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View Full Version : Fans and Talking Heads are missing the point



harryharrison
06-03-2013, 12:52 PM
All I hear on the internet, ESPN, friends, twitter, etc. is the same stuff. LeBron needs help or that his turnovers were costly in game 2. The Heat need to get their act together, Wade and Bosh are struggling. Ray Allen isn't getting it done. The refs sucks. Etc.

They are missing the literal and figurative elephant in the room. The Pacers have a 7'2" Center and a 6'10" power forward. Both of them know what they are doing and they are taking it to the Heat. Offensively and Defensively. It's just that simple. No ifs or buts or excuses. The Heat are just getting consistently dominated by 2 bigs. Especially Hibbert.

It's why this series is 3-3. That and the often times excellent play from LeBron.

Slug3
06-03-2013, 12:58 PM
They had those same people last year when Miami won 4-2. Miami didn't have Bosh that series but maybe half a game and Wade was actually Wade. There size does hurt Miami, but Miami played that same front lineup last year. Not to say Hibbert didn't get better cause he did, but their size is not the problem.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:00 PM
They had those same people last year when Miami won 4-2. Miami didn't have Bosh that series but maybe half a game and Wade was actually Wade. There size does hurt Miami, but Miami played that same front lineup last year. Not to say Hibbert didn't get better cause he did, but their size is not the problem.

Their size is a problem. They are getting demolished on the boards. Hell if you don't want to say size is a problem then fine. The frontcourt of the Pacers is demolishing Miami.

In a 6 game sample size (this series) Hibbert and West have just totally owned the Heat.

The best team in the world can can get beat when this stuff happens.

smith&wesson
06-03-2013, 01:05 PM
the elephant in the room is that lebron joined wade and bosh to form a "super team" that doesn't look very super any more.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:08 PM
the elephant in the room is that lebron joined wade and bosh to form a "super team" that doesn't look very super any more.

Because the Pacers bigs are dominating the game. West and Hibbert are taking it to Bosh. Wade cannot dribble drive because Hibbert and West are in the paint.

Let's be real. Miami is getting owned by Hibbert and West.

NeverSayNevur
06-03-2013, 01:08 PM
No theyre not missing it. It's just better tabloid material to talk about the struggles of the Heat than the relative success of the Pacers.

Heediot
06-03-2013, 01:11 PM
They had those same people last year when Miami won 4-2. Miami didn't have Bosh that series but maybe half a game and Wade was actually Wade. There size does hurt Miami, but Miami played that same front lineup last year. Not to say Hibbert didn't get better cause he did, but their size is not the problem.

Size is their problem. the Mavs gave them fits when they won the title. Memphis beat em up in the regular season as well. Even in Orlando they had a hard time with Dwight.

2-ONE-5
06-03-2013, 01:12 PM
Because the Pacers bigs are dominating the game. West and Hibbert are taking it to Bosh. Wade cannot dribble drive because Hibbert and West are in the paint.

Let's be real. Miami is getting owned by Hibbert and West.

or bcuz Wade is cearly hurt and far from 100%. Paul George doesnt have anything to with the series being tied? its a compelte team effort from the Pacers

Heediot
06-03-2013, 01:14 PM
This is why MJ is better than LBJ. Both guys don't have a dominant big man, bosh is like a SF playing PF/C, but MJ knew how to win despite that. In the 90's he had to go through a lot of dominant bigs to get to his titles.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:16 PM
or bcuz Wade is cearly hurt and far from 100%. Paul George doesnt have anything to with the series being tied? its a compelte team effort from the Pacers

Wade is not 3-11 bad. He's not 14 ppg bad. The Pacers bigs are absolutely taking it to the Heat.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2013, 01:20 PM
Wade is not 3-11 bad. He's not 14 ppg bad. The Pacers bigs are absolutely taking it to the Heat.

explain why Wade was so bad against the Bucks and Bulls

smith&wesson
06-03-2013, 01:31 PM
here's the thing about wade.... when he has a bad game or series or season it's because he is not 100%.

if your that hurt, don't play... If your gonna play stop making excuses. The guys always hurt when he has a bad game. as if good players never have bad games. Give me a break. He is injury prone and he needs to be traded if lebron doesn't want to do it all himself. Cuz right now he might as well be on the cavs.

I want the pacers to win. Love Paul George.. Op is right hibbert has gone beast mode and the pacers are showing the rest of the league that the old traditional way of building a team still works. U don't have to join forces with the enemy to win.

Slug3
06-03-2013, 01:37 PM
Size is their problem. the Mavs gave them fits when they won the title. Memphis beat em up in the regular season as well. Even in Orlando they had a hard time with Dwight.

That's not why the Mavs beat them. They beat them with ball movement and making the open jumper.

Also Miami has held their own with the boards and points in the paint this series as well.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:42 PM
Everything else is still just tabloid stuff. The Pacers are playing game 7 because their bigs have gone beast mode. It just is.

tredigs
06-03-2013, 01:46 PM
They had those same people last year when Miami won 4-2. Miami didn't have Bosh that series but maybe half a game and Wade was actually Wade. There size does hurt Miami, but Miami played that same front lineup last year. Not to say Hibbert didn't get better cause he did, but their size is not the problem.

Hibbert's been playing 6+ more mpg in these playoffs than he was last season and his efficiency is up. He's definitely taking on his new/larger role nicely in this post-season, and there's no doubt that him + West are causing Miami extreme havoc.

To act like it's just that is obviously silly though. Clearly Wade is not the same player that he was in the post-season last year, and that probably has more to do with himself than it does the opposition (that said, he wasn't nearly as bad in the prior 2 series and they got a nice layoff for rest going into this one). We've seen a healthy Wade thrash defenses of this caliber before, and that was as a #1. Obviously he is not playing up to his standards, whether it's injury or not. Bosh is embarrassing himself out there, that much is for sure. No excuses for him as he's much quicker than Hibbert and has the ability to stretch him out (no-homo ; ).

The media will run with the juicier story (Miami's big 3 in turmoil), but I think most fans realize that it's a combination of all these different factors.

harryharrison
06-03-2013, 01:51 PM
Hibbert's been playing 6+ more mpg in these playoffs than he was last season and his efficiency is up. He's definitely taking on his new/larger role nicely in this post-season, and there's no doubt that him + West are causing Miami extreme havoc.

To act like it's just that is obviously silly though. Clearly Wade is not the same player that he was in the post-season last year, and that probably has more to do with himself than it does the opposition (that said, he wasn't nearly as bad in the prior 2 series and they got a nice layoff for rest going into this one). We've seen a healthy Wade thrash defenses of this caliber before, and that was as a #1. Obviously he is not playing up to his standards, whether it's injury or not. Bosh is embarrassing himself out there, that much is for sure. No excuses for him as he's much quicker than Hibbert and has the ability to stretch him out (no-homo ; ).

The media will run with the juicier story (Miami's big 3 in turmoil), but I think most fans realize that it's a combination of all these different factors.

Of course it's a combination. But I'm going with the domination by Indianas bigs is by far the most decisive variable in this series.

Most championship teams are big man dominated in the NBA. I don't care what century.

ztilzer31
06-03-2013, 02:17 PM
Hibbert and West are good don't get me wrong, and this might be Hibbert's coming out party. I think Pacers fans would agree that he's never looked more focused at any point of his career.

That being said Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh are too good offensively to get "shut down". They're struggling, and it's not just because of Hibber, and West. They're struggling defensively as well. They're not playing very good perimeter defense as well. Dwyane has been a liability on both ends of the floor at times. They have to play 48 mins of defense to beat the Pacers, and not let West, and Hibbert get the ball down low. The heat have the speed and length to make it difficult for Indiana, but so far they're getting owned.

I think the Heat will win game 7, but not if it's all LBJ. They need someone to step up on defense, and offense. Battier/Allen need to hit some 3's. They're without a doubt the better team, but they're playing like ****.

Pacerlive
06-03-2013, 02:23 PM
They had those same people last year when Miami won 4-2. Miami didn't have Bosh that series but maybe half a game and Wade was actually Wade. There size does hurt Miami, but Miami played that same front lineup last year. Not to say Hibbert didn't get better cause he did, but their size is not the problem.

Meh,
West being healthy is also apart of it. Lance rebounding also is apart of it and Wade being hurt and also guarding PG most of the game is apart of it.

Miami won 4-2 last year with a tremendous effort from Wade but I think you are seeing he doesn't have it like he use to. He got his knee drained last year and got a pep talk from Creen then he was off to the races. This year everyone thought it would be the same but he is old and the Pacers bigs and smalls are better than they were last year. I should also mention Granger got hurt last year as well so that 4-2 is not indicative of a healthy Pacer squad.

The other difference that most on here don't know about is that Shaw instilled some old Laker movement with the bigs to free them up from the fronting that the Heat did last year. We move or bigs differently and your seeing deeper position from Hibbert as a result.

Make no mistake though Hibbert going vertical and focusing on that aspect of his game is making Wade look foolish and hesitant.

Lo Porto
06-03-2013, 02:48 PM
Miami has been poorly put together the whole time. All of their talent is at SG and SF (LeBron, Wade, Battier, Miller, Allen and even Bosh who plays like a SF in all reality). Year in and year out contenders need strength in the post and either threats or defenders at PG. The post players and PG's don't have to be stars, but they have to know their role. They need more of a Horace Grant or Derek Fisher than an undersized Birdman/Joel Anthony or tweener Mario Chalmers. It's amazing to me that they are contenders these last three years.

Pacerlive
06-03-2013, 02:53 PM
Of course it's a combination. But I'm going with the domination by Indianas bigs is by far the most decisive variable in this series.

Most championship teams are big man dominated in the NBA. I don't care what century.

You can not lose the rebounding battle by nearly 20 and expect to win most NBA games. The Pacers bigs do just that to the Heat but on top of that the PG and Lance also can put up double digit rebounds so even when they don't score they impact the game. At this point I think Bosh is so far in the hole mentally he doesn't know what to do and I don't think its entirely his fault. He is a face up pf and he has been reduced to a ineffective stretch center who can go Steve Novak on you.

He has expanded his game to fit a role but by doing so he has lost his identity that got him to be a great pf. At this point I don't expect him to return until next year and Wade needs a hyperbaric chamber for a couple of months to rejuvenate his game. At this point win or lose I don't see them repeating.

Lo Porto
06-03-2013, 02:58 PM
The Heat would have been better off signing Nazr Mohammed or Brendan Haywood than signing some of the other guys in recent years. It's always smart to have that true big man just in case you come across a Dwight, Hibbert or Gasol type player. Joel Anthony and Birdman do nothing to wear down Hibbert throughout the game.

JasonJohnHorn
06-03-2013, 02:59 PM
You are right.... Paul George deserves some credit here to, as well as Vogel, but bottom line, with Hibbert and West in the post, this series would have been a sweep is LBJ wasn't playing at an MVP level through the series.

Everybody knew Miami's shortcomings though. They make up for their lack of size with their three-point shooting and Wade's play. If those aren't there... their lack of size is too much to overcome.

Burgo
06-03-2013, 03:06 PM
Agree with what you're saying entirely. The Pacers are not getting the headlines and the credit even though they should be.

You can bet that if Indy wins tonight, the photos in the sports sections of tomorrow's newspapers will all be pictures of LeBron and Wade hanging their heads.

It's because of Miami being the super-team with a world of expectation on them that the media knows that Miami losing a series is much more interesting than the Pacers winning one. Sad, but true.

Heediot
06-03-2013, 03:27 PM
That's not why the Mavs beat them. They beat them with ball movement and making the open jumper.

Also Miami has held their own with the boards and points in the paint this series as well.

The offense stems from feeding Dirk and him drawing the double team. It's because he commands their respect that they can move the ball better and get easier looks. Defensively, Chandler was a stud anchor for them. Like Hibbert he can alter shot and forcing lower percentage plays.

KingPosey
06-03-2013, 03:32 PM
I didn't know David West was 6'10"

valade16
06-03-2013, 03:45 PM
This is why MJ is better than LBJ. Both guys don't have a dominant big man, bosh is like a SF playing PF/C, but MJ knew how to win despite that. In the 90's he had to go through a lot of dominant bigs to get to his titles.

This is a premature post for a couple of reasons.

1 is that LeBron and Miami might beat the Pacers tonight in game 7 and the argument that MJ knew how to win despite not having a dominant bigman while LeBron does not goes out the window.

2 is that MJ and the Bulls struggled the most against teams that had dominant big men. The Knicks pushed the Bulls in incredibly physical and tightly contested playoff series and the only team MJ had a losing record against with Chicago was Hakeem Olajuwan and the Rockets.

Heediot
06-04-2013, 08:52 AM
This is a premature post for a couple of reasons.

1 is that LeBron and Miami might beat the Pacers tonight in game 7 and the argument that MJ knew how to win despite not having a dominant bigman while LeBron does not goes out the window.

2 is that MJ and the Bulls struggled the most against teams that had dominant big men. The Knicks pushed the Bulls in incredibly physical and tightly contested playoff series and the only team MJ had a losing record against with Chicago was Hakeem Olajuwan and the Rockets.

1. Hibbert is not HOF caliber, or even dominant. He's had a beastly series against a favourable opponent, which makes him appear to be dominant. With more consistency maybe he still has the potential to be dominant. Jordan's era was the golden age of bigs.

2. Maybe the early 90's Bulls struggled against NY. When Jordan came back after baseball, the bulls were pretty dominant in the playoffs.