Lakers/Kings 2002 ECF). The game was never the same after that. I would love to see the Bad Boy Pistons against this Heat team. Dumars on Wade, Rodman on Bosh, or even Rodman on James and let Laimbeer guard Bosh. Pistons in 5. I have little respect for the game now with all this flopping. It's a joke. Spoiled bratty superstars living and dying by the ref's whistle. These guys today are lucky they never got a piece of Malone, Barkley, prime Jordan & Pip or Olajuwon. That is why Dream Team I will destroy the best 10 players in the game today hands down. Rodman you called it.

akagiredsuns
06-10-2013, 06:57 PM
All that being said, it's kinda funny that Rodman calls Lebron "average" and then Lebron goes out and scores 18 points on 35% shooting again. But this doesn't change the fact that Lebron would beat the **** out of the Detroit Bad Boys if he was unleashed on them.

:facepalm: People who say things like this have no clue about the 80s/90s era. This will get you laughed out of PSD in no time flat. :laugh2:

R. Johnson#3
06-10-2013, 06:59 PM
I have to disagree with Rodman.

effen5
06-10-2013, 08:18 PM
There's about 5x better defenders than there was back then.

There were much better defenders in the 80s and 90s then there are now.

I don't think half the league plays defense or rebounds the ball anymore.

If Rodman was playing some of these teams, he would outrebound the team himself.

JC_
06-10-2013, 08:57 PM
There were much better defenders in the 80s and 90s then there are now.

I don't think half the league plays defense or rebounds the ball anymore.

If Rodman was playing some of these teams, he would outrebound the team himself.

If guys in todays NBA were able to play as aggressive as they did back then without refs whistles going crazy they would seem a lot better than they are now.

NYKalltheway
06-11-2013, 12:52 AM
If guys in todays NBA were able to play as aggressive as they did back then without refs whistles going crazy they would seem a lot better than they are now.

and offensively they'd be terrible compared to what you have today...