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View Full Version : So Jordan averaged 37 ppg without a 3 point shot?



Clippersfan86
06-07-2013, 11:39 AM
Which current players could average even 30 without a 3 point shot? Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Durant and Melo all average at least 3 ppg from deep. Jordan hit just 12 total 3's that year.

Hellcrooner
06-07-2013, 11:44 AM
how many points did the league teams average back then and how many do they do now?

adjust the pace.

BklynKnicks3
06-07-2013, 11:48 AM
that was a weak era of basketball. You had guys that werent even stars avg 25. Outside the lakers,celtics and pistons toward the end of the 90s the league was terrible. Scoring was way up the worst teams used to score 110 so obv pace higher

Minimal
06-07-2013, 11:51 AM
Being an incredible ballhog or simply have a faster pace?
Shooting 28 times a game and 12 FT a game?

D-Leethal
06-07-2013, 11:56 AM
Players don't operate in the mid range anymore. Its all about 3s and barreling to the rim. The space in between is pretty much irrelevant in todays game where it was relished in the past. I blame the way the game is called. The most efficient way to score is barreling the lane for touch fouls and players know they can attack like a madman and search for contact and get 2 points without even making a basketball play or legitimate shot attempt. Walt Frazier speaks on this all the time, shooting off the dribble is a lost art.

SpeeMN
06-07-2013, 12:02 PM
That was his second year in the league, so coaches didn't know just how good Jordan was yet. Also he played 40 minutes per game, and had some incredible defense. Defense and aggression is what brought him so many buckets. They made the playoffs as an 8th seed, and were swept by the Celtics. So they were not competing for a championship, and gave Jordan all the freedom in the world. GOAT

tredigs
06-07-2013, 12:06 PM
Your #2 has to be a guy like Charles Oakley (who had his career high in 18 seasons of 14.5 ppg that year as their 2nd leading scorer).

And although the pace was quicker then, those Bulls at a 95.8 were the slowest team in the league. They would rank somewhere in between the Rockets and Spurs in pace this season. Jordan did it by taking a lot of shots/hitting them with efficiency and getting to the rack A LOT and hitting his FT's with high efficiency when he was fouled (which was a lot).

He also put up 36/7/6 (albeit not as efficiently as the reg season) against the 87 Celtics in the playoffs - which is one of the GOAT dynasties. He could do it against anyone. It wasn't pace or a perceived lack of comp (lmao at that comment when talking about the late 80's).

Hellcrooner
06-07-2013, 12:16 PM
that was a weak era of basketball. You had guys that werent even stars avg 25. Outside the lakers,celtics and pistons toward the end of the 90s the league was terrible. Scoring was way up the worst teams used to score 110 so obv pace higher


yOu got no clue what you are talking bout.

USAF_AMMO
06-07-2013, 12:23 PM
that was a weak era of basketball. You had guys that werent even stars avg 25. Outside the lakers,celtics and pistons toward the end of the 90s the league was terrible. Scoring was way up the worst teams used to score 110 so obv pace higher

Really? Take a look at the scoring averages from 1995-2010 (below). I don't know about the higher pace, and I sure don't see any 110 averages....

2009-10 100.2
2008-09 99.95
2007-08 99.92
2006-07 98.7
2005-06 97.0
2004-05 97.2
2003-04 93.4
2002-03 95.1
2001-02 95.5
2000-01 94.8
1999-00 97.5
1998-99 91.6
1997-98 95.6
1996-97 96.9
1995-96 99.5
1994-95 101.4

Clippersfan86
06-07-2013, 12:39 PM
I understand tons of shot attempts, free throws etc but an,efficient 37 ppg when teams were WAY more physical? Sad that the post game and midrange jumper are dying. Like people above said seems like now it's only 3's or drive to the basket for touch fouls.

BklynKnicks3
06-07-2013, 12:41 PM
iam talkin about the 80s when jordan avg 37 not 95-2010
Really? Take a look at the scoring averages from 1995-2010 (below). I don't know about the higher pace, and I sure don't see any 110 averages....

2009-10 100.2
2008-09 99.95
2007-08 99.92
2006-07 98.7
2005-06 97.0
2004-05 97.2
2003-04 93.4
2002-03 95.1
2001-02 95.5
2000-01 94.8
1999-00 97.5
1998-99 91.6
1997-98 95.6
1996-97 96.9
1995-96 99.5
1994-95 101.4

BklynKnicks3
06-07-2013, 12:45 PM
the year jordan avg 37 no team avg less then 104 ppg most the league was 110 and 4 teams over 115

Raps18-19 Champ
06-07-2013, 12:47 PM
I would think Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Carmelo and many other great scorers can average mid to high 30's when they are taking 28 shots and being MJ superstar foul calls (MJ got way better treatment than Kobe, LEbron, Durant, etc to get to the line) during the 80's.

Chitownhero1992
06-07-2013, 12:55 PM
Yes it was a different type of a game as not many 3's were taking but Jordan was unstoppable, the only way to beat him was to make him shoot the long ball but he was just so good at getting to the basket better than anyone else ever.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 12:59 PM
Players don't operate in the mid range anymore. Its all about 3s and barreling to the rim. The space in between is pretty much irrelevant in todays game where it was relished in the past. I blame the way the game is called.
Why not blame the far bigger benefactor of this seemingly sacrilegious(thank you spell check) offense? The 3PT shot. Getting to the cup has always been relished, shots nearest to the hoop are still the most efficient arent they?

Its just, if you are not your teams best player, the best way for you to make an impact with jumpshots is to stretch D's all the way out out, and put it on the floor against the contest. Having a midrange jumper is more vital for stars IMO but that can vary depending on the players skill/talent.

Slashing has always been a part of the game, its not like the free throw attempts have risen because players have decided to ditch the midrange jumpshot into forays to the rim, what about, midrange jumpshots have been replaced by 3's?

If you look at the proportions of fta attempts taken per fga, its a steady curve when compare to the outright spike in rate of possessions ending with a 3. And its no coincidence that all the best teams are utilizing the shot. Modern game


The most efficient way to score is barreling the lane for touch fouls and players know they can attack like a madman and search for contact and get 2 points without even making a basketball play or legitimate shot attempt.
And yet very lil difference in the rate of ft attempts.....

FTA/FGA throughout history:

1979.232

(3pt line introduced)

1980: .235
1981: .245
1982: .241
1983: .233
1984: .255
1985: .252

1988: .254
1990: .250
1992: .232
1993: .243
1994: .232
---------- Hand Checking Augments
1995: .245

1996: .243

1998: .243

2000: .231
2001: .231
----------- Hand Checking Augment
2005: .245
2006: .248
2007: .246
2008: .231
2009: .236
2010: .228
2011: .229
2012: .208
2013: .204



WOW!
Until this very moment, I had not realized what a drastically low number of free throws we've seen of late.

This doesn't prove my point but it does lead us to ask why. Whats with the low rate of Free throws?



Walt Frazier speaks on this all the time, shooting off the dribble is a lost art.
I love Clyde but out of curiosity, have you read any of Frazier's books?

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 01:23 PM
how many points did the league teams average back then and how many do they do now?

adjust the pace.

bingo.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2013, 01:25 PM
Your #2 has to be a guy like Charles Oakley (who had his career high in 18 seasons of 14.5 ppg that year as their 2nd leading scorer).

And although the pace was quicker then, those Bulls at a 95.8 were the slowest team in the league. They would rank somewhere in between the Rockets and Spurs in pace this season. Jordan did it by taking a lot of shots/hitting them with efficiency and getting to the rack A LOT and hitting his FT's with high efficiency when he was fouled (which was a lot).

He also put up 36/7/6 (albeit not as efficiently as the reg season) against the 87 Celtics in the playoffs - which is one of the GOAT dynasties. He could do it against anyone. It wasn't pace or a perceived lack of comp (lmao at that comment when talking about the late 80's).

all true points. I don't know if anyone could average 35 without sacrificing efficiency now.

c.c.
06-07-2013, 01:42 PM
Players don't operate in the mid range anymore. Its all about 3s and barreling to the rim. The space in between is pretty much irrelevant in todays game where it was relished in the past. I blame the way the game is called. The most efficient way to score is barreling the lane for touch fouls and players know they can attack like a madman and search for contact and get 2 points without even making a basketball play or legitimate shot attempt. Walt Frazier speaks on this all the time, shooting off the dribble is a lost art.

Yeah I hate that

Chronz
06-07-2013, 01:46 PM
all true points. I don't know if anyone could average 35 without sacrificing efficiency now.

Kobe could/did

ewing
06-07-2013, 01:50 PM
Its b/c he was really good at scoring.

Kuya_Clive
06-07-2013, 01:51 PM
Its b/c he was really good at scoring.

Lol

tredigs
06-07-2013, 03:16 PM
Kobe could/did
True - Kobe did not sacrifice his own efficiency, but when Jordan averaged 35 like Kobe (MJ's 2nd highest), he did it getting to the line at about the same rate as Kobe (10.5 to 10.2) but shooting 3 less shots a game (and no 3's). Putting up 35 on 54% (60% TS) from the field like he did is All Time Great Center territory. Crazy when you consider he also lead the league in steals that season (3.2) and had 1.6 bpg (got the All D 1st team nod). 6 apg, too. That's a serious motor on both ends. Jordan was just vicious.

Bravo95
06-07-2013, 03:30 PM
Players don't operate in the mid range anymore. Its all about 3s and barreling to the rim. The space in between is pretty much irrelevant in todays game where it was relished in the past. I blame the way the game is called. The most efficient way to score is barreling the lane for touch fouls and players know they can attack like a madman and search for contact and get 2 points without even making a basketball play or legitimate shot attempt. Walt Frazier speaks on this all the time, shooting off the dribble is a lost art.
Al Horford. But yeah to everything else.

calmunderfireKO
06-07-2013, 04:48 PM
With the increased pace and more leniant rules Jordan could average 42 ppg if he hogged the ball in today's NBA.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 06:26 PM
With the increased pace and more leniant rules Jordan could average 42 ppg if he hogged the ball in today's NBA.
MJ was on the slowest paced team that particular year but even that would qualify as a fast pace team today.

D-Leethal
06-07-2013, 06:29 PM
Al Horford. But yeah to everything else.

I'm not talking anywhere near pick and pop basketball. I'm talking 1 on 1 off the dribble midrange game using fakes and footwork. Thats what offensive superstars used to do. Now they play the whistle and play to get fouled.

Kobe, Pierce, Melo all bring a little of that old school flavor in the mid range. Dirk to an extent. Not many else do.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 06:33 PM
True - Kobe did not sacrifice his own efficiency, but when Jordan averaged 35 like Kobe (MJ's 2nd highest), he did it getting to the line at about the same rate as Kobe (10.5 to 10.2) but shooting 3 less shots a game (and no 3's). Putting up 35 on 54% (60% TS) from the field like he did is All Time Great Center territory. Crazy when you consider he also lead the league in steals that season (3.2) and had 1.6 bpg (got the All D 1st team nod). 6 apg, too. That's a serious motor on both ends. Jordan was just vicious.

I would liken Kobe's 35PPG campaign more to MJ's 37 due to their identical usages.

I wasn't making any scientific observation, just a trend I believe exists in Kobe. MJ got even more efficient as his scoring load went down, Kobes seems to stagnate regardless of the load. Regardless, at no point is Kobe more efficient than MJ, but in terms of relative loss of efficiency, Kobe seems to have hit of plateau of efficiency with little gains or loss for it.

Chronz
06-07-2013, 06:35 PM
I'm not talking anywhere near pick and pop basketball. I'm talking 1 on 1 off the dribble midrange game using fakes and footwork. Thats what offensive superstars used to do. Now they play the whistle and play to get fouled.

Kobe, Pierce, Melo all bring a little of that old school flavor in the mid range. Dirk to an extent. Not many else do.

You must have loved Prime Tmac. Sport the sig

More-Than-Most
06-07-2013, 06:58 PM
I think there is much better all around defense in todays game than the 80s and 90s...Also most players now are athletic freaks of nature. Lebron is way to physically Gifted to have not been great in any era. He would still be a top 5 player in the 80s/90s

D-Leethal
06-07-2013, 07:03 PM
You must have loved Prime Tmac. Sport the sig

I must say that sig is dope as hell. I did enjoy watching TMac in his hey day. His 13 in 35 seconds is one of those moments I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing at the time. I was a huge Vince fan growing up starting with his UNC gig, so as I got older I always liked TMac. Still wish that TMac-Artest-Yao squad could have got a fair crack at it.